Sumping again....with the NEW Oil pump

[harleytuner]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators. 

[harleytuner]

M1450A  ........  stby

No luck?

[les]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators.

I've seen as much as a 25 HP loss due to wet sumping on the dyno sheets.  A specific case was when the oil pump sumping tube o-rings was installed wrong, causing a cut in the o-ring.  The before and after dyno runs showed that the sumping caused around 25 HP loss.  Heat and a dragging ass engine.

[harleytuner]

What are the symptoms of sumping?  I have 4000 miles on mine.

Excessive heat and loss of power (engine laboring to spool up)  are the main indicators.

I've seen as much as a 25 HP loss due to wet sumping on the dyno sheets.  A specific case was when the oil pump sumping tube o-rings was installed wrong, causing a cut in the o-ring.  The before and after dyno runs showed that the sumping caused around 25 HP loss.  Heat and a dragging ass engine.

I've seen it multiple times on my dyno as well.  It's usually pretty obvious. 

[koko3052]

"Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike..."

Maybe they should someone down to ACTUALLY FIX IT!

[harleytuner]

"Harley is sending down one of their engineers AGAIN to look at my bike..."

Maybe they should someone down to ACTUALLY FIX IT!

Good news, if its sumping less than 6 oz (from three CPS hole) there's nothing wrong with it!

[klammer76]

If your production product does not meet specs, change the specs. After all you are the MOCO
They are becoming the  stock of the industry.

They sure are working at it with sumping and trans oil transfer issues they can't or won't  resolve. Personally, I think they are playing dumb avoiding responsibility and costs.
Ron

I don't know what is going on with this Company anymore. I know they have had problems in the past but it just seems there was no adequate testing of the M8 prior to release. It just seems that there is no leadership from the top down. Christ, I read of these problems and it makes me sick that they can't figure them out especially when they are on kits they are offering. It's completely disgusting. To the OP, I feel sorry for all the problems you and others have had. And the dealers just keep saying "haven't heard of any issues" (yes, I have been told that). What a joke.
klammer

[FSG]

they learnt nothing from the TC sumping issues, trying to scavenge the cam chest and the mini sump with the one gerotor, Dan Thayer showed them how to do it, but they took no notice   

[hd06]

 It will bit them sooner or later.

[harleytuner]

I have the updated SB sitting on my desk and I just shake my head at it.  This issue has been going on and they still shipped the 2018's with the 114's with the same shitty oil pump.  And then double the spec on the amount.  That just tells me that the majority of the bikes coming onto the dealers are sumping more than the original 3 oz but less than 6 oz.  So in order to cut warranty repair costs the just raise the spec.  Total BS, it's crank runout all over again. They started out saying trans fluid migration is normal for 5oz in 5,000 miles.  Steve Cole can't go 90 miles on his without having to add trans fluid, after having his bike for the better part of a year they told him to come get it, it's fine and they will be updated the service manuals to say the migration is normal. He refused the pickup and it's all in the lawyers hands at this point.

I love(d) HD, I make make living working on them.  This road that they are taking will be their demise if they stay on it.  This is what happens when you care more about pleasing your shareholders than putting out a good product.

I'm sure the aftermarket will step up to the plate and come up with a fix, then in true HD fashion they'll copy the design. 

[klammer76]

I have the updated SB sitting on my desk and I just shake my head at it.  This issue has been going on and they still shipped the 2018's with the 114's with the same shitty oil pump.  And then double the spec on the amount.  That just tells me that the majority of the bikes coming onto the dealers are sumping more than the original 3 oz but less than 6 oz.  So in order to cut warranty repair costs the just raise the spec.  Total BS, it's crank runout all over again. They started out saying trans fluid migration is normal for 5oz in 5,000 miles.  Steve Cole can't go 90 miles on his without having to add trans fluid, after having his bike for the better part of a year they told him to come get it, it's fine and they will be updated the service manuals to say the migration is normal. He refused the pickup and it's all in the lawyers hands at this point.

I love(d) HD, I make make living working on them.  This road that they are taking will be their demise if they stay on it.  This is what happens when you care more about pleasing your shareholders than putting out a good product.

I'm sure the aftermarket will step up to the plate and come up with a fix, then in true HD fashion they'll copy the design.

I agree. Very sad but also very true.

[rich1]

So why are some sumping and some not? If the oil pump is a faulty design, and it must be for them to be on a 3rd version, why are they not all sumping? Just luck? Difference in tolerances? Alignment?  Or maybe worst case they are all sumping to an extent and the owners are not aware of it.

[rbabos]

So why are some sumping and some not? If the oil pump is a faulty design, and it must be for them to be on a 3rd version, why are they not all sumping? Just luck? Difference in tolerances? Alignment?  Or maybe worst case they are all sumping to an extent and the owners are not aware of it.

Pretty much. We all know HD and tolerance can't be used in the same sentence. If they added the missing pieces needed for this pump design , tolerance would be less of an issue.
Ron

[Hossamania]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

[harleytuner]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

[1FSTRK]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

[harleytuner]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

[1FSTRK]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

I did not say the hole was to small, too big of a hole caused just as much trouble. My point is that it is a balanced system and if you through one thing off it stops working properly.

Are you saying the blow by from the HD big bore was the cause and the new aftermarket cylinders and pistons were the cure?

[rich1]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

Maybe a dumb question. But what about the factory 114's. They have a smaller bore but longer stroke than the add on 114 kits for the 107. Are the factory 114's less prone to sump than the ones with the kits?

[harleytuner]

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

I don't know as i'm buying into the return hole being to small.  I think their updated oilpump is a bandaid on a larger issue.  Only reason I say this is I personally haven't seen any sumping issues with stock oil pump on big bore kits other than factory HD kits.  I've tested a few without issue.  I had one in with a HD 114" kit that sumped, HD didn't cover it as he had a tuner and a bunch of atfermarket stuff (headwork, Wood's cams, Bassani exhaust AC etc.) the only thing HD on it was the 114" kit.  Since it was his dime and his cylinders and pistons were scored and he opted to replace the 114" kit with an aftermarket one and it didn't sump.  We never even went into the cam chest.  Last I heard from him he was 6k miles and no issues (other than trans fluid migration).

I did not say the hole was to small, too big of a hole caused just as much trouble. My point is that it is a balanced system and if you through one thing off it stops working properly.

Are you saying the blow by from the HD big bore was the cause and the new aftermarket cylinders and pistons were the cure?

All I know is I have not had sumping issues on any aftermarket big bore kit i've done, and all the HD 114 kit's i've tuned sumped.  On the one I re-built he came in with a dealer built 114, aftermarket heads, Woods cams, Basanni 2:1 and a Vision.  This was all done at the dealer, just came here for a tune.  During the tune I discovered sumping and trans migration.  Called the customer he came and got the bike, went back to the dealer.  MoCo called No-joy because of the aftermarket parts (that the dealer installed).  Customer got pissed, picked it up, brought it back to me.  I put on a 114 kit and left everything else as is.  Bike did not sump during the break in tune, during his 500 mile break in or during the final tune.  I talked to him a few months later and he said he had 6K on the build with no issues other than the trans fluid.  We were planning on putting in the oil pump when we re-built the top end but they didn't have one in stock so we  just left the existing one in and baby it through the break in.  There wasn't a need so we just left it alone.  For what it's worth the cylinders and pistons we took out were garbage, out of round, on a taper and to big.

[harleytuner]

Are a lot of them sumping, but people don't realize it? Most don't run over 3000 rpm's, and certainly not to the limiter. They might be sumping but think it's just normal operation because they don't know any better.

I think that's the case Hoss.  It's really prevalent in the 114's, i've seen it on every HD 114 kit i've tuned and trans fluid migration as well on every M8 period so far.  That's 14 M* touring bikes to date, 5 of them with 114" kits.

Maybe a dumb question. But what about the factory 114's. They have a smaller bore but longer stroke than the add on 114 kits for the 107. Are the factory 114's less prone to sump than the ones with the kits?

I have had 2 114 CVO's in for tunes and they both sumped.  I have yet to do a M* Softail so I can't comment other than to say that they are included in the updated M-1450 service bulletin.

[1FSTRK]

 

[rbabos]

Without serious examination of the pump, my gut feeling is an interaction between the feed side and the scavenge side. If clearances are minimal it will function although not likely to the designed ratio between the two rotors. Throw in some slop this interaction could make it to the point the scavenge side gets overwhelmed. Maybe they should ask Porsche how to do it right. While at it the trans too. This whole thing is becoming a joke.
Ron

[lucasg]

 

I doubt any of the engineers that are at HD now were around 20 years ago when this same sumping problem held up the release of the Twin cam engines. You would think someone could have left a cheat sheet for the next group. The ratio between the oil delivered to the bottom end and the diameter of the return hole in the flywheel compartment was found through testing on the road and on the dyno. With no app on their phones and no sumping simulator program taught in college or available to buy it is hard for them to improve on a design when they do not truly understand how it works.

Priceless absolutely beautiful , especially the " app on their phones "... Hehehehe

[yobtaf103]

Guess all those pre production motors they ran up  dyno testing where blue printed