Curious about TTS CLBs...

[nc-renegade]

the cheap Bosch sensor begin to work,

Steve,
You lose my interest when you keep refering to the Bosch wideband sensor as "cheap" like it is a dirty word.  The switching sensors are extremely "cheap" as well.  Does that make them bad?

[FLTRI]

.........comparison of driveability/performance, V-TUNE versus Dyno Tune.  I have done this already on my own and with customers that have V-Tuned and there is a big difference between the (2) in driveability.  Just not sure how to put this into data but I guess a big smile on a customers face after the dyno tune really says it all.

Could you elaborate on what your customers have noticed between a V-tuned and dyno-tuned bike? Have you actually tuned a bike with v-tune, had the customer ride it, then dyno tune it and then had the same customer evaluate the difference? I am curious as to the differences, as I am considering the on-dyno v-tune in lieu of removing and replacing the OEM sensors with widebands for tuning.
Thanks,
Bob

[uglyDougly]

  First, I will state that Master-tune is the most complete Delphi reflashing tool available. Up until Master-tune the inability to reset the PE-AFR tables hindered getting all of the power from a build. Although, after the shellacing that is almost sure to follow this post, you might not be able to believe even this first statement.
  I'm sure this will get me branded a misleader and misinformer, but NCRenegade, I'm glad someone else noticed the implication of the constant use of the term 'cheap' before every reference to the affordable wide-band O2 sensors. I don't think Bosch calls them that.
  If this person is to be completely believed,Herko, and Bob should just give up and stop tuning using his junk equipment, GMR should just scrap the new dyno, and HDDOC should stop training people to use their 'cheap' tuning tools. Oh, and Mike Roland should give it up too!
  It goes without saying that Ed and myself aren't real tuners (although, my AFM1000, short-of-lab-grade NTK O2 sensors haven't been attacked/slammed/denigrated yet, I'm sure that will come.)  (Put your hands in the air and step away from the tools!!!)
  This comes from the same source that butts (oops, I'm using an implied negative term) into informative threads about other companies products and makes false, misinformed, or misleading statements about the capabilities of these products.  In defense of that position, it really isn't lying if you're ignorant.

   Up 'til now I've kept my opinion to myself in deference to those who are better informed, but the shameless self-promotion and targeted attacks that I've been seeing on this forum has finally gotten to me.

   Going limp now.

   Doug

[eddfive]

Hi Bob,

  I did a bike for HotBike magazine a couple of months ago.  He did not want me to mention too much about this as he is currenly writing the article for the magazine.  It was the writers bike and we V-Tuned on the dyno (2) times according to the instructions and he helped me to make sure I did it correctly.  Looked at the dyno data and the HP/TQ lines were about the same as the baseline MasterTune file.  At this point we did not ride it but he had ridden it several times with the base map and the curves before and after V-Tune were almost identical (a little wavy and a dip in the middle).  I went ahead and pulled the 2-wire sensors, installed my 5-wire sensors and did my typical dyno tune into the MasterTune base tune file. This includes AFR tuning, my ignition map tuning and getting all the support files correct.

  Now when I printed the HP/TQ curves they were perfectly smooth with no dips and waves as the basline showed.  Here is the best part, I went and rode it and it was really smooth with no surging or bucking, this is my typical tune.  When the owner went and rode it he was absolutely amazed at the driveability difference between the basemap and the dyno map.  I can not really say that V-Tune did not work but the wavy/dippy line was the same as the baseline tune file.  After my dyno tune it is as smooth as silk.  My method of removing sensors and tuning has proven this over and over again.  I have no reason to change my methods until someone can prove or show me a better method.  Again MasterTune worked great with the Dyno and my sensors.

Ed

[FLTRI]

Ed,
Thanks for the info. Just a question regarding timing though. If I understand what you said, you did not maximize the timing when you did the V-Tune but did when you did you normal tune. I have noticed the timing, if not maximized (mostly advanced), presents a light surge that seem to go away after timing adjustments are completed. Do you think the bike would have run smoother if the V-Tune would have included the same timing improvements you do on your normal tune?
Also, when you refer to wavey lines are you referring to WOT tuning? I'm understand the V-tune will not maximize WOT tuning and that still need to happen separately?
Thanks,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Not only have we done the V-tune calibrations and back checked them with Lab equipment we have hundreds of customers that have tuned there own bike after a so called dyno tune to have a better running bike but one that also gets better fuel economy. How do you think we learned about the problems with the cheap Bosch sensors? The hard way, back in automobiles of the late 80's and early 90's. They just do not do what you’re trying to say they do and it’s plain to see if you do nothing but read the Bosch documents as to why. Dave Darge and I have been personal friends for over 15 years now so I know him well; as a matter of fact I have done plenty of calibration work for him over the years. The stock switching sensors are very good at what they do and the Delphi ECM code is very good at what it does. You cannot with any accuracy tune with a cheap wide band sensor and the current aftermarket units any closer than one can do with a switching sensor when done properly. The reason I call it "Cheap" is to set it apart from the "Expensive" sensors. The cheap sensor works as advertised by Bosch perfectly but it does not work like some here are trying to say.

Mastertune does not nor do we say it does the timing or the proper AFR for anyone's build of parts. What it will do is correct the AFR to the called out AFR and do it without using the cheap wide band sensor. If you use a based calibration that we supply you will find it to be set slightly to the rich side and the timing slightly retarded and we tell everyone this. It's done as that is the safe position to be in. Too lean and too much timing can cause damage so our base calibrations are set the way they are. I have informed every dyno operator that we speak too about the issues with the cheap wide band sensor and that they need to be checked. Most do and find that what I've said is true. Herko is just one example of many that did some back to back test and found his system off by 1 AFR. You cannot fix what you do not know about and getting people to know is just what were doing.

Now let's talk about the Hot Bike magazine one since Ed has brought it up. It was not a TTS base calibration and he knows it! So why Ed did you not say that? The calibration was supplied by the people who supplied the parts that were installed. This is just the same old BS from you. Just like when you came by the booth at the show in Ohio this year and lied to me about whom you were. Since I had already been told who you were it let me know just who I was dealing with. Now I explained it to you at the show and it's also in the instructions that you need to use V-tune until all the cells show less than a 5% correction. The instructions say that it typically takes 2 times but may take more, so again you did not follow the instructions. The instructions also talk about how to work on the timing curve and the PE curve too but you skipped those parts as well.

Mastertune will not do what a tuner knows (or should know) to do. A good tuner can always tune in the bike to get the last little bit of power and economy out of the bike and it can be done on the dyno or on a closed course. The dyno will make it quicker to do but it can and has been done without them for years. Can you take a base TTS calibration and use V-tune to tune in your bike........ you bet ya! I've said it over and over again that it will get you 85% of the way and if you want the last bit take it too a tuner. Many have done just that but many have also followed the directions and said for themselves that it was good enough for them without the dyno tune.

Yes, making something that works like Mastertune/Vtune pisses some dyno operators off as it takes away some of there customers and that's just the way it is. Some will learn to embrace it while others will refuse to say it works. It's not the only way to do it but just the way we chose to make it so more people could tune there own bikes and get a nice running bike.

[nc-renegade]

Yes, making something that works like Mastertune/Vtune pisses some dyno operators off as it takes away some of there customers and that's just the way it is. Some will learn to embrace it while others will refuse to say it works. It's not the only way to do it but just the way we chose to make it so more people could tune there own bikes and get a nice running bike.

Yes, and this is the same reason some folks do not like the T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Steve, when you announced the TTS, you stated an upgrade path would be available for owners of the SERT....well you changed your mind and frankly this is one reason I have not used your product.

[Steve Cole]

We have not changed our mind on the upgrade path. We just have not got everything finished to support it yet. We are currently working on an update for Mastertune that I thought would be released already but it's not. As soon as that is released the update for SERT owners for 2005 and newer bikes will be released. The update for older Delphi bikes (<2005) is what is on hold currently and this is due to the lack of interest at this point in time. If we see that there is a real interest we will do it but so far we have received less than 5 people that would like to do it and that just does not allow for us to do it for that, unless we use it as fill in work. Right now we have plenty to do and with new bikes due out shortly that's going to take a bunch of our time to get calibrations ready for them.

As for the Tmax and others they all have there place. The only feature I disagree with on them is the use of the cheap wide band and trying to tell people that it will correct to +/- .2 AFR over the entire operating range. I know this is not true and I have told people that have them to setup there bike and then come back into the software and limit the amount they can adjust. This will help in the long term problems with these sensors. The other choice would be to adjust them in and then remove the sensors and set the software to not adjust. The PC-V also disconnects the factory O2's so it disables some of the built in protection and the ability for the factory ECM to correct. None of these units that I know of use the sensor as Bosch calls out and by that I mean measures the necessary information to make proper corrections so the sensor can do it's job correctly.

[FLTRI]

T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Simply put, you can't include alpha-n EFI control systems (over 25 years old) and refer to them as advanced technology.

[eddfive]

Not hiding anything, the calibration used was a Yuill Bros. SERT calibration that was converted to an .MT7 TTS calibration.  It is a standard calibration in the MasterTune line up YA176-000-A1.  This what I was told about the calibration and how it came to be in Mastertune.  Correct me if the information is incorrect.  Do not throw up smoke and try to mis-direct.  I had a badge on at the V-Twin Expo and I spent several minutes with you looking at new features of MasterTune nothing more nothing less.  I actually learned something and I thought it was a cordial meeting.

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by 85% tune.  Do you mean 85% of the AFR Table area or do you mean 85% of the area that V-Tune will reach while riding?  Clarification please.

Correct Bob, I did not change the timing curve from the base YA176-00-A1.  This calibration was developed for the combination of parts on this particular bike.  I know the AFR's would have been off but timing should have been reasonably close.  My error on this I did not optimize the timing tables to the V-Tune.  I only changed the timing curve to what I use when I do the dyno tune.  You are correct this could of had some inpact on the way the curves looked and also driveability.  I look at dyno curves for all throttle sites plus WOT.  What I saw with the base map and the V-Tuned base map was a lot different than when I tuned it with the dyno and my sensors. My suggestion to you would be to give V-Tune a try on your Dyno and see if it works out for you.  I am not sure of your exact method of tuning so it may work.  I have not been able to correlate it very well to my method of tuning or final results.

[nc-renegade]

We have not changed our mind on the upgrade path. We just have not got everything finished to support it yet. We are currently working on an update for Mastertune that I thought would be released already but it's not. As soon as that is released the update for SERT owners for 2005 and newer bikes will be released.

Great, I look forward to this release (mine is 2005).  I also will add the 2 wire sensors needed for the V-Tune, from what I've read here, it should work??

[nc-renegade]

T-Max, Twin-Tech and PCV.  Technology advances and it is really that simple.

Simply put, you can't include alpha-n EFI control systems (over 25 years old) and refer to them as advanced technology.

Sure I can, but I did not say advanced technology.  I said "technology advances".  Big difference, and that was Steve's point as well.

Certainly you would agree that today's alpha-n designs are far different than 25 years ago?  By applying today's technology in microprocessor design and "cheap" wideband sensors, technology has enabled them to perform well.  Which mine does.

I am still and have always been open to try new systems and that is why I look forward to an affordable upgrade path for my SERT dongle.  I would like to try out Mastertune V-Tune technology.

I like being self-reliant, hence my decision to use the T-Max on my bike.  I do have access to a dyno with inertia brake.  I want to try out the TTS on my bike, then put it on the dyno and see the difference.  I think the TTS will dial in the AFR fine, though like the T-Max I suspect you will need a dyno to really dial in timing.

I am for any system that puts the decision making on who can work on the bike in the bike owner's hands instead of specialists.

[Blackbaggr]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?


...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

[FLTRI]

I am for any system that puts the decision making on who can work on the bike in the bike owner's hands instead of specialists.

I understand.

[Scramjet]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?

...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

DSanchez,

Not Steve or John but I do cut and paste timing tables from map to map with MasterTune.  It is very easy.  Click on the upper left corner to highlight the whole map and hit ctrl-C then go to your current map and click the upper left corner and hit ctrl-V.  Done.

Just be aware that the RPM break points are not the same on every map.

B

[Steve Cole]

The bike in question was a Yuill Bros. package, TTS had nothing to do with it and the base calibration was supplied by them. It was a calibration they supplied and You were told that, so it has nothing to do with it other than you trying to imply something that was and is not true. This was for a package they (yuill bros) have made up with there true dual exhaust, cams and A/C. How good or bad the base tune is has nothing to do with Mastertune at all. We have included there calibrations on our update service at there request just as we have and will do for other manufactures of parts. Your the one with all the smoke and mirrors. At the show in the booth you made sure to keep your badge turn upside down such that your name could not be seen and when I asked you, you said in you exact words "I'm no body, just do tuning for myself" when in truth you sell your services tuning.

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas. The data that is collected is used to correct the VE tables. The VE tables are the correction term so that the ECM knows how much air is entering the engine But the VE table is much larger than an engine can operate in. This is done so that different engines and different engine packages will all be covered. We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, this is because it's an air cooled motor not because the ECM or the O2 sensor cannot do it. Too much exhaust heat can be made too quickly under those conditions and being air cooled does not allow for it to be removed fast enough. Without using the proper equipment to check for these conditions, and for safety we stop it from happening. So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected. The remainder of the data can be filled in by following the instructions included with Mastertune. Then you need to move on to correcting the Spark and PE fuel, again you can follow the instructions in Mastertune. By doing this the customer can tune 85% of the total operating area of the bike themselves.

[Blackbaggr]

Steve/Herko...

Did I read somewhere that I can cut and paste the new timing tables from "pz176 002 b1" to my almost finished calibration that started as a PZ176 000 file ?

...it looks like fairly signicant changes in timing.

DSanchez,

Not Steve or John but I do cut and paste timing tables from map to map with MasterTune.  It is very easy.  Click on the upper left corner to highlight the whole map and hit ctrl-C then go to your current map and click the upper left corner and hit ctrl-V.  Done.

Just be aware that the RPM break points are not the same on every map.

B

Thanks for the response !

[ToBeFrank]

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas.

I don't know how you can make this statement. I definitely wouldn't get Vtune data for 100% of the areas I ride in. Nor would it for any of my buddies that I ride with.

We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, ... So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected.

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables. Reply #19 by FSG in this thread, http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8918.msg93366#msg93366, shows Vtune is covering less than 60% of his VE tables. It's ironic that you're calling out eddfive as being misleading.

[Scramjet]

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables.

Frank,

Here is mine.  It goes up to 80% TP.  It is affected by altitude.  I am at about 700 ft.

B


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ToBeFrank]

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables.

Frank,

Here is mine.  It goes up to 80% TP.  It is affected by altitude.  I am at about 700 ft.

You missed my point. He was saying that because they do up to 85 MAP, that covers 85% of the VE tables. That is wrong and misleading.

Also, I didn't say Vtune would never be able to get 85%. It depends on the bike.

[eddfive]

I am going to take the low rode from here on out.  I apologize to those that were wanting real information.  I am sorry this has turned into a play on words and that Mr. Cole thinks I am a liar.  I also apologize to dsanches as this is his thread which started out about CLB's and MPG. I hope you get this figured out and if I can help in any way let me know.   I have a dyno and yes I now tune for a living.  I use whatever tuning device the customer has, really makes no difference to me.  Yes, I will make recommendations if asked.

I just want everyone to not lower their expectations and have a manufactrer of a product tell you it is good enough or make it sound like you will get your bike tuned at a high elvel when you may not.  None of us expect this with our cars so why should "good enough" be acceptable with a Harley.  Each bike I tune is different and I try to the best of my ability tp get the bike to run as good as it can.  Yes, I do get bikes back occasionally and yes I do fix them or adjust them.

If anyone would like to see data that I have or ask me any question about tuning I can be reached at ed@thedynodifference.com.  I will respond if I am able or I will tell you I do not know.  I still learn on every bike I tune as each one has its own personality.

Ed

[Steve Cole]

When a bike owner rides his/her bike the engine only operates in certain areas, collecting Vtune data covers 100% of those areas.

I don't know how you can make this statement. I definitely wouldn't get Vtune data for 100% of the areas I ride in. Nor would it for any of my buddies that I ride with.

We do not allow the engine to run above 85kPa at 14.6 AFR, ... So this means that we can correct the VE tables for 85% of the area directly from the data collected.

Your 85% figure here is misleading and wrong. You're comparing the AFR table, which has a MAP x-axis, to the VE table, which has a TPS x-axis. Getting 85% area on the AFR table is not the same as getting 85% area on the VE tables. As you've already stated, we're tuning the VE tables so that is the important area metric to look at. On my bike Vtune would cover no more than maybe 50% of the VE tables. Reply #19 by FSG in this thread, http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8918.msg93366#msg93366, shows Vtune is covering less than 60% of his VE tables. It's ironic that you're calling out eddfive as being misleading.

I can backup each and every statement that I have said. If you read the instructions and do what is told you can tune 85% of the bikes running range. Yes, the VE table is based on TPS but let's look at that so that Frank and others can learn. If your at sea level the MAP kPa will run from about 25 - 100 kPa on a HD engine, based on the load on the motor. The TPS will be 0 - 100%. Once the MAP reads 100 kPa no matter how much you turn the throttle the airflow through the engine does not change at a given RPM. So since we measure up to 85 kPa and calibrate for that you have the information you need to dial the VE tables in by following the instructions. Let's use 1250 RPM for an example, at this RPM your going to hit 85 kPa about 10% TPS so the vtune data will get you to there and give you the proper VE for that. Before 15% TPS your at 100 kPa another words max airflow at this RPM. So what do you think will be the proper VE value to fill in for 15 - 100% TPS? Since its at max airflow it will be the same value over and over again! So you take the value you have at 10% TPS (85 kPa) and use it over again. You can look at the trend from the 5%, 7% and 10% TPS and follow that for the 15% TPS but then use that new value over and over again. This will get you within a few percent of the proper value which is just as accurate as you can get on the dyno with the cheap wide band sensors! Now let's move to 6000' instead of sea level. At this altitude you will see 25 - 83 kPa for the engine MAP values. Here you can tune near 100% with Vtune and have to fill no cells in. This process is covered in the instructions.

So which tuneup is correct and the answer is they both are because you have tuned to within the accuracy of the system itself but you need to follow the instructions! So my figures are not mislead or wrong at all.

My issue with ED is simple, he comes to a show and turn his badge upside down and try's to mislead me with his statements, comes on a thread about tuning and brings in BS about wide band sensors then attaches a document that is wrong and does it time and time again after we've had the same discussion about the issues with the cheap wide band sensor. Then he try's to say that a TTS supplied tune is wrong when he knows full well and good TTS did not supply the tune.  Then he goes on, on how his tuneup worked better but fails say he did not follow the directions with the product and expects it to work properly! After all Frank you were the one that posted the link to the factory documents that I showed  everyone where Bosch clearly shows what the sensor does. I have repeatedly said that I wish the sensors would work better or that the aftermarket would do what Bosch calls out for but they do not, and there is nothing you nor I can do about that. What I can do is inform people how they really work and back it up with facts and this is just what I have done here.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Next...      I mean this in a good way. 

[sportygordy]

Here is some good reading on the 'cheap Bosch sensor" 


www.performancetrends.com/wide_band_uego.htm

[FLTRI]

I especially like this bit of info:

"Notes on the Sensor:

You can typically tell if a sensor is starting to fail if it is very slow to respond to changes in A/F, like from blipping the throttle, or slow to show proper signals during warm-up (system power on but engine not running).  The response will continue to slow until finally there is no response from the sensor.  Running the sensor in "clean" exhaust for a while can partially restore a sensor.  See Note below about "cleaning".

The sensor contains a ceramic module and should not be subject to mechanical or thermal shock or it may be damaged.  Thermal shock would occur if liquid drops of water were to contact the sensor, like if a sampling trap for the DT2-AFR Remote sampler were to over fill.

The sensor is not designed for operation on leaded fuels, doing so will shorten sensor life.

Long term running in the rich region (Lambda < 0.95) will shorten sensor life, running very rich will dramatically reduce sensor life.

High exhaust temperatures (over 850 deg C, 1560 deg F) will shorten sensor life.

Engine oil consumption at a rate greater than 1 quart per1,000 miles will shorten sensor life.

Do not run the engine with the UEGO sensor installed without power applied to the controller and the sensor plugged in.

It may be possible to "clean" sensors if you run them in a modern, production car with good emissions, with the proper DT2-AF1, DT2-AF2 or DT2-AFG controller connected.  This must be done before the sensor has completely failed.

A good rule of thumb for sensor life is:  A sensor will last about as long as your spark plugs.  If your spark plugs are fouled by lead or very rich running, you sensor is likely to have failed also."