Pathetic Fuel Economy w/T-Max - Experts please HELP!

[JapanDrifter]

When I installed my Thundermax about 7 years ago, I was getting 280-300km (around 180 miles) out of a tank of gas.  Since then, the only thing I've done to the motor is added cams (Wood TW-555).  I was told that since it was basically still stock and had the stock throttle body, to just let the T-Max do it's auto tune thing it should be good, but now I'm lucky if I get 180km (110 miles) out of a tank, which is less than 25mpg like, less than HALF of what everybody else reports getting!  Something's not right here! BUT it runs great, spark plugs look fine, and no fuel leaks.  You are supposed to be able to adjust this thing for good fuel economy AND power.  Last year, I adjusted the AFR a few degrees lower to to try and nip this in the bud, but all I did was lose a bit of power. As you can see from the maps I've attached below, my offsets say I need more gas. This issue actually started before I added cams and has sort of been a gradual loss of fuel economy over time. Can anybody tell me what gives?  Do I need to look at ignition timing or other factors as well?  Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I'd be glad to attach more maps if anyone wants to have a look or to send someone my whole mapping file to look at.

I need to either get this fixed or I need to start saving for a Power Vision.

@1280-1792RPM


@2048-3840RPM


@4096-5120RPM


@5376RPM onward

[Coff 06]

How old are your 02 sensors? Might be time to replace them. Could be degrading the auto tune mode.               Coff 06

[whittlebeast]

It is nearly impossible to trace down any of these sorts of issues without a good data log.

The trick is getting the AFR real close to 14.5 or so where you spend most of your time riding.

Andy

[q1svt]

When I installed my Thundermax about 7 years ago, I was getting 280-300km (around 180 miles) out of a tank of gas.  Since then, the only thing I've done to the motor is added cams (Wood TW-555).  I was told that since it was basically still stock and had the stock throttle body, to just let the T-Max do it's auto tune thing it should be good

I need to either get this fixed or I need to start saving for a Power Vision.

Let's work backwards for a minute.

If you change to PV or stay with TMax, the advise you received is not what I would do today... TMax has had many map revisions and software over the passed 5 years.
Yes wide-band sensors will adjust the fuel injector pulse width to what is requested in the map pages you enclosed.

You need [in my option] a different map.  To do that you need to provide more information than it's stock:
Year = 2008
model = Duracell Fatboy
engine = 96
TB = stock
Cam = TW-555
AC =
exhaust = [not very stock... V&H Big Radius]
did you change compression/head gasket
heads
etc 

Have you updated the SMLIV (Tmax) software on your windows machine?  Have you updated the TMax module software on the bike?

Then we can discuss...

edited added some info from your old posts

I guess the real question is, do I need to always have an old Win-based PC on hand with a serial port, as long as I run the T-Max?

this is still true, or partition your Apple OS to run windows

My basemap is attached.  If anything looks amiss, it's probably because I had the overly restrictive stock pipes on for inspection purposes (they are way more restrictive than stock pipes in the U.S. - they have cats even tho its an '08 - and they're dead silent)

Motor is a 96ci running SE stage 1 intake and v&h 2-2 big radius (going back on) pipes.  2008 Fatboy.

Not what I would call stock...

[q1svt]

You received some feed back in the past from Jamie Long @ Fuel Moto... did you buys the TMax & TW-555 cams from him?

[JapanDrifter]

When I installed my Thundermax about 7 years ago, I was getting 280-300km (around 180 miles) out of a tank of gas.  Since then, the only thing I've done to the motor is added cams (Wood TW-555).  I was told that since it was basically still stock and had the stock throttle body, to just let the T-Max do it's auto tune thing it should be good

I need to either get this fixed or I need to start saving for a Power Vision.

Let's work backwards for a minute.

If you change to PV or stay with TMax, the advise you received is not what I would do today... TMax has had many map revisions and software over the passed 5 years.
Yes wide-band sensors will adjust the fuel injector pulse width to what is requested in the map pages you enclosed.

You need [in my option] a different map.  To do that you need to provide more information than it's stock:
Year = 2008
model = Duracell Fatboy
engine = 96
TB = stock
Cam = TW-555
AC =
exhaust = [not very stock... V&H Big Radius]
did you change compression/head gasket
heads
etc 

Have you updated the SMLIV (Tmax) software on your windows machine?  Have you updated the TMax module software on the bike?

Then we can discuss...

edited added some info from your old posts

I guess the real question is, do I need to always have an old Win-based PC on hand with a serial port, as long as I run the T-Max?

this is still true, or partition your Apple OS to run windows

My basemap is attached.  If anything looks amiss, it's probably because I had the overly restrictive stock pipes on for inspection purposes (they are way more restrictive than stock pipes in the U.S. - they have cats even tho its an '08 - and they're dead silent)

Motor is a 96ci running SE stage 1 intake and v&h 2-2 big radius (going back on) pipes.  2008 Fatboy.

Not what I would call stock...

Wow, you really went and dug up my old posts.  I couldn't even find those...

Okay, here is the info with blanks filled in:

You need [in my option] a different map.  To do that you need to provide more information than it's stock:
Year = 2008
model = Duracell Fatboy
engine = 96
TB = stock
Cam = TW-555
AC = SE stage 1 kit (p/n 29489-99C, I believe)
exhaust = Ness-Comp 2-1 by Magnaflow (no cat in muffler)
did you change compression/head gasket heads? = No.
68T final drive pulley - updated in T-Max speedometer settings

Have you updated the SMLIV (Tmax) software on your windows machine?  Have you updated the TMax module software on the bike? = Yes. All updated.

Recommendations based on this?

Scanning the base map database, I don't see anything that really fits the bill.  Closest is 619, perhaps (95ci build, Redshift 557 cams, Thunderheader 2-1, hi-flow intake)? Am I missing something?  Is there a more abundant database elsewhere? 

[JapanDrifter]

You received some feed back in the past from Jamie Long @ Fuel Moto... did you buys the TMax & TW-555 cams from him?

I bought the cam and install kit from Jamie.  The T-Max I bought cheap from a friend who no longer needed it.

[q1svt]

  now we have better information to work from...

Like you i'm now an Apple guy so I need to get to my other computer later this afternoon Pacific Saving Time...

If you have time can you provide pictures of your spark plug condition [spark side], and at least one of your WB O2's [inside Ex end of sensor(s)]

Your old post are viewable via your account profile.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10829

[JapanDrifter]

now we have better information to work from...

Like you i'm now an Apple guy so I need to get to my other computer later this afternoon Pacific Saving Time...

If you have time can you provide pictures of your spark plug condition [spark side], and at least one of your WB O2's [inside Ex end of sensor(s)]

Your old post are viewable via your account profile.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10829

Here's a pic of the plug from the front cylinder last time I pulled it back in April. I think this was before I manually adjusted the AFR.  I'll pull it again and send another pic in the morning (Japan time)...



PLEASE don't ask me to pull the whole exhaust system so I can get a pic of the O2 sensor. I'm pretty certain they are torqued too tight to get either one out without pulling the exhaust.

[q1svt]

   come-on Shane...

Just kidding, but I think to solve your issues we need a multiple path approach and I'll do separate posts starting with this one.

Here is where I would start and why:
You're in Japan so I'm not sure of the Gas quality [fuel cleaners], and if your intake is stock, then you have seven years+ of the crankcase blowing oil and other sh** into the intake track... that will load the tops of the valves with all kinds of ^^()(&&^%^^&

Not sure what's available to you but MMO is my choice to begin adding to your gasoline at 1.5 times their recommendations on the bottle. [water is an option too, and there are several threads on how to do it... BUT BE VERY Careful too much and you can hydrolock the motor.


more to follow
Jim 


edited: this what MMO is
http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com

[jbexeter]

Possibly completely irellevant... but....

Periodically, at least once a year, I will measure coil and HT lead resistances with a decent multimeter.

And I can still get caught, her indoors car was behaving slightly funny, excess fuel consumption, slightly shaky idle, opop the hood, press down on both ends of all the HT leads, and two seated 1/8" better at the coil end, problem went away..... we used to get the same thing years ago in IT with "chip creep" with socketed chips, just push them back down and the it gremlins went away.

[q1svt]

Okay had a lull so had a buddy load the SMLIV software...  I'll look at my notes later tonight

Greetings T-Max experts.

Can somebody walk me thru tweaking my T-Max base map to the Wood TW555 cams I just installed? 
Here are the specs on the cams, if needed:

Intake - open: 21, close: 41, lift: .555, duration: 242, centerline: 100, tdc lift: .189
Exhaust - open: 43, close: 19, lift: .555, duration: 242, centerline: 102, tdc lift: .178

From one of your posts...


I have the 555 intake c/l as 100, and TDC Lift as .200 [since my TDC is incorrect maybe so is c/l]

As you know there is no wood cams listed in TMax.  So you need to find a RedShift that's close.  I do think a little different than the TM writeup.  I look at the C/L of the Intake timing, then the TDC Lift, and a crankshaft stroke that's close (e.g. 95/96/103) and exhaust [comppression to a point].  TB, Injectors, generally have less of affect and can be corrected easily in TM

So take a look at Maps:
#839 RS575 96"
#894 RS527 96"

#619 RS557 95" is okay, I like when available the Zipper maps.  [in the look up select the RS557 cam (right click on cam) and it will display all RS557 maps, then look at Manufactor = Zippers and with D&D exhaust]  Their maps are generally for their hot kits 
#678, 688, and the White Bro 2-1 #691...

Just a little homework for you and will talk tomorrow.

[JapanDrifter]

Spark plug this morning:
Not sure why the insulator has a reddish-purplish tint to it, but it may be something to do with additives in the gas here...

[JapanDrifter]

  come-on Shane...

Just kidding, but I think to solve your issues we need a multiple path approach and I'll do separate posts starting with this one.

Here is where I would start and why:
You're in Japan so I'm not sure of the Gas quality [fuel cleaners], and if your intake is stock, then you have seven years+ of the crankcase blowing oil and other sh** into the intake track... that will load the tops of the valves with all kinds of ^^()(&&^%^^&

Not sure what's available to you but MMO is my choice to begin adding to your gasoline at 1.5 times their recommendations on the bottle. [water is an option too, and there are several threads on how to do it... BUT BE VERY Careful too much and you can hydrolock the motor.


more to follow
Jim 


edited: this what MMO is
http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com

MMO is not available in Japan. I did find it on Amazon Japan, but they want about $100 a pint. Not happening. I'll go down to out local cycle shop today and see if they have it or something similar.  Main objective here is to clean and lubricate fuel components, correct?

[JapanDrifter]

Possibly completely irellevant... but....

Periodically, at least once a year, I will measure coil and HT lead resistances with a decent multimeter.

And I can still get caught, her indoors car was behaving slightly funny, excess fuel consumption, slightly shaky idle, opop the hood, press down on both ends of all the HT leads, and two seated 1/8" better at the coil end, problem went away..... we used to get the same thing years ago in IT with "chip creep" with socketed chips, just push them back down and the it gremlins went away.

Is this how you would typically measure the coil? 



What does HT stand for?

[JapanDrifter]

Okay had a lull so had a buddy load the SMLIV software...  I'll look at my notes later tonight

Greetings T-Max experts.

Can somebody walk me thru tweaking my T-Max base map to the Wood TW555 cams I just installed? 
Here are the specs on the cams, if needed:

Intake - open: 21, close: 41, lift: .555, duration: 242, centerline: 100, tdc lift: .189
Exhaust - open: 43, close: 19, lift: .555, duration: 242, centerline: 102, tdc lift: .178

From one of your posts...


I have the 555 intake c/l as 100, and TDC Lift as .200 [since my TDC is incorrect maybe so is c/l]

As you know there is no wood cams listed in TMax.  So you need to find a RedShift that's close.  I do think a little different than the TM writeup.  I look at the C/L of the Intake timing, then the TDC Lift, and a crankshaft stroke that's close (e.g. 95/96/103) and exhaust [comppression to a point].  TB, Injectors, generally have less of affect and can be corrected easily in TM

So take a look at Maps:
#839 RS575 96"
#894 RS527 96"

#619 RS557 95" is okay, I like when available the Zipper maps.  [in the look up select the RS557 cam (right click on cam) and it will display all RS557 maps, then look at Manufactor = Zippers and with D&D exhaust]  Their maps are generally for their hot kits 
#678, 688, and the White Bro 2-1 #691...

Just a little homework for you and will talk tomorrow.

Thanks for giving me all the factors to look at.  I will look these and other maps over while keeping these factors in mind.  So...no loading any maps until you get back with me tomorrow, then? LOL. It's raining right now, anyway...

Sorry folks... I'm pretty good at taking things apart and putting em back together, but I'll be damned if I can wrap my head around this EFI mapping stuff.  Not great with electrical, either, but can usually figure it out...

BTW, I have this little Acer netbook I bought back in 2009 running WinXP and it's current sole purpose is running SMLIV, linking to my bike and storing maps.  If I get this issue solved with the T-Max module, I will consider investing in an old Dell Latitude E5500 or 5510 which runs an RS232 interface natively (I've encountered issues with the USB adapter) and has Win7 on it. Since MS no longer supports XP (don't know about the people who do the software for TH), I never know when I'll encounter an incompatibility bug with the SMLIV software or a virus/malware when linked to the Internet, although I always keep the Internet connection cut when doing anything other than the software updates. Otherwise, that's money I can put toward another tuner...

[jbexeter]

What does HT stand for?

High Tension, spark plug leads from coil to plug.

Don't have efi don't know dick about efi and as I said probably nothing to do with your problem, but poor / weak spark can kill the mpg / power / etc too

[q1svt]

MMO is not available in Japan. I did find it on Amazon Japan, but they want about $100 a pint. Not happening. I'll go down to out local cycle shop today and see if they have it or something similar.  Main objective here is to clean and lubricate fuel components, correct?

Fuel Injector cleaner is used to remove carbon deposits on the end of the injector.  At the same time it helps to remove carbon, and other build up on the valves.  HD stock valve do not have any special coatings that help prevent build up... and the head breathers are plumbed into the TB and crud directly into the motor and onto hot valves.

MMO cleans & lubs, but right now you need to clean the top of the valves... if you have a cable/scope camera you can run it into the intake manifold and check it.

If you search HTT there are a couple of threads outlining how with a hot motor and a hand spray bottle filled with water, sprayed into the run motors TB will remove carbon build. try looking for "removing carbon"

[q1svt]

BTW, I have this little Acer netbook I bought back in 2009 running WinXP and it's current sole purpose is running SMLIV, linking to my bike and storing maps.  If I get this issue solved with the T-Max module, I will consider investing in an old Dell Latitude E5500 or 5510 which runs an RS232 interface natively (I've encountered issues with the USB adapter) and has Win7 on it. Since MS no longer supports XP (don't know about the people who do the software for TH), I never know when I'll encounter an incompatibility bug with the SMLIV software or a virus/malware when linked to the Internet, although I always keep the Internet connection cut when doing anything other than the software updates. Otherwise, that's money I can put toward another tuner...

Personally, I would start a savings account.  Your TMax is two hardware versions behind, if anything will get you it will be the RS232 

New versions are doing a lot more things automatically like IAC, because of the hardware upgrades the new features are not back portable to you version.  I like both the new version of TMax and PowerVision TT, but they still need windows    PVTT does have the handle bar logging and control so no need for a laptop to ride & log.  A lot of tuner improvements over the past 7+ years...

[q1svt]

Thanks for giving me all the factors to look at.  I will look these and other maps over while keeping these factors in mind.  So...no loading any maps until you get back with me tomorrow, then? LOL. It's raining right now, anyway...

Sorry folks... I'm pretty good at taking things apart and putting em back together, but I'll be damned if I can wrap my head around this EFI mapping stuff.  Not great with electrical, either, but can usually figure it out...

Your older post gave me the impression that too but that you want to learn... like to research like you did on the TW-555 cam.

That's why I'm not giving you a single map it hard to learn that way

Now back to you current map: 
Have you saved your maps over time?
Have you run the 'Auto Tuned Points Analyzer'  aks 'Run AutoMap'?

[JapanDrifter]

MMO is not available in Japan. I did find it on Amazon Japan, but they want about $100 a pint. Not happening. I'll go down to out local cycle shop today and see if they have it or something similar.  Main objective here is to clean and lubricate fuel components, correct?

Fuel Injector cleaner is used to remove carbon deposits on the end of the injector.  At the same time it helps to remove carbon, and other build up on the valves.  HD stock valve do not have any special coatings that help prevent build up... and the head breathers are plumbed into the TB and crud directly into the motor and onto hot valves.

MMO cleans & lubs, but right now you need to clean the top of the valves... if you have a cable/scope camera you can run it into the intake manifold and check it.

If you search HTT there are a couple of threads outlining how with a hot motor and a hand spray bottle filled with water, sprayed into the run motors TB will remove carbon build. try looking for "removing carbon"

I went to the cycle shop, as I indicated I would, took two cleaning/lubricating fuel additives off the shelf and brought them to the store manager to ask which he recommended. He walked me right to the Wako's brand section and recommended one of their products.  They are like the most trusted lubricant brand in Japan, but they weren't represented in the fuel additive section.  They have their own exclusive section at every cycle/automotive store. Bet Wako's pays some pretty hefty kickbacks, for the store reps to recommend their brand's products like that without hesitation.  LOL.  Anyway, tho, yes it does say deposit removal and looks like it will do the trick.  And no, I don't have scope camera.  Like an idiot, I forgot to take one of those home with me when I was disavowed by the CIA. Do you think I should go ahead and pull my heads so I can have a look? 

[q1svt]

Thanks for giving me all the factors to look at.  I will look these and other maps over while keeping these factors in mind.

As I said you need to find a match within the RedShift cams and gave some tips.  here is the next things to consider:

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/p-28612-performance-cams.html#camspecs
This is a write up on your cam.  Sounds nice, but we know that no wood cam is gentle  by nature they have a get up and go.

http://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/29/product/0/catalog_red_shift_cams.pdf
here are the write ups for the RedShift cams, my experience is some are more get up and go than other...

Next when reading the map details and they discuss compression remember to convert the maps static compression to dynamic, and do the same for your cam.  That will adjust for differences in Intake Closer between cams 
[the map I run is for a 47* closure @10.5:1 plus, but my cam closes at 42* with 10.2:1,      dynamic is a wash...]

[q1svt]

no, I don't have scope camera.  Like an idiot, I forgot to take one of those home with me when I was disavowed by the CIA. Do you think I should go ahead and pull my heads so I can have a look? 

Nope no need to pull heads... was just letting you know how you could check.  Just run the cleaner.

[JapanDrifter]

BTW, I have this little Acer netbook I bought back in 2009 running WinXP and it's current sole purpose is running SMLIV, linking to my bike and storing maps.  If I get this issue solved with the T-Max module, I will consider investing in an old Dell Latitude E5500 or 5510 which runs an RS232 interface natively (I've encountered issues with the USB adapter) and has Win7 on it. Since MS no longer supports XP (don't know about the people who do the software for TH), I never know when I'll encounter an incompatibility bug with the SMLIV software or a virus/malware when linked to the Internet, although I always keep the Internet connection cut when doing anything other than the software updates. Otherwise, that's money I can put toward another tuner...

Personally, I would start a savings account.  Your TMax is two hardware versions behind, if anything will get you it will be the RS232 

New versions are doing a lot more things automatically like IAC, because of the hardware upgrades the new features are not back portable to you version.  I like both the new version of TMax and PowerVision TT, but they still need windows    PVTT does have the handle bar logging and control so no need for a laptop to ride & log.  A lot of tuner improvements over the past 7+ years...

Yep, think I'll do that and get the latest version of the PV when I have the money together. Maybe by then, somebody will have some software that will run on a MacBook. I have to say, tho, that the T-Max has been a solid performer given my limited knowledge. DTE has magically reappeared (not that I ever used it) and no more speedometer playing dead on me since the last firmware update earlier this year...
Other than those two little issues and this fuel issue (not the module's fault), I've been pretty happy with it...
Would you consider the wide-band O2 sensors for PV to be a "must-have"?  Those make the system cost a lot of coin for something that flashes the stock tuner.  From all I have read, tho, it seems like a fairly intuitive and user-friendly system...

[JapanDrifter]

Thanks for giving me all the factors to look at.  I will look these and other maps over while keeping these factors in mind.  So...no loading any maps until you get back with me tomorrow, then? LOL. It's raining right now, anyway...

Sorry folks... I'm pretty good at taking things apart and putting em back together, but I'll be damned if I can wrap my head around this EFI mapping stuff.  Not great with electrical, either, but can usually figure it out...

Your older post gave me the impression that too but that you want to learn... like to research like you did on the TW-555 cam.

That's why I'm not giving you a single map it hard to learn that way

Now back to you current map: 
Have you saved your maps over time?
Have you run the 'Auto Tuned Points Analyzer'  aks 'Run AutoMap'?

I have the "will" to learn. I would very much like to about mapping and EFI tuning. It actually sounds very interesting and useful, especially since I have an obvious application for it; however, it's very hard for me to learn simply by reading. I am a visual, hands-on kinda guy, so I learn best when somebody is explaining it to me and showing me in person. When I installed my cam, for example, I found a good install video and watched that over and over again until I could visualize the whole process in my head, then went out and did it. It would be nice if T-Max and these other tuner companies, or other kind folks, who know how EFI and these units work, could take the time to make a series of videos, using screenshots and other visuals (and with plain English), explaining EFI mapping as it applies to these tuners.  There are some out there, of course, but they are more targeted, just showing how to do certain things and make certain settings; without the "why", and not a full training course.

Yes, I save all my past maps and keep the most current ones (from the past year or so) on the desktop of my slow and clunky Windows machine. I also run Auto-Map after every time I clear the off-sets and let it auto-tune for a week or so.  I want to keep this current map, if for nothing else, than the ignition timing settings. May need to copy those, if this thing starts popping or pinging again after running the new map. 

Think I will try map 894, as you suggested and go from there...