Speaking of batterys

[FSG]

[-deuced-]

Disagree with stated part number. How old's the table? Original battery and HD replacements in my '01 deuce all have part number 65989-97C.
Only other number I've seen on them is 19ah. I've got no idea what their cca is. Sorry but I see one mistake in the table so how do I know if the rest of the table is accurate? I'm actually shopping for a new battery at present. So far my choices are another 65989-97C au$182.00, a deka from accessory shop au$162.00 (don't know number, salesman's claim "same as your HD battery, 330cca"), a yuasa from a battery shop (forgot the price, not interested, gotta put water in it. Seems a bit old fashioned to me) and a home brand from another battery shop au$99.00 (gotta ring up and make enquiry but $99 sounds too cheap). There's an importer here of lithium batteries. Not only is the price outrageous (au$600.00) but I'm not comfortable dealing with a guy who uses scantilly clad primary (elementary) school girls for his logo.
What's the part number on the battery in your fatboy?

[jbexeter]

a yuasa from a battery shop (forgot the price, not interested, gotta put water in it. Seems a bit old fashioned to me)

For values of "old fashioned" that include "serviceable" as opposed to "non serviceable"

You can "overcharge" a non sealed liquid lead acid battery to desulphate a suspect cell and prevent it from polarity reverting and making the whole battery scrap.

Another "old fashioned" trait was to use *pure* new lead or *fully* reconstituted lead instead of reconstituted scrap lead (which is what 99+% of auto batteries use today) which meant you got a 3 to 4 year shelf life and charge retention (much lower internal resistance and self discharge rates) and much higher CCA and much higher cycle life, as opposed to a 6 month shelf life and charge retention etc.

Of course the decision to use recycled and not fully purified lead for modern batteries is a PURELY financial one, there is ZERO good technical reasons to do so, and many good technical reasons not to do so, but cheaper manufacturing costs wins every time.

Yusas is the only battery I will consider for a motorcycle.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/

[FSG]

As we all know or at least should know there are errors of all kinds in documentation.

One would be extremely lucky to actually find a 65989-97B, yes my docs show your Deuce and my Fatty to have had the -97C when new, but I also have docs which say they were -97A, but I know that is an error, the orig battery from my Fatty is long gone, it was replaced with an off the shelf Deka, the non HD one that requires the spacers at the terminals.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J01575.PDF

[truck]

a yuasa from a battery shop (forgot the price, not interested, gotta put water in it. Seems a bit old fashioned to me)

For values of "old fashioned" that include "serviceable" as opposed to "non serviceable"

You can "overcharge" a non sealed liquid lead acid battery to desulphate a suspect cell and prevent it from polarity reverting and making the whole battery scrap.

Another "old fashioned" trait was to use *pure* new lead or *fully* reconstituted lead instead of reconstituted scrap lead (which is what 99+% of auto batteries use today) which meant you got a 3 to 4 year shelf life and charge retention (much lower internal resistance and self discharge rates) and much higher CCA and much higher cycle life, as opposed to a 6 month shelf life and charge retention etc.

Of course the decision to use recycled and not fully purified lead for modern batteries is a PURELY financial one, there is ZERO good technical reasons to do so, and many good technical reasons not to do so, but cheaper manufacturing costs wins every time.

Yusas is the only battery I will consider for a motorcycle.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/

About reusing lead.
I worked at Deka (East Penn Manufacturing) where thousands of batteries a day were recycled. The lead, cases and acid are all reused after processing. The lead is melted down and a sample is taken before it is poured into ingots. All batteries do not use the same lead composition so things are added to the batch to get the right specifications for the lead. I don't know what all they can add to the batch, other than scrap cast iron, to get it right.

The acid is cleaned up and reused but not in all batteries. Some won't work well with reclaimed acid. And FYI, all batteries don't use the same strength acid, vitriol (raw acid) is cut more and some less with water to get the proper specific gravity for a particular battery.

The cases which are all smashed to pieces to get the lead out are cleaned and pelletized and used to make new cases.

Page three an beyond explains it.

[Wide Glide]

Have to agree with Deuced, my last HD battery was rev. C. That one lasted 2 years, rev. B believe or not lasted 8+ years, rev. A 7 years.
My new one is from Batteries Plus, 2 year warranty and was cheaper. Time will tell.

[FSG]

Without a doubt the -97A and -97B Batteries lasted longer than the -97C Batteries do and while I know what was supposed to be in my Fatty and an 01 Deuce I'd like to see a pic of the OEM battery which is 100% guaranteed to be OEM in the bike it's in.

While I have plenty of battery pix, note: not all -97B are the same, I do not have a pic of the OEM Battery that was in my bike.

[-deuced-]

Right, my apologies. I cannot read. The original battery was  A suffix. I've still got it. My pic posting skills are worse than my reading ability. The individual cells are quite defined compared to a C but that could be from swelling although they're pretty even.

[FSG]

Andy's batterys.

The Dual Terminal Batterys made it easy to install them in older Evos where the connections were from the top, adapters were no longer needed.

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-97A Rear

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-97C Rear

[attachimg=4]

[FSG]

This is presently in my Fatty, an ETX20L   310CCA

I use gaffer tape to make a soft handle.

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[FSG]

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[CndUltra88]

As we all know or at least should know there are errors of all kinds in documentation.

One would be extremely lucky to actually find a 65989-97B, yes my docs show your Deuce and my Fatty to have had the -97C when new, but I also have docs which say they were -97A, but I know that is an error, the orig battery from my Fatty is long gone, it was replaced with an off the shelf Deka, the non HD one that requires the spacers at the terminals.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J01575.PDF

Oh, how I hate those spacers too !!!
Rob

[jbexeter]

[attach=0]

Being anal (hey, I'm English, being an anal asshole comes naturally) there are some issues with that...

Strictly speaking a battery *capacity* would be measured in watt/hours, and of course any battery will produce more watt hours at 0.25C than it will at 0.5C

Where C is usually the ten hour discharge rate for a lead acid battery, eg if it can draw 10 amperes for 10 hours and still maintain X terminal voltage range then C = 10 x 10 = 100 ampere hours for that particular battery.

I'm also going to take issue with the stated 7.2 volts, I know this is just a dynamic terminal voltage driving the cold cranking current, so V over IxR gives us 7.2 / 220 (CCA) = 0.0327 ohms internal resistance and as soon you you stop the discharge the static terminal voltage will recover, and I know that everything is different to a solid state electronics package, as opposed to the old points / condenser / coil jobs, but it is disingenious, eg marketing speak, to measure cold cranking at 7.2 volts cut off, it's much more real world practical to measure it at 10.0 volts cut off.

V/I*R again, 100 amperes at 12 volts = 1200 watts, divide by 745 = 1.6 BHP equiv.

I.6 BHP through the huge gear advantage of the starter bendix is plenty enough to start *any* motorcycle engine, I can't remember the numbers now but I did do an actual calculation of the work rate available when kick starting my old shovel, it was bugger all.

So CCA is not the *capacity* of the battery to hold charge, but the cold discharge capacity/ability within a given spec..

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_cca_cold_cranking_amp

The test measured / quoted here is the old SAE one, and the weakest / lowest standard available.... the DIN test often used in europe and often applied to Yuasa batteries such as I fit is a *much* harder test to pass... my local specialist battery vendor has the full set of testing equipment, they have to certify individual batteries for many of their customers, and Ive seen brand name batteries rated at 450 CCA on the SAE test that came out at 180 CCA on the full extended DIN test, which is fine if your starter isn't ever expected to pull more than 120 amperes which is the case in >99% of automotive applications..... but a 180/450 = 0.4 reduction factor matters a *lot* when the CCA figure is for example 175 amperes SAE, because 0.4 x 175 = 70 amperes, and 70 amperes x 9 volts (DIN) = 630 watts....

200 CCA amperes at SAE 7.2 volts = 1,440 watts or approx 2 bhp

1440 watts at DIN 9.0 volts = 160 amperes, so a 20% reduction in currect and heating losses for the same power transmission....

The DIN test also specifies a 150 second cycle, 2.5 minutes.

Cat were one of the few who specified never hit on the starter for more than 60 seconds in one go, then let it cool off for another 4 minutes, or you'll cook it (and the battery)

Speaking entirely personally, when buying batteries I have paid as much attention to claimed SAE CCA as I did to PMPO RMS watts when buying a stereo amp, it's ofter 10x higher than actual max RMS power, which is again usually 3 or 4 times higher than a true RMS with THD measurement..... ghettod blaster with 8 D cells claiming 100 watts music power vs the 450 person disco via reflex bins and 18" bass drivers rated at 100 watts per stereo channel.. so in theory according to the claims the ghetto blaster was half as powerful as the disco.

One metric I found that did work was compare the batteries of a given form factor and dimensions, for such things are fairly standard to a mm or two, and buy the heaviest one, it was heaviest because it had the highest lead content.

Not meaning to hijack the thread or drift off topic, but, like I said, anal asshole.. >;*)

[jbexeter]

http://www.getohm.com/#about

[Admiral Akbar]

I'm also going to take issue with the stated 7.2 volts, I know this is just a dynamic terminal voltage driving the cold cranking current, so V over IxR gives us 7.2 / 220 (CCA) = 0.0327 ohms internal resistance and as soon you you stop the discharge the static terminal voltage will recover, and I know that everything is different to a solid state electronics package, as opposed to the old points / condenser / coil jobs, but it is disingenious, eg marketing speak, to measure cold cranking at 7.2 volts cut off, it's much more real world practical to measure it at 10.0 volts cut off.

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning but if you want to calculate the internal resistance of a battery.. You need to use the voltage drop when loaded. Say the battery is at 12.4 at rest.. Resistance should be   (12.4 - 7.2) / 220 = 0.0236.. Battery is not only a resistor but a resistor and a voltage source..

[jbexeter]

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning but if you want to calculate the internal resistance of a battery.. You need to use the voltage drop when loaded. Say the battery is at 12.4 at rest.. Resistance should be   (12.4 - 7.2) / 220 = 0.0236.. Battery is not only a resistor but a resistor and a voltage source..

it's simple DC so V/I*R does apply.

Cutoff voltage, whatever you choose, will be your CCA, you'll get more current at the beginning of the test as there is more voltage to push the current through the load.

So cutoff CCA amperes will be measured at the cutoff voltage of 7.2, not at the start and 12.4 volts., in any event 12-7 = the voltage range during the cca test.... you can't use a range value to do V/I*R

Internal resistance in a lead acid battery is not a constant anyway, it varies, so you'd have to do several V/I*R calculations during the cold cranking test...

[Karl H.]

it's simple DC so V/I*R does apply.

[Karl H.]

This is the stock battery of my Dyna MJ2003 which I bought in October 2003. The Battery is marked as "-97A" version being manufactured in August 2003. It lasted 5 years.



Karl

[jbexeter]

it's simple DC so V/I*R does apply.

grab all the popcorn you want...... it's not a DC circuit with an incandescent filament bulb, it is as I said a simple DC circuit, ohms law dows apply.... sure, internal resistance of the battery (and battery terminals and cables and so on) all vary somewhat as temperatures change somewhat, sure there are momentary differences when the current is pulsed on and off and inductive / reactive / capacitive forces momentarily come in to play.. but it is in such small increments its not relevant.

A lead acid battery and switch and a carbon load pile is a simple DC circuit, it's pretty much the definition of a simple DC circuit.

We don't *care* about battery chemistry, all we care about is terminal voltage, current flow and battery / electrolyte temp... as read off from the attached meters, the battery can be a black box, in fact it should be, for blind testing.

[Admiral Akbar]

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning but if you want to calculate the internal resistance of a battery.. You need to use the voltage drop when loaded. Say the battery is at 12.4 at rest.. Resistance should be   (12.4 - 7.2) / 220 = 0.0236.. Battery is not only a resistor but a resistor and a voltage source..

it's simple DC so V/I*R does apply.

Cutoff voltage, whatever you choose, will be your CCA, you'll get more current at the beginning of the test as there is more voltage to push the current through the load.

So cutoff CCA amperes will be measured at the cutoff voltage of 7.2, not at the start and 12.4 volts., in any event 12-7 = the voltage range during the cca test.... you can't use a range value to do V/I*R

Internal resistance in a lead acid battery is not a constant anyway, it varies, so you'd have to do several V/I*R calculations during the cold cranking test...

Still not sure what you are saying.. Originally you used v /i to calculate a resistance 7.2/220 and called that internal.. It's not internal, it's external.. It's the equivalent resistance of the load. To get the resistance of a battery you really need to pick a couple points where you measure I and V and get the slope of the line..   When you do that you get the internal resistance of the battery at some state of charge.. I agree as the battery discharges it's internal resistance changes also..

[jbexeter]

Still not sure what you are saying.. Originally you used v /i to calculate a resistance 7.2/220 and called that internal.. It's not internal, it's external.. It's the equivalent resistance of the load. To get the resistance of a battery you really need to pick a couple points where you measure I and V and get the slope of the line..   When you do that you get the internal resistance of the battery at some state of charge.. I agree as the battery discharges it's internal resistance changes also..

No, I'll try and ask my local battery guy if I can photo his kit...

The "load" is a stack of carbon graphite plates in a vice like thing, compress it to close the circuit, it's basically a dead short, you'd need a lab grade reference box and so on to measure the resistance, it's so close to zero as to be zero.

The cables he uses are 1200 ampere, again, effectively zero resistance.

Cold cranking is basically introducing a dead short across the battery, but doing so with cables properly secured to the terminals etc so you do not get arcing flash damage or any risk of ignition from outgassing.

The only resistance of note is the battery internal resistance, and that is what limits current flow.

12 VDC into 1 Ohm will get you 12 Amperes, into 0.1 Ohm gets you 120 Amperes, into 0.01 Ohm gets you 1,200 amperes, into 0.001 Ohm (assuming you could get a lead acid battery with such low internal resistance, you're into supercap territory now) gets you 12,000 Amperes, and so on.

One thing that is very hard to find out nowadays is how many plates the battery has, the more plates the better the battery, but the more expensive to make.

Hawker batteries as used for aerospace and torpedoes and *very* high end UPS systems are 100% pure new lead and multi plate construction, and (if cared for and not deep cycled too deep or too often) will give ten or more years great performance and lifetime, all the UPS ones were pulled after 5 years in service, and everyone immediately put them in their cars and got another five to seven years of life, sadly the ones we had access to are the wrong size to fit a motorcycle unless you have a sidecar..lol

http://www.hawkeraplus.com/pdf/Hawker-MILPC-AGM-Performance-Specs.pdf

[Karl H.]

Ah, I get your point now! Your assumption is that the resistance of the carbon stack you use for CCA testing is an order of magnitude lower than the internal resistance of the battery and can therefore be neglected in the R=U/I equation. I don't think that this assumption is valid.

Karl

[FSG]

H3 = August 2003   

[N-gin]

I have the original battery in my 09 FB. Let me know if you want the number. I bought the bike new and never replaced the battery.

[Admiral Akbar]

Still not sure what you are saying.. Originally you used v /i to calculate a resistance 7.2/220 and called that internal.. It's not internal, it's external.. It's the equivalent resistance of the load. To get the resistance of a battery you really need to pick a couple points where you measure I and V and get the slope of the line..   When you do that you get the internal resistance of the battery at some state of charge.. I agree as the battery discharges it's internal resistance changes also..

No, I'll try and ask my local battery guy if I can photo his kit...

The "load" is a stack of carbon graphite plates in a vice like thing, compress it to close the circuit, it's basically a dead short, you'd need a lab grade reference box and so on to measure the resistance, it's so close to zero as to be zero.

The cables he uses are 1200 ampere, again, effectively zero resistance.

Cold cranking is basically introducing a dead short across the battery, but doing so with cables properly secured to the terminals etc so you do not get arcing flash damage or any risk of ignition from outgassing.

The only resistance of note is the battery internal resistance, and that is what limits current flow.

(Snip)

Still not sure what you are saying no to.. Carbon pile is the typical old way to measure CCA..   To measure resistance you need a good 4 wire milliohm meter..   

Not sure how the 1200 amp cables are speced. Most are rated by internal resistance and heat generated. In other words as long as it don't burn up it's OK.. Voltage drop could easily be in the 5 to 10% range.. May even need to to a higher amperage cable.


Cold cranking in a system is not a dead short. The starter, solenoid  and cables all have resistance.  The reason they pick a voltage to measure amps is simply convention.. Most HDs need 9.0 volts or better to start when cranking. 

You don't necessarily get arcing in an Ohmic connection. You do get heat tho which can be damaging.