HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on May 08, 2019, 08:31:32 PM
Did you change the tensioner at the same time you changed the tranny?

The tensioner is a Baker unit... been in there almost since the bike was new in '15.

One thing tho...

I've always struggled with the adjustment. It's that in one set of adjustment "grooves" the chain free play is right at the loose limit, in the next set it's at the tight limit. I've always set it at the loose limit until this last time when I put the DD7 in... I went up that one notch. It's in spec, but as I said, right at the limit.

I'm still waiting for suggestions from Baker. I've given them all of the info I've posted here.

Dug a little deeper today, still no smoking gun. Baker guy says he's waiting to talk to the engineers 

Guess I found the answer to why my clutch wobbles.... why wouldn't it wobble? The clutch is a "Potty mouth" fit on the mainshaft splines, stock or baker. Tightening the nut just holds it against the washer behind that says OUT on it, but is sure to cock it off center. I was able to get it better by changing the orientation on the splines, but not right....

https://vimeo.com/335631007/80561237bc 

Did you take a look at the splines in the clutch hub, see any obvious wear? I do know in my experience both the Barnett and the Bandit hubs seem to fit the transmission splines better. At least with OEM transmission shafts. Maybe also try the clutch hub on the OEM transmission shaft, see how it compares.

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 11, 2019, 05:26:38 PM
Did you take a look at the splines in the clutch hub, see any obvious wear? I do know in my experience both the Barnett and the Bandit hubs seem to fit the transmission splines better. At least with OEM transmission shafts. Maybe also try the clutch hub on the OEM transmission shaft, see how it compares.

There's no wear on the splines of the clutch hub... it's not a wear item. Once the nut is tightened it's locked in place. Fit is the same, stock or DD7.
One more update...

All back together. Slackened the chain one notch on the Baker adjuster, put in Redline 10-40 motor oil (not primary fluid), only because I had it on hand. (Oddly Redline oil isn't red).

First shift into neutral was silent. Then the next, and next. In fact a few times I had to let the clutch out slightly to get the gears lined up 

Test ride around the block a couple of times.... shifting mostly quiet. Still notchy but if it had stayed like this I'd be hard pressed to pull the DD7 & send it back. If.

Once warmed up it was back to banging, klanking into first, etc. 

Thinking about trying the MoCo's new primary fluid. 

Actually the splines can wear and break, and then the clutch basket can get pulled out of line, causes the ring gear to contact the inner primary under power. I've seen more than one bikes clutch hub splines damaged.


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So all you did was change the tranny any you got the clunk?

That's what I'm reading thru this. Very interesting.

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 11, 2019, 05:38:55 PM
Actually the splines can wear and break, and then the clutch basket can get pulled out of line, causes the ring gear to contact the inner primary under power. I've seen more than one bikes clutch hub splines damaged.

True enough, I just meant that it's not a wear item in that it's not supposed to move.

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on May 11, 2019, 05:58:51 PM
So all you did was change the tranny any you got the clunk?

Not so much that just changing the tranny made it klunk. The DD7 is advertised to be, and users attest to, being very quiet and smooth shifting as compared to the stock 6 speed. Mine is not. Smoother, quieter shifting is why I paid thousands of dollars for it.... I could have changed to lower gearing if that's all I was after. If you're asking did I do any other mods at the same time the answer is no.

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on May 11, 2019, 07:17:46 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 11, 2019, 05:38:55 PM
Actually the splines can wear and break, and then the clutch basket can get pulled out of line, causes the ring gear to contact the inner primary under power. I've seen more than one bikes clutch hub splines damaged.

True enough, I just meant that it's not a wear item in that it's not supposed to move.

ahh, got ya John.

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on May 11, 2019, 07:17:46 PM

Not so much that just changing the tranny made it klunk. The DD7 is advertised to be, and users attest to, being very quiet and smooth shifting as compared to the stock 6 speed. Mine is not. Smoother, quieter shifting is why I paid thousands of dollars for it.... I could have changed to lower gearing if that's all I was after. If you're asking did I do any other mods at the same time the answer is no.

So you didn't disassemble the clutch until after you got the clunk?

One thing to note is the reason why Baker (IMO) says that the 7 speed is a smoother shifter is because the gears ratios are spaced closer together.   The closer ratio means the clutch has less of a RPM change when shifting gears.  That is what typically causes the clutch clunk.  The trannies don't have synchros.   The 5 speeds I have with close ratio 1st and 2nd, shift smoother 1-2, 2-3 compared to a stock tranny.

For neutral to 1st, drag in the tranny will reduce clunk so maybe the dd7 has less drag.  I doubt they can make the claim for an easier shift from neutral to 1st. They definitely can't for the M8s.

As I recall when I did the DD7 I pulled the clutch off as a unit.

The fact that it now seems OK when cold has me looking at fluids...
No KLANK into first means, as you say, there is sufficient drag in the trans to overcome parasitic drag of the spinning clutch. Seems the multi-vis oil in the primary would be at it's thinnest then. As things heat up, the primary oil thickens... more parasitic drag.... KLANK.
Probably explains why I always had such great success with syn ATF.
Thinking along the same lines.... it would seem light, straight weight fluid would work the best 

As things heat up, the primary oil thickens.
It is actually opposite of that.

Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 12, 2019, 07:33:59 AM
As things heat up, the primary oil thickens.
It is actually opposite of that.

You're right of course... not enough coffee...

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One thing to consider may be expansion.  If your oil level is close to the edge of the clutch disc cold, it may be into the clutch when hot (or riding and maneuvering). The oil will move to the front on braking, the rear on acceleration and side to side on turns, further changing the depth.  I think that is why so many have good success with a reduced volume and companies like Bandit even recommend it. Have you tried to remove some oil and see if there is a change? 

Quote from: kd on May 12, 2019, 08:13:28 AM
One thing to consider may be expansion.  If your oil level is close to the edge of the clutch disc cold, it may be into the clutch when hot (or riding and maneuvering). The oil will move to the front on braking, the rear on acceleration and side to side on turns, further changing the depth.  I think that is why so many have good success with a reduced volume and companies like Bandit even recommend it. Have you tried to remove some oil and see if there is a change?

Fun with fluids...

Today I dropped the 10-40 oil from the primary & put in a measured 26 ounces of Redline 75-140 gear oil. (Again.... NOT Redline motorcycle product). Took some temp readings before & after a 10-15 mile "spirited" run...

Before, 78 degrees.

After, head temp at 268 degrees:

Primary by comp: 190
Primary by starter: 168
Trans @ DD7 Logo: 202 (All with Fluke gun)

Cold performance was as before... great. Hot.... I'd say maybe 30% improvement? Hard to say for sure. One thing is for sure is that as things heat up they go south.

A little research... The Bel-Ray 85-140 hypoid gear oil in the trans viscosity is 376@40c/27 @100c.

 

That explains why the cold shifts into 1st are quiet... resistance to spinning the mainshaft.

My guess at this point is my DD7 is at the loose end of tolerances, and as the oil gets thinner it gets even looser. I don't see much they're going to be able to do about that through email. 

At any rate I'm done until they make a decision.

I hate when people post "Potty mouth" like this, but the DD7 I put in my 124" 07 RK is one of the best mods I've ever done to the bike.

I tore 6 teeth off the 3rd gear cluster in the stock 6 speed with an air shift  racing a buddy of mine & rather than repair it I installed the DD7 builders kit.  I have a Vulcan solid engine sprocket, the newer Baker adjuster & Bandit Sportsman clutch with Trask basket. 14 ounces of Redline Primary fluid & Redline HD Shockproof in the tranny.

Everybody who had ridden my bike can believe how smooth & quiet it shifts.  I can slip it into neutral at a dead stop easily any time I want.

~John

Quote from: jmorton10 on May 13, 2019, 09:09:42 AM
I hate when people post "Potty mouth" like this, but the DD7 I put in my 124" 07 RK is one of the best mods I've ever done to the bike.

I tore 6 teeth off the 3rd gear cluster in the stock 6 speed with an air shift  racing a buddy of mine & rather than repair it I installed the DD7 builders kit.  I have a Vulcan solid engine sprocket, the newer Baker adjuster & Bandit Sportsman clutch with Trask basket. 14 ounces of Redline Primary fluid & Redline HD Shockproof in the tranny.

Everybody who had ridden my bike can believe how smooth & quiet it shifts.  I can slip it into neutral at a dead stop easily any time I want.

~John

Does you bike have a "slip/assist" clutch in it?

Quote from: jmorton10 on May 13, 2019, 09:09:42 AM
I hate when people post "Potty mouth" like this, but the DD7 I put in my 124" 07 RK is one of the best mods I've ever done to the bike.

I tore 6 teeth off the 3rd gear cluster in the stock 6 speed with an air shift  racing a buddy of mine & rather than repair it I installed the DD7 builders kit.  I have a Vulcan solid engine sprocket, the newer Baker adjuster & Bandit Sportsman clutch with Trask basket. 14 ounces of Redline Primary fluid & Redline HD Shockproof in the tranny.

Everybody who had ridden my bike can believe how smooth & quiet it shifts.  I can slip it into neutral at a dead stop easily any time I want.

~John

How does everything you say being true affect me?   

I think your luck is like mine, you bought a good product, it works for everybody.. but you.
That's exactly how my luck goes, they could sell 10 thousand that worked perfect, and I'd buy the 1 that didn't . Hope they can get it resolved for you. I've never dealt with baker, but had always read good things about them

It's my bet that, the issue is the clutch.  The pressure plate on the SA clutch has to rotate so many degrees to work. It rattles.  I can make the primary on my 17 RK rattle so bad that it'll sound like it's going to blow..

If the original tranny was considerably quieter, I'd suspect that DD7 probably has more clearance / lash in the dog clutches (lets them brag about smoother shifting).   The extra clearance like allows the SA clutch to rattle more..

One thing you could try is to go back to the stock tensioner and see if the clunk gets better.  If you have a non-SA clutch laying around try that.

I'm not ruling the clutch (or anything) out. But, as I mentioned before... it has always worked ok. It has .080+ throw, engages all the way out at the lever (away from the grip). There is zero problem finding neutral.
The clutch also doesn't explain the notchy, detent between gears shifting, and grinding downshifts.

I do still have the stock tensioner on the shelf. As for replacement clutches.... not positive what my options are there. The '15 Limited Low was kind of a bastard model. It has the old style hydraulic clutch system that was only found elsewhere in the CVOs at the time. I also have a narrowed primary that was unique to the Low models. The master/slave cylinders changed in '17 I'm pretty sure.

I'm sure Baker will figure it out. I don't want to sound like I'm bashing them or their product. In fact it's the reputation the DD7 has that lets me know mine has an issue. I'm also curious to hear what they find in the other poster's grudgebox.
Thanks for your (and everyone's)  thoughts on the matter.

Well, the DD7 is out & will be on the way back to Baker for "evaluation" on Tuesday. Here is the extent of Baker field testing...

Baker: How much clutch disk travel do you have?

Me: .080+

Baker: Unfortunately we have reached a point that I think you will need to send it in to be inspected. We have went through all of the adjustments and other parts that might be causing this

Great. And I hear they are running weeks for "inspections"

Soooo..... I'm putting the 6 speed back in & have a little issue.... it won't go in  It gets maybe 1/2" shy & hits a hard stop. Try the Baker again, slides right in. 6 speed... hard stop.

I still have the Baker MDG assembly in there... is it not compatible with the stock 6 speed  I was trying to save some time but as usual that ain't how it's working out lol.

There is a Baker main drive Timken for the OEM six speed, but maybe what they supply with the DD7 is not the same?

And the answer is.... I'm screwed as usual 

Here's the "what's included" list for the Baker MDG kit on their website...

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Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on May 25, 2019, 07:49:32 PM
Well, the DD7 is out & will be on the way back to Baker for "evaluation" on Tuesday. Here is the extent of Baker field testing... I was trying to save some time but as usual that ain't how it's working out lol.

Would it be quicker/easier to send them the entire thing? Case and gears? No riding, but would give them more things to check...