Sumping again....with the NEW Oil pump

[JB2017CVO]

I bought a 2017 CVO Street glide back in Jan or so...I ran it stock for a little while and the damn oil pump went out on it and fried the top end...While they were having to redo the top end I went ahead and put in a stage 4...rode it for a couple thousand miles and then it began to sump...The put another top end in it and it did the same thing...They then put an entirely new motor in and it sumped again...So in August they gave me an entirely new bike...At that time we held off on the stage 4 and just rode it stock...it did fine...I put about 5k on it with no issues...They called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they were ready to install the stage 4 kit again that they were putting the NEW oil pump in it this time...I picked the bike up on Friday and by Sunday it had sumped again...Has anyone else installed the new oil pump and used the new updated SB1450 procedures and still had issues with sumping or am I the only one? Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike...

[hattitude]

Man.... that more than sucks... !

[happyman]

I bought a 2017 CVO Street glide back in Jan or so...I ran it stock for a little while and the damn oil pump went out on it and fried the top end...While they were having to redo the top end I went ahead and put in a stage 4...rode it for a couple thousand miles and then it began to sump...The put another top end in it and it did the same thing...They then put an entirely new motor in and it sumped again...So in August they gave me an entirely new bike...At that time we held off on the stage 4 and just rode it stock...it did fine...I put about 5k on it with no issues...They called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they were ready to install the stage 4 kit again that they were putting the NEW oil pump in it this time...I picked the bike up on Friday and by Sunday it had sumped again...Has anyone else installed the new oil pump and used the new updated SB1450 procedures and still had issues with sumping or am I the only one? Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike...

your not alone!!  yes it has to suck .

[harleytuner]

Did anybody catch the updated M1450 bulletin? Included the 18 models now and doubled the accepted sump amount of oil

[FSG]

M1450A  ........  stby

[1FSTRK]

If your production product does not meet specs, change the specs. After all you are the MOCO
They are becoming the  stock of the industry.

[rbabos]

If your production product does not meet specs, change the specs. After all you are the MOCO
They are becoming the  stock of the industry.

They sure are working at it with sumping and trans oil transfer issues they can't or won't  resolve. Personally, I think they are playing dumb avoiding responsibility and costs.
Ron

[tmwmoose]

How unbelievably pathetic . So Harley never really tested this motor is the way it looks . And all this on one bike ! Sorry OP for your misfortune what a shame .  Remember that famous movie line !, run Forest run!

[Hossamania]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

[Coyote]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

I did a complete service today on my K1600. It's sure sumping when I get on the throttle!

[Hossamania]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

I did a complete service today on my K1600. It's sure sumping when I get on the throttle!

Very good one!

[PoorUB]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

If nothing else I am sure glad I bought my 2016 Limited. I would be pissed to the max if I were having problems like some of these bikes.

HD needs to tweek some more stroke out of the Vrod and slap it in a bagger!

[Reddog74usa]

GEEE I wonder why sales are down For everyone of us that hears what's happening to these new M8's at least 10 are told of it and on and on and on so keep goin Harley you freakin idiots 

[Nastytls]

If your production product does not meet specs, change the specs. After all you are the MOCO
They are becoming the  stock of the industry.

"Becoming"? They always have been. Do you really think the engineers in Germany or especially Japan, are now or ever have taken Harley engineering seriously? They would probably be fired on the spot for producing a product similar to Harley.

That being said, this is a whole new low. Between crank runout and now sumping they're essentially making it so the bike has to totally self destruct before they stand behind it. The scary part of that is they basically want complete engine failure which can be a significant safety issue for the rider. I suppose they'd rather pay out to dead riders families than pay to properly correct their s**t design.

If they didn't have a name to fall back on they might just put in some effort to hiring decent engineers and build a quality bike.

It'd be interesting to see what would happen if these service bulletins that essentially change specs retroactively were made widely known to the buying public.

[tmwmoose]

Becoming"? They always have been. Do you really think the engineers in Germany or especially Japan, are now or ever have taken Harley engineering seriously? They would probably be fired on the spot for producing a product similar to Harley.


Suzuki Intruder, Yamaha Virago, Honda Shadow just to name a few .You don't call that "taken Harley engineering seriously"?
  Today they probably don't care cause there all wondering like Harley where there profits are going to come from in the next 10-15 years

[harleytuner]

Harley plays the odds as far as engineering goes is what it seams.  I have a 2015 CVO Roadglide in right now, 3 months out of warranty with a lifter failure that as a result will require a total R&R on the customers dime.  The average MC rider in the US puts on somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 miles per year (I know some a lot more but that is the average).  So if HD offers a 2 year warranty that is an average of 6,000 - 10,000 miles, so if they double that we'll say they only care about their customers getting 20,000 miles out of their bikes.  For the riders that double the average miles a year there's a good chance they will have a warranty claim, that is if they left their bike stock and have not opened the door for the warranty to be voided.  At the end it all comes down to the MoCo answering to the share holders, they only care about profit. 

[Nastytls]

Suzuki Intruder, Yamaha Virago, Honda Shadow just to name a few .You don't call that "taken Harley engineering seriously"?
  Today they probably don't care cause there all wondering like Harley where there profits are going to come from in the next 10-15 years

Ummm... No. Those bikes were produced because there is demand for cruiser style motorcycles, so the only thing those bikes share in common with HD are that they are indeed V-twin cruisers. Literally nothing else. Any one of those bikes are superior engineering exercises when compared to a Harley and can be run virtually forever without the litany of problems Harley's suffer from.

No company in their right mind would actually "copy" a harley design, and thats not because they fear lawsuits, it's because they rightly fear the windfall of failures that would follow. Harley does it because they truly don't care about quality, they know people will still buy because of the name, nobody else can do that.

[Nastytls]

I sound like I am very anti HD, but I'm not really, I'm anti poor quality that I have to pay a premium for. Stylistically they are hard to beat in the cruiser market ( before Indian came around ). My wife really wants me to get a bagger so she can ride with me but she's not terribly pleased at the amount of money I have spent on "fixing" and improving my Dyna.  I have always liked the looks of the Road Glide so I was truly hoping that the M8 would be different. By most accounts it's more of the same and also worse.

[rbabos]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

If nothing else I am sure glad I bought my 2016 Limited. I would be pissed to the max if I were having problems like some of these bikes.

HD needs to tweek some more stroke out of the Vrod and slap it in a bagger!

How could they keep service departments busy with a engine like that?
Ron

[PoorUB]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

If nothing else I am sure glad I bought my 2016 Limited. I would be pissed to the max if I were having problems like some of these bikes.

HD needs to tweek some more stroke out of the Vrod and slap it in a bagger!

How could they keep service departments busy with a engine like that?
Ron

That would be a problem I could deal with.

Best engine concept HD has ever had and they mothball it and continue to build these air cooled POS.

[IronButt70]

Best engine concept HD has ever had and they mothball it and continue to build these air cooled POS.

As long as people keep buying them that won't change.

[rich1]

The thing I dont get about the sumping issue. Why are bikes ok for a few thousand miles and then start sumping? What changed?

[hogpipes1]

I bought a 2017 CVO Street glide back in Jan or so...I ran it stock for a little while and the damn oil pump went out on it and fried the top end...While they were having to redo the top end I went ahead and put in a stage 4...rode it for a couple thousand miles and then it began to sump...The put another top end in it and it did the same thing...They then put an entirely new motor in and it sumped again...So in August they gave me an entirely new bike...At that time we held off on the stage 4 and just rode it stock...it did fine...I put about 5k on it with no issues...They called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they were ready to install the stage 4 kit again that they were putting the NEW oil pump in it this time...I picked the bike up on Friday and by Sunday it had sumped again...Has anyone else installed the new oil pump and used the new updated SB1450 procedures and still had issues with sumping or am I the only one? Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike...

I am going to make a copy of this . next time dealer ask me when am i going to buy a new bike.? i get tired  telling them all the issues now with the M-8.  use to be the T-Cam,  but they always have the same story, Never heard of that issue.  Well here ya go read this .

[happyman]

I bought a 2017 CVO Street glide back in Jan or so...I ran it stock for a little while and the damn oil pump went out on it and fried the top end...While they were having to redo the top end I went ahead and put in a stage 4...rode it for a couple thousand miles and then it began to sump...The put another top end in it and it did the same thing...They then put an entirely new motor in and it sumped again...So in August they gave me an entirely new bike...At that time we held off on the stage 4 and just rode it stock...it did fine...I put about 5k on it with no issues...They called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they were ready to install the stage 4 kit again that they were putting the NEW oil pump in it this time...I picked the bike up on Friday and by Sunday it had sumped again...Has anyone else installed the new oil pump and used the new updated SB1450 procedures and still had issues with sumping or am I the only one? Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike...

I am going to make a copy of this . next time dealer ask me when am i going to buy a new bike.? i get tired  telling them all the issues now with the M-8.  use to be the T-Cam,  but they always have the same story, Never heard of that issue.  Well here ya go read this .

had one dealer I was mentioning it to them and the owner blew his stack and raised al kinds of hel screaming and raising his voice in from  of several customers saying  I was just calling his product junk. I never did say the word junk but did say some have issues . the dude is known to be not very bright  so I just shrug it off. people were listening to the rant closely.    some dealers claim they had one and they sell a lot of bikes,  some serious lies out there I can say without a doubt. I have had too many issues to mention as its so disgusting as the riding time was cut at least in half this year because of the product.  as matter of fact its in a shop as I type waiting on backorderd parts.

[randyman]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

[harleytuner]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators. 

[harleytuner]

M1450A  ........  stby

No luck?

[les]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators.

I've seen as much as a 25 HP loss due to wet sumping on the dyno sheets.  A specific case was when the oil pump sumping tube o-rings was installed wrong, causing a cut in the o-ring.  The before and after dyno runs showed that the sumping caused around 25 HP loss.  Heat and a dragging ass engine.

[harleytuner]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators.

I've seen as much as a 25 HP loss due to wet sumping on the dyno sheets.  A specific case was when the oil pump sumping tube o-rings was installed wrong, causing a cut in the o-ring.  The before and after dyno runs showed that the sumping caused around 25 HP loss.  Heat and a dragging ass engine.

I've seen it multiple times on my dyno as well.  It's usually pretty obvious. 

[koko3052]

"Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike..."

Maybe they should someone down to ACTUALLY FIX IT!

[harleytuner]

"Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike..."

Maybe they should someone down to ACTUALLY FIX IT!

Good news, if its sumping less than 6 oz (from three CPS hole) there's nothing wrong with it!

[klammer76]

If your production product does not meet specs, change the specs. After all you are the MOCO
They are becoming the  stock of the industry.

They sure are working at it with sumping and trans oil transfer issues they can't or won't  resolve. Personally, I think they are playing dumb avoiding responsibility and costs.
Ron

I don't know what is going on with this Company anymore. I know they have had problems in the past but it just seems there was no adequate testing of the M8 prior to release. It just seems that there is no leadership from the top down. Christ, I read of these problems and it makes me sick that they can't figure them out especially when they are on kits they are offering. It's completely disgusting. To the OP, I feel sorry for all the problems you and others have had. And the dealers just keep saying "haven't heard of any issues" (yes, I have been told that). What a joke.
klammer

[FSG]

they learnt nothing from the TC sumping issues, trying to scavenge the cam chest and the mini sump with the one gerotor, Dan Thayer showed them how to do it, but they took no notice   

[hd06]

 It will bit them sooner or later.

[harleytuner]

I have the updated SB sitting on my desk and I just shake my head at it.  This issue has been going on and they still shipped the 2018's with the 114's with the same shitty oil pump.  And then double the spec on the amount.  That just tells me that the majority of the bikes coming onto the dealers are sumping more than the original 3 oz but less than 6 oz.  So in order to cut warranty repair costs the just raise the spec.  Total BS, it's crank runout all over again. They started out saying trans fluid migration is normal for 5oz in 5,000 miles.  Steve Cole can't go 90 miles on his without having to add trans fluid, after having his bike for the better part of a year they told him to come get it, it's fine and they will be updated the service manuals to say the migration is normal. He refused the pickup and it's all in the lawyers hands at this point.

I love(d) HD, I make make living working on them.  This road that they are taking will be their demise if they stay on it.  This is what happens when you care more about pleasing your shareholders than putting out a good product.

I'm sure the aftermarket will step up to the plate and come up with a fix, then in true HD fashion they'll copy the design. 

[klammer76]

I have the updated SB sitting on my desk and I just shake my head at it.  This issue has been going on and they still shipped the 2018's with the 114's with the same shitty oil pump.  And then double the spec on the amount.  That just tells me that the majority of the bikes coming onto the dealers are sumping more than the original 3 oz but less than 6 oz.  So in order to cut warranty repair costs the just raise the spec.  Total BS, it's crank runout all over again. They started out saying trans fluid migration is normal for 5oz in 5,000 miles.  Steve Cole can't go 90 miles on his without having to add trans fluid, after having his bike for the better part of a year they told him to come get it, it's fine and they will be updated the service manuals to say the migration is normal. He refused the pickup and it's all in the lawyers hands at this point.

I love(d) HD, I make make living working on them.  This road that they are taking will be their demise if they stay on it.  This is what happens when you care more about pleasing your shareholders than putting out a good product.

I'm sure the aftermarket will step up to the plate and come up with a fix, then in true HD fashion they'll copy the design.

I agree. Very sad but also very true.

[rich1]

So why are some sumping and some not? If the oil pump is a faulty design, and it must be for them to be on a 3rd version, why are they not all sumping? Just luck? Difference in tolerances? Alignment?  Or maybe worst case they are all sumping to an extent and the owners are not aware of it.

[rbabos]

So why are some sumping and some not? If the oil pump is a faulty design, and it must be for them to be on a 3rd version, why are they not all sumping? Just luck? Difference in tolerances? Alignment?  Or maybe worst case they are all sumping to an extent and the owners are not aware of it.

Pretty much. We all know HD and tolerance can't be used in the same sentence. If they added the missing pieces needed for this pump design , tolerance would be less of an issue.
Ron

[Hossamania]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

[harleytuner]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

[1FSTRK]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

[harleytuner]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

[1FSTRK]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

I did not say the hole was to small, too big of a hole caused just as much trouble. My point is that it is a balanced system and if you through one thing off it stops working properly.

Are you saying the blow by from the HD big bore was the cause and the new aftermarket cylinders and pistons were the cure?

[rich1]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

Maybe a dumb question. But what about the factory 114's. They have a smaller bore but longer stroke than the add on 114 kits for the 107. Are the factory 114's less prone to sump than the ones with the kits?

[harleytuner]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

I did not say the hole was to small, too big of a hole caused just as much trouble. My point is that it is a balanced system and if you through one thing off it stops working properly.

Are you saying the blow by from the HD big bore was the cause and the new aftermarket cylinders and pistons were the cure?

All I know is I have not had sumping issues on any aftermarket big bore kit i've done, and all the HD 114 kit's i've tuned sumped.  On the one I re-built he came in with a dealer built 114, aftermarket heads, Woods cams, Basanni 2:1 and a Vision.  This was all done at the dealer, just came here for a tune.  During the tune I discovered sumping and trans migration.  Called the customer he came and got the bike, went back to the dealer.  MoCo called No-joy because of the aftermarket parts (that the dealer installed).  Customer got pissed, picked it up, brought it back to me.  I put on a 114 kit and left everything else as is.  Bike did not sump during the break in tune, during his 500 mile break in or during the final tune.  I talked to him a few months later and he said he had 6K on the build with no issues other than the trans fluid.  We were planning on putting in the oil pump when we re-built the top end but they didn't have one in stock so we  just left the existing one in and baby it through the break in.  There wasn't a need so we just left it alone.  For what it's worth the cylinders and pistons we took out were garbage, out of round, on a taper and to big.

[harleytuner]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

Maybe a dumb question. But what about the factory 114's. They have a smaller bore but longer stroke than the add on 114 kits for the 107. Are the factory 114's less prone to sump than the ones with the kits?

I have had 2 114 CVO's in for tunes and they both sumped.  I have yet to do a M* Softail so I can't comment other than to say that they are included in the updated M-1450 service bulletin.

[1FSTRK]

 

[rbabos]

Without serious examination of the pump, my gut feeling is an interaction between the feed side and the scavenge side. If clearances are minimal it will function although not likely to the designed ratio between the two rotors. Throw in some slop this interaction could make it to the point the scavenge side gets overwhelmed. Maybe they should ask Porsche how to do it right. While at it the trans too. This whole thing is becoming a joke.
Ron

[lucasg]

 

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

Priceless absolutely beautiful , especially the " app on their phones "... Hehehehe

[yobtaf103]

Guess all those pre production motors they ran up  dyno testing where blue printed

[tmwmoose]

So it looks like the AMF years will no longer be considered the  years of Harley 

[Reddog74usa]

Been that way for a while now 

[Hossamania]

So it looks like the AMF years will no longer be considered the  years of Harley

They are now considered "classic" years....

[JB2017CVO]

Well....all I can say is I supposedly had the latest and greatest oil pump installed in my 2017 CVO stage 4 about 2 weeks ago and once again it sumped...Not sure they have a clue as to what is really going on...Harley engineer is coming down again next week to tear down the motor in my bike with the tech and see if they can find an issue...If I hear anything I will be sure to keep yall informed...

[WhipLash96]

I bought a 2017 CVO Street glide back in Jan or so...I ran it stock for a little while and the damn oil pump went out on it and fried the top end...While they were having to redo the top end I went ahead and put in a stage 4...rode it for a couple thousand miles and then it began to sump...The put another top end in it and it did the same thing...They then put an entirely new motor in and it sumped again...So in August they gave me an entirely new bike...At that time we held off on the stage 4 and just rode it stock...it did fine...I put about 5k on it with no issues...They called me a couple of weeks ago and said that they were ready to install the stage 4 kit again that they were putting the NEW oil pump in it this time...I picked the bike up on Friday and by Sunday it had sumped again...Has anyone else installed the new oil pump and used the new updated SB1450 procedures and still had issues with sumping or am I the only one? Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike...

I am going to make a copy of this . next time dealer ask me when am i going to buy a new bike.? i get tired  telling them all the issues now with the M-8.  use to be the T-Cam,  but they always have the same story, Never heard of that issue.  Well here ya go read this .

I had a friend that did just this today. LMAO

[Thermodyne]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

If nothing else I am sure glad I bought my 2016 Limited. I would be pissed to the max if I were having problems like some of these bikes.

HD needs to tweek some more stroke out of the Vrod and slap it in a bagger!

They might do something like that, if forced.  But it would prolly be a NOVA type V4 built from parts and tooling that would share with the 750 Street.  That would give them a 1500cc wet motor.  Easy enough to match current power levels with no stress issues.   

[1FSTRK]

BMW is gaining more appeal....

If nothing else I am sure glad I bought my 2016 Limited. I would be pissed to the max if I were having problems like some of these bikes.

HD needs to tweek some more stroke out of the Vrod and slap it in a bagger!

They might do something like that, if forced.  But it would prolly be a NOVA type V4 built from parts and tooling that would share with the 750 Street.  That would give them a 1500cc wet motor.  Easy enough to match current power levels with no stress issues.   

There were pictures of it posted here on HTT but HD got them removed.

[eddfive]

Ed...so the HD tech guy was down here for the past 2 days checking out my bike. He said they can't find anything wrong with any parts or the installation. He did get it to sump, but he had to ride it at high rpms. For a sustained amount of time. He said that I ride to aggressive and that I needed to change my riding style...The only thing HD is offering is to either put the bike back together as a stg 4 and me not ride so aggressive..or...give me my money back on the stg 4 kit and put it back as stock

Not sure that John will respond but I thought we should share. This Harley tech from the MOCO is now telling us how to ride and that we can not ride a Milwaukee 8 at high RPM or aggressively. He also told John that at sustained high RPM the motor gets too hot causing oil pump issues. I thought the hole reason for the M8 was too run cooler. I am not sure what John plans to do, but I can not believe they are going to tell him or any Harley owner how to ride their bike. This is total BS in my opinion. Sounds like they do not have the answer yet for the sumping issue.

I am hoping the aftermarket(Feuling) gets their pump and cam plate released to eliminate this problem.

My take on all this is Harley is clueless on the oil pump/camplate issue. This guy form Harley was sent down to basically do nothing and tell John he is out of luck.

[Coyote]

Unbelievable.   

[Ohio HD]

I've been following this, as I'm sure many are. I'm astounded that they take this attitude towards a problem they can't deny. I guess all I can say is, I'm in NO rush to pick up an M8.

[harley_cruiser]

Wow, it's your fault that it's sumping, unbelievable.

[crewchief25H]

Heard today the 62400178 pumps after 10/10/17 are machined different. Have a friend that works at a HD dealer, he had one in his hand today. Guess this make the 4th generation oil pump for oil cooled.

[happyman]

Ed...so the HD tech guy was down here for the past 2 days checking out my bike. He said they can't find anything wrong with any parts or the installation. He did get it to sump, but he had to ride it at high rpms. For a sustained amount of time. He said that I ride to aggressive and that I needed to change my riding style...The only thing HD is offering is to either put the bike back together as a stg 4 and me not ride so aggressive..or...give me my money back on the stg 4 kit and put it back as stock

Not sure that John will respond but I thought we should share. This Harley tech from the MOCO is now telling us how to ride and that we can not ride a Milwaukee 8 at high RPM or aggressively. He also told John that at sustained high RPM the motor gets too hot causing oil pump issues. I thought the hole reason for the M8 was too run cooler. I am not sure what John plans to do, but I can not believe they are going to tell him or any Harley owner how to ride their bike. This is total BS in my opinion. Sounds like they do not have the answer yet for the sumping issue.

I am hoping the aftermarket(Feuling) gets their pump and cam plate released to eliminate this problem.

My take on all this is Harley is clueless on the oil pump/camplate issue. This guy form Harley was sent down to basically do nothing and tell John he is out of luck.

Holy batchit, was riding my 117, 17   CVO today. was 52* and wind.  oil temp was at 218 and my motor was sumping like a big dog got  real hot exhaust temps on the right foot and leg , and would not run for chit.  pulled it off the road into a gas station  and oil was right at a quarter inch below the add mark.  now I checked it before
I left which I always do an doil has just been changed and it is at three dots down  on stone cold motor so we know there is lot more to the sumping issue than obviously anyone cares to admit even if they have no clue what it is that is soooooooo wrong  I have to think even the dang breathing of these motors is not doing what it needs  lot of  overrun on last there motors and other top ends replaced all the same ole bs   just the same song and dance. its the latest, and  greatest, and should work. well should and would are two different deals.  have had it to the teeth with this mess, that is ongoing despite what is being done so far.  to tjhink  the advertising on these kits states it for performance everywhere  and some for low or topend and mid, so the advertising is a failry tale and they got the  $$$ and now want to break it off in ya .   and we thought  AMNF was a clown show? 

[Ohio HD]

Wow, this is really a bad deal, getting worse. I know that all of them can't be effected, can't be. But they don't know why some are no doubt.

[PoorUB]

I wonder how some people that really can not afford a new M8 and borrow a bunch of money, then end up with a sumper. I know I buy a new ride every few years and it is a extreme major purchase for me. If I had a $28,000 motorcycle I couldn't ride I would be a bit pissed to say the least. I would probably use up my vacation time to camp out in front of the dealer with my ride and a nasty "HD sold me a lemon" sign. It wouldn't be pretty.

A lot of this is why I am getting a bit worn out on HD. They built the first Twin Cam in '99, then spent the next 7 or so years getting them straightened out, cam bearings, tensioners. I am pretty happy with my 2016 after I did the exhaust and tune. Now the bike runs like it should from the factory. I think I will give them five more years before I buy a M8!

[happyman]

I wonder how some people that really can not afford a new M8 and borrow a bunch of money, then end up with a sumper. I know I buy a new ride every few years and it is a extreme major purchase for me. If I had a $28,000 motorcycle I couldn't ride I would be a bit pissed to say the least. I would probably use up my vacation time to camp out in front of the dealer with my ride and a nasty "HD sold me a lemon" sign. It wouldn't be pretty.

A lot of this is why I am getting a bit worn out on HD. They built the first Twin Cam in '99, then spent the next 7 or so years getting them straightened out, cam bearings, tensioners. I am pretty happy with my 2016 after I did the exhaust and tune. Now the bike runs like it should from the factory. I think I will give them five more years before I buy a M8!

the CVO  17 model is or was just close to 40 grand now they are plus 40 grand and it does hurt to write the check.  then you miss half the  season because of failures it tends to make you unhappy to put it mildly.
 

[Jim Bronson]

Yikes! My buds and I met up at the local dealer this morning for a pre-ride chat. The SM is a really nice guy, and his crew installed a Tire Shredder in my '15 RK a while back, and it runs great with lots of power, especially after a Dyno tune. He was hinting that I may want to buy an M8 for more power, and I didn't want to say anything because my riding buddy/good friend was there. He bought a '17 RK and is having pretty good luck with it so far with about 10K on it. Sometime when I get the SM alone, I will mention the sumping problem and see what he has to say.

[harleytuner]

I would probably use up my vacation time to camp out in front of the dealer with my ride and a nasty "HD sold me a lemon" sign. It wouldn't be pretty.

A guy I used to work with bought a real high end horse trailer, the kind with living quarters in it, for his wife. He had nothing but problems with that thing.  The manufacturer (Cherokee trailers) wouldn't work with him.  He ended up renting a lot at the Ohio State Fair right across from the Cherokee display, he parked his trailer there and put up a banner down the whole side of it that said "Cherokee trailers are junk, ask me why" and spent the week showing people all the problems he had.

[Thermodyne]

Ed...so the HD tech guy was down here for the past 2 days checking out my bike. He said they can't find anything wrong with any parts or the installation. He did get it to sump, but he had to ride it at high rpms. For a sustained amount of time. He said that I ride to aggressive and that I needed to change my riding style...The only thing HD is offering is to either put the bike back together as a stg 4 and me not ride so aggressive..or...give me my money back on the stg 4 kit and put it back as stock

Not sure that John will respond but I thought we should share. This Harley tech from the MOCO is now telling us how to ride and that we can not ride a Milwaukee 8 at high RPM or aggressively. He also told John that at sustained high RPM the motor gets too hot causing oil pump issues. I thought the hole reason for the M8 was too run cooler. I am not sure what John plans to do, but I can not believe they are going to tell him or any Harley owner how to ride their bike. This is total BS in my opinion. Sounds like they do not have the answer yet for the sumping issue.

I am hoping the aftermarket(Feuling) gets their pump and cam plate released to eliminate this problem.

My take on all this is Harley is clueless on the oil pump/camplate issue. This guy form Harley was sent down to basically do nothing and tell John he is out of luck.

I think the MoCo knows what the issue is.  They were hoping to correct it as cheaply as possible.  And it would appear that has not panned out for them. 

I would get a lawyer and let them put what they told you in writing.  Then demand my money back. 

If they fix this issue with a more extensive redesign, the early M8 scooters will be worth less than the Twinkies they replaced. 

[JB2017CVO]

OK all...here is the final word from Harley Davidson....They had their guy come down here to Texas from Wisconsin to tear my bike down and check everything...The word I got from him personally was that all the parts were working just fine and that the installation itself was done correctly...He could only get it to sump when he rode it at high rpms for a sustained amount of time. What that consists of I have no idea...I can make it sump within a mile or so at high rpms...Anyways, he said that since they had put the new oil pumps in, I am the only one that has had the issue continue, so it must be me...I ride to aggressive for their liking. The bike was not designed to run at high rpms for a sustained period of time...once again...whatever that means....What Harley has agreed to do is refund me the price and labor costs of a stage 4 kit and I get to keep the kit...At this point my only hope is that FUELING or someone else comes out with an oil pump and cam plate that fixes the problem...

[happyman]

OK all...here is the final word from Harley Davidson....They had their guy come down here to Texas from Wisconsin to tear my bike down and check everything...The word I got from him personally was that all the parts were working just fine and that the installation itself was done correctly...He could only get it to sump when he rode it at high rpms for a sustained amount of time. What that consists of I have no idea...I can make it sump within a mile or so at high rpms...Anyways, he said that since they had put the new oil pumps in, I am the only one that has had the issue continue, so it must be me...I ride to aggressive for their liking. The bike was not designed to run at high rpms for a sustained period of time...once again...whatever that means....What Harley has agreed to do is refund me the price and labor costs of a stage 4 kit and I get to keep the kit...At this point my only hope is that FUELING or someone else comes out with an oil pump and cam plate that fixes the problem...

the m8 motors will sump with the cruise set at 70 mph.  I know because its happed on several occasions on three  different motors. after all this  plus a complete top, end with plate and pump.   rockers and supports  shafts and  more.it will fool you  to be honest.   now toss in two broken cam bolts on top of all the previous mentioned  and bent pushrod and lifters junk you get a bit sick and tired.  today  was riding what is one of the last rides this season the way it looks here.    pulled into a gas station fueled up  fired it up and took off into the heavy traffic which is 45 limit and going slow because of traffic that time of day  eased into it  shifted a couple times traffic started rolling a little faster hit third and gave it a little throttle  it  did not respond so gave it more gas and it  was very slow to get going and shifted again at prolly just short of 4 grand its was a  dog that could not run  for whatever reason.  its amazing as it happens  a few times a day and yes if you ride it like its intended to be ridded with the stage  4 advertised how great it is  to run at the front of the pack which means not much to me at my age  its a freaking joke.  I ride a lone and have for many years  no racing  or burnouts.  will spool it in high gear often passing and it cannot handle that , and for the most part the rpm is nothing that ever should shut a motor down not ever     all I want now is all the  $$$ I have invested . when they resolve the issues I will then get a new one if its a sure bet it can be ridden like advertised . and yes its advertised  to  be much more that what I have experienced,   as is with many  there is a lot of homework that needs to be done, gave away over half of the riding season because of failures. and headed back again. yes  the parts get replaced,  and motors  but its getting old  with no resolve to date.  hope they get this figured out begore next summer ad it would be fun to actually take a trip and feel like you can get back.    its  been a hell of a nightmare   have to say we can get the parts to replace but you loose most of a season because of back orders and  waiting for a tech to show up/  nothing good about any of this  BS.
 

[Hossamania]

Get that conclusion in writing. Make 100 copies. Make sure the owner of the dealership gets one. Make sure Harley corporate gets one. Ask the owner of the dealership if you can give one to every customer that walks in. If not, why not? Make sure every dealer in the area gets one. Post it on Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, and whatever other venue that seems right.
If it is an acceptable conclusion, Harley should have no problem with that information being shared with the world.

[Hossamania]

And sell that bike.

[IronButt70]

This whole fiasco leaves me speechless. I'm so glad I bought a 17 heritage instead of waiting for the 18. 

[N-gin]

Get that conclusion in writing. Make 100 copies. Make sure the owner of the dealership gets one. Make sure Harley corporate gets one. Ask the owner of the dealership if you can give one to every customer that walks in. If not, why not? Make sure every dealer in the area gets one. Post it on Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, and whatever other venue that seems right.
If it is an acceptable conclusion, Harley should have no problem with that information being shared with the world.

[metaliser]

And this is the reason the 2014's thru the 2016 models are selling like hot-cakes right now. I seriously want a new bike but no way in heck I'd buy one of these M8's right now and there's no fixes in sight for several issue's.

[PC_Hater]

OK all...here is the final word from Harley Davidson....They had their guy come down here to Texas from Wisconsin to tear my bike down and check everything...The word I got from him personally was that all the parts were working just fine and that the installation itself was done correctly...He could only get it to sump when he rode it at high rpms for a sustained amount of time. What that consists of I have no idea...I can make it sump within a mile or so at high rpms...Anyways, he said that since they had put the new oil pumps in, I am the only one that has had the issue continue, so it must be me...I ride to aggressive for their liking. The bike was not designed to run at high rpms for a sustained period of time...once again...whatever that means....What Harley has agreed to do is refund me the price and labor costs of a stage 4 kit and I get to keep the kit...At this point my only hope is that FUELING or someone else comes out with an oil pump and cam plate that fixes the problem...

American consumer law is different to the UK, but doesn't that mean the bike is not fit for purpose and you can get your money back?

If high rpm running is the cause of the problem then an M8 would be no use to me - Germany and the Autobahn is only a couple of hundred miles by road and a ferry crossing from my house. I cruise my TC99 at 90 to 95mph for long distances, it sounds like I wouldn't be able to do that on an M8.

[happyman]

OK all...here is the final word from Harley Davidson....They had their guy come down here to Texas from Wisconsin to tear my bike down and check everything...The word I got from him personally was that all the parts were working just fine and that the installation itself was done correctly...He could only get it to sump when he rode it at high rpms for a sustained amount of time. What that consists of I have no idea...I can make it sump within a mile or so at high rpms...Anyways, he said that since they had put the new oil pumps in, I am the only one that has had the issue continue, so it must be me...I ride to aggressive for their liking. The bike was not designed to run at high rpms for a sustained period of time...once again...whatever that means....What Harley has agreed to do is refund me the price and labor costs of a stage 4 kit and I get to keep the kit...At this point my only hope is that FUELING or someone else comes out with an oil pump and cam plate that fixes the problem...

American consumer law is different to the UK, but doesn't that mean the bike is not fit for purpose and you can get your money back?

If high rpm running is the cause of the problem then an M8 would be no use to me - Germany and the Autobahn is only a couple of hundred miles by road and a ferry crossing from my house. I cruise my TC99 at 90 to 95mph for long distances, it sounds like I wouldn't be able to do that on an M8.

you may need a chase truck with trailer!  not joking, the possibility is real.  unfortunately.

[rbabos]

OK all...here is the final word from Harley Davidson....They had their guy come down here to Texas from Wisconsin to tear my bike down and check everything...The word I got from him personally was that all the parts were working just fine and that the installation itself was done correctly...He could only get it to sump when he rode it at high rpms for a sustained amount of time. What that consists of I have no idea...I can make it sump within a mile or so at high rpms...Anyways, he said that since they had put the new oil pumps in, I am the only one that has had the issue continue, so it must be me...I ride to aggressive for their liking. The bike was not designed to run at high rpms for a sustained period of time...once again...whatever that means....What Harley has agreed to do is refund me the price and labor costs of a stage 4 kit and I get to keep the kit...At this point my only hope is that FUELING or someone else comes out with an oil pump and cam plate that fixes the problem...

I think if he told me that, my comment would have been wtf is it good for then? That alone is reason to not buy one. Not saying we all need to be going wfo all the time but it should at least be capable of it since it often will get used as a high speed cruiser on extended runs.
Ron

[fbn ent]

What are "high RPMs" in their opinion I wonder? What a mess!