I am trying to write an EFI general tuning guide....

[rbabos]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

That might be, but if you write a book on that and I write a book on why does your Harley miss and buck in light load or start poorly when hot,  I bet I sell more copies. Any info needs to be specific to HD and geared in an understandable format for the first time diyr. When he opens his shiny new TTS or PV box he needs to have a better understanding of problem areas that could show up. They always seem to, somewhere during a tune. Can't fix it if one doesn't understand the reason for the problem.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

[Phat Black]

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

Subaru turbo tuning and 3 bar tuning is main stream now.  That is the sort of thing that brought us this sort of thing.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

That might be, but if you write a book on that and I write a book on why does your Harley miss and buck in light load or start poorly when hot,  I bet I sell more copies. Any info needs to be specific to HD and geared in an understandable format for the first time diyr. When he opens his shiny new TTS or PV box he needs to have a better understanding of problem areas that could show up. They always seem to, somewhere during a tune. Can't fix it if one doesn't understand the reason for the problem.
Ron

Agreed. 

[rbabos]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

A perfect example of unexpected problems was a recent post and log where the AE events were being triggered on idle. Two reasons this happened and it was tuned out. Nobody spotted the causes, yet the log showed the reasons when compared to the calibration. It was not a code bust. The idle kpa of this engine and the timing map was the main cause, jumping in and out of a 3* timing change at idle. That and poor idle ve's were just enough to trigger enough MAP signal change to set of the AE's. That bike was internet tuned a couple weeks ago and I asked him yesterday if it still runs good. He's still happy. Is it a great tune, probably not but much better then when he posted.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Thanks for reminding me.  I need to add "getting a stable idle".  Some of the cool SW packages have some fun tools to dial idle right in.  You guys a somewhat hand tied in the Harley world and have to do this with some brute force.

[UltraNutZ]

throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

information overload was my biggest problem when I started this a while back.  and I still see it with other guys doing the street-tuning gig.  So much being thrown at you from the manufacturer with no clear explanation as to why or what, then compound that with other 3rd party products - some great, some not worth wiping my a** with and it becomes a daunting task for a DIYer and frustration quickly sets in.

[whittlebeast]

That is exactly why I am trying to roll lots of this into one understandable document.

[strokerjlk]

That is exactly why I am trying to roll lots of this into one understandable document.

I didn't realize you were actually writing a general doc. I though it was just a catchy title for another Harley tuning thread on the forum.
probably be better off to leave Harley tuning out of such a doc.

[whittlebeast]

It is very general.  Not Harley specific.  Suck squish bang blow, it is all the same...  just different....   a little different.

[masstch]

Speaking as a DIYer, I want to gain the info *I* need, to properly work with a PV to do a passable job of tuning my bike. My build is well beyond "stage I", (bore/heads/comp/TB/2:1/cam,etc) and an honest 125/125. I would like to hopefully learn what I need to do to tweak it, how to work with the various tables and be able to diagnose particular issues.
I DON'T necessarily want to learn every nuance of turbo/procharger/nitrous tuning or what works best for 'Busas.
I DO understand that *concepts* are universal.
To the degree that certain applications of them are V-twin specific (front/rear cyl trims) I want to know about them.

What I would REALLY like to see... whenever a chart is shown displaying a "bad" table... also, PLEASE, include what a GOOD chart should look like!
I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here.
I also want to learn the more esoteric points as I go along, but I would like to get the basics down before I get too far into the fog.

[whittlebeast]

That just reminded me to add a section "What a dirty sensor signal looks like"

That is different from a code bust and different from a bad idle triggering an AE event.....

I love this stuff. 

Thanks

[BVHOG]

Writing a section on how to tune out a motor with a poor combination of parts may be past the scope of this subject.  That may be a "seek professional help" situation.  I know about 3 or 4 that I would trust with my motor.

I may get into how to spot some of these type issues are trying to bite you.  My son had a turbo rotary Miata that he changed to an LS1 to solve the issue.

Andy

Good point, you can't tune a poor combination of parts into a good one. Or in more simple terms, you can't make chicken soup out of chicken "Potty mouth".  You can however get all of the potential out of what you have to work with.  The problem I see with writing a manual is you are going to get more than just hard data, you will get the authors views and bias on how they perceive things to be done, right or wrong.

[Phat Black]

Speaking as a DIYer, I want to gain the info *I* need, to properly work with a PV to do a passable job of tuning my bike. My build is well beyond "stage I", (bore/heads/comp/TB/2:1/cam,etc) and an honest 125/125. I would like to hopefully learn what I need to do to tweak it, how to work with the various tables and be able to diagnose particular issues.
I DON'T necessarily want to learn every nuance of turbo/procharger/nitrous tuning or what works best for 'Busas.
I DO understand that *concepts* are universal.
To the degree that certain applications of them are V-twin specific (front/rear cyl trims) I want to know about them.

What I would REALLY like to see... whenever a chart is shown displaying a "bad" table... also, PLEASE, include what a GOOD chart should look like!
I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here.
I also want to learn the more esoteric points as I go along, but I would like to get the basics down before I get too far into the fog.

I could not agree more.   I'm exactly in the same position.  The charts are nice to see ... But if I don't know the difference between good and bad it's just another chart.   

"I would like to see examples of VE tables that show when things are working properly.
A table showing the ranges of "live corrections" that would indicate OK, I'm done, here."

This is a big one I would like to see as well. 

[whittlebeast]

On this link

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Look at the screen shot at the top of page 4.  Do you guys understand what you are looking on the two sides?

[FSG]

If the VE table were perfectly tuned, the two plots would look identical. In reality, they never are perfect.

If the VE table were perfectly tuned, the two plots would look identical, in reality they never are.

A screen cap is a lot smaller than a 3MB PDF Download so as to see the top of page 4   

[attach=0]

[Admiral Akbar]

I think what Andy is trying to do is give the "home tuner" more info so we can do these kinds of things ourselves.

sounds good to me. information is good. home tuning is good. learning is good.
I am anxious to see some of the answers myself. like to see it all pertain to Harley if thats the case. throwing in Subaru turbo tuning, 3 bar map tuning,and  software other than what DIY guys use,only tends to confuse the DIY guys.

I agree with this.. Better to be application specific or at least provide specific examples for each scenario..

[whittlebeast]

Actually, the trace right below the scatter plot shows a small piece of the same log with far more detail.

[whittlebeast]

But from one ststem to the next, almost nothing changes.  Just the names like Engine Speed vs RPM.

[Phat Black]

On this link

http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf

Look at the screen shot at the top of page 4.  Do you guys understand what you are looking on the two sides?

Not really. ....  I guess what I'm seeing is at let's say  approx 2000 rpm it's showing roughly 12.5 AFR on the right chart.   So what does that tell you in relation to the target AFR?   

Is the chart on the right saying the bike wants to run richer than the target AFR?  ... Or is it saying that the target AFR is set to rich for what it needs?

Sorry for not understanding.    I'm trying to learn this stuff.  Bear with me.   

[Phat Black]

After spending more time trying to understand your examples on pages 3 & 4 I think I'm starting to understand it a little better.   I also spent some time reading your post on scatter plots for beginners.   

Given the example on page 3.... At 5000 rpm and 100 map your target is 13 AFR with a VE of 109.4      The scatter plot on the left shows that as well.   Correct?

Now if I go to the SP on the right its showing for argument sake 13.5

So what I'm getting from this is it's running a little lean at that point.     Correct?     If that is the case would you adjust the AFR or the VE?    And to what value?   

Again sorry for not understanding this stuff very well.

[whittlebeast]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

[Phat Black]

Okay... So if I was way off.  Let's say 16%.    Then I would change the AFR by 2.    What would I reset the VE value to?    100?

[UltraNutZ]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

Andy you know it's 8.00021%   


for the record I've always used 10% - or + = -1 or +1 AFR.  not saying it's right or wrong, just what works for me.

[whittlebeast]

13.5/13 = 1.038 or about 4% for .5 AFR change

15.5/14.5 = 1.069 or about 7% for 1 AFR change, it just depends on where you are at.

Andy

[rbabos]

Correct.  With gas that most of us use, if you change the VE by about 8%, the AFR will change about 1 AFR.  (The internet police will jump all over this and claim that 8% is total BS but for most people, it is plenty close enough)

I always make adjustments to the VE tables till the average AFR is real close to the target AFR.

Later you stop playing with the VES and move on to tweaking the target AFRs to see what his motor really wants to run smooth.  Most are more "happy" richer than 14.7 AFR.

So, you make the change to the ve table which was developed via O2 sensor. I know you like adaptive so what do you think has happened to you ve edit after a couple hundred miles? Bet the fuel has been pulled back again.
Ron