My Dead M8 Road King

[psyshack]

My dead M8 RK. Low oil pressure. Been loud up top since new. Been in the shop over 3 weeks now. Have a meeting next week with a gent from HD.

[psyshack]

More Pic

[BVHOG]

Interesting, why all the top end picks for a low oil pressure condition?

[psyshack]

Interesting, why all the top end picks for a low oil pressure condition?

Well,,,,, the top end sounded like a tambourine on meth at 1500 miles. It sounded like a worn out twin cam. It was cutting out the rear cylinder in 60f temps at country town stop lights. And why I don't have low end pics is because it was not taken down. I expected the cam chest to be open when I got there. If not the case split. But HD told the dealer to work it from the top down. I took the bike in at 500 miles,,, the top end was going. Spent a few hours at the dealer. Bottom line ride it like you stole it. So I found the rev limiter and the top speed. Neither impressive. Honestly not even a good utility engine. My riding lawn mower engine makes more HP and TQ per cc than the M8. At 1500 miles I could not stand it anymore.

The low end and lifters get the first load of not only psi but volume. While HD does not publish a pump curve for the M8 or any of there oil pumps. But when I pull what HD calls a sending unit and measure the oil psi at idle and 2k rpms and it's below book in the current service manual and the dealer finally confirms it. OOO dam ,,, victim top end. Question why did it never show a idiot light? Why was the idiot light always off?

So next Tuesday a MAN from HD is going to meet with myself and the dealer owner. I have asked for a new bike. So now a man versus the EPA and Harleys kiss Obummers ass show down is about to happen. New I put a set of V&H Eliminators on it a FP3 and a Harley Ventilator. Is Harley MAN going to yank my warranty? Are they going to give me a new bike including TT&L or are they going to just throw a new motor in it? Do I show up to the meeting in my Harley truck ready to haul my bike home in boxs and or a night in jail? Or bend over more?

There move. As of last Sat. my bike has been at the dealer with no resolution for 3 weeks. By the time we meet it will be over 4 weeks my bikes been at the dealer. I honestly don't give a "Potty mouth" what the Harley man has to say. Just say something. I will then make my move.

With the so called EPA lean burn tune coupled with low to at times no oil flow. The top end started letting go. The M8 exhaust valve head cooling failed to work. The low psi and oil volume to the lifters failed to open the valves right.

[rigidthumper]

Could be as simple as the wrong oil pump- two to chose from on the assembly line-oil cooled M8s need the bigger pump, because it has to feed the lubrication side as well as the cooling side. The water head oil pump only has to feel the lube side, so it produces less volume. If you have a water head oil pump in an oil cooled engine, they will be noisy, because the lifters never pump up, and down on power, but shouldn't damage anything. Be curious what they find, and if they verified which pump in installed.

[rider7816]

Is this a common problem with the new M8's?? Im still living in the past with an Ironhead and two TC88's.  I was thinking about upgrading in the next year or two, but may let the MOCO work out some bugs first

[FXDBI]

 New I put a set of V&H Eliminators on it a FP3 and a Harley Ventilator. Is Harley MAN going to yank my warranty?

If you were in Canada warranty would be void. Only Harleys tuner with approved map can be used or warranty is void. Thought this was part of the agreement they made with the epa last year when they changed what the tuners can and cant do.  Don't know how you can toss a FP3 and o2 eliminators on and figure you should be covered on the engine. Did you get a dyno after the install to prove the afr?  I know if I was Harley what I would tell you and you wouldn't like it.   Bob

[Ohio HD]

New I put a set of V&H Eliminators on it a FP3 and a Harley Ventilator. Is Harley MAN going to yank my warranty?

If you were in Canada warranty would be void. Only Harleys tuner with approved map can be used or warranty is void. Thought this was part of the agreement they made with the epa last year when they changed what the tuners can and cant do.  Don't know how you can toss a FP3 and o2 eliminators on and figure you should be covered on the engine. Did you get a dyno after the install to prove the afr?  I know if I was Harley what I would tell you and you wouldn't like it.   Bob

I would bet in the USA the warranty is also voided. Since they took their own performance tuner off the market. All types of exclusions they spell out here.


https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/54638/BLAISE/379239/en_US

[PoorUB]

I would be mildly surprised if HD honors the warranty when you have modified the engine with exhaust and tuner.
I know if I was HD I wouldn't repair it without a fight.

I have never understood this with HD. In the past HD was very lenient with warranty with engine mods. If you bought a new Ford or Chevy and modded it like guys do with their Harley you would not get warranty.

[Northside]

Seems strange with so many M8s running so flawlessly.  While the guy has voided his warranty, I wouldn't be surprised to see either Harley or the dealer good will repair it, if it was a factory defect that caused his problem.  If it was because of a tuning problem with the V&H tuner or any other aftermarket part I would guess he'll be on his own.

I plan on doing some serious mods to my M8, but not until I ride it several thousand miles to confirm that it's solid from the factory.  After that I am a big boy and will be responsible for my decision to go faster.  Remember the old saying: "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

[jbexeter]

1/ voiding a warranty with an aftermarket tuner is one thing.

2/ the OP clearly said in the subject of this post LOW OIL PRESSURE

3/ the OP clearly said in the body that he checked the oil pressure / flow himself and it was LOW.

If the fault when identified (smoking gun) is down to low oil pressure, then a warranty voided by an aftermarket tuner cannot and must not be applied, because the tuner can't change the oil pressure.

If the OP burns holes in his pistons and has an aftermarket tuner, then I can see HD or anyone else standing by the get out clause of a warranty.

====================================

Lots of people are *wise* to the warranty thing, I know of people here who buy crew cab 4x4 vehicles, get them back to the workshop with 12 miles on them, and gut everything, all the interior, dash, everything, and fit spares from scrapped vehicles, then they thrash them for 2.5 years and do 80k miles, pull it back in the workshop, refit everything, then baby it for the next six months, then sell it.

[prodrag1320]

with what ive heard,you couldn't give me on of these bikes

[rbabos]

with what ive heard,you couldn't give me on of these bikes

Teething pains. Too bad the customers take it up the ass in the mean time. You'd think with the noise at 500 miles a simple oil pressure check at the dealer would be in order, right? Instead they tell him to drive it into the ground, then wait for the MoCo tech guys to pick their noses and decide what to do next. Four weeks down time on a new bike, I'd go insane.
Ron

[Brrrap]

Seems strange with so many M8s running so flawlessly.  While the guy has voided his warranty, I wouldn't be surprised to see either Harley or the dealer good will repair it, if it was a factory defect that caused his problem.  If it was because of a tuning problem with the V&H tuner or any other aftermarket part I would guess he'll be on his own.

I plan on doing some serious mods to my M8, but not until I ride it several thousand miles to confirm that it's solid from the factory.  After that I am a big boy and will be responsible for my decision to go faster.  Remember the old saying: "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

I believe it goes: "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to spend?"

[Durwood]

Knock on wood, I must have gotten one that was built on Wednesday, with over 200 max power pulls, and a ton of steady state tuning on the dyno, she keeps on coming back for more, runs great and the engine is dead silent as far as mechanical noise.

At 115tq/111hp with only a cam and pipe makes it even more attractive, and IF it does happen to break, I will fix it.

OP, I hope it all works out for you to the good side.

[prodrag1320]

with what ive heard,you couldn't give me on of these bikes

Teething pains. Too bad the customers take it up the ass in the mean time. You'd think with the noise at 500 miles a simple oil pressure check at the dealer would be in order, right? Instead they tell him to drive it into the ground, then wait for the MoCo tech guys to pick their noses and decide what to do next. Four weeks down time on a new bike, I'd go insane.
Ron

EVO,TWIN CAM,now these.i would never buy a "first year" model

[psyshack]

New I put a set of V&H Eliminators on it a FP3 and a Harley Ventilator. Is Harley MAN going to yank my warranty?

If you were in Canada warranty would be void. Only Harleys tuner with approved map can be used or warranty is void. Thought this was part of the agreement they made with the epa last year when they changed what the tuners can and cant do.  Don't know how you can toss a FP3 and o2 eliminators on and figure you should be covered on the engine. Did you get a dyno after the install to prove the afr?  I know if I was Harley what I would tell you and you wouldn't like it.   Bob

I would bet in the USA the warranty is also voided. Since they took their own performance tuner off the market. All types of exclusions they spell out here.


https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/procedure/54638/BLAISE/379239/en_US

The O2 sensors are still working fine Sir. I'm not in Canada. I'm in Oklahoma, the head of the EPA is a Okie, Trump is in office. Harley done been to DC to kiss Trumps behind in spades.

[psyshack]

1/ voiding a warranty with an aftermarket tuner is one thing.

2/ the OP clearly said in the subject of this post LOW OIL PRESSURE

3/ the OP clearly said in the body that he checked the oil pressure / flow himself and it was LOW.

If the fault when identified (smoking gun) is down to low oil pressure, then a warranty voided by an aftermarket tuner cannot and must not be applied, because the tuner can't change the oil pressure.

If the OP burns holes in his pistons and has an aftermarket tuner, then I can see HD or anyone else standing by the get out clause of a warranty.

====================================

Lots of people are *wise* to the warranty thing, I know of people here who buy crew cab 4x4 vehicles, get them back to the workshop with 12 miles on them, and gut everything, all the interior, dash, everything, and fit spares from scrapped vehicles, then they thrash them for 2.5 years and do 80k miles, pull it back in the workshop, refit everything, then baby it for the next six months, then sell it.

The owner of the dealer confirmed the low oil psi himself. There is no question about the nature of the failure. And this is the second time the bike has been in the shop for sounding like a worn out twin cam. I took it in at 500 miles,,, then had enough and took it in at 1500 miles. As of this coming Sat. it will have been in the shop 4 weeks with no resolution.

[hd06]

 Am I missing something looking at the pix I don't see anything wrong 

[psyshack]

Am I missing something looking at the pix I don't see anything wrong 

I can't upload nice big pics. So if I may I will take each pic.

Remember the King as 1500 miles on it. Bought new years eve 2016. Paid cash and rode it home.

Pic 1) Top ring was already blowing by. Second ring was still catching combustion pressure. Massive blow by just mins. to a hour or so away before it started smoking and killing skeeters. That proof is in the piston skirt. You don't apply anti friction material to the skirts of the pistons to polish a perfect oval through that material. IE piston slap.

Pic 2) No hone marks left in the cylinders. It's not a special hone. Just a standard 60 degree cross hatch. In the pic you can see some hone in the very bottom of the cylinder. Otherwise the cylinder is glazed out,,, IE polished cylinder. But no scoring. The cylinders have been measured out. Out of round spec max is .003", max taper .003". It's in the shop manual. Cylinders were measured out as is. Not in TQ brackets. Front .006" rear .007". If measured in TQ brackets that could of made the measurements better or worse commonly .001" to .003". So if that was the case. And the Tq brackets made the measurements better the front cylinder would have been at max spec. And the rear would have been out of spec by .001" Taper was still in spec.

Pic 3) The exhaust valve shown is already burning. You can see the two lumps on the mating surface and in between the two lumps you can see vertical markings inline with the valve stem. The exhaust valve shows a classic rope pattern starting. This is caused by the valve rotating in it's normal operation and intake charge starting to combust as the valve is closing. Those are tiny pits forming in the valve mating surface. This is caused because the valves were not opening up all the way thus high exhaust and intake velocity's. Thus the rattling valve trane. And increased heat do to lack of oil pressure and flow. Also the black seen on the back of the exhaust valve is not sute. It's oil starting to leak by the valve guide seals.

Pic 4-5) The valve guide seals are as hard as a rock. They have seen far to much heat and have become like hard plastic. They were starting to leak. There are chips very fine chips in the edge of the seals that touch the valve stem. Also of note is the side load marks starting to develop. While two pattern marks in and of themselves are not bad it's a sign of things to come.

I took these pics after the dealer had my bike for two weeks. And as of yet they still have not opened the cam chest and inspected the cam and lifters. At this point I was told new jugs, pistons, lap the valves and put it back together. I looked at the service manager and told him no. I want a new bike.

At this point I have to shoot high and see what bullet drop gives me. Not acceptable! I paid cash money for this bike and it's not right. Then it was a meeting with the owner of the dealer. I told him I will take the Black King on the show room floor. I will pay for a street tuner, will even pay shop labor to put my mufflers, ventilator, passenger back rest, 12v Harley bag power port and tri pouch on the new bike. I get a store credit between the sale price of my blue and silver king with Harleys no security system on it for the plain jane black King on his floor. Plus he or Harley is going to pay TT&L on the new bike. He told me I needed to plead my case direct to Harley for a new bike. I lost it a tad. Made it very clear that was his job. I'm a manufactures rep in the pump, boiler, chiller and control industry. You never tell a customer to call the manufacture. I made it very clear if need be a lawyer will be speaking with Harley. Calm came over both of us. He then asked if a new motor would work. I told him if Harley already had a new motor on the way after two weeks and he could prove it that would be fine. I might think about a complete new power unit. I think that gave him a chest pain. He said a complete new unit. Yes Sir. I did not mince my words.

So now we are having a meeting with a Harley Man from the factory the morning of April 18th. At that point my bike will have been at the dealer over 4 weeks. I own a 2002 Harley F150 I will be driving to that meeting. Best thing new bike, worse thing I take my bike home in pieces and work hard to stay out of jail. Call lawyer as I drive away. But a parts repair will not happen. New motor with a extended warranty maybe. A new power unit and extended warranty no problem. Court no problem. I was going to put a S & S motor upgraded primary, clutch and such with a Baker in it anyway when S & S gets a M8 mill out after a couple hundred hit the track and road.

If they want to claim the FP3 ruined the motor prove it in Court you wont fare well. If the EPA wants to try and ding me. Lets just see how well that floats with the head of the EPA being our last AG here in Okiehoma.

I've been told the Harley man use to be the Harley regional service / repair / warranty rep for years. A good egg. Basically the service side equal the the regional sales rep. He is now suppose to be the national service director or rep or what ever his corporate title is. So a meeting we will go. Am I going to be the dude that gets a screwing or is this just a glaring example of how insane corporate America has become in multi-layer micro-management?  Remember I'm a manufactures rep with two states on the sale and service side. So fear I don't have. In my industry when I call the factory in good things happen and happen fast. So lets see how this goes. My Harley dealer is a multi-line dealer and they are just slack jawed at how this has been handled by the mother ship.

To be honest I knew I was going to be a beta tester. In a sick way I kind of enjoy such activity's. I knew my King was built in late August 2016 and I got a heck of a deal on it.

So lets see what happens!

[BVHOG]

First off, even as poor of a tuning (and I use that term loosely) device that  the V&H thing is it can hardly be blamed for poor piston to wall tolerances etc.  As for the Milwaukee 8 in general I have to say I am damn disappointed that after 7 years of development with what is said to be a top group of engineers this is the best they could come up with.   However this is the very thing that drives the aftermarket and keeps guys like myself elbow deep in work. 
Consider the great rear cam bearing setup in the first twin cams, lots of issues but a fix was found and many "fixes" "upgrades" whatever you want to call them are in the works for the Mil 8 all over the country as I type this and come hell or high water it will end up a decent power plant to modify into whatever we might want just like the models before.

[rigidthumper]

Am I missing something looking at the pix I don't see anything wrong 

I can't upload nice big pics. So if I may I will take each pic.

Remember the King as 1500 miles on it. Bought new years eve 2016. Paid cash and rode it home.

Pic 1) Top ring was already blowing by. Second ring was still catching combustion pressure. Massive blow by just mins. to a hour or so away before it started smoking and killing skeeters. That proof is in the piston skirt. You don't apply anti friction material to the skirts of the pistons to polish a perfect oval through that material. IE piston slap.

Just FYI, but that "perfect oval" is there for measuring purposes, not from piston slap. Fact of the matter is that piston doesn't look harmed/bad/warrantable IMO, and neither does that cylinder. Measure in torque plates, or it doesn't count. Poor ring seal can easily be fixed, as can bad valve stem seals-which should be replaced anytime you're this far down. I still think the issue is the wrong oil pump, but if they never take it out to check, you'll never know.  None of us have x-ray vision, magic wands, or accurate crystal balls.

[sfmichael]

First off, even as poor of a tuning (and I use that term loosely) device that  the V&H thing is it can hardly be blamed for poor piston to wall tolerances etc.  As for the Milwaukee 8 in general I have to say I am damn disappointed that after 7 years of development with what is said to be a top group of engineers this is the best they could come up with.   However this is the very thing that drives the aftermarket and keeps guys like myself elbow deep in work. 
Consider the great rear cam bearing setup in the first twin cams, lots of issues but a fix was found and many "fixes" "upgrades" whatever you want to call them are in the works for the Mil 8 all over the country as I type this and come hell or high water it will end up a decent power plant to modify into whatever we might want just like the models before.

this has been my position since day one...I'll buy a 2019 (good Lord willing)   

[psyshack]

First off, even as poor of a tuning (and I use that term loosely) device that  the V&H thing is it can hardly be blamed for poor piston to wall tolerances etc.  As for the Milwaukee 8 in general I have to say I am damn disappointed that after 7 years of development with what is said to be a top group of engineers this is the best they could come up with.   However this is the very thing that drives the aftermarket and keeps guys like myself elbow deep in work. 
Consider the great rear cam bearing setup in the first twin cams, lots of issues but a fix was found and many "fixes" "upgrades" whatever you want to call them are in the works for the Mil 8 all over the country as I type this and come hell or high water it will end up a decent power plant to modify into whatever we might want just like the models before.

BVHOG

The last Harleys I owned were the last of the AMF junk. Bought brand new,,, what crap in 1979. The M8 caught my eye. Hell buddys of mine went right out and paid msrp, plus, plus and I got to ride those bikes. I was amazed with the M8! Harley finally got to the 1950's concerning mechanical tech. They caught up to the GM 283 with four valves per cylinder. OMG!!!!

Sorry but I was set to buy a Yamaha FJR1300ES. At 56 years of age and a wife that loves to ride I told her we need to slow down. I'm a big guy. And she is a peti beauty at 60. But I had just sold my Hemi Cars and my bought new 84 Kenny Roberts RZ 350 from WestArk Yamaha in Ft. Smith Ar. And it's to only one left from there sales run with nine engines and my wicked fast RZ500 I imported from France in 1985 with nine engines. From stock to TZ builds. Reality set in. I've been on two wheels since I was 6 years old. I still own my 50 Mini Trail bought new early release in Tulsa in 1967. Stupid little hardtail will still do 35 mph with my fat ass on it.

No matter what happens,,, I am not dumping my M8 King. But I'm a nats ass away of going ahead with a FJR purchase. If that makes me a skank with HD fans so be it. I'm a motorcyclist, not a life style biker. I want to ride. $45 Tee Shirts and a life style? Mean nothing to me. Fanboyism is like crushing your eyes with the ass end of a shot glass IMHO!

[psyshack]

Am I missing something looking at the pix I don't see anything wrong 

I can't upload nice big pics. So if I may I will take each pic.

Remember the King as 1500 miles on it. Bought new years eve 2016. Paid cash and rode it home.

Pic 1) Top ring was already blowing by. Second ring was still catching combustion pressure. Massive blow by just mins. to a hour or so away before it started smoking and killing skeeters. That proof is in the piston skirt. You don't apply anti friction material to the skirts of the pistons to polish a perfect oval through that material. IE piston slap.

Just FYI, but that "perfect oval" is there for measuring purposes, not from piston slap. Fact of the matter is that piston doesn't look harmed/bad/warrantable IMO, and neither does that cylinder. Measure in torque plates, or it doesn't count. Poor ring seal can easily be fixed, as can bad valve stem seals-which should be replaced anytime you're this far down. I still think the issue is the wrong oil pump, but if they never take it out to check, you'll never know.  None of us have x-ray vision, magic wands, or accurate crystal balls.

That perfect oval was not man made. TQ Plates would have given us a MAX of .004 +/-. Either way its not good. I used a working example or .001-.003 because most folks freak if you mix odd and even numbers on spec measure in a idiot debate concerning tq brackets. If VW, TATA, Kohler, Briggs, Wright or Pratt or any number of manufactures put all there base measure into TQ Brakects as the bottom line they would be complete idiots. All agree TQ Brackets are a must for finial setup / bore for air cooled engines. Fact remains Harley does no give a **** and puts all the eggs in a Easter basket of thin walled cylinder's. IE we don't do massive bores or even corrective bores on rebuilds. That went away with shovels or the base mark iron heads. We buy new jugs. I come from a tool & die, machine tool back ground. That perfect oval is not dealer done or jigged up. Thats piston slap as admitted by the dealer. When you put a loop on it. It's very clear. If that was man made even jigged up there would be no feathering. The cylinders are oval along the wrist pin,,, period. You TQ Bracket for basic bench has been BS since the radial aircraft engine days that out dates you or I. Why out of all the air cooled engine manufactures do the Harley fan boys say but but tq brackets or jigs? Nobody in basic measurement even debates the subject. But if it's a Harley jug,,, OMFG!

So,,, lets look at other factors concerning the vaulted plate setup shall we? The head surface max is .003", base max is .006". With the base dim. float on a alum. case surface. So lets just say the jug base and top service are perfect. That does not in anyway account for flex in the base mount to case interface. Which is what the damn tq brackets or jigs are suppose to account to?... Naw the brackets give you a true machine reference. Not a real world number concerning head to base interface with tq. While it is very important. It can not be replicated in a running engine. Care to take a look at the pressure wave in a tq'ed thin walled cylinder? Mathematically the combustion pressure wave should control the piston slap.

Even Lyco and Conti don't put as much importance to air cooled jug base measurements as Harley fans do. There jugs are serviceable.... Harleys modern jugs are basically not serviceable. Buy new jugs or big bore and thinner cylinder walls.

Really Dude?