My Dead M8 Road King

[Ohio HD]

Am I missing something looking at the pix I don't see anything wrong 

I can't upload nice big pics. So if I may I will take each pic.

Remember the King as 1500 miles on it. Bought new years eve 2016. Paid cash and rode it home.

Pic 1) Top ring was already blowing by. Second ring was still catching combustion pressure. Massive blow by just mins. to a hour or so away before it started smoking and killing skeeters. That proof is in the piston skirt. You don't apply anti friction material to the skirts of the pistons to polish a perfect oval through that material. IE piston slap.

Just FYI, but that "perfect oval" is there for measuring purposes, not from piston slap. Fact of the matter is that piston doesn't look harmed/bad/warrantable IMO, and neither does that cylinder. Measure in torque plates, or it doesn't count. Poor ring seal can easily be fixed, as can bad valve stem seals-which should be replaced anytime you're this far down. I still think the issue is the wrong oil pump, but if they never take it out to check, you'll never know.  None of us have x-ray vision, magic wands, or accurate crystal balls.

That perfect oval was not man made. TQ Plates would have given us a MAX of .004 +/-. Either way its not good. I used a working example or .001-.003 because most folks freak if you mix odd and even numbers on spec measure in a idiot debate concerning tq brackets. If VW, TATA, Kohler, Briggs, Wright or Pratt or any number of manufactures put all there base measure into TQ Brakects as the bottom line they would be complete idiots. All agree TQ Brackets are a must for finial setup / bore for air cooled engines. Fact remains Harley does no give a **** and puts all the eggs in a Easter basket of thin walled cylinder's. IE we don't do massive bores or even corrective bores on rebuilds. That went away with shovels or the base mark iron heads. We buy new jugs. I come from a tool & die, machine tool back ground. That perfect oval is not dealer done or jigged up. Thats piston slap as admitted by the dealer. When you put a loop on it. It's very clear. If that was man made even jigged up there would be no feathering. The cylinders are oval along the wrist pin,,, period. You TQ Bracket for basic bench has been BS since the radial aircraft engine days that out dates you or I. Why out of all the air cooled engine manufactures do the Harley fan boys say but but tq brackets or jigs? Nobody in basic measurement even debates the subject. But if it's a Harley jug,,, OMFG!

So,,, lets look at other factors concerning the vaulted plate setup shall we? The head surface max is .003", base max is .006". With the base dim. float on a alum. case surface. So lets just say the jug base and top service are perfect. That does not in anyway account for flex in the base mount to case interface. Which is what the damn tq brackets or jigs are suppose to account to?... Naw the brackets give you a true machine reference. Not a real world number concerning head to base interface with tq. While it is very important. It can not be replicated in a running engine. Care to take a look at the pressure wave in a tq'ed thin walled cylinder? Mathematically the combustion pressure wave should control the piston slap.

Even Lyco and Conti don't put as much importance to air cooled jug base measurements as Harley fans do. There jugs are serviceable.... Harleys modern jugs are basically not serviceable. Buy new jugs or big bore and thinner cylinder walls.

Really Dude?

oh boy, one thing you should understand, Rigidthumper has many years in an HD service shop as a senior wrench and tuner. Everything he said to you is fact. 75% of the folks in this group have been inside HD motors for years. So your making huge assumptions as to what's wrong there. I hope your meeting goes in your favor, but I would suggest not showing them how much you know about HD motors during the meeting.

[psyshack]

Look I came to share. I did not even get into ring gap or other issues. And I'm upset the cam chest has not been opened up. If the MoCo has waited to over the 4 week mark to deny warranty why are the idiots sending repair parts to the dealer that do not address to low oil psi? At the 500 mile mark the lead tech and service manager were worried about piston slap. And at that point they where like why isn't it smoking. Harley said ride it. OK I rode it. At 1500 miles I'm done with the pig iron. Feed it to a Muslim I don't care. Back it went at 1500 miles.

No disrespect to a good tech,,, maybe the best tech/wrench that ever walked mother earth. Fact remains,,, it's a air cooled engine. There is no black/dark magic. There are no secrets lost in a updated 1920's American V-Twin Harley Tech that makes less HP and TQ per cc than my Briggs V-Twin Commercial Steel Sleeved OHV riding lawn mower engine. That does not rattle like a tambourine on meth with solid lifters.

It's all good,,, just wanted to share.....

[FSG]

That perfect oval was not man made.

Oh yes it was, it's there for measuring purposes and can be seen on many other HD OEM Pistons and is referred to in the SMs and various Instructions as the place to measure the pistons.

Here's a pic of a piston from a 2017 FLHTK with less than a 1,000 miles

[ultraswede]

Another Harley (TC) piston with the measuring window in the coating.

[FSG]

and here's a cap from the "2017 Harley-Davidson new Milwaukee-Eight engine 'inside the Factory H-D' promo video"

[jbexeter]

No skin in this game.

The op is saying "2468" and others are replying "no, 3579 just ain't so"

Just re-read the thread and the OP nowhere says the meauring window is not factory or not present on factory, he says the edges of the window are feathered, the ASSUMPTION here is the op is technically literate and that the dealer is technically competent, for everything the OP says to not only be true, but to be an understatement, only one thing had to be true.

One of the very early shipped bikes had a "friday job" motor.

Add in the fact that the dealer isn't an appointed and annointed mothership only exclusive dealer, so they are right off relegated to third line factory support channels, and it can easily explain everything here.

500 miles and 1500 miles.... HD should buy the bike back from him at msrp +25% and then ship it back to the factory for R&D to strip and go over with a fine tooth comb to see what went wrong.

As someone else said, a wrong oil pump alone could explain everything, which is down to production QA, and on that alone it's worth the factory nailing it down to get ahead of product recalls and warranty claims.

[FSG]

the ASSUMPTION here is the op is technically literate

Not true, certainly not from here, MO is based on what he's posted

OP says

That perfect oval is not dealer done or jigged up. Thats piston slap as admitted by the dealer. When you put a loop on it. It's very clear. If that was man made even jigged up there would be no feathering.

Well no it's not piston slap, I'd put the feathering seen under the use of an "eye loop" down to 1500 miles with low oil pressure, the coating is actually doing a good job.  But then I've never looked at a measuring window under an "eye loop", maybe the edges are feathered normally.

The low oil pressure is probably due to an incorrect oil pump being fitted as suggected earlier by rigidthumper.

The OPs piston

[rigidthumper]

Look I came to share. I did not even get into ring gap or other issues. And I'm upset the cam chest has not been opened up. If the MoCo has waited to over the 4 week mark to deny warranty why are the idiots sending repair parts to the dealer that do not address to low oil psi? At the 500 mile mark the lead tech and service manager were worried about piston slap. And at that point they where like why isn't it smoking. Harley said ride it. OK I rode it. At 1500 miles I'm done with the pig iron. Feed it to a Muslim I don't care. Back it went at 1500 miles.

No disrespect to a good tech,,, maybe the best tech/wrench that ever walked mother earth. Fact remains,,, it's a air cooled engine. There is no black/dark magic. There are no secrets lost in a updated 1920's American V-Twin Harley Tech that makes less HP and TQ per cc than my Briggs V-Twin Commercial Steel Sleeved OHV riding lawn mower engine. That does not rattle like a tambourine on meth with solid lifters.

It's all good,,, just wanted to share.....

One more piece of info and I'm done. Advice, really- calling the people who're trying to help you out, idiots or morons, isn't helpful.

[twincam8888]

One more piece of info and I'm done. Advice, really- calling the people who're trying to help you out, idiots or morons, isn't helpful.

You won't get a new bike but work with them and you might be able to talk the factory guy into a new engine.

[Sunny Jim]

Well my Road glide M8 is running fine. I am trying to find an excuse to go back to a twin cam, BUT, it does everything right. No rattles or squeaks and it keeps improving. I have even had reports here in OZ of head studs pulling and cases being full of porosity.
I must say it does scare me somewhat, to have all that money invested into lucky dip, but I guess we will push on.

[PoorUB]

1/ voiding a warranty with an aftermarket tuner is one thing.

You could easily blame the top end problems​ in the tuner. I could see HD replacing the oil pump, but anything above the crankcase is fault of the tuner.

[ultraswede]

Is this a case where an oil cooled motor got the water/twin cooled oil pump.....?
(witch to my understanding has less capacity than the oil cooled motors oil pump)

[jbexeter]

Is this a case where an oil cooled motor got the water/twin cooled oil pump.....?
(witch to my understanding has less capacity than the oil cooled motors oil pump)

We don't know, from my reading of it the OP doesn't know either, nor does the dealer, the motor not having been torn down that far.

We do appear to know that oil pressure was very low, so could also be a defective pressure release valve or seat I suppose.

The OP does appear to have a major manufacturing fault, given the mileage.

Many people *appear* to be suggesting that because the OP has a tuner and some aftermarket parts fitted, it's not the factpries fault, for values of fault that include warranty, which to me seems like shades of the iPhone "you're holding it wrong" thing, an antenna is a fundamental part of a wireless device, and a within spec lube oil system is a fundamental part of an IC engine.

If the OP is wrong in his diagnosis of some top end parts, that can happen, but from what the OP said the dealer stated there was piston slap, and from what the OP stated the dealer corroborated the low oil pressure.

The dealer certainly stripped the engine partially, and they are unlikely to do that on a motor with 1500 miles without a very good reason, I would assume.

Even if the OP's interpretation of the condition of the parts is 100% wrong and they are *all* within spec, it doesn't explain the 900 lb gorilla in the room, which is the low oil pressure, attested to by the OP and apparently confirmed by the dealer.

It sounds like a "friday engine"

If it is then the OP's technical literacy isn't relevant.

A good question is what are the flow and pressure curves for the two styles of M8 oil pumps. Or is that proprietary data?

[calif phil]

Why would they give you a complete powertrain?  Your trans and Primary don't have issues do they. 

[PoorUB]

Those here saying it should be warranty, no question. How many here would build me an engine set up and tuner in my motorcycle, then I rip off your exhaust, slap on a tuner and have it re-funded, have engine trouble and expect the original engine builder to warranty it? Huge big gray area in my opinion.

[To The Max]

The only thing I don't understand is what caused the bore to glaze and the lack of top ring seal. everything else is because of low oil pressure for sure.  Good luck go for a new motor. Max

[1FSTRK]

1/ voiding a warranty with an aftermarket tuner is one thing.

You could easily blame the top end problems​ in the tuner. I could see HD replacing the oil pump, but anything above the crankcase is fault of the tuner.

Those here saying it should be warranty, no question. How many here would build me an engine set up and tuner in my motorcycle, then I rip off your exhaust, slap on a tuner and have it re-funded, have engine trouble and expect the original engine builder to warranty it? Huge big gray area in my opinion.

It always comes down to if your buying or selling.
In my opinion neither side can prove "all" damage was caused exclusively by the pump or the tuner/exhaust.
That said if the oil pressure/flow had been right to begin with HD would not be in this mess, it was their responsibility to deliver the product he payed for and a bad/wrong pump "could" have caused all the damage, a pipe and tuner can't cause the wrong pump.

[PoorUB]

Those here saying it should be warranty, no question. How many here would build me an engine set up and tuned in my motorcycle, then I rip off your exhaust, slap on a tuner and have it re-tuned, have engine trouble and expect the original engine builder to warranty it? Huge big gray area in my opinion.

Geeze, damn spell check on my phone!

[K4FXD]

Like the OP, I'd be asking for the moon. The least I'd settle for is a complete new motor.

4 weeks, the lemon law might come into play. Wonder if the dealer gave a loaner?

Too many questions.

Would like to know the result.

[PoorUB]

Lemon law does not apply to motorcycles in many states.

[otter10111]

It's one big hairy deal for sure!!!!!

[sandrooney]

If it is covered under warranty trade it in they should give you trade in as if nothing was wrong. I did it with a truck I had a while back.

[HV]

I think some are missing some info....the Initial care program from HD dictates that any major issues ( Complete Failure ) with the new M8 Engine requires a complete engine be changed ...and everything sent back to HD ....

[metaliser]

I'd just like to know whether they are going to fix this guy's engine or not. And if I was him that's what I'd like to know as well. I don't understand what the hold up is unless the OP pissed someone off at the start of this mess.

[HV]

It would seem its not as simple as it should be .....for what ever reason .....