HarleyTechTalk

Interesting
They speak from two sides of their mouth
First they say all of this hardware and kits are EPA and warranty compliant then they go on to say that their new Super Street Tuner will allow timing, throttle progressivity and VE changes??? 
And some of the proponents of more and bigger government wonder..

if they don't have your bike they can't do anything on it.   Even if your bike is at the dealer unless they have the vci  I don't think they can change it with out your permission

The Navajo Nation has brought a suit against the epa over their negligent and reckless action which poisoned the Animus River. Hopefully This gets some national support and the despots in the epa get booted.

Quote from: boooby1744 on August 19, 2016, 03:10:32 AM
The Navajo Nation has brought a suit against the epa over their negligent and reckless action which poisoned the Animus River. Hopefully This gets some national support and the despots in the epa get booted.

they only go after someone if it is not them epa    Environmental Pain (in the) Asses    jmho

Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 19, 2016, 03:04:36 AM
Interesting
They speak from two sides of their mouth
First they say all of this hardware and kits are EPA and warranty compliant then they go on to say that their new Super Street Tuner will allow timing, throttle progressivity and VE changes??? 
And some of the proponents of more and bigger government wonder..

EPA only mandates idle and cruising ranges.  I bet the adjustable areas are outside the EPA mandated areas

Quote from: Rusticwater on August 18, 2016, 10:51:06 AM
The original complaint can be found here. Pages 5-8 make for an interesting read.

Agreed.  Spells it out quite clearly.  Harley certainly made no bones about it being to alter street bikes beyond the federal mandates. 

I wonder if Ducatti is next.  They too make no bones about installing racing equipment on street bikes, even as a pre-purchase option. 

"SEMA lobbyists need to step on it. "

The AMA also.

Meanwhile, citizens of Flint got poisoned while the EPA wasted time on this.

Quote from: Foxtrapper on August 19, 2016, 05:03:35 AM
I wonder if Ducatti is next.  They too make no bones about installing racing equipment on street bikes, even as a pre-purchase option.

Maybe, but considering Ducati sells just a handful of bikes compared to HD it might not be worth their time.

The Street tuner currently allows up to +/- 4VE points 0-2500 RPM, below 30% throttle, and +/-10VE points above this area.
+/-3° timing change allowed 0-2750 RPM and 15-90 KPA, 4° at 3K, 5@3500 and 6° above that.
Run out of head room real quick!

I found with the few street tuners I messed with that because of the large closed loop area that it will change it to what it wants to to be anyway.  I change it to what I want at 80 KPA and closed loop leans it back out anyway.   Kind of a futile system.  Used 110 cals in 103s for the headroom.

  Yep- I'm not a fan of that product.

From speaking with my parts guy yesterday the new tuner will be for 07 up vehicles only(06 dyna?) which would bring me to the conclusion that would mean 02 equipped vehicles only. Quite possibly there will be no edits allowed to the afr target tables.

Correct- AFR target table is locked.

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 19, 2016, 06:44:11 AM
Correct- AFR target table is locked.

Translation= a pretty much useless device.
Ron

Looks like the demand for the older bikes will be going up. Carbed bikes don't need no stink'n super tuner  As has been said, this has been coming for a long time. Back when I first heard about it they were targeting say 08 n up and it looks as if this may be the case. It will be interesting to see how deep this goes and weather or not the epa stops at the dealers or suppliers of tuning devices. I know that if I were contemplating a new bike purchase this would be of major concern to me. It might just be a good idea to look for a nice older bike that has been in storage with very low miles on it, of which there are quite a few that can be found if you look hard enough.

Doubt, with the options available in Nov. it will be a lot of help 

Looks like HDs agreement will also REQUIRE them and their dealers to DENY warranty on any new bikes that have been tuned using any device. 


If you want to read it, here is the settlement.

So it becomes simply an interface to download a pre-canned map from the mother ship. Great.

Zach

Quote from: rbabos on August 19, 2016, 06:56:22 AM

Quote from: rigidthumper on August 19, 2016, 06:44:11 AM
Correct- AFR target table is locked.

Translation= a pretty much useless device.
Ron

Quote from: biggzed on August 19, 2016, 08:49:34 AM
So it becomes simply an interface to download a pre-canned map from the mother ship. Great.

Zach

That's how the big three auto [performance divisions] companies do it... buy their A/C & mufflers they send you a interface tool you connect into the OBCII port.  Customer returns the interface tool and gets their deposit back.  Car still meets the certification.

I've figured a few things out after reviewing the settlement:

1. I had no idea HD was in the wood stove business.
2. We have until 23 August to buy a super tuner (that's just a few days away!)
3. It doesn't appear they can use this as a basis to deny warranty repairs on 2016 and older vehicles.

Damn I'm lucky.

Quote from: Coyote on August 19, 2016, 08:47:49 AM
Looks like HDs agreement will also REQUIRE them and their dealers to DENY warranty on any new bikes that have been tuned using any device. 


If you want to read it, here is the settlement.

It also says that H-D shall deny any powertrain claim for any model year if there is proof of tuning usng a non CARB approved device.  It seems convenient to me that it looks like the new bikes will be very dealer dependent, the timing of it all is not a coincidence

EDIT:  I misread the paragraph, affect MY 2017 and after

Quote from: Princess Butt on August 19, 2016, 09:29:00 AM

2. We have until 23 August to buy a super tuner (that's just a few days away!)

As someone who has only even run carbed..... the whole tuner thing was a bit like looking at your brothers wife, you deliberately didn't pay it much attention... so...

This *may* make my viewpoint valid in the sense that it will put my experience of them (zero) a lot closer to the experience of those making these rules, so maybe some of my preconceptions are shared by them too, and maybe some of them are wrong.

My overall impression was that you could buy, more or less road / sport / race versions, where the road one was just a mild child that allows you to do things like changing mufflers and air filters without putting holes in pistons, the sport one for people who took STREET LEGAL bikes and kept them street legal but really started messing with things like cams and heads and CR's but the tuner itself would still keep you from messing up too much, and the race version for you can change anything you like to anything you like but boy you better know what youre doing or your trash the whole motor.

From my reading of this, and comments now about the '17 up stuff not allowing any changes to AFR for example, I'm starting to think that I was *completely* wrong about all of it, and it has more to do with Adobe software licencing practices, you pay a thousand bucks for the basic version, to unlock the next set of features by 20% you pay another five thou, and to unlock everything all the way to get the actual product you "Potty mouth"king wanted in the first place, the only one that is not deliberately crippled, you pay 10k a seat.

So, if my new understanding is correct, (there would be a first) what we are actually talking about here is software.

Purely software.

Sure, the software is connected to and controlling the hardware (I don't mean the computer / elecronics hardware that is running the software)  just like any SCADA or CNC kit, but no changes are being made to the hardware.

As in, by reflashing the original software, the whole device reverts to what it was when it was shipped.

So are we really discussing something that has close parallels to people trying to make it illegal to jailbreak and phone and uninstall the apps you don't want and install the apps you do and so on?

Which means, if so, that we cannot consider a new HD to be a legal thing when you remove the software or change it, because it would be the same as removing the rear barrel/piston/head, you are considered to be removing an essential part of what is the whole.

Sorry for hijacking this and all, but I find the whole subject fasinating (and terrifying, thin end of the wedge and all that) and want to understand it better.

If I have understood it correctly then it would be like getting a DMCA takedown notice and having your tesla impounded because you patched the software so that it could recognise a large white semi and take avoiding action...

Makes me appreciate the wifes 02/Carb and my 12/TTS bikes even more. Doubt I'll be looking very hard at anything newer from here on out unless/until an aftermarket vci can circumvent this nonsense(I hear that's already in the works?) I don't care about any sort of warranty so that's a non issue for me.

Looks like alot of fuel injected bikes will be going carb if you cannot procure the tuner. I for 1 cannot fathom the epa over reach when all the states except for 2 city's in the country allow  for smog testing.Even here in the Peoples Republic of Nazi Jerzey there is no inspection required for motorcycles and cars older than 1996 do not get inspected. Go TRUMP!!! cause if the witch get elected where in for a whole lot of HURT!!!!



                                                                                                                       MIKE

Quote from: Jonny Cash on August 19, 2016, 09:52:14 AM
It also says that H-D shall deny any powertrain claim for any model year if there is proof of tuning usng a non CARB approved device.  It seems convenient to me that it looks like the new bikes will be very dealer dependent, the timing of it all is not a coincedence

Where does it say that? I only saw reference to 2017 and newer bikes.