This really SUCKS!!!!

[Biker72]

I hadn't really had the opprotunity to ride a long distance since I got the bike back from the shop so today I had to pull a split shift so I rode to work. The darn thing got to 275 degrees. It was in the low 90's here today so when I went to work it was hotter than usual since I ride at night mostly.
The bike runs really good since the timing has been set and I got no pinging but I could tell by the heat between my legs that she was HOT!!! I'm not hearing any noises or taps from the motor everything seems fine except for the heat coming from the motor. No smoking, missing, lean surge nothing. The only thing I did notice was a couple of times when I came up to a red light the motor wanted to stay idled up for a few seconds and twice I had to slip the clutch to get it to come down which I hadn't had happen before.

The timing has been set
plugs look good according to me and the indy I took it to.
He rejetted the carb. richer 68-70 main and .295-.031 int.
He and I both have checked for intake leaks
I took off the cap under the seat and could see oil coming back to the tank.
50W oil

The manual says for overheating
Carb. Adjustment (lean)
wrong plugs
carbon build up
leaking valve(s)
cam plate stuck retarded
dirty air filter

I know this is a long post but want to give as much info. as possible.
Thanks for any ideas
Duke

[rbonner]

OK this is way out of control...  I went back and looked at EVERY POST regarding this situation.

I noted that you didn't answer a question I had regarding the type of ignition you had on the bike, electronic or stock.  If it is electronic and the VOES wire is grounded all the time the motor will burn up because the timing curve will be shifted.

The next thing you didn't mention if you did Easy's check with the right gas cap.  If it is not working right it will cause a lean condition as a vacuum will form in your tank.

Dragging the clutch is not an approved method for lowering the RPM, but the RPM might be indicating a vacuum in the fuel tanks.

When we mention this stuff you HAVE TO TRY THE TESTS and report back the findings.  The tank will sound like the reverse of a pop bottle when you open it and you will see the fuel actually go down in level in about a second.

The fact that it is hitting 300 now, you have got to figure this stuff out, or you won't have much engine left.  Break in after rebuild.  My shovel cooled off within 50 miles on the clock.  Now I can take it for longer rides.


Anyway, time to report these tests before we go any further.

BOB

[easyricer]

What Bob said!
EASY

[easyricer]

Duke, for fun and games..... It looks like you are running points, am I right? So am I. get a good look at your points cam. does it show ANY wear at all?  On my 76 a few years ago (before she was mine) I had to replace the points cam due to wear.
Another point to look at is the position of the cam on the advance unit. If it's backwards, the rear cylinder timing will be off. Some of the China repop ignitions have that pin in the backside of the cam pushed in so far that you can put it in backwards and it still go on feeling like it's right.
Another thing, with points, you have to run solid core plug wires, if not you'll burn up your condenser and she'll run hot like you have the wrong pugs in her.
Most of these things will make her hard to start, but she will run like that. Since it's a fresh build, you don't yet really know for sure what kind of power she is supposed to have.
More tests....
Keep at it man, we'll figure this out!
EASY

[easyricer]

One more thought...... loosen up all of your push rods by a half a turn, she'll be a bit louder but you'll know for sure that the valves will be all the way closed once the motor reaches full temp.
EASY

[76shuvlinoff]

If you do not have a well vented right side gas cap you need a Tee in the crossover line under the dash that vents to atmosphere. Most of these Ts are done away with in favor of a vented cap.

one thing at a time, simple stuff first.

[Biker72]

Sorry guys I could have swore somewhere along the lines that I had said DYNA S ignition which the bike has had for the past 10 or more years ( not new to the build).

The right side gas cap is also the one I have been running for years and I did try running it for about 5 miles without the cap but didn't notice any change. Not really comfortable riding down the highway with no cap on. I had a problem with the right cap years ago before I got the one I have. I would ride about 5-10 miles or so and it would start bucking and trying to cut off twist the cap and off you'd go.

At this point I am past it being anything to do with the "new build" I know I had at least 1500- 2000 miles on the bike before I let it sit and it is 100 miles round trip to work so I am in the 3- 4000 mile range now.

Before I let the bike sit I was having issues getting the bike tuned just right but never a heating issue. The bike if I remember correctly never ran over 200.

The guy I carried it to said that he had ridden the bike 15 miles or so at about 50-55 mph and it never got over 220 and that was after letting it sit and idle for 20 minutes in the shop with a fan blowing. I wish I could watch the temp. to see when and under what condition it starts getting hot.

Question about the oiling system. I noticed when I had the cap off that the oil seemed to be coming in faster than it was going out but just assumed it worked off of vacuum since it has a spring and locking cap. I think I read on here someone saying that the oil is by flow and not pressure on these and wondering if the flow could somehow be restricted without causing the oil light to come on. I don't know maybe I'm grasping at straws here.
Later
Duke

[catmcaw]

  Could there be a sumping problem?  I once heard that would make a motor run hot but maybe not to the degree you are talking about.

[MikeL]

I have been following this situation for a while also. You said the engine was re done was it off frame ? This may be a shot in the dark but were the routes of the oil lines checked? I'm just asking because when I converted my primary to separate reservoir I screwed up with the venting hoses. I plugged the main vent and used the former oil return from primary to engine as the vent. I didn't run very long so temps were not a problem with this mistake of mine
There is 1 thing I do notice that has never changed. When I fire her up first thing cold around a minute the oil cooler is already getting warm to the touch. I don't have a thermostat to control oil temps to the cooler. As far as I know although I have never checked the oil temp it seems to be ok no heat blaring on my legs and the oil pressure is never below 20 psi.

                                                                       MIKE

[Biker72]

Yes the motor was out of frame and since the motor started running hot I changed the oil lines cause I thought there may have been some trash from sitting up. So all new oil lines.
On another note I just went to 3 different Stealers to get an oil filter and non had one  I gotta get a filter online and pay $10 shipping for a $5 oil filter? I think I want a Honda 

[monty101]

I would bet my first born your problem is associated with a timing issue. some of these guys should be able to help you fix that problem. I run points and I had a hot engine problem too but it was because I needed to advance the points base plate to the peg because some cams have a slot that the advance sets in that require a "big" adjustment to where the base plate is tightened down. I went from a andrews b to a leineweber l51.......I couldn't hardly stand to set on it at a stop light and I run an oil cooler......

fram oil filter xref:
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterXRef.html

[HotRodShovel]

Take a look into your oil tank while she's running and make sure you have a strong return flow. If not then the problem lies within your oil route. That should not be too tough to deal with. Just a matter of clearing out the oil passages or a bad pump.
But I would check that flow.

[rbonner]

I think this is a different problem than oil flow.  At least I think.
The bike ran OK, was laid up for a year and wasn't ridden, when it was returned to service it had a problem; right?

I suspect this had the problem before it was parked, it just wasn't noticed.  This bike needs to be brought to a reputable shop, knowledgeable in Shovels and shook out.

What these forums are good for is getting ideas of what to do to shake out the problems.  Not all advice is good and sometimes you get ideas that steer you away from the right direction.  Troubleshooting is an artform.  If you bypass an item because you think its too hard to do, or "can't possibly be the problem" through stubbornness...  You will screw yourself.

Quick story.  I sold my 94 Ultra, it had a problem in the cruise control.  I had told the guy I would discount it $500 or I would get it fixed.  He said get it fixed.  Took it to the dealer.  They shotgunned it, new servo and new control cable, they said it needed both.  Still didn't work.

I said, OK lets go through this.  Opened the manual, the first thing it says in the manual is the cruise control self checks and the dashboard light will come on; if it doesn't the bulb is burned out... change the bulb.  He says, well that's not the problem MOVE ON TO #2...  I said WHOA there TEX...  It says to change the bulb.  Change the bulb the cruise control will not function without that bulb in there, it says so right here.

The dealer WILL NOT remove parts once they install them, poor procedures cost me $500 in parts alone on that fiasco, because the tech didn't follow the instructions.  The new owner got free new parts.

At this point if this was my bike....

1. I'd remove the dual fire ignition and install a late model single fire ignition and coil.  Sell old one on eBay. Timing these new ignitions is just rotate the crank by bumping the rear wheel and watching the LED on the module.  The unit automatically sets the advance.  No light needed.

2. I'd have the shop degree the cam.  This means actually checking the opening and closing of the valves in respect to the crank.  The reason for doing this (and the instructions that come with all cams say DO THIS) is to verify everything.  I had a factory Harley Stage 2 cam with the stamps 1 tooth off.  I didn't have my bike for 6 months because the dealer couldn't figure out the problem.  I told them several times to DEGREE THE CAM.  They obviously didn't understand what I was talking about.  They finally sent the cam back to HD and they looked it over and found the problem.  The bike did run, but like crap.

I hate people that say, this can't be the problem and move on, costs me a fortune and a ton of down time.

3. set the valves properly.
4. rebuild the carb, make sure she is 100% a sitting carb becomes a mess.
5. drain gas and use it in the lawnmower.  Inspect the tank, take off the petcock and clean the screen and reinstall, or even replace with a nice new chrome one, they are only $22 bucks.
6. I would check each oil line visually to make sure they are headed to the right place.
7. Where is that case vent line going?  Its not plugged off is it?  The vent next to the oil pump, either needs to go to the air cleaner or vented to open air.  Plug that bitch and you'll be pumping against a closed crankcase like an air compressor.
8. if oil is pumping back into the oil tank you are OK and the light is out.
9. you already rode the bike with the cap off, well that isn't what we said, but OK.  What we'd said is ride and then pop the cap and see if the level drops and there's a big suck of air going in.
10.  another test would be remove the line from the cab and over a bottle open the petcock and see if the gas flows freely in both reserve and ON.  The right cap is a wobbly vent.  The new version of the caps use bike vibration to open the vent.  So if you just sit and drain gas they won't drain. Tap the cap and it will.  You can test this by yuk, sucking on the cap from the inside and tapping it.  You'll see what I mean.  The old caps just vented.  That's why one of us here had a problem with the new caps, Mark or Easy, can't remember.  Need to be vibrated.

Well that's all I can think about here right now.  I would start at #1 and work my way right down the list and do all these things.  Its just like commissioning a new engine, all the same stuff.  Something is wrong and I'd sure want to get to the bottom of it.  Skip a step and sure as heck it will be the item you skip.

BOB

[76shuvlinoff]

Duke I remember you having a problem before you took a break from the boards. I can't remember exactly what it was (overheating? smoking?) but it seems like it was a bear to clear up and I think Bob is right, you had trouble before you put her up. The sequence of events for your bike is important as far as the the rest of us getting a picture. I know you've been to an Indy but maybe it's time for another wrench.

Cam change? Ok before?
Oil line re-routing? Isolating primary? OK before that?
Ignition change, before that?

-Mark

edit to add:  in short, has it ever not ran hot?

[Biker72]

O.K. guys this may be long but will give a good history of what happened.

About 3 years or so ago I was riding the bike stripped down with leather bags 80 ci Dyna S. My wife and I had gone for a ride and running about 60 mph the timken bearing locked up, talk about a pucker moment, we went sliding but I kept it on 2 wheels. I took it to the Indy I had been using for several years and he rebuilt the motor. Something ,beyond my grasp, happened inside the cases and he wanted to get me new cases but I refused because I wanted to keep the originals. He sent the cases out to have them fixed. While the motor was being rebuilt I decided to have them put a cam in it so he put in the Andrews J grind. I also decided I was going back to the stock type crossover exhaust with fishtail extensions. I found the header pipe on Ebay and when I got it it was in pretty bad shape I took it to work and welded it up. Once I got the bike back I dressed it out ie fairing bags etc. and started breaking it in. The bike never really ran right to me but I couldn't really tell as it wasn't broke in. Once I got 500 miles I changed the oil and filter as advised by the builder then again at 1000 miles after that I realized the bike didn't run as well as it had before the Indy I had taken it to was having health problems and was unavailable so I came to the board. That is what Mark is remembering. I never could get it dialed in although it ran it just never ran as good as it had before. I attributed this to the extra weight of the bags etc. Some had told me I would never get the bike dialed in right with the fishtails but I wanted what I wanted. In the meantime my son was born premature and I had to spend alot of time back and forth to the hospital so forth and so on and just didn't have time to worry with the bike I would ride to work here and there(same place I work now) with no heating issues just didn't run right so I would get frustrated and let it sit then I would get a wild hair and tinker a little then ride then when it still wasn't right I'd park it again. I was trying things people were telling me on the board and it didn't work so I finally got fed up and parked it. That brings us to where I am now. I talked to people and checked around and the Indy that I took the bike to is a guy that everyone says is "the man" when it comes to Shovels but a 2 hour ride round trip and $$ later all he did was rejet the carb and set the timing doesn't seem like that takes 3 hours labor for someone who knows what their doing.

I don't have a ton of money(read$500 or more) to spend on someone else trouble shooting on my dime and I really don't have a good place to work on it as far as tearing into the motor or anything. I also don't have the money to buy parts I don't need. I was thinking about going back to drag pipes but that's $200. I would love to upgrade the ignition to a more user friendly unit but I don't have $3-400 just because it's a little better. Believe me guys I am trying everything that is being posted here to the extent of my ability and understanding. I have a great deal of respect for the opinions and suggestions of all here some I have been taking advice from for a long time. I also don't assume anything and I don't take for granted that anything has been done unless I did it and even then I'll double check because I do have senior moments.

So to summarize the bike was a running machine until the crossover exhaust, Fishtail extensions and Andrews cam. The getting hot part was not an issue until I brought it back out it did run like crap which I believe had to do with the timing being off but it never got hot to this degree that I can recall otherwise I would have addressed it then.

I have done the following things
When I first decided to pull it back out.
Drained the fuel tanks put in seafoam with 93 BP fuel
took the carb. apart and soaked it in cleaner reassembled along with a new mixture screw
took out the petcock and cleaned with carb. cleaner
Put Marvel Mystery Oil in the spark plug holes and let soak for a day or so.
Changed the oil and used 20w50 and Marvel mystery oil then changed again to 50W after I realized it was hot.
Changed all oil lines because after riding I had a leak at one of the hoses going to the pump (very minor but thought it may become worse far from home)
Cleaned and gapped plugs.
new brake fluid front and rear

Since the heating started
Adjusted the timing and carb. a dozen times
Checked the advance unit several times
checked the gas cap vent and rode with it off
Cut off the fishtail tips on the extensions so it's just straight pipes
Checked for brake drag, wheel bearings etc.
Opened the oil cap under the seat and verified that oil is coming into the tank at the top
Checked the advance unit
Took it to the Indy and he set the timing "Right" and fattened up the jets he claimed it had a lean surge I agree it runs better after 55 but the .031 int. jet is too much the bike really bogs going up through the gears.
adjusted the clutch
put the washer on the bolts in the pipes (baffles)
The Indy and I both sprayed carb and choke cleaner to check for manifold leaks

The bike runs good no pinging no rattles like I say just the int. jet is too fat.
Guess I just need to take it back to the Indy and tell him to call when it doesn't get hot a hope he don't go over $300 otherwise someone will get it on Ebay.
Later
Duke

[rbonner]

Ya know, I don't know where you live, but it might be worth taking to Hillside or 1320 just to get a guy I would trust...  Even if it was a 500 mile tow.  Then let him list it on eBay for you if the hting doesn't run.

Thats scary that you spun the bearing. wonder if the oiling is working to that bearing?  anyway, this is way the heck out there.  Time for a super pro to have at it.

BOB

[Biker72]

Hey Bob,
I live in NC

[catmcaw]

  NC...... Kendall Johnson comes to mind. I think he is located in Winston Salem.

[Biker72]

Yeah I know about Kendall he is on the West side of the state I am on the Eastern side East of Raleigh but it may get to that.

This morning I pulled the oil filter and loosened all of the pushrods about 1/4 turn or so. I also went through all of the oil lines again to check everything all looked good. I also took out the screen and it had some small bits of metal so I cleaned it really good.

I cranked it up and it sounded good took the vent tube loose beside the oil pump and had a good flow there then took it loose at the tank and had good flow of air there as well looked inside and had a good flow of oil from the return to where it overflowed. Shut it down and put everything back together won't have a chance to ride it until later this evening when the wife comes home from work but will update then.

If this don't work it'll be back to the shop. I just am out of ideas.
Later
Duke

[Biker72]

This is a shot in the dark but I was just looking at a show and they were talking exhaust and combustion etc. Is it at all possible that my exhaust is too small or not flowing enough of the heat out?
Duke

[HotRodShovel]

I think somewhere along the line I recommended that you re adjust you pushrods. Someone also just recently made the same suggestion. Do that. It could also be  the heads or bad valves. There are many more qualified guys here than I, so I am sure you will get plenty of good suggestions about this new approach of exhaust.

Good luck brother. You are due for some good news.

[rbonner]

No Duke, that is not the problem.

[monty101]

from what you said you changed cam. I'd advance the timing and see if that cools it down.  As I said if you put in a diff cam often the timing has to be adjusted. sounds like yours needs to be advanced. I have points but a lot of electronic ignitions still use the advance weights and if the slot is diff just a little it may make a big diff on the timing. Like I said I went through the hot motor episode when i changed cams a while back

[76shuvlinoff]

Doubt it Duke, unless you have a squirrel's nest in those pipes they should not be an issue. If I understand correctly you have stock pipes (with a crossover?) into unbaffled fishtails. You cut the pipes off at the fishtails so essentially you are running long dual crossover drags and you've installed a set of washers to bust up the reversion wave. I did exactly the same thing and ran my flh that way for years.

As a side note I always kicked myself in the ass for cutting those tails off.

[billbuilds]

     72,
     I see where Monty is coming from but that J grind is a pretty mild cam and I can't believe (this is opinion here) that it alone is the cause of your overheating.
    Your bike is a 1972 FLH correct? Stock-wise that would have had a side oiling pinion shaft. It also would have had a side oiling cam cover. Any chance someone used an end oiling pinion shaft with the stock side oiling cam cover or vise versa? Also, please try to find out specificaly why your engine builder wanted to replace your cases. As RBonner alluded to, sounds to me like one or more of the lower end bearings is not getting enough lube. Good luck, Bill