I am trying to write an EFI general tuning guide....

[whittlebeast]

Here is where it is at this point. (still a work in process)

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Here is a list of subjects I still want to take on.  Are there any any other combinations or subjects that you guys think I should try to cover?

Fuel tuning with narrow bands and open loop
Fuel tuning with narrow bands and closed loop without Long Term Fuel Trims
Fuel tuning with narrow bands and closed loop with Long Term Fuel Trims

Fuel tuning with wide bands and open loop
Fuel tuning with wide bands and closed loop without Long Term Fuel Trims
Fuel tuning with wide bands and closed loop with Long Term Fuel Trims

Collecting data
Filtering out data
Extrapolating VE Tables
VE Table smoothing

Tuning with live autotuning on Dyno or street
Closed loop on race motors
Data rates
AE tuning and why is it even needed
DE tuning
How to figure out if you need Alpha-N tuning

[masstch]

Please hurry!! I need this!!
Thank you for taking this on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[98fxstc]

I read Basic Tuning 101 a long time ago
Very useful for explaining basic ideas

Look forward to Tuning 102 ?

Would like to do more with Megalogviewer but I have TTS and there is still no capability to load the late DM3 files
Big numbers not able to use it

[Karl H.]

 

[Phat Black]

I'm glad to see you're taking the time to do this.  There are a lot of people that would enjoy tuning their own bike if they just had a better understanding of what they were doing and how to go about making improvements.   I for one am one those people.  HTT is an awesome site full of some of the best knowledge and experienced people that are always willing to help ... But sometimes it can make your head swim trying to piece together basic tuning from all the different discussions.   Having it spelled out in a single pdf would make it a lot more convenient to refer back to something.    Thank you for your efforts and I'm really looking forward to the finished product.   

[whittlebeast]

Please post any general questions here that you would like to see covered.  Questions/subjects that come to mind on those head swimming threads but always seem to get squashed in the bickering.

Note that this is not going to be "Harley only" type document, but there are very few truly different things.

Andy

[Karl H.]

Andy

It may not be the focus of your writeup. But I'm interested in the AFF (LTFT) strategy of the ECM in the very common case were there are closed loop and open loop areas in parallel. How does the learned AFF of the closed loop area influence the open loop VE values?

Karl

[Phat Black]

Andy, hopefully this weekend I can set down and read through what you have so far.   I don't want to throw a bunch of stuff at you that you've already taken the time to explain. 

[whittlebeast]

Karl, that question is somewhat unique to Harley, but I may get into how to spot the patterns of long term corrections that will cause unexpected results somewhere else in the tune.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

do I dare mention it.. EGR/CDE

[Karl H.]

Andy, I'm quite sure that any ECM (Delphi, Bosch...) has a built in strategy to transfer VE corrections found in the closed loop area into the open loop area (at least partially). It enables the engine to safely deal with unexpected changes in Ethanol content which can lead to an overly lean mixture.

Karl

[whittlebeast]

CDE/EGR....  is really the biggest chunk of what makes up the basic reason for a VE table.  How much of the previous combustion cycle is left behind when  the exhaust valve actually closes and a new fresh gulp of air and fuel try to enter into the cylinder.

Picture you have a glass full of Coka-Cola, you pour out 90 percent of the Coke and pour in as much water as it takes to bring the glass up to full again.  Will the new mixture be 100% clear water?  No it will be cloudy with the coloring from the Coke left behind and mixed with the new fresh water.

That exhaust that never makes it out of the chamber mixes the same way.  That left behind exhaust has almost no oxygen to burn with the fuel ...  Tuning software that allows the VE table to be set from 0 to say 200, do not need this CDE/EGR stuff at all.  It is simply part of the VE Correction.  That is what a VE is.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

 

but i meant put that in your manual somewhere.  like maybe in the preface in 64pt red bold font size!  lol

[Olie]

Spark/Timing stuff.

[rbabos]

Tuning manuals are a dime a dozen. None address the pitfalls of self tuning or how to address problems. Good dyno tuners know this stuff or should.   Now if you want to get serious on help stuff, that actually helps DIYR tuners, street tuning. Very few will spew any worthwhile solutions to problems some of use experience or in any details as to why.  Things like knowing when to go open loop. Knowing when even 100% integrators can't be relied on to give a good running engine due to the wrong chosen afr for that build. How to diagnose what the engine actually want's for fuel when integrators are 100% but the engine still runs like crap, usually low end light loads. What raising and lowering timing does in this area to a specific afr.  As mentioned, how to collect ve data on the road because I can create all kinds of number extremes but only one will be worth pursuing from there. Knowing which one is key.  How IAT temps, humidity and temp effect ve collection when shooting for the middle of the road tables that work well in all conditions. What to accept and what not too.  Pit falls of running adaptive in wildly changing ambient conditions from day to day. How to collect low end ve data on an exhaust with reversion or poor low end sampling,  prior to placing this area in to open loop, then testing for what the happy afr it likes based on that ve table in the low end. Knowing when to blend the ve or leave it as is.  That can cause some real bad issues if not careful. I seldom blend other then the odd cell and only if there is enough new data in surrounding cells.
Just some of the stuff I've learned and dealt with to achieve a good street tune. Sadly unless the bike is stock and with good O2 sampling, one needs to dig deeper for results. The TTS and PV manuals is only a starting point, seldom reaching the desired result, depending on ones expectations for a final tune.
Oh, I agree Andy, EGR is a crock of  with minimal effects.  It seldom really fixes anything caused from things mentioned above.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Oh, I agree Andy, EGR is a crock of  with minimal effects.  It seldom really fixes anything caused from things mentioned above.Ron

WOW how dare you.   

[whittlebeast]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

[strokerjlk]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

[rbabos]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

i agree that it is what it is. but dyno or street tuning ,conditions are conditions.
because it is on a dyno makes it no less of a tune.in fact you are able to get a better tune on a dyno for the obvious reasons. so I was just getting it out there before Andy goes on another one of his dyno bashing spews.

[rbabos]

Just out of curiosity, are you going to add the pitfalls of dyno tuning?  Like fixed weather conditions and altitude that are not like what happens in the real world.

If this ends up a 300 page document, people will wind up reading none of it.

Andy

If you are asking me ? NO . Because when you do this day in and day out , you see the Delphi system does a good job of compensating for conditions . Given the Dyno tune is worth anything to begin with .

I thought the Delphi sucked actually. That's why getting the tune in center is so important. While it does adjust and if the tune is on the edge in some places as in rich/lean, the time it takes to learn, so some noticable engine behavior can be noticed while it does so. The better the tune, the less learn is needed and the noticable effects are gone as well. Both open loop and closed areas need to be dialed in. I understand you know this Jim, just relaying my experience. Some call this drift and while it can happen, drift is not always the cause of ill running. The baro and ambient have changed on a non centered tune just enough to give the same effect. Centering the tune is the holy grail for us back yard hacks and goes way beyond basic vtune crap as most times it's lacking to get there.
Ron

i agree that it is what it is. but dyno or street tuning ,conditions are conditions.
because it is on a dyno makes it no less of a tune.in fact you are able to get a better tune on a dyno for the obvious reasons. so I was just getting it out there before Andy goes on another one of his dyno bashing spews.

No question a dyno gives a better tune as long as the operator is competent. While there are some really good ones on this forum, there is a lot of scum out there that just take your money let alone try and simulate all running conditions. Some are hard to do and if not dealt with can cause ill running in those areas on the street. Then it 's time to whip out the scatter plots or trial and error to find out why.
Ron

[Olie]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves. I know this goes against the professional tuners and their shops as this takes away business but reality is more and more people are wanting to DIY. I am one for example. Going past the basics giving enough information for a DIYer to make modifications to their bikes then start dialing the tune is what the new consumers want. I too rely on people seeking out my profession and in turn I make my money but the more and more people educate themselves, the more they will lean towards handling their issues before seeking professional help. I'm OK with that. There will always be a market, it will simply change a bit with advancements. If the "professionals" don't change along with the mainstream then they feel it "taking away" their livelihood. Just my two cents and seeing I'm on leave right now and started drinking WAY TOO early today, probably not worth the two cents anyway.

[strokerjlk]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves.

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

[sfmichael]

   good topic

[whittlebeast]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

[rbabos]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

That might be, but if you write a book on that and I write a book on why does your Harley miss and buck in light load or start poorly when hot,  I bet I sell more copies. Any info needs to be specific to HD and geared in an understandable format for the first time diyr. When he opens his shiny new TTS or PV box he needs to have a better understanding of problem areas that could show up. They always seem to, somewhere during a tune. Can't fix it if one doesn't understand the reason for the problem.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

[Phat Black]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

That might be, but if you write a book on that and I write a book on why does your Harley miss and buck in light load or start poorly when hot,  I bet I sell more copies. Any info needs to be specific to HD and geared in an understandable format for the first time diyr. When he opens his shiny new TTS or PV box he needs to have a better understanding of problem areas that could show up. They always seem to, somewhere during a tune. Can't fix it if one doesn't understand the reason for the problem.
Ron

Agreed. 

[rbabos]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

A perfect example of unexpected problems was a recent post and log where the AE events were being triggered on idle. Two reasons this happened and it was tuned out. Nobody spotted the causes, yet the log showed the reasons when compared to the calibration. It was not a code bust. The idle kpa of this engine and the timing map was the main cause, jumping in and out of a 3* timing change at idle. That and poor idle ve's were just enough to trigger enough MAP signal change to set of the AE's. That bike was internet tuned a couple weeks ago and I asked him yesterday if it still runs good. He's still happy. Is it a great tune, probably not but much better then when he posted.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Thanks for reminding me.  I need to add "getting a stable idle".  Some of the cool SW packages have some fun tools to dial idle right in.  You guys a somewhat hand tied in the Harley world and have to do this with some brute force.

[UltraNutZ]

throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

information overload was my biggest problem when I started this a while back.  and I still see it with other guys doing the street-tuning gig.  So much being thrown at you from the manufacturer with no clear explanation as to why or what, then compound that with other 3rd party products - some great, some not worth wiping my a** with and it becomes a daunting task for a DIYer and frustration quickly sets in.

[whittlebeast]

That is exactly why I am trying to roll lots of this into one understandable document.

[strokerjlk]

That is exactly why I am trying to roll lots of this into one understandable document.

I didn't realize you were actually writing a general doc. I though it was just a catchy title for another Harley tuning thread on the forum.
probably be better off to leave Harley tuning out of such a doc.

[whittlebeast]

It is very general.  Not Harley specific.  Suck squish bang blow, it is all the same...  just different....   a little different.

[masstch]

Speaking as a DIYer, I want to gain the info *I* need, to properly work with a PV to do a passable job of tuning my bike. My build is well beyond "stage I", (bore/heads/comp/TB/2:1/cam,etc) and an honest 125/125. I would like to hopefully learn what I need to do to tweak it, how to work with the various tables and be able to diagnose particular issues.
I DON'T necessarily want to learn every nuance of turbo/procharger/nitrous tuning or what works best for 'Busas.
I DO understand that *concepts* are universal.
To the degree that certain applications of them are V-twin specific (front/rear cyl trims) I want to know about them.

What I would REALLY like to see... whenever a chart is shown displaying a "bad" table... also, PLEASE, include what a GOOD chart should look like!
I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here.
I also want to learn the more esoteric points as I go along, but I would like to get the basics down before I get too far into the fog.

[whittlebeast]

That just reminded me to add a section "What a dirty sensor signal looks like"

That is different from a code bust and different from a bad idle triggering an AE event.....

I love this stuff. 

Thanks

[BVHOG]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

Good point, you can't tune a poor combination of parts into a good one. Or in more simple terms, you can't make chicken soup out of chicken "Potty mouth".  You can however get all of the potential out of what you have to work with.  The problem I see with writing a manual is you are going to get more than just hard data, you will get the authors views and bias on how they perceive things to be done, right or wrong.

[Phat Black]

Speaking as a DIYer, I want to gain the info *I* need, to properly work with a PV to do a passable job of tuning my bike. My build is well beyond "stage I", (bore/heads/comp/TB/2:1/cam,etc) and an honest 125/125. I would like to hopefully learn what I need to do to tweak it, how to work with the various tables and be able to diagnose particular issues.
I DON'T necessarily want to learn every nuance of turbo/procharger/nitrous tuning or what works best for 'Busas.
I DO understand that *concepts* are universal.
To the degree that certain applications of them are V-twin specific (front/rear cyl trims) I want to know about them.

What I would REALLY like to see... whenever a chart is shown displaying a "bad" table... also, PLEASE, include what a GOOD chart should look like!
I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here.
I also want to learn the more esoteric points as I go along, but I would like to get the basics down before I get too far into the fog.

I could not agree more.   I'm exactly in the same position.  The charts are nice to see ... But if I don't know the difference between good and bad it's just another chart.   

"I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here."

This is a big one I would like to see as well. 

[whittlebeast]

On this link

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Look at the screen shot at the top of page 4.  Do you guys understand what you are looking on the two sides?

[FSG]

If the VE table were perfectly tuned, the two plots would look identical. In reality, they never are perfect.

If the VE table were perfectly tuned, the two plots would look identical, in reality they never are.

A screen cap is a lot smaller than a 3MB PDF Download so as to see the top of page 4   

[attach=0]

[Admiral Akbar]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves.

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

I agree with this.. Better to be application specific or at least provide specific examples for each scenario..

[whittlebeast]

Actually, the trace right below the scatter plot shows a small piece of the same log with far more detail.

[whittlebeast]

But from one ststem to the next, almost nothing changes.  Just the names like Engine Speed vs RPM.

[Phat Black]

On this link

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Look at the screen shot at the top of page 4.  Do you guys understand what you are looking on the two sides?

Not really. ....  I guess what I'm seeing is at let's say  approx 2000 rpm it's showing roughly 12.5 AFR on the right chart.   So what does that tell you in relation to the target AFR?   

Is the chart on the right saying the bike wants to run richer than the target AFR?  ... Or is it saying that the target AFR is set to rich for what it needs?

Sorry for not understanding.    I'm trying to learn this stuff.  Bear with me.   

[Phat Black]

After spending more time trying to understand your examples on pages 3 & 4 I think I'm starting to understand it a little better.   I also spent some time reading your post on scatter plots for beginners.   

Given the example on page 3.... At 5000 rpm and 100 map your target is 13 AFR with a VE of 109.4      The scatter plot on the left shows that as well.   Correct?

Now if I go to the SP on the right its showing for argument sake 13.5

So what I'm getting from this is it's running a little lean at that point.     Correct?     If that is the case would you adjust the AFR or the VE?    And to what value?   

Again sorry for not understanding this stuff very well.

[whittlebeast]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

[Phat Black]

Okay... So if I was way off.  Let's say 16%.    Then I would change the AFR by 2.    What would I reset the VE value to?    100?

[UltraNutZ]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

Andy you know it's 8.00021%   


for the record I've always used 10% - or + = -1 or +1 AFR.  not saying it's right or wrong, just what works for me.

[whittlebeast]

13.5/13 = 1.038 or about 4% for .5 AFR change

15.5/14.5 = 1.069 or about 7% for 1 AFR change, it just depends on where you are at.

Andy

[rbabos]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

So, you make the change to the ve table which was developed via O2 sensor. I know you like adaptive so what do you think has happened to you ve edit after a couple hundred miles? Bet the fuel has been pulled back again.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

That is why EFI tuning is a big game of statistics and probability under the covers.  You are basically watching all of the sensors and saying the last 3000 times the motor was in this combination of sensor readings, the motor needed X amount of fuel to hit the target AFR so X is the best guess the next time this combination comes up.

Andy

[Coyote]

Ron is pointing out that in CL, if the bike ain't happy, no one is happy. And you can't just change the VEs to get what you want as the ECM will just undo it with corrections. You either have to fix the sampling error or adjust the target afr.

[rbabos]

Ron is pointing out that in CL, if the bike ain't happy, no one is happy. And you can't just change the VEs to get what you want as the ECM will just undo it with corrections. You either have to fix the sampling error or adjust the target afr.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Try as I might, I've never been able to outsmart that damn ECM for long.
Ron

[rigidthumper]

Ron is pointing out that in CL, if the bike ain't happy, no one is happy. And you can't just change the VEs to get what you want as the ECM will just undo it with corrections. You either have to fix the sampling error or adjust the target afr.

Yes, that's what I was saying. Try as I might, I've never been able to outsmart that damn ECM for long.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Yep, here is what things look like when closed loop tuning goes really bad.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAPxRPMIssue.png

This should be a relatively straight line.

Here is fueling by Motec but running open loop and logged on the same PC5 as the first plot.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20-%20AFR%20Bosch.png

And here is the same motor running a Motec with the Motec high speed data logging.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAPxRPMIssue.png

Andy

[Ohio HD]

Ron is pointing out that in CL, if the bike ain't happy, no one is happy. And you can't just change the VEs to get what you want as the ECM will just undo it with corrections. You either have to fix the sampling error or adjust the target afr.

   

[whittlebeast]

Does anyone here have a log of a bike doing this?  Evidence of tune drift caused by bad sampling?

[rbabos]

Does anyone here have a log of a bike doing this?  Evidence of tune drift caused by bad sampling?

Hmm. I'd think bad sampling would give you a bad ve to start with. This can also be from reversion which sets the table wrong, not just O2 location.  Either can start the problem with ill running or the so called tune drift.  Then comes along the magic finger and software to fatten certain areas up in that ve area of operation that never seemed to be high enough in the first place. Bike runs fine until some short term or long term learn comes into play and it again goes lean. Reset trims and it's back to normal for a brief period because it is now functioning on the richer ve edits. What you will see at first is the integrators in the low- mid 90s with a good running bike. Adaptive will be in the 90s as well. Over time it works it's way up to 100 and the bike is starting to run like a  Ok, so what's that tell you? Sampling for whatever reason created the ve too low to run smooth and you are stuck with it, thanks to the ECM and the sensor feedback it receives. It's a no win situation.  Time to move in another direction at that point.  Corrective action is to open loop that area and hit the afr table. It is now stable or can be made so with the correct afr.
I do not think real tune drift can happen if the ve table is correct to start with. Be carefull how you blend and extend cells after the tune. It can cause issues as well.
Ron

[Karl H.]

Yep, here is what things look like when closed loop tuning goes really bad.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAPxRPMIssue.png

This should be a relatively straight line.

Here is fueling by Motec but running open loop and logged on the same PC5 as the first plot.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20-%20AFR%20Bosch.png

And here is the same motor running a Motec with the Motec high speed data logging.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAPxRPMIssue.png

Andy

Andy

The first and the last link show the same chart!?

Karl

[whittlebeast]

Yep, here is what things look like when closed loop tuning goes really bad.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAPxRPMIssue.png

This should be a relatively straight line.

Here is fueling by Motec but running open loop and logged on the same PC5 as the first plot.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20-%20AFR%20Bosch.png

And here is the same motor running a Motec with the Motec high speed data logging.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20-%20TPS%20Motec.png

Andy

Fixed

[glens]

I followed the link to the document when you asked a few posts back about understanding the image at the top of page four.  Here's a couple of annotated screenshots from when I was scrolling down to page four.

I didn't get any further than that...

[whittlebeast]

What are you questioning in the big circle?  edit:Never-mind, I just caught it.....

[dynablack07]

Very helpful & detailed, I like this site for this very reason.

[whittlebeast]

A question for you guys that tune with TTS and a dyno, how do you guys verify that the VEs are spot on? Are you using O2 eliminators and then use widebands to feed data back to some sort of data logger/autotune to generate VE New? When VE New is fairly close to VE, you return to narrow bands?

Just asking questions

[lonewolf]

With the Green TTS you use both at the same time. Watch them both with datamaster on the monitor. Also watch the integrators.

[glens]

It's been a while, but I don't recall TTS having/using "VE New" for several years.

[whittlebeast]

With the Green TTS you use both at the same time. Watch them both with datamaster on the monitor. Also watch the integrators.

[/b][/i]

Can those be seen on the screen but not logged?  The long term and the short term integrators?

[Coyote]

It's been a while, but I don't recall TTS having/using "VE New" for several years.

But it is in their logs I believe. Use, IDK

[masstch]

Trying to catch up, here. I just downloaded MLVHD (trial period for now) but have already hit a snag. I can't get it ti run the PV .csv log files, reporting "entire file not loaded"
tiny log or large one, no joy yet.
can open them in excel and even .txt and they *look* normal.

I'm missing a step...

[whittlebeast]

The unregistered version is limited to like 500 records.  It is designed for people to see if it will read their logs before they purchase the SW.

[masstch]

I'll have to look at the entry counts but I have some tiny log files that it won't open.
I would've assumed that if it was a permissions issue that the software would tell me "purchase to do this" but it doesn't.
I'm not sure that's what's happening.
So the answer would be "no, it won't run my files."?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[whittlebeast]

Post the log that you are trying to load.  It will not read a PV autotune file but it will read a normal PV log file.  That may be what you are hitting.

[Durwood]

I'll have to look at the entry counts but I have some tiny log files that it won't open.
I would've assumed that if it was a permissions issue that the software would tell me "purchase to do this" but it doesn't.
I'm not sure that's what's happening.
So the answer would be "no, it won't run my files."?

masstch, more than likely it's a setting issue. Power up PV, go to Datalog>Datalog settings and be sure it is set to "Simple" not Pro XY.

[masstch]

I'll have to look at the entry counts but I have some tiny log files that it won't open.
I would've assumed that if it was a permissions issue that the software would tell me "purchase to do this" but it doesn't.
I'm not sure that's what's happening.
So the answer would be "no, it won't run my files."?

masstch, more than likely it's a setting issue. Power up PV, go to Datalog>Datalog settings and be sure it is set to "Simple" not Pro XY.

I'm betting that's it. Its on a different machine, not in front of me, but I recall from looking at text from the .csv that the phrase "pro-x-y" appeared in the log file.

Yes, it's the logfilexxx.csv that I'm trying to read.

If I get a chance I will get the laptop in here for a look.

[Durwood]

Let us know what you find out.

[masstch]

HEres' one of the smallest log files, yes its a "pro xy".

Now, I have to figure out what I can do with these files (I'm at the office with the PV but no bike and no wiring except link cable)

I am looking for what I could do to convert them but I'll likely have to just log new ones after the setting change()

[masstch]

Someone post a "non-pro X-Y" log file for me to view... and I'll see if I can convert the formatting of mine to match your file's formatting?

[whittlebeast]

I have been thru that exercise before.  It would be way less painful to go ride and take a new log.

[Coyote]

It's not going to be doable plus your log only has AFR in it. Not sure what you are wanting to do.

[Karl H.]

I opened the log0087.csv with the Dynojet viewer. It doesn't look normal   

[attach=0]

Karl

[masstch]

It's not going to be doable plus your log only has AFR in it. Not sure what you are wanting to do.

That particular file was just the smallest one there, just to test the loading in MLVHD. I have others that are much larger... but they aren't going to load either.

I have been thru that exercise before.  It would be way less painful to go ride and take a new log.

Gotcha! After a bunch of storms, today is shaping up to be excellent riding weather, as well, so hell, yeah!

I opened the log0087.csv with the Dynojet viewer. It doesn't look normal   
Karl

Yeah, the formatting is way wrong.

[masstch]

Apparently, I can't change the needed setting until I get it back on the bike as I don't have its power cable here only a link cable.
I could dig out some old Molex connector hardware and build a cable, but, no... just no.

I will ride this afternoon and upload the file. Before I waste  time doing it wrong, you guys tell me
1.) how to set it up to make sure that I am logging the parameters that you want me to log.
2.) It is my understanding that in order to properly save a useful log file that I should NOT save a log during Auto tuning, is that correct?

Note that I have WB AND NBs. I have been doing all my autotuning in Pro.
In recent months, instead of dicking with it (blindly) as I had been, I have tried to just leave it alone and see where the protuning would go. I have not altered or 'smoothed' any of the resulting tables, I have just done pro autotuning/saving/loading on top of the previous. The bike runs really well, but whatever bad areas the protune might tend to create are just compounded by my repeated 'tuning'.

[Coyote]

You just need to leave the link mode and you will be able to change it.

[attach=0]

[masstch]

You just need to leave the link mode and you will be able to change it.

[attach=0]

Thanks a ton for that!
I have now set log format to Simple.

[Durwood]

You just need to leave the link mode and you will be able to change it.

[attach=0]

Thanks a ton for that!
I have now set log format to Simple.

Glad you found it. 

[masstch]

OK, here's what I've done: After setting the log format to "simple", I planned to ride after work to get some auto tuning done and also to save a good log files afterwards. While still at the office, I looked at the 3D VE charts in WinPv. The tune had been protuning had 3d charts that look like a Utah map.

I decided that the extremes in the chart needed to be toned down so I smoothed them using Win PV making them less spiky.
I saved that into slot 3 and ran pro auto tuning three sessions, about a half hour each. I got near 95% of the cells hit. Each time I exported the changes to slot 4.
after that, I got out of auto tune and told it to log.
I saved three logs. the first tiny one will run in MLVHD, (scatter plot and all) but it doesn't have much data. the other two logs wont load until I spend fifty (50 bux !!!!!!) on MHLVHD.
I'm not wanting to hijack this thread with my stuff but I will post the last log file and tune to see if y'all can confirm that it will run.

BTW: this bike really is fun to ride as it has lots of power..... but tonight I stripped *another* belt!  No, I don't dump the clutch, but I'm apparently way too hard on belts with my roll-ons..

[glens]

Belt tight enough?

[masstch]

 Yep. I keep a close watch on it, even bought the official tensioning tool, which always seems to leave too tight.. I'm afraid that I treat the bike rather rudely when I'm having fun.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[whittlebeast]

I need to see a big log off this bike, but the spikes in the VE map lead me to think that something is going on under the covers.

Andy

[rbabos]

I need to see a big log off this bike, but the spikes in the VE map lead me to think that something is going on under the covers.

Andy

All I see is typical road tune hard roll ons in the ve tables. Sometimes there's a dual spike in cals if one does a hard roll on from the 2k range as well. Then there's a lower ve area between the two for the cruise range. This is a problem with road tuning since each rider will create different looking tables. Then again the tune will be suited for the individual riders habits when done. Might not look text book dyno pretty but is still functional and effective.
Ron

[masstch]

I need to see a big log off this bike, but the spikes in the VE map lead me to think that something is going on under the covers.

Andy

All I see is typical road tune hard roll ons in the ve tables. Sometimes there's a dual spike in cals if one does a hard roll on from the 2k range as well. Then there's a lower ve area between the two for the cruise range. This is a problem with road tuning since each rider will create different looking tables. Then again the tune will be suited for the individual riders habits when done. Might not look text book dyno pretty but is still functional and effective.
Ron

Unfortunately, the log was created while riding around, various roads, romping on it. but also trying to "hit every cell" as you might do while autotuning... but of course I had only the 'gauge' screen to view.
In the interest of learning... for someone trying to create a log for just this kind of review, how would you suggest they ride while logging, and for how long?
I used the Datalog>Datalog settings>signals>Auto(Wideband)>select to pick parameters to log.
This is a link to the larger file:https://www.dropbox.com/s/uwm2iskwdmknppu/log0102.csv?dl=0

Prior to creating this log, I had opened the tune I had been runing and autotuning.
I manually smoothed the spikes in WINPV, saved it to slot four then rode and protuned three long runs.
After each run I saved a pic of each datalog mode screen so I have a record of the changes. I put all those here:  http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/pv_screens in case anyone wants to compare changes. Notably, after the smoothing then protuning, the spikes came back some.
I'm also having slipping of the new clutch, when running the gears hard, without using the clutch lever at all.
Heavier springs going back, with shims when I go back in.

[whittlebeast]

The data loads right up just fine. 

It appears your closed loop is turned off.  Your VE New Front and VE Front are identical most of the time.

You need to add o2 voltage and Closed Loop data to the Logs.

Andy

[masstch]

The data loads right up just fine.
It appears your closed loop is turned off.  Your VE New Front and VE Front are identical most of the time.
You need to add o2 voltage and Closed Loop data to the Logs.

Andy

Wait, whaaaaat? I had assumed (there we go again) that selecting Datalog>signals>AUTO Pro> that every parameter would be logged. silly me.

Can I make the changes in the PV or do I make them in WINPV? (it's still plugged into it)

I really need to find the basic instruction set for "How to Log" and how to check to verify that pertinent fields are recorded.

Edit to add: I DO have the instruction manual (ha ha) the *Quick Start* downloaded, I'll admit that I haven't pulled it up lately. I need to do that and get a grasp on the basic stuff. I found that I couldn't find an answer in the QuickStart but the website has a FAQ that may get me there. I'll have to put it back on the bike to get everything on, I think.
Edited again: I didn't find a manual that actually addressed this, but a web FAQ got me there.
I went to Datalog>Datalog settings>signals>manual>add>vehicle> and selected and added front O2 voltage/rear O2 voltage/front CLI/rear CLI.

The bike awaits a belt before further logging.
Please let me know what else needs to be selected for logging.

[harleytuner]

It's not just about hitting every cell, it's staying in each cell long enough to get a good sample.  Something that is much easier achieved on a dyno.  Think about how far your o2 sensors are from where the combustion event occurs, when you're romping through the gears the data being gathered and recorded happened previously

[whittlebeast]

It's not just about hitting every cell, it's staying in each cell long enough to get a good sample.  Something that is much easier achieved on a dyno.  Think about how far your o2 sensors are from where the combustion event occurs, when you're romping through the gears the data being gathered and recorded happened previously

1) That is how he rides and that is what his ECU is using to set his long term fuel trims.

2) I bet he does not ride on a dyno on an average afternoon in July

3) I bet he does not own a dyno

4) It sure looks to me he is doing a great job getting coverage

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/LoadCoverage.png

Andy

[harleytuner]

I stand behind what I wrote.  The longer you can gather data in a cell the more accurate the data will be. 

[masstch]

Thanks for that, Andy
During the protunes (having a screen to gauge it) I tried real hard to get all the cells.

Unfortunately, I cant do the same doing the log. These are the hit screens.

all the other screens are saved there as well.

[glens]

Hit counts by themselves are no indication of their validity.

Leave AE/DE enabled, use slow, deliberate throttle changes, up the necessary hit count, and start over.  Trying to "build in" to the VE tables what the engine needs for transient changes will get you a VE table that ain't worth anything.  If you need to modify AE/DE settings later, then later is the time to do it.  Against good VE tables.

[harleytuner]

Hit counts by themselves are no indication of their validity.

Leave AE/DE enabled, use slow, deliberate throttle changes, up the necessary hit count, and start over.  Trying to "build in" to the VE tables what the engine needs for transient changes will get you a VE table that ain't worth anything.  If you need to modify AE/DE settings later, then later is the time to do it.  Against good VE tables.

[whittlebeast]

I much prefer to tune how the rider rides, provided the owner does not ride like a wimp.

[whittlebeast]

Here is me and my kid doing a little tuning data collecting on a new motor.  Not running bad considering it was the second day out.  Tomorrow I will be running at about 40 degrees hotter than the dyno break-in.  Last time out, I found out I had too much radiator.  I also found out I had air flow issues under the hood at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whus8DRYGIw

This was step two of tuning, after the dyno stuff is done.  You would be amazed what you find that never shows up on a dyno. 

Have fun tuning

Andy

[masstch]

Here is me and my kid doing a little tuning data collecting on a new motor.  Not running bad considering it was the second day out.  Tomorrow I will be running at about 40 degrees hotter than the dyno break-in.  Last time out, I found out I had too much radiator.  I also found out I had air flow issues under the hood at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whus8DRYGIw

This was step two of tuning, after the dyno stuff is done.  You would be amazed what you find that never shows up on a dyno. 

Have fun tuning

Andy

Oh gosh! The memories! Ages ago, Sprites/spitfires and my buddy's G mod Mini S (yeah, the Mr. Bean kind)

[glens]

It's not just about hitting every cell, it's staying in each cell long enough to get a good sample.  Something that is much easier achieved on a dyno.  Think about how far your o2 sensors are from where the combustion event occurs, when you're romping through the gears the data being gathered and recorded happened previously

1) That is how he rides and that is what his ECU is using to set his long term fuel trims.

The system should drop out of closed-loop during transient conditions, so there should be no long-term trim adjustment being made then.  If there is, it's going to be a good way to encourage tune drift, if it can be gotten to work well-enough in the first place.

4) It sure looks to me he is doing a great job getting coverage

Yep.  Disable AE/DE and reduce the hit count threshold and you can do wonders filling in the tables.

Better, though, to build a good and stable foundation on top of which you can adjust the parameters designed to handle the transients.

[whittlebeast]

I would never disable AE DE on any system I tune on.  You can easily throw out data if you elect to.

That is like saying the system throws out data when the motor is cold so dis connect the temp sensor so the ECU always thinks the motor is up to temp.   

Andy

[masstch]

I think they are saying that AE and DE are disabled in my log(?) and therefore, getting the 'hits' threshold in each cell is easier ( lower threshold).... Did I get that right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rbabos]

I think they are saying that AE and DE are disabled in my log(?) and therefore, getting the 'hits' threshold in each cell is easier ( lower threshold).... Did I get that right?

Sure it's quicker but the hits will likely produce wrong ve's . AE and DE need to be in the equazzion.
Ron

[masstch]

I don't have them intentionally disabled... I'll have to take a look and see if I can find out how to fix that.

[rbabos]

I don't have them intentionally disabled... I'll have to take a look and see if I can find out how to fix that.

Autotune will disable them during the process IIRC. I used logs and MyTune to skirt around that, which I feel is an incorrect process to disable them.
Ron

[masstch]

I'm not using Mytune, (target tune thing?). I used the Datalog signals (with Autotune not running) and I used manual signal selection and essentially selected *ALL* because the "add" button greyed-out.  If the AE and DE are disabled (are they??) then I don't yet see where/how to enable them for logging.
It will be probably a week before I get it rolling again.

[rbabos]

I'm not using Mytune, (target tune thing?). I used the Datalog signals (with Autotune not running) and I used manual signal selection and essentially selected *ALL* because the "add" button greyed-out.  If the AE and DE are disabled (are they??) then I don't yet see where/how to enable them for logging.
It will be probably a week before I get it rolling again.

MyTune is a separate program. Nothing to do with PV other then the PV log itself.  I take a collected log from an existing cal that has everything enabled in the calibration and run it through MyTune program for new ve's. The log can also be viewed in excel to see what's going on and what signals are being logged.
Ron

[glens]

I don't know whether or what's been enabled or disabled in this case.  I'm just saying that scheming to artificially up the hit count in order to "speed up" the data collection can be a butt-biter.  For this process, most times the turtle wins the race.  Get the VEs where they need to be while the engine's running steady in the heart of every cell. 

Whetever's necessary to get the engine running better than that while it's just passing through a cell is a subsequent process and not related to what the VE tables need to be.  Getting the engine to run well while it's passing through cells by modifying the cells will make it so the engine doesn't run as well while it's steady within a cell, and there's not much that can be done to fix that.  I guess if you never run an engine steady within any cells then my point is moot.  Good luck

[harleytuner]

I don't know whether or what's been enabled or disabled in this case.  I'm just saying that scheming to artificially up the hit count in order to "speed up" the data collection can be a butt-biter.  For this process, most times the turtle wins the race.  Get the VEs where they need to be while the engine's running steady in the heart of every cell. 

Whetever's necessary to get the engine running better than that while it's just passing through a cell is a subsequent process and not related to what the VE tables need to be.  Getting the engine to run well while it's passing through cells by modifying the cells will make it so the engine doesn't run as well while it's steady within a cell, and there's not much that can be done to fix that.  I guess if you never run an engine steady within any cells then my point is moot.  Good luck

I agree, that was my point previously when I said we have better control on a dyno.  The longer you can hold in a,cell, the better the sample, the better the end result.  Has nothing to do with "tune it how you ride it"

[glens]

I agree with you, too.  But it is possible to road-tune well if sufficient care is taken. 

Paramount to either method is ensuring good exhaust sample is obtained.  Without that it's all just a crap shoot.  It don't matter which type of O2 sensor (system) or programming system is employed: garbage in, garbage out.

[whittlebeast]

Yep, and you must have the fuel trims in the logs.  Or you must have a $60000 dyno and a wideband setup when you don't have the fuel trims in the log.

[glens]

Yep.  And you must be able to trust that the fuel trims in the logs are both correct/pertinent as such and that they're the result of correct sampling. 

Oh, and it would really help to know, if using long-term trim values (either directly or represented by something like "VE New"), where those "cells" are mapped in the calibration so that you can throw out all logged values that don't exactly correspond, since they're going to have been interpolated otherwise.  Right?  Maybe?  Does anybody know and if so, are they saying?

Kind of makes me think the best bet would be to deliberately get the individual VE cells populated individually as a first step and then just leave them alone.  After that addressing transient needs solely by their pertinent control methods.

[whittlebeast]

Given that a Harley runs block long term fuel trims, is it even possible to verify a tune without access to the fuel trims in the log?

[masstch]

Andy, thanks for your efforts. I, for one, definitely NEED a handbook on how to best utilize the PV to get the best out of it, AND the bike. I'm going to take another shot at posting a log here and I'm hoping that you'll be able to take a look at it and maybe give me a clue how to proceed. The log I posted previously was apparently lacking some parameter(?) I don't know what/why.
Please let me know if a log created while "just riding" can tell us anything that is helpful. Here is a link to the file:https://www.dropbox.com/s/8w7boaro7me9dt9/log0108.csv?dl=0
Below is a list of the signals recorded.

[Coyote]

Your map is completely open loop. It needs to be closed loop to gain information.

[masstch]

Well, that's a good start. Tell me 1. how to tell that the map is open loop?
and
2. How to make certain that the ECM/PV/Log is in closed loop to make a proper log.

[Coyote]

1. For starters your AFR is set to 13.08 which is too rich to be CL. Also, your CLI are all 100 so there is no closed loop or adaptive. Last, your O2 sensors are railed rich.

2. You need to set your AFR table so the areas you want in closed loop are bold.  14.3 and above.


You should also include front and rear AFF in your log.

[attach=0]

[masstch]

Obviously I've got lots of work to do. I will post the tune in a bit and maybe get some help sorting it out.
As for logging, I really wish I had a checklist of the steps needed to properly record a useful log.
I have both the stock and the wideband O2s... does the existence of the WBs affect the operation of close loop or does the ecm still rely on the NBs for closed loop?

How do I "add" F&R AFF to the log? In order to create the log, I used Datalog/signals/manual/add and added literally *every* possible signal until the 'add' button greyed-out. How do I add any additional fields?

[masstch]

This ios what the AFR table looks like in PV.... is the log indicating something way different than this in operation?

[Coyote]

Your log doesn't seem to be showing what your map is set for.

[masstch]

I would agree.... but what does that mean/ what do I need to do next?

What do I need to work on in the tune? is probably the important part.

[Coyote]

Was that log done while autotuning?

[masstch]

Was that log done while autotuning?

No, it was specifically done while NOT auto tuning. I used the Datalog settings, with autotune disabled.
Please, someone tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Here's what I'm doing to log:1.Program vehicle>accept>autotune>verify that "AutoTune is NOT Active"
>back>
>back>
datalog>datalog settings>signals>manual>(selected every signal that it allowed)>exit
datalog>gauges>start log
This leaves the gauge display up while logging.

Is there a better way?

[Coyote]

Sounds like you are doing it correctly but you should have AFF to select in the data list. 

[masstch]

Sounds like you are doing it correctly but you should have AFF to select in the data list. 

Here's what it looks like.
Note that the 'add' button is disabled as there are no more to add.

[masstch]

This evening First, I reloaded the same pvv that I posted here just be sure, then I got out for a short while and saved another log... not sure if it's different.
Linked here:https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9jpca9lurkl47x/log0112.csv?dl=0

[Coyote]

Yes, that's better. Adding VE New F and R would be good. Also, make sure your gauge display is showing your Widebands and AFF so they log.

[masstch]

Yes, that's better. Adding VE New F and R would be good. Also, make sure your gauge display is showing your Widebands and AFF so they log.

This is most frustrating. I'm being told to "be sure to add XX" but I've just explained what and how I've added and that there are NO other signals (that I can see how) to 'add'.
Please be very specific: tell me exactly *how* to "add VE New F and R"
I don't see them in the list of available signals.
Is it a matter of discarding some that are selected in or to make room? Only "X" number of signals allowed?
Do I do this in some other screen?
Does the active display of signals on the screen determine what is logged? (makes no sense, way more things being logged than displayed).
Does the active display of signals on the screen get *added* to the log on top of the signals selected? That might do it.

This is the kind of "How-To" that I can't  find documented for the PV, anywhere.

On a side note: In another thread I posted about a weird symptom that I suspect could be transmission bearing trouble. The symptom is a weird surging as if something is seizing at low speeds, light acceleration. From your viewing of these logs, is it possible to see this? In the last third of the ride...

[whittlebeast]

Masstch

Plot on the top section RPM, MAP and TPS

On the next section plot VSS

On the next plot have injector pulse width front and rear.  Look at what is happening at the injectors when you are a steady state.  In the lower gears, this is a real problem as the AFR is swinging about 1 full AFR around 14.7 AFR.  You feel this as a throbbing (unhappy) motor.

Andy

[masstch]

I will have to cut the log down to size for viewing with the trial version.
Before I explore that, it seems I have a transmission to rebuild.
Can you tell me what it looks like I need to do to address what you are seeing?
Is this a tune issue or a mechanical or component (sensor) issue?

[whittlebeast]

What system are you running and did you purchase it from www.FuelMotoUSA.com

[rbabos]

Yes, that's better. Adding VE New F and R would be good. Also, make sure your gauge display is showing your Widebands and AFF so they log.

This is most frustrating. I'm being told to "be sure to add XX" but I've just explained what and how I've added and that there are NO other signals (that I can see how) to 'add'.
Please be very specific: tell me exactly *how* to "add VE New F and R"
I don't see them in the list of available signals.
Is it a matter of discarding some that are selected in or to make room? Only "X" number of signals allowed?
Do I do this in some other screen?
Does the active display of signals on the screen determine what is logged? (makes no sense, way more things being logged than displayed).
Does the active display of signals on the screen get *added* to the log on top of the signals selected? That might do it.

This is the kind of "How-To" that I can't  find documented for the PV, anywhere.

On a side note: In another thread I posted about a weird symptom that I suspect could be transmission bearing trouble. The symptom is a weird surging as if something is seizing at low speeds, light acceleration. From your viewing of these logs, is it possible to see this? In the last third of the ride...

Basically start by removing useless crap you don't need at this time. Yes there is a limit of 35 or so that can be logged. ve and new ve are generally default signals. For now remove Battery volts, iac steps , iat and econ mpg to make room, then see if new ve is available from the list to add after that.
Ron

[glens]

I would get rid of even more than that.  The more data "channels" are included, the less frequently any of them track current conditions.  In fact, you're better off going with the bare minimum if you really want to see what just a few "channels" are doing over time.

[masstch]

Please give me a 'list' of the signals that should be logged (that YOU would want logged) to evaluate the tune

[glens]

Please give me a 'list' of the signals that should be logged (that YOU would want logged) to evaluate the tune

Question to me?

I won't be "evaluating the tune", I don't use PV and don't have any of the software.  I also don't use MLV.

Assuming you're working on the VE tables, you'll need everything that defines the way the ECM derives its outputs to the injectors, plus I'd add spark retard (knock control) and AE/DE since they'll pertain.  The spark timing otherwise is really not worth your attention at this point, nor the battery voltage, nor startup IAC, or startup anything, really.  Nor what the idle speed is set to, etc.  Immaterial and wasting valuable bandwidth/resources used in generating the log file.  But temperature-related fueling changes are important.

MAP and RPM, of course, assuming your fuel control tables use those for X and Y.  And whatever parameters are used to define the VE table if a different pair.

VE and VE New, I'd suppose, so you can see both what the ECM is calling for from its tables (though be aware that you may see some VE values that aren't anywhere in the VE tables since the ECM uses a weighted average of up to four adjoining cells - this is in every table - spark, etc.).  Same goes for "VE New" but we don't get to see where or what's in the Adaptive Fuel tables (long-term trims).

Closed-loop integrators may be interesting but I wouldn't use them to make any VE changes.

Just think critically about what you're wanting to see in the logs and use only the pertinent information.  Chasing spark knock / retard?  Who cares what the battery voltage is, or VE values are, etc.

Every signal you request takes time for the ECM to gather and send so keep them to the bare minimum of what you're investigating at the time.  What's more, unless they've changed it, the PV just regurgitates the same values over again until it gets something different to show, so just because you're seeing a value it doesn't necessarily mean that it pertains to every other value in the same row if looking at the log in a spreadsheet, for example.  That value may have been pertinent in a previous row with different other values.  So a closed-loop integrator value of 95%, for example may mean something but likely not, at any given point.

Unless you've got a pretty good understanding of what's going on, you're much, much better off either taking the bike to a professional tuner or letting the software make all the decisions for you.  If you're in much over your head you can do some costly damage at worst, or just waste a lot of time, fuel, tire life, etc. at best.

[whittlebeast]

Your basic assumption is that the tuner has tuning talent.  Looking at lots of logs will teach you to trust almost none of them.

Glen, what are your long and short term fuel trims running right now?

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

Your basic assumption is that the tuner has tuning talent.  Looking at lots of logs will teach you to trust almost none of them.

Glen, what are your long and short term fuel trims running right now?

Andy

   

[rbabos]

Your basic assumption is that the tuner has tuning talent.  Looking at lots of logs will teach you to trust almost none of them.

Glen, what are your long and short term fuel trims running right now?

Andy

Geeze. Do you trust them or any log run through MegaLog. You can't have it both ways.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

I have problems with tuners that don't look at what the motor is doing in the long run.  And I have problems with tuners taking a few WOT pulls on a dyno, and call it good.

[glens]

It all depends on how you define the term "tuner" (as in person).  I used the adjective "professional" and that necessarily implies someone who comprehensively adjusts all the necessary tables.  Dyno operators can variously use that term to describe themselves, but it only really fits for those that are.  Is it possible to smooth out some corner cases afterwards?  Probably as many times as not, but for those who truly are "professional"  it would rarely cross your mind it might be necessary.  Even so, it would (should) take tens of thousands of (highly filtered?) data points to discern it might even be beneficial to spend the time it took to collect them.

Even if all one has available is a "hack", they can still get you closer to start with in a couple hours than the vast majority could attain in days or even weeks by themselves on the road.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm a strong advocate of self-tuning.  But it takes more information, and more than just being acquainted with it, than is commonly espoused in places like this or in grossly general documentation.  Case in point...

[rbabos]

It all depends on how you define the term "tuner" (as in person).  I used the adjective "professional" and that necessarily implies someone who comprehensively adjusts all the necessary tables.  Dyno operators can variously use that term to describe themselves, but it only really fits for those that are.  Is it possible to smooth out some corner cases afterwards?  Probably as many times as not, but for those who truly are "professional"  it would rarely cross your mind it might be necessary.  Even so, it would (should) take tens of thousands of (highly filtered?) data points to discern it might even be beneficial to spend the time it took to collect them.

Even if all one has available is a "hack", they can still get you closer to start with in a couple hours than the vast majority could attain in days or even weeks by themselves on the road.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm a strong advocate of self-tuning.  But it takes more information, and more than just being acquainted with it, than is commonly espoused in places like this or in grossly general documentation.  Case in point...

No question road tuning is tough. Knowing when to collect data and how is a pitfall of road tuning. Huge variations in ve can be had just between aggressive road tuning and how the bike is ridden later. That variation can cause a poor running bike, especially if tuned in cold weather, then is ridden in heat from then on. Tons of logs need to be viewed to find a pattern for the average that will work well in just about all ambient conditions. The ve variations can be an eye opener beteen logs.  A simple vtune or autotune is only as starting point to a good tune. Some are happy with that, some almost need a padded cell before achieving what's best with extra work to the tables. A tune is always hunting with ambient, fuel changes so that long term tune centering is very important. It will never be perfect all the time with that speed density system, especially with TPS fueling rather then MAP as in sportsters and v rods . All this takes time to learn when starting square one.
Ron

[masstch]

What system are you running and did you purchase it from www.FuelMotoUSA.com

PV w/ AT110 kit.
Both wide and narrow bands istalled
using Dragula (original) provided bungs

Bought from Jamie, emailed (couple days ago) for help on this as well.
No reply just yet.

This is most frustrating.
Is it a matter of discarding some that are selected in or to make room? Only "X" number of signals allowed?
This is the kind of "How-To" that I can't  find documented for the PV, anywhere.

Basically start by removing useless crap you don't need at this time. Yes there is a limit of 35 or so that can be logged. ve and new ve are generally default signals. For now remove Battery volts, iac steps , iat and econ mpg to make room, then see if new ve is available from the list to add after that.
Ron

VERY useful info right there.
]

Please give me a 'list' of the signals that should be logged (that YOU would want logged) to evaluate the tune

Question to me? I won't be "evaluating the tune", I don't use PV and don't have any of the software.  I also don't use MLV.
Assuming you're working on the VE tables, you'll need everything that defines the way the ECM derives its outputs to the injectors, plus I'd add spark retard (knock control) and AE/DE since they'll pertain.  The spark timing otherwise is really not worth your attention at this point, nor the battery voltage, nor startup IAC, or startup anything, really.  Nor what the idle speed is set to, etc.  Immaterial and wasting valuable bandwidth/resources used in generating the log file.  But temperature-related fueling changes are important.
MAP and RPM, of course, assuming your fuel control tables use those for X and Y.  And whatever parameters are used to define the VE table if a different pair.
VE and VE New, I'd suppose, so you can see both what the ECM is calling for from its tables (though be aware that you may see some VE values that aren't anywhere in the VE tables since the ECM uses a weighted average of up to four adjoining cells - this is in every table - spark, etc.).  Same goes for "VE New" but we don't get to see where or what's in the Adaptive Fuel tables (long-term trims).
Closed-loop integrators may be interesting but I wouldn't use them to make any VE changes.
Just think critically about what you're wanting to see in the logs and use only the pertinent information.  Chasing spark knock / retard?  Who cares what the battery voltage is, or VE values are, etc.
Every signal you request takes time for the ECM to gather and send so keep them to the bare minimum of what you're investigating at the time.  What's more, unless they've changed it, the PV just regurgitates the same values over again until it gets something different to show, so just because you're seeing a value it doesn't necessarily mean that it pertains to every other value in the same row if looking at the log in a spreadsheet, for example.  That value may have been pertinent in a previous row with different other values.  So a closed-loop integrator value of 95%, for example may mean something but likely not, at any given point.
Unless you've got a pretty good understanding of what's going on, you're much, much better off either taking the bike to a professional tuner or letting the software make all the decisions for you.  If you're in much over your head you can do some costly damage at worst, or just waste a lot of time, fuel, tire life, etc. at best.

Very useful info there, thanks for that. My question wasn't "would you evaluate my tune" My purpose was "If I'm setting my datalog up to record signals for the purpose of having a discussion about what it looks like with you or any tuner, what are the signals that guys like you would want to make sure are included? 

Your basic assumption is that the tuner has tuning talent. Looking at lots of logs will teach you to trust almost none of them.
Glen, what are your long and short term fuel trims running right now?
Andy

I'm aware it has no talent, it is only a tool. I've got that. But to your point, it IS SOLD as "auto tuning" both the PV and the AT kit. So, the claim seems to be made by DJ, at least, that it DOES have some facility for this.
But I'm well aware that it is only a tool.
A very expensive, very poorly documented tool.
I still want to learn to use it for all it's worth.

[whittlebeast]

UltraNutZ  If you were purchasing a bike off Ebay and the seller said it was tuned by one the local dealer hot shot "Local Pro" dyno tuner and here is the dyno sheet.  Trust me it is "Perfect" so don't look, what would you do?  Trust him or check the tune?

Andy

[harleytuner]

UltraNutZ  If you were purchasing a bike off Ebay and the seller said it was tuned by the guy selling it by looking at a scatter plot.  Trust me it is "Perfect" so don't look, what would you do?  Trust him or check the tune?

[rbabos]

I'm aware it has no talent, it is only a tool. I've got that. But to your point, it IS SOLD as "auto tuning" both the PV and the AT kit. So, the claim seems to be made by DJ, at least, that it DOES have some facility for this.
But I'm well aware that it is only a tool.
A very expensive, very poorly documented tool.
I still want to learn to use it for all it's worth.
[/quote]
That's what we all thought. Then we learned it don't work worth crap in most cases. All of them, not just  this brand usually give a good starting point. Usually much more work is needed to dial the bike in beyond what the autotune gives you. By the time you figure out how it all works, hell might as well buy a damn dyno, open a shop and start posting dyno sheets.
Ron

[UltraNutZ]

UltraNutZ  If you were purchasing a bike off Ebay and the seller said it was tuned by one the local dealer hot shot "Local Pro" dyno tuner and here is the dyno sheet.  Trust me it is "Perfect" so don't look, what would you do?  Trust him or check the tune?

Andy

there's a significant difference in that question and your statement IMHO.

If I brought my bike to Chad, or Durwood, or Steve, or Ed, or the several others I would trust to tune it correctly, there would never be a doubt in my mind that it was done right.

if I bought a bike off eBay - 1) you'd be damn lucky to get the tuning device in the first place and 2) even if you did, absolutely not would I trust the tune - I'd pay to have it done correctly by someone I do trust.

[whittlebeast]

That's my point, I can name 2 I would trust.  That is a very short list considering almost every dealer has one.  You only have to ask a few of them about 3 loaded questions and come to a safe conclusion that many to most are hacks.

Andy

[UltraNutZ]

UltraNutZ  If you were purchasing a bike off Ebay and the seller said it was tuned by the guy selling it by looking at a scatter plot.  Trust me it is "Perfect" so don't look, what would you do?  Trust him or check the tune?

lol.. scatterplots.. those are toys for big boys like you Chad.. I'm content with my TTS graphs and charts.  If I have a need to look at 3rd party graphs because of an issue I can't isolate, I'll certainly use my purchased copy of MLVHD but those occasions are VERY rare to me, like really twice in 2+ years.  The bikes I build run well and street-tune well.  If they need more than street tuning, they go to someone a hell of a lot more competent than me.

[Jamie Long]

PV w/ AT110 kit.
Both wide and narrow bands istalled
using Dragula (original) provided bungs

Bought from Jamie, emailed (couple days ago) for help on this as well.
No reply just yet.

I did receive your email request for a tune revision with a copy of the tune you are running as well as a log, I responded this morning with a brief request for more data. Noted in your request were your modifications as well as some back history on your build. You also noted "The bike runs very well (fast) but mpg sucks, and it is clear that there are ares where it could run better in mid-range operations. I'm hoping you can improve this."

The first thing I noted in your log is that at the time the data was collected it was running in Auto Tune mode, AT-Pro specifically where the AF is set to 13.0. If you are able to get me another log under normal closed loop operation it will give me more data to work with. For channels you can go to datalog signals and select Narrowband Logging, and then add the Lambda front & rear from the Dynojet signals from any gauge screen and they will be added to your logs.

[masstch]

PV w/ AT110 kit.
Both wide and narrow bands installed
using Dragula (original) provided bungs
Bought from Jamie, emailed (couple days ago) for help on this as well.
No reply just yet.

I did receive your email request for a tune revision with a copy of the tune you are running as well as a log, I responded this morning with a brief request for more data. Noted in your request were your modifications as well as some back history on your build. You also noted "The bike runs very well (fast) but mpg sucks, and it is clear that there are areas where it could run better in mid-range operations. I'm hoping you can improve this."

The first thing I noted in your log is that at the time the data was collected it was running in Auto Tune mode, AT-Pro specifically where the AF is set to 13.0. If you are able to get me another log under normal closed loop operation it will give me more data to work with. For channels you can go to datalog signals and select Narrowband Logging, and then add the Lambda front & rear from the Dynojet signals from any gauge screen and they will be added to your logs.

Jamie, thanks for your reply here. I did save another (brief ) log that is available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9jpca9lurkl47x/log0112.csv?dl=0
I have also replied with attachment to your email.
Hopefully, there is useful data in that one.
The bike is apart just now, but hopefully, it goes back together Tuesday evening. I will save another log as soon as I can send it. I'm hoping to get this thing much better dialed-in.

[harleytuner]

UltraNutZ  If you were purchasing a bike off Ebay and the seller said it was tuned by the guy selling it by looking at a scatter plot.  Trust me it is "Perfect" so don't look, what would you do?  Trust him or check the tune?

lol.. scatterplots.. those are toys for big boys like you Chad.. I'm content with my TTS graphs and charts.  If I have a need to look at 3rd party graphs because of an issue I can't isolate, I'll certainly use my purchased copy of MLVHD but those occasions are VERY rare to me, like really twice in 2+ years.  The bikes I build run well and street-tune well.  If they need more than street tuning, they go to someone a hell of a lot more competent than me.

LOL, I don't use scatterplots.  I get all the info I need from live data and logs.  I too, have a paid version of MLVHD and use it, but not for the scatterplots. 

[whittlebeast]

HarleyTuner, too bad you have not figured out the scatter plot stuff.  You ought to see some of the stuff I am finding on the ITB installs.  It's really cool to see tuned length intakes work.  It turns out you can toggle from Speed Density to Alpha-N tuning based on either a MAP of about 80 KPA or a throttle position of 15-20%.  This stuff transitions like clockwork.  You can also see this stuff on the Dyno Sheets as the torque ramps up.

Andy

[harleytuner]

Maybe someday I'll take the time to study it more, but (unfortunately/fortunately) time is something I just don't have a lot of at this point. 

[glens]

HarleyTuner, too bad you have not figured out the scatter plot stuff.  You ought to see some of the stuff I am finding on the ITB installs.  It's really cool to see tuned length intakes work.  It turns out you can toggle from Speed Density to Alpha-N tuning based on either a MAP of about 80 KPA or a throttle position of 15-20%.  This stuff transitions like clockwork.  You can also see this stuff on the Dyno Sheets as the torque ramps up.

Andy

Is "ITB" an air-cooled or a liquid-cooled Harley?

[whittlebeast]

ITB is Independent Throttle Body.  It does not matter if it is air cooled or not.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2014/10/streettracker2.jpg

Andy

[masstch]

http://thekneeslider.com/images/2014/10/streettracker2.jpg
[/quote

Forbidden 403

[whittlebeast]

Try this

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:H-D_XR750_Team_Latus_engine_right.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

These are too short but you can get the idea.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is the setup in one of my personal cars.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Intake.jpg

Torque peaks at 5400 but we can pull it to 8400

[harleytuner]

Try this

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:H-D_XR750_Team_Latus_engine_right.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

These are too short but you can get the idea.

Andy

You finally posted a picture worth looking at!!    Here's one I restored a couple years ago.

[glens]

HarleyTuner, too bad you have not figured out the scatter plot stuff.  You ought to see some of the stuff I am finding on the ITB installs.  It's really cool to see tuned length intakes work.  It turns out you can toggle from Speed Density to Alpha-N tuning based on either a MAP of about 80 KPA or a throttle position of 15-20%.  This stuff transitions like clockwork.  You can also see this stuff on the Dyno Sheets as the torque ramps up.

Andy

So the Delphi ECM on our bikes is programmed to switch between the the two modes how?

Or in this case does "ITB" more appropriately mean "Impertinent Throttle Bodies"?

[whittlebeast]

The Harley ECU does not switch but other bikes do and this is a general tuning guide.

[Durwood]

Try this

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:H-D_XR750_Team_Latus_engine_right.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

These are too short but you can get the idea.

Andy

You finally posted a picture worth looking at!!    Here's one I restored a couple years ago.

Very nice Chad

[harleytuner]

Try this

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:H-D_XR750_Team_Latus_engine_right.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

These are too short but you can get the idea.

Andy

You finally posted a picture worth looking at!!    Here's one I restored a couple years ago.

Very nice Chad

Thanks.  The only things that are not OEM are the cables, hoses, some of the wiring and the outer rim on the front wheel. This bike was raced it's whole life, when it came to us the frame was painted blue and there was 4-5 coats of paint on the body work.  I got all the paint stripped and it's back to the original orange gelcoat from HD.  We even managed to source new old stock decals.  I did all the powder coating at my personal shop, the frame is the original color and the yellow (shock) are a very close match to the original color.  (I blended 3 powders to get that yellow)

[whittlebeast]

In the interest of keeping the thread from being too hijacked, did you tune it?  What HP did you wind up with?  What was the size of the motor if you dynoed it?

[masstch]

For the record, Jamie did send me a modified tune based on the .pvv and the .csv that I linked in this thread.
I'm deep into transmission stuff but hopefully It'll be rolling later tonite..

[harleytuner]

In the interest of keeping the thread from being too hijacked, did you tune it?  What HP did you wind up with?  What was the size of the motor if you dynoed it?

It's funny you bring up keeping a thread on topic  that is an XR 750, yes I tuned it, I dint recall the numbers those.  In stock form they didn't make a ton, high 50's low 60's possibly, I really don't recall.  This one was a very high dollar restoration, I had to re-degree the cams back to stock.  I've tuned a bunch of flat track bikes over the years.

[BVHOG]

Try this

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:H-D_XR750_Team_Latus_engine_right.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

These are too short but you can get the idea.

Andy

You finally posted a picture worth looking at!!    Here's one I restored a couple years ago.

Damn nice looking bike and I don't care if you tuned it or not. Betting if you did you used one of those inferior dynos though.