HarleyTechTalk

Bob,

Your post explains why it seems difficult to get hard facts when it comes to timing.
Sometimes it's frustrating for us guys that don't have access to a dyno or knowledgable tuner. We really are in the dark about this and the trial and error of playing with timing doing street runs is down right frustrating, and very time consuming.
I'll tell ya what, my hat is off to the guys that really know this stuff 

Quote from: Sonny S. on May 07, 2009, 12:39:02 PM
Bob,

Your post explains why it seems difficult to get hard facts when it comes to timing.
Sometimes it's frustrating for us guys that don't have access to a dyno or knowledgable tuner. We really are in the dark about this and the trial and error of playing with timing doing street runs is down right frustrating, and very time consuming.
I'll tell ya what, my hat is off to the guys that really know this stuff 

I'll second all of this   

It was my hope we would gain some actual real experiences from this post.

Many of us will never have expensive exotic equipment, so the best we can ever have is shared knowledge as a compromise.  I realize it’s not scientific but it’s the best we can hope for.

It would be great if we could get more maps & build details posted & just sharing of experiences in general with any timing trials...

Not Scientific again but it's better then nuttin!

TIA,
05

right on 

Quote from: FLTRI on May 07, 2009, 12:26:18 PM

Fortunately we have a plethora of timing maps available to try to see which "feel" the best.

Bob

It sure would be NICE if "WE" could share some of these...

Quote from: whittlebeast on November 22, 2008, 08:11:10 PM
TXCHOP

I have not actually tested this but it appears that the bottom right corner of the timing map controls the cranking timing.  See the blue area in the graphs above.  I can tell you that the data logs are showing 0 degrees timing durring cranking on my Sporty.  I could test this one if needed.

My Sporty cranks at 450 RPM at 95 KPA on a 99.8 KPA day.  I wonder if the high altitude bikes crank with more timing?

AW

If I use the TTS I dont have to mess with the timing map as you have a table for ign timing under cranking. However if it is a SERT style map then yes I have to check my map sensor under data log and take that into acount. But with higher elevation you loose cylinder pressure so it does not work against you as bad at lower elevation= higher cranking pressures.  Your KPA tells me you are at or very near sea level.

Cranking timing and the areas of the DTT map is my next hurdle...anyone here got any feedback?

Just getting ready to start gathering some info with the DTT log file software 

Find where the bike is running for map load when cranking and adjust timing there

OK, so with the DTT race version you can only adjust timing down to 16in-hg?   maybe I should have bought the ex version?  I wonder WTF the timing looks like at 10-16 IN-HG?   does it change in this area when changing the initial and advance slope?  how would you know how any changes are affecting this area of timing?



my head hurts... think I'll grab another beer...

Have one for me     

You can send your Race version to DTT and have it flashed to " EX " version for $25. I'm going to send 2 in myself...hmm, I need to do that..... tomorrow   

sippin on beer #2 

so the race version offers less adjustability than the street legal version?  that makes perfect sense

just finished checking out the 4 different SE timing curves...hmmm... had me wondering if trying to compare the SE curve to a TC88a curve is apples to oranges?


here is the SE manifold vacuum ranges:             compared with DTT:

IDLE                                                            IDLE  16In-Hg
12 In-hg                                                      18 In-Hg
10  "                                                           20   "
8   "                                                            22   "
6"  "                                                            24   "
4   "                                                            26   "
2   "                                                            28   "
WOT                                                           WOT  30 In-Hg


Why are the vacuum manifold figures backasswards for the DTT?

anyone smarter than me have any thoughts 




think I will send my DTT in for the ex reflash... say, around Dec or Jan  
                                                                                                                     

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 13, 2009, 05:22:44 PM
Find where the bike is running for map load when cranking and adjust timing there

Yepper that's the plan

Welcome to our nightmare George    LOL!

Flashed to "EX"?  Does this apply to the DTT TC-88?  I'm running a 3 adv. & 2 slope.  Just want to add some timing at idle.  Thanks, Larry

Quote from: larluvssandra on May 14, 2009, 06:24:58 AM
Flashed to "EX"?  Does this apply to the DTT TC-88?  I'm running a 3 adv. & 2 slope.  Just want to add some timing at idle.  Thanks, Larry

yes, you can change the TC88 ( now called race ) to the EX... street.

Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

Quote from: larluvssandra on May 14, 2009, 10:51:45 AM
Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

I really don't know. I guess that depends if you are having issues in areas that are not ajustable with your current ignition.
I'm doing it because $25 sure beats the heck outta buying a new module, and this way I have the " option " to adjust timing in the 10-14 in-hg ranges.

Quote from: Sonny S. on May 14, 2009, 12:09:16 PM

Quote from: larluvssandra on May 14, 2009, 10:51:45 AM
Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

I really don't know. I guess that depends if you are having issues in areas that are not ajustable with your current ignition.
I'm doing it because $25 sure beats the heck outta buying a new module, and this way I have the " option " to adjust timing in the 10-14 in-hg ranges.

Being that Chris has desided he can treat his customers like "Potty mouth", I'm seriously considering the SE race tuner for mine. I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a JACKOFF that would be you Chris!

 >>>I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a <<<

Well buddy, you better sell that Harley then       

Quote from: Sonny S. on May 15, 2009, 10:29:24 AM
>>>I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a <<<

Well buddy, you better sell that Harley then       

Ain't that the truth!

But seriously, stay away from the SE Race tuner and do yourself a favor and go with the TTS Mastertune. You'll be glad you did.

Quote from: Krusty on May 15, 2009, 02:52:00 PM
But seriously, stay away from the SE Race tuner and do yourself a favor and go with the TTS Mastertune. You'll be glad you did.

Krusty thanks but mine is carbed, the DTT & Crane modules are virtually the same units for us with carbs to adjust our timing...the SE race tuner is another ignition module for adjusting timing maps on a carbed bike.

Are there any other modules out there for us dinosaurs running a carbed 2005 HD

Heck 05, now that you got the DTT figured out, might as well roll with it...it's paid for.
You could try the S&S IST. Even has knock detection and timing retard.

I don't like the way things are done at DTT either...but..... The MOCO pulls the same chit....and here we are.
I could never own a Honda though.... I'd be bored not working on something....lol 

I am going to try to condense my recent DTT tuning experiences in this thread, in hopes that it may be of value to someone in the future.

Just completed a winter build on my 04 FXD:

Dewey's street heads 80cc chambers
95" SE flat tops .005 O/S with valve reliefs opened up
Andrews 37N conversion cams
stock carb rejetted
Cycle Shack slip ons

The bike runs great, but with the warmer weather 80-90 degrees I started getting a pretty persistent pinging in only one area.   My problem area was 2500-3000rpm in 4th and 5th gear and light throttle.  Everywhere else was fine.  Jetting was 46 slow, N65C(Sportster needle) and 195 main.  Tried 45, 46 and 48 slow jets, and 195 and 200 main jets but could not get rid of the ping.  I tried the NOKK needle and improved slightly but the pinging was still there.

I bought the DTT TC88A and tried just about every combination of initial and advance slope possible.  No matter how I adjusted the dials, I could not completely eliminate the pinging.  Not to mention the bike was a complete dog with all the timing pulled out.

I decided to order the cable and software and see if I could figure out what was going on.  By this time I was really beginning to get frustrated.  I was considering different cams (Woods 6, Andrews 44 etc.)  at 9.85:1 corrected the 37 cams should work fine with proper tuning?

This thread, as well as another caught my eye:  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.0

Sonny S. and 05FLHTC were a lot of help in the above thread 

The instructions for the DTT are misleading to say the least.  The instructions say "Note that 16In-Hg corresponds to a high vacuum deceleration or idle condition".   This is simply not true.  05FLHTC clued me in to this and I verified it by dumping my log data and taking a close look for myself. 

I had been trying to pull timing in the 2500-3000 rpm range at the 18-22hg area thinking this was my light throttle cruise area.  This had no effect on my pinging.  The 12-16 In-Hg area is where I should have been focusing my attention, as the log data shows this is truly the cruise and light throttle area. 

Even setting the dials on the DTT to 0 initial and 0 advance gives you 36 and 37 degrees of timing at 2500 and 3000rpm.  When you get into 3,4 or 4,5 settings and higher the timing jumps to 40-45 degrees advance at 16In-Hg.


Here is the map I am using right now, which is 05FLHTC's custom map with 20% added across the board.  Seems to be working great for now and I think the bike can even use a little more timing in some areas without problems.  For now I am just happy to have my power back without the dreaded pinging.






[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

DTT map from my 11:1 compression 114" motor running RedShift 647's.
This was developed from the baseline map I got from  Head-Quarters some years back.
I also used this same exact map on the 11.65:1 95" WT build prior to the 114".
Worked fine on the last two builds and I couldn't make them ping.
Could it have been better? Who Knows?
I'll be using it on the 107 being done right now.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

Thanks for sharing the maps & build details, if we can get more of em posted we all really would benefit from seeing the differences 

Maybe someone could help me better understand what the exact purpose & general use/effect of the DTT initial timing setting provides that is located in "edit module parameters tab". I'm not certain I understand what exactly it provides...I have read the directions countless times & still not sure I get it?

TIA,
05

Quote from: 05FLHTC on May 17, 2009, 06:18:26 PM
Thanks for sharing the maps & build details, if we can get more of em posted we all really would benefit from seeing the differences 

Maybe someone could help me better understand what the exact purpose & general use/effect of the DTT initial timing setting provides that is located in "edit module parameters tab". I'm not certain I understand what exactly it provides...I have read the directions countless times & still not sure I get it?

TIA,
05

List the name of the trim pots (switches) you have and the setting DTT tells you to use.....I can help you wit that.
Doc