127" Evo issues/teardown

[beerman1378]

Here goes it...

-  Bike "Potty mouth" the bed on me and after getting it home, I noticed the rear cylinder exhaust pushrod was bent to hell.  Couldn't even get it started. 

-  I have a brand new lower end that was sent to me from Midwest because I had an oil leak from day 1 but didn't feel like pulling the motor at the time.  That time has come!

-  Got the Ultima 127 out of the bike and started to break it down.  Here are the results so far of what I have done



One of the front or rear lifters in the tappet



Another view of the lifters chewed to hell



Here is the bent pushrod (Believe it or not with all 4 lifters torn up, only 1 pushrod was bent)



First shot of the cam (which is also very hard to turn while attached to the nose cone)



2nd shot of the cam



Now this is where all the metal shavings were found!  They ONLY seemed to be in the lower left part behind the nose cone



This is where the breather gear goes.  Is the rear of that seat supposed to look like that?


With all this said, What the hell went wrong?  I'll be breaking the rest of it down soon to inspect the valves, cylinders, pistons, everything else pretty much.

Also, I'm lost when it comes to the "lift", "duration", etc.  I just need an an answer on that cam and lifters I should be looking at (spec wise)

I appreciate the help in advance!!

[rageglide]

I bet that was making a bit of a racket before the pushrod bent. 

What caused it?  Tappet roller failure most likely due to improper heat treat.  How many miles on the lifters?

The totally trashed roller caused the pushrod to get bent because the pushrod was running without much if any preload and was able to bounce out of the cup landing on the shoulder of the cup, snapring or top lip of the lifter.  Coil bind or spring pressure applied off angle bends the wimpy adjuster. 

Looking in the breather chamber it looks normal at the far end (the part in focus).  But i'd guess the bore itself is pretty well chewed up from the metal debris that showered it.

Install a premium set of lifters from S&S in the lower end.   Cam choices are all over the map depending on how much lift the springs can handle and the amount of static compression.  Have the heads freshened up, checked and a cam recommended by the guy who does the work. 

[turboprop]

I bet that was making a bit of a racket before the pushrod bent. 

What caused it?  Tappet roller failure most likely due to improper heat treat.  How many miles on the lifters?

The totally trashed roller caused the pushrod to get bent because the pushrod was running without much if any preload and was able to bounce out of the cup landing on the shoulder of the cup, snapring or top lip of the lifter.  Coil bind or spring pressure applied off angle bends the wimpy adjuster. 

Looking in the breather chamber it looks normal at the far end (the part in focus).  But i'd guess the bore itself is pretty well chewed up from the metal debris that showered it.

Install a premium set of lifters from S&S in the lower end.   Cam choices are all over the map depending on how much lift the springs can handle and the amount of static compression.  Have the heads freshened up, checked and a cam recommended by the guy who does the work.

This is an Evo. S&S doesn't offer premium lifters in an Evo version.

I have run just about every brand name evo lifter ever made and really like the Jims Hydrosolids and the Feuling Race lifters. All Jims lifters are taboo to the TC crowd, but their evo lifters and their Hydrosolids in particular are pretty good and are well respected within the evo community. I have run them for years without issue. My black FXR has been running them with a RedShift 647 cam for many years without issue, very pleased with their performance as well.

My red FXR has a set of Feuling Race lifters in along with a Wood 9B cam. The valve train is almost silent. Have not adjusted them since they were installed. Very reliable lifter, even with big cams, heavy springs and regular higher rpm duty.

[gryphon]

I'm also curious how many miles. Others I've heard of with lifter issues ran into it pretty quickly (within a few thousand miles). I just rolled over 25k on mine and so far so good. Having said that, I have a new set of Feuling Race Series going in this winter. Not necessarily because of any issues but it's cheap enough insurance.

[beerman1378]

What is mind blowing is that there is roughly 2,500 miles on the motor. I had plenty of oil pressure. Little bit of a racket but not too bad, but may have been dampened by the sound of the open primary. Im actually stumped at how quick something went wrong and cause a multitude of problems. But one issue usually causes a few more!  I am assuming the bearings that completely wore out of 3 of the 4 lifters were the metal shaving I am seeing. I just hope the top end isn't in rough shape also!

[rageglide]

I probably should have left off the "premium" word.  S&S lifters are premium lifters and they do sell a lifter for Evos.   Jims are good too I have the original big axles in my stroker, never tried the hydrosolids.  I also used HD lifters exclusively in the past.  Never really felt a pressing need to use other brands which were double or more the price.  But now days... choices are limited.

Ed, are you saying S&S evo lifters blow?

Beerman, 2500 miles is ridiculous.  A cheap ~ lifter used with overly heavy valve springs wouldn't last long imo.  In the past I saw multiple crane cams wear through the inner cam bearing hard surface in less than 2k miles.  They admitted having a bad run at that time. 

Bob

[beerman1378]

Yea rage. I think I'm goin with S&S lifters and pushrods with a Redshift cam. I just hope I don't need much more than that!

[rageglide]

Give the oil pump a look.  Probably ok, but would still look it over.   A slurry of material will definitely score the pump, but big chunks usually shear the key or embed in the pump housing.   Use some scotchbrite on the breather valve.

How do the lifter blocks look?  Once the wheel wears badly the lifter can start to rotate and damage the guides.

[turboprop]

I probably should have left off the "premium" word.  S&S lifters are premium lifters and they do sell a lifter for Evos.   Jims are good too I have the original big axles in my stroker, never tried the hydrosolids.  I also used HD lifters exclusively in the past.  Never really felt a pressing need to use other brands which were double or more the price.  But now days... choices are limited.

Ed, are you saying S&S evo lifters blow?

Beerman, 2500 miles is ridiculous.  A cheap ~ lifter used with overly heavy valve springs wouldn't last long imo.  In the past I saw multiple crane cams wear through the inner cam bearing hard surface in less than 2k miles.  They admitted having a bad run at that time. 

Bob

Absolutely not. My point was that S&S does not offer their Premium Lifter for the evo, that is for TC the TC only. I think you realize that using the word Premium like you did was sort of unclear and didn't match your intent. No issues.

And to be clear, my references to the Jims Hydrosolids was to sort of dispel the bad name they have around here amongst the TC crowd. Jims evo lifters are very good. Just wanted to get that out there.

The Feuling lifters don't have a bad name, but seem to be relatively unknown within the evo community. Like everything Feuling does, there evo race lifters are top notch.

The S&S evo lifters, with and without the HL2 travel limiters, are very good. I don't think I have ever heard a complaint about them in an Evo application.

[beerman1378]

In about 12 hours I'll have the heads off and I'll keep the thread updated with pics of what I find! 

[beerman1378]

How do the lifter blocks look?  Once the wheel wears badly the lifter can start to rotate and damage the guides.

Tomorrow I'll be checking the blocks. I didn't give them a good look when I took them out to be honest.

[turboprop]

How do the lifter blocks look?  Once the wheel wears badly the lifter can start to rotate and damage the guides.

Tomorrow I'll be checking the blocks. I didn't give them a good look when I took them out to be honest.

If the blocks are damaged they might clean up with a .005" hone. Not really a bad way to go either as the new lifters will be individually fitted to their respective hole.

[rageglide]

Absolutely not. My point was that S&S does not offer their Premium Lifter for the evo, that is for TC the TC only. I think you realize that using the word Premium like you did was sort of unclear and didn't match your intent. No issues.

Yep. My wording implied the "Premium" line S&S.

If the tappets came out of the blocks without force I'd say hone wouldn't really be necessary.  The guide slots might need a little dressing with a file to insure new rollers don't bind.   The bore in the guide area doesn't make much contact with the machined body of the lifter in the area where the cocked wheel makes contact.

[Deye76]

What's up with that last picture? Is that the breather bore? Ouch.

[beerman1378]

What's up with that last picture? Is that the breather bore? Ouch.

You got it!  Its the breather bore.  Lucky for me I have a whole lower case that was sent to me by Midwest for free because of an oil leak out of the crank.  Hopefully a few upgraded parts, and an oil pump overhaul will solve my problems.

[beerman1378]

Well here goes.  I tore more apart today and as far as I can see I need an oil pump, cam, pushrods, lifters, and possibly tappet blocks.  The cylinder walls and the pistons look fine.  Just going to get them cleaned up/honed and new rings.  The top ring on the rear cylinder was seized to the piston too.  Probably from the heat.  Anyway here are some more pics...

[rageglide]

You need a new set of tappet blocks.  That one is toast.  New blocks from S&S are pretty reasonably priced or you can probably find a set on ebay.

Pistons look worn more than 2500 miles and I would start fresh with the next over size.  Whoever does the bore work will inspect the pistons over and help you make that determination. 
Bob

[Burnout]

That is not where the blocks get damaged when a lifter roller goes bad. Tha side of the slot that steers the roller gets ate up when the roller wobbles around. I can almost guarantee your lifter blocks are junk.

Possible causes of lifter damage, bad cam, wrong or contaminated (gas) oil, high oil temps, coil bind, valve lift travel exceeded, valve spring pressure inadequate/excessive, etc

[tmwmoose]

Man sure is a drag , don't mean to kick ya when your down but gota ask what exhaust are you using that you didn't  hear that coming

[beerman1378]

Man sure is a drag , don't mean to kick ya when your down but gota ask what exhaust are you using that you didn't  hear that coming

Martin Bros Daisy Cutters.  I'm running an open primary also so I'm getting a lot of racket there.  It sucks.  I know.  I'm taking it in stride I guess.  Engine had an issue from day 1 with a small oil leak from the factory on the primary side.  Little issues here and there.  So in a way I'm glad this happened(Not $$$ wise!).  Get things freshened up with higher quality parts, etc.

[beerman1378]

Will these new parts work with the Ultima 127"?  I'm not a gear head by a stretch and was hoping for some insight.

S&S Quickee adjustable pushrods #93-5120
S&S Hydraulic Lifters #33-5352
Redshift 656 cam Page 11 http://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/29/product/0/catalog_red_shift_cams.pdf

Ill be using the stock Ultima Rocker arms that are in perfect condition

[turboprop]

Will these new parts work with the Ultima 127"?  I'm not a gear head by a stretch and was hoping for some insight.

S&S Quickee adjustable pushrods #93-5120
S&S Hydraulic Lifters #33-5352
Redshift 656 cam Page 11 http://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/29/product/0/catalog_red_shift_cams.pdf

Ill be using the stock Ultima Rocker arms that are in perfect condition

Yes. All of those parts will work in your 127" Ultima. Use of those quickee pushrods can (and probably will be) debated. That 656 cam will be allot of fun in that 127.

[beerman1378]

[/quote]

Yes. All of those parts will work in your 127" Ultima. Use of those quickee pushrods can (and probably will be) debated. That 656 cam will be allot of fun in that 127.
[/quote]

Great news!  In regards to the quickee pushrods, what would be your choice/recommendation?  I know S&S has a strong reputation and was leaning that way.

[rageglide]

Go with a pushrod that has minimal exposed adjuster if you can.  That threaded rod is the weak link. 

Smith Bros make a pretty good set for Twin Cams, and Evos.  The design allows install with rockers and cam chest intact.  Not the easiest to work with... don't use the recommended loctite unless you want to make future removal a real bear...   Disclaimer: I've only used in Twin Cam. 

I have a set of Riveras in my evo and the adjusters are soft as a baby's butt...  They're real light and work fine but the adjuster is quite long and the fine threads are easily damaged. 

[turboprop]

Yes. All of those parts will work in your 127" Ultima. Use of those quickee pushrods can (and probably will be) debated. That 656 cam will be allot of fun in that 127.
[/quote]

Great news!  In regards to the quickee pushrods, what would be your choice/recommendation?  I know S&S has a strong reputation and was leaning that way.
[/quote]

Pushrods are a funny subject. Just about every sponsor of this page offers their brand of pushrods, but in reality, they are all made by Smith Bros. With a high lift cam like you have chosen, look for a set of thick walled, tapered chromoly pushrods. Smith Bros makes a wide variety of pushrods, sort of like Ford makes a wide variety of trucks.  The easy route would be to source those pushrods at the same place you will source that RedShift cam. Go direct to Zippers. Call Pete Stewart, get hooked up.

Don't be intimidated by this chart. Call Zippers, they will set you up with exactly what you need.

http://www.zippersperformance.com/all-products/engine-transmission/cam-chest-valve-train/protaper-evo-pushrods.html