HarleyTechTalk

I have two different scenarios, the first is a 2010 FLSTFB  hot rod / bar hopper.  120 C.I. 12.1 compression, 678 lift with ported MCA heads.

The other being a 12 FLHX.    103 C.I. with 255 cams, SE A/C and V&H 2 into 1.   I currently have the SE PRO Race Tuner for both bikes.  I'm really wanting to learn how to do basic tuning on my bikes.   Leaving the really in depth stuff to the pros.    I enjoy working on them almost as much as riding them.    With that being said.... What is the best tuning software for each scenario?   Performance wise and user friendly. 


Thanks

the "best" is relevant to the time you want to spend and the money you want to spend.

If you want to tune the bikes and ride them, then dial up your favorite local tuner, ask him/her what he/she wants to use and go with it.

If you want to tinker, then WB pointed out only 1 (favorite obviously) of the top tuners, the others being TTS, SE, DirectLink, etc.  They're all more than capable in the right hands.  Which is more suited for you is only something you can figure out for yourself; all are useless unless you're willing to learn and then spend the effort/time in doing so.  You're not going to get a bike dialed in with street tuning on 2 or 3 street runs, I don't care what anyone tells you.    PV has it's benefits as well as it's limitations just like TTS, DL, and SE devices do.

IMO, the SE tuning devices you already have are more than adequate in the right hands to get both bikes dialed in the way they should be.

Ultranutz... Thanks for the insight.   That's kind of the answer I was expecting.  It's just you read all the talk about different softwares and don't see much about the SEPST.   Didn't know if I should look into something else that's out there or stick with what I have.   

Whittlebeast.... I looked at the link you provided and it sounds pretty good.   Just need to decide if it's worth the extra money to replace what I already have.   

Thanks for everyone's input.   

A nice option, if you have the money and the ability to learn it, is the Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan 3+ABS Kit. It has all you need for data logging with wide band O2 sensors. That's what I use on both my bikes, which are similar to yours, a 117 softy @11.5 bar hopper, and a 103 bagger, with some upgrades. Throw in mytune software, which takes your logged data and updates your last map with it, and you're in business.
They real challenge from here, without a professional tuner, is to get a good spark map to start with, but those aren't too easy to get. To me, this is the heart of the tune. It's fairly easy to dial in the AFR's with the Twin Tech tuner.
Laser

I think the power vision will best suit you. It's easy to use, has a screen to log into, and does most of the work for you.
I personally use TTS with WeGo3D

Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

Was Looking here on Jamie's Business;

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,84506.0.html

Kinda like the Dobeck gen4 idea: tuning closed loop and sampling the AFR n Changing values Live,  using the 02 Bungs... Dobecks unit only did the front 02 with the Bosch wideband O2 sensor... You could do Instant AFR changes with a button up or down Anytime...I did some Beta on it...

signed....BUBBIE 

I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 08:31:17 AM
I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

Quote from: Coyote on March 03, 2016, 08:36:52 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 08:31:17 AM
I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

That system does NOT run full time closed loop.  The Delphi system was not meant to run full time close loop.  DJ did not change it so it would.  I don't care what is on their web site or anybody else's.

Quote from: Phat Black on March 01, 2016, 10:29:05 AM
Ultranutz... Thanks for the insight.   That's kind of the answer I was expecting.  It's just you read all the talk about different softwares and don't see much about the SEPST.   Didn't know if I should look into something else that's out there or stick with what I have.   

Whittlebeast.... I looked at the link you provided and it sounds pretty good.   Just need to decide if it's worth the extra money to replace what I already have.   

Thanks for everyone's input.   

If you're getting them professionally tuned, then as long as your tuner knows the SE product, I'd stick with what I have.  He'll be able to dial them in without issue with the SE.
If you're going to tune it yourself, then SE IMO is the most difficult to use in street tuning and I'd look at another solution that's more user friendly.

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 07:51:48 AM
Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

PV can be moved to another bike with a license file purchase.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 08:31:17 AM
I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

How do they work then? 

Quote from: tqjunkie on March 03, 2016, 09:47:11 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 07:51:48 AM
Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 09:58:52 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 08:31:17 AM
I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

How do they work then?

Combo of open and closed, RPM MAP determined within the calibration I guess.
Ron

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 10:01:15 AM

Quote from: tqjunkie on March 03, 2016, 09:47:11 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 07:51:48 AM
Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

In my case I already have one of the original black tts that is married to the ecm but it is a bit of PIA for self tuning so would like to get something that is easier and I can change parts without the need for a dyno and when I get a new bike I will put the stock ecm with tts tune back in which is a marginal tune but works and of course give the black box to the new owner.

Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

Quote from: tqjunkie on March 03, 2016, 11:32:37 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 10:01:15 AM

Quote from: tqjunkie on March 03, 2016, 09:47:11 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 07:51:48 AM
Another pricey option is thundermax.. Like the DTTTS ( Daytona Twin Tech Twin Scan) it's a full replacement and since it is full time closed loop ignition timing at partial throttle is important just like the DTTTS..  The good thing about Tmax is that there are a lot of higher performance maps out there.. Zippers did a bunch of higher performance motors so it not too hard to find a map that is close for throttle by cables systems.. TBW systems don't have as extensive library but they do have the 255 cam..   You don't need to use a laptop to record data to rough out a map.. You only need to connect up later and a see if changes need to be made...  Don't know if DTTTS does this or not..

http://www.thunder-max.com/

I have been debating whether to go with thundermax or the pv with target tune,the thing I like about the thundermax is I only plan to keep my bike for a couple more years and with the thundermax it is just a matter on taking it off and selling it ,with the pv it is married to the ecm  ,so that is something to think about.

If you plan to return the bike to stock. it's the way to go.. Most mild builds, you play with pipes and not have to retune.. If not going back to stock, you'll still need to find some tuner for the bike..

In my case I already have one of the original black tts that is married to the ecm but it is a bit of PIA for self tuning so would like to get something that is easier and I can change parts without the need for a dyno and when I get a new bike I will put the stock ecm with tts tune back in which is a marginal tune but works and of course give the black box to the new owner.

Tmax would probably be good for you then.. If you are doing something like pipes/mufflers or even cams that are close, drop the parts in then ride. Post process the changes back into the ECM.. Simple stuff, I don't change the map..

Quote from: whittlebeast on March 03, 2016, 12:10:57 PM
Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop.  Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.   

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 02:02:23 PM

Quote from: whittlebeast on March 03, 2016, 12:10:57 PM
Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop.  Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?   

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 05:47:45 PM

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?

Not at all.  Yes, that widens the range of the possibility of running closed loop. 

Key Features
•Allows the factory ECM to interpret and use wideband O2 sensor signals*
•Target fuel table from the calibration/tune is achieved in real time
•Retains OEM closed loop, adaptive fuel control strategy
•Learns and uses VE table corrections as you ride
•Does NOT interfere with dealer diagnostic/service tools
•Includes OEM style connectors to plug into factory O2 harness, either 2 or 4 pin versions
•Fits 2007 and newer Harley-Davidson® Bikes

* Requires Power Vision Target Tune specific calibration

Quote from: Coyote on March 03, 2016, 08:36:52 AM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 08:31:17 AM
I would stay away from anything that is advertised "full time" closed loop.  It isn't true and it isn't how things work.  If they will spin their advertisement about this.  What else are they spinning to make it sound great in the advertisement?

If you are referring to Target Tune, I have been running that in full time closed loop now for a few months on my 107. Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned including those I've had tuned on a dyno. It wasn't without some effort but the results are very good.

Closed loop, open loop - whatever. The bottom line is "Hands down, this bike runs better than any other bike I've owned..."  I've been running Target Tune since it was introduced and my experience with it is EXACTLY the same as Keith's - some effort/learning required and the results being VERY good!

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 03, 2016, 05:47:45 PM

Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 03, 2016, 02:02:23 PM

Quote from: whittlebeast on March 03, 2016, 12:10:57 PM
Jason

Almost everything I own (and most everything I tune for that matter) is full time wideband closed loop.

I would rethink your definitions of closed loop and full time.  There are several modes the ECM runs in.  Yes, closed loop mode is one, but it is not running this mode 100% of the time the bike is running.  Anybody that has tuned with narrow band sensors w/ Smart tune, Auto tune, or Vtune should understand that the ECM is not in closed loop mode 100% of anything.  Even if you are in the area that is in closed loop.  It isn't always using the feed back from the sensors.  Remember how closed loop mode works.  It wobbles or switch's.  How does this work on a WOT acceleration from 3000-6200?  It reverts back to VE tables.  Anytime it reverts back to VE tables.  It isn't running closed loop. Accel table reverts it back to VE's.  Decel reverts back to VE.  Warm up, crank to run, cranking, PE mode.........  What happens after a long, sensor cooling, decel?  Back to the VE table.

If I can talk about what is in the code of some of the tuning systems.  We could discuss how the STFT and LTFT's are set up and being used.

Did you miss that he uses wide band sensors?

  he missed a lot more than just WB sensors...

funny, I thought close loop always runs from the table values???   kinda why there are long & short term learning that updates the table values 

Like ION Sensing never affects the actual combustion event where it detected the spark knock... but updates/pulls spark from future timing events.

My Target Tune also dialed right in.  Bike runs better than ever.  With the original NB setup, I never could run closed loop.

Andy