Smack-A-Hoe 124

[N-gin]

Awesome progress
Glad to hear the crank is well.

[turboprop]

Made some progress this weekend.

- Replaced the bent mains shaft, along with new ceramic bearings throughout the transmission.
- Mounted the NOS inner primary case.
- Cleaned and prepped everything for the next shop day.

The clutch consists of a Barnett branded Evolution basket, Bandit Sportman clutch w/new center hub & 10-plate pack. The front sprocket is from Twin Power/Vulcan and the new chain is from RK. Not really visible are the billet inspection cover and shift tube from Vulcan, ARP 12pt hardware, RedLine shock proof transmission oil and Redline primary case oil.

I feel confident with this setup.

Update: Very strange. I buttoned everything up a couple days ago, went out riding, new setup is fantastic. Really. Love the solid front sprocket. But I will get back to that in a bit. So, there was a small leak, me being a fanatic, I tore right into it. This is where the strange part comes in. The Redline fluid came out black, as in blacker than black. This is after hundred miles or so. The stuff went in almost clear with a slight reddish tint. Everything in the primary was either new out of the box or had been hot tanked. The new RK chain, Trim Power/Vulcan fixed sprocket and Evo Ind basket were the only components that had not gone through the hot tank. Very strange. I mean BLACK. Unlike any primary fluid of any mileage that I have ever seen.

Back the new setup. Love the fixed front sprocket. Not sure why I waited so long to get one. Shifted smoother, if thats possible. Finding neutral was effortless. Any clunk that was there before is gone now. Could not detect any difference in felt vibrations, Heck, I even think the lifter made less noise. Hahaha, not really but had to get poke some of you.

The new 10 plate clutch pack from Bandit is the BOMB! As per guidance, I dropped a bunch of spring pressure and it held just fine.  Love it.

When I button up this time the Redline primary fluid will be replaced with some type of ATF. Whatever I have in the garage. Just to clean everything out.

As for the leaks, my guess is some RTV around the bolt holes where the engine mates with the primary will stop them.

[mrmike]

I opted out on the RTV when I pulled my inner primary I used 2 Locktite products one was a thread sealer for the inner primary bolts.

The others name I can't recall and I'm on duty so I can't go to the toolbox and check,lol

Both worked perfectly with no leaks, I'll post the name tomorrow but I imagine you may already be familiar with it.

I like Locktite products a lot.

Mike

[Ohio HD]

Ed. the clutch pressure, just curious how much by feel does it feel as reduced? Also curious as to the actual spring or shim changes.

[turboprop]

I opted out on the RTV when I pulled my inner primary I used 2 Locktite products one was a thread sealer for the inner primary bolts.

The others name I can't recall and I'm on duty so I can't go to the toolbox and check,lol

Both worked perfectly with no leaks, I'll post the name tomorrow but I imagine you may already be familiar with it.

I like Locktite products a lot.

Mike

You do know that sealing the threads of the bolts that secure the inner primary to the engine case doesnt really seal anything, right?

There is no fluid inside the engine case to come out. The fluid is in the primary case and leaks around the bolts and between the engine and inner primary cases. The threaded portion of the bolt inside the engine case really seals nothing in this application.

I simply cut a cover and got caught. Many years of dealing with For inner primary leaks has taught me to be almost surgically clean, to press the new seals in as square as possible and tot he correct depth, to pack them with grease, and to put a light bead of RTV around each of the bolt holes on the engine and trans mission cases before slipping on the inner primary. I skipped the RTV step and got called on it.

I just put the inner primary back on, called it a night. Will button this up tomorrow and see if its sealed or not. 

[turboprop]

Ed. the clutch pressure, just curious how much by feel does it feel as reduced? Also curious as to the actual spring or shim changes.

I forget which springs are in the bandit, they are all the same not mixed and matched. There were three shims under each of the springs. On the advice of Bandit, I removed all of the shims. Seems to be working. The clutch lever on this bike is now really really light. But its not apples to apples with what most harley riders have as this has a hydraulic clutch that consists of a Brembo RCS (Radial 19mm) master cylinder, Galfer GP hydraulic line and a 1.5" slave cylinder. Not typical Harley stuff.

As much as I like the Bandit clutch, how much torque it can hold, etc, I have to shift to some sort of variable pressure clutch in order to launch this bike as hard as I would like and not flip it over. A little AIM isn't going to do it, and I dont have a good feeling for the Barnett street stuff. Will probably end up with a full on Bandit Super Clutch with an MTC variable plate and a hacked up primary cover.

[Ohio HD]

Ed. the clutch pressure, just curious how much by feel does it feel as reduced? Also curious as to the actual spring or shim changes.

I forget which springs are in the bandit, they are all the same not mixed and matched. There were three shims under each of the springs. On the advice of Bandit, I removed all of the shims. Seems to be working. The clutch lever on this bike is now really really light. But its not apples to apples with what most harley riders have as this has a hydraulic clutch that consists of a Brembo RCS (Radial 19mm) master cylinder, Galfer GP hydraulic line and a 1.5" slave cylinder. Not typical Harley stuff.

As much as I like the Bandit clutch, how much torque it can hold, etc, I have to shift to some sort of variable pressure clutch in order to launch this bike as hard as I would like and not flip it over. A little AIM isn't going to do it, and I dont have a good feeling for the Barnett street stuff. Will probably end up with a full on Bandit Super Clutch with an MTC variable plate and a hacked up primary cover.

Yes I agree, hydraulic may have a different linear drop in pressure compared to a cable. But adding that additional disc and them telling you take the shims out sounds promising as far as lever pressure drop.

I need another heavy duty clutch as I'm putting my 117 from the bench to my '09 bike. I may try a Bandit with the additional disc in the 124 bike, and move the Scorpion in it over to the 117.

[Jonny Cash]

[/quote]
. A little AIM isn't going to do it, and I dont have a good feeling for the Barnett street stuff. Will probably end up with a full on Bandit Super Clutch with an MTC variable plate and a hacked up primary cover.
[/quote]

I just went with the Superclutch with MTC.  It will take some fiddling with, but I think it will do the trick. I've never had a clutch that drops in neutral as easy as this, and no stationary drag on it like with the Barnett I had.  I couldn't run the extra disc with the MTC, because you have to maintain an airgap between the lockup fingers and the pressure plate of .100-.125 for it to work correctly.  It does allow for running much less static spring, my lever pull is less than my stock roadglide.  Both are hydraulic units.

[turboprop]

. A little AIM isn't going to do it, and I dont have a good feeling for the Barnett street stuff. Will probably end up with a full on Bandit Super Clutch with an MTC variable plate and a hacked up primary cover.
[/quote]

I just went with the Superclutch with MTC.  It will take some fiddling with, but I think it will do the trick. I've never had a clutch that drops in neutral as easy as this, and no stationary drag on it like with the Barnett I had.  I couldn't run the extra disc with the MTC, because you have to maintain an airgap between the lockup fingers and the pressure plate of .100-.125 for it to work correctly.  It does allow for running much less static spring, my lever pull is less than my stock roadglide.  Both are hydraulic units.
[/quote]

Right on! This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for. That looks like a '94-'06 style inner primary case. How did you solve the outer cover clearance issue?

[HD/Wrench]

Made some progress this weekend.

- Replaced the bent mains shaft, along with new ceramic bearings throughout the transmission.
- Mounted the NOS inner primary case.
- Cleaned and prepped everything for the next shop day.

The clutch consists of a Barnett branded Evolution basket, Bandit Sportman clutch w/new center hub & 10-plate pack. The front sprocket is from Twin Power/Vulcan and the new chain is from RK. Not really visible are the billet inspection cover and shift tube from Vulcan, ARP 12pt hardware, RedLine shock proof transmission oil and Redline primary case oil.

I feel confident with this setup.

Update: Very strange. I buttoned everything up a couple days ago, went out riding, new setup is fantastic. Really. Love the solid front sprocket. But I will get back to that in a bit. So, there was a small leak, me being a fanatic, I tore right into it. This is where the strange part comes in. The Redline fluid came out black, as in blacker than black. This is after hundred miles or so. The stuff went in almost clear with a slight reddish tint. Everything in the primary was either new out of the box or had been hot tanked. The new RK chain, Trim Power/Vulcan fixed sprocket and Evo Ind basket were the only components that had not gone through the hot tank. Very strange. I mean BLACK. Unlike any primary fluid of any mileage that I have ever seen.

Back the new setup. Love the fixed front sprocket. Not sure why I waited so long to get one. Shifted smoother, if thats possible. Finding neutral was effortless. Any clunk that was there before is gone now. Could not detect any difference in felt vibrations, Heck, I even think the lifter made less noise. Hahaha, not really but had to get poke some of you.

The new 10 plate clutch pack from Bandit is the BOMB! As per guidance, I dropped a bunch of spring pressure and it held just fine.  Love it.

When I button up this time the Redline primary fluid will be replaced with some type of ATF. Whatever I have in the garage. Just to clean everything out.

As for the leaks, my guess is some RTV around the bolt holes where the engine mates with the primary will stop them.

Did the fluid have any odd smell or just a color change? 

[turboprop]

Made some progress this weekend.

- Replaced the bent mains shaft, along with new ceramic bearings throughout the transmission.
- Mounted the NOS inner primary case.
- Cleaned and prepped everything for the next shop day.

The clutch consists of a Barnett branded Evolution basket, Bandit Sportman clutch w/new center hub & 10-plate pack. The front sprocket is from Twin Power/Vulcan and the new chain is from RK. Not really visible are the billet inspection cover and shift tube from Vulcan, ARP 12pt hardware, RedLine shock proof transmission oil and Redline primary case oil.

I feel confident with this setup.

Update: Very strange. I buttoned everything up a couple days ago, went out riding, new setup is fantastic. Really. Love the solid front sprocket. But I will get back to that in a bit. So, there was a small leak, me being a fanatic, I tore right into it. This is where the strange part comes in. The Redline fluid came out black, as in blacker than black. This is after hundred miles or so. The stuff went in almost clear with a slight reddish tint. Everything in the primary was either new out of the box or had been hot tanked. The new RK chain, Trim Power/Vulcan fixed sprocket and Evo Ind basket were the only components that had not gone through the hot tank. Very strange. I mean BLACK. Unlike any primary fluid of any mileage that I have ever seen.

Back the new setup. Love the fixed front sprocket. Not sure why I waited so long to get one. Shifted smoother, if thats possible. Finding neutral was effortless. Any clunk that was there before is gone now. Could not detect any difference in felt vibrations, Heck, I even think the lifter made less noise. Hahaha, not really but had to get poke some of you.

The new 10 plate clutch pack from Bandit is the BOMB! As per guidance, I dropped a bunch of spring pressure and it held just fine.  Love it.

When I button up this time the Redline primary fluid will be replaced with some type of ATF. Whatever I have in the garage. Just to clean everything out.

As for the leaks, my guess is some RTV around the bolt holes where the engine mates with the primary will stop them.

Did the fluid have any odd smell or just a color change?

You know, after thinking about this some more, the dark color may be a result of the moly grease that Bandit provides for use on the main shaft.

To answer your question, no odd smell, just the color change.

[HD/Wrench]

I have seen that as well , . That grease will change the color or the fluid and it does not take much to do it.   Have seen anti seize make you think that there is a major issue as well . When one did not exist

[Jonny Cash]

much less static spring, my lever pull is less than my stock roadglide.  Both are hydraulic units.
[/quote]

Right on! This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for. That looks like a '94-'06 style inner primary case. How did you solve the outer cover clearance issue?
[/quote]


The Barnett outer cover clears it, I got a used one from Barnett.  They don't make them anymore but they are out there.  I'd check with them and see, they scrounged around and found me one.  I have also seen one listed on a dragbike facebook page.  I think someone made them for Barnett, I know they farm out their baskets so they may be available from whoever cut them originally.  If I did my own, I'd do a bigger derby  cover so the pack could be changed without outer removal.  The superclutch is bigger diameter than a Barnett clutch, The Barnett could be changed without removing the outer

[HD/Wrench]

Jonny

I think Evolution was doing it .. I could be wrong but for some reason that sticks in my mind ..  A quick call to Chase at barnett would clear that up .

[No Cents]

  I talked to Chance @ Barnett last year and he said he could put me together one of those extended outer primary covers to run a MTC lock up. He said he wasn't selling them any longer...but he had everything he needed around the shop to make me one if I wanted one. That was for my 08 bagger. I'm not sure if he had the pieces to do one for a FXR.
  Ed...that moly grease that Bandit sends will make your head swim when you see the primary fluid come out the first few times. I noticed on my 3rd change of primary fluid that the blackness went away.

Kelly...sweet set up! 

[turboprop]

I had a brand new Barnett billet cover, but sold it two summers ago when I was laid off. Dam it.

[Ohio HD]

Is the need for ore room only through the derby cover, or a larger area? Jim Kennedy had an extension made for his primary at the derby cover opening to gain room. He also told me that T-Man was marketing a similar cover.

[Jonny Cash]

Is the need for ore room only through the derby cover, or a larger area? Jim Kennedy had an extension made for his primary at the derby cover opening to gain room. He also told me that T-Man was marketing a similar cover.

For me just through the derby cover, my Barnett pressure plate would come out through it, the Superclutch won't. I can fiddle with  springs and weights, just cant service the pack like before

[turboprop]

Is the need for ore room only through the derby cover, or a larger area? Jim Kennedy had an extension made for his primary at the derby cover opening to gain room. He also told me that T-Man was marketing a similar cover.

This cover extension is very interesting. That five-hole outer cover is laid out very differently from the earlier 3-hole cover. Somehow the inspection cover on the 5-hole version is centered more evenly over the clutch. Unfortunately, the '94 and up inner case with the hole for the FXR mid shifter is extremely rare. Have one on my current For project but have reservations about using it as when it breaks (and it will) a replacement will be very hard (and expensive) to locate. No free munches thats for sure.

[Ohio HD]

Is the need for ore room only through the derby cover, or a larger area? Jim Kennedy had an extension made for his primary at the derby cover opening to gain room. He also told me that T-Man was marketing a similar cover.

This cover extension is very interesting. That five-hole outer cover is laid out very differently from the earlier 3-hole cover. Somehow the inspection cover on the 5-hole version is centered more evenly over the clutch. Unfortunately, the '94 and up inner case with the hole for the FXR mid shifter is extremely rare. Have one on my current For project but have reservations about using it as when it breaks (and it will) a replacement will be very hard (and expensive) to locate. No free munches thats for sure.

And I keep forgetting that your cover is three hole.     

[Nastytls]

Out of curiosity, what is different about this clutch? Is it just additional bite/strength or something else entirely? Is the "MTC" part just added to the pressure plate of an existing Bandit clutch?

[turboprop]

Out of curiosity, what is different about this clutch? Is it just additional bite/strength or something else entirely? Is the "MTC" part just added to the pressure plate of an existing Bandit clutch?

Not sure which clutch you are referring two as there are two different clutches being discussed here; the Bandit Sportsman and the Bandit Super Clutch.

The Sportsman drops into existing oem or oem replacement style baskets. Its a typical six-coil spring setup with an increased surface area compared to the oem harley units.

The Super Clutch, with or without the MTC lockup unit is a totally different design that uses a billet steel basket and larger everything. The MTC variable pressure hat is optional. Not good for most street riders that use the hand clutch to operate. Good for racers and others that have air or electric shifters where the hand clutch is used only during the launch and stopping.

[HD/Wrench]

Ed

This guy was making some harley parts several years ago. Not sure if it wen very far but maybe a call to him . Billet outer cover was what i heard. Again second hand info but it might be worth a shot . He is a metric guy but has all the items needed to make just about anything .
http://rocksolidmfg.com/products/kawasaki-zx14-evo-series/

[Nastytls]

Out of curiosity, what is different about this clutch? Is it just additional bite/strength or something else entirely? Is the "MTC" part just added to the pressure plate of an existing Bandit clutch?

Not sure which clutch you are referring two as there are two different clutches being discussed here; the Bandit Sportsman and the Bandit Super Clutch.

The Sportsman drops into existing oem or oem replacement style baskets. Its a typical six-coil spring setup with an increased surface area compared to the oem harley units.

The Super Clutch, with or without the MTC lockup unit is a totally different design that uses a billet steel basket and larger everything. The MTC variable pressure hat is optional. Not good for most street riders that use the hand clutch to operate. Good for racers and others that have air or electric shifters where the hand clutch is used only during the launch and stopping.

Sorry. Should have been more specific. I have the Bandit so I'm familiar with that, I was curious about the super clutch and mtc. Thank you for your explanation.

[mrmike]

I opted out on the RTV when I pulled my inner primary I used 2 Locktite products one was a thread sealer for the inner primary bolts.

The others name I can't recall and I'm on duty so I can't go to the toolbox and check,lol

Both worked perfectly with no leaks, I'll post the name tomorrow but I imagine you may already be familiar with it.

I like Locktite products a lot.

Mike

You do know that sealing the threads of the bolts that secure the inner primary to the engine case doesnt really seal anything, right?

There is no fluid inside the engine case to come out. The fluid is in the primary case and leaks around the bolts and between the engine and inner primary cases. The threaded portion of the bolt inside the engine case really seals nothing in this application.

I simply cut a cover and got caught. Many years of dealing with For inner primary leaks has taught me to be almost surgically clean, to press the new seals in as square as possible and tot he correct depth, to pack them with grease, and to put a light bead of RTV around each of the bolt holes on the engine and trans mission cases before slipping on the inner primary. I skipped the RTV step and got called on it.

I just put the inner primary back on, called it a night. Will button this up tomorrow and see if its sealed or not.

Yup I'm aware that the bolt threads should present no problem, that said Manual wanted a dab of RTV put on the bolt threads upon reinstallation, nope not happening, so I used Locktite 565 thread sealant  just to keep the voices quiet.

I used 518 Flange sealant at the mating surfaces in place of the RTV.

Worked nicely.

Mike