HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: ramcr913 on March 29, 2013, 07:40:59 PM
"Which reusable oil filter system is the best? Why?"
I saw the title and went directly to page 2, and read the last 4 posts. 

Ah, sometimes that involves lube too!



Thanks Jeff and troop for the cleaning suggestion.  The lady will appreciate me not cleaning my filter with gasoline in the kitchen sink!

Gasoline -in- the house.  If I didn't blow the place up I'd get shot anyhow.

I brought Gas into my house once about 30 years ago and wa cleaning my old Triumph Amal carb.  Wife said "Really"... I walked right back out the door with it and said yea, really?  That was the last time I brought gas in the house.  I don't think i'll think of that again.

Dropping a butt in the toilet could get a lot more exciting.....

Quote from: Jeffd on March 29, 2013, 02:46:44 PM
experience tells me that RCH is about twice as thick as a blonde one and can scratch a cornea if you are not careful.

Jeff, will take your word on that.  Preferring an absolute zero-micron rating, I don't run any risk of eye injuries or foreign oral particles.

Wow has this one absolutely gone sideways!  One more question before this gets shut down. If I have this filter thing correct, OEM filter has an absolute rating of 50 microns and the K&P has a rating of 35. Does anyone know the bypass specs on either of these? I really never thought of it (and I have been through some school) but .0035" or .004" is a pretty large chunk of schizen!

Quote from: fbn ent on March 30, 2013, 08:28:52 AM
Wow has this one absolutely gone sideways!  One more question before this gets shut down. If I have this filter thing correct, OEM filter has an absolute rating of 50 microns and the K&P has a rating of 35. Does anyone know the bypass specs on either of these? I really never thought of it (and I have been through some school) but .0035" or .004" is a pretty large chunk of schizen!

Bypass on cleanables are set so high they never open. Oem opens only when it needs to and never open fully. It only makes up the difference that the media restriction causes. Since oil has been cleaned from previous run it's not like it's dumping gravel into the engine anyway.
.0035 -.004 is often too big to get between moving parts to cause a problem, other than the oil pump itself. Now .001 or 35 micron is a perfect size to slip in position and gouge things up. 5-10 micron will move in but is less abrasive , usually gets flushed through. In around .001 or matching clearance size the partical hangs aroung longer scoring things up.
Ron

I have a K&P and would have to say it has so much Flo it will never go into bypass. The filter reminds me of the high end filters used on turbines  Governor systems, and the rare earth magnets are very powerful. I cant see how the paper OEM can compete. Of course Harley would never use such a fine piece it cost to much. Cheap is beautiful to them. Don't know how all the people that think the cranks are junk figure there paper filter is the cat,s meow.   Of course there gonna tell you its the best. 20bucks for a chrome filter that cost them a buck to mass produce.   Bob

".001 or 35 micron is a perfect size to slip in position and gouge things up. 5-10 micron will move in but is less abrasive , usually gets flushed through. In around .001 or matching clearance size the particle hangs around longer scoring things up."

I guess I made a miscalculation    1 micron + .0014". That is for sure the right size to cause some damage. I believe all of the oil will go through the screen type as the mesh is so much larger than the paper ones. I also realize the bypass is always at least partially open on any paper filter on any kind of unit as they can't handle then flow. Heavy equipment has bypass filters of one kind or another to filter what gets past the primary filter. I suppose if someone came up with a good looking setup for bypass filtering it would make $$$. (My idea! Let me know so I get royalties ) I also wonder what the specs are on microfiber filters like Per-Form. I haven't been able to find that information.

So, all that being said, the screen type have 100% stopping power for 35+ microns (or whatever their absolute value is) and the "absolute" will get smaller as the screen picks up material. Paper may stop finer particles with the medium but won't stop a piece of gravel if the bypass happens to let it through. It is a no brainer for pre-Twinkies but with their closer tolerances it is still a bit of a quandary for me although I have seen some pretty good reports in this thread. Decisions    Decisions.....

Quote from: rbabos on March 30, 2013, 08:46:56 AM
Bypass on cleanables are set so high they never open. Oem opens only when it needs to and never open fully. It only makes up the difference that the media restriction causes.Ron

I don't think this is correct. Someone here did a test showing that the OEM flter goes into bypass rather quickly and often. As for the cleanables, I would like to see some evidence of that claim. The spring on mine actually feels farly weak. Next time I clean it, I will measure the spring pressure and post it.

Quote from: fbn ent on March 30, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
".001 or 35 micron is a perfect size to slip in position and gouge things up. 5-10 micron will move in but is less abrasive , usually gets flushed through. In around .001 or matching clearance size the particle hangs around longer scoring things up."

I guess I made a miscalculation    1 micron + .0014". That is for sure the right size to cause some damage. I believe all of the oil will go through the screen type as the mesh is so much larger than the paper ones. I also realize the bypass is always at least partially open on any paper filter on any kind of unit as they can't handle then flow. Heavy equipment has bypass filters of one kind or another to filter what gets past the primary filter. I suppose if someone came up with a good looking setup for bypass filtering it would make $$$. (My idea! Let me know so I get royalties ) I also wonder what the specs are on microfiber filters like Per-Form. I haven't been able to find that information.

So, all that being said, the screen type have 100% stopping power for 35+ microns (or whatever their absolute value is) and the "absolute" will get smaller as the screen picks up material. Paper may stop finer particles with the medium but won't stop a piece of gravel if the bypass happens to let it through. It is a no brainer for pre-Twinkies but with their closer tolerances it is still a bit of a quandary for me although I have seen some pretty good reports in this thread. Decisions    Decisions.....

Oil has been cleaned all day as you ride. It's not like there's a sneaky little bastard piece of gravel hiding in there just waiting for the bypass to open the next day on a cold start. The bypass opens on a differential between inlet and outlet. Lets use a conservative psi of 8.
Running the prem5 and around 3000km I've seen a 2psi drop from the element slowly plugging up. Even at 4 psi drop the bypass will remain closed. It will however open sooner with throttle blipping and when cold but in normal hot oil conditions the bypass is closed. I ran my oil pressure pickup point after the filter so I could witness the element plugging up and see the pressure drop as the result. Basically in the small amount of times the bypass opens the engine hasn't had time to make debri the filter needs to catch anyway.
Ron

QuoteI guess I made a miscalculation

I'm not following any of you calculations   

1 micron = 0.000001m (1 millionth of a metre)

1 micron = .00004" (0.0000393701)

35 micron = .0014" (0.0013779528)

FSG Yeah, that's what I had.....just didn't get typed in correctly (and I proofread it three times!). Second

Ron, I guess I was mislead in Heavy Equipment Tech Training...Interesting that you have run pressure tests on this. If this is indeed definitive, the only spec needed is the absolute value of the prem5 or other filter to make the best call not based on $$. The one unknown variable for contamination of the oil is the ham handed wrench opening a path for entry.

Quote from: rbabos on March 30, 2013, 10:25:49 AM

Quote from: fbn ent on March 30, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
".001 or 35 micron is a perfect size to slip in position and gouge things up. 5-10 micron will move in but is less abrasive , usually gets flushed through. In around .001 or matching clearance size the particle hangs around longer scoring things up."

I guess I made a miscalculation    1 micron + .0014". That is for sure the right size to cause some damage. I believe all of the oil will go through the screen type as the mesh is so much larger than the paper ones. I also realize the bypass is always at least partially open on any paper filter on any kind of unit as they can't handle then flow. Heavy equipment has bypass filters of one kind or another to filter what gets past the primary filter. I suppose if someone came up with a good looking setup for bypass filtering it would make $$$. (My idea! Let me know so I get royalties ) I also wonder what the specs are on microfiber filters like Per-Form. I haven't been able to find that information.

So, all that being said, the screen type have 100% stopping power for 35+ microns (or whatever their absolute value is) and the "absolute" will get smaller as the screen picks up material. Paper may stop finer particles with the medium but won't stop a piece of gravel if the bypass happens to let it through. It is a no brainer for pre-Twinkies but with their closer tolerances it is still a bit of a quandary for me although I have seen some pretty good reports in this thread. Decisions    Decisions.....

Oil has been cleaned all day as you ride. It's not like there's a sneaky little bastard piece of gravel hiding in there just waiting for the bypass to open the next day on a cold start. The bypass opens on a differential between inlet and outlet. Lets use a conservative psi of 8.
Running the prem5 and around 3000km I've seen a 2psi drop from the element slowly plugging up. Even at 4 psi drop the bypass will remain closed. It will however open sooner with throttle blipping and when cold but in normal hot oil conditions the bypass is closed. I ran my oil pressure pickup point after the filter so I could witness the element plugging up and see the pressure drop as the result. Basically in the small amount of times the bypass opens the engine hasn't had time to make debri the filter needs to catch anyway.
Ron

  wouldnt you need a before and after the filter pressure gauge so you could note a differential pressure between the 2 to know whats going on? Thats the way we monitor filter condition on machinery I have worked on.  Bob

Thanks Bob. That is the way we do it. I haven't had to do this for some time.

Quote from: FXDBI on March 30, 2013, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: rbabos on March 30, 2013, 10:25:49 AM

Quote from: fbn ent on March 30, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
".001 or 35 micron is a perfect size to slip in position and gouge things up. 5-10 micron will move in but is less abrasive , usually gets flushed through. In around .001 or matching clearance size the particle hangs around longer scoring things up."

I guess I made a miscalculation    1 micron + .0014". That is for sure the right size to cause some damage. I believe all of the oil will go through the screen type as the mesh is so much larger than the paper ones. I also realize the bypass is always at least partially open on any paper filter on any kind of unit as they can't handle then flow. Heavy equipment has bypass filters of one kind or another to filter what gets past the primary filter. I suppose if someone came up with a good looking setup for bypass filtering it would make $$$. (My idea! Let me know so I get royalties ) I also wonder what the specs are on microfiber filters like Per-Form. I haven't been able to find that information.

So, all that being said, the screen type have 100% stopping power for 35+ microns (or whatever their absolute value is) and the "absolute" will get smaller as the screen picks up material. Paper may stop finer particles with the medium but won't stop a piece of gravel if the bypass happens to let it through. It is a no brainer for pre-Twinkies but with their closer tolerances it is still a bit of a quandary for me although I have seen some pretty good reports in this thread. Decisions    Decisions.....

Oil has been cleaned all day as you ride. It's not like there's a sneaky little bastard piece of gravel hiding in there just waiting for the bypass to open the next day on a cold start. The bypass opens on a differential between inlet and outlet. Lets use a conservative psi of 8.
Running the prem5 and around 3000km I've seen a 2psi drop from the element slowly plugging up. Even at 4 psi drop the bypass will remain closed. It will however open sooner with throttle blipping and when cold but in normal hot oil conditions the bypass is closed. I ran my oil pressure pickup point after the filter so I could witness the element plugging up and see the pressure drop as the result. Basically in the small amount of times the bypass opens the engine hasn't had time to make debri the filter needs to catch anyway.
Ron

  wouldnt you need a before and after the filter pressure gauge so you could note a differential pressure between the 2 to know whats going on? Thats the way we monitor filter condition on machinery I have worked on.  Bob

Yes, two gauges. First test was done to determine what the pressure is at oem pre filter. On a new filter and hot there was no detectable difference between pre and aft. If splitting hairs, maybe 1psi is all I saw when hot. This is with the prem5. Cold was way more interesting. Oem pickup showed close to 40psi in the spring temps and after filter was showing around 10 lower. 5 years ago so don't remember exact numbers. At idle and cold oil prem5 aft filter idle pressure was around 27psi. If reved up it would momentarily jump to 32 and drop back to 25-27. Pressure is lost in the operation of the bypass. As the engine heated up my aft reading actually climbed due to less media restriction and close bypass valve. When hot and a new filter the inlet and outlet matched up pretty close. At around 3000kms I started to see a differential reading again from restriction. For the hell of it I ran a K&N and the cold differential was way less, matched inlet and outlets way sooner and never showed any restriction, even up to 5000kms.
I'm assuming the K&N is about 10 micron, bp pressure unknown but after seeing all this crap I never used the prem5 again. Pulled the feed side gauge and moved on with life. Oh,the K&N also put out an honest 2psi higher than the Prem5 did new. Difference being the Prem5 dropped 2psi nominal prior to normal oil change intervals each and every time. K&N never lost pressure from new to change time. Not a lab test by no means but enough data to see what actually goes on. Oem location really don't tell what the engine really sees. Filter could be plugged up solid and it will still show normal psi. Aft filter pickup point is the upper plug in front of the filter housing.
Ron

 I've been using a Pegasus filter for some time now.
Any opinions good or bad?

Quote from: eglideic on April 01, 2013, 01:53:08 PM
I've been using a Pegasus filter for some time now.
Any opinions good or bad?

Your engine is still humming along right? So what's that say?