Scatter Plots for Beginners

[rbabos]

I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later.  I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part.
Ron

[FLTRI]

I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later.  I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part.
Ron

How do you see a lean area?
Bob

[Coyote]

Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. 

[rbabos]

I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later.  I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part.
Ron

How do you see a lean area?
Bob

What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess based on how low the front ve table is in that area compared to surrounding cells and how much smoothness improved by adding 3% to those low cells in the front. Note the kpa line. Two bits of info in that area. Front cyl is one but there's another small issue to both once the front and rear IPW spread is corrected. It is minor and could be left as is. Can you see it?
I'm still fumbling around with Megalog but so far I like it.
Ron

[rbabos]

Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. 

Yup, I purposely ran that suspect area over and over to see repeats. Like clockwork it showed the same effect each time during that run. I did the MAP X RPM also. Speaking which, what's the difference between that and MAPXRPM other then the numbers change at the bottom?
Ron

[Coyote]

Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. 

Yup, I purposely ran that suspect area over and over to see repeats. Like clockwork it showed the same effect each time during that run. I did the MAP X RPM also. Speaking which, what's the difference between that and MAPXRPM other then the numbers change at the bottom?
Ron

Ha, I asked the same question. There is no difference. Not sure why it's in there twice. Maybe some users got used to it written each way so they support both?

I missed where the numbers change. I'll have to look at that.

[Coyote]

Andy texted me and says the second one was a mistake. The numerical diff is the decimal place is moved over two places. One will eventually be removed as the software is updated.

[rbabos]

Andy texted me and says the second one was a mistake. The numerical diff is the decimal place is moved over two places. One will eventually be removed as the software is updated.

Thanks.
Ron

[FLTRI]

What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron

I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob

[rbabos]

What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron

I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob

And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron

[FLTRI]

What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron

I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob

And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron

No point, just asking. You state the rear is a hair lean and the front is leaner than the rear.
But you also stated earlier you were guessing at the AFR. "What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess"
Since you know no tune can be perfect I assume you have no complaint with the run quality but you have a new toy to mess with?
If you make a change to the tune and actually feel it run better can you assume the tune was that close?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bob, read your very own sig.  How does anyone know when the tune is "Perfect".  Is the next tweak a "Little More Perfect"?  What is close enough?   

The guy has a new toy and he is enjoying learning.  I just hope he is willing to share what he learns.

Andy

[rbabos]

What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron

I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob

And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron

No point, just asking. You state the rear is a hair lean and the front is leaner than the rear.
But you also stated earlier you were guessing at the AFR. "What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess"
Since you know no tune can be perfect I assume you have no complaint with the run quality but you have a new toy to mess with?
If you make a change to the tune and actually feel it run better can you assume the tune was that close?
Bob

Keep in mind this area is transitional and the bike rarely gets ridden there in steady state. It's low rpm high load puts it in a state of what many would call lugging. I first saw it in transition in the log so went hunting for it in steady state to be sure. The transition state is so brief no running issues show up. I just want it to run perfect there also, not that I will visit that area much afterwards. I see it, I want to fix it, that's all.
Like Andy said, I found a new toy to play with to further refine what I have.
Ron

[Coyote]

Based on your plot and comments, I would have said it was lean on both cyl in that area.

[rbabos]

Based on your plot and comments, I would have said it was lean on both cyl in that area.

Correct. That's how I see it as well.  So, we are both reading this correctly or we are both wrong.  I do know the root cause of this, confirmation, and solution.
Ron

[rbabos]

Just got this log from a member with a v rod. Now, I'm as green as they come to reading this but what I see, it looks pretty damn fine and coming along nicely . Only 3 brief runs with TT.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

When looking at MAP vs RPM plots with a target tune bike, at first I bet the AFF would be best as the color to see how how close the base VE numbers are.

Keep in mind that the Vrod and Sportster tunes are TPS based tuning so you  really need TPS vs RPM and AFF as the color to tune them.

I tend to filter out when the target RPM is greater than the full warm idle.  I also toss out transitions by looking at the AE and DE values.  I can post the filter I use in a couple of days when I get back home.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

I was messing around this evening and came up with a way to get a trace that shows what gear you are in on a log.

I created a field named Shift and defined it as

[VSS]<6?-11.6:sqrt([RPM]/[VSS])>11.6?-11.6:-1*sqrt([RPM]/[VSS])

At the bottom of this plot, you can see the result in red.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Gear%20Changes.png

Andy

[whittlebeast]

OK, I get it, I am a bit of a Geek and spend lots of time looking for patterns.  I was wondering what I could see with this new "Shift" function.  The first screen shot is off of my sporty running around town, doing some TT tuning.  Blue dots are first gear and red is 5th gear.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png

Notice on the right plot that a big section of the MAP vs RPM plot is almost only seen in first gear.  Almost never seen in any other gear.

So then I started to wonder what this would look like on data coming from a friend tat runs the crud out of his Big Twin.  This guy happens to be in Europe so the speeds are in KPA.  No big deal....

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png

Notice how much time he spends at near 100 KPA between 2100 and 3400 RPM in 5th and 6th gear.

Here it is with color representing Hits or a high percentage of time.  It is clear where in the power band this guy needs to have a near perfect tune.  Very different than mine.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20Hits.png

I may have an addiction....  What can I say?

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a scatter plot showing where he spends most of his riding time on the left compared to where he is in closed loop shown on the right as yellow.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20in%20Closed%20Loop.png

Andy

[whittlebeast]

And one more comparison. 

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Lambda%20Target%20vs%20Closed%20Loop%20Active.png

ClosedLoopActiveFront was defined with the simple formula

[Front CLI]=100?0:.5

[whittlebeast]

Here is data from my Sporty from about 2.5 hours of riding.  All this data is all on the same tune.  A little bit of all sorts of riding.  Note that his is a TPS based fueling calibration.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Front.png

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Rear.png

That is about as tight of AFR control as you can expect to get on a wobble fire, Y intake manifold, port injected motor.  Check out the center plots and how close to linear they both are.  Note that this motor was never been on a dyno as all tuning was done with data logging and Autotuning.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Open all four of these logs at the same time to see the raw data in MegaLogViewer HD.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyTTLogs.zip

[whittlebeast]

My Cal is a TPS based fuel map.  I like to look at fueling MAP based.  My motor also has Adaptive Fueling turned off.  All fuel corrections are done on the Closed Loop Interrogators and are logged as Front CLI and Rear CLI.  These are the two viewed that I look at for looking for clear trends as to where I need to make corrections in the fuel maps.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Front.png

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Rear.png

A clearly red area indicated I am about 1 AFR lean or about 7% lean.  A clearly blue area indicated I am about 1 AFR rich or about 7% rich.  Keep in mind that all adjustments need to be made on the right plot as that is how the fueling is set up in my Cal.  The big twin guys get to do fueling corrections on the left side plots.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

[rbabos]

What does this mean?
Ron