Best tuning software?

[Phat Black]

I have two different scenarios, the first is a 2010 FLSTFB  hot rod / bar hopper.  120 C.I. 12.1 compression, 678 lift with ported MCA heads.

The other being a 12 FLHX.    103 C.I. with 255 cams, SE A/C and V&H 2 into 1.   I currently have the SE PRO Race Tuner for both bikes.  I'm really wanting to learn how to do basic tuning on my bikes.   Leaving the really in depth stuff to the pros.    I enjoy working on them almost as much as riding them.    With that being said.... What is the best tuning software for each scenario?   Performance wise and user friendly. 


Thanks

[UltraNutZ]

the "best" is relevant to the time you want to spend and the money you want to spend.

If you want to tune the bikes and ride them, then dial up your favorite local tuner, ask him/her what he/she wants to use and go with it.

If you want to tinker, then WB pointed out only 1 (favorite obviously) of the top tuners, the others being TTS, SE, DirectLink, etc.  They're all more than capable in the right hands.  Which is more suited for you is only something you can figure out for yourself; all are useless unless you're willing to learn and then spend the effort/time in doing so.  You're not going to get a bike dialed in with street tuning on 2 or 3 street runs, I don't care what anyone tells you.    PV has it's benefits as well as it's limitations just like TTS, DL, and SE devices do.

IMO, the SE tuning devices you already have are more than adequate in the right hands to get both bikes dialed in the way they should be.

[Phat Black]

Ultranutz... Thanks for the insight.   That's kind of the answer I was expecting.  It's just you read all the talk about different softwares and don't see much about the SEPST.   Didn't know if I should look into something else that's out there or stick with what I have.   

Whittlebeast.... I looked at the link you provided and it sounds pretty good.   Just need to decide if it's worth the extra money to replace what I already have.   

Thanks for everyone's input.   

[laserp]

A nice option, if you have the money and the ability to learn it, is the Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan 3+ABS Kit. It has all you need for data logging with wide band O2 sensors. That's what I use on both my bikes, which are similar to yours, a 117 softy @11.5 bar hopper, and a 103 bagger, with some upgrades. Throw in mytune software, which takes your logged data and updates your last map with it, and you're in business.
They real challenge from here, without a professional tuner, is to get a good spark map to start with, but those aren't too easy to get. To me, this is the heart of the tune. It's fairly easy to dial in the AFR's with the Twin Tech tuner.
Laser

[N-gin]

I think the power vision will best suit you. It's easy to use, has a screen to log into, and does most of the work for you.
I personally use TTS with WeGo3D

[Admiral Akbar]

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

[BUBBIE]

Was Looking here on Jamie's Business;

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,84506.0.html

Kinda like the Dobeck gen4 idea: tuning closed loop and sampling the AFR n Changing values Live,  using the 02 Bungs... Dobecks unit only did the front 02 with the Bosch wideband O2 sensor... You could do Instant AFR changes with a button up or down Anytime...I did some Beta on it...

signed....BUBBIE 

[hrdtail78]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

[Coyote]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

[hrdtail78]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

That system does NOT run full time closed loop.  The Delphi system was not meant to run full time close loop.  DJ did not change it so it would.  I don't care what is on their web site or anybody else's.

[UltraNutZ]

Ultranutz... Thanks for the insight.   That's kind of the answer I was expecting.  It's just you read all the talk about different softwares and don't see much about the SEPST.   Didn't know if I should look into something else that's out there or stick with what I have.   

Whittlebeast.... I looked at the link you provided and it sounds pretty good.   Just need to decide if it's worth the extra money to replace what I already have.   

Thanks for everyone's input.   

If you're getting them professionally tuned, then as long as your tuner knows the SE product, I'd stick with what I have.  He'll be able to dial them in without issue with the SE.
If you're going to tune it yourself, then SE IMO is the most difficult to use in street tuning and I'd look at another solution that's more user friendly.

[tqjunkie]

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

[UltraNutZ]

PV can be moved to another bike with a license file purchase.

[Admiral Akbar]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

How do they work then? 

[Admiral Akbar]

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

[rbabos]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

How do they work then?

Combo of open and closed, RPM MAP determined within the calibration I guess.
Ron

[tqjunkie]

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

In my case I already have one of the original black tts that is married to the ecm but it is a bit of PIA for self tuning so would like to get something that is easier and I can change parts without the need for a dyno and when I get a new bike I will put the stock ecm with tts tune back in which is a marginal tune but works and of course give the black box to the new owner.

[whittlebeast]

Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

[Admiral Akbar]

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

In my case I already have one of the original black tts that is married to the ecm but it is a bit of PIA for self tuning so would like to get something that is easier and I can change parts without the need for a dyno and when I get a new bike I will put the stock ecm with tts tune back in which is a marginal tune but works and of course give the black box to the new owner.

Tmax would probably be good for you then.. If you are doing something like pipes/mufflers or even cams that are close, drop the parts in then ride. Post process the changes back into the ECM.. Simple stuff, I don't change the map..

[hrdtail78]

Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop.  Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.   

[Admiral Akbar]

Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop.  Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?   

[hrdtail78]

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?

Not at all.  Yes, that widens the range of the possibility of running closed loop. 

Key Features
•Allows the factory ECM to interpret and use wideband O2 sensor signals*
•Target fuel table from the calibration/tune is achieved in real time
•Retains OEM closed loop, adaptive fuel control strategy
•Learns and uses VE table corrections as you ride
•Does NOT interfere with dealer diagnostic/service tools
•Includes OEM style connectors to plug into factory O2 harness, either 2 or 4 pin versions
•Fits 2007 and newer Harley-Davidson® Bikes

* Requires Power Vision Target Tune specific calibration

[GregOn2Wheels]

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

Closed loop, open loop - whatever. The bottom line is "Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned..."  I've been running Target Tune since it was introduced and my experience with it is EXACTLY the same as Keith's - some effort/learning required and the results being VERY good!

[q1svt]

Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop. Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?

  he missed a lot more than just WB sensors...

funny, I thought close loop always runs from the table values???   kinda why there are long & short term learning that updates the table values 

Like ION Sensing never affects the actual combustion event where it detected the spark knock... but updates/pulls spark from future timing events.

[whittlebeast]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

[q1svt]

"If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used"

Okay ThunderMax [TMax] current version of products...

"There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running."
"Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors."
Okay so what...  FWIW, the WB sensor is providing data all of the time... Depending on the specific closed loop tuning product, that manufacturer decides what tables can/will be revised. 


"Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's."  [a new one for the record books]
"Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop."
As stated in reply# 23 ; close loop uses the table values all of the time... the long & short term learning is used to revise the tables.   


"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

"Accel table" 
TMax uses an Accel table, no WB close loop needed...

"Decel"
TMax uses three values & tables if it's turned on:
Decel Fuel Cut [on/off], Decel Fuel  RPM Low, RPM High & Decel Post Fuel Enrichment, and does update other tables with WB closed loop data.

"Warm up"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

"crank to run, cranking"
TMax uses Initial Fuel Pulse & Cranking Fuel table Values, no WB  close loop needed

"What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data, and the Bosch WB sensor uses its heater controller & algorithms to maintain its sensor within operating temperature range.



q1svt = Comments are in BLUE

[rbabos]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

True but they don't have that fkd up Sportster code. They have to be the worst running efi bikes on the planet.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

This bike was tuned with Vision and then the TT was installed.  Probably the same as the others mentioned in this thread.  But non of them have had AFR validated any other way.  There is no doubt in my mind that the TT system will maintain a tune.  That is different than setting a target and getting it to tune in.

What makes the best tuning software?  I say ease of operation, useful tables that actually address the problems that are occured during tuning and good direction so you can understand what is what with a accuarate discription of each table and how to use it.  Of course the more control left up to the tuner the better.  Automation isn't everything and can actually cause damage.  I will also add that another huge plus is.  If you can talk to the guy that actually writes in the code when problems do pop up, and also run a dyno.   Customer service means more to me than getting a good starter cal.  Sometimes because of the combination I have wanted some things changed in the back ground of the cal.  Email and 15 minutes later.  I have the new cal with the changes I want.  Example of this is:  I wanted a 176 cal that allowed me to target fuel, map VE's and timing tables for a 8000 rpm redline.  Remember that there is more than 2 systems out there and I am including them all.

This opinion is based on 8 years of tuning EFI bikes day in and day out with all the tuning systems.  Not based on what I am trying to sell.  Not based on the click of HTT and confirmtion bias because of what I have spent my money on. 

Good luck

[q1svt]

I will also add that another huge plus is.  If you can talk to the guy that actually writes in the code when problems do pop up, and also run a dyno.   Customer service means more to me than getting a good starter cal.  Sometimes because of the combination I have wanted some things changed in the back ground of the cal.  Remember that there is more than 2 systems out there and I am including them all.

This opinion is based on 8 years of tuning EFI bikes day in and day out with all the tuning systems.  Not based on what I am trying to sell.  Not based on the click of HTT and confirmtion bias because of what I have spent my money on. 

Sure sound like you're sell too...

But to your points, your brand in not alone, where I haven't spoken to Kevin Dudley, the TMax software engineer, I have had discussions with the ThunderMax dyno tuner that builds the maps and has the engineering version of the software    He's provided map changes outside of what's generally available & information on key internal processes.  A simple email with/without a data log get's a response back within 24 hours and I'm not one of their dealers, just a DIY guy...

AND, there have been many customer service posts, emails, maps & calls by Jamie for TT.  If a buddy talks me out of my TMax, there will be a PV TT going in even thro the bikes a 2006 [not a supported year, sorta] cause it's fun to play with good tuner products.

[whittlebeast]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

there are likely to be hundreds of thousands of HDs (tuned and not tuned) out there running perfectly fine in closed loop but you can't?   

True but they don't have that fkd up Sportster code. They have to be the worst running efi bikes on the planet.
Ron

I agree that the Sportster was the worst base code that I have ever seen.  Sad that it could have been fixed if they wanted to fix it.  Dyno jet fixed it when they did the TT code.  I could feel it from the seat in the first mike and proved my hunch in a few min looking at the logs.

[glens]

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

[Admiral Akbar]

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

With the better sampling LSU4 sensor, and it's blazin speed of 4 times a second.  Look at all the bad sampling it will miss during combustion events.  This really helps when filtering data to make pretty graphs.  Then you can add in that MAPxRPM will get you the airflow of any engine and then it just takes the time to tune it until the shared intake quits sharing air and the injector fuel only makes it into the cylinder it was meant for.  This can only happen after the LSU4's are installed because the extra wires help balance your injectors until they are matched.

All you have to do is slow down the loop control functions to something slower than the response than the sensor.. One thing that is interesting in the specs I've seen for the LSU4 is that they seem to spec a responses based as group delay.. But the actual frequency response is higher than the group delay..  In other words, you may be able to sample 10 times a second with the sensor but you need to remember that the current sample is only good for conditions that occurred 1/4 of s second ago.. So the software needs to remember what was going on 1/4 second ago and figure out if that the parameters at that time need changing...


Not sure what you mean by extra wires... 

[hrdtail78]

A bit more's different in that setup than a mere change in sensor style, bet ya.

With the better sampling LSU4 sensor, and it's blazin speed of 4 times a second.  Look at all the bad sampling it will miss during combustion events.  This really helps when filtering data to make pretty graphs.  Then you can add in that MAPxRPM will get you the airflow of any engine and then it just takes the time to tune it until the shared intake quits sharing air and the injector fuel only makes it into the cylinder it was meant for.  This can only happen after the LSU4's are installed because the extra wires help balance your injectors until they are matched.

All you have to do is slow down the loop control functions to something slower than the response than the sensor.. One thing that is interesting in the specs I've seen for the LSU4 is that they seem to spec a responses based as group delay.. But the actual frequency response is higher than the group delay..  In other words, you may be able to sample 10 times a second with the sensor but you need to remember that the current sample is only good for conditions that occurred 1/4 of s second ago.. So the software needs to remember what was going on 1/4 second ago and figure out if that the parameters at that time need changing...


Not sure what you mean by extra wires...

My post got censors and taken down, but you quote it.  A little confused on how to proceed.  Don't want to take a bunch of time if it is just going to shed anyway.

[hrdtail78]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it. 

[Admiral Akbar]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it.

One thing to note about Tmax is that it is clueless about things like VE and MAP.. It is really only concerned with throttle position and RPM. All it remembers is injector pulse width and corrections it needs to apply to the PW..  I guess you could say that injector PW and with the learned corrections is really another version of VE but in a simpler form.. Don't need to do any calculations when using PW.. The only time the Tmax looks at AFR is when it compares it's sampled AFR to a value in the tables to see if the injector PW needs update.. Remember Tmax is full time closed loop. It is always looking at sampled AFR and looking to see if an injector PW needs change.. I'm not sure what the algorithms are but they seem to work pretty well.

[hrdtail78]

"How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?"
TMax uses the table values, and the values are revised via the WB closed loop data

That's pretty vague.  TT does somewhat the same, but it takes the WB closed loop data from lower KPA areas and extends, interpolates, or blends them out to 100kpa.  Same as it does for higher RPM areas.  Yes, the WB sensor is still putting out a voltage, but the ECM isn't coded to pay attention to it.

One thing to note about Tmax is that it is clueless about things like VE and MAP.. It is really only concerned with throttle position and RPM. All it remembers is injector pulse width and corrections it needs to apply to the PW..  I guess you could say that injector PW and with the learned corrections is really another version of VE but in a simpler form.. Don't need to do any calculations when using PW.. The only time the Tmax looks at AFR is when it compares it's sampled AFR to a value in the tables to see if the injector PW needs update.. Remember Tmax is full time closed loop. It is always looking at sampled AFR and looking to see if an injector PW needs change.. I'm not sure what the algorithms are but they seem to work pretty well.

I have no time with a Tmax.  I have planned on making the school the past couple of years as soon as I can catch a break at the shop.  I don't get many calls about them but I would like to know the system.

I have tuned with direct PW control.  It is my thought that the reason VE's came about is it is easier to tune.  I don't know of any rule of thumb of how much Ms needed to be added to change a half point of fuel.  You would really have more info about the flow rate, and dead time of the injector.  Them not being linier doesn't help.  Dealing indirectly with PW through the representation of air flow by VE's does have a formula that is close 95% of the time.  PC is a good example of numbers that don't mean anything and you just change and send until you get the AFR you want, and like the direct PW control of other EFI systems.  Changes can be made live.  I'm happy not guessing PW and trimming rear cylinders of the front PW ever again.

[glens]

...

"Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's."  [a new one for the record books]

... 
q1svt = Comments are in BLUE

Maybe it's not the best word, but I've always used "dither" to describe the mechanism.

Off the top of my head I can think of two ways to achieve a desired outcome in a situation like this.  You could compare the sensor voltage "now" with the value (or range) tabulated for "these" conditions and try to (1) zero in on and maintain a discrete value, or (2) make some controlled swings back and forth across the target.

In the case of direct connection to narrow-band sensors, what with their characteristic response curves, I'd think it would be more productive to use the latter option.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a typical broad-band sensor controller do the same with its pump current to manage the reference air for the sensing chamber of its narrow-band element.

This part is more for the other thread running now, but it wouldn't make much sense to dither the injector pulse width, as for use of a narrow-band, while using a broad-band (closed-loop controlled) sensor which is doing its own dithering internally (and likely much faster since that's the only thing it's busy with, assuming comparable instruction execution times between the systems).  If you're dithering the fuel at the same time the sensor controller is dithering its air, both mechanisms could be either in phase or out, quite likely variably, for a real mixed bag of results.

[hrdtail78]

Maybe it's not the best word, but I've always used "dither" to describe the mechanism.

Off the top of my head I can think of two ways to achieve a desired outcome in a situation like this.  You could compare the sensor voltage "now" with the value (or range) tabulated for "these" conditions and try to (1) zero in on and maintain a discrete value, or (2) make some controlled swings back and forth across the target.

In the case of direct connection to narrow-band sensors, what with their characteristic response curves, I'd think it would be more productive to use the latter option.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a typical broad-band sensor controller do the same with its pump current to manage the reference air for the sensing chamber of its narrow-band element.

This part is more for the other thread running now, but it wouldn't make much sense to dither the injector pulse width, as for use of a narrow-band, while using a broad-band (closed-loop controlled) sensor which is doing its own dithering internally (and likely much faster since that's the only thing it's busy with, assuming comparable instruction execution times between the systems).  If you're dithering the fuel at the same time the sensor controller is dithering its air, both mechanisms could be either in phase or out, quite likely variably, for a real mixed bag of results.

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

[whittlebeast]

That would all be fun to prove.  Simply change the injector size by 7% on a fully tuned bike to try to force the entire map to run fat.  Now go ride the bike for an hour or two killing it every 1/2 hour or so, just for fun.  Now look what the system is doing in a data log.  Look if the entire AFF scatter plots comes up close to 93 everywhere.

I did something similar to this when I found out that the VE tables had some sort of offset going on years ago.  All great fun....

Andy

[hrdtail78]

That would all be fun to prove.  Simply change the injector size by 7% on a fully tuned bike to try to force the entire map to run fat.  Now go ride the bike for an hour or two killing it every 1/2 hour or so, just for fun.  Now look what the system is doing in a data log.  Look if the entire AFF scatter plots comes up close to 93 everywhere.

I did something similar to this when I found out that the VE tables had some sort of offset going on years ago.  All great fun....

Andy

Wouldn't it be quicker to watch integrators?  100 doesn't mean it's perfect.

[joe_lyons]

Setting the lowest KPA and rpm that closed loop will work (outside of the AFR/lambda table) would help in those weird pesky spots that may have bad exhaust signal.

[Coyote]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

[hrdtail78]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data. 

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.

[Coyote]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I have to say the logs and my observations do not agree with most of these comments.    Here are some examples to show what I mean.

Here is a section of log from Olie's bike. This section shows the bike at WOT.  It's clear the bike is actively correcting the AFR here. The trims show the VEs were actually pretty far off.  PE just changes the target AFR, TT is still doing it's thing.

[attach=0]

And here is a log from startup on my 107. You can see the integrators come on while warmup is active. They also are on with my engine temp at 64 degrees F, 12 seconds after start up. You can actually here the motor smooth at when the WBs come online.

[attach=1]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

[hrdtail78]

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

Sounds like we are getting different info.  BUT to get back on topic.  It is a shame you guys have to buy another program to see the log files.  That is one of the best things about TTS.  Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

[Jamie Long]

It is a shame you guys have to buy another program to see the log files.

You can download the latest version of Dynojet PowerCore software which can be used with PV logs here http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/Software/Dynojet%20Power%20Core%20Setup%20v1.8.5687.25787.exe

Also note Target Tune absolutely is closed loop when PE fuel is active, and the closed loop temp thresholds are right there in the calibration.

Here is a screenshot of one of Coyote's TT maps that I reviewed, note closed loop min temp setting:



added screenshot

[Jamie Long]

Here is a MLVHD screenshot from a TT equipped bike during WOT upshifts under PE. Note closed loop operation (Front/Rear CLI)

[hrdtail78]

Here is a MLVHD screenshot from a TT equipped bike during WOT upshifts under PE. Note closed loop operation (Front/Rear CLI)

Will you post that data log?

The first pic has them active where the curser is but that is at 3708rpm.  What is your setting in PE mode?  Is it enabled below 4300?  Looks like it all flattens out up around 4300 to me.  True, the bike is not in PE mode at this spot. But IIRC, you keep saying it won't go CL outside of where it would normally. I'm just showing that's not the case.

Maybe, on the assumption it only reports CLI if it is using it.

The second pic does show CLI being active but the log file wont let you see more than 6%.  This isn't remembered between power cycles, but the AFF isn't doing anything?    If it is all working there.  A couple more starts and it shouldn't run rough because the AFF isn't being applied to the calibration on it's own.  AFF has no values because it was a fresh tune loaded and AFF's were reset. The bike is clearly in CL way sooner than your reported information.

I didn't know you had access to Temp in the TT calibration.  Why did you pick that temp to start close loop operation?

So, by the screen shots.  I am not coming to any conclusions.  Filtered data is too easy to arrange to show whatever.  Maybe post up the log so we can see unfiltered data.  Data is all raw and unfiltered. Olie's data file is posted up in his thread. That's where I got it.

Filtered is the wrong word.  Maybe capped?  It would be interesting how far it does stretch out without a AFF hit.

As far as what I was told by DJ, and the difference that you see in your screen shots.  That needs to be taken up with DJ.  I just reported what I was told.  You can call up and talk with the manufacture about your findings.  Been there, done that, already.  What I'm being told does match what I'm seeing.

Who did you talk to?
[/quote]

[Jamie Long]

Roy from DJ told me it works the same as with narrow bands.  Only difference is that they modify the parameter to deal with a 0-5v input and they widen the range where CL will work.  He also confirmed what I thought.  They keep all other stock parameters of the closed loop.  Meaning that DE, AE, and warm-up will all take it out of CL just like the stock strategy.  CL wont work until it see's an engine temp of 167.  I asked about PE mode.  He did some checking and told me.  PE mode will also take it out of CL.

This is why it is so important to start with a "reasonably close" calibration.  His words.

I was talking with Roy H. from Dynojet on another subject this morning and brought up your comments. You should really give him another call

[whittlebeast]

Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

Features are not free, they are just bundled.  Great is subjective, based on what you are wanting to see.

When you have a perfect product, and you do an update, is it even more perfect?

Just asken..........

[hrdtail78]

Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

Features are not free, they are just bundled.  Great is subjective, based on what you are wanting to see.

When you have a perfect product, and you do an update, is it even more perfect?

Just asken..........

Never said perfect.  I said great.  If there is improvements.  I'd say it is even greater.  Are they free?  Well, anybody can go to the website and download the latest and greatest of any of his programs.  Free of charge.  What is your definition of free?

But you are correct.  Great is subjective.  So is best, or the opinion of what is best.  I am basing my opinion on what is best by using my experience with each system that I have used.  I have more than 30 vision tunes under my belt and I can compare that to using TTS, TR, and SE.  On all different builds from 124's to force induction. I have no idea how many tunes I have done with those systems.  I lost count.  Before it is said.  You are right.  I haven't used target tune, but the counter to that is nobody in this thread has used the HD06 with analog input and Vtune3.  So what are we really getting out of these threads looking for the best of something.  Just peoples' opinions based on their confirmation bias.



 

[PoorUB]

Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

Features are not free, they are just bundled.  Great is subjective, based on what you are wanting to see.

When you have a perfect product, and you do an update, is it even more perfect?

Just asken..........

Updates don't necessarily improve the product, but the update includes compatibility for new models.

[hrdtail78]

Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

Features are not free, they are just bundled.  Great is subjective, based on what you are wanting to see.

When you have a perfect product, and you do an update, is it even more perfect?

Just asken..........

Updates don't necessarily improve the product, but the update includes compatibility for new models.

Sometimes they do improve the product.  Cam Tune data, cam shaft analyzer, EGR effect, and  Vtune histogram and all that come with that.

[FSG]

Data Master is really a great program and it is free along with all the updates.

Features are not free, they are just bundled.  Great is subjective, based on what you are wanting to see.

When you have a perfect product, and you do an update, is it even more perfect?

Just asken..........

Updates don't necessarily improve the product, but the update includes compatibility for new models.

...... and sometimes the product goes a step or two backwards.