Milwaukee Eight Cylinder Heads

[SP33DY]

Today I tried to order a set of Milwaukee Eight Cylinder Heads at my local Harley shop. I want to get them on the flowbench and see what can be done with them. They took my order this morning and all was well...

They called this afternoon and told me I can have store credit or a refund. The heads are "protected" and they can't sell them to me!

What the @#$& is that all about?

[rbabos]

Today I tried to order a set of Milwaukee Eight Cylinder Heads at my local Harley shop. I want to get them on the flowbench and see what can be done with them. They took my order this morning and all was well...

They called this afternoon and told me I can have store credit or a refund. The heads are "protected" and they can't sell them to me!

What the @#$& is that all about?
Looks like you need to buy the bike first to get the heads. Compensator same deal. They won't sell it.
Ron

[04 SE Deuce]

I'm thinking they'll be sell'n Screamin Beagle heads soon and you'll be able to pick up a set take-offs at a nice discount.

[TorQuePimp]

Looks like people might be doing some welding

[masstch]

Man, can you imagine the bidding war for the first set of take offs to hit eBay?


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[masstch]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??


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[Just Nick]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

No Not at all no way


And the new compensator is also a protected part not for sale

[CowboyTutt]

That's my take away too.  Stick to TC stuff.  You can run even or easily surpass the M8 with current TC technology.  No need for this 4 valve stuff.  Regards,  -Tutt 

[One4Tone]

I hear some dealers are offering 20% off SE parts...might be a good time to hop up a twinke

[glens]

I'll guess that all "mate" engine parts will be for warranty replacement only with the originals returned for complete autopsy, for a good year or so.

Anybody look close at the paperwork on their shiny new '17 touring bike?  Maybe there's a "license agreement" that you'll not disassemble, poke, or prod under penalty of law

[Don D]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nothing is impossible but consider the bolt pattern wrong, spigot bore wrong, cooling passages present, intake and electronics tbd, pushrod pockets wrong...
And on...

[BVHOG]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nothing is impossible but consider the bolt pattern wrong, spigot bore wrong, cooling passages present, intake and electronics tbd, pushrod pockets wrong...
And on...

How bout a two valve head for the new motor?

[TorQuePimp]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nothing is impossible but consider the bolt pattern wrong, spigot bore wrong, cooling passages present, intake and electronics tbd, pushrod pockets wrong...
And on...

How bout a two valve head for the new motor?

If s@s were smart they would be doing just that

[CowboyTutt]

It seems like that would still require a lot of engineering to run two plugs, the knock sensors, accompanying rocker arms and water or oil cooling passages etc for no benefit compared to the 4 valve head?  I think just sending your original 4 valve heads for some improvements is all that is needed. 

If S&S found a way to make a "Super Stock" 4 valve head, that would be interesting. 

Lots of companies with great experience in modifying 4 valve heads who haven't so far done Harleys.  Might be a good time for them to jump in. 

Cheers,

-Tutt

[rigidthumper]

I'm bettin John Sachs has some ideas[emoji6]

[No Cents]

I'm bettin John Sachs has some ideas[emoji6]

   

[Durwood]

 I think these new heads have a ton of potential, and in time will shine.

[Templer]

Was there not a 4 valve head awhile back that fitted to a EVO? Fueling,Quantum,Rivera I think. What happened to those and could the ideas from the M-8 be used/based on those? I have been told of Evos with TC top end, so why not TC Hemi heads? Same design on the rockers but maybe not Euro 4/Ca legal. WHO would care? Are not the 4 valve design best at rpms better then 5500? What would a EVO/Hemi 4 motor do to the M-8 114 side by side??? V-Rod ver stock M-8 114 

[TorQuePimp]

Wait till you get a set in your hands

[Matt C]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nothing is impossible but consider the bolt pattern wrong, spigot bore wrong, cooling passages present, intake and electronics tbd, pushrod pockets wrong...
And on...

How bout a two valve head for the new motor?

Why would you want to do that?

[rbabos]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nothing is impossible but consider the bolt pattern wrong, spigot bore wrong, cooling passages present, intake and electronics tbd, pushrod pockets wrong...
And on...

How bout a two valve head for the new motor?

Why would you want to do that?

Wondering the same. Give them something better and they want to fk it all up and go backwards.
Ron

[Matt C]

I'm bettin John Sachs has some ideas[emoji6]

4 valve heads are nothing new, Honda (and others) have been using them for quite a while.
One of the differences is 'swirl', has become 'tumble'.

There are countless advantages to 4 valve over 2. More flow with less lift being a biggie. Lighter
components, better cylinder fill, ports are smaller (higher velocity) and on and on...

This will be a game-changer. Hopefully the motors will be able to hold up to these things...

[rbabos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfEZyCccKTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedv8RGcvMQ
8 valve engines were like out forever, both Indian and Harley. History repeats itself.
Ron

[Bigbluff]

Someone mentioned that variable valve timing won't be possible with this single cam...and that is true. But it wasn't possible with the TwinCam either, at least not in the way the two camshafts were implemented on the TC.

Each camshaft on the TC controlled both an intake and an exhaust valve on one cylinder each. I suppose the cam timing could be made variable between them, but to what end? Nothing to be gained by varying the timing between the two cylinders.

If the camshafts were to have been aranged so that one ran above the other in the crankcase, and then one camshaft (upper) controlled only the intake valves on both cylinders and the other camshaft (lower) controlled only the exhaust valves, on each cylinder, then an arrangement of the chain linking them could have been made with an actuator to vary the timing between those two camshafts. But I suspect that engine height would become a problem in that configuration.

Fun to think about though!

[jsachs1]

Not a lot of magic in a 4-valve head in a low rpm motor.
We make more power with the pro-mod bikes using 2 valves.
I did some Victory 4 valve OHC heads, with S&S parts. They did ok, about on a par with their 2 valvers. I have some dyno sheets I can post, if I can find them.
Just moved to central Florida after 32+ years in south Florida.
John

[Deye76]

"Just moved to central Florida after 32+ years in south Florida."

Awesome, much closer now. 

[FSG]

These new Exhaust Studs look to be easily installed with the end hex

[04efidynasuperglide]

mr sachs, where are you located in cfl ? 

[Ohio HD]

These new Exhaust Studs look to be easily installed with the end hex

       Was probably a time saver on the line. 

[FSG]

    Was probably a time saver on the line.

[Deye76]

mr sachs, where are you located in cfl ?

1252 Catalina Blvd.
Deltona, Fl. 32725
386-561-9044

[HD/Wrench]

pentaroof head .. is not new by any means , but as stated this is for a low rpm engine .  time will tell  as to how they work , and what can be done to improve them. Who knows they may be a great head right out the gate. after all 95% of the guys want that low end grunt any ways .. as the 6 speed trans has too many gears or maybe they just dont like to shift   

[PoorUB]

after all 95% of the guys want that low end grunt any ways .. as the 6 speed trans has too many gears or maybe they just dont like to shift 

That about covers it. I find it amazing that guys bitch that their engine will not pull long grades at 60 MPH in 6th gear. Down shift!

I remember when I had my '05 and it was a stock 88". Guys were complaining about the performance in the mountains. On the other hand I had been out in the mountains and tore them up on my stock 88", but I had discovered the lever do-hickey by my left foot helps a bunch if you take a second to move it down a notch or two.

[SixShooter14]

after all 95% of the guys want that low end grunt any ways .. as the 6 speed trans has too many gears or maybe they just dont like to shift 

That about covers it. I find it amazing that guys bitch that their engine will not pull long grades at 60 MPH in 6th gear. Down shift!

I remember when I had my '05 and it was a stock 88". Guys were complaining about the performance in the mountains. On the other hand I had been out in the mountains and tore them up on my stock 88", but I had discovered the lever do-hickey by my left foot helps a bunch if you take a second to move it down a notch or two.

It's a common problem in 4-wheeled rigs as well...folks are afraid of rpms

The emission regs force trannys to stay in as high a gear possible to save fuel. But pulling those revs higher up on the power curves sure helps it perform

[Hossamania]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

[rbabos]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

I thought you gave up trying to fix stupid?
Ron

[Hossamania]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

I thought you gave up trying to fix stupid?
Ron

This was years ago. Although, some habits are hard to break, I still occasionally offer advice, but it happens much less now.

[moscooter]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

That minivan likely had disc brakes on the front and drums on the back or maybe all disc.  Had he (drums all around) or a heavier van/truck,  he would learn to use the transmission lower gears in a pretty quick time.

Once you experience genuine brake "fade",  you don't soon forget.

[FLHRI_2004]

. . . Once you experience genuine brake "fade",  you don't soon forget.

Yeah, been there, done that ('66 Chevelle 6 cyl car converted to a 283, four small drums). 

[PoorUB]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

Gonenorth and I ride out west every year and end up following bikes more than we like. It seems like everyone of them is dragging the brakes going down grades and we will run one gear lower and rarely touch the brakes. I swear I have followed riders for miles and the brakes are on just about the whole time, I can even smell the hot brake pads following.

[Templer]

Have used reverse going down a grade and having a brake failure WILL cause a blessed release in your under wear failure !!

[BVHOG]

Has anyone considered the increased cost of modifying these heads?  8 valves, 8 ports 8 springs, seals etc. Gonna cost a bunch more for sure.

[TorQuePimp]

Has anyone considered the increased cost of modifying these heads?  8 valves, 8 ports 8 springs, seals etc. Gonna cost a bunch more for sure.

Not sure every build will need springs but yeah....8 valves is going to be double the coin

[SP33DY]

Has anyone considered the increased cost of modifying these heads?  8 valves, 8 ports 8 springs, seals etc. Gonna cost a bunch more for sure.

Based on my experiences porting 4-valve automotive race heads, the valves, seats, guides, and springs aren't terribly expensive unless you use Titanium valves and Beryllium seats.

(Health warning, Beryllium is highly carcinogenic, and I am not recommending it, but I did use it back when "it seemed like a good idea" for seats for Titanium valves.) 

The valves and springs are tiny when compared to the hardware we used in typical Harley performance builds on the earlier engines.

The porting time isn't much more either, partly because the bowls are so small, and partly because the 4 valve heads I've worked on didn't need a lot of material to be removed to get good flow.  The automotive heads I worked on needed to be set up for mechanical injection with methanol fuel so welding and reshaping work at the port entry was an additional factor, but hopefully the new M-8 heads won't need a lot of attention in that area.

[motolocopat]

I'm guessing that a little cleanup of ports, matching of mating surfaces and a multi-angle valve job will go a long ways.

[SP33DY]

I'm guessing that a little cleanup of ports, matching of mating surfaces and a multi-angle valve job will go a long ways.

That pretty much sums it up. The valve seat angles and the throat / min. csa are the tricky part.

[1FSTRK]

Anyone know the valve sizes, stem diameter, spring sizes,etc?
In the pictures they look like the 7mm stem sportster valves and springs.

[Durwood]

Anyone know the valve sizes, stem diameter, spring sizes,etc?
In the pictures they look like the 7mm stem sportster valves and springs.

Intake valves are 39.8mm and Exhaust valves are 32mm.

Stem diameter and spring sizes I don't know.

[1FSTRK]

Anyone know the valve sizes, stem diameter, spring sizes,etc?
In the pictures they look like the 7mm stem sportster valves and springs.

Intake valves are 39.8mm and Exhaust valves are 32mm.

Stem diameter and spring sizes I don't know.

Thanks
Those are not as big as Vrod performance valves.

[Don D]

51 and 54% larger valve area respectively as compared to an oem TC head.

[ocezam]

The REAL question is: can they be retrofitted to my TwinCam??

Nope

[rigidthumper]

I used one of those for almost 20 years. 

[HD/Wrench]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

I thought you gave up trying to fix stupid?
Ron

I have shirt like that.. " I cant fix stupid but I can diagnose it "   

[dynajohn]

I'm bettin John Sachs has some ideas[emoji6]

4 valve heads are nothing new, Honda (and others) have been using them for quite a while.
One of the differences is 'swirl', has become 'tumble'.

There are countless advantages to 4 valve over 2. More flow with less lift being a biggie. Lighter
components, better cylinder fill, ports are smaller (higher velocity) and on and on...

This will be a game-changer. Hopefully the motors will be able to hold up to these things...

Well said. look to shops that have a ton of 4 valve experience and are also porting Harley heads like Ward Performance and Star racing to be first out of the blocks in developing good ported 4 valve Harley heads. Both of these shops have tons of pro stock experience with 4 valve heads. Bigger alone is almost never better particularly for street ported heads, 2 valve or 4 valve.

[tmwmoose]

The heads are not retro to any other engine
There are adjustable push rods and cam available with big bore kit also

Boy I wish Harley started using those exhaust studs years ago to many times when your in a hurry ya got one that just fights ya all day to get started

[TorQuePimp]

Think New way when it comes to valve tools
Just my 2 cents
Spendy but long lasting

Neways should never be used on a Harley....lawnmower...at best

[rbabos]

Think New way when it comes to valve tools
Just my 2 cents
Spendy but long lasting

Neways should never be used on a Harley....lawnmower...at best

Way to go, as in hurt the guys feelings. Anyway, I've seen them and wondered about them. Care to share the downside of these cutters so the rest of us can make a determination?
Ron

[SP33DY]

Way to go, as in hurt the guys feelings. Anyway, I've seen them and wondered about them. Care to share the downside of these cutters so the rest of us can make a determination?
Ron

I started using Neway cutters in the '70's, and then progressed to grinders and guide and seat machines.

They are as good as the person using them.

For freshening a seat when the original valve guide is being retained, they work fine.

Solid pilots work best with these, in my experience the expanding pilots are not as good.

Taking your time and working carefully, you can do a good job.

Paint the seat with Dykem, then gently turn the 46° cutter once around on the seat and check to make sure that it cleaned off some Dykem all the way around. If not, try to reseat the pilot or you will have concentricity problems, poor valve seal etc. (Lack of concentricity can lead to a broken valve).

Once the 45° is clear of pitting, put prussian blue on the seat and see where it transfers to the valve. That way you can make the necessary top and bottom cuts to place the seat contact in the correct place on the valve.

When you're done check your valve to seat contact with a light application of prussian blue. It should transfer an unbroken ring to the seat, then clean off the valve, it should transfer an unbroken ring to the valve.

The first down side is it's a slow process compared to using a seat grinder or a guide and seat machine.

The second downer is that it's a lot harder to do if you replaced the valve guide. You would think it doesn't matter, especially with a high quality guide like an AV&V or HQ, that has almost perfect concentricity from i.d. to o.d. out of the box. But usually the relationship of the valve guide to the seat changes a little bit after removing the old guide and installing the new one.

At this point properly refinishing the seat with Neway cutters is a real chore. It can be done, but it requires a certain amount of skill, patience and feel.

If you just want to do your own heads and maybe help a buddy once in a while, it is a good way to do it. You may get the bug, then top quality valve grinders, and guide and seat machines, are in your future.

[Pete_Vit]

Quick tranny observation, not only do people not downshift going up grades, they don't downshift going down. Had a minivan driver complaining about using so much brake coming down a mountain grade. I asked if he downshifted out of overdrive, and maybe even to second gear. He looked at me like I was talking a different language.

That minivan likely had disc brakes on the front and drums on the back or maybe all disc.  Had he (drums all around) or a heavier van/truck,  he would learn to use the transmission lower gears in a pretty quick time.

Once you experience genuine brake "fade",  you don't soon forget.

[rbabos]

Way to go, as in hurt the guys feelings. Anyway, I've seen them and wondered about them. Care to share the downside of these cutters so the rest of us can make a determination?
Ron

I started using Neway cutters in the '70's, and then progressed to grinders and guide and seat machines.

They are as good as the person using them.

For freshening a seat when the original valve guide is being retained, they work fine.

Solid pilots work best with these, in my experience the expanding pilots are not as good.

Taking your time and working carefully, you can do a good job.

Paint the seat with Dykem, then gently turn the 46° cutter once around on the seat and check to make sure that it cleaned off some Dykem all the way around. If not, try to reseat the pilot or you will have concentricity problems, poor valve seal etc. (Lack of concentricity can lead to a broken valve).

Once the 45° is clear of pitting, put prussian blue on the seat and see where it transfers to the valve. That way you can make the necessary top and bottom cuts to place the seat contact in the correct place on the valve.

When you're done check your valve to seat contact with a light application of prussian blue. It should transfer an unbroken ring to the seat, then clean off the valve, it should transfer an unbroken ring to the valve.

The first down side is it's a slow process compared to using a seat grinder or a guide and seat machine.

The second downer is that it's a lot harder to do if you replaced the valve guide. You would think it doesn't matter, especially with a high quality guide like an AV&V or HQ, that has almost perfect concentricity from i.d. to o.d. out of the box. But usually the relationship of the valve guide to the seat changes a little bit after removing the old guide and installing the new one.

At this point properly refinishing the seat with Neway cutters is a real chore. It can be done, but it requires a certain amount of skill, patience and feel.

If you just want to do your own heads and maybe help a buddy once in a while, it is a good way to do it. You may get the bug, then top quality valve grinders, and guide and seat machines, are in your future.

Good explanation but isn't grinding have the same issue with guide and or replacements? I guess the grinder would be quicker and less prone to off center seat loading?
Ron

[TorQuePimp]

Think New way when it comes to valve tools
Just my 2 cents
Spendy but long lasting

Neways should never be used on a Harley....lawnmower...at best

Way to go, as in hurt the guys feelings. Anyway, I've seen them and wondered about them. Care to share the downside of these cutters so the rest of us can make a determination?
Ron

Concentricity

All seat and guide work.....race street or otherwise should get the same level of attention

  the pilots are too short and do not center properly

Relying on a person to use the T handle or the gimmic powered driver they sell or a damn hand drill to cut seats that will be even mediocre is a stretch

Ive had "performance" heads in my shop done recently done with neways and if you want worn out guides....you got your moneys worth

Are some people better at it than others ? yes ofcourse

I own about $3500+ worth of Neway products and use modified drivers in my seat and guide machine for applications out of the realm of normal machine operation.

http://new3acut.com/new3acut.html

makes some tooling

I get the rest from the company in India who makes all of my carbide pilots

[SP33DY]

Good explanation but isn't grinding have the same issue with guide and or replacements? I guess the grinder would be quicker and less prone to off center seat loading?
Ron

The grinders and guide and seat machines are still prone to the same problems as the Neway cutters, but it's not as hard for a conscientious machinist to get it right. Not all seat grinders and guide and seat machines are created equal either. Over the last 45 years I've been over that ground. I have owned or operated most types of seat grinders, and guide and seat machines. My current machine is a Serdi that I bought new, and even it has it's quirks.

Until you have checked valve seats with a good concentricity gauge on a carbide pilot, and checked valve face concentricity in a good fixture, it's hard to realize how bad a valve job can be, even though it may look nice and pass the Prussian blue check.

It's all in the details, regardless of how you try to get there.

[aharp]

The second downer is that it's a lot harder to do if you replaced the valve guide. You would think it doesn't matter, especially with a high quality guide like an AV&V or HQ, that has almost perfect concentricity from i.d. to o.d. out of the box. But usually the relationship of the valve guide to the seat changes a little bit after removing the old guide and installing the new one.

The amount of cutting required when replacing with an AV&V guide has made me greatly question the MOCO's order of operations and/or concentricity of the oem valve guides.

[SP33DY]

The amount of cutting required when replacing with an AV&V guide has made me greatly question the MOCO's order of operations and/or concentricity of the oem valve guides.

The current guides from the mother ship have been checking good on a guide concentricity gauge. I have been finding the seat concentricity on new or unmolested take-off twin cam heads to be all over the map. Some are spot on, and some are way out of concentricity. I have not had a M8 in here to check yet.

I pay a lot of attention to this and check record almost everything from the start to finish of each job. Even on heads that had good seat concentricity to start with, they usually lose some alignment when changing the guides. I have gone to the trouble to make piloted fixtures to remove and replace guides, and I heat the heads, and chill the guides for both removal and replacement, but they still usually show some misalignment when the new guides are in.

I think it is just the nature of the head castings, and how they react to the press fit of the guides.

[Don D]

Until you have checked valve seats with a good concentricity gauge on a carbide pilot, and checked valve face concentricity in a good fixture, it's hard to realize how bad a valve job can be, even though it may look nice and pass the Prussian blue check.

True that 

I pay a lot of attention to this and check record almost everything from the start to finish of each job. Even on heads that had good seat concentricity to start with, they usually lose some alignment when changing the guides. I have gone to the trouble to make piloted fixtures to remove and replace guides, and I heat the heads, and chill the guides for both removal and replacement, but they still usually show some misalignment when the new guides are in.

Of course they do. Check the guides that came out for concentricity to the OD. Tells most of the story. The rest of the story is the MOCO does valve jobs by CNC using a tool that sets from a datum and plunges the guide hole and seat with a form tool all at once. Lean manufacturing at it's finest. When we replace the guides that are perfectly concentric and in alignment with what should be the datum, the spring seat with a perpendicular guide hole, now the seat ring may or may not be close. Add annoyances such as chambers that are lower or higher due to core shift and you have more nuances. IME early twin cams and EVOs did no have this issue. We have to play the hand dealt or fold and replace and remachine everything.

[sbcharlie]

Got to love those cookie cutter valve jobs

[jsachs1]

Got to love those cookie cutter valve jobs
[/quote)
Especially the MoCo big valve heads with the large throats. The seat id is lucky to have a 360* third angle. Their location relative to the guide, is the reason for the proud 45*. 
John

[Don D]

I am not sure I understand how they machine the big valve heads in production. Those seats have an undercut that would not be possible with a form tool that plunges. Perhaps it tool changes after plunging the guide hole and goes to a single point tool and forms the seat like a Newen does but without a pilot which is not needed. I sure hate the material they use in those seats

[TorQuePimp]

I am not sure I understand how they machine the big valve heads in production. Those seats have an undercut that would not be possible with a form tool that plunges. Perhaps it tool changes after plunging the guide hole and goes to a single point tool and forms the seat like a Newen does but without a pilot which is not needed. I sure hate the material they use in those seats

That's where the guys with a Serdi or newen or peg have an advantage.....cutting speed and a spritz of lube.....nice shiny finish on those powdered metal bastard's

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone confirmed that factory seats are re-cut after installation in the head?

With modern manufacturing techniques where the guide bore and seat bore are cut in the same set-up and the the guides and seats are precision machined before installation do they then ream the guide and re-cut the seat at all?

[Don D]

http://www.guehring.de/pdf/Cylinder_head_machining.pdf

[prodrag1320]

I used neway cutters before we got our SERDI 100.their OK for a guy working on his own (& buddies) heads.when used with carbide pilots (& a lot of patience),they will do a OK job,but nothing compaired to a real guide & seat machine.we`ve done tons of 4 valve stuff here for years,with the HD 4 valve stuff & jap heads (been doing a lot of yamaha stratoliner heads for a couple shops up north for the past couple years)

[leafman60]

Was there not a 4 valve head awhile back that fitted to a EVO? Fueling,Quantum,Rivera I think. What happened to those and could the ideas from the M-8 be used/based on those? I have been told of Evos with TC top end, so why not TC Hemi heads? Same design on the rockers but maybe not Euro 4/Ca legal. WHO would care? Are not the 4 valve design best at rpms better then 5500? What would a EVO/Hemi 4 motor do to the M-8 114 side by side??? V-Rod ver stock M-8 114 

Feuling

-but they never made a big splash. The slow-spinning H-D twins seemed to benefit less from 4 valves than did other engines more typically revved to higher levels.

http://thekneeslider.com/4-valve-hemi-heads-for-harley-big-twin-engines/

http://www.feulingparts.com/aboutus.php

[rbabos]

Was there not a 4 valve head awhile back that fitted to a EVO? Fueling,Quantum,Rivera I think. What happened to those and could the ideas from the M-8 be used/based on those? I have been told of Evos with TC top end, so why not TC Hemi heads? Same design on the rockers but maybe not Euro 4/Ca legal. WHO would care? Are not the 4 valve design best at rpms better then 5500? What would a EVO/Hemi 4 motor do to the M-8 114 side by side??? V-Rod ver stock M-8 114 

Feuling

-but they never made a big splash. The slow-spinning H-D twins seemed to benefit less from 4 valves than did other engines more typically revved to higher levels.

http://thekneeslider.com/4-valve-hemi-heads-for-harley-big-twin-engines/

http://www.feulingparts.com/aboutus.php

Think EPA more then performance although the extra performance aspect is there as a side benefit.
Ron

[Eccool]

No one has had a set of these heads on the flow bench yet? 

[SP33DY]

No one has had a set of these heads on the flow bench yet? 

You may want to check with SBCharlie, I think he was working with a set.

I just tried to buy them again from a dealer with a large online following. Found them on Saturday with a part number search, and it looked like I finally was going to succeed!

Then yesterday I got an email stating that they refunded my payment stating that the MoCo won't let them sell them.

^@&$!!!

[HD/Wrench]

A shop in AL has had them on a bench for a while now . FB pics date to OCt 16th. Not sure he posted anything though as far as flow .

[1FSTRK]

Most just buy a bike, you need the bike to find the results of the head work anyways.

[HD/Wrench]

Most just buy a bike, you need the bike to find the results of the head work anyways.

True statement there

[SP33DY]

Most just buy a bike, you need the bike to find the results of the head work anyways.

I would love to own an example of every car and bike I ever ported a set of heads for! Unfortunately my pockets aren't that deep.
When I spend some time working on a set of heads, it's never a problem to get a bike to put them on to check it out.

[-deuced-]

No one has had a set of these heads on the flow bench yet? 

You may want to check with SBCharlie, I think he was working with a set.

I just tried to buy them again from a dealer with a large online following. Found them on Saturday with a part number search, and it looked like I finally was going to succeed!

Then yesterday I got an email stating that they refunded my payment stating that the MoCo won't let them sell them.

^@&$!!!

Still early days. Perhaps all the current inventory is earmarked for production.

[prodrag1320]

we`ve worked (& made improvements) on every type of 4 valve head ever introduced for HD`s.waiting for a set now.ill post some stuff when their on the bench

[sbcharlie]

That pro drag guy is one amazing guy

[No Cents]

     ...and he's fast too. 
Nice job on the new et Kirby!

Ray

[SLAATY]

Been awhile - still no news from our resident machinists? I suspect there will be improvements, but they'll have to be pretty impressive to justify the expense.

Not sure what kind of gains will be realized with these 4 valve heads.

[mattVA]

Been awhile - still no news from our resident machinists? I suspect there will be improvements, but they'll have to be pretty impressive to justify the expense.

Not sure what kind of gains will be realized with these 4 valve heads.

Star Racing has been doing some headwork on George Bryce's personal bike. He said initial results are very promising.

[Ohio HD]

Fuel Moto is ramping up for testing.


https://www.facebook.com/FuelMoto/photos/a.482035466533.264110.112355296533/10153869628931534/?type=3&theater

[sbcharlie]

i got 2 sets of oil cooled, and one oil cooled set today. now since we have heads, i am designing valve opening fixture. i am designing fixture to open each valve separately to check flow and test tandem. good christmas present to work on over holidays. sbc   it sure a fun bike to ride

[joe_lyons]

i got 2 sets of oil cooled, and one oil cooled set today. now since we have heads, i am designing valve opening fixture. i am designing fixture to open each valve separately to check flow and test tandem. good christmas present to work on over holidays. sbc   it sure a fun bike to ride

Keep us updated charlie.

[FSG]

i got 2 sets of oil cooled, and one oil cooled set today.

So you have 3 sets of oil cooled ?

[PoorUB]

i got 2 sets of oil cooled, and one oil cooled set today.

So you have 3 sets of oil cooled ?

[sbcharlie]

2 oil cooled and 1 water cooled my mistake

[HD/Wrench]

Charlie what is the point of opening the valves separate ?? I have spent many hours flowing 4 valve heads and always ran both at the same time. Granted over head valve heads . But all the same still both at the same time. I think I know what you are doing and let me know how that goes as .  some of the data gets skewed  as the port is meant to have both open.

[sfmichael]

good thread...starting to consider new bike 

[slimatsea]

Just giving this thread a little bump to see if there is any updated info out there. I'm contemplating the SE stage 3 kit and it comes with high lift valve springs. I'm curious if the new springs with be too heavy like the valve springs that come in the twin cam kits.

[Eccool]

There is a new stage 4 kit out that includes heads.

[rigidthumper]

Some pics from Steve. These are the new CNC heads from HD.

[Durwood]

Some pics from Steve. These are the new CNC heads from HD.

Nice looking heads. Do you know what the chamber volume is?

[rigidthumper]

Not yet [emoji4]

[SP33DY]

Thanks for posting the photos!

[1FSTRK]

Hard to tell from the picture, are those four different size valves?
Would be nice if they were. Any flow or spec info out on them yet?

[joe_lyons]

Hard to tell from the picture, are those four different size valves?
Would be nice if they were. Any flow or spec info out on them yet?

They do look different sizes

Anyone know the valve sizes, stem diameter, spring sizes,etc?
In the pictures they look like the 7mm stem sportster valves and springs.

Intake valves are 39.8mm and Exhaust valves are 32mm.

Stem diameter and spring sizes I don't know.

Thanks
Those are not as big as Vrod performance valves.

[1FSTRK]

Hard to tell from the picture, are those four different size valves?
Would be nice if they were. Any flow or spec info out on them yet?

They do look different sizes

Anyone know the valve sizes, stem diameter, spring sizes,etc?
In the pictures they look like the 7mm stem sportster valves and springs.

Intake valves are 39.8mm and Exhaust valves are 32mm.

Stem diameter and spring sizes I don't know.

Thanks
Those are not as big as Vrod performance valves.

I have the stock sizes on file, I am wondering if the change valves and stagger sizes when they cnc the heads.

[joe_lyons]

What's the part number of this new kit or of just the CNC heads?

[15fltrxs]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HD/Wrench]

notice new casting   

[rigidthumper]

Did you notice the 515 cam has published F&R specs?

[joe_lyons]

Hard to tell from the picture, are those four different size valves?
Would be nice if they were. Any flow or spec info out on them yet?

Valves are not different sizes from each other.  The Instruction sheet shows 4 intake valves and 4 exhaust valves but no info on their part numbers yet.

[HD/Wrench]

64 MM t/b hope it tunes better than the other SE version. Not a huge fan of the hurricane T/B , new 5.5  how its a fan and not a stream unit again like the Hurricane

[joe_lyons]

5.5 GPS injectors also

[HD/Wrench]

Sorry joe was re typing

[rigidthumper]

What's the part number of this new kit or of just the CNC heads?

More info here:  http://accessories.harley-davidson.eu/products/#!/collection/my17_5/page/4
Haven't found the US link yet.

[joe_lyons]

Looks like Bosch ls9 injectors



Or close to this one http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/1-ls3-l99-l76-ls7-type-39lb-hr-injectorhtml/
don't know if the SE Injector is a twin spray or?

[joe_lyons]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can you take a pic of the full specs of the new 515 cam?

[15fltrxs]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rigidthumper]

Interesting how they changed the rocker ratio...

[Tom Hockenberry]

M8 on a Sportster ?  That could be interesting.