It's sumping

[04customking]

Alright. This thing is pissing me off now. Over the winter it sumped. No problem, should have drained it so I expected it. Now that I've drained it and put new in and have it running, it only takes a few days for it to sump. Made a nice burnishing tool and used it and put in a new ball. Figured that would do it. Nope. Two days. Pulled the pump off just now. Have everything clean and apart. I can drop the ball in and I don't even need to put the spring in and when I pour even light weight fork oil in on top of it NOTHING leaks by the ball. Seems to seal perfectly. Is there another way these sump? And so quickly? Could I have a wrong pump to engine gasket on it? Are there even different ones? I have inspected the pump under a magnifying glass and can see nothing even close to worn or out of spec. I'm going to throw something very soon.

[jellero]

so does it puke out the oil when you kick it over or just plain leak?
where does oil come out? mine is leaking but not from crank breather, just sitting. j

[Little Al]

now I'm not to smart about this stuff but if oil is draining from the bag while it's just sitting there I would think the only ways that could happen would be the ball check valve in the oil pump is not seating good enough or the bypass valve in the oil pump is bad or the oil screen (witches hat) check valve or gasket is leaking.

You're probably just overlooking something simple.

[04customking]

Mine is leaking out of the breather tube. No leaks just sitting there. I have the pump apart on my kitchen table and the seats are fine. I even put the ball in and poured water in on top of the ball to see how fast it leaked by the ball and absolutely nothing leaked by. That is tight. In my mind I have to figure out the paths of all this stuff. Oil can't get to the relief valve until it gets my the check valve I don't think. I'm going out to the garage and probably pull the cam cover off and see what's going on there.

[04customking]

Well, I pulled the cover off and checked every passage and tried to find something amiss and can't. I don't know what to do. I've read all the past posts on this and still can't figure it out. I don't want to put it back together without doing something but I don't know what else to do. I'm off to get new gaskets and oil so I can try again.

[Mule]

 Is it actually sumping ? Draining from the oil tank ? Or is it just puking while it is running? Do you have the separator and separator screen installed? oem # 25275-36 & 25279-36   Good luck , hope you find the cause...Mule...

[04customking]

Yes, it's sumping. Doesn't puke while running. I thought the seat and ball had to be bad so I made a burnisher tool and did the seat and replaced the ball. Ran the bike for a few minutes and let the bike sit for two days to test it. Just kicking it over I could hear the oil being pushed to the breather tube and sur enough it was starting to leak out. I just wish I could find something to fix. Nothing looks bad.

[Little Al]

Jim, your first mistake may be working on your kitchen table, that's what I do and why I have so many problems and you have such a nice garage/shop too!

sorry, I know exactly the frustration you feel, just trying to break it for you with a little humor.

again, I'm not that smart and have some questions going myself on that oh so mysterious to me oiling system but you might need to get back to the simple basics. You probably pegged it with the check valve. your water test is the reverse of the flow of the oil during normal operation right? maybe it's the spring that holds the ball against the seat? I'm taking stabs here with my limited knowledge but usually your first impression of what's wrong is the best one, be 100% sure that's not where the problem is before moving onto your next best guess.

[Little Al]

I'm confused. when I asked if it's draining from the bag just sitting there you said no but now your saying after letting the bike sit 2-3 days kicking it you hear the oil sloshing around in the crankcase.

so if it's draining from the bag and slowly filling up the crankcase I say you gotta go back and check all the parts that would allow the bag to drain into the motor:

feed side check valve
pressure relief valve
breather check valve

take a shot of green, smoke a cigarette, then go back at it. you KNOW it has to be one of just a few possibilities

[04customking]

Al, sorry for confusing what you were asking me. OK, it's all back together, never found a thing, until..... Put the oil in, thinking whether I have everything done when I look at something that NEVER occured to me. I believe, now stay with me, that the crankcase is not filling up while the bike is sitting. It's filling up while running. Remember, I've only had this running in the garage, not down the road so the amount of run time is not long. The cheap ass chrome oil lines I bought never came close to fitting with the exhaust I'm running so I had to "reshape" them alot. Look at these pics. The return line is bent to much near the tank severely restricting how much oil can return to the tank. Some surely does but I don't think it can keep up with the demand. I can't check for return in the tank because of the Paughco oil tank with filter. Does this seem like it makes sense? I'm thinking I need a new design line here. Please tell me it makes sense. The bent is, in my opinion, much worse than the pics show it. The line would have gone right through the center of the exhaust the way it came and I wanted to get it behind the pipe. To ambitious of a desire I think. Anyways, I'm not starting it until I can come up with a new line.

[Little Al]

you may be on to something there. I believe the scavenger side sucks oil out of the motor at a higher rate then the feed side pushes in, maybe not more pressure, but more volume. My thinking it would have to be that way or running the crankcase would always be filling up with oil. makes sense right?

you have fittings laying around to make up some hoses just to get unrestricted flow back to the tank? just as a way of troubleshooting the problem.

btw I'm in the process of installing those same cheap oil lines. I got the dope on the way the lines are supposed to be run (see my thread on it) but I'm having the same trouble with fitment. the case to tank line is too long and can't get it to fit right behind the (stock) rear header pipe and line up even with quite a few "custom" bends. I use a plumbers spring tubing bender to help prevent kinks. the bag to feed is too long too and I'm having the same difficulty there. Nothing even comes close for my external (oem style) oil filter even though I bought a line set specifically made for it. I almost want to give up and run hose but I'll give it another try tonight before I escape that way.

[04customking]

Well, I couldn't stand it. I figured that line was junk anyways so I took some clamps to it to try and open it up. Then I got the courage with nobody as a backup to take it down the road. Let's just say it's not my Road King. I've got plenty to do yet before that bike is going very far. In fact, I'm not sure I'm having fun anymore.

[jellero]

i'm following this thread as i have to deal with mine as soon as i can get my other bikes out of the way, clean the pan up and get it on the stand. that bike is incredibly clean by the way...j

[cosmiccowboy]

I'm by no means an expert on this but do you think oil is returning to your engine through the return or the vent line? I always thought the return line was closest to the seat post and the vent was on the outside nipple. Maybe it is syphoning back while the engine is off.

[panpered]

I think you have to separate the problem to the two potential sides and test each one.  If you can drain the case before starting this, that would be great.  Make sure the oil tank is full.  Drain the oil tank and measure the amount that comes out.  Pour it back in and don't run the bike.  Wait a day and drain and measure again and compare the amounts.  If you lost oil, there is only one way that can happen and you just follow the parts from the oil tank to the oil pump as others have already said.  If the oil tank did not drain down and you measure the same amount of oil the second time, it is time to move on to the scavenging part of the system.  I have the advantage of being able to open the top of my tank and look in while the bike is running and see a nice gush of oil coming back in.  I am not sure how you will solve that one except to fill the tank up full and route a hose off to a place where you can capture the oil and visibly see how much oil is returning while the bike is running.  Regardless, you can at least eliminate the draining past the check ball issue first.

I had a nightmare happen with my crankcase screen (this is the witches hat as some refer to it as).  When I put it together, the manual showed two cork seals.  When I put it in, it seem too tight to get the cap on, but I decided to just keep cranking on it until the cap seated.  Big mistake.  The cork seals swelled and in their over-compressed state, they actually closed up in the middle.  No oil to my heads and I stuck a valve.  I had to fix the valve and then I went with the later style that just uses a screen with a spring around it that holds the screen in place.

Don't lose faith.  I have been fighting hard starting for months.  I took the carb off several times and went over every thing in detail.  I made sure points were gapped, ignition timing spot on, everything.  Still hard to start.  This morning I decided I better check the solid lifters.  Bingo.  The guy that did my head work had the pushrods too tight and now that I fixed it, it runs like a dream.  Amazing how one thing I did not check cost me so much time.  That is why I am suggesting an approach that proves whether it is draining down.

[04customking]

Thanks for the insight. The lines are run correctly. Vent line is the closest to the seat post. I'm making new lines up tomorrow. I might need some time away from this thing to regain my composure. Took the road king out toady for awhile and that helped some. Thanks for the "clean" comment J. We'll see how long that lasts. Panpered, good ideas. I need to make the lines anyways so that will get done first and then I will more than likely do as you suggest. Thanks.

[chris haynes]

If the oil level in you tank is above the return line for the breather, oil will run into you engine.

[MBSKEAM]

 pull the line, cut it and use a piece of rubber tube and hose clamps to test and then dump the oil, put in 4 quarts of oil, then mark your dip stick with a file, put a file mark all the way around the full oil level

mbskeam

[jellero]

i went through trying to bend my oil lines and ended up
with the same situation. those plumber coils are for copper
and aluminum, not steel. my pipe was in the way and i had
to rig up what msbeam suggested for awhile, then found
a stock filter in shed and went to new lines and new 2 into
2 exhaust, problem solved. it's easier to change the big
part of bend than the top by the way (i found this out after
kinking the top).j

[Little Al]

Jim,

after struggling with those damn cheap lines this was the solution I came up with. it fairly neat and I'm satisfied.Eventually I'll get those fancy hose clamps with the covers. For sure there are no kinks or too sharp bends to impede the flow of oil

[04customking]

I was originally going to make new lines today but after a crappy night I've decided that bike needs a time out for awhile. Screw it. Al, on your generator thread I commented that you needed thre more days. You got the joke I hope.

[MBSKEAM]

or you can get these, these have been on my bike for a long time, had one get a leak, they sent me a new one for free.....very cool
the name is...

http://www.shocking.com/~dmusca/index.html

http://www.shocking.com/~dmusca/oil3.html

B: Part#  1145          $81.00
4 piece oil line for HD with wrap around oil tank in rigid frame for pan & knucklehead engines using stock oil filters mounted in front of the rear exhaust pipe. '36 - '57. WILL NOT work with regulator mounted on back of engine.


mbskeam

[04customking]

I can't make either of those links work.

[MBSKEAM]

when you cuser over the link does it high light and get big?
it works at my end....
try this as a search.....   M u s c a r e l l a ' s


mbskeam

[04customking]

Yes, it get's big, turns blue and when I click it takes a while and says internet explorer can not display the webpage. When I search what you said I get pizza places. Just tried Mozilla and it works. Damn IE