Curious about TTS CLBs...

[Blackbaggr]

I'm using 739 with my 07 96 " dresser. I've been done with my tune for awhile...haven't had the best weather for riding but its getting better. I added Andrews 26h cams before finishing my tuning. I guess you could say I'm enjoying the new found power...but my mileage aint so great. I suspect my problem is more on the user than the tune or where I set the CLBs. (Need to learn about moderation when it comes to the twisty thing on the right side of my handlebar).

So in summary...I'd like to compare what people are seeing for mileage with their TTS' and where they set the CLBs.

TIA !

[Scramjet]

Good idea.  I would like to see that kind info too.

We have two bikes running with the CLB's set at 778.  We have not had the weather to get real MPG numbers yet but I will post them when I get them.

B

[Herko]

Here's two:

2008 EGS 103/Stock Cams/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 781...Owner reported "First 200 miles of mixed style driving ....46.5 mpg" 78HP 97TQ SAE

2007 EGC 96/SE255's/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 798 in Cruise...Owner reported 43 mpg mixed riding. 84HP 100TQ SAE

[FLTRI]

2007 EGC 96/SE255's/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 798 in Cruise...Owner reported 43 mpg mixed riding. 84HP 100TQ SAE

And as high as 48-50 mpg @ 70-75mph steady cruise on the interstate.
John,
This is what we normally do with CLB and see this associated mileage. I wonder if some folks think that the CLB will tune their bike? I see on another thread there is a bike running "pig rich". If that is the case the VE's are way off and the O2 sensors cannot grab the AFR and correct them. This will be the case if the VE's are too far away from producing the AFR table values. At least that's what it sounds like?
HTH,
Bob

[Herko]

"If that is the case the VE's are way off and the O2 sensors cannot grab the AFR and correct them."

Bob,
Great point. I've often wondered what the true effective reach is of these OE sensors. Looking solely at the tables for switching sensors, it's about +/- 20% of stoich. This would be about 11.7 AFR to the rich direction. But not sure how effective they are at the far reaches. In the pig rich range say 10.0 or even fatter, agreed, the VE's would have to be manually moved leaner such that the OE sensors can at least start to see what to do.

A build of non canned map components, add some jumbo-juicer injectors etc. without making the proper allocations, one would need an AFR reading device to know that he's at least in the ballpark...or not.

[Blackbaggr]

I'm glad to spark some interest..here is my deal...

I did a few rides last week and seemed to get 36 and 31 mpg. Now I have to admit that I was rolling on the highway...prolly about 70 miles on the 31 mpg sample. (i won't discuss speed as that may incriminate me) I definitely have some sooty residue on the endcap of my Supermeg.
I did 2 v tunes and the gent I bought my TTS from adjusted my timing based on data logs I sent him. So.......thoughts?

[FLTRI]

I'm glad to spark some interest..here is my deal...

I definitely have some sooty residue on the endcap of my Supermeg.
I did 2 v tunes and the gent I bought my TTS from adjusted my timing based on data logs I sent him. So.......thoughts?

How have your v-tunes gone? All green? What are the AFR targets set to in the AFR table?

[Blackbaggr]

Bob/ Herko...

Here is my current AFR...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[eddfive]

Not Bob or Herko, but my research into the world of Oxygen sensors has been very informative.  The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields no data and when this sensor was designed back in the 70's/80's it was designed to switch or control around stoichiometry or 14.6/14.7.  The voltage output they were designed around was in the 450mv range or this is the center point of the voltage output graph.  This sensor does not even start to put out a voltage signal until it reaches around 600degrees.  The original intent of this sensor was to be used at idle and in low load cruising areas, anything beyond that the vehicle would go into open loop.  In your particular case, looking at the AFR table you are using you have something wrong in the system.  It can be that the VE tables are not close to being calibrated or it could be intake or exhaust flange leak which would give false information to the 2-wire sensor.  With the AFR graph you are using you should easily obtain 38 to 42 mpg.  I will qualify that statement by saying 38-42mpg with the cruise on from point A to point B for a tank of gas then calculate the mpg.  If you are at WOT all the time then the mpg values go out the window.

As far as ignition timing goes the only and best way to do that is on a dyno.  The conditions are controlled and the dyno can hit the extremes where riding it on the street will not hit all the areas needed to check.  Long distance tuning of igntion tables will never work as each bike is unique and not one ignition curve fits all. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

First set of VEs...

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[Blackbaggr]

Second set before final blending...

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[Blackbaggr]

Final front Ve

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[Blackbaggr]

Final rear Ve

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[Blackbaggr]

Front timing

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[Blackbaggr]

Rear timing

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[Steve Cole]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst. The document you have attached is just a flat out bunch of BS as well. You seem to have left out the Bosch document #Y 258 K01 005-000e and everything it says about the sensor your so fond of. So everyone knows this is the technical specification document published by Bosch on the sensor itself, not aftermarket BS. Bosch is the manufacture of the sensor itself. How about the part where Bosch shows a 27% change to the output of the sensor and two different curves based on the absolute pressure? The only place there is no change is at 1 bar pressure and a lambda of 1. Go rich or lean from there, raise or lower the pressure from there and the sensor reading just from pressure changes will yield an error as much as +/- 12% from absolute pressures between .7 - 1.6 bar. This by the way is the range the HD can run in. Now add in the error cause by temperature that's not measured and anyone can see how far out you can and will be. The switching sensor is used by every auto and motorcycle OEM in the world today to control fuel, that alone should tell you something about how good they are for there intended purpose. If they were as bad as you are trying to mislead people that they are, they would have been gone long ago! Yes, they have a narrow range they work properly in but they are deadly accurate in that range and they are not effected by temperature and pressure. The cheap Bosch wide band sensor is not event close to being as accurate unless the system measures temperature and back pressure along with the sensor reading AFR! Only problem is none of the aftermarket kits read the temperature or backpressure, so the reading you get can be as much as 1 AFR off from what is really happening in the engine. Anyone want to call those good readings?

[Blackbaggr]

Steve...

I smell what your cooking & I drank the Coolaid  . Any thoughts on my mileage issue. I tried to post my v-tune info if anyone gets a chance to look at it. I dont believe I have exhaust leaks...I did put the Supertrapp on with the cams but I had NO popping...its actually VERY smooth. I suspect I'm just running it hard and loosing economy that way. From what I read elsewhere...my base calibration has been changed by Master tune to include more timing advance. When I get some time I may re-do. I used 739 as my CLBs.....should I go higher Temps here have been no higher than 65 yet. It will get to a nice 90+ average withe humidity. I want to keep it cool but I'd also like some economy. I also don't want to prematurely wear out the sensors. Thanks to all for input.

[ToBeFrank]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst.

eddfive's statement you quoted appears accurate to me. If I want to tune WOT to 13.0, I can't do it with a narrowband because it's outside of the narrowband's range.

Aren't most if not all dyno tuners using the cheap widebands? I can't imagine it would be profitable to use lab grade sensors.

[FSG]

Bill, the links are below if you want to edit and include with your pdf posts

document   http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01document.jpg



document2   http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01document2.jpg



final front ve  http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01final-front-ve.jpg



final rear ve    http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01final-rear-ve.jpg



timing front     http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01timing-front.jpg



timing rear    http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01timing-rear.jpg

[Steve Cole]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst.

eddfive's statement you quoted appears accurate to me. If I want to tune WOT to 13.0, I can't do it with a narrowband because it's outside of the narrowband's range.

Aren't most if not all dyno tuners using the cheap widebands? I can't imagine it would be profitable to use lab grade sensors.

The issue is what he is saying about the stock switching sensors and the cheap Bosch sensors. It's not true, and he mixes part of the truth in just to mislead people. The Cheap wide band sensor is no better and in many cases much worse than the stock sensors! If your going to use them then do it how the manufacture tells you they need to be used and then expect the proper results, but not using them how the manufacture says is useless.

If you calibrate the  VE table using the stock switching sensors and follow the direction include with Mastertune there is no need for using the cheap wide band sensors. If you sit back and look at how the system works, and you trust the ECM to do its job and make the bike run properly. The only issue is that the ECM does not know what the airflow is, so the VE tables need to be corrected to let it know. Once that is done you can set the AFR in the AFR table and that is what you will get out the tailpipe. So when we calibrate in the  14.4 - 14.6 with the switching sensor, let say and get it corrected, all you do is change the AFR to the new desired ratio and it's done. The ECM does it so well that in testing we find with lab quality equipment and sensors that the tail pipe comes out within +/- .2 AFR of commanded! Which is much better than you can measure with the cheap wide band sensors! So what we use is a very accurate switching sensor (stock) to set the airflow in the ECM in the range that the sensor works in and allow the ECM to do it's job for the rest. The dyno is used to determine which ratio is the best for your application as they are not all the same. One also needs to remember that if you lean it out to peak power on the dyno you most likely are going to be running to hot of EGT's. So now you need to richen it up to cool the cylinders down, it's going to cost you some power but save the engine in the long run. EGT's should not be run above 1500* for any length of time.

[Steve Cole]

Steve...

I smell what your cooking & I drank the Coolaid  . Any thoughts on my mileage issue. I tried to post my v-tune info if anyone gets a chance to look at it. I dont believe I have exhaust leaks...I did put the Supertrapp on with the cams but I had NO popping...its actually VERY smooth. I suspect I'm just running it hard and loosing economy that way. From what I read elsewhere...my base calibration has been changed by Master tune to include more timing advance. When I get some time I may re-do. I used 739 as my CLBs.....should I go higher Temps here have been no higher than 65 yet. It will get to a nice 90+ average withe humidity. I want to keep it cool but I'd also like some economy. I also don't want to prematurely wear out the sensors. Thanks to all for input.

The second V-tune shown looks like it's getting closer but still has a little ways to go yet. I do not much run the CLB up as far as you have but everyone can set them as they like. The higher value is going to help in the cooling effects but going to cost on the mileage side some. I would finish what you have now with Vtune and then save it away. Then put back the stock CLB table as we supplied it and vtune again. Once you have that done you will have two files that you can compare for your riding style. See which one works best and go with that.

[eddfive]

I am ready to have a discussion about O2 sensors.  But I think we need to leave the emotions and promotional feelings out of that discussion.  This thread is about a specific topic on CLB's.  The author of the thread is concerned about mpg and why his data was not yielding the results he desires.  There are a lot of variables in the system and there can be many reasons why the mpg is low.  Bad oxygen sensor, leaks, etc. etc.  I think even Mr. Cole will agree that the overall mechanical health of the system is important to yeild good results.

If you want to have an unemotional and non-promtional discussion about O2 sensors we can start another thread.  It is your choice?

[Steve Cole]

Then what was the point of your post and with your attachment, other than to misinform and mislead? My response is not about promotional feeling at all, while yours on the other hand is full of it. You seem to say one thing then when caught, try something else. The issue is straight forward here, mileage will be effected by the CLB setting and trying to use a device that does not work properly to set them is BS. Then trying to say that it's better than the factory sensors only misleads and confuses the person asking. I have proven what I've said time and time again, along with backed it up with the facts straight from the Sensor manufacture, you on the other hand have not and cannot.

Now let's look at what you have mislead in your post.

You said the sensor was for idle and cruise at low load, wrong again. Let's look at a AE176-002-B1 calibration since that is for a basic stock motor with A/C on it. Closed loop is 30 - 80 kPa and 750 - 4500 RPM. That is much more than idle and light cruise as a matter of fact it's over 85% of the usable engine range. Today's automobiles run closed loop with these very same sensors for a larger area due to the current emission regulations! The sensor could care less as it doesn't know what engine speed or load is! It just reads the exhaust!

Now you say the sensor does not work until its about 600*F and that's true but at what temperature does the cheap Bosch sensor begin to work, 400C is the answer and that 752*F! So what was the point of throwing this bit of information in if not trying to promote and mislead?

Then you ramble on that the only way to do timing is on the dyno!
"As far as ignition timing goes the only and best way to do that is on a dyno." these are your exact words and it's more promotion as it can be done and is done without a dyno just fine and many have been doing it that way for years.

While a dyno helps and does make things easier to do it's not near the end all be all device that you are trying to say it is, just the same goes for the cheap wide band sensor. Used properly both are tools and will help. Until your step up to using a real wide band sensor and meter or use the cheap sensor as it was designed to be used you cannot and will not do as well as the stock O2 sensors will do and that's on the dyno or on the street!

[eddfive]

I guess we will never agree.  I would never intentionally mislead or misinform. I just think that the WHOLE truth needs to be shared with everyone.  By the WHOLE truth I mean the reality of a partial tune versus a complete dyno tune.  I have all of the specs you are referring to:  I also have the NTK lab grade sensor spec the version I have is too large to post.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/sensors/lambda/LSU42.pdf

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/sensors/lambda/LSU49.pdf

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf

On page 23 of the Y258 spec they do talk about delta P.  You may be correct here but I have a question as I am always trying to learn and be more truthfully informed.  If pressure affects the Bosch LSU would it not affect the NTK sensor as well as the 2-wire sensor?  Seems like they all use some type pump/Nernst cell.  I also think it depends on how tuning is done like sweep test or step test and if the sensor is allowed to stabilize after the first exhaust pulse or delta P. Correct me if I am wrong. Documentation:
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm

I have also e-mailed/talked with Technical support at NTK and also discussed wideband sensor with an independent expert, Dave Darge of PowerTrain.  The general consensus is it is not the sensor that is the issue it is the controllers used that really determines the accuracy of the measurement.  How tuners handle the 5-wire sensor, free air calibrate the 5-wire sensor and evaluate the data can be an issue.  If this is not done in a meticulous manner then the tuning is off.

I can not accept the fact and most of my customers will not accept the fact that a manufacturer of a product is going to tell me or them that the tune “is good enough”.  Or give a false sense that tuning your bike on your own will get it almost tuned all the way, I think you said 85%, no way.   I will say once again that there is no way riding a bike and collecting data will be a replacement for dyno tuning.  I have tried it both ways and believe me the results off of the dyno are far superior.  It is hard to put data on Driveability.

I think you should do a survey among your distributors who have dynos and ask them what kind of success they have had with V-Tune.
I doubt any of the dyno tuners around the country are ready to throw away their 5-wire sensors and rely on the 2-wire sensor for tuning.  I could be somewhat biased though.

I will say though, that I do like MasterTune, it has some nice features and I have tuned a lot of bikes with it.

One last thought, I would be willing free of charge to donate my time and my dyno to do a comparison of driveability/performance, V-TUNE versus Dyno Tune.  I have done this already on my own and with customers that have V-Tuned and there is a big difference between the (2) in driveability.  Just not sure how to put this into data but I guess a big smile on a customers face after the dyno tune really says it all.

[Herko]

"I doubt any of the dyno tuners around the country are ready to throw away their 5-wire sensors and rely on the 2-wire sensor for tuning."

No, of course not, and a good tuning facility should use both IMO.

More and more I read and hear the misconception that the TTST along with the OE sensor is an Autotune system. It's not, nor was it intended to be Autotune. The TTST uses the OE sensor to help us "CALIBRATE" the ECU to fit and cater to the engines particular needs. Edd you may understand this, but many do not.

Albeit the OE sensor operates in a narrow window, the OE sensor is very good at what it does. Incorporate this feature with some software that takes advantage of this feature and it is a great assistant in the "CALIBRATION" phase of the tune. This proper calibration then in turn can result in a very good tune.

I too have read most of the documents you posted. I have also talked with Dave Darge. I've reviewed the NTK sensor training tutorials. I also agree that the software/blackbox arrangements from one brand of sniffer to another can differ. Meaning when the same sensor is used and delivers an output signal of X, one sniffer brand will show an AFR (or Lambda) of Y and another show Z.

I've also done some in house tests with the Bosch sensors. Bottom line, they will give inaccurate readings when they decide to drift (go bad). Not just a few tenths, but can be a lot more. This after showing good during their free air cal too. They typically will not give any warning when they start to go bad.

One of the findings was, the richer the test, the more the percent of inaccuracy. At or very near stoic they were still fairly accurate. When doing an Open Loop bike tune whereby you calibrate at say 13.2 AFR, one should ensure his Bosch sensor is doing what it's supposed to do at this AFR.

Could this Bosch drift (while the free-air-cal checked good) characteristic be a possible detriment to Autotune systems as well? Hmmm.

The OE sensors are not fool proof either. They can get lazy without throwing a "code". Checking the proper operation of these sensors should be encouraged and is easy enough to do in Data Mode of the SERT or TTST. Or when in doubt, just replace them. They're relatively inexpensive.

But again, the OE sensors are very good at what they do. The TTST capitalizes on this feature during the "Calibration phase" of the tune. This proper calibration of the Delphi engine management system results in some very, very good tunes with excellent driveability manners.  And yes, these customers have that big smile of satisfaction too.

[nc-renegade]

the cheap Bosch sensor begin to work,

Steve,
You lose my interest when you keep refering to the Bosch wideband sensor as "cheap" like it is a dirty word.  The switching sensors are extremely "cheap" as well.  Does that make them bad?

[FLTRI]

.........comparison of driveability/performance, V-TUNE versus Dyno Tune.  I have done this already on my own and with customers that have V-Tuned and there is a big difference between the (2) in driveability.  Just not sure how to put this into data but I guess a big smile on a customers face after the dyno tune really says it all.

Could you elaborate on what your customers have noticed between a V-tuned and dyno-tuned bike? Have you actually tuned a bike with v-tune, had the customer ride it, then dyno tune it and then had the same customer evaluate the difference? I am curious as to the differences, as I am considering the on-dyno v-tune in lieu of removing and replacing the OEM sensors with widebands for tuning.
Thanks,
Bob

[uglyDougly]

  First, I will state that Master-tune is the most complete Delphi reflashing tool available. Up until Master-tune the inability to reset the PE-AFR tables hindered getting all of the power from a build. Although, after the shellacing that is almost sure to follow this post, you might not be able to believe even this first statement.
  I'm sure this will get me branded a misleader and misinformer, but NCRenegade, I'm glad someone else noticed the implication of the constant use of the term 'cheap' before every reference to the affordable wide-band O2 sensors. I don't think Bosch calls them that.
  If this person is to be completely believed,Herko, and Bob should just give up and stop tuning using his junk equipment, GMR should just scrap the new dyno, and HDDOC should stop training people to use their 'cheap' tuning tools. Oh, and Mike Roland should give it up too!
  It goes without saying that Ed and myself aren't real tuners (although, my AFM1000, short-of-lab-grade NTK O2 sensors haven't been attacked/slammed/denigrated yet, I'm sure that will come.)  (Put your hands in the air and step away from the tools!!!)
  This comes from the same source that butts (oops, I'm using an implied negative term) into informative threads about other companies products and makes false, misinformed, or misleading statements about the capabilities of these products.  In defense of that position, it really isn't lying if you're ignorant.

   Up 'til now I've kept my opinion to myself in deference to those who are better informed, but the shameless self-promotion and targeted attacks that I've been seeing on this forum has finally gotten to me.

   Going limp now.

   Doug

[eddfive]

Hi Bob,

  I did a bike for HotBike magazine a couple of months ago.  He did not want me to mention too much about this as he is currenly writing the article for the magazine.  It was the writers bike and we V-Tuned on the dyno (2) times according to the instructions and he helped me to make sure I did it correctly.  Looked at the dyno data and the HP/TQ lines were about the same as the baseline MasterTune file.  At this point we did not ride it but he had ridden it several times with the base map and the curves before and after V-Tune were almost identical (a little wavy and a dip in the middle).  I went ahead and pulled the 2-wire sensors, installed my 5-wire sensors and did my typical dyno tune into the MasterTune base tune file. This includes AFR tuning, my ignition map tuning and getting all the support files correct.

  Now when I printed the HP/TQ curves they were perfectly smooth with no dips and waves as the basline showed.  Here is the best part, I went and rode it and it was really smooth with no surging or bucking, this is my typical tune.  When the owner went and rode it he was absolutely amazed at the driveability difference between the basemap and the dyno map.  I can not really say that V-Tune did not work but the wavy/dippy line was the same as the baseline tune file.  After my dyno tune it is as smooth as silk.  My method of removing sensors and tuning has proven this over and over again.  I have no reason to change my methods until someone can prove or show me a better method.  Again MasterTune worked great with the Dyno and my sensors.

Ed

[FLTRI]

Ed,
Thanks for the info. Just a question regarding timing though. If I understand what you said, you did not maximize the timing when you did the V-Tune but did when you did you normal tune. I have noticed the timing, if not maximized (mostly advanced), presents a light surge that seem to go away after timing adjustments are completed. Do you think the bike would have run smoother if the V-Tune would have included the same timing improvements you do on your normal tune?
Also, when you refer to wavey lines are you referring to WOT tuning? I'm understand the V-tune will not maximize WOT tuning and that still need to happen separately?
Thanks,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Not only have we done the V-tune calibrations and back checked them with Lab equipment we have hundreds of customers that have tuned there own bike after a so called dyno tune to have a better running bike but one that also gets better fuel economy. How do you think we learned about the problems with the cheap Bosch sensors? The hard way, back in automobiles of the late 80's and early 90's. They just do not do what you’re trying to say they do and it’s plain to see if you do nothing but read the Bosch documents as to why. Dave Darge and I have been personal friends for over 15 years now so I know him well; as a matter of fact I have done plenty of calibration work for him over the years. The stock switching sensors are very good at what they do and the Delphi ECM code is very good at what it does. You cannot with any accuracy tune with a cheap wide band sensor and the current aftermarket units any closer than one can do with a switching sensor when done properly. The reason I call it "Cheap" is to set it apart from the "Expensive" sensors. The cheap sensor works as advertised by Bosch perfectly but it does not work like some here are trying to say.

Mastertune does not nor do we say it does the timing or the proper AFR for anyone's build of parts. What it will do is correct the AFR to the called out AFR and do it without using the cheap wide band sensor. If you use a based calibration that we supply you will find it to be set slightly to the rich side and the timing slightly retarded and we tell everyone this. It's done as that is the safe position to be in. Too lean and too much timing can cause damage so our base calibrations are set the way they are. I have informed every dyno operator that we speak too about the issues with the cheap wide band sensor and that they need to be checked. Most do and find that what I've said is true. Herko is just one example of many that did some back to back test and found his system off by 1 AFR. You cannot fix what you do not know about and getting people to know is just what were doing.

Now let's talk about the Hot Bike magazine one since Ed has brought it up. It was not a TTS base calibration and he knows it! So why Ed did you not say that? The calibration was supplied by the people who supplied the parts that were installed. This is just the same old BS from you. Just like when you came by the booth at the show in Ohio this year and lied to me about whom you were. Since I had already been told who you were it let me know just who I was dealing with. Now I explained it to you at the show and it's also in the instructions that you need to use V-tune until all the cells show less than a 5% correction. The instructions say that it typically takes 2 times but may take more, so again you did not follow the instructions. The instructions also talk about how to work on the timing curve and the PE curve too but you skipped those parts as well.

Mastertune will not do what a tuner knows (or should know) to do. A good tuner can always tune in the bike to get the last little bit of power and economy out of the bike and it can be done on the dyno or on a closed course. The dyno will make it quicker to do but it can and has been done without them for years. Can you take a base TTS calibration and use V-tune to tune in your bike........ you bet ya! I've said it over and over again that it will get you 85% of the way and if you want the last bit take it too a tuner. Many have done just that but many have also followed the directions and said for themselves that it was good enough for them without the dyno tune.

Yes, making something that works like Mastertune/Vtune pisses some dyno operators off as it takes away some of there customers and that's just the way it is. Some will learn to embrace it while others will refuse to say it works. It's not the only way to do it but just the way we chose to make it so more people could tune there own bikes and get a nice running bike.

[nc-renegade]

Yes, making something that works like Mastertune/Vtune pisses some dyno operators off as it takes away some of there customers and that's just the way it is. Some will learn to embrace it while others will refuse to say it works. It's not the only way to do it but just the way we chose to make it so more people could tune there own bikes and get a nice running bike.

Yes, and this is the same reason some folks do not like the T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Steve, when you announced the TTS, you stated an upgrade path would be available for owners of the SERT....well you changed your mind and frankly this is one reason I have not used your product.

[Steve Cole]

We have not changed our mind on the upgrade path. We just have not got everything finished to support it yet. We are currently working on an update for Mastertune that I thought would be released already but it's not. As soon as that is released the update for SERT owners for 2005 and newer bikes will be released. The update for older Delphi bikes (<2005) is what is on hold currently and this is due to the lack of interest at this point in time. If we see that there is a real interest we will do it but so far we have received less than 5 people that would like to do it and that just does not allow for us to do it for that, unless we use it as fill in work. Right now we have plenty to do and with new bikes due out shortly that's going to take a bunch of our time to get calibrations ready for them.

As for the Tmax and others they all have there place. The only feature I disagree with on them is the use of the cheap wide band and trying to tell people that it will correct to +/- .2 AFR over the entire operating range. I know this is not true and I have told people that have them to setup there bike and then come back into the software and limit the amount they can adjust. This will help in the long term problems with these sensors. The other choice would be to adjust them in and then remove the sensors and set the software to not adjust. The PC-V also disconnects the factory O2's so it disables some of the built in protection and the ability for the factory ECM to correct. None of these units that I know of use the sensor as Bosch calls out and by that I mean measures the necessary information to make proper corrections so the sensor can do it's job correctly.

[FLTRI]

T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Simply put, you can't include alpha-n EFI control systems (over 25 years old) and refer to them as advanced technology.

[eddfive]

Not hiding anything, the calibration used was a Yuill Bros. SERT calibration that was converted to an .MT7 TTS calibration.  It is a standard calibration in the MasterTune line up YA176-000-A1.  This what I was told about the calibration and how it came to be in Mastertune.  Correct me if the information is incorrect.  Do not throw up smoke and try to mis-direct.  I had a badge on at the V-Twin Expo and I spent several minutes with you looking at new features of MasterTune nothing more nothing less.  I actually learned something and I thought it was a cordial meeting.

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by 85% tune.  Do you mean 85% of the AFR Table area or do you mean 85% of the area that V-Tune will reach while riding?  Clarification please.

Correct Bob, I did not change the timing curve from the base YA176-00-A1.  This calibration was developed for the combination of parts on this particular bike.  I know the AFR's would have been off but timing should have been reasonably close.  My error on this I did not optimize the timing tables to the V-Tune.  I only changed the timing curve to what I use when I do the dyno tune.  You are correct this could of had some inpact on the way the curves looked and also driveability.  I look at dyno curves for all throttle sites plus WOT.  What I saw with the base map and the V-Tuned base map was a lot different than when I tuned it with the dyno and my sensors. My suggestion to you would be to give V-Tune a try on your Dyno and see if it works out for you.  I am not sure of your exact method of tuning so it may work.  I have not been able to correlate it very well to my method of tuning or final results.

[nc-renegade]

We have not changed our mind on the upgrade path. We just have not got everything finished to support it yet. We are currently working on an update for Mastertune that I thought would be released already but it's not. As soon as that is released the update for SERT owners for 2005 and newer bikes will be released.

Great, I look forward to this release (mine is 2005).  I also will add the 2 wire sensors needed for the V-Tune, from what I've read here, it should work??

[nc-renegade]

T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Simply put, you can't include alpha-n EFI control systems (over 25 years old) and refer to them as advanced technology.

Sure I can, but I did not say advanced technology.  I said "technology advances".  Big difference, and that was Steve's point as well.

Certainly you would agree that today's alpha-n designs are far different than 25 years ago?  By applying today's technology in microprocessor design and "cheap" wideband sensors, technology has enabled them to perform well.  Which mine does.

I am still and have always been open to try new systems and that is why I look forward to an affordable upgrade path for my SERT dongle.  I would like to try out Mastertune V-Tune technology.

I like being self-reliant, hence my decision to use the T-Max on my bike.  I do have access to a dyno with inertia brake.  I want to try out the TTS on my bike, then put it on the dyno and see the difference.  I think the TTS will dial in the AFR fine, though like the T-Max I suspect you will need a dyno to really dial in timing.

I am for any system that puts the decision making on who can work on the bike in the bike owner's hands instead of specialists.

[Blackbaggr]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?


...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

[FLTRI]

I am for any system that puts the decision making on who can work on the bike in the bike owner's hands instead of specialists.

I understand.

[Scramjet]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?

...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

DSanchez,

Not Steve or John but I do cut and paste timing tables from map to map with MasterTune.  It is very easy.  Click on the upper left corner to highlight the whole map and hit ctrl-C then go to your current map and click the upper left corner and hit ctrl-V.  Done.

Just be aware that the RPM break points are not the same on every map.

B

[Steve Cole]

The bike in question was a Yuill Bros. package, TTS had nothing to do with it and the base calibration was supplied by them. It was a calibration they supplied and You were told that, so it has nothing to do with it other than you trying to imply something that was and is not true. This was for a package they (yuill bros) have made up with there true dual exhaust, cams and A/C. How good or bad the base tune is has nothing to do with Mastertune at all. We have included there calibrations on our update service at there request just as we have and will do for other manufactures of parts. Your the one with all the smoke and mirrors. At the show in the booth you made sure to keep your badge turn upside down such that your name could not be seen and when I asked you, you said in you exact words "I'm no body, just do tuning for myself" when in truth you sell your services tuning.

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas. The data that is collected is used to correct the VE tables. The VE tables are the correction term so that the ECM knows how much air is entering the engine But the VE table is much larger than an engine can operate in. This is done so that different engines and different engine packages will all be covered. We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, this is because it's an air cooled motor not because the ECM or the O2 sensor cannot do it. Too much exhaust heat can be made too quickly under those conditions and being air cooled does not allow for it to be removed fast enough. Without using the proper equipment to check for these conditions, and for safety we stop it from happening. So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected. The remainder of the data can be filled in by following the instructions included with Mastertune. Then you need to move on to correcting the Spark and PE fuel, again you can follow the instructions in Mastertune. By doing this the customer can tune 85% of the total operating area of the bike themselves.

[Blackbaggr]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?

...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

DSanchez,

Not Steve or John but I do cut and paste timing tables from map to map with MasterTune.  It is very easy.  Click on the upper left corner to highlight the whole map and hit ctrl-C then go to your current map and click the upper left corner and hit ctrl-V.  Done.

Just be aware that the RPM break points are not the same on every map.

B

Thanks for the response !

[ToBeFrank]

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas.

I don't know how you can make this statement. I definitely wouldn't get Vtune data for 100% of the areas I ride in. Nor would it for any of my buddies that I ride with.

We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, ... So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected.

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables. Reply #19 by FSG in this thread, http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8918.msg93366#msg93366, shows Vtune is covering less than 60% of his VE tables. It's ironic that you're calling out eddfive as being misleading.

[Scramjet]

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables.

Frank,

Here is mine.  It goes up to 80% TP.  It is affected by altitude.  I am at about 700 ft.

B


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ToBeFrank]

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables.

Frank,

Here is mine.  It goes up to 80% TP.  It is affected by altitude.  I am at about 700 ft.

You missed my point. He was saying that because they do up to 85 MAP, that covers 85% of the VE tables. That is wrong and misleading.

Also, I didn't say Vtune would never be able to get 85%. It depends on the bike.

[eddfive]

I am going to take the low rode from here on out.  I apologize to those that were wanting real information.  I am sorry this has turned into a play on words and that Mr. Cole thinks I am a liar.  I also apologize to dsanches as this is his thread which started out about CLB's and MPG. I hope you get this figured out and if I can help in any way let me know.   I have a dyno and yes I now tune for a living.  I use whatever tuning device the customer has, really makes no difference to me.  Yes, I will make recommendations if asked.

I just want everyone to not lower their expectations and have a manufactrer of a product tell you it is good enough or make it sound like you will get your bike tuned at a high elvel when you may not.  None of us expect this with our cars so why should "good enough" be acceptable with a Harley.  Each bike I tune is different and I try to the best of my ability tp get the bike to run as good as it can.  Yes, I do get bikes back occasionally and yes I do fix them or adjust them.

If anyone would like to see data that I have or ask me any question about tuning I can be reached at ed@thedynodifference.com.  I will respond if I am able or I will tell you I do not know.  I still learn on every bike I tune as each one has its own personality.

Ed

[Steve Cole]

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas.

I don't know how you can make this statement. I definitely wouldn't get Vtune data for 100% of the areas I ride in. Nor would it for any of my buddies that I ride with.

We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, ... So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected.

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables. Reply #19 by FSG in this thread, http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8918.msg93366#msg93366, shows Vtune is covering less than 60% of his VE tables. It's ironic that you're calling out eddfive as being misleading.

I can backup each and every statement that I have said. If you read the instructions and do what is told you can tune 85% of the bikes running range. Yes, the VE table is based on TPS but let's look at that so that Frank and others can learn. If your at sea level the MAP kPa will run from about 25 - 100 kPa on a HD engine, based on the load on the motor. The TPS will be 0 - 100%. Once the MAP reads 100 kPa no matter how much you turn the throttle the airflow through the engine does not change at a given RPM. So since we measure up to 85 kPa and calibrate for that you have the information you need to dial the VE tables in by following the instructions. Let's use 1250 RPM for an example, at this RPM your going to hit 85 kPa about 10% TPS so the vtune data will get you to there and give you the proper VE for that. Before 15% TPS your at 100 kPa another words max airflow at this RPM. So what do you think will be the proper VE value to fill in for 15 - 100% TPS? Since its at max airflow it will be the same value over and over again! So you take the value you have at 10% TPS (85 kPa) and use it over again. You can look at the trend from the 5%, 7% and 10% TPS and follow that for the 15% TPS but then use that new value over and over again. This will get you within a few percent of the proper value which is just as accurate as you can get on the dyno with the cheap wide band sensors! Now let's move to 6000' instead of sea level. At this altitude you will see 25 - 83 kPa for the engine MAP values. Here you can tune near 100% with Vtune and have to fill no cells in. This process is covered in the instructions.

So which tuneup is correct and the answer is they both are because you have tuned to within the accuracy of the system itself but you need to follow the instructions! So my figures are not mislead or wrong at all.

My issue with ED is simple, he comes to a show and turn his badge upside down and try's to mislead me with his statements, comes on a thread about tuning and brings in BS about wide band sensors then attaches a document that is wrong and does it time and time again after we've had the same discussion about the issues with the cheap wide band sensor. Then he try's to say that a TTS supplied tune is wrong when he knows full well and good TTS did not supply the tune.  Then he goes on, on how his tuneup worked better but fails say he did not follow the directions with the product and expects it to work properly! After all Frank you were the one that posted the link to the factory documents that I showed  everyone where Bosch clearly shows what the sensor does. I have repeatedly said that I wish the sensors would work better or that the aftermarket would do what Bosch calls out for but they do not, and there is nothing you nor I can do about that. What I can do is inform people how they really work and back it up with facts and this is just what I have done here.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Next...      I mean this in a good way. 

[sportygordy]

Here is some good reading on the 'cheap Bosch sensor" 


www.performancetrends.com/wide_band_uego.htm

[FLTRI]

I especially like this bit of info:

"Notes on the Sensor:

You can typically tell if a sensor is starting to fail if it is very slow to respond to changes in A/F, like from blipping the throttle, or slow to show proper signals during warm-up (system power on but engine not running).  The response will continue to slow until finally there is no response from the sensor.  Running the sensor in "clean" exhaust for a while can partially restore a sensor.  See Note below about "cleaning".

The sensor contains a ceramic module and should not be subject to mechanical or thermal shock or it may be damaged.  Thermal shock would occur if liquid drops of water were to contact the sensor, like if a sampling trap for the DT2-AFR Remote sampler were to over fill.

The sensor is not designed for operation on leaded fuels, doing so will shorten sensor life.

Long term running in the rich region (Lambda < 0.95) will shorten sensor life, running very rich will dramatically reduce sensor life.

High exhaust temperatures (over 850 deg C, 1560 deg F) will shorten sensor life.

Engine oil consumption at a rate greater than 1 quart per1,000 miles will shorten sensor life.

Do not run the engine with the UEGO sensor installed without power applied to the controller and the sensor plugged in.

It may be possible to "clean" sensors if you run them in a modern, production car with good emissions, with the proper DT2-AF1, DT2-AF2 or DT2-AFG controller connected.  This must be done before the sensor has completely failed.

A good rule of thumb for sensor life is:  A sensor will last about as long as your spark plugs.  If your spark plugs are fouled by lead or very rich running, you sensor is likely to have failed also."

[sportygordy]

I especially like this bit of info:

"Notes on the Sensor:

You can typically tell if a sensor is starting to fail if it is very slow to respond to changes in A/F, like from blipping the throttle, or slow to show proper signals during warm-up (system power on but engine not running).  The response will continue to slow until finally there is no response from the sensor.  Running the sensor in "clean" exhaust for a while can partially restore a sensor.  See Note below about "cleaning".

The sensor contains a ceramic module and should not be subject to mechanical or thermal shock or it may be damaged.  Thermal shock would occur if liquid drops of water were to contact the sensor, like if a sampling trap for the DT2-AFR Remote sampler were to over fill.

The sensor is not designed for operation on leaded fuels, doing so will shorten sensor life.

Long term running in the rich region (Lambda < 0.95) will shorten sensor life, running very rich will dramatically reduce sensor life.

High exhaust temperatures (over 850 deg C, 1560 deg F) will shorten sensor life.

Engine oil consumption at a rate greater than 1 quart per1,000 miles will shorten sensor life.

Do not run the engine with the UEGO sensor installed without power applied to the controller and the sensor plugged in.

It may be possible to "clean" sensors if you run them in a modern, production car with good emissions, with the proper DT2-AF1, DT2-AF2 or DT2-AFG controller connected.  This must be done before the sensor has completely failed.

A good rule of thumb for sensor life is:  A sensor will last about as long as your spark plugs.  If your spark plugs are fouled by lead or very rich running, you sensor is likely to have failed also."

And I especially like this bit of info:

Typical production car O2 sensors rely on “nernst cell” technology, commonly called “Narrow Band”, “2 wire”, “4 wire” and sometimes erroneously described as “Wide Band”. This is a very cost effective method that outputs a voltage based on the oxygen content of the gas being sampled. It is accurate in the region surrounding stoichiometric operation and leaner. Unfortunately, in the rich region where high performance engines usually operate, their accuracy and repeatability is virtually non-existent.

The rich region output of a common O2 sensor is very temperature dependant, which renders it useless if an accuracy greater than 1.5:1 AFR is desired. This is immediately obvious given the fact that a single output voltage actually represents wildly different AFR’s depending on the unregulated and unmeasured sensor temperature. These sensors were designed for operating closed loop around the stoichiometric AFR (14.64 for gasoline), and for performance tuning they are useless.

The heart of the Performance Trends Wideband controller is the Bosch LSU4.2 Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen (UEGO) sensor. This type of sensor is commonly referred to as “laboratory grade” and works on a different principle than the normal oxygen sensor you would find in your car. Its unique design makes precision AFR measurement possible over the entire operating range.

[Steve Cole]

Here is another good read of just how well these cheap sensors work. This was an independent test run on several units. Note that the Dyno Jet system was tested and this is just what most dyno operators are using for there results.

http://paceperformance.com/paceperformance/pdf/widebandshootout.pdf

The Results
We tested the top wideband air/fuel ratio meters available on the market. There was a surprising amount of variation between
the various units, in terms of both accuracy and response time.

Of particular note was the issue of calibration. Only two units appeared to be capable of calibration, and both used free air as a reference. One of the most accurate (Innovate) was self calibrating, while the other unit (NTK) required the user to turn a knob until the display read “CAL.” This raised the obvious question: If a unit is not capable of calibration, how does the user know when the sensor is going bad? We know from the
Bosch data that the sensors themselves change as they age.


As anyone can see that the units do not event agree with one another for the limited testing they got!

For those of you that would like to read what I've said all along here is the same discussion about these cheap wide band sensors.

http://cvogarage.com/index.php?topic=526.45

[ToBeFrank]

Here is a real world result of projecting (guessing) the VEs you can't tune with Vtune:

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9170.0

[ToBeFrank]

Here is another good read of just how well these cheap sensors work. This was an independent test run on several units. Note that the Dyno Jet system was tested and this is just what most dyno operators are using for there results.

http://paceperformance.com/paceperformance/pdf/widebandshootout.pdf

This isn't testing the accuracy of the sensors. It's testing the accuracy of the controllers. Bosch says right in their documentation that the controller is the important part. As far as I'm concerned, this pdf proves Ed's statement that the controller is what dictates the accuracy of the Bosch sensor. It looks like Innovate does a good job. Dynojet, not so much. As bad as you say these sensors are, I'm wondering how any dyno tuner using the Bosch sensor gets a bike tuned?

[ToBeFrank]

I especially like this bit of info:

Which sensor do you use when you tune Bob?

[FLTRI]

Which sensor do you use when you tune Bob?

We use the LSU4. Since Dynojet's wideband O2 and air pump does not have to deal with positive exhaust pressure, vibration, or high heat, accuracy and reliability is far less of a concern.

IMO, preventative maintenance by checking with calibration gas and regular replacement is the key to successful use of these sensors.

We have found the problem comes when the EFI/O2 system on the vehicle uses these wideband sensors in the exhaust very close to the exhaust ports and there is no regular maintenance schedule for checking their accuracy or replacement. As time goes by the readings change. Exhaust vibration ("The sensor contains a ceramic module") over time shortens the life of these sensors. Also higher than normal EGT temps from traffic heat, lean burn, hard running, etc reduces the accuracy and life span of these sensors. While there may be readings still coming from a sensor in exposed to these conditions, the accuracy becomes compromised.

The above is based on my own personal experiences as used in the racing world and dyno tuning not on mfg papers or propaganda, or hearsay.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Tobefrank
Guess you missed this part of the test report.............

We did do one interesting sub experiment: The dyno shop had a variety of old and damaged sensors around. With one of these sensors, the Innovate XD-16 would show an error code indicating that the sensor was bad. When we connected these same sensors to any of the analog
gauges (with the right connector), they read as much as 3 AFR off. Again, the obvious question is: If your gauge can’t tell you when a sensor is bad, how do you ever trust it?

Also did you look at the dynojet results as this is the systems used by Ed and most other motorcycle operators. The only difference is that the dynojet dyno system uses a remote mounted sensor in a pump which further delays the readings so the correlation between the AFR and RPM is further off. So one must know what lag time there is between the AFR reading and the RPM being shown on the graph.

[ToBeFrank]

Tobefrank
Guess you missed this part of the test report.............

We did do one interesting sub experiment: The dyno shop had a variety of old and damaged sensors around. With one of these sensors, the Innovate XD-16 would show an error code indicating that the sensor was bad. When we connected these same sensors to any of the analog
gauges (with the right connector), they read as much as 3 AFR off. Again, the obvious question is: If your gauge can’t tell you when a sensor is bad, how do you ever trust it?

No, I didn't. It is saying the controller that tested to be accurate to within .1 AFR (the Innovate) also correctly detected a bad sensor. Again, this shows the difference between a well done controller and a not so well done controller.

Also did you look at the dynojet results as this is the systems used by Ed and most other motorcycle operators. The only difference is that the dynojet dyno system uses a remote mounted sensor in a pump which further delays the readings so the correlation between the AFR and RPM is further off. So one must know what lag time there is between the AFR reading and the RPM being shown on the graph.

Sorry dyno tuners... it's time to find a new job.

[ToBeFrank]

Which sensor do you use when you tune Bob?

We use the LSU4. Since Dynojet's wideband O2 and air pump does not have to deal with positive exhaust pressure, vibration, or high heat, accuracy and reliability is far less of a concern.

IMO, preventative maintenance by checking with calibration gas and regular replacement is the key to successful use of these sensors.

We have found the problem comes when the EFI/O2 system on the vehicle uses these wideband sensors in the exhaust very close to the exhaust ports and there is no regular maintenance schedule for checking their accuracy or replacement. As time goes by the readings change. Exhaust vibration ("The sensor contains a ceramic module") over time shortens the life of these sensors. Also higher than normal EGT temps from traffic heat, lean burn, hard running, etc reduces the accuracy and life span of these sensors. While there may be readings still coming from a sensor in exposed to these conditions, the accuracy becomes compromised.

The above is based on my own personal experiences as used in the racing world and dyno tuning not on mfg papers or propaganda, or hearsay.
Bob

Thanks Bob. Good information.

[Steve Cole]

Well Frank I see you only want to read what you want to read into it.

We did do one interesting sub experiment: The dyno shop had a variety of old and damaged sensors around. With one of these sensors, the Innovate XD-16 would show an error code indicating that the sensor was bad. When we connected these same sensors to any of the analog
gauges (with the right connector), they read as much as 3 AFR off. Again, the obvious question is: If your gauge can’t tell you when a sensor is bad, how do you ever trust it?

The point that said "a variety of old and damaged sensors" sure sounds like it's more than one sensor to me!
So the Innovate and the others read the rest of the old sensors as much as 3 AFR off. That doesn't sound very good to me at all but maybe that's good enough for you. The point is the electronics do matter, but it's not the only issue with these cheap wide band sensors. Yes, the Innovate read the test gas at room temperature the best and it at least flagged one sensor as bad but it missed the other old sensors. This is just what I've been trying to let people know, there are problems with them.

Now you want to talk about a switching sensor and that it's only accurate in a narrow range, guess what, your right and I agree with you 100%. That is just why we do our calibration procedure in the range that they work so well in and this is what Vtune is for. Once the calibration is done in that range the AFR can be reset to what the customer wants/needs. Vtune only calibrates the VE tables so the ECM can calculate the fuel properly, it's still up to the customer to put the right AFR values in for his/her application and adjust the spark as well.

[wolf_59]

Quote from Steve Cole
I can backup each and every statement that I have said. If you read the instructions and do what is told you can tune 85% of the bikes running range. Yes, the VE table is based on TPS but let's look at that so that Frank and others can learn. If your at sea level the MAP kPa will run from about 25 - 100 kPa on a HD engine, based on the load on the motor. The TPS will be 0 - 100%. Once the MAP reads 100 kPa no matter how much you turn the throttle the airflow through the engine does not change at a given RPM. So since we measure up to 85 kPa and calibrate for that you have the information you need to dial the VE tables in by following the instructions. Let's use 1250 RPM for an example, at this RPM your going to hit 85 kPa about 10% TPS so the vtune data will get you to there and give you the proper VE for that. Before 15% TPS your at 100 kPa another words max airflow at this RPM. So what do you think will be the proper VE value to fill in for 15 - 100% TPS? Since its at max airflow it will be the same value over and over again! So you take the value you have at 10% TPS (85 kPa) and use it over again. You can look at the trend from the 5%, 7% and 10% TPS and follow that for the 15% TPS but then use that new value over and over again. This will get you within a few percent of the proper value which is just as accurate as you can get on the dyno with the cheap wide band sensors! Now let's move to 6000' instead of sea level. At this altitude you will see 25 - 83 kPa for the engine MAP values. Here you can tune near 100% with Vtune and have to fill no cells in. This process is covered in the instructions.

Excellent information, As heated or passionate as these discussion get there is always good info that gets passed around.

[philmcc]

dsanchez...this is Sailor285...I set my CLB's at 450....then did mmy tunes and ajusted the afr to what I wanted in each rpm and then adj the afr in the cells I wanted to change for instance..I run 13.8 at idle and 1250 then 14.2 at 1500 and 14.6 at 1750 and up to 4500... I have great power and good fuel milage... At 70 with no wind and 60 deg out I got 51 mpg ..At 52 deg and 15-20 mph heaqd winds running between 55 and 65 I'm gettin just over 45 mpg Hope this helps a little....Dan

[ToBeFrank]

Well Frank I see you only want to read what you want to read into it.

When we connected these same sensors to any of the analog
gauges (with the right connector), they read as much as 3 AFR off.

They specifically said the analog gauges were off. Innovate is digital. I read it as they stated it.

[Steve Cole]

Here is a real world result of projecting (guessing) the VEs you can't tune with Vtune:

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9170.0

Yes Frank those are the results he has to this point, and most say that his combination should make about 120 Hp and he’s at 111 Hp That 92% of the way there with the best running this bike has had. He had a PC III dyno tuned on it before so he has something to compare too. Is it as good as we would like right now, NO, but what have I said time and time again……… 85% and he is well past that already with a good running bike that is very safe the way it is. Not bad for someone that has never tune before, that started with a calibration that was not for his engine combination and he did it himself on the street with no other help. Now we are looking at what he has done and making some corrections for him. These things will be explain better in future releases of our help files as we have not done it well enough it appears.

Well Frank I see you only want to read what you want to read into it.

When we connected these same sensors to any of the analog
gauges (with the right connector), they read as much as 3 AFR off.

They specifically said the analog gauges were off. Innovate is digital. I read it as they stated it.

Really, then what happened to the “variety of old and damaged sensors” since it only found one bad? Also how many motorcycle dyno guys are working with the Dynojet product and how many are using the Innovate or other brands? The problems are real and that's all I want people to know.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

I have great power and good fuel milage... At 70 with no wind and 60 deg out I got 51 mpg ..At 52 deg and 15-20 mph heaqd winds running between 55 and 65 I'm gettin just over 45 mpg Hope this helps a little....Dan

Philmcc-Just curious, what Bike/build are you obtaining the above on?  My 09 UC has never seen better than 35, even when new.  Last tank was 31 MPG,  I am currently re-tuning (with Help from Mr. Herko) I have discovered that a lot of my issues with TTS have been self inflicted (attention to detail).  As I begin to understand how the system operates, the better my scoot runs.  MPG have yet to be tested as I am still in the tune phase.


All,
I am interested in purchasing what ever I need to set the WOT AFR.  Any recommendation would be appreciated.

As always TIA,
Mike

[sportygordy]

Here is another good read of just how well these cheap sensors work. This was an independent test run on several units. Note that the Dyno Jet system was tested and this is just what most dyno operators are using for there results.

http://paceperformance.com/paceperformance/pdf/widebandshootout.pdf

This isn't testing the accuracy of the sensors. It's testing the accuracy of the controllers. Bosch says right in their documentation that the controller is the important part. As far as I'm concerned, this pdf proves Ed's statement that the controller is what dictates the accuracy of the Bosch sensor. It looks like Innovate does a good job. Dynojet, not so much. As bad as you say these sensors are, I'm wondering how any dyno tuner using the Bosch sensor gets a bike tuned?

I caught that too. Steve has a very bad habit of jumping to things without comprehending them. This is evident in several other forums. When he says the Bosch Wideband sensors are junk, i think most of us really understand the real deal here. His PDF attachment clearly proves the Bosch Wide Band Senor's are not junk and actally very good performance tools and the Narrow bands are the 'real' junk. Plain and simple, anyone after performance will use the Bosch sensor and a tuning system capable of wide band sensing, just as you see on every Dyno Tuners garage. Unfortunately the TTS is not a performance package. I guess it's it's o.k. for the EPA guidelines and getting good gas milage, but its autotune flunks in the performance arena.   

[FLTRI]

Maybe I'm a bit thick in understanding what the point is here, but let me toss my $.02 in here.
AFAIK the narrow band (switching) sensors the automotive industry relies on for true and consistant output is highly accurate in the 14.0-15.0 AFR range.

TTS instructs the tuner to set the target AFR table to 14.6 and V-tune, over 2-3 run sessions, will calculate VE changes to get to that 14.6 AFR everywhere except basically WOT.
Then, after V-tune has recalibrated the VEs to 14.6, and the subsequent calibrations have been installed, the AFR target table can be physically changed from 14.6 to whatever the tuner desired to run the engine at. Then the software recalculates the VE tables to end up with the actual AFR listed in the AFR table.

While this is certainly different from what tuners normally do (manually tune VE tables to desired AFR) if the V-tune software calculations are correct, the end result s/b the same.

My take on the inexpensive Bosch wide-band sensors is as long as these sensors are routinely checked for accuracy with test gas and replaced as necessary (change sensors when changing sparkplugs was mentioned in an article), they work just fine. It is when they are permanently mounted to high vibration exhaust pipes for extended periods, without routinely checking their accuracy, that expected AFR can change without the rider being aware.

I have always maintained auto-tune systems using these sensors should be taken out of auto-tune and the sensors removed once the system has accomplished the tuning process. That way there is no concern of sensor voltage output change or failure causing running issues.

[Steve Cole]

Not only have we done the V-tune calibrations and back checked them with Lab equipment we have hundreds of customers that have tuned there own bike after a so called dyno tune to have a better running bike but one that also gets better fuel economy. How do you think we learned about the problems with the cheap Bosch sensors? The hard way, back in automobiles of the late 80's and early 90's. They just do not do what you’re trying to say they do and it’s plain to see if you do nothing but read the Bosch documents as to why. Dave Darge and I have been personal friends for over 15 years now so I know him well; as a matter of fact I have done plenty of calibration work for him over the years. The stock switching sensors are very good at what they do and the Delphi ECM code is very good at what it does. You cannot with any accuracy tune with a cheap wide band sensor and the current aftermarket units any closer than one can do with a switching sensor when done properly. The reason I call it "Cheap" is to set it apart from the "Expensive" sensors. The cheap sensor works as advertised by Bosch perfectly but it does not work like some here are trying to say.

I've said it time and time again that the sensors work as Bosch says they will when use as Bosch says. The issue is they are not being used like Bosch calls outs by the aftermarket. If used with good quality electronics with the proper pressure and temperature measurements they work as advertised by Bosch. So if the test equipment does not measure pressure and temperature along with the AFR you are not going to get accurate results.

I guess a tuning package that is tuning the motors, by the bike owner, with no other equipment involved and by someone who has never tuned to within a few percent of max power and getting good gas mileage  is now call tuning for EPA guidelines. 

[Blackbaggr]

Steve...

Another question...if I'm reading correctly it appears that the PZ176 file has also had changes to the AFR table in addition to the timing. Assuming that is correct is it OK to cut & paste the AFR as well as timing changes to the calibration that I created from the older PZ176 calibration. I'd think that both of these changes may assist me in my goal of better mileage. I'm thinking some of my problem is actually my problem and I'm running harder than I should in the areas uneffected by the CLB table. 


OR...

Would it be better to take the new PZ176 file and start over ?

[Steve Cole]

We always recommend using the latest files to start with. I would take your VE tables and CLB tables and copy them into the newer file and go from there.

[sportygordy]

My take on the inexpensive Bosch wide-band sensors is as long as these sensors are routinely checked for accuracy with test gas and replaced as necessary (change sensors when changing sparkplugs was mentioned in an article), they work just fine. It is when they are permanently mounted to high vibration exhaust pipes for extended periods, without routinely checking their accuracy, that expected AFR can change without the rider being aware.

I have always maintained auto-tune systems using these sensors should be taken out of auto-tune and the sensors removed once the system has accomplished the tuning process. That way there is no concern of sensor voltage output change or failure causing running issues.

Bob,

Just curious, how often have you or do you change the Bosch sensor on your dyno table? And how often do you preform free air calibration?

[Herko]

Not Bob, but Bosch sensors can check good and go through their free air cal just fine, then be off by a significant amount in the 11 to low 14 AFR range. I've found they need to be changed fairly regularly.

[sportygordy]

Not Bob, but Bosch sensors can check good and go through their free air cal just fine, then be off by a significant amount in the 11 to low 14 AFR range. I've found they need to be changed fairly regularly.

Herko

I thought FLTRI was Bob.. I'm just trying to find out what he (Bob) does on his dyno table. I have input from a few other dyno owners and would like to compare their sensor maintenance schedules against his. Just working on another future post in regards to the 'junk' Bosch sensors. BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?

thanks,

sportygordy

[eddfive]

The single most important event a dyno tuner has is the handling of O2 sensors.  In my case they get free air calibrated before every bike and are allowed to warm up for 20-30 minutes before install.  After the 20-30 minute warm up I check free air again.  Free air needs to be just that no Hydrocarbons from exhaust fumes in the air where testing.  If during the free air calibration the position of the calibration knob has changed too much since the last calibration then I toss them and get a new one.  I go through sensors about 1 or 2 every 60-90 days.  The other important part is how they are handled and installed into the bike.  I have designed a special collector/chamber with the copper tube so that it does not "kill" the sensor with the vacuum pump.  I also have a very high dollar vacuum pump as I do not have a Dyno-Jet I have a Dynostar.  Vacuum pump maintenance is also vital if using the copper tubes.  My vacuum pump pulls a continuous 28 in hg all the time.  On the newer bikes I pull the 2-wire O2 sensors and install my 5-wire sensors.  At the end of the tuning session I again pull the 5-wire sensors and check the free air calibration, if it is the same or very close when I started I call it good.  It really boils down to the details.  I have very good success with this method and have "killed" a bunch of sensors to get this all figured out, I have a box full of rejects.  Is this method right or wrong I do not really care as it works for me and my customers are happy.

[Herko]

"BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?"

Yes and yes.

John

[FLTRI]

I have input from a few other dyno owners and would like to compare their sensor maintenance schedules against his. Just working on another future post in regards to the 'junk' Bosch sensors. BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?

thanks,

sportygordy

We go through between 8-12 sensors a year due to the volume of tunes we do. We check the tuning sensor against a known calibration sensor almost daily and especially if a tune is not behaving as expected and have found sensors to start skewing without notice and especially after using them in exhaust pipes for extended tune periods. For those applications we replace the sensors more than I'd like but sometime tuning by swapping sensors in the pipe is virtually the only way to get good readings due to the exhaust systems restrictions as with the new touring bikes.
We also never use leaded gas with O2 sensors as that kills them very quickly.
Bob
PS - Not sure why you call them "junk" sensors. They work just fine when monitored and replaced as needed in the vacuum pump because it is not subjected to the high vibration and EGT as when installed into the pipe right outside the exhaust port.
FLTRI/Bob

[ToBeFrank]

Any of you guys use copper heat sinks with the widebands?

[Steve Cole]

One thing for those of your trying to make your own with the copper tube method is to make sure if you solder the copper tubing together is you have to use lead free solder. When using the cheap wide band sensor (not junk) we have seen sensors die in as little as 2- 3 hours of use in road racing conditions and in drag racing conditions they are used about 12 seconds at a time and the readings drift off too far about every 30 - 40 passes. This is all on unleaded racing gasoline only.

[Steve Cole]

So now that it's said and done what I hope is that people have learned something. The Bosch cheap wide band sensors work just as the manufacture says they will and are far from Junk, when you do what the manufacture tells you to do! Most of all the aftermarket is not doing what the manufacture spells out and that causes most of the issues with the sensors not reading correctly across the AFR range. There is only one company that I know of that follows the manufacture specification by measuring pressure and temperature along with the AFR so you get the right reading in all cases, not just on the bench or in open air. That company has been making lab level measuring equipment for years and followed what Bosch spelled out in there technical documents. There name is ECM  http://www.ecm-co.com/category.asp?afra They make many levels of quality systems from the cheap to the expensive!

When in an environment like a HD in the head pipe close to the exhaust port the sensors do not hold up well for the reasons that have been shown through out this post and I'm not the only one who has seen the issues. Other have stepped up and shared the same issues as I have spelled out. We learned the hard way just like the others have, and we are sharing this information so others do not have to go through the same things as we have. If you want your reading to be correct using these sensors the measuring equipment must measure Pressure, Temperature and AFR to get the specifications the manufacture spells out, if they do not then do not expect them to be accurate.

[sportygordy]

I have input from a few other dyno owners and would like to compare their sensor maintenance schedules against his. Just working on another future post in regards to the 'junk' Bosch sensors. BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?

thanks,

sportygordy

PS - Not sure why you call them "junk" sensors. They work just fine when monitored and replaced as needed in the vacuum pump because it is not subjected to the high vibration and EGT as when installed into the pipe right outside the exhaust port.
FLTRI/Bob

Bob,, I'm not calling the Bosch wide bands "junk" I'm just being sarcastic upon someone else that has habits of referring to them as 'Junk"  I personally have very good luck with them and i follow the maintenance issues with their use as most individuals using them do. BTW, Im trying to find your phone number to pass on to a friend, Wayne, that wants to contact you for a tune appointment on his 06 FXSTC with SERT. Can you PM your contact info, thanks

[Steve Cole]

I have input from a few other dyno owners and would like to compare their sensor maintenance schedules against his. Just working on another future post in regards to the 'junk' Bosch sensors. BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?

thanks,

sportygordy

PS - Not sure why you call them "junk" sensors. They work just fine when monitored and replaced as needed in the vacuum pump because it is not subjected to the high vibration and EGT as when installed into the pipe right outside the exhaust port.
FLTRI/Bob

Bob,, I'm not calling the Bosch wide bands "junk" I'm just being sarcastic upon someone else that has habits of referring to them as 'Junk"  I personally have very good luck with them and i follow the maintenance issues with their use as most individuals using them do. BTW, Im trying to find your phone number to pass on to a friend, Wayne, that wants to contact you for a tune appointment on his 06 FXSTC with SERT. Can you PM your contact info, thanks

Are you for real? You are the one of the first that said there was no such issues. Now you claim there is............... glad you've learned something!

[sportygordy]

I have input from a few other dyno owners and would like to compare their sensor maintenance schedules against his. Just working on another future post in regards to the 'junk' Bosch sensors. BTY, do you own a dyno table? and is your reply in reference to your hands on experience?

thanks,

sportygordy

PS - Not sure why you call them "junk" sensors. They work just fine when monitored and replaced as needed in the vacuum pump because it is not subjected to the high vibration and EGT as when installed into the pipe right outside the exhaust port.
FLTRI/Bob

Bob,, I'm not calling the Bosch wide bands "junk" I'm just being sarcastic upon someone else that has habits of referring to them as 'Junk"  I personally have very good luck with them and i follow the maintenance issues with their use as most individuals using them do. BTW, Im trying to find your phone number to pass on to a friend, Wayne, that wants to contact you for a tune appointment on his 06 FXSTC with SERT. Can you PM your contact info, thanks

Are you for real? You are the one of the first that said there was no such issues. Now you claim there is............... glad you've learned something!

There you go with your 'bad' comperhension habits... Yup, i am the one that said there was no such issues with Bosch wide band sensors, and i still clam i have no such issues. Not sure where our how you feel i have issues with the Bosch sensors other then being sarcastic with your comments...     

[Sailor285]

Tre'_09UC...not Philmcc...was just using his laptop.. I have an 08 RG with fulsac tru duals..Bassani slip on's a K&N stock replacement filer with more holes added to the A/C housing and an Andrews 26H cam...I was getting good milage when it was stock also! I don't hammer it a lot which I'm sure helps...When you get a finneshed map you can the adj ur tables at WOT..looking at what you have then extending it out accordingly...If you set ur timing tables using the data mode ..then after u get those dailed in , then do another tune...This software works great and is just a matter of understanding it and a little time on the road collecting data.....Hope this helps.....Dan

[Scramjet]

Bill,

Here are two more data points regarding your original post.  We did 190 miles of country highway, batwing baggers, riding solo, about 45-65 MPH of fairly easy riding with air temps at just above 80*F:

1. 2007 FLHTC, 103 bb, SE251 cam, stock heads, Jackpot slip-ons, TTS CLB's at 739 = 38.6 MPG

2. 2007 FLHX, 107bb, TR590 cam, RevPerf heads, D&D exhaust, TTS CLB's at 739 = 42.9 MPG

They both could have been higher if we were at constant speed on the interstate doing the entrance ramp to exit ramp thing.  Just average cruising.  We will get some dyno pulls next week.

B

[Blackbaggr]

Thanks Scramjet...

...I think I was a bit too far into the throttle with the new cams. I have taking some mileage samples riding much more conservatively and found myself at 38 and 39 mpg. I also just retuned using the new PZ176 calibration and used 739 for my CLBs so...time will tell. The AFR and timing have changed.