Milwaukee 8 Big bore kit disassembly & installation

[Jamie Long]

We are disassembling the motor on our 2017 Milwaukee Eight bike today in preparation of our big bore kit R&D. We will be installing big bore piston/cylinders and testing several custom bore sizes we had made. We will also be testing an assortment of cams, cylinder heads, and other assorted components. We have a load of parts here ready to be tested including injectors, throttle bodies, exhaust systems, clutches, etc.. so it is going to take some time to get thru everything.

[Jamie Long]

Some images with the rocker covers removed:

[Ohio HD]

Nice! I look forward to seeing what the results will be for the upgrades.   

[Jamie Long]

Some assorted images of the M8 engine during disassembly. Motor has just under 2000 miles, and a good amount was on the dyno. I'm not too concerned with the carbon buildup considering we used this bike to develop all of our 107" calibrations so it spent more time than normal in an untuned state. I will say that this motor did not have great ring seal initially, as others have noted with their M8's ours puffed some blue smoke when it was new before the motor got up to temp, however after some miles the smoking disappeared so we were not concerned.

[Jamie Long]

More images of the disassembled M8 engine:

[joe_lyons]

What bore sizes are you guys playing with?

[NCTURBOS]

What bore sizes are you guys playing with?

^^What he said...^^

Will 4.250" be one of them? Going to sign the line on my '17 R.G. tomorrow after work!   

K.

[Jamie Long]

What bore sizes are you guys playing with?

We'll be releasing info on the bore sizes we are testing once we get thru some of the initial testing.

[Jamie Long]

Milwaukee 8 injectors; note dual spray pattern and injectors are no longer identified by a colored band they now use a paint dot on the injector body. The red dot is a 5.5gm injector

[rbabos]

Milwaukee 8 injectors; note dual spray pattern and injectors are no longer identified by a colored band they now use a paint dot on the injector body. The red dot is a 5.5gm injector

Purdy O rings on those. Why are they so big and fat?
Ron

[Jamie Long]

New dual knock sensors & updated engine temp sensor on the 2017 Milwaukee 8 engine.

[joe_lyons]

Milwaukee 8 injectors; note dual spray pattern and injectors are no longer identified by a colored band they now use a paint dot on the injector body. The red dot is a 5.5gm injector

Purdy O rings on those. Why are they so big and fat?
Ron

That's probably just how Bosch sells them

[Tommy D]

Milwaukee 8 injectors; note dual spray pattern and injectors are no longer identified by a colored band they now use a paint dot on the injector body. The red dot is a 5.5gm injector

Jamie,

5.5 OE ?
What mm TB is the MoCo using ?

[Jamie Long]

Jamie,

5.5 OE ?
What mm TB is the MoCo using ?

The factory injectors are 4.35gm and the throttle body is 55mm on both 107 & 114 M8 models

[Jamie Long]

Here are a few of the components we are installing. Fuel Moto big bore kit, Wood Performance M8 directional lifters, high lift valve springs, & Knight Prowler WM8-999 cams.

[FSG]

Directional lifters have only one flat that would go against the anti rotation pin in a TC, how are they going to be managed in an M8 which uses a guide similar to what's in a Sportster.

Does Wood Performance provide a replacement guide?

[rbabos]

Directional lifters have only one flat that would go against the anti rotation pin in a TC, how are they going to be managed in an M8 which uses a guide similar to what's in a Sportster.

Does Wood Performance provide a replacement guide?

Is that a guide or the interference lifter holder?
Ron

[FSG]

That's the new Anti-Rotation Device that replaces the way they did it in the TC's.  These new devices have 2 flats for each lifter so I'm curious as to how anyones directional lifters are going to be fitted. 

I guess there's another Aftermarket Product for someone to make.

[rbabos]

That's the new Anti-Rotation Device that replaces the way they did it in the TC's.  These new devices have 2 flats for each lifter so I'm curious as to how anyones directional lifters are going to be fitted. 

I guess there's another Aftermarket Product for someone to make.

Cool. I guess I should have looked at the breakdown before typing. I see what you are saying. The purpose of a directional lifter still evades me however.
Ron
Ron

[BVHOG]

Woods directional lifters aka Johnson Hylift

[borno]

Maybe O.T. , but those new rocker covers remind me of the old rock 'em sock 'em robots 

[biglew55]

Maybe O.T. , but those new rocker covers remind me of the old rock 'em sock 'em robots 

New contest.... First one to have a red one and a blue one on the same bike wins!! 

[Durwood]

More images of the disassembled M8 engine:

Were you able to use the stock push rod tubes with the FM Twin Cam push rods?

[Jamie Long]

Were you able to use the stock push rod tubes with the FM Twin Cam push rods?

Yes, same pushrods as Twin Cam with stock pushrod tubes

[FSG]

Directional lifters have only one flat that would go against the anti rotation pin in a TC, how are they going to be managed in an M8 which uses a guide similar to what's in a Sportster.

Does Wood Performance provide a replacement guide?

Jamie  what's the deal with the Wood Performance M8 directional lifters?

[Jamie Long]

[Jamie  what's the deal with the Wood Performance M8 directional lifters?

The lifters are designed so the oil hole aligns with the oil passage.

[rbabos]

I think FSG was meaning and what I was wondering too is how they accomplish the direction with the M8 anti rotation device or do they supply a one flat only retainer to replace the OEM part? As for lining up the hole, unless the galleys have changed from what the TC arrangement was, technically there is no need for feed hole alignment.
Ron

[Jamie Long]

I think FSG was meaning and what I was wondering too is how they accomplish the direction with the M8 anti rotation device or do they supply a one flat only retainer to replace the OEM part? As for lining up the hole, unless the galleys have changed from what the TC arrangement was, technically there is no need for feed hole alignment.
Ron

The Wood M8 lifters have 2 flats on them.

[FSG]

The Wood M8 lifters have 2 flats on them.

In that case they are not directional.

[1FSTRK]

The Wood M8 lifters have 2 flats on them.

In that case they are not directional.

They say they are directional, a simple instruction sheet telling you which way the oil hole and logo need to face would cover correct installation.

[rbabos]

The Wood M8 lifters have 2 flats on them.

In that case they are not directional.

They say they are directional, a simple instruction sheet telling you which way the oil hole and logo need to face would cover correct installation.

In that case the M8 lifters would need to be directional also. Not sure that is the case, and if not, claiming directional maybe nothing more then hype. TC's were full circle oiling around the lifter and I suspect the M8 is the same. That would need to be verified to validate the need for a specific feed hole orientation and a specific install of the lifter.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

The Wood M8 lifters have 2 flats on them.

In that case they are not directional.

They say they are directional, a simple instruction sheet telling you which way the oil hole and logo need to face would cover correct installation.

In that case the M8 lifters would need to be directional also. Not sure that is the case, and if not, claiming directional maybe nothing more then hype. TC's were full circle oiling around the lifter and I suspect the M8 is the same. That would need to be verified to validate the need for a specific feed hole orientation and a specific install of the lifter.
Ron

Not sure where this is all going.
One flat or two does not make a lifter directional.
Because HD went from guide pins to the Automotive style guides on the lifters simply adding the second flat to the directional twin cam lifter body that he already makes then printing a logo on it for identification would seem a simple fix. Also the mention of aligning the oil feed hole in the lifter with the feed hole in the lifter bore could be an additional way of assuring proper direction when installing instead of a mandate the holes need to be aligned for proper oiling to take place.

[Ohio HD]

My take on the meaning of directional is, they're intended to be installed in a specific orientation, not that they can't be installed differently.


di·rec·tion·al
diˈrekSH(ə)n(ə)l,dīˈrekSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: directional

   
• 1. relating to or indicating the direction in which someone or something is situated, moving, or developing."directional signs wherever two paths joined"
• 2. having a particular direction of motion, progression, or orientation."coiling the wire permits directional flow of the magnetic flux"

[Jamie Long]

They say they are directional, a simple instruction sheet telling you which way the oil hole and logo need to face would cover correct installation.

^this^

[les]

Jamie, just want you to know that I'm impatiently checking this thread frequently.  Very interesting.  So, get your butt out there in the garage and send up more postings!

Oops...guess I should have used that foul language after your final posting.  Ignore what I wrote above.   

[FSG]

TC's were full circle oiling around the lifter and I suspect the M8 is the same.

M8s use the crappy -99C Lifter which are full circle oiling around the lifter.

So where do the exhaust lifter oil holes face on an M8?

[trex]

Some images with the rocker covers removed:

Never saw this mentioned before, the rocker shafts have a bolt through them now, no need for the Rocker Lockers on the M8

[04efidynasuperglide]

Jamie, I see marking of rocker shaft boss on one of heads,,  what to make of ?

[harley_cruiser]

Some images with the rocker covers removed:

Never saw this mentioned before, the rocker shafts have a bolt through them now, no need for the Rocker Lockers on the M8

Nope,
subscribed.

[FSG]

Some images with the rocker covers removed:

Never saw this mentioned before, the rocker shafts have a bolt through them now, no need for the Rocker Lockers on the M8

Oh I've seen it before, so has at least one of the vendors providing lockers for the shafts (I forget which one) as I remember they claimed HD had made the change due to becoming aware of the shaft problem with the exposure of the locking product.

[harley_cruiser]

Some images with the rocker covers removed:

Never saw this mentioned before, the rocker shafts have a bolt through them now, no need for the Rocker Lockers on the M8

Oh I've seen it before, so has at least one of the vendors providing lockers for the shafts (I forget which one) as I remember they claimed HD had made the change due to becoming aware of the shaft problem with the exposure of the locking product.

I don't believe it was one of the venders but a poster who said this. I really doubt HD designed a new motor just to...............
Sorry this is getting off topic.

[FSG]

I don't believe it was one of the venders but a poster who said this. I really doubt HD designed a new motor just to...............
Sorry this is getting off topic.

I don't believe it was one of the venders but a poster who said this.  so you've seen it or are aware if it?

It was a vendor and made the change is a little different to designed a new motor just to..

[harley_cruiser]

I don't believe it was one of the venders but a poster who said this. I really doubt HD designed a new motor just to...............
Sorry this is getting off topic.

I don't believe it was one of the venders but a poster who said this.  so you've seen it or are aware if it?

It was a vendor and made the change is a little different to designed a new motor just to..

If it was a vendor, then no I have not seen that. It was not me.   

[1FSTRK]

Maybe this thread?
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=93224.msg1080008#msg1080008

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Maybe this thread?
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=93224.msg1080008#msg1080008

Yep, it was me that made the comment.... the facts speak for themselves.

I make no claims other than what was stated. I'll add that during the design/manufacturing of the M8 the MOCO had my Rockout inserts in their possession. Again, not making any claims, just stating facts.

[harley_cruiser]

If HD wanted to lock the shaft all they had to do was make the bolt fit the hole.
More likely for the change was so the rocker arm could be serviced/installed easier, especially with the two valves per rocker arm. I haven't studied the head, so don't know if the rocker arm bolts to the head or if there is a bottom plate that it bolts to. Either way it would be a pain to torque the plate or head down with the pre-load of the two valves/lifters, with the shaft encased in the tower, much easier just to pull the rocker arm down independently with bolt through it.
And we all know the MOCO is all about assembly line speed.
Sorry Jamie for the off topic, enjoying your tear down.

[FSG]

I'll add that during the design/manufacturing of the M8 the MOCO had my Rockout inserts in their possession.

And how is that known?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I'll add that during the design/manufacturing of the M8 the MOCO had my Rockout inserts in their possession.

And how is that known?

I would not make a statement concerning the MOCO on a public forum that I could not back up with proof.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

[attach=0]

[harley_cruiser]

 I took a closer look, The towers are cast into the head, if they had left the caps on like the printed out prototype, you would be torquing down the heads as well as pre-loading the lifters, and one of the head bolts is under the rocker arm. If you wanted to do any work on the cam you would need to pull the head, which would be practical impossible since the bolt is under the rocker arm.
I guess you could cut the push rods, ect.
This is why the changed the design so that the rocker arm is bolted in and does not have a cap, so the rocker arm can be removed.
Not because of rhetoric on the internet.

[1FSTRK]

I would respectfully submit the head was never designed to have the rockers and pushrods in when torqued down. In the cad-cam world the drawing is the part, it can be used to generate a printed part, machining program or mold. I do not see HD making it to the 3-D printer stage without a plan to assemble and service the valve train without removing heads or cutting pushrods. Given the drawing is the part and the printed part shows slide in shafts with one end set up for a bolt to secure them, add the fact the printed engine shows no rockers or pushrods I wonder if the original design called for either an adjustable rockers or adjustable pushrods. It really does not matter for this thread but it would be an AH HA moment to realize milling the top off the shaft tower makes the assembly possible and the rocker cheaper all at the same time. It would also eliminate the factory adjustment step, could have been pure bean counter design.
Just thinking out loud here, you just never know.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I took a closer look, The towers are cast into the head, if they had left the caps on like the printed out prototype, you would be torquing down the heads as well as pre-loading the lifters, and one of the head bolts is under the rocker arm. If you wanted to do any work on the cam you would need to pull the head, which would be practical impossible since the bolt is under the rocker arm.
I guess you could cut the push rods, ect.
This is why the changed the design so that the rocker arm is bolted in and does not have a cap, so the rocker arm can be removed.
Not because of rhetoric on the internet.

Actually, you have that exactly backwards. What I posted is verifiable fact. What you posted is the definition of "rhetoric on the internet."

10 or so posts back you knew absolutely nothing about the design, now you're the foremost authority. Your way or the wrong way. OK man.

Unlike you I won't apologize to Jamie for taking the thread off track, then continue to do so. I'm through here.

[SLAATY]

SOOOOO....

Rhetoric aside, what's the latest on this big bore business? Been almost 3 mo's now, and your public awaits.

[Jamie Long]

SOOOOO....

Rhetoric aside, what's the latest on this big bore business? Been almost 3 mo's now, and your public awaits.

Here's the latest on our end http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97940.0