Gunna give this one a try.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c4_997b85e76be1f59c40accc6195c025dfb94f212d.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c4_997b85e76be1f59c40accc6195c025dfb94f212d.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/10632697_10152915098057244_8275695253736302687_n.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/10632697_10152915098057244_8275695253736302687_n.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/10262173_10152976356192244_4694692896536535909_n.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/10262173_10152976356192244_4694692896536535909_n.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c2_994116e53878a64b70faca7f92aeccdda4e5c71b.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c2_994116e53878a64b70faca7f92aeccdda4e5c71b.jpg.html)
Looking forward to the feedback! :chop:
Me too! If it works out you will probably see them stock on the 2016 models....
:pop:
I'm subscribed!
Ray
Well damn it ! I just put my primary back together and it finally comes out ! Looks really nice , Roland Sands will be making a clear primary cover for that :wink: Any idea on price ?
They will sell out quick!
I just won some $$ on a scratchoff lottery ticket. Dinner for the ol lady, and new parts for big blackie.
Only 8 leaving the factory on the first run. 1 on its way to Mississippi right now.
Anyone know if they will have different tooth counts available for changing gear ratios?
Quote from: cherryseeg2 on January 07, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Anyone know if they will have different tooth counts available for changing gear ratios?
Hopefully that will be an option and maybe a chain with the kit
Bet they'll be about $600.00 :potstir:
Looks like they went with the tried and true 05 and earlier ramp design.
If they are $600 that would be a hard one for me to jump on. They better have a Lay-a-way program.
Well, a pretty simple primary chain adjuster is about $225.00, so just sayin.
Look forward to seeing this unit at the V Twin show. might change my mind on getting a new style touring bike.
Didn't a rep from Baker already say they were shooting for a $200ish price point??
I'm just glad somebody got off of there tails and did something. Kudos to Baker. I look forward to real world results.
Nice!!! any pics of the spring pack? Can't believe it took this long for someone to bring something else to market. Wonder if the darkhorse one ever got finished
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 07, 2015, 02:49:56 PM
Only 8 leaving the factory on the first run. 1 on its way to Mississippi right now.
I think those are still preproduction units.
Everyone was probably thinking that Harley was going to fix the problem cuz it was so bad. They must have felt the warrantee claims that they couldn't deny. We know of some people that worked up a solution that was - can I say - probably pirated. I hope it works and Baker is savvy enough to hold on to it. If the MoCo gets their hands on it it definitely won't be cheap.
My '09 had been "bucking" some of the hot restarts. Curious what this unit gets for feed back and pricing. Having to buy a new rotor and grind on the primary case to get the old one out makes you look for alternatives.
Quote from: BVHOG on January 07, 2015, 06:43:15 PM
Nice!!! any pics of the spring pack? Can't believe it took this long for someone to bring something else to market. Wonder if the darkhorse one ever got finished
Dealing with John on something else but ill ask him where his comp stands right now.
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
Figures, I just went with the latest SE design. Keep us posted!
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
I actually like that mod. :up: Spacer pressure point against rotor was always iffy in my opinion.
Ron
Quote from: juice1775 on January 08, 2015, 03:46:03 AM
Figures, I just went with the latest SE design. Keep us posted!
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. There are some on this forum that claim there are no issues with the OEM SE comp as it its. :hyst:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 08, 2015, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
I actually like that mod. :up: Spacer pressure point against rotor was always iffy in my opinion.
Ron
I have a friend that has a nice groove cut in the rotor where the spacer rides, on a bike he services.
He is thinking that his son installed the splined hub backwards, evidently this must be more common?
Quote from: Durwood on January 08, 2015, 05:27:53 AM
Quote from: rbabos on January 08, 2015, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
I actually like that mod. :up: Spacer pressure point against rotor was always iffy in my opinion.
Ron
I have a friend that has a nice groove cut in the rotor where the spacer rides, on a bike he services.
He is thinking that his son installed the splined hub backwards, evidently this must be more common?
Rotor material is soft compared the the rest of the components, allowing the bearing spacer to imprint it. This causes a loss of original torque of the compensator bolt up. Lose enough then the rotor starts to shift back and forth at low rpms, chewing in a deeper groove into the rotor contact face.
Ron
Subscribed.
I can't believe it's took this long for someone the design a pre 06 style comp. I always wondered why it hasn't been done, guess I should have jumped on it.
Quote from: BJB on January 07, 2015, 07:46:01 PM
My '09 had been "bucking" some of the hot restarts. Curious what this unit gets for feed back and pricing. Having to buy a new rotor and grind on the primary case to get the old one out makes you look for alternatives.
IF ME, I go the FULL route of disassembly of the INNER Primary... I thought to go the less time? and grind away on My 09 King...
Glad I did the full take-apart. The bearing behind the clutch/primary bearing looked like a Dimpled Golf Ball... :unsure:
Just Saying for Others here.....signed....BUBBIE
My 2011 stocker, (Early SE) could crash tomorrow, but I have had absolutely no issues with it to date, and 23,000 miles, It sounds and acts just like it did in Sept of 2011.
I use 32oz of formula plus at every oil change. Plus my bike has been properly tuned since new, irratic timing is one of the big contributors to compensator failure IMHO.
Glad to see there is an alternative on the horizon.
Quote from: JohnCA58 on January 07, 2015, 04:48:27 PM
Look forward to seeing this unit at the V Twin show. might change my mind on getting a new style touring bike.
There's still the FBW on the newer bikes that I can't get too enthused about. (JMHO).
Rick
Just installed the newest SE comp and now this?? Now I am seeing WHY people buy everything else Hondos.Yamahaha,etc :scratch:
Here is hoping that it corrects the comp problem or SLOWS IT DOWN A BIT!!
1900 or so HD A hundred $$$
1950 or so HD HUNDREDS of $$$$$
2000 or so HD THOSANDS (Ya it dont fit) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hell the Japs dont want HD
now maybe someone can come up with the tyranny main bearing fix. they would make a killing.
Seeing that I'm on my 4 comp (second 2014 style) Id be willing in to pay $600 if this one worked and I didn't have to keep changing comps so often!
Quote from: Templer on January 08, 2015, 09:25:43 AM
Just installed the newest SE comp and now this?? Now I am seeing WHY people buy everything else Hondos.Yamahaha,etc :scratch:
Here is hoping that it corrects the comp problem or SLOWS IT DOWN A BIT!!
1900 or so HD A hundred $$$
1950 or so HD HUNDREDS of $$$$$
2000 or so HD THOSANDS (Ya it dont fit) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hell the Japanese dont want HD
Actually harley sells a ton in Japan, look it up.
Quote from: hdrolling on January 08, 2015, 04:25:52 PM
Seeing that I'm on my 4 comp (second 2014 style) Id be willing in to pay $600 if this one worked and I didn't have to keep changing comps so often!
What happened to your 14 comp?
Quote from: Templer on January 08, 2015, 09:25:43 AM
Hell the Japanese dont want HD
Where do you think all of the Shovels have gone? Europe and Asia.
That is a thing of beauty.
Baker may be expensive as hell, but they build some seriously better mouse traps. (although the newer chain adjuster is not quite as better, IMO)
Price probably will be cost prohibitive to most, but then again the Compensaver ain't cheap neither... HD accepting defeat and buying the design from Baker is not an unrealistic idea... that said, it's more likely they'd steal the design and claim they already own the patents for the functional design.
What happened to your 14 comp?
[/quote]
Same as the other three, the ramps started to show lots of wear and caused the bike to start hard and back fire if it failed to start. Also had the loud clunk at shut down.
(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/hdrolling/IMG_2792_zps42066e90.jpg)
hd rolling on the 09 up there's been a lot of failure on the comps. This hasn't just started.
Also welcome.
Im one of the people that has not had a problem with the very first comp update. :pop:
But then again im not one that tries to make a race bike out of a freight train, just enough to make me happy.
I had an EVO making 140 HP and never had an issue with the old style comp. It handeled the power with no issues so I could never understand why they felt the need to reinvent it. In fact I had posted a question here on HTT about this and was told the reason for the redesign was because the earlier comp was harder on the crank so they had to do something to address the crank failures. Ok they tried it, it doesn't work, so why not go back to the tried n true 99-02 cranks with timkens and the older version comp??? :nix: It's great to see Baker addressing this and coming out with what looks like a decent fix. I just hope it does't bring the issues back to the cranks all over again. :pop:
Quote from: Reddog74usa on January 09, 2015, 05:05:47 AM
I had an EVO making 140 HP and never had an issue with the old style comp. It handeled the power with no issues so I could never understand why they felt the need to reinvent it. In fact I had posted a question here on HTT about this and was told the reason for the redesign was because the earlier comp was harder on the crank so they had to do something to address the crank failures. Ok they tried it, it doesn't work, so why not go back to the tried n true 99-02 cranks with timkens and the older version comp??? :nix: It's great to see Baker addressing this and coming out with what looks like a decent fix. I just hope it does't bring the issues back to the cranks all over again. :pop:
Most certainly did drop the amount of shifted cranks going from the early 07 comp to the new SE's.
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 05:30:16 AM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on January 09, 2015, 05:05:47 AM
I had an EVO making 140 HP and never had an issue with the old style comp. It handeled the power with no issues so I could never understand why they felt the need to reinvent it. In fact I had posted a question here on HTT about this and was told the reason for the redesign was because the earlier comp was harder on the crank so they had to do something to address the crank failures. Ok they tried it, it doesn't work, so why not go back to the tried n true 99-02 cranks with timkens and the older version comp??? :nix: It's great to see Baker addressing this and coming out with what looks like a decent fix. I just hope it does't bring the issues back to the cranks all over again. :pop:
Most certainly did drop the amount of shifted cranks going from the early 07 comp to the new SE's.
Really, it was the comp?
I thought i read they changed the specs on the cranks and added protection to the ecm software. :nix:
This isn't Gospel, just what I read here on HTT so that could very well be the case
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 09, 2015, 07:13:40 AM
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 05:30:16 AM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on January 09, 2015, 05:05:47 AM
I had an EVO making 140 HP and never had an issue with the old style comp. It handeled the power with no issues so I could never understand why they felt the need to reinvent it. In fact I had posted a question here on HTT about this and was told the reason for the redesign was because the earlier comp was harder on the crank so they had to do something to address the crank failures. Ok they tried it, it doesn't work, so why not go back to the tried n true 99-02 cranks with timkens and the older version comp??? :nix: It's great to see Baker addressing this and coming out with what looks like a decent fix. I just hope it does't bring the issues back to the cranks all over again. :pop:
Most certainly did drop the amount of shifted cranks going from the early 07 comp to the new SE's.
Really, it was the comp?
I thought i read they changed the specs on the cranks and added protection to the ecm software. :nix:
Specs were to extend their level of runout to eliminate more warranty claims. The SE was brought out to protect the crank, and cleverly marketed as a race component. Funny how when most bought one on their own dime it eventually became a stock component. :wink: Shock loads on the first year version comps was rediculous. With it's jackhammer effect it was almost as bad as a solid comp. Key goal was to ease up on the crank shock and between the SE and like you say a bit tighter press MoCo greatly got out of many warranty claims. The fact they also needed to protect with ECM software points to the fact the pressed cranks can and do slip. Just way less then the early days. Say you get the crank treated, then the next week link is the crank splines. Shock protection still a good idea and more so as the engines get pushed in hp and torque. Just how I see it.
Ron
What protection did they put into the ECM?
The Baker comp will be right around $400. If there is a demand for a different tooth count im sure they will make it.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
What protection did they put into the ECM?
FBW blade opening rate or some crap like that. You'd know better.
Ron
interesting, it looks like the oil will go inside via the holes when the comp. stops moving. once started the oils looks like it will be trapped inside the comp. with the ramps..... :scratch: Im I looking at this correctly?
Or does it look like they sealed out the oil?....... hard to tell from the pictures.
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
What protection did they put into the ECM?
FBW blade opening rate or some crap like that. You'd know better.
Ron
I hear about torque management. I haven't seen it work with any data I log. I have lost bottom end tq with maxing out the blade table. What is it limiting to and why isn't it going nuts when I am tuning a bike putting out 125 tq with a cal sucked out of a bike with Vision that was made for a stock 103 and it's torque out put?
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 09, 2015, 09:31:13 AM
The Baker comp will be right around $400. If there is a demand for a different tooth count im sure they will make it.
I called Baker Drivetrain today and talked to them about this new comp replacement they will have out soon.
A guy in sales told me that they have them in the field being tested and none were for sale at this time. Whoever it was that I talked to said they should be ready to go in the next 30 days and they would have it at the upcoming Expo for all to see.
He quoted me a price of $399.00 for the unit and said he would take a credit card number on hold from me and send me one as soon as they are ready to go...then charge my card at shipping time. I told him I would call him back after I see some positive reviews on it.
He said to date with their testing and those that they have out in the field testing them...that they have heard nothing but positive feedback so far. He said this is the fix for the HD comp woes. I hope he is right.
Ray
just one more reason I'm glad to have an 04
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
What protection did they put into the ECM?
FBW blade opening rate or some crap like that. You'd know better.
Ron
I hear about torque management. I haven't seen it work with any data I log. I have lost bottom end tq with maxing out the blade table. What is it limiting to and why isn't it going nuts when I am tuning a bike putting out 125 tq with a cal sucked out of a bike with Vision that was made for a stock 103 and it's torque out put?
I've only read about Jason. Don't know how or if it works in the stock calibration. Could only be MoCo hype because if tuners don't see it, not sure how realistic it is? :nix: Logically it should be a limiter on how fast the throttle plate opens, related to kpa. I'm not a tuner, only pretend to be one on the forum. :hyst:
Ron
Quote from: wholehog on January 09, 2015, 03:57:16 PM
just one more reason I'm glad to have an 04
Better yet, a 2000 :wink:
:pop:
I wonder what type of primary fluid they're testing with?
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 12:57:49 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 09, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
What protection did they put into the ECM?
FBW blade opening rate or some crap like that. You'd know better.
Ron
I hear about torque management. I haven't seen it work with any data I log. I have lost bottom end tq with maxing out the blade table. What is it limiting to and why isn't it going nuts when I am tuning a bike putting out 125 tq with a cal sucked out of a bike with Vision that was made for a stock 103 and it's torque out put?
I've only read about Jason. Don't know how or if it works in the stock calibration. Could only be MoCo hype because if tuners don't see it, not sure how realistic it is? :nix: Logically it should be a limiter on how fast the throttle plate opens, related to kpa. I'm not a tuner, only pretend to be one on the forum. :hyst:
Ron
That is why I asked the question. What protection is built into the ECM? Was hoping somebody could explain it to me.
This is how throttle blade opening is limited in neutral and gears 1, 2, 3:
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1657)
Subscribed...
Quote from: Karl H. on January 11, 2015, 01:31:14 AM
This is how throttle blade opening is limited in neutral and gears 1, 2, 3:
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1657)
Maxing out these tables can hurt acceleration. Slowing down the throttle blade can help air speed during the transition to WOT.
Quote from: No Cents on January 09, 2015, 02:26:02 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 09, 2015, 09:31:13 AM
The Baker comp will be right around $400. If there is a demand for a different tooth count im sure they will make it.
I called Baker Drivetrain today and talked to them about this new comp replacement they will have out soon.
A guy in sales told me that they have them in the field being tested and none were for sale at this time. Whoever it was that I talked to said they should be ready to go in the next 30 days and they would have it at the upcoming Expo for all to see.
He quoted me a price of $399.00 for the unit and said he would take a credit card number on hold from me and send me one as soon as they are ready to go...then charge my card at shipping time. I told him I would call him back after I see some positive reviews on it.
He said to date with their testing and those that they have out in the field testing them...that they have heard nothing but positive feedback so far. He said this is the fix for the HD comp woes. I hope he is right.
Ray
i am going to give a call to Baker tomm and put my name on the list..I'de rather be a guinea pig for Baker than Harley. I have already been through 3 SE Comps in 50k and my 4th is on the fritz and has been for the past 5 months. I have 100 times more faith in the Baker products than i do with Harley....I know Baker has done their homework with this one..
Mark anyway you can expedite my comp :)
marc v
Quote from: chico on January 09, 2015, 05:00:08 AM
Im one of the people that has not had a problem with the very first comp update. :pop:
But then again im not one that tries to make a race bike out of a freight train, just enough to make me happy.
I agree. It always amazes how folks on forums come up with some of these so-called problems. Can't begin to imagine how many don't have problems...but start reading a forum and the sky just has to be falling. The aftermarket folks love forums like this. A few folks have a problem and all of a sudden the after market folks come out with something new...charge 3x as much...then their stuff doesn't measure up. It's a cycle of never ending cash flowing from one pocket to the next. I love reading the forum but it's always a simple few, as compared to the REAL number of Harley's on the street, that stir the "sky is falling pot".
As someone else mentioned...the primary chain adjuster from these folks isn't the greatest...yet a new comp....everyone gets a woody.
It's all a never ending money pit and the aftermarket knows this. Geez, if HD can put out crap and still sell it...why shouldn't the aftermarket jump on the bandwagon and take everyones money.
40K on a stock 07 compensator and not a peep out of it yet.
Quote from: rbabos on January 09, 2015, 05:30:16 AM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on January 09, 2015, 05:05:47 AM
I had an EVO making 140 HP and never had an issue with the old style comp. It handeled the power with no issues so I could never understand why they felt the need to reinvent it. In fact I had posted a question here on HTT about this and was told the reason for the redesign was because the earlier comp was harder on the crank so they had to do something to address the crank failures. Ok they tried it, it doesn't work, so why not go back to the tried n true 99-02 cranks with timkens and the older version comp??? :nix: It's great to see Baker addressing this and coming out with what looks like a decent fix. I just hope it does't bring the issues back to the cranks all over again. :pop:
Most certainly did drop the amount of shifted cranks going from the early 07 comp to the new SE's.
And you know this as a fact? Prove it!
Quote40K on a stock 07 compensator and not a peep out of it yet.
have you ever looked at it out of curiosity to see how the spring bucket is going?
Quote from: Karl H. on January 11, 2015, 01:31:14 AM
This is how throttle blade opening is limited in neutral and gears 1, 2, 3:
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1657)
I think this is what you are referring to. See attachment..
:pop:
(http://i.imgur.com/RVNQs5v.png)
Quote from: FSG on January 12, 2015, 01:22:20 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/RVNQs5v.png)
Uhhh, FSG, it's only Monday here..... :teeth:
By the way, PM me the winning lottery numbers, I'll split it with you. :smiled:
Quote from: cherryseeg2 on January 07, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Anyone know if they will have different tooth counts available for changing gear ratios?
A sales guy at Baker today told me 34 tooth.
placed my order today bright and early with Mark.. it was perfect timing as i had my primary apart already almost ready to order another se unit..hopefully this will be it for a while
marc
Quote from: No Cents on January 09, 2015, 02:26:02 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 09, 2015, 09:31:13 AM
The Baker comp will be right around $400. If there is a demand for a different tooth count im sure they will make it.
I called Baker Drivetrain today and talked to them about this new comp replacement they will have out soon.
A guy in sales told me that they have them in the field being tested and none were for sale at this time. Whoever it was that I talked to said they should be ready to go in the next 30 days and they would have it at the upcoming Expo for all to see.
He quoted me a price of $399.00 for the unit and said he would take a credit card number on hold from me and send me one as soon as they are ready to go...then charge my card at shipping time. I told him I would call him back after I see some positive reviews on it.
He said to date with their testing and those that they have out in the field testing them...that they have heard nothing but positive feedback so far. He said this is the fix for the HD comp woes. I hope he is right.
I talked to a guy at Baker today and after I got off the phone couldn't remember if he said $299.00 or $399.00. I was mainly interested in finding out how test results were and where I could find reviews. I will take your word for it as the $399.00. Isn't the latest and greatest SE Comp $299.00?? If so, I would have thought Baker's price for theirs would be in line with the SE.
Ray
did Mark give you an ETA on the comp?
He told me last Friday that they were more than likely a month out.
Ray
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 12, 2015, 05:21:41 PM
I will take your word for it as the $399.00. Isn't the latest and greatest SE Comp $299.00?? If so, I would have thought Baker's price for theirs would be in line with the SE.
Only $100 more for one that will work? That's a deal if you ask me (you didn't :teeth:)
Rick
Quote from: No Cents on January 12, 2015, 05:23:57 PM
did Mark give you an ETA on the comp?
He told me last Friday that they were more than likely a month out.
Ray
Limited early release. After talking with him I think it will be the guys with big motors and those who ride a lot that get em first. I think they want to see if there will be any issues fairly fast to make corrections like when they came out with the first primary adjusters.
Quote from: No Cents on January 12, 2015, 05:23:57 PM
did Mark give you an ETA on the comp?
He told me last Friday that they were more than likely a month out.
Ray
yea ray he estimated 30 days out as long as the rest of the testing goes well..
mark mentioned to me that he has one getting beat up on pretty hard on the dyno down in mississippi and all is going well, as well as 7 others on the dyno/street being tested..
and yes everyone..$399 is what it is..
marc
Geez, I ordered one before I knew the price. :smilep:
How are these getting oil to the center/oscillating hub?
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 14, 2015, 06:38:09 AM
How are these getting oil to the center/oscillating hub?
Great question..... :oil:
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 14, 2015, 06:38:09 AM
How are these getting oil to the center/oscillating hub?
I was wondering the same thing........ also is the comp. going to be precision ground like the photo or are the ramps going to be cast like the OEM version......
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 14, 2015, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 14, 2015, 06:38:09 AM
How are these getting oil to the center/oscillating hub?
I was wondering the same thing........ also is the comp. going to be precision ground like the photo or are the ramps going to be cast like the OEM version......
Those were actually done on a CNC, not ground, so far we are seeing no oiling issues with this version. Never seen oiling problems with the 5 speed version and those primaries were generally only filled with 32oz. so we really didn't expect to see a problem. So far so good.
NOW, DON'T Get after me Crew...........
Mark,
Are these New Bakers a Can style LIKE the Original in my 09 King OR like the SE 08A I replaced it with........
SO many post and BLAW Blaw here.... Get this from the :horse: <<<<<<< Mouth.......
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on January 14, 2015, 09:14:32 AM
NOW, DON'T Get after me Crew...........
Mark,
Are these New Bakers a Can style LIKE the Original in my 09 King OR like the SE 08A I replaced it with........
SO many post and BLAW Blaw here.... Get this from the :horse: <<<<<<< Mouth.......
signed....BUBBIE
Neither really Bubbie, they are more like the 5 speed style you will need the 30041-08A rotor though.
Quote from: Mark P on January 14, 2015, 07:46:37 AM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 14, 2015, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 14, 2015, 06:38:09 AM
How are these getting oil to the center/oscillating hub?
I was wondering the same thing........ also is the comp. going to be precision ground like the photo or are the ramps going to be cast like the OEM version......
Those were actually done on a CNC, not ground, so far we are seeing no oiling issues with this version. Never seen oiling problems with the 5 speed version and those primaries were generally only filled with 32oz. so we really didn't expect to see a problem. So far so good.
I agree with you on that
What part of the compesator fails? I had an 04 with no problems. I now have a 2014 and I'm wondering if the comp will be a future problem to watch for. I've read a lot of compaints but I don't recall exactly what fails and why.
Nothing failed on pre 07 bikes. Well, I'll bet there is hamfisted redneck out there somewhere that has managed to mess one up, but I've never seen or heard of any in our area.
Actually the 06 Dyna was the guinea pig for the new type compensator. In 07, all HD had the new style POS that they still haven't got right after almost 8 yrs. Oh myyyyy!!! :wtf:
All HD prior to that had the original comp which is pretty much indestructible. Mine has handles 125plus HP since 05, still stock part, no signs of wear with 99K.
On your 04, just forget about it!!! Ride :soda: Buffalo
Cant wait to give this comp a try! I wonder how many pre orders Baker has gotten?
Installation instructions are up on the website now. Looks like there is a lip on the inside of the sprocket (Fig 2) to pull oil into the center.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit)
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V1-11915.3.pdf (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V1-11915.3.pdf)
I wonder how many and what size springs are in that Spring Cup Assembly.
Im wondering what the spring pressure is at. How does it compare the the early (pre 07) comps.
Very interesting! :pop: :beer: :beer:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 07, 2015, 04:25:16 PM
Looks like they went with the tried and true 05 and earlier ramp design.
They not only did what I said, they actually advertise it the way I said it.
Maybe they pay more attention to this forum than we thought. :hyst:
From their web site http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit)
These improvements were achieved by merging" the tried-n-true pre-2007 cam lobe geometry" with a patent pending circular oil trough that channels primary lubricant into the cam lobe region.
When my 2012 comp craps out or gets noisy I'll be buying one. I never ever had any compensator issues with either my hot rod 95, nor stroked evo...
Mark - do you guys think a 32T version will be possible or is it physically impossible with this design?
Mark P call me yesterday and said he has one on a 124 right now for testing. I can only guess its really not really being abused. But for more just to see if it holds up..
He did say it is based off the earlier style comp which he said never had an oiling issue.. He didnt mention the earlier style problems I've read on the other threads on here.
My personal thoughts about it is its not going to hold. Wether the spring will crack, or get extremly heated due to lack of oil cirulation, or even stripping the crank bolt due to short travel design. The travel is a lot more limited then the newest SE version. Also the SE version looks more progressive style spring pack. That being said, even if the baker did have a big enough spring to dampen the forces, that's just that more added pressure in such a short travel. As far as lubrication goes the baker looks to hold the oil once trapped, however that's just it, it trapped it is not being circulated.. Yes the SE has a glued plastic ramp in the cover, but it provides a fresh dose of circulated oil directly inside the comp. Even if the plastic tray falls off the primary, how much damage u think it could do. Most likely find a place in the corner of the primary and stay there.
I'm going to give the SE a try. At least it comes with the new rotor for the same price. I just feel overall better feeling about it. Besides SE going through 8 designs just means that they know about the problem and are constantly improving, or at least trying. Not just going back in time to the old comp with old problems.
The machining and i'd think the metallurgy on the Baker is superior.
It will be interesting to see how this new comp works out and only time will tell. Two things jump out as I read through the Baker instructions.
The early 5 speed primaries ran more gear reduction than the newer primaries. The new gear ratio has proven to put more load on the crankshaft and all its components. It will be interesting to see how this ramp geometry and spring pack handle the additional loads from this new gear ratio because the demands defiantly differ from the early models.
The second thing is Baker, calls out Formula + primary fluid or Spectro Heavy Duty Primary Chaincase Oil for use with this comp. Many brands of performance clutches call for ATF or one of the other light primary fluids for use with their products so how the Baker holds up in these high power builds with these fluids seems to be untested so far.
That is one thing I might be concerned about. Im running a Bandit clutch. The reduced amount of fluid might be an issue. Time will tell.
Quote from: N-gin on January 22, 2015, 03:08:25 AM
Mark P call me yesterday and said he has one on a 124 right now for testing. I can only guess its really not really being abused. But for more just to see if it holds up..
He did say it is based off the earlier style comp which he said never had an oiling issue.. He didnt mention the earlier style problems I've read on the other threads on here.
Mark is referring to the pre '07 comps I guess. No issues there.
Quote from: N-gin on January 22, 2015, 03:08:25 AM
As far as lubrication goes the baker looks to hold the oil once trapped, however that's just it, it trapped it is not being circulated..
If the new Baker comp can get oil to the ramps where you think it may get trapped wouldn't the constant oil being supplied be considered "circulated"? If it gets oil then it will flood out and recover with fresh oil from the "circular channel design".
Or are you thinking that once it fills with oil the centrifugal force of the trapped oil will over power "circular channel design" and won't allow fresh oil in?
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 22, 2015, 05:22:15 AM
That is one thing I might be concerned about. Im running a Bandit clutch. The reduced amount of fluid might be an issue. Time will tell.
I do not have any testing on this subject but I believe the additional oil the factory puts in the late primaries is because the design of the primary requires more oil to get the level to the same place on the clutch basket.
I think both 5 speed and 6 speed factory primaries ask to have the oil level to the bottom of the clutch plates. If this is the case the oil amount was not dictated by the comp version.
Ya know we shouldn't have to go through all this crap with 8 redesigns just because the MOCO insists on using a substandard crank and bearing set up for us to have a late model bike. I think Baker is on the right track with there new design as I believe it will address the comp issues. The question is will the issues revert back to the crank and cause issues as once you strengthen one component? Will the problems move to the next weakest point? As far as going back in time, Well, the older design comp and crank worked flawlessly so why not go back. In fact I am one that is tired of hearing about all the issues with these new models and may just sell my 08 and go back to an earlier (02 and back or Evo) bike as they run good and come with much more piece of mind. It just seems like the later bikes are designed to just keep taking the money out of your wallet. ALL this being said, I know there are many that are riding late model bikes with no issues but man, the volume of issues you read about here on HTT really makes you think twice about the reliability of the later model TC's.
Eric, 32oz puts the oil level right at the bottom of the plates on my bike and several others I service, If you go by the SM spec, the plates are swimming in fluid, at least from my experience.
I am with Baker on this, that the added capacity was an attempt to get oil on the comp, but that's just a guess.
Quote from: N-gin on January 22, 2015, 03:08:25 AM
Not just going back in time to the old comp with old problems.
What was wrong with the old compensators?
Rick
Quote from: Durwood on January 22, 2015, 05:52:17 AM
Eric, 32oz puts the oil level right at the bottom of the plates on my bike and several others I service, If you go by the SM spec, the plates are swimming in fluid, at least from my experience.
I am with Baker on this, that the added capacity was an attempt to get oil on the comp, but that's just a guess.
Short of submerging the bitch, that extra oil wouldn't have any added effect to oiling the comp. Only collected and directed oil to a specific area works. All random oil that gets splashed onto the comp just flings off and the core remains unlubed.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 22, 2015, 06:15:58 AM
Quote from: Durwood on January 22, 2015, 05:52:17 AM
Eric, 32oz puts the oil level right at the bottom of the plates on my bike and several others I service, If you go by the SM spec, the plates are swimming in fluid, at least from my experience.
I am with Baker on this, that the added capacity was an attempt to get oil on the comp, but that's just a guess.
Short of submerging the bitch, that extra oil wouldn't have any added effect to oiling the comp. Only collected and directed oil to a specific area works. All random oil that gets splashed onto the comp just flings off and the core remains unlubed.
Ron
I agree completely and will add that on high HP hard ridden pre 05 comps the same problems show up, not so much on the ramps but between the sprocket shaft extension and the sprocket. You just can't get the oil inside a spinning sprocket by flinging it with the chain.
I haven't seen the problems with the early comps, no complaints, never replaced one, other than a sprocket for gear ratio change.
:nix:
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Quote from: N-gin on January 22, 2015, 03:08:25 AM
Yes the SE has a glued plastic ramp in the cover, but it provides a fresh dose of circulated oil directly inside the comp. Even if the plastic tray falls off the primary, how much damage u think it could do. Most likely find a place in the corner of the primary and stay there.
I have seen pictures of tensioners broken off and eaten up by the primary chain, as well as compensator spring pack covers. That tiny little piece of plastic will just get eaten a live and spit out if it falls off. You will find plastic shavings in the primary oil when doing maintenance.
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
So what is wrong with Harleys design of drilling holes in the collar for more adequate lubrication?
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
So what is wrong with Harleys design of drilling holes in the collar for more adequate lubrication?
Nothing, they can drill to their hearts content, it wont take away the fact that the amount of travel of the lobes before they make contact is the reason it is beating the crap out of the sprocket. Lube away.
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
So what is wrong with Harleys design of drilling holes in the collar for more adequate lubrication?
Nothing, they can drill to their hearts content, it wont take away the fact that the amount of travel of the lobes before they make contact is the reason it is beating the crap out of the sprocket. Lube away.
You do realize the cam and spokes remain in contact on any steady state acel and decel loads right? They are constantly ramping up and down with torque pulses but don't come back to the neutral center. Lack of lube at the spokes coupled with constant ramping is what causes the wear. The slight chatter that occurs during transitioning or from a poorly tune idle rpm has no bearing on the wear as it's at minimum spring pressure of what the preload would be on assembly.
Ron
Maybe we should just build these 07-up engines with early style flywheels and install the old comp then. :chop:
I am not going to claim that I know much about the design but isn't that what the holes in the collar are for? To provide more lubrication to the ramps more directly to splash or fling lubrication to the springs and spokes?
Quote from: rbabos on January 22, 2015, 12:33:13 PM
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 11:01:08 AM
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
So what is wrong with Harleys design of drilling holes in the collar for more adequate lubrication?
Nothing, they can drill to their hearts content, it wont take away the fact that the amount of travel of the lobes before they make contact is the reason it is beating the crap out of the sprocket. Lube away.
You do realize the cam and spokes remain in contact on any steady state acel and decel loads right? They are constantly ramping up and down with torque pulses but don't come back to the neutral center. Lack of lube at the spokes coupled with constant ramping is what causes the wear. The slight chatter that occurs during transitioning or from a poorly tune idle rpm has no bearing on the wear as it's at minimum spring pressure of what the preload would be on assembly.
Ron
Wonder why the new design is working. :scratch: :teeth:
Quote from: 06roadglide on January 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Maybe we should just build these 07-up engines with early style flywheels and install the old comp then. :chop:
I agree. I have a 2001 FLTR and I am proud to say that I don't even know what a bad compensator sounds like.
For me, the compensator is nothing more than a harmonic balancer, maybe it's time for something that is gel filled?
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: 06roadglide on January 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Maybe we should just build these 07-up engines with early style flywheels and install the old comp then. :chop:
I agree. I have a 2001 FLTR and I am proud to say that I don't even know what a bad compensator sounds like.
For me, the compensator is nothing more than a harmonic balancer, maybe it's time for something that is gel filled?
Nope, comp is not a harmonic balancer. It's a shock absorbing device.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 22, 2015, 02:09:14 PM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: 06roadglide on January 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Maybe we should just build these 07-up engines with early style flywheels and install the old comp then. :chop:
I agree. I have a 2001 FLTR and I am proud to say that I don't even know what a bad compensator sounds like.
For me, the compensator is nothing more than a harmonic balancer, maybe it's time for something that is gel filled?
Nope, comp is not a harmonic balancer. It's a shock absorbing device.
Ron
[emoji19] sorry for missing speaking.
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 22, 2015, 02:09:14 PM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on January 22, 2015, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: 06roadglide on January 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Maybe we should just build these 07-up engines with early style flywheels and install the old comp then. :chop:
I agree. I have a 2001 FLTR and I am proud to say that I don't even know what a bad compensator sounds like.
For me, the compensator is nothing more than a harmonic balancer, maybe it's time for something that is gel filled?
Nope, comp is not a harmonic balancer. It's a shock absorbing device.
Ron
[emoji19] sorry for missing speaking.
No apology needed. I could have worded it in a better form but was in a hurry to be somewhere. :wink:
Ron
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
I can understand the idea and it makes sense to bring things in closer. I'm pretty sure the baker is better design then the previous SE design. I just don't see how the lubrication gets there to begine with..without having a pic of the backside of the baker design it really up to our imagination...
For all we know it could be a sealed unit....
What do you guys think about having a sealed design comp that has its own oil that is serviceable???
:baby:
And there you have it! A fluid dampener/compensator
The mention of a harmonic balancer reminded me of something from years ago when 90% of the Harleys on the road where shovels.
Does anybody remember these things??
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo51/jmorton10_photo/balancer_zps8b758599.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/jmorton10_photo/media/balancer_zps8b758599.jpg.html)
The things totally eliminated the compensator & where supposed to dramatically smooth out your whole drivetrain. I bought 2 of them through the shop I was 1/2 owner of at the time just to see if the claims where total B.S. or not. I don't remember what our dealer cost was on them at the time, but I do remember thinking the price was outrageous.
We installed them on 2 hot-rod stroker motor rigid frame shovels that would shake your teeth loose with all the vibration back then trying to come up with worst case examples just to see if they made any difference at all. One of the bikes was owned by a local HA member (my business partner) who was out of town & left his bike with me. His bike was one of the bikes that might benefit the most from something like this.
The 2 balancers had been on order for months & had coincidentally just happened to come in the same day he was flying off on a 2 week trip all over Europe. He looked the part over briefly (they where beautifully made) & then told me to install it on his bike & ride the hell out of it until he got back.
I installed that one for him, & the other went into a bike my business partner had just finished building for a customer that was a 101" shovel with a custom turbocharger setup. We both noticed the difference immediately, but a lot of that was just getting used to the more immediate hookup from a standing start without the compensator cushioning the primary chain.
We both noticed a very slight reduction in vibration, but nowhere near what the manufacturer was claiming at the time & we both decided rather quickly that they weren't worth the money (I can't remember who made the things, but I remember the MSRP at the time was over $400.)
We ended up reselling the one from my partners bike at a substantial discount to one of our loyal customers. He was still running it years later, but his bike was ridden very little (one year he only put 400 miles on it) so the part wasn't given much of a test.
The other bike was in a very serious accident shortly after this part was installed and never ridden again, so neither balancer really got the kind of long extended use that we had originally planned for.
Does anybody remember who made these things??
~John
Fisher Damper
http://www.mcadvantages.com/fisher-harmonic-balancer-damper-big-twin-24-tooth--offset-9193_p_-1,1043,62,1031_23621.cfm (http://www.mcadvantages.com/fisher-harmonic-balancer-damper-big-twin-24-tooth--offset-9193_p_-1,1043,62,1031_23621.cfm)
In a nutshell the Fisher damper didn't do squat. Many still floating around the country NIB. Short stroke high rpm engines might get more benifit from this device more so then a thumper.
Ron
I remember them, that was a long time ago. I think it was Fisher Concepts. I didn't ever try them, cost as you stated, and I didn't see where it could take the vibration away.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 23, 2015, 05:34:42 AM
I remember them, that was a long time ago. I think it was Fisher Concepts. I didn't ever try them, cost as you stated, and I didn't see where it could take the vibration away.
:hyst: The one good thing about aging is one develops a mental skill to speperate BS from facts. Like you said regarding vibration, it cannot alter the 60% crank balance in any way shape or form. Torsional damping is also extremely small, given the range needed for an uneven firing v twin. I passed on it also back in the day.
Ron
Sorry guys, but it's been a long week at work...I just noticed that it's ramp-to-ramp. Not ramp-to-spoke like the SE. So, this must be one of the theories about why it's better than the SE. Namely, ramp-to-ramp makes a better comp than ramp-to-spoke. It's a lot more like the old comp. Am I getting warm?
Quote from: les on January 23, 2015, 05:18:08 PM
Sorry guys, but it's been a long week at work...I just noticed that it's ramp-to-ramp. Not ramp-to-spoke like the SE. So, this must be one of the theories about why it's better than the SE. Namely, ramp-to-ramp makes a better comp than ramp-to-spoke. It's a lot more like the old comp. Am I getting warm?
You'd be splitting hairs. :scratch: The spoke in effect offers the same effect due to the profile as ramp to ramp but ramping is shallower to increase rotation. This extra rotation coupled with the progressive spring pack the rate of cushioning increases as load is increased and carries further up with engine loading. A single stage spring cannot do that unless it's off a front end of a 57 Buick or something. :hyst: The first 07 comps were ramp to ramp as well. The cam having one set the sprocket internal section had the other ramps. That however was not the reason it was such a failure as far as comps go. Way too weak of a spring pack was the big one with no room to increase it's pressure and maintain a decent level of rotation for dampening the shock loads. The small series stacked spring discs were one pressure only and the comp bottomed too soon under load. It then decided to beat the piss out of the splines on the extension shaft/ cam contact points.
Compensators come in many shapes and forms not just harleys and seem to be a necessary evil most times. If you can get it to do the intended task effectively and not fall apart, then you have the holy grail.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 23, 2015, 04:56:07 AM
In a nutshell the Fisher damper didn't do squat. Many still floating around the country NIB. Short stroke high rpm engines might get more benifit from this device more so then a thumper.
Ron
I have one for a 2001 still NIB.. Nobody wants it :( It was only $250. tho..
I asked this in another thread but it doesn't seem to have the traffic this one has. All this comp talk got me wondering. How come more guys don't go with an enclosed belt set up like the BDL? If you throw a comp at it every 10,000-15,000 miles the price point really isn't a factor anymore I wouldn't think.
Ive been emailing baker back and forth.
One of his dealers has it on a 140 tq engine right now. The guy testing it is not easy. He goes on to say 90 mph shifts from 5th to 4th, and wheelies.He also says the same guy can get a brand new SE to rattle before he leaves the parking lot. As for the Baker he cant get any noise from it.
Its looking good for the Baker.
Correct me if im wrong, if you install a BDL how is it different from going to an EVO sproket as far as dampening the engine pulses. Wouldn6 you get more vibration with BDL then a compensator.
Quote from: N-gin on January 24, 2015, 02:14:07 AM
Correct me if im wrong, if you install a BDL how is it different from going to an EVO sproket as far as dampening the engine pulses. Wouldn6 you get more vibration with BDL then a compensator.
There would be no difference. There is absolutely no help from the belt regarding cushioning. Claims otherwise are bs. If there was it would be jumping teeth from stretch at high loads. On your other post with the 140 torque. This has no bearing on comp life. Long term rubbing of the parts at mid torque kills them. High torques the unit compresses the springs and there's little movement within the comp. If the springs bottom at 80-100 as an example the 140 isn't moving the innards any more and is direct drive.
Ron
Quote from: Mark P on January 22, 2015, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: les on January 22, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
I hope I didn't miss it in this thread, as it is a bit long. Can someone explain exactly what Baker is attempting to do with their comp? In other words, if I study the H-D tech paper on the 2014 SE comp, I can see exactly how they are trying to lubricate the bearing journal and spokes. Also, how they made parts larger for better wear. It would be nice to see the same drawing breakdown of the Baker comp.
I just can seem to understand from the pictures what the Baker design is all about.
Don't remember if it was this thread or the other but I will give you the short version of the story. 2 kids are on a merry-go-round one in the middle and one on the outside. No matter how fast you spin the merry-go-round the kid on the outside will always be going faster then the kid in the middle. Harley is the kid on the outside, Baker is the kid in the middle. We pulled the lobes in closer together like on the 5 speed comp.
You're alluding to the aspect of oil being flung from the contact surfaces, right?
Let's make the other comparison and put those kids on the merry-go-round to work. We'll put openings in the platform so they can get traction against the ground below. Then let's tie a long rope to the perimeter of the platform and on the other end of the outstretched rope tie a piece of plywood loaded with something. Which kid will have an easier time with their interface between the ground and the platform while winding the rope around the merry-go-round? How will they perceive (sudden?) changes in the load resulting from varying terrain along the drag path? Or cyclic changes as subsequent vertical poles pick up the rope?
The way I see it, to be able to the drag the load any given distance, especially so in the same amount of time, the kid in the middle will generally be exerting more effort. This would be true whether he was trying to make the platform move in relation to a stationary surface or trying to match the platform with a moving surface below. He will require greater traction to be sure, and over time both the ground and his shoes will certainly break up long before the "outer" kid's'.
There's no arguing that the Baker piece doesn't look nice and/or well-made.
I feel that any notion the H-D engineers haphazardly moved away from the general design might be a little naive. They may well had something particular in mind; or other new constraints. One thing's for sure: with the ramped interfaces being closer to the (now larger) sprocket pitch diameter, they should be having an easier job than ones closer to the rotating axis. And the clamping pressures should have different requirements (in line with a "new constraint" - threads inside the shaft instead of outside?).
Can a unit be sufficient for 150 ft-lb (ab)use yet supple enough for prolonged 15 ft-lb use? Is this, or any, one?
What's the comparison regarding assembly weight?
Leverage with the larger engine sprocket would be higher. This may be why HD decided to redesign the compensator, feeling the older style would need a much stronger spring to handle the torque.
Still waiting on a response about feasibility of fewer teeth... :pop:
I am excited for this. Whether you need it or not it is always better to have more feasible options out there :chop:
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
Brilliant! Agree. Would also like to know like you how many springs they used on the comp cover. In an earlier post, (unrelated), We speculated about adding one and I did to my '02 Softail and it made a world of difference. Great IMHO for high performance applications. A little radical at low speed/gear with huge cams, and final of 3.48. Tightened up and quieted down the whole assembly which is what I wanted.
The holes in the comp sprocket lowers rotational mass which has got to lighten the hit to the assembly under hard acceleration(?)
Quote from: Velocity1 on January 25, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
Brilliant! Agree. Would also like to know like you how many springs they used on the comp cover. In an earlier post, (unrelated), We speculated about adding one and I did to my '02 Softail and it made a world of difference. Great IMHO for high performance applications. A little radical at low speed/gear with huge cams, and final of 3.48. Tightened up and quieted down the whole assembly which is what I wanted.
I added an extra spring to my current SE comp as well, had plenty of spares from the other three comps I had went through. I need to call and gt on this waiting list!
JK-Are the pics of the destroyed Baker comp going to be posted ??? :duel:
I would like to see the after pics of the ramps and spring pack..better yet a video of how the comp is being abused..
BAGGERVATED: http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w (http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w)
Thinking of getting on that waiting list....
Quote from: N-gin on January 26, 2015, 06:58:56 AM
JK-Are the pics of the destroyed Baker comp going to be posted ??? :duel:
I would like to see the after pics of the ramps and spring pack..better yet a video of how the comp is being abused..
BAGGERVATED: http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w (http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w)
Thinking of getting on that waiting list....
Wonder why they didn't use one of their goofy 2-1 pipes. Absolute power killers. But a cool video.
Quote from: N-gin on January 26, 2015, 06:58:56 AM
JK-Are the pics of the destroyed Baker comp going to be posted ??? :duel:
I would like to see the after pics of the ramps and spring pack..better yet a video of how the comp is being abused..
BAGGERVATED: http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w (http://youtu.be/8rIJbeSfS5w)
Thinking of getting on that waiting list....
I may be able to make that happen.
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Did I miss something? Was there a Baker failure?
Quote from: HighLiner on January 26, 2015, 10:23:04 AM
Did I miss something? Was there a Baker failure?
What you missed is the J/K before his statement which means "Just Kidding".
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:29:51 AM
Quote from: HighLiner on January 26, 2015, 10:23:04 AM
Did I miss something? Was there a Baker failure?
What you missed is the J/K before his statement which means "Just Kidding".
Got ya! :emoGroan:
Yes that is correct...
all in all it appears to have less parts than the SE. So thats one up n the SE, less to go wrong.
i have already seen a video of someone putting in a new SE with the oiler and some tray/extra oil er under the chain and it still is noisy after some abuse. Not my video or a posted one on youtube so its not up to me to share.
The SE has a progressive triple spring setup, providing lots of travel. How is Baker addressing this? It does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
Quote from: les on January 26, 2015, 12:23:05 PM
The SE has a progressive triple spring setup, providing lots of travel. How is Baker addressing this? It does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
Worked all right on the 5 speed.
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
Quote from: les on January 26, 2015, 12:23:05 PM
The SE has a progressive triple spring setup, providing lots of travel. How is Baker addressing this? It does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
Worked all right on the 5 speed.
I've some friends with 124" engines that said the SE comp (when they changed to it) offered them the spring travel they were looking for. They feel the older comp didn't provide enough.
QuoteIt does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
I've not yet seen pix or a parts breakdown to indicate what type of springs and how many are in the comp.
It's a wait and see.
I pre-ordered one for stock today. I have confidence in Baker that it will be a good product.
I have the latest SE compensator with my 124. The mech told me that the after market primary cover had the ribs just like the plastic pieces shipped with compensator. :wtf: I do not see any type of plastic oiler used with the Baker!! Have 250miles and its noisy. Have Amsol primary fluid. IF ONLY they would have come out with this a few weeks early!!
Quote from: Templer on January 26, 2015, 02:47:17 PM
I have the latest SE compensator with my 124. The mech told me that the after market primary cover had the ribs just like the plastic pieces shipped with compensator. :wtf: I do not see any type of plastic oiler used with the Baker!! Have 250miles and its noisy. Have Amsol primary fluid. IF ONLY they would have come out with this a few weeks early!!
deleted
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
send me one Mark...I'll put it thru the paces in my 124. :wink:
This would be a good test to see if it will hold up to what my 124 will dish out. If it holds it's 151/151...I'd say it's good to go for most people then.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
send me one Mark...I'll put it thru the paces in my 124. :wink:
This would be a good test to see if it will hold up to what my 124 will dish out. If it holds it's 151/151...I'd say it's good to go for most people then.
Ray
Did you break the one you have now?
Ron
nope...not yet.
I was just offering to test one for them.
As you know Ron...my bike seems to go thru the SE comps fairly quickly.
I'm on my fourth comp in less than 20K.
So far this last comp you and Richard sent me hasn't made a peep :up: ....and it's got close to two thousand miles on it before winter hit.
I've noticed that they normally start to rattle and then start clunking on shut down between 2- 4K miles on each new comp I've put in my bike.
I don't know what Bert has his new comp in out there testing it for him...but I just figured my 124 would be a good test mule for his comp to see if it would hold up to my mildly built motor. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
nope...not yet.
I was just offering to test one for them.
As you know Ron...my bike seems to go thru the SE comps fairly quickly.
I'm on my fourth comp in less than 20K.
So far this last comp you and Richard sent me hasn't made a peep :up: ....and it's got close to two thousand miles on it before winter hit.
I've noticed that they normally start to rattle and then start clunking on shut down between 2- 4K miles on each new comp I've put in my bike.
I don't know what Bert has his new comp in out there testing it for him...but I just figured my 124 would be a good test mule for his comp to see if it would hold up to my mildly built motor. :nix:
Ray
Not only the Bike you have to test it on...... but the TRUST we have in you on testing it to the Fullest....
Maybe you'll get one... MANY BUYERS Here would Like That... signed....BUBBIE
So the consensus is the pre 07 comp is fine. What I would ask is/was there any issues with the older design when high HP/TQ was introduced or added stroke? If there was no major issues with the older comps regardless of the displacement or stroke wouldn't this Baker unit do fine due to it being similar in design? Dont know the spring pressure yet but what if it is the same as the older comps.
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
Quote from: les on January 26, 2015, 12:23:05 PM
The SE has a progressive triple spring setup, providing lots of travel. How is Baker addressing this? It does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
Worked all right on the 5 speed.
Didn't the 5 speed have diffent final gear ratio that was more easy on the comp. Let's not forget the engines were smaller also.
The only thing I see is happening is the bolt breaking and or stripping in the crank.. The springs will just colaps till they bottom out. Then all the stress is on the bolt. At least that's what I see.
Quote from: FSG on January 26, 2015, 02:43:37 PM
QuoteIt does not seem like the spring inside the Baker cover can provide as much travel.
I've not yet seen pix or a parts breakdown to indicate what type of springs and how many are in the comp.
It's a wait and see.
You just said what others are thinking. Without a parts breakdown to get a better idea. We are in the dark and are limited to what Baker wants us to see. For all we know it could just be a lighter design of the older comp. I'm guessing its not like that though.
Were the older flywheels heavier?
Just a thought but if the new cranks are lighter would that put more stress on the compersator?
I'm waiting to fill in the blanks. :teeth:
(http://i.imgur.com/rs3Q4Ai.png)
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
nope...not yet.
I was just offering to test one for them.
As you know Ron...my bike seems to go thru the SE comps fairly quickly.
I'm on my fourth comp in less than 20K.
So far this last comp you and Richard sent me hasn't made a peep :up: ....and it's got close to two thousand miles on it before winter hit.
I've noticed that they normally start to rattle and then start clunking on shut down between 2- 4K miles on each new comp I've put in my bike.
I don't know what Bert has his new comp in out there testing it for him...but I just figured my 124 would be a good test mule for his comp to see if it would hold up to my mildly built motor. :nix:
Ray
Well, let's take a look at your situation. First off a shutdown clunk is somewhat designed into the comp and even new it wouldn't be unheard of. This is what happens to cause that.
When an engine is shut off, just as it stops once cly will hit compression. The higher the compression, the longer the stroke, the more effect it has. When the engine stops this cyl on compression rebounds causing the engine to rotate backwards slightly. Normal so far. Next thing that happens is due to the mass and inertia of the chain and clutch hub the stored energy is still trying to rotate forwards. This combination of the two directions causes the cam in the comp to hit the decel ramp of the comp load the spring and if the oil is thin this spring loaded decel ramp will rebound back to the accel ramp. The result of this is the clunk heard at shutdown. Don't know if you are running the PEEK or not but that reduces the rebound effect to the point it can barely be heard.
Second noise maker is an erratic idle, again remember the clutch basket inertia. The engine is running smooth with the odd hickup, common to many cammed builds with high compression. When the engine hickups the basket inertia keeps the forward rotation going but during the hickup the engine slowed. This causes the cam to rotate to the low point then when it catches up to the engine load again it smacks the accel ramp. Once again the PEEK reduces this rotational gyration.
Both conditions are amplified by excessive wear on the spokes which I've not seen in your pics. Second reason is the preload is too small and the normal bedding of the spokes (break in) of about 1/32" has place the comp into a premature worn out condition, exhibiting larger spoke wear then there really is.
After 4 comps in a seriously short time, I've be doing some serious measuring to find out what's causing this. Sounds like the preload is lost, right at the time spoke bedding occurs with minimal preload left. By bedding, I mean when all three are showing good solid contact points. While your engine is beefy, this makes no difference. Any 103 will bottom the comp just as easily and bottom is bottom and the comp is solid. There is no extra pressure on the cam and spokes at that point. I could see it if the spring pack can support 200'lbs and the ramps are exposed to this 150 torque but the spring pack bottoms in the 100'lbs area on the SE. See what I'm saying? If you want to test wear on a comp, have the load subjecting the ramps to 80'lbs on a constant basis. Slamming the throttle to WFO only briefly exposes the comp to this wear load and once solid there's no additonal wear. Hope this clears up a few things. By the way, one forum member has 18k on the SE with oiler and 15 of that was run with ATF :sick:. It's still working ok. He can comment if he chooses.
Ron
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
send me one Mark...I'll put it thru the paces in my 124. :wink:
This would be a good test to see if it will hold up to what my 124 will dish out. If it holds it's 151/151...I'd say it's good to go for most people then.
Ray
Sorry Ray all the pre-production comps have been sent out for testing. To answer the ongoing question of springs, they are belleville springs in our new cup, again similar to the 5 speed.
Quote from: Mark P on January 27, 2015, 07:04:37 AM
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
send me one Mark...I'll put it thru the paces in my 124. :wink:
This would be a good test to see if it will hold up to what my 124 will dish out. If it holds it's 151/151...I'd say it's good to go for most people then.
Ray
Sorry Ray all the pre-production comps have been sent out for testing. To answer the ongoing question of springs, they are belleville springs in our new cup, again similar to the 5 speed.
Sweet, now is there any more updates on a release date? Next month is approaching very quickly!
Quote from: hdrolling on January 27, 2015, 07:10:45 AM
Quote from: Mark P on January 27, 2015, 07:04:37 AM
Quote from: No Cents on January 26, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mark P on January 26, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on January 26, 2015, 09:53:41 AM
Nothing like taking something to the breaking point to find the weak link. Curious how the comp will fair under low oil conditions that you said you will be testing. Having a Bandit clutch this interests me.
Me too.
send me one Mark...I'll put it thru the paces in my 124. :wink:
This would be a good test to see if it will hold up to what my 124 will dish out. If it holds it's 151/151...I'd say it's good to go for most people then.
Ray
Sorry Ray all the pre-production comps have been sent out for testing. To answer the ongoing question of springs, they are belleville springs in our new cup, again similar to the 5 speed.
Sweet, now is there any more updates on a release date? Next month is approaching very quickly!
Not going to make next month, the motor extension needs to be broached and the machine shop that does our broaching is 10 weeks out. Unless somebody has a gear shaper we can borrow.
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
Sorry, our machine shop is set up for R&D not production so we have to rely on machine shops here in Michigan so we are kind of at their mercy. It is a benefit to us for quality control to have all these local places though. They have done a very good job for us over the years and we are not going jeopardize these relationships just cut a few weeks off a lead time.Hang in there a lot of the time we end up getting things faster then what they initially tell us.
Are you still going to post current condition of the comp? Would be nice to see how it is holding up so far. Might even give you guys expected out come...
Do we know what the spring rate is on the comp yet? It been asked.
I'll continue to supply updates, as for the spring rate, don't know, that's a Bert question. When I see him again I'll ask.
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
a 14 primary cover will fit a 10 no problem right..if the baker is going to be that long i will have too be forced to go the se route and would rather not glue some thing To the inside of my primary
marc
I didn't have a problem. I actually bought a new take off from somebody that went all black.
Quote from: calif phil on January 26, 2015, 02:45:39 PM
I pre-ordered one for stock today. I have confidence in Baker that it will be a good product.
:up: :up:
Quote from: MarcV125 on January 28, 2015, 02:42:48 AM
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
a 14 primary cover will fit a 10 no problem right..if the baker is going to be that long i will have too be forced to go the se route and would rather not glue some thing To the inside of my primary
marc
That epoxy is some crazy stuff, I doubt you would ever worry about coming loose. As Steve at GMR tested that the plastic ripped in half before the epoxy gave way.
This morning I came to the conclusion the weird noise I hear when I get to work in the mornings is the compensator.
I've been hearing it for a couple months, but hadn't really thought much about it. Last 2 miles of my commute is up a rather steep hill with lazy curves. By the time I get to the top the bike always sounds different (and louder) because the pressure in my ears changes from the quick altitude change. Leaning the bike over to the right as I ride around our loop road really makes it noticeable.
The other hint was a guy walking through the parking lot when I rolled by who asked what that metallic clattering sound was...
I guess I'll pre-order a Baker comp. Heck maybe I'll even ask again about a fewer tooth option. ;-)
Quote from: rageglide on January 28, 2015, 02:16:17 PM
The other hint was a guy walking through the parking lot when I rolled by who asked what that metallic clattering sound was...
Didn't he recognize you were riding a Harley? :wink:
Rick
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 28, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
Quote from: MarcV125 on January 28, 2015, 02:42:48 AM
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
a 14 primary cover will fit a 10 no problem right..if the baker is going to be that long i will have too be forced to go the se route and would rather not glue some thing To the inside of my primary
marc
That epoxy is some crazy stuff, I doubt you would ever worry about coming loose. As Steve at GMR tested that the plastic ripped in half before the epoxy gave way.
Oh great, the plastic ripped in half!!
Quote from: Eglider05 on January 28, 2015, 03:15:04 PM
Didn't he recognize you were riding a Harley? :wink:
Rick
:hyst:
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 28, 2015, 03:21:13 PM
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 28, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
Quote from: MarcV125 on January 28, 2015, 02:42:48 AM
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
a 14 primary cover will fit a 10 no problem right..if the baker is going to be that long i will have too be forced to go the se route and would rather not glue some thing To the inside of my primary
marc
That epoxy is some crazy stuff, I doubt you would ever worry about coming loose. As Steve at GMR tested that the plastic ripped in half before the epoxy gave way.
Oh great, the plastic ripped in half!!
I don't understand why that bothers you, yet you are fine with the chain tensioners and the plastic cage for the main drive gear bearing in the trans. :scratch: The tray just sits there looking dumb.
:pop:
Quote from: joe_lyons on January 28, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
Quote from: MarcV125 on January 28, 2015, 02:42:48 AM
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2015, 06:58:08 PM
Quote from: bensfatboy on January 27, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
So now not going to go to market with it end of February, and 10 weeks lead time for broaching will probably put it at least April. Bummer!! I was trying to hold out til end of February as I'm pretty sure my comp is about to take a dump and I need to replace it before it does. I hate to, but looks like I'm forced into the latest and greatest HD crap. Hate to have plastic and glue in my primary. Upsets my stomach thinking about it.
The '14-up primary covers have the oil deflector cast into it.
a 14 primary cover will fit a 10 no problem right..if the baker is going to be that long i will have too be forced to go the se route and would rather not glue some thing To the inside of my primary
marc
That epoxy is some crazy stuff, I doubt you would ever worry about coming loose. As Steve at GMR tested that the plastic ripped in half before the epoxy gave way.
alright joe thx.
One more question, Ive had the dealer replace my comps the previous times mainly because of time, but anyways i have the previous SE comp, not the newest style. I have a 2010 Street glide so i assume it has the correct style rotor now?.. meaning i should be able to purchase 42200064a instead of having to purchase the complete assembly 40100061..I know the 2010's had the previous style rotor originally but when i installed the "older" se comp it should have the new style rotor now? ..
thx again
marc
Your good
zzzZzZzZZZZZZzz. Phßssssss
ZzzzzZZZZZZZphhooooo
Zzzzzzzzz
No update?
I gave up on them. Went with the latest SE Comp and backing that up with the GMR CompenSaver.
Let us know how everything goes
So I've been thinking about this comp sht. First let me say I still have the stock comp and all I experience is a knock at startup. Been there ever since it was new. Its just a lot louder now probably due to the added performance enhancements with added compression. At any rate I was thinking about changing it for added cushion for the crank. Also I'll point out that the engine feels like it has more vibration, maybe comp related.
Anyways, if the compensator was designed to absorb impact then if you're to beat the hell out of it it really doesn't matter. it would just bottom out the spring rate and act like a direct drive. Maybe this new compensator should be operated within the spring rate to really put it through the test. So with that being said do I really need a compensator? Do I need more spring rate? Maybe the new Baker design is designed so that it would absorb more startup forces but collapse under any engine load.I do like that it has dual ramps instead of just one maybe to collapse to spring sooner. so if the Screaming Eagle compensator has more travel then I would say that it would create more noise more movement and more friction. what do you guys think?
:chop:
You will find the splines on the shaft extension are getting beaten up and that increased slack is adding to the noises.
These TC engines have a weak crank and it is longer making even more vulnerable than per 2007 this is to move the primary out allowing for the wider frame and rear tire. The MoCo tried a version of the old compensator and that was abandoned. They tried the stock comp in 2007 and has also been shown inadiquate. Find a 2007 and per-07 comp lay them side by side. Study the functionality and you will see about the same. Main difference the spring pak was moved to the inside to get the sprocket to align. Also the 07 has a bit more rotational cushioning.
Now consider the larger sprocket and no matter how you spin that topic the fact is it takes more torque to do the same job as the per-07. Thus the current version comp. You are correct that under a more seviere load the comp is locked in full rotation. The way I understand it, it's the
initial stock to the crank the comp cushions to reduce the shaft damage. The comp is also important in supplying a smoother general drive train operation. I have tried a soild sprocket and was to shakey a ride for my taste. I have noted my design concerns with the Baker comp. I have not had any response to them on any forum or when asked directly to Baker, just their talking points. So we don't know what they do I am on the per-order list and will find out like everyone. Fingers crossed they have a solid and reliable winner.
RichardK
The Moco needs to go back to the better crank and comp design (02 and back) :kick:
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 07, 2015, 08:14:44 AM
The Moco needs to go back to the better crank and comp design (02 and back) :kick:
No "Potty mouth"!! The only thing we should be worrying about is how well our backs are holding up putting the miles on!!!!! :chop:
Now that they moved the ramps closer to the center wouldnt a lighter spring pack do the same job?
What about oil. Baker doesnt seemed concerned with oil getting to the center. Is this due to a better machining and material and ramp to ramp design as opposed to spoke and ramp? There seems to be less interference points with this design. A need for less lubrication. Also the spring cup and outer ramp assy doesnt rotate as much. Less moving parts. Doest that equal less vibration due to limited movement and limited friction or more vibration due to less range of sprung motion. Sure hope testing is finished up soon.
Would be nice if we could hear from those testing these things as they work out the bugs if any.
Why is beta testing so hush hush? Wouldn't an open discussion be better considering the caliber of members here?
Bang on start up. I havnt had that since I went to the manual adjuster, Bandit clutch and a Timken S&S crank. Dont miss it either.
Quote from: Soft 02 on February 07, 2015, 09:00:02 AM
Now that they moved the ramps closer to the center wouldnt a lighter spring pack do the same job?
No. A heavier spring pack will be required to do the same job. This has already been mentioned in the thread.
Quote from: glens on February 07, 2015, 10:23:46 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on February 07, 2015, 09:00:02 AM
Now that they moved the ramps closer to the center wouldnt a lighter spring pack do the same job?
No. A heavier spring pack will be required to do the same job. This has already been mentioned in the thread.
Correct, and yes it has been mentioned. :wink:
Ron
I have been on the fence as to whether or not to keep the 08 Fat Bob I purchased. The bike only has 4 K miles on it and I thought I could try a late model bike as I like the idea of the 6 speed and overall look of the bike. However, after reading about all this crap I may just sell it for an 02 and back TC or late Evo powered bike. As mentioned in an earlier post.
"No "Potty mouth"!! The only thing we should be worrying about is how well our backs are holding up putting the miles on!!!!! :chop:"
I have to say it takes the enjoyment out of what should be a nice trouble free ride. We should not have to spend all this time and money to remedy a design flaw they know is defective. Hell, these late model Twin Cams sure make Shovelheads look very reliable :wink:
I just added up all the recipts of taking the original parts off and replacing with better aftermarket. :sick:
i could have bought another bike.
Oh well at least non of my chrome peices are plastic..oh wait im getting rid of the chrome too :emoGroan:
hell i should have just bought a frame then built it.
QuoteThe MoCo tried a version of the old compensator and that was abandoned.
Really, more details please.
I stopped by Baker Drivetrain's booth today at the Expo and talked with Mark P.
He showed me their new comp that they had on display and after talking to him for awhile he pulled out a box and showed me one of the prototype comps they had out for R&D testing. He said it had over 1000 hard dyno and street miles put on it.
The comp actually looked amazing with very little wear on the ramps and it was apparently getting plenty of oil to the internal parts. None of the parts were worn or discolored.
They might just be on to something here.
Ray
How much oil do we think the older style compensator needs? My shovelhead with sealed primary has original 220k mile compensator and only uses about 8 oz's of ATF in it. Personally I don't think lube is a big deal on the older style. New style with all the moving parts clearly needs a lot more.
My biggest concern with the Baker is the leverage the 34T sprocket has compared to an old style 24T design. Going to need a really strong spring in the Baker, and the older style has had issues with the cover failing under the spring pressure.
the cover had three dimple indentations if I recall holding in what looked to be bevel springs inside it. I held it in my hand a gave it a good going over. It didn't appear to have any issues...but this comp only had 1000 miles of testing on it.
I myself will be waiting now to see the results that we see from feedback with one used with a few more miles put on it...and hopefully something from a higher hp build too would be nice.
Ray
Good to hear Ray. As I wait for one to show up in a couple months.
But we do need a 2015 Expo thread started for us that could not go. Hint...Hint...
That spring cup looks to be quite thick.
(http://i.imgur.com/gqtvkRw.jpg)
That pic makes the cover look double the thickness of old style
Wish somebody would come up with a precision ground set of ramps along with a precise set of spokes to just add to the current 2014 comp. and it would be the "perfect comp." The main problem with the new OEM design is the casted parts.
:chop:
I have one of those precision ground comps. It was not an inexpensive process. We needed to know for sure how important that can be in the comp operation. It is the smoothest and quietest unit we have. Over the past few years I have been privileged to come to know some really talented experienced professionals in machining, casting, mechanical design and automotive mechanical engineering. From it we determined doing the work to really perfect the assembly after hardening is cost prohibitive. There are few design changes I would make in the shape of the cam ramps and spokes to improve function. For sure delete the groove in the spokes and balance it all. From what I have learned it would cost the MoCo about $30 a unit to make it on the mark right. That is with oil getting to everything. The MoCo instead increased the price $50, removed the rotor costing us a $100 more then the $50 for the glue. Just got to follow the money. Keep in mind with Indian coming on strong with a better built machine Harley will have no choice but look less at the bottom line and more at quality and reliability. For now we have what we have. For those wanting to keep OEM that is fixed for those wanting aftermarket Baker is giving it a good try. Can't wait to get one installed and check it out.
RichardK
Good post Richard.
Does anyone have a picture of what Indian uses at the end of the crank?
Pic of Indian comp, up to 2004
http://youtu.be/owNKlxIWATI (http://youtu.be/owNKlxIWATI)
Hell of a lot wider and bigger ramps.
http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s (http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s)
And why hasn't Harley gone to a machined crank. You could still have a inline design. Having bearings on the rods.
:nix:
Quote from: N-gin on February 08, 2015, 07:51:41 PM
http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s (http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s)
And why hasn't Harley gone to a machined crank. You could still have a inline design. Having bearings on the rods.
Have often wondered the same N-Gin !! surely it could be done ?? :nix: :scratch:
Quote from: fat103 on February 15, 2015, 07:43:11 PM
:nix:Quote from: N-gin on February 08, 2015, 07:51:41 PM
http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s (http://youtu.be/qa-uCh2KN_s)
And why hasn't Harley gone to a machined crank. You could still have a inline design. Having bearings on the rods.
Have often wondered the same N-Gin !! surely it could be done ?? :nix: :scratch:
Would have to offset the cylinders about 5/8 inch..
If they used a 4 bolt rear cap and a 2 bolt front cap they wouldnt. They could also machine the flywheels a tad thinner for more room.
Don't need to offset the cylinders.
This is a pretty big company and I'm willing to bet it won't be much more or possibly less money to start machining the cranks. The only added cost would be to retool or purchase new equipment.
I'm willing to bet even the average Harley-Davidson rider would spend an added 500 more for the bike just to have a more reliable crank. It would defiantly put an end to camplate oil pump damage. Not to mention the headache, time, and money to clean that crap out of the cases. Who knows even the compensator could have stronger spring pressure. Such a cool design engine with massive potential that relys on a danty, three piece, unreliable, most talked about, press fit crank.
I for one wouldn't have any problem spending 1600 on a machined crank if someone actually offered one. Hell more if it was CNC.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V2.020415.2.pdf (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V2.020415.2.pdf)
This is how Hall and Vincent did it in 1917. Liberty V-12
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
How do you figure the word "lateral" into the stress.. Axial or radial? One thing to note is that the bearing surface where the sprocket runs on is pretty wide. Mark showed be a system that had been beat on in a bike and inner bearing looked OK..
:chop:
I have reviewed this in picture form with 2 engineers and that was the term they both used "lateral". The bore of the sprocket is clearly not in line with the chain. No matter how you care to spin it when the chain applies pressure to the sprocket it will pull the sprocket from front to back causing a sideways stress to the bore. Here again a non answer to my question. Apprears I will have to wait and get one installed to find out first hand. A hand full of miles in a stop and go environment does not tell the story. It will need to be on a long days run day after day after day for many thousands of miles to know for sure. Soon as I get one I will put the highway miles on it. Don't get me wrong, I want this to be a winner and I have said that time and again. It does concern me when a simple and straight forward question is avoided.
RichardK
I know what you mean technically and agree. Due to the offset the bearing surface is loaded unevenly and stressed mainly at the edges (edge loading), if the lateral force is not sufficient. One shouldn't reuse the stock tensioner due to the risc of overtightening the chain. The setup cann't deal with that most likely.
Karl
Quote from: N-gin on February 15, 2015, 10:36:44 PM
If they used a 4 bolt rear cap and a 2 bolt front cap they wouldnt. They could also machine the flywheels a tad thinner for more room.
Don't need to offset the cylinders.
This is a pretty big company and I'm willing to bet it won't be much more or possibly less money to start machining the cranks. The only added cost would be to retool or purchase new equipment.
I'm willing to bet even the average Harley-Davidson rider would spend an added 500 more for the bike just to have a more reliable crank. It would defiantly put an end to camplate oil pump damage. Not to mention the headache, time, and money to clean that crap out of the cases. Who knows even the compensator could have stronger spring pressure. Such a cool design engine with massive potential that relys on a danty, three piece, unreliable, most talked about, press fit crank.
I for one wouldn't have any problem spending 1600 on a machined crank if someone actually offered one. Hell more if it was CNC.
I disagree, the average HD rider does not know the difference. They have no clue if the crank is made from steel or bazooka bubble gum.
HD could improve on a bunch of stuff. A one piece machined crank with plain bearings would be a start, offset the cylinders lightly, or they could also build the rod like they did on the old radial engines.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/ArticulatedConnectingRod.jpg/120px-ArticulatedConnectingRod.jpg)
also this compensator deal has be scratching my head. How does the import manufacturers handle it on their big twins? I know some are even firing which would help, but some were/are odd fire similar to HD.
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
As a very successful Supt. for commercial work I always ran things by the motto:
"If you think it is too expensive to do things right the first time, then do it wrong, tear it out, and see how much it costs the 2nd time."
I understand and have done value engineering on jobs. I still always lived by above.
Under warranty, I have the newest SE comp. in my '13 FLTRU. Have one of Steve's fixes for that waiting for warmer weather for an install.
I have a '09 FXDF that is banging on hot starts and will be watching very close how the Baker works out. I, for one hope proves to be another solution. It does frost my azz, and I am not talking about Baker here, that I will also need a new rotor for the fix on the '09.
Quote from: BJB on February 16, 2015, 12:57:31 PM
As a very successful Supt. for commercial work I always ran things by the motto:
"If you think it is too expensive to do things right the first time, then do it wrong, tear it out, and see how much it costs the 2nd time."
I understand and have done value engineering on jobs. I still always lived by above.
Under warranty, I have the newest SE comp. in my '13 FLTRU. Have one of Steve's fixes for that waiting for warmer weather for an install.
I have a '09 FXDF that is banging on hot starts and will be watching very close how the Baker works out. I, for one hope proves to be another solution. It does frost my azz, and I am not talking about Baker here, that I will also need a new rotor for the fix on the '09.
We actually tried the first prototype on a bike with the -07 style rotor with the spring cup. Because our spring cup is on the outside it really limited the amount of oil getting to the components. Sorry, we tried to avoid making folks buy a new rotor just no way around it.Harley does a lot of these one piece assemblies to save money on manufacturing cost. Cruise drive mainshafts anyone. :teeth:
Mark, what if that cup was machined off the -07 rotor?
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
QuoteI keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
:pop:
Ray
Come on Ray get with the program and stop stuffing up the quotes. :wink:
I'm laying low Gary :missed:
Ray
Quote from: FSG on February 16, 2015, 01:36:08 PM
Mark, what if that cup was machined off the -07 rotor?
Don't see any reason why that won't work as long as the wall thickness is the same on the out board portion of the rotor.
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 01:38:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
Because that's how many miles the person testing it was able to get in by the time the Cinci show rolled around. Had to have it at the show so the fine folks from HTT that go to the show could see it.
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 01:38:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
Because that's how many miles the person testing it was able to get in by the time the Cinci show rolled around. Had to have it at the show so the fine folks from HTT that go to the show could see it.
So there is only one prototype that's been run?
if this Baker comp doesn't fix the problems we all have been having...I'm giving up on running a comp all together.
I have this saved in my favorites and ready to buy for the comp fix.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on February 16, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
if this Baker comp doesn't fix the problems we all have been having...I'm giving up on running a comp all together.
I have this saved in my favorites and ready to buy for the comp fix.
[attach=0]
Ray
I call dibs on your Evo clutch basket
:up:
Quote from: No Cents on February 16, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
if this Baker comp doesn't fix the problems we all have been having...I'm giving up on running a comp all together.
I have this saved in my favorites and ready to buy for the comp fix.
[attach=0]
Ray
Seriously? Might as well weld the sprocket up then and a hell of a lot cheaper. A belt offers no (0) shock protection what so ever. If it did, the pitch would always be changing under load causing an effect like an over stretched chain for sprocket tooth engagement.
They do look cool but only a real compensator can do the job effectively if designed correctly.
Ron
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
Well, since you asked about 75% of the available engine torque should be held by the springs prior to bottoming out. By then the remaining 25% of the shock will have little effect. If it only can hole 25% the rotation will have too much of a running start and create an impact on the crank when it hits the wall in rotation.
Don't know what you have exactly for spring pack but lets say you have 4 discs in series as an example. Only one spring can be used to determine the pressure. All the 3 provide is more effective range in rotation. There will be no extra spring force from the additional 3 springs. This makes it none progressive as a system so to handle the 75% theoretical goal the springs need to be massive in the stack. When this is done the available rotational range is seriously reduced due to available room for spring compression. What happens then is they are too stiff to soften the cruise load impulses to give a smooth ride. As ugly as those SE spring packs are they seem to achieve the goals of my above explanation. The down side of achieving the ability to hold the 75% nominal torque is more pressure on the moving parts. More oil is needed to counter the natural wear that would happen. Light springs as in the past comps required less need for oil due to this lower level of friction on the cam/sprocket interface.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on February 16, 2015, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: No Cents on February 16, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
if this Baker comp doesn't fix the problems we all have been having...I'm giving up on running a comp all together.
I have this saved in my favorites and ready to buy for the comp fix.
[attach=0]
Ray
Seriously? Might as well weld the sprocket up then and a hell of a lot cheaper. A belt offers no (0) shock protection what so ever. If it did, the pitch would always be changing under load causing an effect like an over stretched chain for sprocket tooth engagement.
They do look cool but only a real compensator can do the job effectively if designed correctly.
Ron
Ron...yes seriously.
S&S is running the 3" Primo open primary on their Project Dragon 143. I seen it on the bike at the Expo and talked to them about it. They didn't seemed too concerned about not having a comp on that power plant.
I haven't gave up hope on running a comp yet...but this looks like my best option if my current comp bites the dust and this Baker comp isn't the cure.
I have a few friends that have ran open belt primaries for years...and none of them have had any issues running them.
Ray
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 01:38:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
I'm with Coyote on this one. 1000 miles isn't squat. I've been waiting on this for quite a long time. But, there's no way I can justify the cost on a product that's only seen duty for 1000 miles, especially a compensator. I'd rather wait for proven comp that will get the job done instead of tossing hundreds down the drain. Come on....tell us the real deal about this compensator. Is this going to fix the problem or is it just another guess? What about different gear ratios? I try not to bust on vendors but this one has been dragging out for too long with no real solid answers. Do we have a proven solution/product or just a guess?
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: BJB on February 16, 2015, 12:57:31 PM
As a very successful Supt. for commercial work I always ran things by the motto:
"If you think it is too expensive to do things right the first time, then do it wrong, tear it out, and see how much it costs the 2nd time."
I understand and have done value engineering on jobs. I still always lived by above.
Under warranty, I have the newest SE comp. in my '13 FLTRU. Have one of Steve's fixes for that waiting for warmer weather for an install.
I have a '09 FXDF that is banging on hot starts and will be watching very close how the Baker works out. I, for one hope proves to be another solution. It does frost my azz, and I am not talking about Baker here, that I will also need a new rotor for the fix on the '09.
We actually tried the first prototype on a bike with the -07 style rotor with the spring cup. Because our spring cup is on the outside it really limited the amount of oil getting to the components. Sorry, we tried to avoid making folks buy a new rotor just no way around it.Harley does a lot of these one piece assemblies to save money on manufacturing cost. Cruise drive mainshafts anyone. :teeth:
Time is on my side here. I'll wait and see. The fact is that I'd need a new rotor with either HD SE or Baker. If the Baker holds up I'd go that way.
This site is a wealth of good info for this old Limey rider.
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 02:22:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 01:38:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
Because that's how many miles the person testing it was able to get in by the time the Cinci show rolled around. Had to have it at the show so the fine folks from HTT that go to the show could see it.
So there is only one prototype that's been run?
Ah...no. The one that was in Cinci was the second prototype which is very similar to the 7 pre-production models that are currently being tested by 7 other individuals.Including one on this forum. Bet you'd like to know who...huh.
Mark of your 7 testers what is the most miles a comp has seen so far?
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 07:00:14 AM
Ah...no. The one that was in Cinci was the second prototype which is very similar to the 7 pre-production models that are currently being tested by 7 other individuals.Including one on this forum. Bet you'd like to know who...huh.
No, not really. Talking in circles this way, you're starting to sound like a salesman though. :wink:
Quote from: rbabos on February 16, 2015, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
Well, since you asked about 75% of the available engine torque should be held by the springs prior to bottoming out. By then the remaining 25% of the shock will have little effect. If it only can hole 25% the rotation will have too much of a running start and create an impact on the crank when it hits the wall in rotation.
Don't know what you have exactly for spring pack but lets say you have 4 discs in series as an example. Only one spring can be used to determine the pressure. All the 3 provide is more effective range in rotation. There will be no extra spring force from the additional 3 springs. This makes it none progressive as a system so to handle the 75% theoretical goal the springs need to be massive in the stack. When this is done the available rotational range is seriously reduced due to available room for spring compression. What happens then is they are too stiff to soften the cruise load impulses to give a smooth ride. As ugly as those SE spring packs are they seem to achieve the goals of my above explanation. The down side of achieving the ability to hold the 75% nominal torque is more pressure on the moving parts. More oil is needed to counter the natural wear that would happen. Light springs as in the past comps required less need for oil due to this lower level of friction on the cam/sprocket interface.
Ron
It the same spring pack as the 5 speed.
Quote from: 07heri on February 16, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 16, 2015, 01:38:07 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
I keep hearing this 1000 miles number. Is there a reason you don't have more miles on one than that? Hell I put 1000 miles on my bike in the first 3 weeks of Jan doing only weekend lunch rides. :nix:
I'm with Coyote on this one. 1000 miles isn't squat. I've been waiting on this for quite a long time. But, there's no way I can justify the cost on a product that's only seen duty for 1000 miles, especially a compensator. I'd rather wait for proven comp that will get the job done instead of tossing hundreds down the drain. Come on....tell us the real deal about this compensator. Is this going to fix the problem or is it just another guess? What about different gear ratios? I try not to bust on vendors but this one has been dragging out for too long with no real solid answers. Do we have a proven solution/product or just a guess?
As I just explained to Coyote this was the Second prototype that was 1000 miles in 2 weeks time both dyno and road. Dragging out too long? Bert didn't start working on it till November of last year. Let's see, you want it quick but you want it to be proven over time.
Quote from: Soft 02 on February 17, 2015, 07:07:29 AM
Mark of your 7 testers what is the most miles a comp has seen so far?
Good question, I'll see if I can find out.
:chop:
With Baker located up north I can only assume the test units are in the southern states, cold and all. Of the test bikes are any of them say a touring with maybe a side car or a trike with maybe a trailer. Are they loaded with say 2-300 pounds ballast along with the rider. Then say run from somewhere in southern California to El Paso and back say 3-4 times. That would be real world road testing. The long daily trip runs in that constant highway speed hour after hour. So are you at liberty to share anything specific on any of the testing. Not meaning to stir the pot, I am just a old gear head that likes to know how it all works and I happen to have a deep passion and love for these Harleys and a high respect for my fellow enthusiasts. We are all excited and anxious for this and that comes from our respect for Baker and the reputation they have build over the years.
RichardK
Quote from: Soft 02 on February 17, 2015, 07:07:29 AM
Mark of your 7 testers what is the most miles a comp has seen so far?
I have one confirmed report of 1380, I'll see if any of the rest have more.
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 16, 2015, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
Well, since you asked about 75% of the available engine torque should be held by the springs prior to bottoming out. By then the remaining 25% of the shock will have little effect. If it only can hole 25% the rotation will have too much of a running start and create an impact on the crank when it hits the wall in rotation.
Don't know what you have exactly for spring pack but lets say you have 4 discs in series as an example. Only one spring can be used to determine the pressure. All the 3 provide is more effective range in rotation. There will be no extra spring force from the additional 3 springs. This makes it none progressive as a system so to handle the 75% theoretical goal the springs need to be massive in the stack. When this is done the available rotational range is seriously reduced due to available room for spring compression. What happens then is they are too stiff to soften the cruise load impulses to give a smooth ride. As ugly as those SE spring packs are they seem to achieve the goals of my above explanation. The down side of achieving the ability to hold the 75% nominal torque is more pressure on the moving parts. More oil is needed to counter the natural wear that would happen. Light springs as in the past comps required less need for oil due to this lower level of friction on the cam/sprocket interface.
Ron
It the same spring pack as the 5 speed.
So the 5 speed spring pack combo with the 34 tooth? :scratch: That's all I needed to know.
Ron
QuoteLet's see, you want it quick but you want it to be proven over time.
Well... yeah. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on February 16, 2015, 02:24:46 PM
if this Baker comp doesn't fix the problems we all have been having...I'm giving up on running a comp all together.
I have this saved in my favorites and ready to buy for the comp fix.
[attach=0]
Ray
That is my plan as well. Just a different brand.
Quote from: rbabos on February 17, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
So the 5 speed spring pack combo with the 34 tooth? :scratch: That's all I needed to know.
Ron
You need to understand physics and Newton's turd law.
Quote from: rbabos on February 17, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 16, 2015, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
Quote from: Richard K on February 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
:chop:
Have a look at the attachment. Anyone been able to determine how the sprocket is supported at the chain. The offset if unsupported at the chain will subject the sprocket bore to tremendous lateral stress. The spring pressure on the sliding cam against the sprocket cam is inadequate to hold the load and maintain a true chain alignment. I have asked them and not gotten any response to it. Thought someone may have heard something on it.
RichardK
So how much spring pressure is on the sliding cam? If it is inadequate, what would be adequate. Oh yeah, and who did you ask? Put a 1000 very hard miles on the second version of the Baker comp and the only wear we are seeing is in the bottom of the lobes and zero naked eye evidence on the teeth of the sprocket or the extension shaft.
Well, since you asked about 75% of the available engine torque should be held by the springs prior to bottoming out. By then the remaining 25% of the shock will have little effect. If it only can hole 25% the rotation will have too much of a running start and create an impact on the crank when it hits the wall in rotation.
Don't know what you have exactly for spring pack but lets say you have 4 discs in series as an example. Only one spring can be used to determine the pressure. All the 3 provide is more effective range in rotation. There will be no extra spring force from the additional 3 springs. This makes it none progressive as a system so to handle the 75% theoretical goal the springs need to be massive in the stack. When this is done the available rotational range is seriously reduced due to available room for spring compression. What happens then is they are too stiff to soften the cruise load impulses to give a smooth ride. As ugly as those SE spring packs are they seem to achieve the goals of my above explanation. The down side of achieving the ability to hold the 75% nominal torque is more pressure on the moving parts. More oil is needed to counter the natural wear that would happen. Light springs as in the past comps required less need for oil due to this lower level of friction on the cam/sprocket interface.
Ron
It the same spring pack as the 5 speed.
So the 5 speed spring pack combo with the 34 tooth? :scratch: That's all I needed to know.
Ron
Been running 28 tooth in my Evo 9 years now. You seem like a smart fella, you do realize spring pressure can be adjusted per the overall all stack up , right?
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 08:03:55 AM
Been running 28 tooth in my Evo 9 years now. You seem like a smart fella, you do realize spring pressure can be adjusted per the overall all stack up , right?
Well from what I've seen diaphragm springs don't obey F = K x D. Its more like F = K.. So preload does not make any difference.. You need to change thickness, ID, OD to effect rate..
Are the comp springs in the original pack the same as a 5 speed? I compared the 2 awhile back, size and thickness were the same.
I do not know about spring force though.
Quote from: Max Headflow on February 17, 2015, 08:09:14 AM
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 08:03:55 AM
Been running 28 tooth in my Evo 9 years now. You seem like a smart fella, you do realize spring pressure can be adjusted per the overall all stack up , right?
Well from what I've seen diaphragm springs don't obey F = K x D. Its more like F = K.. So preload does not make any difference.. You need to change thickness, ID, OD to effect rate..
So maybe a larger spring cup. :wink:
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on February 17, 2015, 08:09:14 AM
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 08:03:55 AM
Been running 28 tooth in my Evo 9 years now. You seem like a smart fella, you do realize spring pressure can be adjusted per the overall all stack up , right?
Well from what I've seen diaphragm springs don't obey F = K x D. Its more like F = K.. So preload does not make any difference.. You need to change thickness, ID, OD to effect rate..
So maybe a larger spring cup. :wink:
http://www.haussermann.com/pub/pdf/en/tellerfeder.pdf (http://www.haussermann.com/pub/pdf/en/tellerfeder.pdf)
Clutch springs are what I was checking.. They seem to be degressive-horizontal-progressive..
Quote from: Max Headflow on February 17, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on February 17, 2015, 08:09:14 AM
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 08:03:55 AM
Been running 28 tooth in my Evo 9 years now. You seem like a smart fella, you do realize spring pressure can be adjusted per the overall all stack up , right?
Well from what I've seen diaphragm springs don't obey F = K x D. Its more like F = K.. So preload does not make any difference.. You need to change thickness, ID, OD to effect rate..
So maybe a larger spring cup. :wink:
http://www.haussermann.com/pub/pdf/en/tellerfeder.pdf (http://www.haussermann.com/pub/pdf/en/tellerfeder.pdf)
Clutch springs are what I was checking.. They seem to be degressive-horizontal-progressive..
Thanks Max,after reading that ,now have to go ask Bert why are springs are stacked the way they are. If I remember correct our are stack is like ) () ) which is not a parallel. Always something, guess it's it better to know the reasoning behind it though.
Quote from: Mark P on February 17, 2015, 11:18:37 AM
Thanks Max,after reading that ,now have to go ask Bert why are springs are stacked the way they are. If I remember correct our are stack is like ) () ) which is not a parallel. Always something, guess it's it better to know the reasoning behind it though.
The )) effectively doubles the rate of that spring and it is now a pair.. Stacking this way () halves the rate..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_springs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_springs)
Max
)()( gives you a single stage pressure and your post shows )()) which gives it a two stage pressure. )( will compress first, then the higher load will compress the )) stack last. Down side of any )) is it has less room to compress flat so the comp rotation will be less due to the start point and stop being shorter. The preload determines the start point and when all discs are flat, that's the stop point. The )()( or ()() stack only has the pressure of what one disc would need to flatten. There is some friction but for the sake of the explanation let's ignore that. The other three offer more compression range before bottoming out so the rotation in the comp is greater as a result.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on February 17, 2015, 12:13:41 PM
)()( gives you a single stage pressure and your post shows )()) which gives it a two stage pressure. )( will compress first, then the higher load will compress the )) stack last. Down side of any )) is it has less room to compress flat so the comp rotation will be less due to the start point and stop being shorter. The preload determines the start point and when all discs are flat, that's the stop point. The )()( or ()() stack only has the pressure of what one disc would need to flatten. There is some friction but for the sake of the explanation let's ignore that. The other three offer more compression range before bottoming out so the rotation in the comp is greater as a result.
Ron
I like it.
:idea:
Could the SE plates be purchased separately?
Quote from: N-gin on February 19, 2015, 09:42:03 PM
:idea:
Could the SE plates be purchased separately?
Don't think so. However there are a few million take offs floating around in peoples garages. :hyst: Plate thickness, stack height, preload and ramp angles all need to be taken into account for the overall package. Sounds like you have a plan. Care to share?
Ron
Does the Baker Kit come with a spring pack installed in the cup? I see no mention of any in their ads.
I wouldn't want to install used spring pack on a new comp, just asking. Buffalo
What about having bearings rolling over the ramps instead of spokes. Seems like that would work. Sort of like wheels going over bumps.
:chop:
Ball or roller bearings not necessary. Only if the MoCo would match machine the cam and spokes and get it well lubed lots gets better. That is about $12 each they will not spend.
RichardK
Quote from: rbabos on February 20, 2015, 05:25:28 AM
Quote from: N-gin on February 19, 2015, 09:42:03 PM
:idea:
Could the SE plates be purchased separately?
Don't think so. However there are a few million take offs floating around in peoples garages. :hyst: Plate thickness, stack height, preload and ramp angles all need to be taken into account for the overall package. Sounds like you have a plan. Care to share?
Ron
I was thinking for a split second maybe adding the smaller cup to the smaller stock in order to increase pressure. May lose some travel but it would be more progresive..however the more I think about it the less attractive it sounds. Having more moving parts and spoke to ramp kind of puts me off the idea of even trying anything to do with SE comp...come to think of it I have gotten rid of all my SE stuff and replaced it with other brands. I think I see a trend here.
I see that there are concerns that the drive sprocket being larger than the older models would create more leverage on the smaller diameter older ramp design. My question is does it really make a difference since in high gear the early and late trans/primary are both 1 to 1 final ratio to the tire. I don't see how that can change the actual torque at the crankshaft
Not sure why all the concern of this ramp design, it has been used for decades and has worked well. Do we really need to see 50 thousand miles before we accept that this is a simple fix to an ongoing problem with the MoCo comp. We have been putting big power to the old comps for years with almost no issues.
Quote from: BVHOG on February 22, 2015, 07:13:16 AM
My question is does it really make a difference since in high gear the early and late trans/primary are both 1 to 1 final ratio to the tire. I don't see how that can change the actual torque at the crankshaft
The trans is taken out of the equation in top gear, so it becomes a function of the primary ratio and the final (belt) ratio. 6-speeds don't turn the same engine RPM at 70 in top gear that the 5-speeds do, right?
Right, but does it make any difference since that torque is coming from the sprocket shaft. That shaft is only putting the same torque on that ramp it would take no matter what the sprocket sizes, only the final ratio to the tire is all that should matter and I don't see the small differences in final ratio keeping that ramp from working or not, just think how many changes have been made to final gearing via chain or belt drive sprockets with the older comp over the years with no issue.
Quote from: BVHOG on February 22, 2015, 07:13:16 AM
I see that there are concerns that the drive sprocket being larger than the older models would create more leverage on the smaller diameter older ramp design. My question is does it really make a difference since in high gear the early and late trans/primary are both 1 to 1 final ratio to the tire. I don't see how that can change the actual torque at the crankshaft
Not sure why all the concern of this ramp design, it has been used for decades and has worked well. Do we really need to see 50 thousand miles before we accept that this is a simple fix to an ongoing problem with the MoCo comp. We have been putting big power to the old comps for years with almost no issues.
First part :up: Newtons third law.. Real interesting that HD tech experts try to rewrite 400 year old physics when people that are a lot smarter can't do it..
One of the things I've noticed about the later comps is that they deliver less of a pulsed feel as the throttle is rolled on.. They make the motor pull smoother.. I do think the reason for the comp fiasco is due to the design changes.. The softer comp.
I agree with Max as it is the design changes that have caused this fiasco. The cranks were failing so they never fixed the problem with the silly putty cranks, they just moved the weak link by using a comp that will fail before the crank. I don't believe this issue will be resolved until they up the quality and go back to the 02 and back style set up. I hope I'm wrong and the Baker comp solves the problem.
Doesnt all the aother non failing comps use ramp to ramp design?
So how many of the late model comps worn out.. Should have some mileage data by now.. Been out for a year and a half..
Try not to mention hearsay..
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2015, 05:44:07 AM
By the way, one forum member has 18k on the SE with oiler and 15 of that was run with ATF :sick:. It's still working ok. He can comment if he chooses.
Ron
That would be me. I have 18k very hard miles on the 40274-08A - Screamin' Eagle® Big Twin Compensator, and have had the GMR oiler in place since day one. I posted pics quite a while ago when it had just over 5k miles on it, it now has around 18k on it. It looked good, and worked fine. Currently and for the last 3k miles, I've been running Bel-Ray Gear Saver 75w, the clutch actually likes it better than ATF. I get a little noise when the compensator is cold, really just till operating temperature. But it acts and sounds the same as when new, other than what I mentioned when it's cold.
If I open up the primary and need to remove the compensator, I'll post pics and list the mileage again. But at present, I have no plans to open her up.
Added: Here's the posting with the pics at 5,119 miles in the compensator.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,68275.msg735142.html#msg735142 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,68275.msg735142.html#msg735142)
My buddy I ride with has a 2013 SE Road Glide with 26k on it. Nothing has ever been done to the bike, bone stock. I listened to his comp yesterday and it's quieter than my bikes. :nix:
Coyote, that is impressive. Talk him into allowing you to take it apart to find out why it is working. :wink:
Quote from: Coyote on February 22, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
My buddy I ride with has a 2013 SE Road Glide with 26k on it. Nothing has ever been done to the bike, bone stock. I listened to his comp yesterday and it's quieter than my bikes. :nix:
And this is an OEM Harley compensator?
Quote from: 07heri on February 23, 2015, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 22, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
My buddy I ride with has a 2013 SE Road Glide with 26k on it. Nothing has ever been done to the bike, bone stock. I listened to his comp yesterday and it's quieter than my bikes. :nix:
And this is an OEM Harley compensator?
Quote from: Coyote on February 23, 2015, 05:48:06 PM
Quote from: 07heri on February 23, 2015, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 22, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
My buddy I ride with has a 2013 SE Road Glide with 26k on it. Nothing has ever been done to the bike, bone stock. I listened to his comp yesterday and it's quieter than my bikes. :nix:
And this is an OEM Harley compensator?
So what's all the hoopla about bad compensators? Why all the concern if a vendor reinvents the wheel if HD is already making a proven product? is the OEM comp a good design or not? Is it just bad quality control? Do we need to wait for a vendor to reinvent the wheel?
Sometimes these threads go round and round. One person says the stock comp is quiet at 26k. Someone else says theirs lasted less than 5k. Someone else says they lack proper oiling. It goes on and on and on. I have 30k on a stock 07 comp and it's quiet. I'm starting to think all this bad compensator stuff is just forum nonsense.
I'm not questioning you, just asking. My interest stems from having tall gears in an 07 and the possibility of a stouter comp with the hope of a ratio change, without swapping belts.
I have to think that riding style will also dictate how long the comp will last. My 12 FLHTK has almost 47 K miles on the stock comp with only the slight knock when shutting off the bike. I tend to maintain steady speeds and roll the throttle on smoothly when exiting turns. I have ridden near (not with) riders who are constantly accelerating then decelerating. (thinking they love the sound of their pipes) I would think that would lead to increased wear of the comp. Also: Some like to use ATF which (IMHO) is too thin for the primary. And some have said they only put in X number of ounces instead of the newer amounts of approx. 37 oz's. It seems the requirements of the comp are at odds with the requirements of the clutch. Mobil 1 10/40 has worked for me with no noticeable slippage and not much fur on the drain plug magnet.
Well.... That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :chop:
I just took my primary cover off to look at my compensator on my 2013 UL. I didn't take the compensator apart, but the lobes on the cams looked pretty good to me. I've got 58,330 miles on it. This is the first time I've been in the primary, so it is the OEM part.
I've used Formula+ since it was new. It's as quiet as can be.
Quote from: 07heri on February 23, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 23, 2015, 05:48:06 PM
Quote from: 07heri on February 23, 2015, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: Coyote on February 22, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
My buddy I ride with has a 2013 SE Road Glide with 26k on it. Nothing has ever been done to the bike, bone stock. I listened to his comp yesterday and it's quieter than my bikes. :nix:
And this is an OEM Harley compensator?
So what's all the hoopla about bad compensators? Why all the concern if a vendor reinvents the wheel if HD is already making a proven product? is the OEM comp a good design or not? Is it just bad quality control? Do we need to wait for a vendor to reinvent the wheel?
Sometimes these threads go round and round. One person says the stock comp is quiet at 26k. Someone else says theirs lasted less than 5k. Someone else says they lack proper oiling. It goes on and on and on. I have 30k on a stock 07 comp and it's quiet. I'm starting to think all this bad compensator stuff is just forum nonsense.
I'm not questioning you, just asking. My interest stems from having tall gears in an 07 and the possibility of a stouter comp with the hope of a ratio change, without swapping belts.
So, you saying MoCo just improved oiling on the 14 version because they were bored and needed something to do? Forums are small potatoes as to what goes on in the real world. Many riders don't ever join a forum. Seems like every time I went the dealer there was a new 08A comp sitting on the counter for somebody to pick up. We did not invest time and money into an imaginary issue, nor did Darkhorse and Baker.
Ron
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 24, 2015, 06:20:53 AM
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
I should have kept the 1946 Champ airplane. Would have been cheaper and at least could fly the damn thing in the winter with skis. :hyst: The money I've spent on HD since 07 I could have bought a second aircraft. :banghead:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on February 24, 2015, 06:43:01 AM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 24, 2015, 06:20:53 AM
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
I should have kept the 1946 Champ airplane. Would have been cheaper and at least could fly the damn thing in the winter with skis. :hyst: The money I've spent on HD since 07 I could have bought a second aircraft. :banghead:
Ron
I was all set to buy a 1960 Piper Comanche when rumors of layoffs hit the office. I lost a $2k deposit on the deal and decided to go with what I thought would be a less expensive option. I never dreamt that I would have sunk more coin into this scoot than the price of that Comanche. Anyone want to buy a slightly modified low milage Deuce?
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on February 24, 2015, 07:53:49 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 24, 2015, 06:43:01 AM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 24, 2015, 06:20:53 AM
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
I should have kept the 1946 Champ airplane. Would have been cheaper and at least could fly the damn thing in the winter with skis. :hyst: The money I've spent on HD since 07 I could have bought a second aircraft. :banghead:
Ron
I was all set to buy a 1960 Piper Comanche when rumors of layoffs hit the office. I lost a $2k deposit on the deal and decided to go with what I thought would be a less expensive option. I never dreamt that I would have sunk more coin into this scoot than the price of that Comanche. Anyone want to buy a slightly modified low milage Deuce?
:hyst: No.
Ron
My girls dad is in the champ vs harley dilemma. He wishes he never sold his 05 road king. I vote bike he already has a 172 lol.
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 24, 2015, 06:20:53 AM
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
No , No, not a panhead, they didn't use compensators, it will never work. :teeth:
1965 panhead was the first year for the compensating sprocket.
Quote from: kcbike on February 24, 2015, 09:03:44 AM
1965 panhead was the first year for the compensating sprocket.
You sure? Buds 57 had one. My 52 didn't. I think 65 was first electric start. :nix:
Ron
Quote from: Reddog74usa on February 24, 2015, 06:20:53 AM
Man I'm gittin real close to buying a V-Rod or a Victory / Indian. Great technical design without the drama. At this point a well redone Shovel or Pan would be A LOT more fun and reliable than these newer models. Way cheaper to :bike:
My 93" S&S shovel has had no compensator since I installed it over 30K miles ago.
you are correct 1955-1964 shows -55 part# 1965- early 1970 shows-65 # both used coil spring. mid 1970 started diaphragm spring style also made ramps wider
Didn't some of the tin primaries (55 /56) have a raised dome for the comp sprocket clearance?
Quote from: kd on February 24, 2015, 10:29:24 AM
Didn't some of the tin primaries (55 /56) have a raised dome for the comp sprocket clearance?
Yup. There was a grease fitting on the comps as well if I remember correctly. There might have been a small removable cap to access it.
Ron
I almost mentioned the grease fitting (I still have one) and the cap but I'm old and if you make a mistake on this forum Max and a few others will come out of hiding to let you know. :dgust:
Quote from: kd on February 24, 2015, 12:31:14 PM
I almost mentioned the grease fitting (I still have one) and the cap but I'm old and if you make a mistake on this forum Max and a few others will come out of hiding to let you know. :dgust:
No kidding. :banghead: :wink:
Ron
So should we install a greaser zerk on our comps?
Early XLH sportsters had comp sprockets but they disappeared. Funny, with the same crank and rod design as the Twin cam, from stock 883 all the way up to a 120ci S&S super stock sportster no comp is used or needed.
A buddy of mine has said many times that he thinks that the comp issues are directly linked to riding style. In specific lugging. Thoughts?
Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 05:54:20 AM
A buddy of mine has said many times that he thinks that the comp issues are directly linked to riding style. In specific lugging. Thoughts?
Yes. The more the comp moves the more it will wear without decent lubing. Using a gear a bit tall will cause more movement within the comp. I wouldn't call it lugging since the engine never really complains and is willing to accel readily. Most riders operate the HD in that area due to it's huge amount of torque available to deal with load from a gear higher then it should be.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2015, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 05:54:20 AM
A buddy of mine has said many times that he thinks that the comp issues are directly linked to riding style. In specific lugging. Thoughts?
Yes. The more the comp moves the more it will wear without decent lubing. Using a gear a bit tall will cause more movement within the comp. I wouldn't call it lugging since the engine never really complains and is willing to accel readily. Most riders operate the HD in that area due to it's huge amount of torque available to deal with load from a gear higher then it should be.
Ron
Agreed. But wouldn't you agree that there is a large amount of people that don't ride appropriately for the given engine speed? Not being in the correct gear? I know of one that I ride with. Now add into the mix of taller gearing and the sprocket changes that are so very prevalent?
There may be something to that theory. If you do a search on the subject of lugging you will find riders insist that they have no issues running there bikes in 6th at 55 MPH however if you look at the final drive ratios you will find the even 5th gear in a six speed (3.28) on a Dyna or softail has a bit taller ratio compared to 5th in a five speed (3.37)on a 1999 to 2002 injected touring model. Now run the bike in sixth gear at say (2.79) at 55 MPH and IMHO it is lugging for sure and really putting the comp to the test as it flips back and fourth. Also many complain about the mileage of the later injected six speed models. If you are running the engine (lugging) outside it's efficiency range or sweet spot mileage will suffer. With my 08 Fat Bob I do not use 6th until I'm doing 70 MPH and the bike runs great. In fact the stock six speed seems to have a decent ratio set up if used correctly. I did a search and copied this from another members post giving the stock gear ratios for your info. :chop:
Re: 09 Speed to RPM please
« Reply #3 on: Thursday, December 19, 2013. 02:52:16 AM. »
Quote
Touring Softail/Dyna
Primary:
34/46 34/46
Tranny:
1st 3.34 3.34
2nd 2.31 2.31
3rd 1.72 1.72
4th 1.39 1.39
5th 1.18 1.18
6th 1.00 1.00
Final Drive:
32/68 32/66
Overall Ratio:
1st 9.593 9.31
2nd 6.650 6.42
3rd 4.938 4.77
4th 4.00 3.93
5th 3.407 3.28
6th 2.875 2.79
For rpm vs. speed calculation use the Big Boyz calculator: http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/Gearratio.htm (http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/Gearratio.htm)
:chop:
Come on guys. After all these are Harley's. We buy them for that Potato Potato idle sound. We love hearing the exhaust as we cruise along. These are not crotch rockets made for screaming RPMs. This is an aged engine design made reliable by current technology. They are made, sold, bought and riden for that low RPM sound and feel. We cant run the 07+ TC as low of RPM as the per07 & EVOs cause of the change in torque range. The comp will fail at any RPM, riding style or place in the world if it is not properly lubricated. Lube it and it will do whatever you want to do with the bike. I would like to see Baker come out with a set up to take the primary ratios back to pre-07 and a matched gear set up. Make it preform as did the per07s and everyone would be thrilled with the new found performance. That is a check I would write in a heartbeat.
RichardK
I read thread after thread after thread about people that want to change gearing. Why? Doing that makes no sense to me. They change the bike to adapt to them rather adapt to the bike. People, from what I have read are trying to make the bike as much of an automatic as they can. This is why we have levers, so we the rider can dictate where and when we want the power.
My dad doesn't understand this yet. (New rider). He will roll hard in 6th while at 55-60 and I can hear the bike struggle. If he continues, I am going to bet he will be in the shop for a new compensator.
Quote from: Richard K on February 26, 2015, 07:30:45 AM
:chop:
Come on guys. After all these are Harley's. We buy them for that Potato Potato idle sound.
:scratch:
Quote from: Richard K on February 26, 2015, 07:30:45 AM
:chop:
Come on guys. After all these are Harley's. We buy them for that Potato Potato idle sound. We love hearing the exhaust as we cruise along. These are not crotch rockets made for screaming RPMs. This is an aged engine design made reliable by current technology. They are made, sold, bought and riden for that low RPM sound and feel. We cant run the 07+ TC as low of RPM as the per07 & EVOs cause of the change in torque range. The comp will fail at any RPM, riding style or place in the world if it is not properly lubricated. Lube it and it will do whatever you want to do with the bike. I would like to see Baker come out with a set up to take the primary ratios back to pre-07 and a matched gear set up. Make it preform as did the per07s and everyone would be thrilled with the new found performance. That is a check I would write in a heartbeat.
RichardK
Don't you find it odd that a company who's bread and butter is known for transmissions is trying to solve this issue? You are trying to say that the compensator issues are solely based on lack of lubrication, no way can it be that simple.
Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 07:37:47 AM
I read thread after thread after thread about people that want to change gearing. Why? Doing that makes no sense to me. They change the bike to adapt to them rather adapt to the bike. People, from what I have read are trying to make the bike as much of an automatic as they can. This is why we have levers, so we the rider can dictate where and when we want the power.
My dad doesn't understand this yet. (New rider). He will roll hard in 6th while at 55-60 and I can hear the bike struggle. If he continues, I am going to bet he will be in the shop for a new compensator.
The stock gearing might be OK for the stock power, and that is even debatable depending what year/ model you want to talk about. My 09 FL came stock with 70hp. Power output has doubled. Gearing needed to be addressed.
No it didn't. We just think that it does. For me it does not matter what the top speed my bike is, I care about how fast I can get there and if that power is within a pretermined range that I want to operate in.
Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 08:23:33 AM
No it didn't. We just think that it does. For me it does not matter what the top speed my bike is, I care about how fast I can get there and if that power is within a pretermined range that I want to operate in.
...and that is gearing. We can agree to disagree.
I've killed my compensator and I don't ride it like a potato farmer. I never shift below 3k unless I'm coasting down a hill or trying to sneak out of my neighborhood while warming the engine up, and in that case it's probably light throttle 2500... I love the 2-1 wail at higher RPMs and my EFI bike aint' got a clue what a potato potato idle/low rpm sounds like... My shovel and Evo, yes.
I'd say I killed my comp by hard launching, which I do pretty much every time I leave a stop light. I don't even try to leave a light with low rpm and small throttle openings, way too much clutch slipping to avoid lugging. THAT is where re-gearing would help immensely, these late model bikes are turds with the tall gearing and tall first gear. I don't know how guys do it. But they get double and then some on tire life... :smilep:
Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 07:44:09 AM
Quote from: Richard K on February 26, 2015, 07:30:45 AM
:chop:
Come on guys. After all these are Harley's. We buy them for that Potato Potato idle sound. We love hearing the exhaust as we cruise along. These are not crotch rockets made for screaming RPMs. This is an aged engine design made reliable by current technology. They are made, sold, bought and riden for that low RPM sound and feel. We cant run the 07+ TC as low of RPM as the per07 & EVOs cause of the change in torque range. The comp will fail at any RPM, riding style or place in the world if it is not properly lubricated. Lube it and it will do whatever you want to do with the bike. I would like to see Baker come out with a set up to take the primary ratios back to pre-07 and a matched gear set up. Make it preform as did the per07s and everyone would be thrilled with the new found performance. That is a check I would write in a heartbeat.
RichardK
Don't you find it odd that a company who's bread and butter is known for transmissions is trying to solve this issue? You are trying to say that the compensator issues are solely based on lack of lubrication, no way can it be that simple.
It is pretty much that simple on the current SE comps. Take the example if the comp was submerged completely with a decent gear oil. That bastard would never wear out. The more quality oil the better it will live. Remove all oil and see how long it lasts. Not long.
Ron
How about we run 10" over shocks on the back, keeping the majority of the primary oil in the front of the primary? :scoot:
:chop:
Guys, once again, it is not the stock or build or riding styles. Lube it and the issues go away. Well except for the dumbassed roll thrust that now needs to go away.
I don't mean any disrespect and having different views and opinions add to figuring things out.
RichardK
07 bagger, I run 48 oz wet change in primary with hd primary fluid, 65000 miles on the first version of the se comp, still looks good. No trouble with clutch drag or finding neutral.
Quote from: rageglide on February 26, 2015, 10:35:36 AM
How about we run 10" over shocks on the back, keeping the majority of the primary oil in the front of the primary? :scoot:
How about really aggressive downshifts and hard braking every 15-20 seconds to shift all of the oil to the front for a few seconds? Personally, bolting on a Compensavor would be more civilized. :hyst:
Ron
Yeah I have to agree Ron, it seems like that's the better idea. Handling would be kinda questionable with the huge rake too.
I was thinking I'd join the early adopters, but the longer I've waited, the more I can't wait.
I finally parked my sled with an empty fuel tank because it's time to deal with the compensator and chase down a few valve train noises.
Is the Harley comp. the only one that uses spoke o ramp?
I know BDL does the screw. And Dark horse's is rubber.
#1 if "lugging" killed compensators mine would have died 5k-6k miles ago or at lest been replaced twice. :turd:
#2 I believe compensators are dieing due to lubrication AND
#3 riding style or more specifically shifting/clutch style? I know it's not downshifting style because I hammer the bejesus out of mine and it still looks good and works fine.
#4 nothing above is more than a scientific wild a$$ guess
My 2 cents :baby:
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 02, 2015, 05:37:44 PM
#2 I believe compensators are dieing due to lubrication AND
My 2 cents :baby:
I would say LACK of lubrication.
Brain fart!
Lack of lubrication or IMPROPER lubrication.
Thanks
This whole deal could be cured with a camp with more surface area on the ramps and then make sure it gets lube. If you look at a stock comp the ramps are maybe 1" across and they ride on a more or less round spoke. Until the comp has some wear the contact surface is minimal. Once it gets worn in it makes noise and gets replaced. Machine a comp with ramps that mate to to another set of ramps, with more surface area. HD wants to build a comp that is cheap and easy to manufacturer instead of spending a few $$ and build one that will last. Get the bean counters something else to do and let a real engineer build the darned thing!
I can not help but wonder if a set up like you see in an auto motive clutch disk would not work. Just a few coil springs in a circle at the center of the hub. How much movement does it need to have? What do the import bike manufacturers do with their large v-twins?
Quote from: PoorUB on March 02, 2015, 06:50:51 PM
This whole deal could be cured with a camp with more surface area on the ramps and then make sure it gets lube. If you look at a stock comp the ramps are maybe 1" across and they ride on a more or less round spoke. Until the comp has some wear the contact surface is minimal. Once it gets worn in it makes noise and gets replaced. Machine a comp with ramps that mate to to another set of ramps, with more surface area. HD wants to build a comp that is cheap and easy to manufacturer instead of spending a few $$ and build one that will last. Get the bean counters something else to do and let a real engineer build the darned thing!
I can not help but wonder if a set up like you see in an auto motive clutch disk would not work. Just a few coil springs in a circle at the center of the hub. How much movement does it need to have? What do the import bike manufacturers do with their large v-twins?
V rod has those in the clutch basket. Not sure they would hold up to constant movement in the big twins harsh pulsing. More to take hard launch shock out in the case of the v rod then anything else. Endless racing tends to make them loose in the pockets over time. Serious guys go with a billet basket and eliminate those springs. I do agree, a more purposely profiled area on the spoke would do wonders. What does the MoCo do on the latest version? Has a damn groove in it that actually reduces working zone compared to the O8A. The lack of oil delivery in the 14 version, they really don't contribute to holding oil as was the intent in the design. Maybe with the compensavor this groove helps to do it's intended job of holding some oil but I'd like to see no groove there. As is, it's just an area that faster wear happens from lack of material. A raised ridge just outboard of the cam contact to trap outward travelling oil, like a mini dam retaining more oil in the contact patch would be a better choice. However, as is, if it gets oil to the spokes life span should be at an acceptable range.
Ron
Except the original style compensator was a simple cast design also. They should be able to cast a drive sprocket with a spoke that's got a higher contact profile. The guy who designed the new SE probably had enough seniority that the junior review team accepted his statement that the added oil flow and the oil channel would provide the cushion. Might even have been the guy who designed the first SE...
UJMs have used Cush drive for years, but they don't run a press fit crank. Also, the shafties usually use a driveshaft that has a rubber interface between the two ends.
Tired of watching Hockey, ran out and pulled the comp apart.
Looks like lack of lube to me.
Evidence of bottoming, Splines were dry as a bone, running surface pretty ugly, spokes showing the profile they want. :wink:
14,100 miles
[attach=0] [attach=1] [attachimg=3]
Here's the sprocket at 5000 miles
Well that settles that.
Spoke and ramp no good.
Do you guys think that just having ramp to ramp makes all the difference in lube? With spoke it would just sling of as ramp would hold some till it flings off the ramps..
rageglide...that looks very familiar. :doh:
Unfortunately I've got more than a few of those paper weights laying around.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on March 03, 2015, 02:41:47 AM
rageglide...that looks very familiar. :doh:
Unfortunately I've got more than a few of those paper weights laying around.
[attach=0]
Ray
Now show the one that gets oil. :wink:
Ron
Quote from: N-gin on March 02, 2015, 10:41:12 PM
Well that settles that.
Spoke and ramp no good.
Do you guys think that just having ramp to ramp makes all the difference in lube? With spoke it would just sling of as ramp would hold some till it flings off the ramps..
No. No lube is no lube regardless. Besides, the spoke is a ramp. It's just unfortunate that they never added about .090 extra material there to allow it to bed into the correct profile, then it would be operating at the correct preload and rotation. They started at the correct preload and rotation point but the break in period where the spoke sets a matching angle to the cam takes metal off below where it should be. Dumb fks should have allowed for this. :banghead: With generous lubing this process is delayed and operational life is carried further down the road to be reasonably acceptable. I do smell a verion B down the road sporting a couple new small changes to once and for all put this crap to bed.
Ron
This is just my opinion, but I think all the last version needed besides a GMR oil tray is additional hardening of the spokes and ramps (much harder).
Quote from: citabria on March 03, 2015, 06:00:07 AM
This is just my opinion, but I think all the last version needed besides a GMR oil tray is additional hardening of the spokes and ramps (much harder).
Like maybe 50+ rockwell
Quote from: No Cents on March 03, 2015, 02:41:47 AM
rageglide...that looks very familiar. :doh:
Unfortunately I've got more than a few of those paper weights laying around.
Ray
Sure does Ray! The I.D. running surface I didn't capture looks like yours too.
I was a little surprised to see the prominent tell tale from the spring going over center. Maybe the suggestion brought up before of doubling the small spring would resist a little better. Certainly isn't going to fix the real problem, but might keep things a little quieter longer.
Ordered a compensaver last night. I'd rather not accumulate as many of these paper weights...
:chop:
Hey all
For years now folks have been circling this topic over and over and over. Not just this forum but any forum discussing Harleys. Everything discussed has been researched and closely scrutinized. We have had it ALL looked at hard by experts with experience and knowledge well beyond any of us. Yes the MoCo has shorted us on some quality by refusing to match machine the spokes, get it lubed and balance the whole mass. That is just what it is and we have to deal with what we have. It has been proven time and again just get it all lubed and it work well and will last a very long time in spite of the MoCo's bean counters. The pics in the last post and pics just like them have been shown countless times on this and all the other forums. Oil it and that all goes away and that is a proven fact. The hardness has been tested and reviewed by engineers we have retained and is adequate to do the job. So there are choices here; Do nothing and keep posting on the topic, Get it oiled and be done with it and like most others who have resolved the issue move on to other things leaving this behind, or wait for that magical replacement to make it all better. I have stated my concerns with what you are all waiting for and questions are not being answered so time will time the story there. It is distressing to me to read and feel all the frustrations here and on the other forums over this Harley made situation.. I want to see us all just enjoying the look, feel, sound and ride of our Harleys not all this.
Warm weather is about here so ride safe all
RichardK
Amen, brother!
................. :up:
Quote from: rbabos on March 03, 2015, 05:27:57 AM
Quote from: No Cents on March 03, 2015, 02:41:47 AM
rageglide...that looks very familiar. :doh:
Unfortunately I've got more than a few of those paper weights laying around.
[attach=0]
Ray
Now show the one that gets oil. :wink:
Ron
Ron...this is the only picture I could find after running the CompensaVer.
This was SE comp number three for me.
Getting oil to the internals vastly improved my comp! :wink:
Ray
[attach=0]
Quote from: No Cents on March 03, 2015, 04:17:28 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 03, 2015, 05:27:57 AM
Quote from: No Cents on March 03, 2015, 02:41:47 AM
rageglide...that looks very familiar. :doh:
Unfortunately I've got more than a few of those paper weights laying around.
[attach=0]
Ray
Now show the one that gets oil. :wink:
Ron
Ron...this is the only picture I could find after running the CompensaVer.
This was SE comp number three for me.
Getting oil to the internals vastly improved my comp! :wink:
Ray
[attach=0]
Cool. Looks slippery. :hyst:
Ron
What about the spoke wear? :pop:
I wasn't thinking when I took the picture of the sprocket...I should have showed the other side.
At the time on that 3rd comp that was pictured I was running Amsoil Super Shift ATF and the spokes didn't look too bad. I switched my primary lube to B&M Trick Shift and I added one extra small spring to the stack. It wasn't long before that comp started talking to me and making an awful racquet again.
Ron & Richard asked me to not give up on running a comp with the CompensaVer and they were kind enough to send me a slightly used sprocket and cam to replace comp #3. They asked me to take the extra spring out of the stack and try it again. So I did. I had already purchased the Vulcan comp eliminator solid sprocket because I was fed up with all the trouble I was having. It's currently sitting on the work bench and I haven't tried it.
So far this #4 comp has been quiet...and I also switched my primary oil to the Spectro Golden Gear Lube sae 85. The bike seems to like the Spectro 85 in the primary.
Ray
Quote from: Richard K on March 03, 2015, 09:05:29 AM
:chop:
Hey all
For years now folks have been circling this topic over and over and over. Not just this forum but any forum discussing Harleys. Everything discussed has been researched and closely scrutinized. We have had it ALL looked at hard by experts with experience and knowledge well beyond any of us. Yes the MoCo has shorted us on some quality by refusing to match machine the spokes, get it lubed and balance the whole mass. That is just what it is and we have to deal with what we have. It has been proven time and again just get it all lubed and it work well and will last a very long time in spite of the MoCo's bean counters. The pics in the last post and pics just like them have been shown countless times on this and all the other forums. Oil it and that all goes away and that is a proven fact. The hardness has been tested and reviewed by engineers we have retained and is adequate to do the job. So there are choices here; Do nothing and keep posting on the topic, Get it oiled and be done with it and like most others who have resolved the issue move on to other things leaving this behind, or wait for that magical replacement to make it all better. I have stated my concerns with what you are all waiting for and questions are not being answered so time will time the story there. It is distressing to me to read and feel all the frustrations here and on the other forums over this Harley made situation.. I want to see us all just enjoying the look, feel, sound and ride of our Harleys not all this.
Warm weather is about here so ride safe all
RichardK
Problem for some of us is that we run the Baker Attitude Adjuster and have no room for the CompenSaver. Yes, we could get our stock tensioner welded but I do not weld and I do not want just anybody trying to weld my tensioner... So waiting on the Baker Comp with fingers crossed.
:chop:
No, the oil tray was not made to easily allow for the Attitude adjuster. Things happen for a reason you know..something goes south everyone gets blamed..
RichardK
Quote from: FBobPilot on March 03, 2015, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: Richard K on March 03, 2015, 09:05:29 AM
:chop:
Hey all
For years now folks have been circling this topic over and over and over. Not just this forum but any forum discussing Harleys. Everything discussed has been researched and closely scrutinized. We have had it ALL looked at hard by experts with experience and knowledge well beyond any of us. Yes the MoCo has shorted us on some quality by refusing to match machine the spokes, get it lubed and balance the whole mass. That is just what it is and we have to deal with what we have. It has been proven time and again just get it all lubed and it work well and will last a very long time in spite of the MoCo's bean counters. The pics in the last post and pics just like them have been shown countless times on this and all the other forums. Oil it and that all goes away and that is a proven fact. The hardness has been tested and reviewed by engineers we have retained and is adequate to do the job. So there are choices here; Do nothing and keep posting on the topic, Get it oiled and be done with it and like most others who have resolved the issue move on to other things leaving this behind, or wait for that magical replacement to make it all better. I have stated my concerns with what you are all waiting for and questions are not being answered so time will time the story there. It is distressing to me to read and feel all the frustrations here and on the other forums over this Harley made situation.. I want to see us all just enjoying the look, feel, sound and ride of our Harleys not all this.
Warm weather is about here so ride safe all
RichardK
Problem for some of us is that we run the Baker Attitude Adjuster and have no room for the CompenSaver. Yes, we could get our stock tensioner welded but I do not weld and I do not want just anybody trying to weld my tensioner... So waiting on the Baker Comp with fingers crossed.
My proto was modified to run with the Attitude and we did one other for another customer to beta test. It got too involved especially on installing both of these at the same time and wasn't practical to go this route with numbers favouring the OEM tensioner. A business decision, nothing personal. Also there is more collection area in the tray by not using the Attitude.
Ron
My biggest problem with the compensaver is. I have two of them on the shelf and no comps they go with. Sure I can modify it so it only lube spokes, but how does that address the problem of lack of lube on the inside?
Hey Baker, are these things ready to ship or what?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 05:55:31 AM
My biggest problem with the compensaver is. I have two of them on the shelf and no comps they go with. Sure I can modify it so it only lube spokes, but how does that address the problem of lack of lube on the inside?
Hey Baker, are these things ready to ship or what?
Check your PM. Not really a problem.
Ron
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well, complimenting the current OEM version of the retainer we used before they came out with it. Yes ours was a much better retainer. Without our tray it's still a dud in the spoke oiling department.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
:gob: Since when do they listen to me?
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:54:18 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
:gob: Since when do they listen to me?
Ron
They're oiling the compensator.... :hyst:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:55:31 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:54:18 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
:gob: Since when do they listen to me?
Ron
They're oiling the compensator.... :hyst:
Almost. Had they listened more carefully, they would have fully succeeded. :wink:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 09:01:29 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:55:31 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:54:18 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
:gob: Since when do they listen to me?
Ron
They're oiling the compensator.... :hyst:
Almost. Had they listened more carefully, they would have fully succeeded. :wink:
Ron
:up:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
I think that the original Compensaver was pretty good with one exception.. HD added oil holes in the splined spacer that allowed oil into the sliding cam and to the damping springs.. It's real hard to get oil into there..
This brings up a question..
How is the latest comp doing?? I remember seeing one here that looked like some trash had gotten into the bearing area but there has to be a bunch out there that are accumulating miles.. I don't see the techs here complaining about then.. Heard a rumor that I find hard to believe about a gag order to all the dealers about comp issues.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
Then where would the external oil from the heads return to?
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 04, 2015, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
I think that the original Compensaver was pretty good with one exception.. HD added oil holes in the splined spacer that allowed oil into the sliding cam and to the damping springs.. It's real hard to get oil into there..
This brings up a question..
How is the latest comp doing?? I remember seeing one here that looked like some trash had gotten into the bearing area but there has to be a bunch out there that are accumulating miles.. I don't see the techs here complaining about then.. Heard a rumor that I find hard to believe about a gag order to all the dealers about comp issues.
Oil to the splines however small is a good thing although these parts are hard and quite wear resistant. Springs, well that's one tough area to deal with due to the lips almost forming an oil tight seal on the outer contact lip area. I think the splines and springs should go the distance for a reasonable life span.
Funny you mention the gag order. That's pretty much on all their stuff. If you get to know one of the guys really well, there's a hidden world behind the scenes we seldom see. They are not allowed to speak openly on matters like these, which is understandable for job security.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 09:50:18 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 04, 2015, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
I think that the original Compensaver was pretty good with one exception.. HD added oil holes in the splined spacer that allowed oil into the sliding cam and to the damping springs.. It's real hard to get oil into there..
This brings up a question..
How is the latest comp doing?? I remember seeing one here that looked like some trash had gotten into the bearing area but there has to be a bunch out there that are accumulating miles.. I don't see the techs here complaining about then.. Heard a rumor that I find hard to believe about a gag order to all the dealers about comp issues.
Oil to the splines however small is a good thing although these parts are hard and quite wear resistant. Springs, well that's one tough area to deal with due to the lips almost forming an oil tight seal on the outer contact lip area. I think the splines and springs should go the distance for a reasonable life span.
Funny you mention the gag order. That's pretty much on all their stuff. If you get to know one of the guys really well, there's a hidden world behind the scenes we seldom see. They are not allowed to speak openly on matters like these, which is understandable for job security.
Ron
I still see the same red crap on the cam splines and springs so it seams like they are getting very little oil..
I would imagine that those close to mother HD should keep quiet (and their jobs) but I don't see stuff going on at the dealers being muted, especially when a customer is involved.
I'm curious, how much of the compensator "failure" is attributed to the red crap. It seems to me the spoke wear is the indicator of "failure". No?
Obviously if the I.D. and O.D. of the running surfaces really open up the sprocket would be bouncing all over the place. But I can't imagine a bike still being in service once it's making that much noise.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 09:37:32 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 04, 2015, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
Words need to be used more carefully. :hyst: Part of the original Compensaver is no longer used. The main part, the heart of the system is alive and doing it's job well.
Ron
Ya know Ron, after yer recent foray into a Shovel Head, I'm surprised you don't recommend HD make a system that oils the primary chain, and the compensator in the TC motors. Then suck the oil back into the motor.... :wink:
Then where would the external oil from the heads return to?
Oil pan... :teeth:
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 04, 2015, 10:23:36 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 04, 2015, 09:50:18 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 04, 2015, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on March 04, 2015, 08:20:01 AM
Compensaver has done everything I would want a company to do. Month ago I was offered a buy back program. I decided to keep what I got and modify them myself.
The HD unit now has a design that is suppose to lube the inside. I don't think the design is as good as the compensaver. The original design of the compensaver is a dead product. That is a shame.
Moving on. Is the baker unit close to being shipped? I have a couple of bikes here that I need to make a decision on. Buy the HD stuff and have a go at that or try the aftermarket offerings.
I think that the original Compensaver was pretty good with one exception.. HD added oil holes in the splined spacer that allowed oil into the sliding cam and to the damping springs.. It's real hard to get oil into there..
This brings up a question..
How is the latest comp doing?? I remember seeing one here that looked like some trash had gotten into the bearing area but there has to be a bunch out there that are accumulating miles.. I don't see the techs here complaining about then.. Heard a rumor that I find hard to believe about a gag order to all the dealers about comp issues.
Oil to the splines however small is a good thing although these parts are hard and quite wear resistant. Springs, well that's one tough area to deal with due to the lips almost forming an oil tight seal on the outer contact lip area. I think the splines and springs should go the distance for a reasonable life span.
Funny you mention the gag order. That's pretty much on all their stuff. If you get to know one of the guys really well, there's a hidden world behind the scenes we seldom see. They are not allowed to speak openly on matters like these, which is understandable for job security.
Ron
I still see the same red crap on the cam splines and springs so it seams like they are getting very little oil..
I would imagine that those close to mother HD should keep quiet (and their jobs) but I don't see stuff going on at the dealers being muted, especially when a customer is involved.
You still running the 08a? The latest version should just get enough in there to stop most of that, at least on the splines. With the exception of the early 07 comps with coarse splines, I doubt the 08a and newer would suffer spline failures within the wear out point of the rest of the comp even with marginal oil in that area. Who knows, get enough oil for the rest of the parts and it might be the next weak link. Then again, milage at that point, most would not bitch about a replacement at that stage.
Most owners don't belong to forums. Let's face it many today wouldn't even know what a compensator is let alone discuss it over a beer. Many I've asked don't even know where and what it is. They take it to the dealer if something makes noise , get it fixed and ride on with little thought about it after. Rinse and repeat as needed. :hyst: MoCo's favourite customer base. They probably hate the rest of us gearheads for :potstir:
Ron
:chop:
Max you heard correctly. I was informed it was a "non-disclosure" and it carries years past not being associated with the MoCo. Ask yourselves just how many Harley reps have you ever seen post anything on this topic.
The new comp is lasting longer and that along with the dealers being more quick to replace the comp without too much hassle has proven to quiet down the complaints. They are still failing and on that you can take to the bank.
How about some proven info on oiling a comp. The OEM retainer and intake covers the sprocket bore and thrust especially when lots of oil is available to the OEM scoop. It is inadequate to push oil in any quantity to the rear for the rest of the working parts. Some yes but way short of what is required to provide a respectable service life span.
If you discharge a liberal and constant oil flow into the spokes at the center most point that will lube everything. When the oil is flowing into the spinning spokes they break the oil up and creates a forceful splash. A small percentage is thrown to the cover thus the constant and increased flow to the OEM scoop. The majority is forced all through the interior of the unit before being thrown out. Thus the required constant flow. This includes the shaft extension and cam splines where they are liberally and constantly lubricated. Needless to say the cam ramps and spokes are also well lubed. The springs do receive some oil between them but as stated they are all but sealed by its design. So flow oil into it and all is lubed and life is substantially expanded.
We still are finding noise the main complaint and the removal of the roller thrust remedies much of that.
RichardK
I can't find it but I think I read on here that the '14 models came with a newly designed comp that was much better. All I know is that the other day I road my '14 Ultra around the parking lot without my ear plugs and damn that thing is noisy. Lots of banging and clanging going on down there or is that normal on the new bikes. Maybe it's because my other bike has a open primary belt drive and I'm just not used to hearing noise. :scratch:
Quote from: Master Chief on March 04, 2015, 11:24:19 PM
I can't find it but I think I read on here that the '14 models came with a newly designed comp that was much better. All I know is that the other day I road my '14 Ultra around the parking lot without my ear plugs and damn that thing is noisy. Lots of banging and clanging going on down there or is that normal on the new bikes. Maybe it's because my other bike has a open primary belt drive and I'm just not used to hearing noise. :scratch:
I've heard this a lot. Hense, the PEEK washer. :wink:
Ron
Master Chief- My 14 FLHTK sounds like a Mercedez when I have earplugs in.
Quote from: Super Dave on March 05, 2015, 03:16:32 PM
Master Chief- My 14 FLHTK sounds like a Mercedez when I have earplugs in.
Diesel?
I bought a 14 street glide the second week they were out for some testing (not comp related but for ecm/tuning) I only put 3400 miles on that bike before I sold it and in that time I had the comp replaced under warranty I sold that bike to a customer of mine and he has put another 24000 miles on it and had the comp in for warranty also so they are still failing, both versions that came out after 2014 are failing.
Quote from: Sham Rock on March 05, 2015, 05:29:12 PM
I bought a 14 street glide the second week they were out for some testing (not comp related but for ecm/tuning) I only put 3400 miles on that bike before I sold it and in that time I had the comp replaced under warranty I sold that bike to a customer of mine and he has put another 24000 miles on it and had the comp in for warranty also so they are still failing, both versions that came out after 2014 are failing.
That is more common then just your case.
Ron
With no disrespect to the folks posting here, I believe Compensator threads have replaced oil threads for this winter. :wink: :potstir:
BTW, I am waiting for that Baker comp to come in. Meantime, the Evolution sprocket makes it roll. Well, it would if we could roll here.
I got tired a few weeks ago waiting on the Baker Comp to come out of the shute. I went ahead and bought the latest HD comp with the oil catch. I also bought and installed the GMR Compensaver along with it. Installed the Compensaver per instructions which eliminated the roller bearings that came with the HD Comp and utilized the GMR Peek washer. That did the trick as far as primary noise and the shifter clicks into gear instead of clunking into gear.
I am hoping I have this primary pretty much bulletproof as possible with this set up. In my minds eye, I can see oil saturating everything inside that primary from front to back.
Quote from: WI Bob on March 07, 2015, 04:13:15 AM
With no disrespect to the folks posting here, I believe Compensator threads have replaced oil threads for this winter. :wink: :potstir:
BTW, I am waiting for that Baker comp to come in. Meantime, the Evolution sprocket makes it roll. Well, it would if we could roll here.
Need some snow chains Bob. :teeth:
Hey, I mentioned oil in my post! ;D
Need some snow chains Bob. :teeth:
[/quote]
Yes, I do. And a bunch of street sweepers to clear the salt off the roads. The temps are coming around nicely now. :scoot:
Quote from: Havoc37 on March 05, 2015, 05:29:12 PM
I bought a 14 street glide the second week they were out for some testing (not comp related but for ecm/tuning) I only put 3400 miles on that bike before I sold it and in that time I had the comp replaced under warranty I sold that bike to a customer of mine and he has put another 24000 miles on it and had the comp in for warranty also so they are still failing, both versions that came out after 2014 are failing.
There are 2 versions of the 2014 comp.? I am only aware of only one version, can somebody explain the difference in the 2 (2014 comps.)?
Quote from: Havoc37 on March 05, 2015, 05:29:12 PM
I bought a 14 street glide the second week they were out for some testing (not comp related but for ecm/tuning) I only put 3400 miles on that bike before I sold it and in that time I had the comp replaced under warranty I sold that bike to a customer of mine and he has put another 24000 miles on it and had the comp in for warranty also so they are still failing, both versions that came out after 2014 are failing.
There are 2 versions of the 2014 comp.? I am only aware of only one version, can somebody explain the difference in the 2 (2014 comps.)?
Quote from: Richard K on March 04, 2015, 05:49:56 PM
:chop:
Max you heard correctly. I was informed it was a "non-disclosure" and it carries years past not being associated with the MoCo. Ask yourselves just how many Harley reps have you ever seen post anything on this topic.
The new comp is lasting longer and that along with the dealers being more quick to replace the comp without too much hassle has proven to quiet down the complaints. They are still failing and on that you can take to the bank.
How about some proven info on oiling a comp. The OEM retainer and intake covers the sprocket bore and thrust especially when lots of oil is available to the OEM scoop. It is inadequate to push oil in any quantity to the rear for the rest of the working parts. Some yes but way short of what is required to provide a respectable service life span.
If you discharge a liberal and constant oil flow into the spokes at the center most point that will lube everything. When the oil is flowing into the spinning spokes they break the oil up and creates a forceful splash. A small percentage is thrown to the cover thus the constant and increased flow to the OEM scoop. The majority is forced all through the interior of the unit before being thrown out. Thus the required constant flow. This includes the shaft extension and cam splines where they are liberally and constantly lubricated. Needless to say the cam ramps and spokes are also well lubed. The springs do receive some oil between them but as stated they are all but sealed by its design. So flow oil into it and all is lubed and life is substantially expanded.
We still are finding noise the main complaint and the removal of the roller thrust remedies much of that.
RichardK
Richard, are you still hearing complaints about comp. chatter on start up for a minute or so before the comp. gets oiled? There has to be a reason why some get chatter on start up and some don't.
While examining 2 (2014 comps.) I noticed one of the spring packs had a whole lot of imperfections on the inner hole of the spring, and the other spring pack was nice and smooth. Could it be possible that the spring pack with the ridges on the inner hole are getting hung up on the machining marks on the comp. spline just long enough to cause that short chatter until that area gets lubed to prevent the chatter...... regardless of the ridges on the spring pack hole?
At the end of the summer I polished the spring pack holes and I also polished the machining marks on the splines and the chatter stopped on start up. It was at the end of summer so I do not have enough time on start ups to say the polishing fixed the problem for sure....... I appreciate any thoughts.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on March 07, 2015, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: Havoc37 on March 05, 2015, 05:29:12 PM
I bought a 14 street glide the second week they were out for some testing (not comp related but for ecm/tuning) I only put 3400 miles on that bike before I sold it and in that time I had the comp replaced under warranty I sold that bike to a customer of mine and he has put another 24000 miles on it and had the comp in for warranty also so they are still failing, both versions that came out after 2014 are failing.
There are 2 versions of the 2014 comp.? I am only aware of only one version, can somebody explain the difference in the 2 (2014 comps.)?Quote from: Richard K on March 04, 2015, 05:49:56 PM
:chop:
Max you heard correctly. I was informed it was a "non-disclosure" and it carries years past not being associated with the MoCo. Ask yourselves just how many Harley reps have you ever seen post anything on this topic.
The new comp is lasting longer and that along with the dealers being more quick to replace the comp without too much hassle has proven to quiet down the complaints. They are still failing and on that you can take to the bank.
How about some proven info on oiling a comp. The OEM retainer and intake covers the sprocket bore and thrust especially when lots of oil is available to the OEM scoop. It is inadequate to push oil in any quantity to the rear for the rest of the working parts. Some yes but way short of what is required to provide a respectable service life span.
If you discharge a liberal and constant oil flow into the spokes at the center most point that will lube everything. When the oil is flowing into the spinning spokes they break the oil up and creates a forceful splash. A small percentage is thrown to the cover thus the constant and increased flow to the OEM scoop. The majority is forced all through the interior of the unit before being thrown out. Thus the required constant flow. This includes the shaft extension and cam splines where they are liberally and constantly lubricated. Needless to say the cam ramps and spokes are also well lubed. The springs do receive some oil between them but as stated they are all but sealed by its design. So flow oil into it and all is lubed and life is substantially expanded.
We still are finding noise the main complaint and the removal of the roller thrust remedies much of that.
RichardK
Richard, are you still hearing complaints about comp. chatter on start up for a minute or so before the comp. gets oiled? There has to be a reason why some get chatter on start up and some don't.
While examining 2 (2014 comps.) I noticed one of the spring packs had a whole lot of imperfections on the inner hole of the spring, and the other spring pack was nice and smooth. Could it be possible that the spring pack with the ridges on the inner hole are getting hung up on the machining marks on the comp. spline just long enough to cause that short chatter until that area gets lubed to prevent the chatter...... regardless of the ridges on the spring pack hole?
At the end of the summer I polished the spring pack holes and I also polished the machining marks on the splines and the chatter stopped on start up. It was at the end of summer so I do not have enough time on start ups to say the polishing fixed the problem for sure....... I appreciate any thoughts.
Not Richard but that's tough to answer. No two comps are the same. No two bikes idle the same. Chain tensioners set differently plus different fetishes of oils, and so on.. Interesting comment on they chatter until the lube hits them however. :wink:
One interesting thing about disc springs is they wear in from operation at the edge contact points. If you remove and reinstall them, there will be a slight increase of metal in the oil from once again the parts getting acquainted. Then the metal in the oil reduces again. Ran into this on Rotax gear boxes. They run 12 discs for the spring on the compensator for the propeller redrive unit. First 10 hours a fluid change is needed, lots of metal, then it stops. Next change interval no debri. If the discs are disturbed again, the metal returns while the edges mate up again. Same thing goes on with the HD comps although the amount would be less on the magnet from my experience. The other main thing is erratic running or rough idle and compensators are not compatible. Any idle with these newer comps below 1000 rpm is asking for noise. 1050-1100 would be better.
Ron
Ron
:chop:
What Ron said..
Not had much feedback on the startup noise you are describing so would have to say it is the exception. The as-cast on the ramp valley can have a small hump on it and that took some time for us to figure out. It caused the spokes when crossing the bottom of the ramp to ever-so-slightly bounce making noises. That just needs to be dressed down slightly with a drum sander and noise is greatly improved. However, only a hand full of those out of the total.
We did not go deeply into the springs so I can only say what I think but no solid data on it. I agree the ID of the springs is more than necessary for the shaft extension. To me, that related more to a balancing issue than anything else. With correct preload the springs don't move much as far as we have been able to determine. Ron is correct with the seating process. The assembly being mostly as-cast there is a lot of that happening. So if you pull the comp you should mark the position of things so the sprocket and cam go back in the same timing.. Saves on the wear factor some. Springs not that important to keep position on.
Now if the spokes wear and the sprocket bore wears then spring preload is reduced or lost and then the springs will be more likely to move around. I can see how that could contribute to noises. I have tried to move the large spring on units and with good preload I can't move them with any ease but the ones with the more significant spoke wear I was able to move the disc some. That is about what I know on this specific point.
Good observation though and if cleaning up the surfaces as you have has helped then great. We are always learning on this topic,,, always.
THX
RichardK
My bike has been dead quiet at start up, but would start making a racket after 30 seconds or so, which I assumed was associated to a warm up step change. It would quiet down quickly and just make a mild noise after. I don't know how the compensator would be dry after sitting on the side stand with a full primary. Seems like the compensator would be partially submerged.
Quote from: rageglide on March 07, 2015, 08:23:49 PM
My bike has been dead quiet at start up, but would start making a racket after 30 seconds or so, which I assumed was associated to a warm up step change. It would quiet down quickly and just make a mild noise after. I don't know how the compensator would be dry after sitting on the side stand with a full primary. Seems like the compensator would be partially submerged.
Not even close to being submerged.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 08, 2015, 08:43:34 AM
Quote from: rageglide on March 07, 2015, 08:23:49 PM
My bike has been dead quiet at start up, but would start making a racket after 30 seconds or so, which I assumed was associated to a warm up step change. It would quiet down quickly and just make a mild noise after. I don't know how the compensator would be dry after sitting on the side stand with a full primary. Seems like the compensator would be partially submerged.
Not even close to being submerged.
Ron
Ok. I just presumed it was. So if it's not submerged at all, then I can't see how any oil gets in there after start up and would quiet it down, unless there's a compensaver in play. I chalked up quiet start up to my tune being a bit better during the initial Warmup steps.
Bob
:chop:
:up:
Don't know if it helps but I've been starting mine while it's still on the side stand. Currently 47 K miles on the OEM. Just a slight clunk at shut-down.
Quote from: MaxxV4 on March 08, 2015, 03:43:54 PM
Don't know if it helps but I've been starting mine while it's still on the side stand. Currently 47 K miles on the OEM. Just a slight clunk at shut-down.
:up: :up: Never even thought of that!
This is an interesting point.
We need a study of bikes started on their sidestands vs started upright for compensator damage due to lack of lube.
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 04:06:29 PM
Quote from: MaxxV4 on March 08, 2015, 03:43:54 PM
Don't know if it helps but I've been starting mine while it's still on the side stand. Currently 47 K miles on the OEM. Just a slight clunk at shut-down.
:up: :up: Never even thought of that!
This is an interesting point.
We need a study of bikes started on their sidestands vs started upright for compensator damage due to lack of lube.
Wouldn't it be easier to just lube the comp, rather then be concerned what positon the bike is in when started? That's no way to enjoy a bike if one worries about that kinda "Potty mouth". I really don't think it matters for starting or idling because it's spinning in both cases and flinging the oil off that settled on it on the last shut down.
Oil level, even on the stand isn't high enough to make any difference.
Ron
:chop:
:up: :up: :up: :up: What Ron said :up: :up: :up: :up:
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
I almost always start the bike on its jiffy stand. I usually start it then go back inside and put on my jacket, gloves or just to put on the sunglasses and say I'll be back.
My bike has the basket for the springs attached to the stator flywheel, Dyna. I only experience clack on startup. Its pretty loud. Actually sounds like something broke inside. But no, everything is OK. Does NOT clack when I shut it off. Sometimes I think I can hear it when I'm riding, don't really know for sure.
Anyways just yesterday I took a pic of the spring pack. The compensator and primary have been off all winter. It seems to have a small puddle of oil in the bottom.
Say does anyone think that the oil could be pulled in by just simple contacting the slashing oil?
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
Quote from: N-gin on March 08, 2015, 07:40:47 PM
I almost always start the bike on its jiffy stand. I usually start it then go back inside and put on my jacket, gloves or just to put on the sunglasses and say I'll be back.
My bike has the basket for the springs attached to the stator flywheel, Dyna. I only experience clack on startup. Its pretty loud. Actually sounds like something broke inside. But no, everything is OK. Does NOT clack when I shut it off. Sometimes I think I can hear it when I'm riding, don't really know for sure.
Anyways just yesterday I took a pic of the spring pack. The compensator and primary have been off all winter. It seems to have a small puddle of oil in the bottom.
Say does anyone think that the oil could be pulled in by just simple contacting the slashing oil?
No, it will not pull oil in. Oil would need to be close to the retainer to have any hope. Less then that it becomes an oil slinger, taking any oil that's near the center and moving it outwards and off. If you have that kind of racket with the SE comp, you have some serious issues. If it's the 07 style, perfectly normal.
Ron
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
[/quote]
So earlier 5 speed models did not have most of the issues with comps that we are seeing now, correct? And taller gearing adds to the stress put on comps used in the 6 speed models that we see today, right? What about changing the gears in the primary back to smaller gears used in the 5 speeds, would that ratio change work better to preserve the comps? I did notice a big change when I changed the drive gear from a 32 tooth to a 31, seems small but it did make the bike easier to keep in that 3000+ rpm sweet spot. This is all very confusing for me, I am not on the level some are here so I need to ask basic questions to get a a better picture of what exactly might be going on. I will say that comp problems never surfaced for me on my 5 speed bikes but my '07 FLSTC comp went south in the first 5000 miles and was replaced by the earlier SE comp, that comp now has over 30K on it and is still going strong. Lucky? I will take whatever I get at this point!
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
Not sure how valid some of you reasoning is... For 1, I've got a 2000 dyna that has a 4 5/8 stroke and 3.08 grearing and run it at 2500 a lot, Comp has 30 K on this way plus 15K as a high compression 95 and 7K as Stage 1 88.. Way hasn't the comp worn out of it?
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 09, 2015, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
Not sure how valid some of you reasoning is... For 1, I've got a 2000 dyna that has a 4 5/8 stroke and 3.08 grearing and run it at 2500 a lot, Comp has 30 K on this way plus 15K as a high compression 95 and 7K as Stage 1 88.. Way hasn't the comp worn out of it?
Your bike is a dyna (light) plus you are using a form of an oiler on it, which confirms the benifits of adding oil to the comp :wink: Next question?
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
I totally understand what your saying Ron. BUT the lugging/rpm arguement does not hold up logically. It is definitely possible but it still doesn't make sense that more comps aren't failing if it is truly an rpm associated issue.
My bike gets ridden as low as 2000 rpm (not lugging either btw) consistently for almost 13000 miles now. No noise.
My 2 old neighbors bikes and the 2 bikes I am maintaining here in Alabama are all doing ok with 10,000-38000 miles on them. All these guys effectively run 2000-3000 rpm usually and none of them have had a failure or noise yet.
The 2 failures I have found were in a 09 dyna with short gearing and a driver that has a on/off throttle mentality his first comp lasted 5k miles the second is fine another 5k miles later.
The other failure is a 12 ultra classic with a meticulous retiree who never goes above 3500 or below 2500. This particular rider is on his third compensator in under 20k all freeway miles.
The root cause seems to be a quality control issue of inconsistent hardening on the compensator?, inconsistent spring tension? and maybe the compensator doesn't stand up to certain driver styles?
I figured I would destroy my compensator, I love hard downshifting, I love to hammer the gears merging onto on ramps, I drive my bike at least 50% if not 70% of its miles commuting. I love hearing that pipe wfo shifting be it up or down... When I am cruising I love to run as low as rpm as possible. I should be the death knell for a compensator but I am not yet... We will see.
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 09, 2015, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
Some people have REPEATED failures.
At work I would call this an OPERATOR INDUCED PROBLEM??? What are the odds "rider a" would have 2,3 maybe 4 failures in 40k miles while riders b-z have no failures...
How can so many be failing when so many are not?
These would be questions to ponder
The reasons have been covered many times. Basically if you never let the engine drop below 3k at any point in the operation and have it in a gear lower then desired, along with short trips you will have the longest comp life possible. Both are contradictory to operating a long stroke v twin cruiser engine and shouldn't need to be operated that way to save a component. High rpm, lower gear all place the comps operational range to a lesser travel so even without decent oiling it has more life. No component I know of that's under that kind of frictional loading will last without some form of lube. Take the gear box for example. Drain the oil out of it and see how long it lasts even though the gear quality is good. I really is that simple, when it comes to the comp as well. Pre 07 bikes had lower gearing and a comp design with less rotation so it averaged out to better comp life. The lower level of cushioning from these earlier comps would likely force the rider to operate a slightly higher rpm as well to get into the smoother range. Shorter stroke and less power contribute to running a bit more rpm per gear as well. Higher rpms basically don't require as much cushion effect from the comp for smoothness. Fast foward to 07+. Tall gearing, many operate the engines at lower rpms for the same speed, so the increased comp travel was needed to bring back smooth operation in the cruise ranges. Travel within the comp increased as did then need to lube it better, a fact that seemed to be missed by MoCo.
Ron
I totally understand what your saying Ron. BUT the lugging/rpm arguement does not hold up logically. It is definitely possible but it still doesn't make sense that more comps aren't failing if it is truly an rpm associated issue.
My bike gets ridden as low as 2000 rpm (not lugging either btw) consistently for almost 13000 miles now. No noise.
My 2 old neighbors bikes and the 2 bikes I am maintaining here in Alabama are all doing ok with 10,000-38000 miles on them. All these guys effectively run 2000-3000 rpm usually and none of them have had a failure or noise yet.
The 2 failures I have found were in a 09 dyna with short gearing and a driver that has a on/off throttle mentality his first comp lasted 5k miles the second is fine another 5k miles later.
The other failure is a 12 ultra classic with a meticulous retiree who never goes above 3500 or below 2500. This particular rider is on his third compensator in under 20k all freeway miles.
The root cause seems to be a quality control issue of inconsistent hardening on the compensator?, inconsistent spring tension? and maybe the compensator doesn't stand up to certain driver styles?
I figured I would destroy my compensator, I love hard downshifting, I love to hammer the gears merging onto on ramps, I drive my bike at least 50% if not 70% of its miles commuting. I love hearing that pipe wfo shifting be it up or down... When I am cruising I love to run as low as rpm as possible. I should be the death knell for a compensator but I am not yet... We will see.
Entirely possible between batches the hardness is different. Something that really hasn't been looked into that I know of, or there's another hidden culprit in play somewhere not yet determined. :nix: What I see is if we have managed to add life to the bad ones from the oiler, how long would the good ones last? We have no control over what's in the box when someone buys one as the starting point.
Ron
Anyone try that Micro Blue treatment on a comp?
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 09, 2015, 12:03:45 PM
Anyone try that Micro Blue treatment on a comp?
If I was to anything experimental to a comp it would be nitriding but the unknowns of going this hard would need some testing. This is often done on crankshafts. Just about wear resistant after that.
Ron
Just curious. Seems like everything that can be thought of has been done.
I don't think HD would have changed the design, and added some lubrication to the compensator, if they felt it were a pure quality / bad luck of the draw situation. Nor would Hoban Brothers be investing, nor Baker investing. And of course Compensavor investing, and being the first to the scene. Let's not also forget the stock compensator from 2007 to 2013? that were clunking and causing starter kickback.
There's been way to many that get replaced under warranty, and by the cost of the owner for it to be a random occurrence IMHO.
Revision after revision after revision. :banghead: I'd be embarrassed to call myself a driveline engineer for Harley Davidson :emoGroan:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 09, 2015, 12:47:58 PM
I don't think HD would have changed the design, and added some lubrication to the compensator, if they felt it were a pure quality / bad luck of the draw situation. Nor would Hoban Brothers be investing, nor Baker investing. And of course Compensavor investing, and being the first to the scene. Let's not also forget the stock compensator from 2007 to 2013? that were clunking and causing starter kickback.
There's been way to many that get replaced under warranty, and by the cost of the owner for it to be a random occurrence IMHO.
I am convinced 100% the compensator needs better oiling and better design. Absolutely... Why has the MOCO not done more to address this? $$$ of course.
I don't put ANYTHING STUPID beyond any corporation anymore. Too many years watching corporations be stupid.
In 1998 I left a company named TAKATA after they decided to change how we did maintenance and non destructive testing in quality control. You might recognize that companies name. They have HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of airbag inflators being recalled going back to 1999. Which happens to be when the last properly trained maintenance guy under me left and they no longer maintained a proper vacuum in the inflator before sealing it. When the inflator is not perfectly sealed it then sucks in moist air due to the sodium azide being hygroscopic and either creates crystals that are instable and explode or neutralizes the sodium azide making inert or exploding in an uncontrolled fashion with dangerous pressue spikes. It took 8 years to become a recognized problem and 15years to be a scandal and it is costing MILLIONS of dollars.
Every manager and member of our maintenance team knew all this was going to happen in 1998 but Corporate saved about 60 man hours a week in maintenance and quality control in those interim years... The people that are now being held accountable never even knew the dangers they were creating as the company also stopped training them on this "possible" problem.
The moco has done the EXACT SAME THING with cam production recently resulting in improperly ground cams to eat up 110 motors and rushmore motors in recent years... Those cam recalls and cam failures were 100% engineering and quality control issues. Cam grinding machines built and calivrated in metric settings then poorly changed over to sae measurements as well as programs created in Germany and not updated properly when installed in America as there was a pissing contest between operators+engineering+the installation technicians and the company... TYPICAL AMERICAN MANUFACTURING BS... Whats most emberassing to the moc is this cam issue has happened at least 3 different times and each time it took dozens of motors eating themselves to figure it out due to spotty quality control and programs for loading and unloading that are unreliable.
Moco knows how to fix the compensator issue once and for all but they do not wish to spend the $$$ to do it properly. THAT SIMPLE
I have a heck of a good idea how to make one that last a fairly long time. And when it needs repaired it could be done at home with about $10.00 worth of parts and 15 minutes of work once you open the primary up. Hell it would not even need to come off the bike ! But i have neither the finances or the resources to make one. If i did i be making them for you folks.
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 08:19:50 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 09, 2015, 07:46:02 AM
Not sure how valid some of you reasoning is... For 1, I've got a 2000 dyna that has a 4 5/8 stroke and 3.08 grearing and run it at 2500 a lot, Comp has 30 K on this way plus 15K as a high compression 95 and 7K as Stage 1 88.. Way hasn't the comp worn out of it?
Your bike is a dyna (light) plus you are using a form of an oiler on it, which confirms the benifits of adding oil to the comp :wink: Next question?
Ron
The Dyna does not have anything done to move oil in the primary.. In fact it still has the original chain tensioner.. Chain was worn out tho..
Light bike but enough TQ applied to kill a SnS 1 1/2 inch crank in about 20K. Crank pin has the same flex points on it as the crank that Randy showed.
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 09, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Moco knows how to fix the compensator issue once and for all but they do not wish to spend the $$$ to do it properly. THAT SIMPLE
I wonder about that.
Baker is a pretty smart guy, so are the guys at the other aftermarket companies working on the problem and nobody has come out with a hands down cure including Harley's three attempts.
Every Twin cam produced from 07 up is a potential customer so demand is not the problem, the right cure seems to be the problem.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2015, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 09, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Moco knows how to fix the compensator issue once and for all but they do not wish to spend the $$$ to do it properly. THAT SIMPLE
I wonder about that.
Baker is a pretty smart guy, so are the guys at the other aftermarket companies working on the problem and nobody has come out with a hands down cure including Harley's three attempts.
Every Twin cam produced from 07 up is a potential customer so demand is not the problem, the right cure seems to be the problem.
The right cure is there. They have the attitude their "Potty mouth" don't stink and refuse to use it. :wink: Besides people will keep buying the sub standard crap to live the dream and they know it.
Ron
Ain't that the truth... of course their biggest customer base is switching over to walkers...
I think the best we can hope for is a class action suit to reimburse those who have had to buy a replacement comp... heck, while their at it, class action the cranks too. I'll keep my receipts... lol
Quote from: rageglide on March 09, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
Ain't that the truth... of course their biggest customer base is switching over to walkers...
I think the best we can hope for is a class action suit to reimburse those who have had to buy a replacement comp... heck, while their at it, class action the cranks too. I'll keep my receipts... lol
:hyst:
Ron
What is the big deal about this comp- BS i have it all figured out after only 3 beers. My 58 flh had a simple cap in frt. pri-cover , pop it off stick a grease gun on the comp zerk fitting, couple pumps :oil::and your good for 1500 miles. Now that sys grease been around you could go longer. :beer: :beer: :beer:
You could even index the rear wheel position with a hole at the top of the primary to match up to the location of your zerk fitting. Rubber grommet over the hole when done and off you go.
I saw and held baker's new comp in my hands today. Even got to take it apart. Seems like it will work very nicely. I am impressed with it however I am not a trained engineer. I majored in science
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
80% of HDs never leave the garage.
No miles, no problem.
Seriously, somewhere I read that the average miles put on a motorcycle was something like 3,500 per year.
FWIW, my post was tongue in cheek since I have an Evo 30 tooth sprocket. I don't have a disposable compensator. But I do have a semi disposable crank that shows no wear at this point.
Quote from: PoorUB on March 10, 2015, 06:51:38 PM
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on March 08, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Somewhere along the way we are all missing the point...
The design of the comp is poor....
However at least 80%-90% of all compensators never show a problem???
80% of HDs never leave the garage.
No miles, no problem.
Seriously, somewhere I read that the average miles put on a motorcycle was something like 3,500 per year.
I think it's lower than that! Sadly. I know a guy who bought a new ducati in 2004 and it's got 900 miles on it. All miles put on in the first month... He's owned multiple bikes, but just doesnt' ride much.... lol if at all. An Owner.
Yesterday, Baker said will ship in may
I have a 2009 Tri-Glide owned since new have approx. 42000 miles on it. I open up the primary 2 years ago to install new clutch along with a hayden tensioner. At that time took a look at the comp. very little fretting and small amount of wear. My question is, It is on it's last year of extended warrenty do I need to complain and get the comp. replaced or ride and replace with Baker on my dime?
Any time you can get a replacement for free, I would do it. If nothing else, you will see how well the Baker holds up over time.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 11, 2015, 06:56:04 AM
Any time you can get a replacement for free, I would do it. If nothing else, you will see how well the Baker holds up over time.
Even if it's committing fraud?
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 07:09:10 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 11, 2015, 06:56:04 AM
Any time you can get a replacement for free, I would do it. If nothing else, you will see how well the Baker holds up over time.
Even if it's committing fraud?
Of course not Max. I assume the complaint would have something behind it. As such they will not replace it.
Doesn't the people honouring the ESp have to see that a part actually failed first. If it hasn't failed, you can't just get it replaced because it might fail, right??
That to me is neither a warranty or esp issue. Buffalo
"In the event it goes south and
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 11, 2015, 06:56:04 AMAny time you can get a replacement for free, I would do it. If nothing else, you will see how well the Baker holds up over time.
"
fixed...
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 07:09:10 AMEven if it's committing fraud?
Late to the game on this aspect of the thread, but while reading through it I was thinking the exact same thing just before I got to your reply. Verbatim.
What is the definition of "Failed"?
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
All I can say is the new one sucks...
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
All I can say is the new one sucks...
It's a little early, but I'll drink to that too...
Sounds like lots of Fraud happens.
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
All I can say is the new one sucks...
Did you update to the latest version recently?
Ron
Thanks guys, you might be right Max. Just did not want to go a month over and it go out. Might open it up next week and take another look at it has been almost 20000 since I looked last.
Quote from: rbabos on March 11, 2015, 01:21:30 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
All I can say is the new one sucks...
Did you update to the latest version recently?
Ron
Coupla days ago.
Having a low mile 2013 Slim I have so much to look forward to. I got to talk to Mr Baker at Rapids City last summer, good guy, fun to talk to. I'll be in line some day. :chop:
Yeah, I have a 2008 Fat bob I just bought with only 4 K on it but after reading all this crapola about these later models I don't think I'll even put tags on it and just sell it. I don't need all this drama and just want to ride. I think I'll look for a nice FXR, you boys can have fun fixing the latest n not so greatest. To me, all the issues these newer models are having are outrages. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about the newer bikes but if I don't have piece of mind in my ride it ruins the entire experience.
Quote from: Sc00ter on March 11, 2015, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
What is the definition of "Failed"?
You hit the gas and it don't move..
I'll drink to that. How many of these crappy compensators do that...
All I can say is the new one sucks...
Why?
Has an idle rattle that seams about 10 times worse than the early SE that I removed.
Add:
Heck you blip the throttle it rattles..
Max, did you get the PEEK washer?
I'm going beltdrive.
Does anyone know if testing is complete and if they are ready to ship?
Testing is not complete not ready to ship yet
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 07:03:58 PM
Max, did you get the PEEK washer?
Not yet.. Looking into it..
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 11, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
All the test comps have been out for awhile, May.
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 11, 2015, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 11, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
All the test comps have been out for awhile, May.
Good to know. Herd it was April.
:wink: :wink:
Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 08:31:00 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 07:03:58 PM
Max, did you get the PEEK washer?
Not yet.. Looking into it.. Do you have any crank work done to the motor? what year bike? .........Maybe its the rough idle making it Rattle....... :wink:
In my opinion cam profile has a lot to do with the comps. rattling at idle or not.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on March 12, 2015, 07:24:44 AM
:wink: :wink:Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2015, 08:31:00 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 11, 2015, 07:03:58 PM
Max, did you get the PEEK washer?
Not yet.. Looking into it.. Do you have any crank work done to the motor? what year bike? .........Maybe its the rough idle making it Rattle....... :wink:
I'm sure the idle is making it rattle.. No work to the crank.. Crank has 67K on it.. Measures 0.004 runout on the drive side.. Last time I checked the pinion it was 0.0035..
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to reading what the test results are. My SE comp has about 7k on it and its already making noise.
Well its 87* outside and I think im gunna go beat up on my comp for a few.
Quote from: FSG on January 07, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
I'd like to see those coming out with replacement Comps do something with the reversible Sprocket Shaft Spacer 24009-06, by that I mean make a non-reversible one that provides more contact with the inside of the rotor.
Jumping into the way back machine...
I was looking at this. How can you get the spacer wrong? The splines are cut so you can't make a mistake. Well... unless you put the cam on the spacer first. But, even then, isn't it obvious?
[attach=1]
Here's a picture of 14+ and the previous SE style that was on my '12.
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 13, 2015, 02:52:18 PM
Well its 87* outside and I think im gunna go beat up on my comp for a few.
95* here today... wth. I should be riding, not wrenching.
Quote from: rageglide on March 14, 2015, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 13, 2015, 02:52:18 PM
Well its 87* outside and I think im gunna go beat up on my comp for a few.
95* here today... wth. I should be riding, not wrenching.
55 here today, and I did ride! :bike:
QuoteJumping into the way back machine...
I see your point with those splined units, but I was referring to the spacer between the rotor and the leftside crank bearing.
Quote from: FSG on March 14, 2015, 05:22:09 PM
QuoteJumping into the way back machine...
I see your point with those splined units, but I was referring to the spacer between the rotor and the leftside crank bearing.
ohhh Ok, my bad. The chamfered end vs non.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 14, 2015, 05:11:09 PM
Quote from: rageglide on March 14, 2015, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 13, 2015, 02:52:18 PM
Well its 87* outside and I think im gunna go beat up on my comp for a few.
95* here today... wth. I should be riding, not wrenching.
55 here today, and I did ride! :bike:
:up: Was just talking to my bud about that. m-f ride, weekend no ride.. wtf!
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 12, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 11, 2015, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 11, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
All the test comps have been out for awhile, May.
Good to know. Herd it was April.
You heard right.
April or May?
2015 or 2016?
2015 :slap:
60 degrees and no ride. Did do some work to the bike though.
Quote from: Mark P on March 16, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 12, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 11, 2015, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 11, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
All the test comps have been out for awhile, May.
Good to know. Herd it was April.
You heard right.
Any plans on optional gear ratio changes? Would be a nice touch, especially for those of us with the tall 2.79 gearing.
I wonder if the baker gear change from the older comp will fit the new?
was thinking of going down a tooth myself.
I called baker yesterday, they told me my comp will be shipping last this month early next. So I could possibly see it in a couple weeks. I've been waiting 3 weeks for the AIM Cf2 clutch anyways. I think the customer really wants to get his bike back together :banghead:
Quote from: 07heri on March 17, 2015, 05:04:15 PM
Quote from: Mark P on March 16, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 12, 2015, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 11, 2015, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 11, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
I think April is the target date plus most of the test comps are still out for beta testing.
All the test comps have been out for awhile, May.
Good to know. Herd it was April.
You heard right.
Any plans on optional gear ratio changes? Would be a nice touch, especially for those of us with the tall 2.79 gearing.
At some point.
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2015, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 09, 2015, 12:03:45 PM
Anyone try that Micro Blue treatment on a comp?
If I was to anything experimental to a comp it would be nitriding but the unknowns of going this hard would need some testing. This is often done on crankshafts. Just about wear resistant after that.
Ron
As far as how hard they will be I herd they are going to be Rockwell 50.
I got excited the other day when I received an e-mail from Baker saying my order "was processed and being shipped", I almost forgot that this was coming as well. Sure is purty.
Ohhhh! Nice!
Quote from: harleytuner on March 20, 2015, 02:05:06 PM
I got excited the other day when I received an e-mail from Baker saying my order "was processed and being shipped", I almost forgot that this was coming as well. Sure is purty.
Does that cover have outboard bearing supports?
Also can you remove the front cover to get to the crank nut.. One of the things I hate about HDs is no easy access to crank rotation.. I've thought about finding EGC standard covers and welding on an access cover then PCing them textured black..
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 20, 2015, 02:20:42 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 20, 2015, 02:05:06 PM
I got excited the other day when I received an e-mail from Baker saying my order "was processed and being shipped", I almost forgot that this was coming as well. Sure is purty.
Does that cover have outboard bearing supports?
No. It's heavy to. Those are the only 2 downfalls with it. The removable comp. Cover is a sweet featurelike max pointed out. Another plus is the ring behind the derby cover is a also removable. Looks like you can do a clutch change without removing the primary. Ill get some better pictures tomorrow. From the inside as well. There's a ton of money going into this primary, not only the cover and the baker comp. But it's getting the AIM CF2 clutch as well. You could do a healthy big bore with heads and cams for what this all costs lol. Maybe the owner will come in.
At you saying the cover dosntcome off the front.
I thought it did :scratch:
It does
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Bully-Primary-Installation-Instructions-2007-Later-V3-31213.pdf (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Bully-Primary-Installation-Instructions-2007-Later-V3-31213.pdf)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZY4RYcx.png)
Me liky alot
Needs an optional skid pad to protect the derby area. :wink: -Rick
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on March 21, 2015, 06:52:10 AM
Needs an optional skid pad to protect the derby area. :wink: -Rick
For the price of it, yes.
Ron
It's a little flashy, expensive and heavy for my tastes. But I really like the design intent. I really miss the inspection panel on the newer outers.
There is a market for primary covers with access panels for sure.......... but the price has to be rite. Whats the Baker unit run? looks like a nice piece.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on March 22, 2015, 10:08:26 AM
There is a market for primary covers with access panels for sure.......... but the price has to be rite. Whats the Baker unit run? looks like a nice piece.
It's about 1200 US. Likely 1500+ for me in Canada and for you, more.
Ron
Is the 07 up Primary cover completely different than previous years? I was wondering why you couldn't just slip on a 01-06 cover. Get back the inspection cover. Just curious if anyone knows or tried. Buffalo
That is a sweet piece.
Glad to hear the comp will be out soon, just got a '12 that will need one, so I may wait for the Baker.
Quote from: Buffalo on March 22, 2015, 10:41:05 AM
Is the 07 up Primary cover completely different than previous years? I was wondering why you couldn't just slip on a 01-06 cover. Get back the inspection cover. Just curious if anyone knows or tried. Buffalo
It's completely different!
It is expensive for sure, I think the one I have retails for around 1200, it's 100% billet though. Not cast. They do have them without the contrast cut which is a little less. I can check retail prices when I get to the shop. This one is going on a bike for more than just looks, he keeps gernading clutch baskets (I believe 2 or 3 last year). Even though it's getting an AIM CF2 clutch in it along with the Baker comp, I believe he just wants piece of mind knowing he can inspect everything easier with this setup.
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
I could be wrong but it looks like he is in need of a billet basket from Evo. ect. I made the jump when I heard of baskets failing around the same performance numbers your customer has. Try to get him to pony up for a basket upgrade and keep that beauty of a primary cover from becoming a scatter shield.
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 05:47:50 PM
I could be wrong but it looks like he is in need of a billet basket from Evo. ect. I made the jump when I heard of baskets failing around the same performance numbers your customer has. Try to get him to pony up for a basket upgrade and keep that beauty of a primary cover from becoming a scatter shield.
He ponied up for this http://aim-tamachi.com/collections/cf2-2nd-gen-cf2-performance-clutch/products/cf2-complete-kit-46t-07-and-later-bt-including-06-dyna-with-hydraulic-clutch-control (http://aim-tamachi.com/collections/cf2-2nd-gen-cf2-performance-clutch/products/cf2-complete-kit-46t-07-and-later-bt-including-06-dyna-with-hydraulic-clutch-control)
It should be here tomorrow. I'll snap a picture of it when it gets off the brown truck.
Sorry, I missed that in a previous post of yours. He should be good to go and looking good doing it. That primary cover is a very nice looking piece. Edit: And functional.
QuoteAnd functional
it also lends itself to possible upgrades in the future, outboard clutch bearing support for one
Does the Baker primary cover also have provisions to direct oil into the comp? Sure like the inspection covers, but damn, that sucker is pricey!
Jeff
Quote from: FSG on March 22, 2015, 07:46:00 PM
QuoteAnd functional
it also lends itself to possible upgrades in the future, outboard clutch bearing support for one
:up: :up:
Quote from: akjeff on March 23, 2015, 09:05:01 AM
Does the Baker primary cover also have provisions to direct oil into the comp? Sure like the inspection covers, but damn, that sucker is pricey!
Jeff
I know I wouldn't want to carve up the interior of the Bully if I wanted to run the Compensaver, not sure you even could... But can't see why Baker couldn't create a replacement front cover which adds a deflector to work with the newer SE comp, or channel more oil into Bakers own comp. If they didn't already think of that option, "you're welcome!" :smiled:
Here's the inside.
Nice :up:
that thing would be cheap to produce as a casting
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
It would seem that the gear reduction and the DD7 might be a little counterproductive to each other?
What kind of #s is he turning with that set-up?
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 23, 2015, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
It would seem that the gear reduction and the DD7 might be a little counterproductive to each other?
What kind of #s is he turning with that set-up?
Those are the numbers with that set up. I don't know what all ha been done with the hearing TBH, I know it's not stock. I tuned this bike over a year ago and it was like it is now. It does have a DD7 and chain drive.
Quote from: harleytuner on March 23, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
Here's the inside.
Thanks for the inside view, harleytuner!
Jeff
Quote from: harleytuner on March 23, 2015, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 23, 2015, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
It would seem that the gear reduction and the DD7 might be a little counterproductive to each other?
What kind of #s is he turning with that set-up?
Those are the numbers with that set up. I don't know what all ha been done with the hearing TBH, I know it's not stock. I tuned this bike over a year ago and it was like it is now. It does have a DD7 and chain drive.
I'm sorry, I should have specified the #s on the drag strip :oops:
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 24, 2015, 07:27:39 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 23, 2015, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on March 23, 2015, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
Oh ha. My bad. I believe he's in the mid 7's 1/8th mile. He's only made a few trips down the strip.
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
It would seem that the gear reduction and the DD7 might be a little counterproductive to each other?
What kind of #s is he turning with that set-up?
Those are the numbers with that set up. I don't know what all ha been done with the hearing TBH, I know it's not stock. I tuned this bike over a year ago and it was like it is now. It does have a DD7 and chain drive.
I'm sorry, I should have specified the #s on the drag strip :oops:
Quote from: TorQueInc on March 23, 2015, 12:41:06 PM
Nice :up:
that thing would be cheap to produce as a casting
I would expect a quality casting could be cnc'd finished to look the same as the solid billet carved one for half the price. I've never really understood the boner factor of "billet" marketing. The cool thing about billet in the old days was that you probably made the part your self!
A few more pics.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154929_362.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154929_362.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154941_786.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154941_786.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150127_155720_650.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150127_155720_650.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150127_160205_867.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150127_160205_867.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160533_520.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160533_520.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160554_446.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160554_446.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160828_497.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160828_497.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160914_555.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160914_555.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160945_384.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_160945_384.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154838_806.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154838_806.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154630_224.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154630_224.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154811_993.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150127_154811_993.jpg.html)
Are you expecting the spring cup to rotate on the bolt with it being greased? I would hope it's clamped solid to the extension. :scratch: Grease is just for assembly, right?
Ron
Correct.
Soft02 how many miles you put on it
About 2500.
So these pics aren't from today. You've got 2500 miles on it. What's your impression so far? Are you allowed to talk about it? If not I understand non-disclosure stuff...
These pics have 1500 I think. It was not perfect out of the box. Plenty of tear downs and measuring and adjusting pre load. Now its just right. I'll post pics when I remove it to send back. It does give more feedback vibration than the SE unit but I figured it would due to the spring pack. I like it. Can't wait to get a production unit. Yes I like it. I'm guessing it will be more durable than the se unit with the little amount of oil I have in the primary.
feedback vibration?
...are you saying it caused more vibration than the SE comp?
thanks for the update and the pic's Soft 02! :up:
Ray
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 24, 2015, 06:41:38 PM
These pics have 1500 I think. It was not perfect out of the box. Plenty of tear downs and measuring and adjusting pre load. Now its just right. I'll post pics when I remove it to send back. It does give more feedback vibration than the SE unit but I figured it would due to the spring pack. I like it. Can't wait to get a production unit. Yes I like it. I'm guessing it will be more durable than the se unit with the little amount of oil I have in the primary.
Great info. Thanks! Will be nice to hear how the production version works.
Contrary to some of my posts, I am still happy see a new option hit the streets.
Yes Ray. Not bad just different. I'll be able to make a better comparison once I put the se unit back on. I don't even notice it now. Once we got the pre load correct it smoothed out a bunch. Like I said I'm looking forward to trying the production unit. Don't know if it has anything to do with it being a B motor or not. An alpha motor you might not feel a thing. Word is the slightly modified motor were very smooth.
My main motivator for going with this comp is my low oil level and using the Baker adjuster. Sure would like to see the Dark horse unit hit the market. Like that idea too.
Is Bert or Mark going to send you their latest version to replace this one once your done testing it?
I have been keeping a close eye on this thread.
Thanks for the honest update. :up:
Ray
I'm in line with everyone else. I think one reason I got to test it was I would give an honest opinion and I could get some miles on it. The only odd issue was the crank shaft length of the S&S is longer than OEM. This made for less pre load on the spring pack. Once discovered they sent me out another shaft extension. That made a huge difference in vibration.
just out of curiosity...was that a thread chaser or a tap you had in the end of the crank?
Ratchet tap handle. Gotta clear out the locktite.
On the comp bolt. Is the thread cut or rolled?
Ron
Cut. But Im not sure what the production unit will be like.
Quote from: Soft 02 on March 25, 2015, 05:54:12 AM
Cut. But Im not sure what the production unit will be like.
Rolled , I hope.
Ron
I agree.
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
Just to correct, I already have the an evo basket. N isosues with it, it is a nice piece. The hubs are what I go through monthly.... Waiting on this comp..
Quote from: Burch753 on March 30, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
Just to correct, I already have the an evo basket. N isosues with it, it is a nice piece. The hubs are what I go through monthly.... Waiting on this comp..
Unfortunately no comp ever made will cure the spline issues in the hub. That's a torsional failure from load.
Ron
Right! That is what red loctite is for.
Quote from: Burch753 on March 30, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
Just to correct, I already have the an evo basket. N isosues with it, it is a nice piece. The hubs are what I go through monthly.... Waiting on this comp..
Thanks for clearing that up. I can't keep track. Should be any day now on that comp.....fingers crossed.
Quote from: rbabos on March 30, 2015, 10:39:08 AM
Quote from: Burch753 on March 30, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on March 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
Quote from: jam65 on March 22, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
What does your guy have for power and what clutch basket does he keep blowing up?
He's in the mid 140's HP and TRQ if I remember correctly. Stock baskets with the AIM lock up set up. He's running a BakerDD7 and some gear reduction as well. All that with the Shinko drag radial at the strip is to much for the basket.
Just to correct, I already have the an evo basket. N isosues with it, it is a nice piece. The hubs are what I go through monthly.... Waiting on this comp..
Unfortunately no comp ever made will cure the spline issues in the hub. That's a torsional failure from load.
Ron
BUT... Thats why I have the billet hub from AIM now..... see I told ya!
Quote from: rageglide on March 24, 2015, 09:40:43 AM
Quote from: TorQueInc on March 23, 2015, 12:41:06 PM
Nice :up:
that thing would be cheap to produce as a casting
I would expect a quality casting could be cnc'd finished to look the same as the solid billet carved one for half the price. I've never really understood the boner factor of "billet" marketing. The cool thing about billet in the old days was that you probably made the part your self!
Not into the billet thing at all
Most billet wheels are made from forgings....basically the same process as pistons are made
If there was enough call for an outer like the one in the picture the tooling to make that casting would be less than 5K especially if it will fit in a common flask.
Just shipped mine back to Baker. Going to have to get used to a sloppy SE comp till I get the production unit.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150409_124907_547.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20150409_124907_547.jpg.html)
Shipping mine back on Monday it is a very nice unit i cant wait until the production units are out. Baker Nailed it with this comp. I put just over 900 hard ass miles on the unit they sent me and it worked flawlessly. It is a simple fix to a huge problem.
Any new updates on estimated shipping times?
I think they are going out the door now. Hopefully ill get a tracking # soon.
as of friday..... "design change, should be shipping in a week or two" Been the same answer for a month.
Quote from: Burch753 on April 27, 2015, 01:03:50 PM
as of friday..... "design change, should be shipping in a week or two" Been the same answer for a month.
Will more testing be done with that change?
Ron
Dont think so Ron. Think they just had another idea to increase lubrication flow. Herd testing went real well before the production change.
Looking forward to a tracking number as well, hoping to install mine before we leave for summer vacation in June.
Quote from: Soft 02 on April 27, 2015, 01:16:09 PM
Dont think so Ron. Think they just had another idea to increase lubrication flow. Herd testing went real well before the production change.
Testing went well but made a change for the hell of it. All righty then. Time to get these things out for some real world testing to varify unit. The short term testing I read about proves very little for long term.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on April 27, 2015, 03:35:22 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on April 27, 2015, 01:16:09 PM
Dont think so Ron. Think they just had another idea to increase lubrication flow. Herd testing went real well before the production change.
Testing went well but made a change for the hell of it. All righty then. Time to get these things out for some real world testing to varify unit. The short term testing I read about proves very little for long term.
Ron
I agree it's time. I'm thinking they weren't happy with something they found when getting the test ones back. I'm really getting tired of the it'll shop in 1-2 weeks. Been hearing that for two months now at least. I'm just thankfulful I have understanding customers.
I think that taking their time to release is better than using us as beta testers. I've been burned a couple of times by companies using us as beta testers for their products.
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on April 27, 2015, 03:51:19 PM
I think that taking their time to release is better than using us as beta testers. I've been burned a couple of times by companies using us as beta testers for their products.
I agree with that as well, it they were ready to ship a couple weeks ago and made a design change and are saying they are going to shop in another week to two. So seams to me well be beta testing this lady design change anyways. They shouldn't have taken pre orders on a product that was still in development IMO.
Quote from: harleytuner on April 27, 2015, 04:13:27 PM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on April 27, 2015, 03:51:19 PM
I think that taking their time to release is better than using us as beta testers. I've been burned a couple of times by companies using us as beta testers for their products.
I agree with that as well, it they were ready to ship a couple weeks ago and made a design change and are saying they are going to shop in another week to two. So seams to me well be beta testing this lady design change anyways. They shouldn't have taken pre orders on a product that was still in development IMO.
I think..... They should just listen to the kid and let someone else... do some HARD testing on one... I'm just saying that I have managed to break about every other high dollar component with premium engineering behind it. As a customer on the list, I have no problem being a 'beta' tester, but if/when I grenade this thing my comment will be, "see I'm not just a punk kid who thinks he rides hard." One of my biggest issues in this industry.... I digress. I'll leave this conversation off the boards. I am a believer in Baker products and continue to put them to the test. Patiently waiting to install one and start the race/season
We need someone to do some low rpm touring with it. Not just beat it up. Does no good to just bottom out the spring. We need it to be worked.
Did anyone work the comp?
Might have missed it reading the thread.
Quote from: N-gin on April 28, 2015, 04:34:25 AM
We need someone to do some low rpm touring with it. Not just beat it up. Does no good to just bottom out the spring. We need it to be worked.
Did anyone work the comp?
Might have missed it reading the thread.
Exactly. High load does very little to harm it. Extended mid pressure loading is the true test and this takes many miles for a result. Cracks me up every time I read about someone on a dyno or drag racing thinking this will show faster results in wear.
Ron
Be nice to see a few seasons of riding on this comp. At least Baker will listen if there needs to be a revision.
Quote from: Soft 02 on April 28, 2015, 05:51:42 AM
Be nice to see a few seasons of riding on this comp. At least Baker will listen if there needs to be a revision.
I agree on both comments. One good riding season with different riding styles is fine too.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on April 28, 2015, 05:01:02 AM
Quote from: N-gin on April 28, 2015, 04:34:25 AM
We need someone to do some low rpm touring with it. Not just beat it up. Does no good to just bottom out the spring. We need it to be worked.
Did anyone work the comp?
Might have missed it reading the thread.
Exactly. High load does very little to harm it. Extended mid pressure loading is the true test and this takes many miles for a result. Cracks me up every time I read about someone on a dyno or drag racing thinking this will show faster results in wear.
Ron
To be clear I was not referencing just the time spent at the strip in my riding, but the extended highway use as well. I appologize for any confusion. I am anxious to see how this design pans out and wondering why the engineers I work with daily at H-D intially chose another direction.
IMO I think it took some convincing for Bert to take on this endeavor but once he did the rush was on for testing and because the testing was done in the winter months only those that had the opportunity to ride the crap out of the comp were allowed to test them. I think that most of you guys would have been the best choice to test this thing. Even so the comp should be in everyone's hands soon and the real testing can begin. I hope the DH comp will be released soon as well. I like where they went with their design as well.
Quote from: Burch753 on April 28, 2015, 06:39:34 AM
Quote from: rbabos on April 28, 2015, 05:01:02 AM
Quote from: N-gin on April 28, 2015, 04:34:25 AM
We need someone to do some low rpm touring with it. Not just beat it up. Does no good to just bottom out the spring. We need it to be worked.
Did anyone work the comp?
Might have missed it reading the thread.
Exactly. High load does very little to harm it. Extended mid pressure loading is the true test and this takes many miles for a result. Cracks me up every time I read about someone on a dyno or drag racing thinking this will show faster results in wear.
Ron
To be clear I was not referencing just the time spent at the strip in my riding, but the extended highway use as well. I appologize for any confusion. I am anxious to see how this design pans out and wondering why the engineers I work with daily at H-D intially chose another direction.
There is a reason and that's been covered many times now. Don't you think if slapping on an early version, reversing the components wouldn't have saved them tons of money if that's all it would have taken? It's function was lacking. The only thing worse was the first 07 version which was likely designed by one of the engineers children and virtually useless for any function a compensator is suppose to do other then light cruise pulse taming. The SE versions had the right idea with more range but lack of lube killed the mechanicals. That condition still exists with the latest version with incomplete lubing along with noisy wafer bearing and questionable preload on some. Get the preload right, more lube to spokes and use the PEEK for thrust, then it should be a good long term quiet comp. Don't expect HD to make it right but the aftermarket has come to the rescue to make up the HD shortcomings.
Ron
Ron
Don't expect HD to make it right but the aftermarket has come to the rescue to make up the HD shortcomings.
Ron
[/quote]
Well put Ron. But disappointing in the MOCO.
I hope i'm not coming across as bashing Baker, because that's really not my intention. I like their products, I use their products in my shop and on my personal bikes and I will definitely continue using them as a distributor. But as a vendor selling their products it's very frustrating having to explain to customers why the part they were told would be ready months ago still isn't ready. Especially after they've been told "it'll ship in a couple weeks" for the past month and a half. It's been one delay after another adn I fell my costomers think I am just making excuses. Bad for business all the way around.
I have zero doubt they when the product is released it will be suppurb.
On our behalf I apologize for the wait. Truthfully 6 months from a bar napkin to a finished product is no small feat. Bert has been riding it for the last month now regardless of weather and he will not release it till he is 100% certain it is up to our standards. I am happy to announce that he is finally satisfied and the last oiling modification that was made is quite impressive. You all can thank Soft02 for that. He was running only 18 ounces of fluid in his primary for his Bandit clutch during testing and this inspired Bert to take the extra measure of insuring that even primaries with low oil can have a durable compensator. We have the firmest ship date we have had to this point. We are on schedule to ship the first 95 by May 8th. I would like to thank you all for your patients and yes now the "real world" testing can begin. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mark P.
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
On our behalf I apologize for the wait. Truthfully 6 months from a bar napkin to a finished product is no small feat. Bert has been riding it for the last month now regardless of weather and he will not release it till he is 100% certain it is up to our standards. I am happy to announce that he is finally satisfied and the last oiling modification that was made is quite impressive. You all can thank Soft02 for that. He was running only 18 ounces of fluid in his primary for his Bandit clutch during testing and this inspired Bert to take the extra measure of insuring that even primaries with low oil can have a durable compensator. We have the firmest ship date we have had to this point. We are on schedule to ship the first 95 by May 8th. I would like to thank you all for your patients and yes now the "real world" testing can begin. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mark P.
Professionally and intelligently stated. Thank you for your support on this project and yes, I know all too well the shortened development can cause headaches. I cant wait to get mine installed.
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
On our behalf I apologize for the wait. Truthfully 6 months from a bar napkin to a finished product is no small feat. Bert has been riding it for the last month now regardless of weather and he will not release it till he is 100% certain it is up to our standards. I am happy to announce that he is finally satisfied and the last oiling modification that was made is quite impressive. You all can thank Soft02 for that. He was running only 18 ounces of fluid in his primary for his Bandit clutch during testing and this inspired Bert to take the extra measure of insuring that even primaries with low oil can have a durable compensator. We have the firmest ship date we have had to this point. We are on schedule to ship the first 95 by May 8th. I would like to thank you all for your patients and yes now the "real world" testing can begin. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mark P.
Thanks for the update Mark
:up:
Thank you
Quote from: N-gin on April 28, 2015, 04:34:25 AM
We need someone to do some low rpm touring with it. Not just beat it up. Does no good to just bottom out the spring. We need it to be worked.
Did anyone work the comp?
Might have missed it reading the thread.
I was only able to get 900 miles on the comp I tested. Not only did I beat the crap out of it but I did ride it at about 1800 rpm in 7th gear for a couple hundred miles I was trying everything I could to get it to fail or start making noise and I could not(I never lug my bike like that). I wanted to get more miles on it but work and life would not permit. I personally think it is a great product and a better product than the screamin eagle design. Granted I have not put the time and research into the SE design as a lot of the guys in this thread. I also have a few of these comps on order and that is when the real testing will begin I have a customer that is retired and rides about 5k a month he is getting the first one I install it will be on a 2015 serg that already has 20k on it that bike alone will tell the tale. So I say good Job Bert and the team at Baker now lets work on a cruse drive main Drive gear bearing.
Quote from: Burch753 on April 28, 2015, 09:03:02 AM
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
On our behalf I apologize for the wait. Truthfully 6 months from a bar napkin to a finished product is no small feat. Bert has been riding it for the last month now regardless of weather and he will not release it till he is 100% certain it is up to our standards. I am happy to announce that he is finally satisfied and the last oiling modification that was made is quite impressive. You all can thank Soft02 for that. He was running only 18 ounces of fluid in his primary for his Bandit clutch during testing and this inspired Bert to take the extra measure of insuring that even primaries with low oil can have a durable compensator. We have the firmest ship date we have had to this point. We are on schedule to ship the first 95 by May 8th. I would like to thank you all for your patients and yes now the "real world" testing can begin. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mark P.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Looking forward to seeing how this pans out in the masses.
I work in an industry that unfortunately has to rely on the install base for real world testing. Designing products and hoping to catch all the use scenarios is very difficult. I'm sure it's easier to find the use cases for this type of product, but there are always corner cases. That said, I have no doubt that Baker will back this up if they see problems in the field. As long as the problems don't translate to crank problems it should all be good. Just my opinion of course...
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
On our behalf I apologize for the wait. Truthfully 6 months from a bar napkin to a finished product is no small feat. Bert has been riding it for the last month now regardless of weather and he will not release it till he is 100% certain it is up to our standards. I am happy to announce that he is finally satisfied and the last oiling modification that was made is quite impressive. You all can thank Soft02 for that. He was running only 18 ounces of fluid in his primary for his Bandit clutch during testing and this inspired Bert to take the extra measure of insuring that even primaries with low oil can have a durable compensator. We have the firmest ship date we have had to this point. We are on schedule to ship the first 95 by May 8th. I would like to thank you all for your patients and yes now the "real world" testing can begin. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mark P.
:up: :up: :up:
My softail is paitiently waiting. Maybe have his crew swap it out in Sturgis this year? Good guy with good products, can't wait.
Sounds promising. Will it work in my stock '07 primary without any plastic pieces or oiling trays? So far my SE comp (2010 install) is working fine but........................
Quote from: Templar2 on April 29, 2015, 05:57:11 AM
Sounds promising. Will it work in my stock '07 primary without any plastic pieces or oiling trays? So far my SE comp (2010 install) is working fine but........................
No trays, no plastic pieces, we designed the sprocket to force oil where it needs to be.
:up:
(http://i.imgur.com/VC6p6LN.jpg)
Looks promising!
Following the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on Bad Units/Changes made AND YOU Bought from HD (PLUS you being the Guinea Pigs)... :turd: :turd: :turd:
Sounds like HERE, you will have a unit that will do what they say it will DO... and Not have the Customers testing needed to Modify it AGAIN to work, to work, to work,,, ect... :slap:
Hoping So...
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on May 05, 2015, 09:10:23 AM
Following the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on Bad Units/Changes made AND YOU Bought from HD (PLUS you being the Guinea Pigs)... :turd: :turd: :turd:
Sounds like HERE, you will have a unit that will do what they say it will DO... and Not have the Customers testing needed to Modify it AGAIN to work, to work, to work,,, ect... :slap:
Hoping So...
signed....BUBBIE
:up: :up: me too!!
Lookin good
those oiling holes look simple design change
Now I can see primary modifications to direct oil splash to the outer section of the comp. Or maybe a Baker inner primary.
Wonder if they stuck one of those small cameras in there to see what's really happening.....
Anyone?
Just got the call!! The one I ordered ships tomorrow
:baby:
What is the Retail Cost for the new units?
signed....BUBBIE
I got the call too I got three on the way tomorrow also
399 retail is what I was told I don't think that has changed
Quote from: Just Nick on May 06, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
399 retail is what I was told I don't think that has changed
[/quote That's what I paid plus shipping.]
Anxiously waiting to read how these work out. I am hearing a rattle I am pretty sure I can attribute to the stock 12 comp but I don't get near the miles most of you guys do so I'm holding my cards for now.
With the phone call I got and the above comments. Sounds like they will be shipping fools tomorrow.
Sweet! Just got the call. Mines on its way. Now time to pick up a primary chain and all the bearings n seals n gaskets.
Quote
....... Sounds like they will be shipping fools tomorrow.
:scratch:
Quote from: FSG on May 07, 2015, 09:28:31 AM
Quote
....... Sounds like they will be shipping fools tomorrow.
:scratch:
Maybe shipping TO fools?
Wait, that wasn't very nice of me. Sorry!
Meaning they are going to be really busy shipping all the comps out
Quote from: N-gin on May 07, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
Meaning they are going to be really busy shipping all the comps out
It must be a US thing as I've never heard that expression before.
Is there a HTT discount?
I need two, 1 for a Dyna and one for a ultra classic.
Quote from: N-gin on May 07, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
Meaning they are going to be really busy shipping all the comps out
That's all I meant. Might even been a regional thing.
Quote from: FSG on May 07, 2015, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: N-gin on May 07, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
Meaning they are going to be really busy shipping all the comps out
It must be a US thing as I've never heard that expression before.
Yep, shipping fools, dancing fools, posting fools etc. just means a lot of activity.
Mark
Quote from: hrdtail78 on May 07, 2015, 10:05:14 AM
Quote from: N-gin on May 07, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
Meaning they are going to be really busy shipping all the comps out
That's all I meant. Might even been a regional thing.
I knew what you meant. It reads differently at first if you don't get the gist.
Quote from: Hossamania on May 07, 2015, 10:34:40 AM
I knew what you meant.
Must be only in the U.S. Dictionary?
"an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm (usually preceded by a present participle):
He's just a dancing fool."
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on May 07, 2015, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 07, 2015, 10:34:40 AM
I knew what you meant.
Must be only in the U.S. Dictionary?
"an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm of shipping Comps out:
He's just a shipping fool."
Bob
Fixed it, should make perfect sense now.
Tracking number is in my inbox they were some shipping fools today
Seems there's going to be quite a few riding fools in the upcoming weeks.
Mike
Well, I hope all the "fools" post up their on road experiences with this new comp! A lot of us other "fools" are waiting!!! :unsure:
Anyone with a tracking number know where they were on the waiting list?
I got mine today.
I received mine today also. .its a great looking piece..hopefully she performs as well as she looks..im not sure wether to roast whats left of my latest screamin eagle comp or throw this bad boy on ...decisions decisions
Between this comp, the Baker Bully cover and the AIM CF2 clutch there is probably about 25 pounds of added weight going on the primary side. Not to mention the Pingel electric over air shifter it's getting. When I shipped the comp. Out to my customer today the shopping weight was 8.1 lbs.
Quote from: harleytuner on May 11, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Between this comp, the Baker Bully cover and the AIM CF2 clutch there is probably about 25 pounds of added weight going on the primary side. Not to mention the Pingel electric over air shifter it's getting. When I shipped the comp. Out to my customer today the shopping weight was 8.1 lbs.
A blower on the other side will help even out the weight..
Quote from: Barrett on May 12, 2015, 10:24:01 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on May 11, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Between this comp, the Baker Bully cover and the AIM CF2 clutch there is probably about 25 pounds of added weight going on the primary side. Not to mention the Pingel electric over air shifter it's getting. When I shipped the comp. Out to my customer today the shopping weight was 8.1 lbs.
A blower on the other side will fix it..
:up:
What's the weight of the SE comp?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on May 12, 2015, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: Barrett on May 12, 2015, 10:24:01 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on May 11, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Between this comp, the Baker Bully cover and the AIM CF2 clutch there is probably about 25 pounds of added weight going on the primary side. Not to mention the Pingel electric over air shifter it's getting. When I shipped the comp. Out to my customer today the shopping weight was 8.1 lbs.
A blower on the other side will fix it..
:up:
What's the weight of the SE comp?
Looking on kutters site the shipping weight of the SE comp is
11.1 lbshttp://www.kutterharleyonline.com/harley-davidson/screamin-eagle-big-twin-compensator-42200064A (http://www.kutterharleyonline.com/harley-davidson/screamin-eagle-big-twin-compensator-42200064A)
Lighter, stronger and simpler. :up:
I got all three of mine today and about had a fight over who gets this batch so I ordered some more today they will ship in a few weeks. customers were pissed when I told them one was mine.
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
Mark P.
Hey Mark, i was just reading through the directions and see i have to chisel that damn plastic tray out which shouldn't be a big deal..Just wondering about measuring the chain alignment and possibly having to use a spacer to get correct alignment.. Were you seeing a common spacer size needed from one platform to another..meaning dyna to touring models?...i am still obviously going to measure to be safe but i wont be installing the comp until after i get back from Americade in June and just wanted to have everything set up once i get back..
thanks
Marc
I had to shim mine .045 but that was not a production comp.
Quote from: MarcV125 on May 12, 2015, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
Mark P.
Hey Mark, i was just reading through the directions and see i have to chisel that damn plastic tray out which shouldn't be a big deal..Just wondering about measuring the chain alignment and possibly having to use a spacer to get correct alignment.. Were you seeing a common spacer size needed from one platform to another..meaning dyna to touring models?...i am still obviously going to measure to be safe but i wont be installing the comp until after i get back from Americade in June and just wanted to have everything set up once i get back..
thanks
Marc
Not seeing any common trends yet, I think Harley sells a spacer kit the comes with 4-5 different shims, or at least they used to.
Maybe I missed it in the original instructions but I didn't see where it said anything about removing the plastic deflector. So what do you do on the '14-up with the deflector cast into the primary cover?
Quote from: HighLiner on May 13, 2015, 09:06:40 AM
Maybe I missed it in the original instructions but I didn't see where it said anything about removing the plastic deflector. So what do you do on the '14-up with the deflector cast into the primary cover?
Die grinder to clearance it, it's in the updated instructions.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit# (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/compensator-sprocket-kit#)
Got mine today.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_161947_752.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_161947_752.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162002_488.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162002_488.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162010_281.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162010_281.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162025_351.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162025_351.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162054_815.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/Work%20stuff/IMG_20150513_162054_815.jpg.html)
Show off. Haha
Quote from: misfitJason on May 13, 2015, 09:46:47 PM
Show off. Haha
Like a kid at xmas. Now I need to find a primary chain.
Would be great if people could post road test results as they get some miles on!
Does anyone know if they have a limited amount their sending out every month? Still not heard anything on my pre order and I need to install a new one like a month ago.
They told me 4 weeks today.
Quote from: hdrolling on May 18, 2015, 10:58:45 AM
Does anyone know if they have a limited amount their sending out every month? Still not heard anything on my pre order and I need to install a new one like a month ago.
Another 70 will be going out by the end of the Month all of which are going to pre-order customers.
Whats your thoughts on the new baker comp.? surely some have installed it and have been riding with it. how is it compared to the 14 HD version?
Quote from: Mark P on May 13, 2015, 06:34:30 AM
Quote from: MarcV125 on May 12, 2015, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: Mark P on April 28, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
Mark P.
Hey Mark, i was just reading through the directions and see i have to chisel that damn plastic tray out which shouldn't be a big deal..Just wondering about measuring the chain alignment and possibly having to use a spacer to get correct alignment.. Were you seeing a common spacer size needed from one platform to another..meaning dyna to touring models?...i am still obviously going to measure to be safe but i wont be installing the comp until after i get back from Americade in June and just wanted to have everything set up once i get back..
thanks
Marc
Not seeing any common trends yet, I think Harley sells a spacer kit the comes with 4-5 different shims, or at least they used to.
Anybody have the part # for the HD shim kit?
Personally, I'm more interested in reports after 10k + miles.
I received the phone call yesterday, shipping out Wed!
Mine's being shipped now also. Wondering about that shim kit too and if anybody is having to shim their new comp?
QuoteAnybody have the part # for the HD shim kit?
What are the ID and OD of the Flange on the inboard end of the Baker Motor Extension Shaft P/N 622-67A ?
So Mark P, what is the significance of the HL on the inside of the spring pack cup?
(http://i.imgur.com/1oVSiIC.png)
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 23, 2015, 06:21:37 AM
Personally, I'm more interested in reports after 10k + miles.
Any update on these would be great.
Someone probably already tried drilling holes in their HD comp to let more oil in, right?
Quote from: FSG on May 25, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
So Mark P, what is the significance of the HL on the inside of the spring pack cup?
(http://i.imgur.com/1oVSiIC.png)
Was this machined with a hammer and chisel??
The machining is fine. What your seeing is grease.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 27, 2015, 05:40:36 AM
The machining is fine. What your seeing is grease.
I'll buy that.........
Quote from: FSG on May 25, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
So Mark P, what is the significance of the HL on the inside of the spring pack cup?
(http://i.imgur.com/1oVSiIC.png)
No idea but I'll ask.
Maybe it was made in Holland. Other possibilities:
http://www.abbreviations.com/HL (http://www.abbreviations.com/HL)
Maybe the HL stands for HL Precision Manufacturing, Inc.
Maybe HL is really 7H..
Ordered 2 comps and 2 attitude adjusters from James at Baker. :up:
Now I have to wait a month..
Oh well gives me time to plan on converting to 3 phase when I get the flywheel.. Oh yeah and do the FSG mod :up:
Mine arrived today, too hot during the day here in NC to be out in the garage but i should have mine in by tonight.
I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone found out how much this comp. weighs?
Quote from: rob71458 on May 28, 2015, 09:56:16 AM
I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone found out how much this comp. weighs?
Baker 8.1 lbs
Harley SE comp 11 lbs
Quote from: hdrolling on May 28, 2015, 10:14:14 AM
Quote from: rob71458 on May 28, 2015, 09:56:16 AM
I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone found out how much this comp. weighs?
Baker 8.1 lbs
Harley SE comp 11 lbs
I believe those are shipping weights, mine weighs 6 lbs on my totally unofficial bathroom scale... :embarrassed:
Anybody know the difference between the 621-67A and the 621-67B Sprockets?? Just noticed that the Install Instructions now show a "B" on the Sprocket...
I'm going to say the B has the oil troughs machined into the side of the comp sprocket, while the A does not.
FYI there is a Version 4 Instructions on the Baker www site = > 2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V4.052215 (http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V4.052215.pdf)
(http://i.imgur.com/wV3EiDB.png)
Yeah, comparing the Instruction sheets (For A and B comps), I see it is the new oil trowels and that they did away with all those holes drilled around the inboard side of the comp - although I still see them in your pic but they are gone now.
Is this OK/normal, the way the spring cup is crimped to hold it together?
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q664/alansummrs/8f28f0e102660cf28f0ac9d09f2f5410_zpsc9jm3rey.jpg)
Yes the way it is crimped together is fine it is to help the springs inside there to not be able to come loose
FBobPilot,
That picture looks just like the Stock spring and can that came in my 09 FLHR to start with. I got 55,000 miles out of the original and then went with the
SE 08A...
Modifying it with ground channels Down the 3 spoke fronts and onto the boss faces... Using MTL and it still is working great with 50,000 miles on it. :potstir:
signed....BUBBIE
QuoteIs this OK/normal, the way the spring cup is crimped to hold it together?
Yes, they all do that :teeth: , even the old Shovel Comps.
(http://i.imgur.com/Jz1xirE.png)
Only reason they are crimped is to hold it together for shipping. :hyst:They serve no other purpose other then to unitize the assembly.
Ron
In other words, the crimp only keep the spring pack from coming apart when the compensator is disassembled. Once you assemble the compensator the crimp does not touch anything.
Quote from: tstroud on May 30, 2015, 06:46:40 AM
In other words, the crimp only keep the spring pack from coming apart when the compensator is disassembled. Once you assemble the compensator the crimp does not touch anything.
That is correct.
Ron
We have used 2 of them ,nothing but great results. Let us see how long it takes H.D. to clone it.
Curious as to how close the Hex Bolt comes to bottoming out in the crank when this comp is installed.
It'll be a while before I see one, perhaps someone can measure and post.
(http://i.imgur.com/SDA5tMe.png)
anyone measured one yet ?
(http://i.imgur.com/4Gc79BC.png)
Mines still in the box FSG. I'll measure it tomorrow.
Quote from: sscycle on May 31, 2015, 08:59:35 AM
We have used 2 of them ,nothing but great results. Let us see how long it takes H.D. to clone it.
This is just a clone of the early HD design one so ................. It would not take much for HD to do it that's for sure. Why HD decided to leave this design who knows.
:hyst: :hyst:
Steve,
Look at ALL the $$$$$$ they made in selling us the SE comps and the SE A comps and the ETC etc, etc... PLUS labor off the ones who don't do their own work or take it to a private shop.... :emoGroan:
I too liked the early design of the Original compensator in my 09 King... Still have the old one in a bag to maybe? someday? :pop:
signed....BUBBIE
Measure my comp bolt, a little hard deciding where to start/stop the measurement because the bolt is rounded from the bottom of the collar to the shank but here is what I get:
Bolt: 3.800"
Bolt head: .325"
Bolt collar: .710"
Smooth bolt shank: 1.315"
Threads: 1.450"
The collar has a chamfered bottom, I included the chamfer with the width measured on the collar. The rounded portion from the chamfer to the smooth shank is included in the smooth bolt shank measurement. The threads measurement starts from the first change in the smooth portion of the shank.
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q664/alansummrs/7933d13aed74d578d0f70947654aa9a9_zpsnh0xsmpw.jpg)
Quote from: Steve Cole on June 02, 2015, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: sscycle on May 31, 2015, 08:59:35 AM
We have used 2 of them ,nothing but great results. Let us see how long it takes H.D. to clone it.
This is just a clone of the early HD design one so ................. It would not take much for HD to do it that's for sure. Why HD decided to leave this design who knows.
Ah, Steve, you know. :wink: Why bring 8 years of problems on yourself when all they had to do was keep using the pre 07 versions?
Ron
Has anyone checked to see if the ramp speed and travel on the Baker comp is the same as the SE changed to from the early HD version?
Quote from: FBobPilot on June 03, 2015, 07:04:32 AM
Measure my comp bolt, a little hard deciding where to start/stop the measurement because the bolt is rounded from the bottom of the collar to the shank but here is what I get:
Bolt: 3.800"
Bolt head: .325"
Bolt collar: .710"
Smooth bolt shank: 1.315"
Threads: 1.450"
The collar has a chamfered bottom, I included the chamfer with the width measured on the collar. The rounded portion from the chamfer to the smooth shank is included in the smooth bolt shank measurement. The threads measurement starts from the first change in the smooth portion of the shank.
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q664/alansummrs/7933d13aed74d578d0f70947654aa9a9_zpsnh0xsmpw.jpg)
VERY NICE MACHINING.........I like seeing that....!!!!!!!!!!!!!
signed....BUBBIE
Sooooooo, how are theses working out? Are they quiet? Do they line up okay? Do you gain 10 HP and 5# TQ HAH. Are they going to last more than 1000 miles? :teeth:
I hope so. I am putting in an order soon Sucks you have to wait a month
Just put mine in with their adjuster, only rode it about 25 miles so far, but it is quite, and shifting is a lot smoother.
I also have one on order. The instructions mention you may have to use spacers to get the chain the line up.
Does anyone have the parts numbers to the spacers that they mention. Don't know if I will need them but what like to have them on hand if I do.
Thank you.
Quote from: LC110 on June 14, 2015, 06:43:51 AM
I also have one on order. The instructions mention you may have to use spacers to get the chain the line up.
Does anyone have the parts numbers to the spacers that they mention. Don't know if I will need them but what like to have them on hand if I do.
Thank you.
Called the local Harley dealer and there is no shim kit, looked through the service manual for an 07 touring models and it said nothing about checking chain alignment. I guess Harley no longer considers this and important step in the process.
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
I've got about 400 miles on the one I've got. It's on a T-MAN 124" smooth as silk so far.
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 16, 2015, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
Yep, that's the ticket.
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
You're just pissed because I jumped all over your choice. If I selected that grade , you'd be all over me too. I just knew I could bate you with my comment so I couldn't help myself. Availability is secondary to the correct part for the application. Why is the damn thing needed anyway? I've not seen any amount of misalignments in the current comps and I'm sure even with MoCo QC, they can stay within 1/16" or less on a bad day. :hyst:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
You're just pissed because I jumped all over your choice. If I selected that grade , you'd be all over me too. I just knew I could bate you with my comment so I couldn't help myself. Availability is secondary to the correct part for the application. Why is the damn thing needed anyway? I've not seen any amount of misalignments in the current comps and I'm sure even with MoCo QC, they can stay within 1/16" or less on a bad day. :hyst:
Ron
Not pissed.. I was just curious if you used any references behind your decision.. Apparently you didn't. I guess you like to spread misinformation?? You sound like you were expecting a reply from me??
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
You're just pissed because I jumped all over your choice. If I selected that grade , you'd be all over me too. I just knew I could bate you with my comment so I couldn't help myself. Availability is secondary to the correct part for the application. Why is the damn thing needed anyway? I've not seen any amount of misalignments in the current comps and I'm sure even with MoCo QC, they can stay within 1/16" or less on a bad day. :hyst:
Ron
Not pissed.. I was just curious if you used any references behind your decision.. Apparently you didn't. I guess you like to spread misinformation?? You sound like you were expecting a reply from me??
:wtf: I can't believe you would stoop that low. :slap: Use oak for all I care.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 01:47:39 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
You're just pissed because I jumped all over your choice. If I selected that grade , you'd be all over me too. I just knew I could bate you with my comment so I couldn't help myself. Availability is secondary to the correct part for the application. Why is the damn thing needed anyway? I've not seen any amount of misalignments in the current comps and I'm sure even with MoCo QC, they can stay within 1/16" or less on a bad day. :hyst:
Ron
Not pissed.. I was just curious if you used any references behind your decision.. Apparently you didn't. I guess you like to spread misinformation?? You sound like you were expecting a reply from me??
:wtf: I can't believe you would stoop that low. :slap: Use oak for all I care.
Ron
Nope it's too soft..
:wtf: I can't believe you would stoop that low. :slap: Use oak for all I care.
Ron
[/quote]
Nope it's too soft..
[/quote]
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 02:13:53 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 01:47:39 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:47:46 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 17, 2015, 08:34:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 17, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
316 ss isn't the best choice. Just saying.
Ron
Why?
Shims or spacers are seldom soft like 316. Will it work, probably depending on application but not the standard material for the job.
So if you don't understand the application then how do you know it's not the best choice.. It's easily available.. Doesn't that factor in on choice?
You're just pissed because I jumped all over your choice. If I selected that grade , you'd be all over me too. I just knew I could bate you with my comment so I couldn't help myself. Availability is secondary to the correct part for the application. Why is the damn thing needed anyway? I've not seen any amount of misalignments in the current comps and I'm sure even with MoCo QC, they can stay within 1/16" or less on a bad day. :hyst:
Ron
Not pissed.. I was just curious if you used any references behind your decision.. Apparently you didn't. I guess you like to spread misinformation?? You sound like you were expecting a reply from me??
:wtf: I can't believe you would stoop that low. :slap: Use oak for all I care.
Ron
Nope it's too soft..
Heat treat it over an open flame.
I'd have to agree with rbabos here on the 316 as being a poor choice. It is soft enough that over time the washer would likely spread and get slightly thinner esp with 175 ftlbs of torque against it. Not to mention its tendencies to gall against steel surfaces. I'd look for a hardened, surface ground steel washer, at least the equivalent to grade8 or even 10.
If you insist on using wood, I'd select iron wood (hard rock maple) or teak LOL Buffalo
Harley is not even concerned with chain alignment, seen a brand new 2015 with .050 out of alignment, a 2013 .065 out of alignment, Harley won't even pay for A spacer none the less the RIGHT spacer. We will check the hardness on the pre-2006 shim kit and go from there.
Quote from: Buffalo on June 17, 2015, 09:36:50 PM
I'd have to agree with rbabos here on the 316 as being a poor choice. It is soft enough that over time the washer would likely spread and get slightly thinner esp with 175 ftlbs of torque against it. Not to mention its tendencies to gall against steel surfaces. I'd look for a hardened, surface ground steel washer, at least the equivalent to grade8 or even 10.
If you insist on using wood, I'd select iron wood (hard rock maple) or teak LOL Buffalo
You need to spend sometime learning engineering.. Look at the PSI load on the surface area the shim compared to clamping pressure of the 9/16 grade 8 bolt.. When you do you'll see that pressure pressure per square inch is less than 1/2 the pressure to even start deform the washer.. Second if you are having issues with galling, you have more serious problems with inadequate clamping pressure.. This washer not a thrust washer.. It is there to support and separate 2 statically mounted devices on the shaft, the rotor and the comp. The washer does not need to be hardened. Wood is still way too soft.
I'm retired!! I've learned all I ever want to learn from "engineers", thank you very much!! I'll use my 40+ years experience in the metal trades for my selections. I met a few very brilliant engineers over the years, but many more that couldn't design a paper airplane, but knew all the smart words.
Wasn't the now and still world famous catastrophe HD compensator designed by an "engineer"??? Nuff said!! Buffalo
Quote from: Buffalo on June 18, 2015, 07:32:52 AM
I'm retired!! I've learned all I ever want to learn from "engineers", thank you very much!! I'll use my 40+ years experience in the metal trades for my selections. I met a few very brilliant engineers over the years, but many more that couldn't design a paper airplane, but knew all the smart words.
Wasn't the now and still world famous catastrophe HD compensator designed by an "engineer"??? Nuff said!! Buffalo
So you are saying the Baker comp was designed by an idiot?
OLD Saying:
IF The SHOE FITS ? Wear It.....
Old School Knowledge OUT wits Engineering Every Time.... :kick: :hyst:
So ONE answer here should be:
I AM a Smart A$$ and Know ALL.....
signed....BUBBIE :SM:
Another old saying:
You Can Tell an Engineer BUT You Can't TELL them Much...
In other words, better to be dumb and happy than smart and worried..
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 18, 2015, 09:55:04 AM
In other words, better to be dumb and happy than smart and worried..
Quote from Slartibartfast: "I'd far rather be happy than right any day. "
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 18, 2015, 09:55:04 AM
In other words, better to be dumb and happy than smart and worried..
Smart and happy is the best combination.
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 16, 2015, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
These are the ones i had ordered and are waiting in case needed when i will install the baker comp..if i need to use any of those shims ..i gladly will and will not be worried..
Marc
Quote from: MarcV125 on June 18, 2015, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 16, 2015, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
These are the ones i had ordered and are waiting in case needed when i will install the baker comp..if i need to use any of those shims ..i gladly will and will not be worried..
Marc
One thing to note that I might not have clarified.. You need to find the proper thickness for your application.. I picked out the 0.090 mainly because it shows how thick you can get with these..
You can also get shims from Drag as evo sprocket spacers.. Not sure why but Drag says they are only good for evos.. I expect that it's because the early TCs has issues with ripping out the alternator rotor hub at the washer.. The newer rotors are supported with a thicker insert for the splines. The Drag spacers aren't any harder than the 316 SS.. (I have a few)
[attach=0]
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 18, 2015, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: MarcV125 on June 18, 2015, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 16, 2015, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
These are the ones i had ordered and are waiting in case needed when i will install the baker comp..if i need to use any of those shims ..i gladly will and will not be worried..
Marc
One thing to note that I might not have clarified.. You need to find the proper thickness for your application.. I picked out the 0.090 mainly because it shows how thick you can get with these..
You can also get shims from Drag as evo sprocket spacers.. Not sure why but Drag says they are only good for evos.. I expect that it's because the early TCs has issues with ripping out the alternator rotor hub at the washer.. The newer rotors are supported with a thicker insert for the splines. The Drag spacers aren't any harder than the 316 SS.. (I have a few)
[attach=0]
well right max...i choose the 10 pack of 0.010 not the 0.090 just so i can add as needed...i have to say, after replacing 3 comps so far, i haven't measured chain alignment. but i certainly will before i take this one off and put the baker on.. i plan on replacing the comp next weekend. it will be interesting to see how the alignment is with the latest se comp..
marc
Quote from: MarcV125 on June 18, 2015, 03:50:59 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 18, 2015, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: MarcV125 on June 18, 2015, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 16, 2015, 01:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mark P on June 16, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 16, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
Measure what you need and have one made...
Easy when I had my Lathe and equipment... Might cost a few $$ extra from a Little shop making the spacer needed but I Would Not run it but within a 32 of Trueness or Closer...
signed....BUBBIE
We'll see what Mcmaster Carr has and go from there.
:up:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a825/=xnijhi)
These are the ones i had ordered and are waiting in case needed when i will install the baker comp..if i need to use any of those shims ..i gladly will and will not be worried..
Marc
One thing to note that I might not have clarified.. You need to find the proper thickness for your application.. I picked out the 0.090 mainly because it shows how thick you can get with these..
You can also get shims from Drag as evo sprocket spacers.. Not sure why but Drag says they are only good for evos.. I expect that it's because the early TCs has issues with ripping out the alternator rotor hub at the washer.. The newer rotors are supported with a thicker insert for the splines. The Drag spacers aren't any harder than the 316 SS.. (I have a few)
[attach=0]
well right max...i choose the 10 pack of 0.010 not the 0.090 just so i can add as needed...i have to say, after replacing 3 comps so far, i haven't measured chain alignment. but i certainly will before i take this one off and put the baker on.. i plan on replacing the comp next weekend. it will be interesting to see how the alignment is with the latest se comp..
marc
:up: :up:
Quote from: calif phil on May 18, 2015, 12:15:12 PM
They told me 4 weeks today.
I was told the same thing today.
Quote from: Mark P on May 18, 2015, 12:23:57 PM
Another 70 will be going out by the end of the Month all of which are going to pre-order customers.
so Mark if I order one today or tomorrow will I be in that group of 250 you have coming in - in 4 weeks?
I just put the baker comp on my bike Monday, It came in just shy of .040 of offset front to back on the chain.
Just ordered one and now the hard part is the wait
Quote from: UltraNutZ on June 18, 2015, 05:05:21 PM
Quote from: calif phil on May 18, 2015, 12:15:12 PM
They told me 4 weeks today.
I was told the same thing today.
Quote from: Mark P on May 18, 2015, 12:23:57 PM
Another 70 will be going out by the end of the Month all of which are going to pre-order customers.
so Mark if I order one today or tomorrow will I be in that group of 250 you have coming in - in 4 weeks?
Correct. We have a ship date of 7/22 for that batch of 250.
A new version of Instructions are available for the Baker Compensator,
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V5.060815.pdf
a new Page 5 details the Chain Alignment procedure.
Has anyone that's tested the Baker unit, run a Bandit clutch, or other that recommends less than OEM fluid levels? Bandit suggests 14oz. for their Sportsman unit. And I know from experience, that my Barnett Scorpion likes about 24oz. in the '08 touring primary. Less would be better for the Scorpion, but I have to insure a sufficient oil bath to the compensaver I'm running.
Just curious as to the level required to utilize the oil pick up trowel ports.
Me thinks that with a stock clutch and the level being to the bottom of the clutch basket the trowel ports will be in the oil with the engine stopped and the bike level or point downhill.
With the engine running the oil will be everywhere and I think splash is going to be the major contributor to oil feeding the trowels.
(http://i.imgur.com/BSWTh4J.png)
You could be right Gary, the splash may play a part in the lubrication to the trowel ports, I hadn't thought of that. I was just concerned that with some aftermarket clutches that utilize more clutch surface, less oil is desirable to function properly.
Quote from: FSG on June 19, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
A new version of Instructions are available for the Baker Compensator,
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V5.060815.pdf
a new Page 5 details the Chain Alignment procedure.
Thanks will recheck it in a few days.
Ohio,
Soft02 tested with the bandit at 18oz if I remember correctly. Baker took this into consideration and made necessary improvements to the compensator to accomodate for the lower levels of fluid. I currently am running the bandit and baker setup with 16 oz of Belray gear saver. Maybe he'll chime in.
Scott
Thanks Scott. I was just wondering as I looked at the Baker installation sheet, it spoke of using 46oz. for Touring, and 40oz. for Softail and Dyna models. The Bandit and Scorpion I know will not tolerate that much lube very well.
Glad I could help. I re-confirmed it with post #548 from Mark
Thanks, I missed that post. :up:
Yes I tested it with the Bandit and almost no oil was getting to the lobes. Can't really add much more. The oil scoops were added for this reason. I haven't installed the new comp yet but was assured that the lobes are getting oil with the new scoop design even at 14oz of oil in the primary.
Quote from: Soft 02 on June 20, 2015, 07:05:40 AM
Yes I tested it with the Bandit and almost no oil was getting to the lobes. Can't really add much more. The oil scoops were added for this reason. I haven't installed the new comp yet but was assured that the lobes are getting oil with the new scoop design even at 14oz of oil in the primary.
Thanks for the update on that. :up:
If you can, when you get some miles on the new one, can you let us know how well it does with the lower than OEM oil levels?
Yes I will. Havnt been riding much. Finally have everything to freshen up my primary. Even a new Diamond primary chain.
I have a baker unit coming next week and will be installing with my Bandit clutch. I intend to run 20 oz. of Spectro
Sounds like some good real life tests for the performance oriented crowd here. :up:
Quote from: Ohio HD on June 20, 2015, 07:16:48 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on June 20, 2015, 07:05:40 AM
Yes I tested it with the Bandit and almost no oil was getting to the lobes. Can't really add much more. The oil scoops were added for this reason. I haven't installed the new comp yet but was assured that the lobes are getting oil with the new scoop design even at 14oz of oil in the primary.
Thanks for the update on that. :up:
If you can, when you get some miles on the new one, can you let us know how well it does with the lower than OEM oil levels?
I've put about 1500 miles on mine running 16oz of belray with my bandit and so far it feels fine, after going through three SE comps I'm hoping this baker will be the last!
I have to wonder about the oil quantities some run in their primaries. Is 16ozs even touching the primary chain. In my mind, there has to be enough for the chain to fling forward or the compensator get no oil at all.
The other question would have to do with cooling the stator/rotor, I can't see 16 ozs doing a very good job of keeping temps under control. In an Flh, I'd be tempted to run at least 32ozs as a minimum.
And I certainly wouldn't run any ATF in there, it simply will not lubricate anything well imho. fwiw Buffalo
Not sure if it has been asked and don't have time to read 30 pages of posts but does Baker plan on coming up with an alternative sprocket size?
Quote from: BVHOG on June 23, 2015, 12:26:56 PM
Not sure if it has been asked and don't have time to read 30 pages of posts but does Baker plan on coming up with an alternative sprocket size?
When I asked Mark he said once the demand slows down a bit and they are caught up they will probably look into different ratios.
Quote from: Soft 02 on June 23, 2015, 01:13:57 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on June 23, 2015, 12:26:56 PM
Not sure if it has been asked and don't have time to read 30 pages of posts but does Baker plan on coming up with an alternative sprocket size?
When I asked Mark he said once the demand slows down a bit and they are caught up they will probably look into different ratios.
:up: :up:
all this talk about spacers and i didn't end up needing any .. only .018 out ... and have to say mark the comp felt great ... felt smoother and no sound at all from down there..i got about 5k out of my latest se comp and she started clunking on shut down and giving me a harder start , ramps showed the same wear as the previous se comps of previous generations..
cant wait to see what i get out of yours .. I have high hopes.. !!
marc
Are you running the new comp. with the stock tensioner or the baker manual unit?
Quote from: remington007 on June 25, 2015, 12:41:48 PM
Are you running the new comp. with the stock tensioner or the baker manual unit?
Have been running the baker manual unit since about 10k when i threw out my ipb ..i have 50 k on the bike now and have had to only adjust the chain adjuster once since i installed it...
Marc
For those fitting the Baker Comp and Mark P.
Shims can be added to move the comp sprocket outboard for alignment with the clutch if required, BUT what is being done if there is a requirement to move the comp sprocket inboard?
Quote from: FSG on July 11, 2015, 02:48:52 PM
For those fitting the Baker Comp and Mark P.
Shims can be added to move the comp sprocket outboard for alignment with the clutch if required, BUT what is being done if there is a requirement to move the comp sprocket inboard?
I have installed 9 of these thus far including the one I tested before they were in production and on all eight bikes (mine had two comps on it the test one and the production one on it now) the chain alignment has been within spec. I have thought about the issue of having to move the comp inboard also and the only option would be to machine either the outboard side of the rotor or the inboard side of the comp sprocker adapter I see no other way
So how thick is the end of the shaft extension to begin with?
(http://i.imgur.com/W1CrrgQ.png)
[attach=0]
:up: :SM:
I had to turn .060 off my Baker to get my alignment within spec.
Did you take the 0.060" off the shaft extension, or the rear surface of the sprocket?
back side of the shaft extension
Quote from: FSG on July 11, 2015, 02:48:52 PM
For those fitting the Baker Comp and Mark P.
Shims can be added to move the comp sprocket outboard for alignment with the clutch if required, BUT what is being done if there is a requirement to move the comp sprocket inboard?
We have been machining the extension shaft so far the worst we've seen was .065 outboard and we took .045 off that one. Another dealer of ours has had 3 bikes all at .040 out board of the clutch. 2007,2012 and a 2015 so it doesn't seem to be year or model specific. If you run into this just tell us how far out it is, send the extension back and we'll machine it down.
That's a nice gesture. Any news on the next batch getting ready. I am anxious to hopefully get mine shipped to the sunshine state
Does HD even have a spec for 07+ chain alignment?
Quote from: misfitJason on July 13, 2015, 06:40:19 PM
That's a nice gesture. Any news on the next batch getting ready. I am anxious to hopefully get mine shipped to the sunshine state
Last word we got from the machine shop doing some of the parts was by the end of the month, supposed to get 250 which will help catch us up.
Quote from: Soft 02 on July 13, 2015, 07:06:00 PM
Does HD even have a spec for 07+ chain alignment?
Didn't see it in the service manual under R&Ring primary.
Any updates on the next batch Mark? Oh yeah. And have fun in sturgis
any feedback from you guys running the newest version of the Baker comp?
I'm sure someone has logged some miles on to their final product by now.
I just did the added shims to my SE comp to bring it into the spec of .286"- .326" (which mine is at .302" now)...and it seems to be worse now after the change of bringing it into spec. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2015, 05:28:57 AM
any feedback from you guys running the newest version of the Baker comp?
I'm sure someone has logged some miles on to their final product by now.
I just did the added shims to my SE comp to bring it into the spec of .286"- .326" (which mine is at .302" now)...and it seems to be worse now after the change of bringing it into spec. :nix:
Ray
I got one from the first batch for Burch, he's been running it in his 124" road king on the street and the strip. I haven't heard anything n we negative from him about it.
Stopped by the Baker booth in Rapid City. Comp looks real nice but they said not for motors over 130 horses, then they recommend solid sprocket...
At 144 hp I'm not sure.
Quote from: VDeuce on August 09, 2015, 06:40:00 AM
Stopped by the Baker booth in Rapid City. Comp looks real nice but they said not for motors over 130 horses, then they recommend solid sprocket...
At 144 hp I'm not sure.
I'm thinking that recommendation is just to cover their backside, JMO
The SE comp is being used in many high output applications, as with most drive train components on our bikes none of them were designed to handle the power some of the guys put through them.
I would like to see how these Baker comps are holding up as mileage increases, maybe 25-35k.
Daren
I just might be the one to see if it holds over 160 hp. :potstir:
I'd love to get some feedback with someone with at least 5- 10K on one of them...before I buy one.
My SE comp #4 sure didn't like itself coming it the newest MoCo's spec's.
Ray
Quote from: VDeuce on August 09, 2015, 06:40:00 AM
Stopped by the Baker booth in Rapid City. Comp looks real nice but they said not for motors over 130 horses, then they recommend solid sprocket...
At 144 hp I'm not sure.
Maybe Baker is on to something- :wink:
Solid for 30,000 plus miles-still going strong...
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/706/sprocketassembly.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/402/sprocketc.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/194/sprocketassembly2.jpg)
I finally tried my solid 34 tooth sprocket last week Paul.
It lasted for a 1/2 mile ride and had to come out.
The primary was noisy as hell and it galloped something fierce. If gallop is a good word to describe it. Lunging might be a better word.
I'm wondering if a 32 tooth solid sprocket would be a better option for my bike...but I don't know of any being made for a T/C. :nix:
Ray
I'd like to see a comp with more than 10k on it handling a 130 HP motor too.
My BDL only has 3k on it now but it looks brand new.
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2015, 11:36:34 AM
I finally tried my solid 34 tooth sprocket last week Paul.
It lasted for a 1/2 mile ride and had to come out.
The primary was noisy as hell and it galloped something fierce. If gallop is a good word to describe it. Lunging might be a better word.
I'm wondering if a 32 tooth solid sprocket would be a better option for my bike...but I don't know of any being made for a T/C. :nix:
Ray
That sucks-
Well, maybe it is cause it's a 34 (as mine is only a 23), or your engine characteristics being a longer stroke-not sure why it's lunging so bad.
Mine does lug or lunge a bit when at real low rpm or if I'm in the wrong gear once in a while, but a quick down shift or bring up the revs and everything smooths out nice.
Mine is welded together, and you can make one if you wanted to try again with a smaller sprocket, and then change your rear to balance out your ratio. Just one more street or strip choice/compromise at this level of power. Track only, solid is obvious choice. Street with strip duty occasionally, walking that fine line.
"Street with strip duty occasionally, walking that fine line."
That's about what I'll be.. I should be near 130 also.. Who's making the solid ones?
With all the comp woes with the 07-up models. Has anyone ever tried using a older style flywheel in the newer case? Can it be done? One would think, if you're going to buy a flywheel why not just get the older style and install the older version comp.
Quote from: VDeuce on August 09, 2015, 06:40:00 AM
Stopped by the Baker booth in Rapid City. Comp looks real nice but they said not for motors over 130 horses, then they recommend solid sprocket...
At 144 hp I'm not sure.
That's news to me considering I tested one of there comps before they were available in my 124 with 142 hp. And I still run one of the first ones out when they released them to the public I only have about 3k on it but it is still as quiet as the day I put it in.
Told me the spring pack collapsed in testing...
I've yet to see a spring pack not flatten under high load and the unit go solid. That's how they work, even the SE with those huge mothers in there. If the springs lose memory, that's another story.
Ron
Quote from: Nowhereman on August 09, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
I'd like to see a comp with more than 10k on it handling a 130 HP motor too.
My BDL only has 3k on it now but it looks brand new.
'Have the <'14 style SE comp (the last one before the "latest") in the '09 SERG 117/DD7 (no Dyno, but it's probably good for around 130 on both #s) for 19+k now. Inspected primary around 13k to see how the OE tensioner was doing,(was considering a manual adjuster if the stock auto tensioner was over tightening) all OK, still quiet, no shutdown clunk, at this time, we'll see how far it goes before the Primary starts making noise...
I don't beat on it, I wait until full operating temp before any significant engine braking, high speed "Sport Touring" with "The Ball & Chain"...
Formula+ in Primary.
I too stopped by Baker Drive Line tent at Black Hills HD. The compensator looked great. I asked about alignment was told no need to worry. I asked about price was quoted 399.00 plus tax. I mentioned the Fourm and asked about a discount. Was told not at the event. I was quoted $600 installed out the door. I felt this was a little high. I was dissapointed in no discount options what so ever. Even CASH sale was no discount. Had there been some type of discount offered I would have bought it on the spot.
So, you are mad because they wanted to charge you full price? Would it make a difference if MSRP was $450 and they knocked $50 off? Sounds like a deal.
I have to wait another month or more to get one..
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 01:54:09 PM
So, you are mad because they wanted to charge you full price? Would it make a difference if MSRP was $450 and they knocked $50 off? Sounds like a deal.
Just cuz I such a great guy, Mark said he'd sell me one for $499 + tax and shipping..
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 12, 2015, 07:30:13 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 01:54:09 PM
So, you are mad because they wanted to charge you full price? Would it make a difference if MSRP was $450 and they knocked $50 off? Sounds like a deal.
Just cuz I such a great guy, Mark said he'd sell me one for $499 + tax and shipping..
I guess it doesn't pay to be a great guy - I've suspected that for a while now.
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 12, 2015, 07:30:13 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 01:54:09 PM
So, you are mad because they wanted to charge you full price? Would it make a difference if MSRP was $450 and they knocked $50 off? Sounds like a deal.
Just cuz I such a great guy, Mark said he'd sell me one for $499 + tax and shipping..
Good deal. For us Canadians, if lucky to get shipping for $50, it works out to a 700+ buck compensator at todays exchange rate. Taxes on top of that. :wtf:
Ron
A buddy just got a quote for a JIMS 6speed tranny door (07 up), at a local independent. He was told $800 + 13% tax. I believe retail US is $399 or so.
I told him to drive his Honda Civic to Michigan (400 mile round trip), pick one up, and still save $200!! What a Rip Off!! Back in the early 2000's, exchange rate was 1.57 at one point. I bought parts in Wisconsin for less than half the Cdn prices. Dealers wanted $1195.00 for a V&H Pro pipe here, I had one installed for $495 in Sturgis!! Looks like we're back there getting soaked again!! Buffalo
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on August 10, 2015, 01:21:06 PM
Quote from: Nowhereman on August 09, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
I'd like to see a comp with more than 10k on it handling a 130 HP motor too.
My BDL only has 3k on it now but it looks brand new.
'Have the <'14 style SE comp (the last one before the "latest") in the '09 SERG 117/DD7 (no Dyno, but it's probably good for around 130 on both #s) for 19+k now. Inspected primary around 13k to see how the OE tensioner was doing,(was considering a manual adjuster if the stock auto tensioner was over tightening) all OK, still quiet, no shutdown clunk, at this time, we'll see how much farther it goes before the Primary starts making noise...
I don't beat on it, I wait until full operating temp before any significant engine braking, high speed "Sport Touring" with "The Ball & Chain"...
Formula+ in Primary.
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on August 12, 2015, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on August 10, 2015, 01:21:06 PM
Quote from: Nowhereman on August 09, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
I'd like to see a comp with more than 10k on it handling a 130 HP motor too.
My BDL only has 3k on it now but it looks brand new.
'Have the <'14 style SE comp (the last one before the "latest") in the '09 SERG 117/DD7 (no Dyno, but it's probably good for around 130 on both #s) for 19+k now. Inspected primary around 13k to see how the OE tensioner was doing,(was considering a manual adjuster if the stock auto tensioner was over tightening) all OK, still quiet, no shutdown clunk, at this time, we'll see how much farther it goes before the Primary starts making noise...
I don't beat on it, I wait until full operating temp before any significant engine braking, high speed "Sport Touring" with "The Ball & Chain"...
Formula+ in Primary.
Sorry! I hit quote instead of modify, Duh...
Quote from: Buffalo on August 12, 2015, 09:06:50 AM
A buddy just got a quote for a JIMS 6speed tranny door (07 up), at a local independent. He was told $800 + 13% tax. I believe retail US is $399 or so.
I told him to drive his Honda Civic to Michigan (400 mile round trip), pick one up, and still save $200!! What a Rip Off!! Back in the early 2000's, exchange rate was 1.57 at one point. I bought parts in Wisconsin for less than half the Cdn prices. Dealers wanted $1195.00 for a V&H Pro pipe here, I had one installed for $495 in Sturgis!! Looks like we're back there getting soaked again!! Buffalo
Yeh , what's so special about the US dollar? Damn thing is just plain old paper with no creativity in colours. Boring. Ours dollars are at least metal and our old paper money is now high tech polymers. :hyst:
Ron
It's not made of paper.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 12, 2015, 01:38:40 PM
It's not made of paper.
Well ok, thin rags then. :wink:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2015, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: Buffalo on August 12, 2015, 09:06:50 AM
A buddy just got a quote for a JIMS 6speed tranny door (07 up), at a local independent. He was told $800 + 13% tax. I believe retail US is $399 or so.
I told him to drive his Honda Civic to Michigan (400 mile round trip), pick one up, and still save $200!! What a Rip Off!! Back in the early 2000's, exchange rate was 1.57 at one point. I bought parts in Wisconsin for less than half the Cdn prices. Dealers wanted $1195.00 for a V&H Pro pipe here, I had one installed for $495 in Sturgis!! Looks like we're back there getting soaked again!! Buffalo
Yeh , what's so special about the US dollar? Damn thing is just plain old paper with no creativity in colours. Boring. Ours dollars are at least metal and our old paper money is now high tech polymers. :hyst:
Ron
What's so special about the us $$$.. Ask any one from canada that come to AZ for the winter . Cheap BOOZE . :gob:
Get mine today. Problem is I won't be able to install it for a week or two because my father's drive belt snapped on his 08 flhr. Pops stuff comes first haha
Tell him to quit doing burnouts and he won't break his belt!
And stay the hell off gravel roads!! LOL Buffalo
Quote from: Mark P on February 16, 2015, 02:08:40 PM
Quote from: FSG on February 16, 2015, 01:36:08 PM
Mark, what if that cup was machined off the -07 rotor?
Don't see any reason why that won't work as long as the wall thickness is the same on the out board portion of the rotor.
Anyone know the wall thickness to machine too? .365 from the other thread thanks to FSG
added dim.
Anyone running Red Line MTL with this comp ?