houston we have a problem oh i mean harley

[1FSTRK]

According to SKF the plastic cage they use in their cylindrical roller bearing is rated for 250 F max or 300 F max

"Polyamide 66 (PA66), with or without glass fibre reinforcement, is characterized by a favourable combination of strength and elasticity. Due to its excellent sliding properties on lubricated steel surfaces and the superior finish of the contact surfaces, PA66 cages reduce friction, frictional heat and wear. PA66 can be used at operating temperatures up to 120 °C (250 °F). However, some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on PA66 cages. For information about the suitability of cages, refer to Cages and Cage materials. "

"Glass or carbon fibre reinforced polyetheretherketone (PEEK) is popular for demanding applications where there are either high speeds or high temperatures or a need for chemical resistance. The maximum temperature for high-speed use is limited to 150 °C (300 °F) as this is the softening temperature of the polymer. The material does not show signs of ageing by temperature or oil additives up to 200 °C (390 °F). "

No argument there. Standard issue in the Compensaver kits for thrust washer. That stuff is awesome. It was researched, heavily tested and performed just like the company stated. Too bad someone else didn't take the time to test these bearings.
Ron

Testing? Looks like all they needed to do was read the data sheet before ordering.

[rbabos]

According to SKF the plastic cage they use in their cylindrical roller bearing is rated for 250 F max or 300 F max

"Polyamide 66 (PA66), with or without glass fibre reinforcement, is characterized by a favourable combination of strength and elasticity. Due to its excellent sliding properties on lubricated steel surfaces and the superior finish of the contact surfaces, PA66 cages reduce friction, frictional heat and wear. PA66 can be used at operating temperatures up to 120 °C (250 °F). However, some synthetic oils and greases with a synthetic oil base and lubricants containing EP additives, when used at high temperatures, can have a detrimental effect on PA66 cages. For information about the suitability of cages, refer to Cages and Cage materials. "

"Glass or carbon fibre reinforced polyetheretherketone (PEEK) is popular for demanding applications where there are either high speeds or high temperatures or a need for chemical resistance. The maximum temperature for high-speed use is limited to 150 °C (300 °F) as this is the softening temperature of the polymer. The material does not show signs of ageing by temperature or oil additives up to 200 °C (390 °F). "

No argument there. Standard issue in the Compensaver kits for thrust washer. That stuff is awesome. It was researched, heavily tested and performed just like the company stated. Too bad someone else didn't take the time to test these bearings.
Ron

Testing? Looks like all they needed to do was read the data sheet before ordering.

That would be too easy.
Ron

[hogpipes1]

What the hell after a couple rd. test on M-8's ,i had a sweet spot for the  heavy beast. Figured they would get the rocker arm side play,  & the pri. sucking the oil out of the trans figured out. But i'll be damn if i can enjoy a long  ass haul  down the rd to AZ,  listening to   Seger's against the wind , with out thinking about a F-EN bearing cage melting.

I hope the hell they never cheapen up a bottle of Jack. I just want to enjoy what's left in my life w/o paying for the stupid BS .

[BVHOG]

Ron, maybe you can develop a tray that directs oil to that bearing so then the moco can copy it and build it into the next castings?

[rbabos]

Ron, maybe you can develop a tray that directs oil to that bearing so then the moco can copy it and build it into the next castings?

I think I'd sooner get kicked in the nuts then go through that again. They are on their own this time. It will be interesting to see if any changes whatever that is, have made it into the 18 production units though and how the current 17s will be looked after. Could even have been a mid year bearing revision we don't know about at this point. Time will tell.
Ron

[Bike31]

Could someone point out the bearing here? https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/79422

Gary

[tmwmoose]

Crank case and filter,   index # 20,  part # 35200021

[FXDBI]

https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/79422#CRANKCASE_107

Part number 20     Bob

[Bike31]

Thanks for the P/N. Just curious. So was it the one that's blind holed in the right crankcase half that went bad? If so I wonder about the condition of the other in the left?

[rbabos]

Thanks for the P/N. Just curious. So was it the one that's blind holed in the right crankcase half that went bad? If so I wonder about the condition of the other in the left?

Could be wrong but based on where it sits both bores could be blind.
Ron

[Bike31]

Yes I see what you're saying...the balancer is contained in the crankcase and driven by the left crank gearing. Contained as noted here: http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=93218.0

Well then...maybe two bearings to eventually fail? Which one is shown in the OP's pics?

I wonder if one bearing gets more heat than the other from the scissor gear's friction on the balancer or ?

[rbabos]

Yes I see what you're saying...the balancer is contained in the crankcase and driven by the left crank gearing. Contained as noted here: http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=93218.0

Well then...maybe two bearings to eventually fail? Which one is shown in the OP's pics?

I wonder if one bearing gets more heat than the other from the scissor gear's friction on the balancer or ?

The way I see it , in theory the drive side should fail first if lack of oil is the issue. It, again in theory with less cooling oil flowing into it.  It could also have more heat in the bearing as a result of this.  That spinning gear will act like a slinger preventing some oil from getting to the bearing. I'd also like to know which bearing in the pic failed. It would narrow it down somewhat more as to whether it's oil or heat related or possibly both in case of the sprocket side. Mostly speculation at this point.
Ron

[FSG]

Could be wrong but based on where it sits both bores could be blind.

I'm surprised there's no dribble oil feed to the blind void, similar to the IPB.

Looking at the right side some preplanning (!) could have had a pressure feed to the balancer

[koko3052]

GEE....now all that we need is a few "riders" develop an oil diversion tray, like for the compensater issues, so that their engineers can come up with a fix!

[rbabos]

GEE....now all that we need is a few "riders" develop an oil diversion tray, like for the compensater issues, so that their engineers can come up with a fix!

I'm out. FSG has the right idea. Low pressure feed the right side, drilled balancer shaft feeding oil to the left side. As is stands right now, I'm not impressed.
Ron

[Bike31]

There's a bearing retaining fastener screwed into the case on both sides. Maybe that could be redesigned and used to feed some oil to the bearing (like hollow w/exit hole or ?). Hard to believe they'd expect just oil mist and splash to get there and lube/cool the bearing. The Stage kit upgrades must create stress in that location.

[jbexeter]

NR = 1,05 x 10–4 M n

where
NR    =   power loss [W]
M    =   total frictional moment of the bearing [Nmm]
n    =   rotational speed [r/min]

The cooling factor Ws is defined as the heat being removed from the bearing per degree of temperature difference between the bearing and ambient. If the value of Ws is known, a rough estimate of the temperature increase in the bearing can be obtained using

ΔT = NR/Ws

where
ΔT    =   temperature increase [°C]
NR    =   power loss [W]
Ws    =   cooling factor [W/°C]

[rbabos]

NR = 1,05 x 10–4 M n

where
NR    =   power loss [W]
M    =   total frictional moment of the bearing [Nmm]
n    =   rotational speed [r/min]

The cooling factor Ws is defined as the heat being removed from the bearing per degree of temperature difference between the bearing and ambient. If the value of Ws is known, a rough estimate of the temperature increase in the bearing can be obtained using

ΔT = NR/Ws

where
ΔT    =   temperature increase [°C]
NR    =   power loss [W]
Ws    =   cooling factor [W/°C]

Throw enough oil at the rollers then the temp can be read of the oil temp gauge for all the difference will be. Sure contact surface zone will be a hair higher but it won't get out of control and build temps high enough to be race unfriendly. If in fact that's what's going on but I find it difficult to see how these bearings in the blind hole current design and the gear acting as a slinger can get enough oil to cool.
Ron

[jbexeter]

Throw enough oil at the rollers then the temp can be read of the oil temp gauge for all the difference will be. Sure contact surface zone will be a hair higher but it won't get out of control and build temps high enough to be race unfriendly. If in fact that's what's going on but I find it difficult to see how these bearings in the blind hole current design and the gear acting as a slinger can get enough oil to cool.
Ron

Only times we ever used it in anger (in collab with skf) was to calculate oil flow to bearing required to carry away heat (thermal transport being the always overlooked property of lube oil) generated in the bearing, and it turned out the math to calculate heat generated in the bearing was horribly complex, and types of loads made a massive difference, the one thing I do remember clearly about that time was harmonics in the bearing load had a surprisingly large influence on heat generated in the bearing for any given load and rpm, and in our case the solution was simple but complex, a different bearing with a different number of rollers to reduce the effect of resonance between the load and the bearing.... the initial design had a gear (straight cut not hypoid) with a number of teeth N1 and the initial bearing had a umber of rollers N2 and N1/N2 was an integer.... very much an "aaahhhh..." moment when the skf techs explained all this...

(BTW this was around 1988 and each bearing was a few thousand bucks, I still have some of the balls from the ball bearings from further down the spindle and they are 2.5" diameter each)

[HD/Wrench]

You would think that HD would wise up with cheap bearings but we still see trans bearing failures after 10 years , trap door bearing failures again 10 years .. but the cost of the complete replacement unit is only 799  HA HA throw away parts .

[rbabos]

You would think that HD would wise up with cheap bearings but we still see trans bearing failures after 10 years , trap door bearing failures again 10 years .. but the cost of the complete replacement unit is only 799  HA HA throw away parts .

I think you are asking for too much. I'm still waiting for a fkg master cyl gasket that don't seep beyond 6 months using all known torques and methods of install. Fluid migrates up past the screw area to the top of the gasket eventually, then you see moisture collecting on the top lip side of the gasket as the DOT4 is exposed to humid conditions. Total garbage for how many years now? Yup, even got the revised lid and gasket . It was worse then the previous one.
Ron

[cmashark]

You would think that HD would wise up with cheap bearings but we still see trans bearing failures after 10 years , trap door bearing failures again 10 years .. but the cost of the complete replacement unit is only 799  HA HA throw away parts .

I think you are asking for too much. I'm still waiting for a fkg master cyl gasket that don't seep beyond 6 months using all known torques and methods of install. Fluid migrates up past the screw area to the top of the gasket eventually, then you see moisture collecting on the top lip side of the gasket as the DOT4 is exposed to humid conditions. Total garbage for how many years now? Yup, even got the revised lid and gasket . It was worse then the previous one.
Ron

Must be a Vrod. I've owned 3 of them and for some reason, it was only my Vrods that had this issue.

[happyman]

How many are known to have had this happen?

how many know and then how many were repaired by the owner.  the motor  co. never has any data on that.
 

[Pete_Vit]

How many are known to have had this happen?

how many know and then how many were repaired by the owner.  the motor  co. never has any data on that.

I know if at least one Indy that's trying to fix the issue for one of his clients , and he's not telling the MoCo

[rbabos]

You would think that HD would wise up with cheap bearings but we still see trans bearing failures after 10 years , trap door bearing failures again 10 years .. but the cost of the complete replacement unit is only 799  HA HA throw away parts .

I think you are asking for too much. I'm still waiting for a fkg master cyl gasket that don't seep beyond 6 months using all known torques and methods of install. Fluid migrates up past the screw area to the top of the gasket eventually, then you see moisture collecting on the top lip side of the gasket as the DOT4 is exposed to humid conditions. Total garbage for how many years now? Yup, even got the revised lid and gasket . It was worse then the previous one.
Ron

Must be a Vrod. I've owned 3 of them and for some reason, it was only my Vrods that had this issue.

Nope. Shared masters with some other HD brands. I have a 13 DX with the upgrade cover and gasket on the brake master. Worse then it's previous version.  They all will leak or seep eventually, starting with slow fluid migration around the screw hole area at the seal. Fluid migrates to the top of the gasket then collects moisture around the vent holes, which starts collecting on the top edge of the gasket face at the cap. Looked a fairly new tri glide the other day . Same "Potty mouth". Having one of my gaskets actually expand slightly, I'm not totally sure the gasket is completely Dot4 compatible for long term exposure.
Ron