've calibration

[Paul in Alaska]

So how are he's initially generated? I had a bad stumble from 2000 to 3000. Tried everything cause there was this ditch in the table. I finally increased ve in the ditch region on both front and rear...guess what...stumble going away.. my question remains....how are the VE tables generated in the first place? Why not manually set all to 100 percent and vtune to calibrate?

[Coyote]

The base maps are tunes done for a specific build.  Since your bike is different you have a starting place but still need to customize the map to your specific bike.  Setting all the VEs to 100 would be far worse than starting with a base map for a build similar to what you have.

Low RPM areas can be some of the toughest to get mapped (on the street) using auto tunes alone.  Looking at the data log will often show clearly that an area is rich or lean even when the auto tune has not collected enough good data to make the call.  Also, if you are too far out, the auto tunes can have an issue.

[Paul in Alaska]

No map for mine so kinda starting from scratch

[Paul in Alaska]

120 st with 09 headpipe...widebands...

[Paul in Alaska]

And stock narrow bands...

[Paul in Alaska]

What really determines if you raise or lower the ve value for a given cell or cells?

[Coyote]

What really determines if you raise or lower the ve value for a given cell or cells?

If it's lean, you raise the VE, rich, lower it..

[Coyote]

No map for mine so kinda starting from scratch

TTS doesn't have a 120 map?

[KiwiRob]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

[wolf_59]

What really determines if you raise or lower the ve value for a given cell or cells?

Feedback from the O2 sensor voltage tells the ecm determines if it is running rich or lean, but if you are too far off on the VE's rich or lean it will not pick up on it with the NB sensors

[harpwrench]

I'd set all the afr/lambda to an open loop value, such as 13.2/.899, use the widebands to get it roughed in. Then select the block you want closed loop and work on that with the narrow bands. Pipes can do weird stuff and part of the art is figuring out when that's happening. If you're digging a hole at say 60-70 kpa, then fully trusting v-tune/egr, it can dig a deeper ditch than it should. The object is to make it run nicely, with good gas mileage, and it's not necessarily "right" to get rid of the ditch. Mine has one, I set the lambda at 70 kpa to .972 and went by feel a little at a time raising VE to get rid of a flat spot, also using egr to make the kpa below that feel right. Very small changes can make a big difference in mpg as well as heat on your legs, and that's info you can use in addition to what the data is showing. Caveat I'm not a pro tuner just done a lot of street tuning as well as having dyno tunes, and have had good luck making my bikes run nicely.

[Paul in Alaska]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

Do not see a cal for a 120. did a search using the TTS search and no luck.

[Paul in Alaska]

After several more good vtune sessions, the ditch is starting to form again as well as the stumble returning, 2000 to 3000 rpm, 40 to 100 map. This is my problem area. Bikes run quite nice otherwise...above 3000 rpm that is....
I am using an 09 headpipe. I added small bungs for the narrow bands. wonder if the narrowbands are cross talking? i am quite sure i put them in a position to prevent this... i used this pipe when it was a stock CVO 110 motor and it seemed to work fine...no stumble...

[Paul in Alaska]

What really determines if you raise or lower the ve value for a given cell or cells?

If it's lean, you raise the VE, rich, lower it..

Thanks...

[Paul in Alaska]

I'd set all the afr/lambda to an open loop value, such as 13.2/.899, use the widebands to get it roughed in. Then select the block you want closed loop and work on that with the narrow bands. Pipes can do weird stuff and part of the art is figuring out when that's happening. If you're digging a hole at say 60-70 kpa, then fully trusting v-tune/egr, it can dig a deeper ditch than it should. The object is to make it run nicely, with good gas mileage, and it's not necessarily "right" to get rid of the ditch. Mine has one, I set the lambda at 70 kpa to .972 and went by feel a little at a time raising VE to get rid of a flat spot, also using egr to make the kpa below that feel right. Very small changes can make a big difference in mpg as well as heat on your legs, and that's info you can use in addition to what the data is showing. Caveat I'm not a pro tuner just done a lot of street tuning as well as having dyno tunes, and have had good luck making my bikes run nicely.

Thanks

[KiwiRob]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

Do not see a cal for a 120. did a search using the TTS search and no luck.

The cals I mentioned are listed in the TTS cal listings (PDF) file for 1856cc (113) engines. They can be used for 1962cc (120) also. The cal listing file is downloaded with the TTS updates. - Rob

[harpwrench]

120 st with 09 headpipe...widebands...

What kind of wide band set up are you using

[Paul in Alaska]

Innovate motorsports.

[Paul in Alaska]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

Do not see a cal for a 120. did a search using the TTS search and no luck.

The cals I mentioned are listed in the TTS cal listings (PDF) file for 1856cc (113) engines. They can be used for 1962cc (120) also. The cal listing file is downloaded with the TTS updates. - Rob

Got it....maybe i will switch calibrations and start over.

[KiwiRob]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

Do not see a cal for a 120. did a search using the TTS search and no luck.

The cals I mentioned are listed in the TTS cal listings (PDF) file for 1856cc (113) engines. They can be used for 1962cc (120) also. The cal listing file is downloaded with the TTS updates. - Rob

Got it....maybe i will switch calibrations and start over.

You will more than likely need to increase the engine displacement in the tuning constants another 20%, say 140 to 145cid. At least that's what I needed for the 176 cal that I used to stay under the 127 VE ceiling in some of the cells. VTune 3 will let you know. - Rob

[Paul in Alaska]

That is a big increase...

[KiwiRob]

That is a big increase...

Yeah I know, but that's what my engine combo needed. Your tuning might not need that much, if at all.  VTune 3 will let you know what it needs. The 120 is a bear to VTune it seems. - Rob

[Paul in Alaska]

in my case vtune always brings the VE between 2 and 3000 rpm down to the point of creating that dreaded stumble (lean) between 40 and 100 KPA. i raised the ve and made it smooth but vtune has it purple for change. I guess it is just a matter of raising the ve in that area till the stumble goes away. I see raising the ve in that area also reduces spark retard as well. Tried a 113 map set the cubes to 136 and it ran so rich....reduced to 126 and was still rich. the calibration i have spent all the time on and have the bike running decent is an EAA calibration. IVO set at 3.
I think i am starting to get a handle on this. V tune does well but is not the end all....
I have the green interface....
Datamaster 2 and Vtune 3.

[wolf_59]

Paul even vtuning with the wide bands with the map set for open loop it still digging a hole and running lean?

[KE5RBD]

After several more good vtune sessions, the ditch is starting to form again as well as the stumble returning, 2000 to 3000 rpm, 40 to 100 map. This is my problem area. Bikes run quite nice otherwise...above 3000 rpm that is....
I am using an 09 headpipe. I added small bungs for the narrow bands. wonder if the narrowbands are cross talking? i am quite sure i put them in a position to prevent this... i used this pipe when it was a stock CVO 110 motor and it seemed to work fine...no stumble...

Curious as how you are running wide bands and narrow band O2's at same time.  Never saw that done.

[rigidthumper]

The green VCI allows for factory narrow bands to be read, and up to 4 analog channels, at the same time, so wide bands, and EGT, or fuel pressure, or custom millivolts, or anything 0-8VDC, if you have custom gauges-very powerful data gathering tool when tuning.

[KE5RBD]

The green VCI allows for factory narrow bands to be read, and up to 4 analog channels, at the same time, so wide bands, and EGT, or fuel pressure, or custom millivolts, or anything 0-8VDC, if you have custom gauges-very powerful data gathering tool when tuning.

Thanks for the explanation.  Haven't been following too closely lately.  Will check the Green VCI out.

[Paul in Alaska]

Paul even vtuning with the wide bands with the map set for open loop it still digging a hole and running lean?

I have the area in question set at.974 lambda. Vtune adjusts and when it turn the cells white it stumbles bad. when i increase ve in that area, stumble goes away. After that i run vtune again and the cells are all purple in that area. Also i cannot seem to smooth out idle. Makes the compensator chatter and bang. before it gets warm idle is good. when it hits temparature i have a very choppy idle.

[wolf_59]

I have the area in question set at.974 lambda. Vtune adjusts and when it turn the cells white it stumbles bad. when i increase ve in that area, stumble goes away. After that i run vtune again and the cells are all purple in that area. Also i cannot seem to smooth out idle. Makes the compensator chatter and bang. before it gets warm idle is good. when it hits temparature i have a very choppy idle.

.974-1.008 is closed loop, I would do as mentioned previously and set the entire AFR/Lambada map to 13.5 afr/.921 lambada and tune with the wide bands to set VE tables for front and rear, then set AFR/Lambada values where they need to be without using closed loop. 
The 2009 header doesn't have a cat so the NB sensor placement could be the problem

[Paul in Alaska]

I have the area in question set at.974 lambda. Vtune adjusts and when it turn the cells white it stumbles bad. when i increase ve in that area, stumble goes away. After that i run vtune again and the cells are all purple in that area. Also i cannot seem to smooth out idle. Makes the compensator chatter and bang. before it gets warm idle is good. when it hits temparature i have a very choppy idle.

.974-1.008 is closed loop, I would do as mentioned previously and set the entire AFR/Lambada map to 13.5 afr/.921 lambada and tune with the wide bands to set VE tables for front and rear, then set AFR/Lambada values where they need to be without using closed loop. 
The 2009 header doesn't have a cat so the NB sensor placement could be the problem

i recognize the fact i may have a cross talk or some other kind of narrow band issue.
Thanks
Paul

[Paul in Alaska]

TTS lists the calibrations with F engine identifier code for 113 & 120 engines. In my case with an '07 Soft Tail I have three cals (FNL, FNM, FPJ176 ).
All the other levels seem to have at least a couple of cals for 113/120 engines. - Rob

Do not see a cal for a 120. did a search using the TTS search and no luck.

The cals I mentioned are listed in the TTS cal listings (PDF) file for 1856cc (113) engines. They can be used for 1962cc (120) also. The cal listing file is downloaded with the TTS updates. - Rob

Got it....maybe i will switch calibrations and start over.

So i switch cal and roughed in at .972. Bike runs better... Switching to a 2 into 1 next week or so. Think my stumble could be associated with the pipe...

[Paul in Alaska]

In the scheme of things....When you have your VE tables calibrated.....would it be best to correct a stumble by increasing VE in the effected area or increase AE which effects the whole map.? AE is the accelerator pump....
Thanks

[rigidthumper]

If the stumble is steady state, adjust timing, once the VEs are stabil ( white). If the stumble is transitional, adjust the AE first, then timing. ( Again, assuming you have the VE's white)

[Paul in Alaska]

If the stumble is steady state, adjust timing, once the VEs are stabil ( white). If the stumble is transitional, adjust the AE first, then timing. ( Again, assuming you have the VE's white)

VE is white, stumble between 2000-3000rpm 60kpa to 100kpa.
Paul

[rigidthumper]

 Open the 8-12-17 morning file in datamaster. Click on setup, click on analog channels, use the drop down menu to select Innovate Motorsports (lambda), use the sensor connection drop down menu to select front cylinder. Click on CH2, select innovate motorsports (lambda), select rear cylinder for sensor connection. click Save This Setup. Click on Apply Setup. It says "do you wish to apply these changes? Click Yes. Now, open VT3- select advanced mode. Select your 120st second map-009.MT9 file. Use the   8-12-17 morning file you just saved as your datamaster file.  Click Next. It should show you duty cycle. Click Next.  Spark assist mode ON, Fuel processing mode to Closed-loop Stock 02 and Open-loop Analog 02. Next. You should see EGR adjustment recommended- select Apply changes, then Next. This should be on your screen. [smg id=3048] All that white area, with numbers,shows where you've been able to gather enough good data to adjust VEs, and they are within 5%.  All the yellow areas, are areas where you need more valid data to get a good adjustment. Red or blue areas are good data, but required >5% adjustment, need to be re hit to try to get them white. The white areas without numbers are areas where you don't have enough good data to even attempt a guess- those areas need focused, as they line up with the stumble.  Using the drop down menu, select measured AFR/Lambda. Should look like this [smg id=3055]  This table shows what the widebands reported. You are asking for .890 @ 90 & 100 KPA, but measuring .757 (AE influenced) to 1.032. I think more data, and more VT3 runs are required to get this closer to what you need. I'd start by removing 10 VE points in the upper left and upper right areas, F&R, & reducing the AE by 10%, save as -010, and flash it in. Put flight recorder on, and go ride. Hit as many areas as you can, and run that data through VT3 just like above, and let us know what you got.

[harpwrench]

It might help to use the throttle progressivity table as a throttle stop, saving multiple data runs with cals maxed out at 25%, 35% etc. in different gears, then run the batch of files through vtune. To much AE can also cause a stumble FYI.