HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 19, 2016, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Jonny Cash on August 19, 2016, 09:52:14 AM
It also says that H-D shall deny any powertrain claim for any model year if there is proof of tuning usng a non CARB approved device.  It seems convenient to me that it looks like the new bikes will be very dealer dependent, the timing of it all is not a coincedence

Where does it say that? I only saw reference to 2017 and newer bikes. 

Mis read, it was hard to see on my phone.  Affects MY 2017, sorry for the confusion

Quote from: Jonny Cash on August 19, 2016, 11:25:05 AM

Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 19, 2016, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Jonny Cash on August 19, 2016, 09:52:14 AM
It also says that H-D shall deny any powertrain claim for any model year if there is proof of tuning usng a non CARB approved device.  It seems convenient to me that it looks like the new bikes will be very dealer dependent, the timing of it all is not a coincedence

Where does it say that? I only saw reference to 2017 and newer bikes. 

Section 14 paragraph A

Says model year 2017 and later.

Quote from: m1marty on August 19, 2016, 11:05:05 AM
Makes me appreciate the wifes 02/Carb and my 12/TTS bikes even more. Doubt I'll be looking very hard at anything newer from here on out unless/until an aftermarket vci can circumvent this nonsense(I hear that's already in the works?) I don't care about any sort of warranty so that's a non issue for me.

Trump said he's going to get rid of the EPA. I don't think it will be eliminated completely but downsized a LOT. I think they write twice as many laws every year than congress.

Also, unless I read it wrong (entirely possible) the Pro tuner downloads even for '16- bikes will no longer be available.

Quote from: wfolarry on August 19, 2016, 12:37:34 PM

Quote from: m1marty on August 19, 2016, 11:05:05 AM
Makes me appreciate the wifes 02/Carb and my 12/TTS bikes even more. Doubt I'll be looking very hard at anything newer from here on out unless/until an aftermarket vci can circumvent this nonsense(I hear that's already in the works?) I don't care about any sort of warranty so that's a non issue for me.

Trump said he's going to get rid of the EPA. I don't think it will be eliminated completely but downsized a LOT. I think they write twice as many laws every year than congress.

Beijing got rid of their EPA too:

Quote from: PoorUB on August 18, 2016, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: BVHOG on August 18, 2016, 01:58:17 PMAs an independent shop they would have to prove each and every motorcycle tuned did not meet emissions. Otherwise it would just be speculation. Besides, the guys that come here are all going from my shop  on a trailer to the races from here.

Not really, if the bike was altered from the original configuration when it left you shop you could be in trouble with the EPA.

Stick a different air cleaner and/or mufflers on it and you just broke the law. You don't even have to re-tune it to have the EPA after you.

I'm pretty sure that a non-compliant bike leaving your shop even if all you did was replace a wheel bearing could currently get you in trouble.  It's been several years now that the local chainsaw shop won't touch a wrench to a saw which has been modified from EPA compliance - unless they can restore it to such a state first (and of course, you pay for that as well).  Back when the owner first told me about that (years ago) the (threatened) fine was already upwards of 15k.

Quote from: jbexeter on August 19, 2016, 09:57:19 AM
As someone who has only even run carbed..... the whole tuner thing was a bit like looking at your brothers wife, you deliberately didn't pay it much attention... so...

  That was pretty good...

Quote
... Purely software. ...

If I have understood it correctly then it would be like getting a DMCA takedown notice ...

Altering the ECM programming through any means other than what's approved (and even doing so with said equipment but going beyond what it was designed to do) could very well land a DMCA violation in your lap, as well as the EPA violation.  It'd be akin to being charged with robbing a bank and also being charged with using a gun while doing it.

--

My understanding from reading EPA documents in days gone by is that alteration of any emissions aspect of a certified gasoline engine-powered whatever results in the creation of a new whatever which cannot be used until such time as it gets certification of its own.

Harley offers big-bore kits, etc. which when used in their entirety, and only in their entirety (with ECM programming, &c.) will result in a compliant motorcycle because they've gotten EPA certification for those packages being used on their certified bikes.

The way I read the EPA stuff is that it pertains not only to manufacturers, but also to end users.  The violations are clearly spelled out but there really isn't a mechanism in place to enforce them.  It's worth their time and trouble to dig into deep pockets but they'd likely spend more than they'd get by going after an end user right now.  They'll probably just do an end run on us by making the states do their dirty work for them at registration renewal time.  We'll get a visual inspection, and passing that, be tested for noise/air pollution and get charged the extra 35 or whatever bucks for it all.

I know there's more to be had for not too much investment, but I gotta say my '14 Limited runs pretty good and ain't too loud with only some old mufflers thrown on.  To say the bikes aren't running "right" as-delivered is really being a bit dramatic.

I've got the previously-referenced documents open in new tabs and will get to them after dinner.  Should be a good read...

here in Commy New Jersey they doubled the registration and dropped the inspection on bikes and do emissions only on cars.

you could go thru nj insp with broken windshields lights not working or totally broken.

everybody thinks that was good except that when insp stopped on bike the registration never came down. and the cars get more equipment tickets keeping the po po in business

jmho

So, for all those who had their local dealer sell them a ESP, and say they will take care of them, despite the dealer installed parts, time for a refund of that ESP.   

I ran into a friend today that is the regional rep for Drag Specialties and this subject came up in the conversation. From his perspective, the aftermarket is really liking this so far. Also stopped by the dealership to try and buy one of the remaining super tuners. They had none in stock and couldn't get anymore of them. The guys at the arts counter were really indifferent to the situation.

Well, the history between Steve Cole and TTS and the original HD SE tuner's is nothing new to most of us. Too many it will be the first time they have heard about it.

Always better stuff out there......! 

-Tutt

 

One Day the EPA will shut down all makers of aftermarket tuning devices, lock down ECM's thus putting most Indy's out of business.  Not too soon but will come.  With Global climate changes putting pressure on our environment it's just a mater of time.  Too late but a mater of time.  Damage been done is in the past.  Sadly we will all be riding Electric bikes in 15 years.. But they sure is Torquie!!  Heck, your gonna see clean burning Lawn mowers very soon!

What boggles my mind is the sheer scale of this thing. Three hundred forty thousand of these "racing use only" tuners sold in the last eight years? According to Harley's reports to Wall Street, they move about 270,000 bikes a year. Do the math: 8 x 270,000/340,000 says that one in six Harleys sold in the last eight years had a "closed-course competition use only" tuner installed on it.

HD brass really thought that would slip under the EPA's radar? They should re-hire whoever was CEO when they came up with that brilliant idea, just so they can fire him again.

Of course, there's the bigger question of why Harley-Davidson is pretty much alone among motorcycle manufacturers in selling bikes that seem to need an add-on tuner to run properly (if one in six have the "race" tuner, how many more have the "street" tuner?). BMW, Honda, Polaris, etc., all seem to meet EPA requirements and run well right out of the box. This sounds to me like a problem of too little engineering, not too much regulation.

The one bit of potentially good news is in the timing of this agreement. I don't think it's a coincidence that the restrictive stuff (all bikes sold by Harley, including those equipped with H-D tuners, must still meet EPA requirements) only applies to bikes sold after 8/23, which is pretty close to the new model introduction. I'm hoping this means that the new eight-valve engine will actually run like it should while meeting emission limits. Heck, every other manufacturer can do it... why shouldn't Harley?

Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 20, 2016, 05:59:18 AMHeck, your gonna see clean burning Lawn mowers very soon!

The EPA already killed off the two stroke Lawn Boy. I am waiting for EFI on my lawn mower. Pretty sure the two stoke is verboten in Kalifornia.

Just a couple of things for thought;

1) As far as fuek injected lawnmowers they are very close. I was looking at generators a few days ago and the hottest new thing out there is fuel injected by Honda. I ask the salesman about the lawnmowers etc. He smiles. Also have a friend that is in the lawn, power equipment biz, his biggest products right now,,,cordless chainsaws, edgers, weedeaters etc. He let me use a chainsaw for a few days. I was very skeptical, but then amazed, it was something I would consider. Not for all day use, but as a homeowner it was very workable.

2) As much as I would like to think that the aftermarket tuner business is safe I will give a hypothetical example, take it for what it is worth. Joe and Bob live across the street from each other. Parking is limited and Joe has to park in a lot down the street, Bob has a great spot in front of his house, only issue is the law says that you can not park within 10 feet of the fire hydrant. Bob has been parking there, it is close, he is 9 feet 4 inches from the hydrant. One day Bob gets summoned to court, you have been parking illegally for 90 days and the fine is $1000 per day, you owe $90,000. Bob bargains down, pays $10,000 in fines, promises to never park there again and clears his name. He sells his car at a loss and starts riding the bus. Well, Joe see's this great parking spot open up, see's a chance to keep his monthly parking fee in his pocket and starts parking there. Close to home, extra money in his pocket, he is smiling. How long do you think this will last? Will Bob sit back, out alot of money, had to get rid of his car, rides the bus everyday, is he going to be happy for Joe or will he devise a plan to make Joe pay, and pay big. After all he gave up alot, I think he will put his thumb on Joe as soon as he will suffer like he did. If you think the mothership is sitting back going WOW, we are so happy to be out those few millions, dont have to bother selling those pesky tuners any more and we are so happy that the aftermarket guys will profit greatly, you may want to rethink things.

Quote from: PoorUB on August 20, 2016, 07:04:51 AM

Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 20, 2016, 05:59:18 AMHeck, your gonna see clean burning Lawn mowers very soon!

The EPA already killed off the two stroke Lawn Boy. I am waiting for EFI on my lawn mower. Pretty sure the two stoke is verboten in Kalifornia.

Does that apply to detroit diesel too???

A lawn mower with fuel injection sounds pretty good to me. Maybe I can hold out another year or two before buying a new zero turn or whatever they are called. Had no idea that fuel injection on chain saws and other yard tools was an issue. Crazy.

My John Deere lawn tractor is fuel injected...great machine.  I don't think JD has a tuner available for it though....

Being that Kent moore is the one that HD has hired to produce the super tuner, they  make changes to software as well any other items   I can see this being pretty simple really. Kent more puts their name on it and its sold as a tool that simple.. It never been made by HD it has always been made by another company .  No different than a dealer ordering a part from Drag or tucker rocky ..

Quote from: jbexeter on August 20, 2016, 07:34:08 AM

Quote from: PoorUB on August 20, 2016, 07:04:51 AM

Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 20, 2016, 05:59:18 AMHeck, your gonna see clean burning Lawn mowers very soon!

The EPA already killed off the two stroke Lawn Boy. I am waiting for EFI on my lawn mower. Pretty sure the two stoke is verboten in Kalifornia.

Does that apply to detroit diesel too???

Since you asked.....

Tier 1 emission standards for off-road diesels were adopted in '94 to be implemented in '96

The last 2-cycle detroit diesels (71 & 92 series) went off the market in summer of '95 and were replaced by 4 cycle Detroit Diesels....

Now I think they are up to Tier 3 or 4 to be compliant... These restrictions are not just in CA... You can still run the old stuff (I have a pair of 8V71Ti in my boat) you just can't get them in new boats...

CA put restrictions on the SALE of new 2-cycle outboard marine engines in about 2004... that's when it became impossible to buy a new, small 2-cycle outboard in CA. There are a few lakes and rivers that have restrictions on the USE of 2-cycle marine engines, but the use restrictions are not as widespread as some think...

Quote from: ScottFree on August 20, 2016, 06:28:59 AM
What boggles my mind is the sheer scale of this thing. Three hundred forty thousand of these "racing use only" tuners sold in the last eight years? According to Harley's reports to Wall Street, they move about 270,000 bikes a year. Do the math: 8 x 270,000/340,000 says that one in six Harleys sold in the last eight years had a "closed-course competition use only" tuner installed on it.

HD brass really thought that would slip under the EPA's radar? They should re-hire whoever was CEO when they came up with that brilliant idea, just so they can fire him again.

Of course, there's the bigger question of why Harley-Davidson is pretty much alone among motorcycle manufacturers in selling bikes that seem to need an add-on tuner to run properly (if one in six have the "race" tuner, how many more have the "street" tuner?). BMW, Honda, Polaris, etc., all seem to meet EPA requirements and run well right out of the box. This sounds to me like a problem of too little engineering, not too much regulation.

The one bit of potentially good news is in the timing of this agreement. I don't think it's a coincidence that the restrictive stuff (all bikes sold by Harley, including those equipped with H-D tuners, must still meet EPA requirements) only applies to bikes sold after 8/23, which is pretty close to the new model introduction. I'm hoping this means that the new eight-valve engine will actually run like it should while meeting emission limits. Heck, every other manufacturer can do it... why shouldn't Harley?

I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm afraid the Harley engine architecture has been taken about as far as it can go.  I was riding my 2012 RGU yesterday thinking what a great job it does at running down the highway, except that the heat from the engine, especially in traffic, is ridiculous.  And that's with a Fullsac stage 1 and a good tune.  In contrast, the BMW boxer engine, which has been around almost as long as the Harley, now puts out 125 hp out of 74 ci., with no bad manners.  I'm an old fart, but I think it's time for a change.  Maybe HD should take a look at using a variation of the the V-Rod engine in some of the touring bikes.

"Given Harley-Davidson's prominence in the industry, this is a very significant step toward our goal of stopping the sale of illegal aftermarket defeat devices that cause harmful pollution on our roads and in our communities," said Assistant Attorney General John C. Cruden, head of the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division, in a statement.

"Anyone else who manufactures, sells, or installs these types of illegal products should take heed of Harley-Davidson's corrective actions and immediately stop violating the law."

California ab435 bill was the start, VW getting caught, well that got the EPA's attention how little company's thought about the laws...

If you think company's are not looking how quickly they can dump their current inventory, before dropping the products in question from their product line... well not much anyone can say 


* If you read the legal documents, defeat products are not limited to tuning devices... 

Quote from: jbexeter on August 20, 2016, 07:34:08 AM

Quote from: PoorUB on August 20, 2016, 07:04:51 AM

Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 20, 2016, 05:59:18 AMHeck, your gonna see clean burning Lawn mowers very soon!

The EPA already killed off the two stroke Lawn Boy. I am waiting for EFI on my lawn mower. Pretty sure the two stoke is verboten in Kalifornia.

Does that apply to detroit diesel too???

They have been dead here in CA for many years now,  nobody will make emission kit for them,  can't even use them as a yard dog here. 

Thinking about stocking up on Tuners?  May be a good market for them in the near future for resale?  Hmm....

Quote from: DOM on August 18, 2016, 12:52:27 PM
I was just speculating on the future of the entire aftermarket.  The EPA is also trying to make it impossible to modify ANY vehicle which was certified even to use as a strictly off road race vehicle.  I'm talking true race cars.  SEMA has been warning about it for a while and asking people to sign petitions to stop it.  The EPA has a LOT of resources to crush anyone who stands up to them, financially and possibly criminally.  A very sad day for sure.

Yup, I signed the petition and sent it to my representitives here in NY ( almost as bad as California!). Got the standard canned response from one thanking me for my concern but stating "she" agreed with the proposed legislation. I responded to her and told her it was what I expected from a bought and paid for lap dog and I would be seeing her at the polls. No further response back. The EPA has been far too powerful since the 1980's. There needs to be change in this country now! I lived in CA for a year in 87-88, though a beautiful State and a place I like to visit from time to time, I saw the writing on the wall (canasters on bikes  ). Won't be long before this boob Governor here in NY signs on also, can't wait to get out of here also after retirement next spring.

Quote from: Herko on August 18, 2016, 02:37:46 PM
November 8th cannot get here soon enough.

So true Herko, so true.