160+?

[08flstf]

Ok, mainly for discussion, but interested if it's feasible. How hard is it to get 160+ hp out of a 124? I know it's asking a lot but wondering if it can be done and still be rideable and not just bar hopper or track bike. I have a 124 now that makes 137 and as much fun as it is, I'm a little bored. It's a Drago's crate motor that has done everything it was supposed to do and more. Have 8000 trouble free miles on it so far. Ride it locally and rode it from Texas to Daytona and back. Just wondering if you can get that much power out of one how "user friendly" it would be.

[C-Cat]

Good heads and the parts to match is the hard way. Find a friendly dyno is an easier alternative!

[rigidthumper]

Super easy. Never cheap.  Add a ProCharger

[Templer]

If 137 after 8000 miles is "boreing" then the only solution is a Pro Charged/Turbo Drago 143? You would also need to hit a LARGE LOTTO wins for the tickets!!!

[rbabos]

Keep it as is and get another bike that will scare you. Motus, maybe.
Ron

[Matt C]

Easy. All it takes is money. Trask turbo will do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htHGYGN9ZLM

[FLDavetrain]

What and where is the peak torque ??

[Ohio HD]

Or, get the mix of parts that work. Brandon hit a home run here.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98188.0

[Matt C]

What and where is the peak torque ??

There's lots of charts out there Google it. Boosted engines produce enormous amounts of TQ. Right
off idle to redline.

[08flstf]

I know a pro charger or turbo could do that and more but I was thinking naturally aspirated. I know it's asking a lot but I've heard it can be done, but I know most of you here are more knowledgeable than me. Was hoping if it could be done it wouldn't have to 12/1 comp or higher. I've done the two bike thing before but it just doesn't seem worth paying insurance on two bikes when I can only ride one at a time. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Ohio HD]

Really good heads, as you know, more compression, and you should have a top notch exhaust like Burns. There are examples in the dyno section, S&S 640 cams seem capable as long as the heads TB and exhaust support the goal. I'd ask Brandon how his is as far as manors, I bet it's not bad at all.

[No Cents]

  you use the words "user friendly" and 160+ horsepower together.
That's not the easiest thing to do with a naturally aspirated twin cam unless your willing to spend some serious cash. It can be done though.
  I fall short of having a 160 hp by a couple of horsepower with my 124" set at 11.17:1 compression. Driving manners on my bike are excellent. I wouldn't hesitate making that back and forth trip from Texas to Daytona.
  The thing is when you get a 160+ horsepower engine your going to need to upgrade a lot of other things on the bike so everything else plays well together.  That kind of power will test everything else. But once you get all the weak links worked out...you can't help but smile every time you ride it.

[FXDBI]

I know a pro charger or turbo could do that and more but I was thinking naturally aspirated. I know it's asking a lot but I've heard it can be done, but I know most of you here are more knowledgeable than me. Was hoping if it could be done it wouldn't have to 12/1 comp or higher. I've done the two bike thing before but it just doesn't seem worth paying insurance on two bikes when I can only ride one at a time. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Put a 143 in it..Nothing money cant fix.   Bob

[Matt C]

You could do it with a low compression turbo 103. It would be super mild mannered (until you wailed on it).
The only things you'd need inside the engine would be a bullet proof crank and blower pistons (8.5-9:1).

Would run on pump gas all day long and live a long happy life if you didn't abuse it. + The sound of a turbo is
just plain intimidating. There wouldn't be much that could keep up with you.

[turboprop]

Ok, mainly for discussion, but interested if it's feasible. How hard is it to get 160+ hp out of a 124? I know it's asking a lot but wondering if it can be done and still be rideable and not just bar hopper or track bike. I have a 124 now that makes 137 and as much fun as it is, I'm a little bored. It's a Drago's crate motor that has done everything it was supposed to do and more. Have 8000 trouble free miles on it so far. Ride it locally and rode it from Texas to Daytona and back. Just wondering if you can get that much power out of one how "user friendly" it would be.

My TC 124 put down 152 HP on a break in tune with a full can, AC, carburetor and a severely bent transmission main shaft and it did it before 6,200 rpm. 160hp is easily within reach. In its current state (11.9 compression, S&S 640 cams), it starts easy and has very good manners, even in extended, slow moving traffic. Dyno sheet is on file. Having a throttle body instead of a carb would have made it much easier.

[08flstf]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm at 10.8/1 right now with 640's and a 58mm throttle body and 5.8 injectors with a Dragula 1 with the 2.55 baffle. Was thinking going as far as 11.5/1, going with an HPI 64mm throttle body, keeping the 640's, porting the heads, and have the 3.0 baffle if needed.

[Tireman]

Your plans to bump compression and keep the 640s look very similar to my build. The tuner set the limiter @ 5800 because I do more touring than bar hoppin. It's not 160+ but it was still pulling @ 5800 and I  was told they will pull to 64-6500. I only have the 55/58 tb too. I have close to 20k trouble free miles so far on it. Good  luck keep us posted.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=90369.0

[1workinman]

Your plans to bump compression and keep the 640s look very similar to my build. The tuner set the limiter @ 5800 because I do more touring than bar hoppin. It's not 160+ but it was still pulling @ 5800 and I  was told they will pull to 64-6500. I only have the 55/58 tb too. I have close to 20k trouble free miles so far on it. Good  luck keep us posted.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=90369.0

Ron your probably will do a 160 hp with the rev limit re set or very close but I not sure what the point is . Your combination is very good,  heads that make horse power.  Really nice build

[TorQuePimp]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm at 10.8/1 right now with 640's and a 58mm throttle body and 5.8 injectors with a Dragula 1 with the 2.55 baffle. Was thinking going as far as 11.5/1, going with an HPI 64mm throttle body, keeping the 640's, porting the heads, and have the 3.0 baffle if needed.

S&S heads ?

[jam65]

A B2 headed and prepped by Baisley 124 with a S&S 675 cam on 1.725 rockers and a compression of 12:1 should do it...... I hope.

[pwmorris]

A B2 headed and prepped by Baisley 124 with a S&S 675 cam on 1.725 rockers and a compression of 12:1 should do it...... I hope.

Rode my Baisley prepped 124" for three years on the street and track (why not?).
I over revved it (my fault), and blew it up on the track. My only bike, and it was a true pump gas dual threat.
BTW, 178/154.

Current street bike is a 126" @ 170+/150 and for three years (less comp and cam), currently with SA Racing Heads and does the job, day in/day out with no issues-and I ride this sucker all over SoCal.

OP, you getting Holiday fever? Bored riding your bike?
Ever taken it to the track to see what you really have?
Get off the laminated Dyno number fixation.....or get a 143" as said, and call it a day.
No free lunch-my motors cost about as much as a 143 (heads as much as some guys motors, and I use only the best),  and that big brute 143 does it easier, at lower comp and cam, and without breaking a sweat....

[08flstf]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm at 10.8/1 right now with 640's and a 58mm throttle body and 5.8 injectors with a Dragula 1 with the 2.55 baffle. Was thinking going as far as 11.5/1, going with an HPI 64mm throttle body, keeping the 640's, porting the heads, and have the 3.0 baffle if needed.

S&S heads ?

Yes S&S super stock heads.

[08flstf]

A B2 headed and prepped by Baisley 124 with a S&S 675 cam on 1.725 rockers and a compression of 12:1 should do it...... I hope.

Rode my Baisley prepped 124" for three years on the street and track (why not?).
I over revved it (my fault), and blew it up on the track. My only bike, and it was a true pump gas dual threat.
BTW, 178/154.

Current street bike is a 126" @ 170+/150 and for three years (less comp and cam), currently with SA Racing Heads and does the job, day in/day out with no issues-and I ride this sucker all over SoCal.

OP, you getting Holiday fever? Bored riding your bike?
Ever taken it to the track to see what you really have?
Get off the laminated Dyno number fixation.....or get a 143" as said, and call it a day.
No free lunch-my motors cost about as much as a 143 (heads as much as some guys motors, and I use only the best),  and that big brute 143 does it easier, at lower comp and cam, and without breaking a sweat....

Haha, I guess I'm getting some kind of fever. Never taken this one to the track. Took my fatboy I used to have a couple times, that was fun. Will take this one eventually, probably after I swap over to chain drive. Just thinking of something to do to this one over the winter to keep me from thinking about a new bike.

[TXChop]

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

[No Cents]

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast. I found out that this will easily happen in at least the 1st three gears to me. I've very quickly found myself changing my normal riding style and having to basically baby the bike to keep it from busting the rear tire loose on any wet roads. Hell...it's hard enough to learn to hold back on it on dry roads when the bike just wants to get up and go. The temptation is always there to feel that horsepower.

[PoorUB]

I have a 124 now that makes 137 and as much fun as it is, I'm a little bored.

It may be time to spend some cash on an import sportbike to get your thrills and run the Harley when you cruise or travel. It would be one heck of a lot less money in the long run!

[08flstf]

I already have to be careful in the rain. The sport bike or import bike thing doesn't work as those are made for vertically challenged people. I only want one bike to pay insurance on unless I win the lottery. lol 

[CVOKing]

My 124" is just shy of 160hp. It's in dyno section.
A B2 head 124" from Kendall Johnson would smash
the 160 mark

[Nastytls]

I already have to be careful in the rain. The sport bike or import bike thing doesn't work as those are made for vertically challenged people. I only want one bike to pay insurance on unless I win the lottery. lol

I would disagree. I'm 6'7" and at 43 have ridden sport bikes my entire life. I bought a R9T Racer this year as a twisty toy and despite it's really aggressive riding position I've put 300 miles on in a day. You want fast with zero reliability issues or PMS, get a ZX14, they are quite comfortable and will flat destroy all but the most extreme Harley and not even break a sweat.

[PoorUB]

I already have to be careful in the rain. The sport bike or import bike thing doesn't work as those are made for vertically challenged people. I only want one bike to pay insurance on unless I win the lottery. lol

For what it costs to build real HP in a Harley it would be a lot less money to buy a used sport bike and pay insurance on both!

[Ohio HD]

But you guys forget one thing. Anyone can have a fast sport bike, all you have to do is buy it. But making your Harley a fast Harley, well, not everyone can do that. Some of you guys are ridding HD's maybe in the last five to ten years, before that other brands. Some of us, myself included, Harley's are all we've ever ridden or want. Myself since 1979.

So like they say, if I have to explain it.....     


I say go for the 160+ Twin Cam. Not that many of them out there, you'd be in a small but respected club.

[pwmorris]

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast. I found out that this will easily happen in at least the 1st three gears to me. I've very quickly found myself changing my normal riding style and having to basically baby the bike to keep it from busting the rear tire loose on any wet roads. Hell...it's hard enough to learn to hold back on it on dry roads when the bike just wants to get up and go. The temptation is always there to feel that horsepower.

Two guys who have been there and know the deal....   on the street it ain't just about power, power, power. Stock wheelbase HD's on a factory rear tire are simply no match for these big hp builds.
I'm talking your original question-
Legit, 160 SAE PLUS-all day, with all run conditions, and no games. Not close, almost, could do it with this or that, or any other BS secret sauce on one single manipulated Dyno. At this level, 160 plus is really 160-170, or more, repeatable on any Dyno, any day, with no fear (saw a big talker at a shootout saying his bike made 160, then pulled 142....then with  his embarrassment growing as the truth was shown in front of his boys, he meekly said "well maybe 160 at the crank"...I Just shook my head...lol). It also ain't about ringers, race bikes, or trailer queens either, but real, daily driven, daily started, heat soaked, all day pump gas brutes-This is where a 143" would shine. No need to ring it out upstairs like my bike-nope, just turn the key and go, or dumb the motor downstairs with a different cam profile. Killer.
To really enjoy and appreciate big power on the street, the bike really has to be designed around the power to hook, handle, and deal with it. Otherwise it's an exercise in frustration....
My 126" current build is way more fun as a daily driver than my old 124"-guess I learned over the years...
With the cam profile I have now, and the way the power comes in, it's like I have two bikes as it is pretty mild around town, then a beast upstairs. The old 124" hit so hard, so early, it was as said....spin, spin, spin, unless I constantly backed off the throttle, or it was a wheelie machine....slow it down and short shift and it was jerky as I twisted it, or I sometimes couldn't find a nice, easy cruise rpm if traffic wasn't just right. My current bike is just the opposite-smooth roll on power till 4 grand, and most of my freeway and city stuff is below that. Only issue I have now (not really a big deal), is I run a solid sprocket which lets you know when you are backing out of the sweet spot power band, so I have to pull in the clutch and release the power. Only took me a decade to figure out how to run a 170 HP bike on the street, make a 9 Second pass, and still really enjoy it every time I turn the key and ride it wherever and whenever I want here in SoCal.
Your results may vary...

OP, it really comes down to your goals and what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are serious, and not just dreamin', I would order a 143" and pull that motor out and sell it, or keep it as a spare or for another bike. Done-


Sometimes, the more you get, the less you get out of it in real enjoyment and actually riding the bike on a daily basis.

BTW, you guys talking rice rockets...this is HTT HARLEY tech talk....take that import stuff to another forum....or get off the net and actually build an American V Twin that will actually eat rice for breakfast and cruise with your other HD buddies for dinner.....

[jam65]

Well said Paul. If you want to talk about buy and play..... Some of us like to push the envelope to make something more than it was intended to be. I am, among others who would consider this next level of performance a passion.

[PoorUB]

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast.

It is called a throttle, learn to use it!

[08flstf]

Well I just want to say thanks to everyone that has taken the time to offer suggestions, even the sport bike suggestions. I have no interest in sport bikes but understand the reasons for suggesting them. It would be easy, uncomfortable, but easy. I've ridden them and am in no way comfortable in that riding position. I want to stick with my Harley because even though it cost more, sometimes it's more fun making something fast that's not supposed to be fast. It's fast now but I get restless sometimes and want to change things up a bit. The 143 sounds good, but I don't think I'd get enough for my used 124 to do that. I have homework to do now and some head porters to talk to. I will definitely let you all know if I attempt this. Supposed to go to work in Puerto Rico soon and if that works out this should be a doable project.

[Ohio HD]

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast.

It is called a throttle, learn to use it!

Riding a 130+ HP and TQ HD is way different than a sport bike with 130 HP and 80 TQ. The HD V-Twin and 130+ TQ that comes in fast will spin that tire in the rain easily, and unwanted if not very careful.

I'm pretty sure Ray knows how to use a throttle. 

[PoorUB]

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast.

It is called a throttle, learn to use it!

Riding a 130+ HP and TQ HD is way different than a sport bike with 130 HP and 80 TQ. The HD V-Twin and 130+ TQ that comes in fast will spin that tire in the rain easily, and unwanted if not very careful.

I'm pretty sure Ray knows how to use a throttle.

The  R1 and wet roads will spin the tires with zero effort too. Cold asphalt is fun too as the tires like a little heat in 'em to get traction. Below about 65 degrees they are like riding on ice. Add cold and rain and it is worse.

What is real fun is when it is about 65 degrees is to hit the throttle and the back tire breaks loose, but just let 'er spin, the tire warms up from the friction and suddenly it hooks and lofts the front tire.

I am sure Ray knows how to use the throttle.

[hbkeith]

But you guys forget one thing. Anyone can have a fast sport bike,  Some of you guys are ridding HD's maybe in the last five to ten years, before that other brands. Some of us, myself included, Harley's are all we've ever ridden or want. Myself since 1979.

So like they say, if I have to explain it.....     

[No Cents]

    Having good throttle control on wet roads is why I said there will be a quick learning curve. You will learn fast...or chances are you will dump the bike. Give it a little too much throttle...and your skating the back tire with that much horsepower and torque going to the rear wheel.
    My 124" only delivers 100hp and 150tq @ 3500 rpm's. My normal casual everyday riding style I shift right around 3500 rpm's between gears. No way can I do that on wet roads and keep the bike upright and under me. I try my best to not get caught out in the rain...but it never fails...it sometimes happens, and I have to change my riding style a lot to get the bike and myself home safe in one piece.


     added later:

  if money doesn't come into play...like was suggested prior...I'd get a 143"er and bolt it in and have it tuned...and be done with it.
The 143" will cure your want for more power. By the time you spend all that money trying to make a 124" make 160+ hp you will have close to what a crate 143" engine costs...and there is no guarantee that the 124" will make 160+. The 143" will do 160+ hp right out of the gate in it's sleep...on any dyno it's put on.
   A lot of time of trial and error will go down that path if you do choose to try to make a 124 have the horsepower your wanting. B2 heads that have been loved on can get you the horsepower your looking for out a 124. But...a lot more parts have to play along with them too.

[PoorUB]

But you guys forget one thing. Anyone can have a fast sport bike, all you have to do is buy it. But making your Harley a fast Harley, well, not everyone can do that. Some of you guys are ridding HD's maybe in the last five to ten years, before that other brands. Some of us, myself included, Harley's are all we've ever ridden or want. Myself since 1979.

So like they say, if I have to explain it.....     


I say go for the 160+ Twin Cam. Not that many of them out there, you'd be in a small but respected club.

For me it is about the money. I don't have the coin to drop $25K on a motorcycle, then drop $10k-$15k more then sell it in a couple years and take a beating on it. I have a basically stock 2016 Limited with 18,000 miles on it. How much do I want to toss into a ride I will most likely replace in 3 years.

I bought my 2003 R1 with a bad engine for  $1,000, and put maybe another $1,000 into it and it is fast enough for rot my brains. I played the 107" cams, heads and so on. I can not afford to run down that road over and over again.

[1workinman]

  Perhaps the bar could be lowered a tad say to the low 150s or even 150 and that is a great running bike . Even the mid 140s or high 140s is a nice running bike and do it every day . Sure you can build or have built a high flier but smooth linear power and no PMS in a heavy bike like I ride works for me . I will admit I want more than a LC 124 has to offer , I just like the rush I get from feeling it pull hard . I was given good advice when ridding in the rain with a large engine and I was not fond of the experience but managed to keep it up right damn . I rather have a manageable 138 or so than a 160 and PMS BS . The only person you have to make happy is you . I understand it is not about what I want what I am suggestion is you have a good running bike now and to get to those levels is probably cost some serious coin and may not be as enjoyable to ride as you have now   i

[Ohio HD]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

[tommy g]

Ohio,,to what exhaust would you swap?

[Ohio HD]

I would be looking at Burns, or Wegner to start I guess. Possibly a mix of parts, but for that I would look for help from those who have done it.

[1workinman]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

A while back I was discussing the 143 engine with SS rep and asked about different camshafts other than the 635 and the fellow told me that they tried the 640 and the 675 but did not make the power they wanted. I did ask if added any compression to the engine well no. I suspect the results would have been different if  that was the case lol

[tommy g]

I would be looking at Burns, or Wegner to start I guess. Possibly a mix of parts, but for that I would look for help from those who have done it.

Is the Zilla falling short? I suppose the correct made to order pipe has the edge.

[Ohio HD]

I would be looking at Burns, or Wegner to start I guess. Possibly a mix of parts, but for that I would look for help from those who have done it.

Is the Zilla falling short? I suppose the correct made to order pipe has the edge.

For what I have now, the Boarzilla is fine. I don't know that it'll easily or at all support above 150 HP. Possibly the head pipes will, and use a different muffler. But that's probably playing a what if game.

[tommy g]

Gotcha!

[Jonny Cash]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

Interesting topic, and I have a little insight.  Mine made 150 and a few as a crate engine with headwork, made a fine everyday rider, would have rode it anywhere.  Cam change and a big compression bump took me to mid 160's, probably more but I have really short gearing on the bike.  Its still streetable, the 675 cam really feels no different than the 640 as far as manners. Fuel is my limiting factor, E 85 is found in abundance here in IL, but not so much everywhere.  But that peak HP number doesn't tell the whole story, it only looks like 10 more HP, but the average HP, or TQ for that matter over the intended operating range, make the 2 combos entirely different animals.  It goes over 150 @ 5200 now and carrires 160 out to 7k, its a beast, worth .7 at the track this year, so that 10 HP bump on the sheet doesn't tell the whole story.  A 143 is the easy way to a streetable 160 HP.  I have two other daily riders, a stock 88 police bike and a 110 roadglide, the latter which will get a build very similar to Brians 124, which to me looks like a perfect big cube touring bike

[Ohio HD]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

Interesting topic, and I have a little insight.  Mine made 150 and a few as a crate engine with headwork, made a fine everyday rider, would have rode it anywhere.  Cam change and a big compression bump took me to mid 160's, probably more but I have really short gearing on the bike.  Its still streetable, the 675 cam really feels no different than the 640 as far as manners. Fuel is my limiting factor, E 85 is found in abundance here in IL, but not so much everywhere.  But that peak HP number doesn't tell the whole story, it only looks like 10 more HP, but the average HP, or TQ for that matter over the intended operating range, make the 2 combos entirely different animals.  It goes over 150 @ 5200 now and carrires 160 out to 7k, its a beast, worth .7 at the track this year, so that 10 HP bump on the sheet doesn't tell the whole story.  A 143 is the easy way to a streetable 160 HP.  I have two other daily riders, a stock 88 police bike and a 110 roadglide, the latter which will get a build very similar to Brians 124, which to me looks like a perfect big cube touring bike

Thanks for the feedback on the 675 cams. They'll be on the short list for maybe next winter upgrades on the 124. As well as T-Man 662-3, Andrews 64, and Red Shift 687. All should give decent upper power. I think what I miss in the 124 that the 117 had was the rush of power when gaining RPM. This one still rushes, but the torque is up there the whole time, so it feels different. And I was hoping for a little more up top. It is a great touring motor no doubt about that. Starts easy, doesn't run hot.

[Neon Moon]

Little work to a V Rod and bottle feed it. Over 200 and still a Harley. Also may need to check other insurance company. Every time I add a bike mine goes down.
Multiple bike discount.

[Ohio HD]

Little work to a V Rod and bottle feed it. Over 200 and still a Harley. Also may need to check other insurance company. Every time I add a bike mine goes down.
Multiple bike discount.

So is a Sportster, but they aren't the same as a big twin, neither are.

[FXDBI]

Little work to a V Rod and bottle feed it. Over 200 and still a Harley. Also may need to check other insurance company. Every time I add a bike mine goes down.
Multiple bike discount.

So is a Sportster, but they aren't the same as a big twin, neither are.

   Bob

[Mother]

Hey 08, I'm in the same boat...my 124 has been 150+Hp and it's been 116hp but with the such violent torque it was crazy..I do love testing and learning....maybe I got a lil bored and I started testing cams for a better touring set up that I was currently running(Andrews 64 with lower compression). I am still in the same boat.... Ordering two sets of pistons, one set for a take no prisoners hero build and the other set flat tops for a stout touring bike.

[pwmorris]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

Interesting topic, and I have a little insight.  Mine made 150 and a few as a crate engine with headwork, made a fine everyday rider, would have rode it anywhere.  Cam change and a big compression bump took me to mid 160's, probably more but I have really short gearing on the bike.  Its still streetable, the 675 cam really feels no different than the 640 as far as manners. Fuel is my limiting factor, E 85 is found in abundance here in IL, but not so much everywhere.  But that peak HP number doesn't tell the whole story, it only looks like 10 more HP, but the average HP, or TQ for that matter over the intended operating range, make the 2 combos entirely different animals.  It goes over 150 @ 5200 now and carrires 160 out to 7k, its a beast, worth .7 at the track this year, so that 10 HP bump on the sheet doesn't tell the whole story.  A 143 is the easy way to a streetable 160 HP.  I have two other daily riders, a stock 88 police bike and a 110 roadglide, the latter which will get a build very similar to Brians 124, which to me looks like a perfect big cube touring bike

Cash Money, what's UP?
Sounds like you have your bagger racer dialed in and looking for more-nice.

Just want to be clear for everyone here looking at HP, HP, HP....
Your bike as it is NOW, is primarily focused and built as a hot rod drag bagger...correct? It is NOT a tourer, or daily driver-not could be, would be, or might be.....
You do have another bike, correct? Or is this your Daily Driver?

[TorQuePimp]

He's got a good base to work from


Probably $3500 in parts,a pipe and you are there

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Have a B2 set of heads/their matched pistons on a 124", with handmade J-bend staggered duals,(to accomodate that exhaust port) heading up on the dyno shortly.
12.0 cr and S&S .640.
Be mighty surprised if it isn't in the mid-150's, with ease, once completed.

[Jonny Cash]

It for sure can be done, here's a 124 that Kelly built. It rocks, but also notice the cams he's using, S&S 675's. I have no idea how street able these might be for any type of extended length riding, I'm sure he can speak to it. However he does race this bike.


http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=97891.0


When I built my 124 I was wanting to keep it more streetable, and as such made it a milder build. I quickly discovered that it wasn't enough for me, and will be exchanging cams this winter. I'm also pretty sure that won't satisfy me, but will keep me happier for a short time. Eventuality I know the heads will go back to Larry, I'll order new pistons, order an exhaust, more clutch items, and away we go. But I also have a 2nd HD that is mostly stock, and is fun to ride too.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=100336.0

Interesting topic, and I have a little insight.  Mine made 150 and a few as a crate engine with headwork, made a fine everyday rider, would have rode it anywhere.  Cam change and a big compression bump took me to mid 160's, probably more but I have really short gearing on the bike.  Its still streetable, the 675 cam really feels no different than the 640 as far as manners. Fuel is my limiting factor, E 85 is found in abundance here in IL, but not so much everywhere.  But that peak HP number doesn't tell the whole story, it only looks like 10 more HP, but the average HP, or TQ for that matter over the intended operating range, make the 2 combos entirely different animals.  It goes over 150 @ 5200 now and carrires 160 out to 7k, its a beast, worth .7 at the track this year, so that 10 HP bump on the sheet doesn't tell the whole story.  A 143 is the easy way to a streetable 160 HP.  I have two other daily riders, a stock 88 police bike and a 110 roadglide, the latter which will get a build very similar to Brians 124, which to me looks like a perfect big cube touring bike

Cash Money, what's UP?
Sounds like you have your bagger racer dialed in and looking for more-nice.

Just want to be clear for everyone here looking at HP, HP, HP....
Your bike as it is NOW, is primarily focused and built as a hot rod drag bagger...correct? It is NOT a tourer, or daily driver-not could be, would be, or might be.....
You do have another bike, correct? Or is this your Daily Driver?

It daily rider/ hot rod.  I ride it at least a few times a week. NOT a tourer for sure.  My 02 cop bike has become my choice of ride lately, love that bike.  I ride the hotrod to a couple local tracks and make passes on it, have 3 tracks within an hour ride, it holds up just fine.

[Durwood]

And you even have Closed Loop in the cruise area's for fuel mileage.

[Jonny Cash]

And you even have Closed Loop in the cruise area's for fuel mileage.

  wide bands on it all the time now!  keeps me dialed in at the track

[Templer]

BMW 1600GT- 160HP rated from the factory, WAY  better ABS F&R brakes. out handle, out brake, all the bells and more BUT riding comfort is a NOT IMHO. sporty- stylish(??) and your 160hp. No matter how you dress or act your a YUPPY on a BMer with 160 HP.  You also cant warm up AND completely mix a rattle can like my HD. 

[ken6217]

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

IF you are bored with 140, then 160 wont satisfy either.
You will spend cubic dollar per hp when you get over the 140 mark.
For me a 120-130hp is the most fun as you can ride it and go 10/10ths on it.
When i was running 160hp it wasnt as fun on the street. Had to be super careful.

    ...and it really sucks when you get caught out in the rain with all that power on tap. A quick learning curve will happen.
The bike will give you the sensation of like it's on ice if you try to apply a little too much throttle too fast. I found out that this will easily happen in at least the 1st three gears to me. I've very quickly found myself changing my normal riding style and having to basically baby the bike to keep it from busting the rear tire loose on any wet roads. Hell...it's hard enough to learn to hold back on it on dry roads when the bike just wants to get up and go. The temptation is always there to feel that horsepower.

Two guys who have been there and know the deal....   on the street it ain't just about power, power, power. Stock wheelbase HD's on a factory rear tire are simply no match for these big hp builds.
I'm talking your original question-
Legit, 160 SAE PLUS-all day, with all run conditions, and no games. Not close, almost, could do it with this or that, or any other BS secret sauce on one single manipulated Dyno. At this level, 160 plus is really 160-170, or more, repeatable on any Dyno, any day, with no fear (saw a big talker at a shootout saying his bike made 160, then pulled 142....then with  his embarrassment growing as the truth was shown in front of his boys, he meekly said "well maybe 160 at the crank"...I Just shook my head...lol). It also ain't about ringers, race bikes, or trailer queens either, but real, daily driven, daily started, heat soaked, all day pump gas brutes-This is where a 143" would shine. No need to ring it out upstairs like my bike-nope, just turn the key and go, or dumb the motor downstairs with a different cam profile. Killer.
To really enjoy and appreciate big power on the street, the bike really has to be designed around the power to hook, handle, and deal with it. Otherwise it's an exercise in frustration....
My 126" current build is way more fun as a daily driver than my old 124"-guess I learned over the years...
With the cam profile I have now, and the way the power comes in, it's like I have two bikes as it is pretty mild around town, then a beast upstairs. The old 124" hit so hard, so early, it was as said....spin, spin, spin, unless I constantly backed off the throttle, or it was a wheelie machine....slow it down and short shift and it was jerky as I twisted it, or I sometimes couldn't find a nice, easy cruise rpm if traffic wasn't just right. My current bike is just the opposite-smooth roll on power till 4 grand, and most of my freeway and city stuff is below that. Only issue I have now (not really a big deal), is I run a solid sprocket which lets you know when you are backing out of the sweet spot power band, so I have to pull in the clutch and release the power. Only took me a decade to figure out how to run a 170 HP bike on the street, make a 9 Second pass, and still really enjoy it every time I turn the key and ride it wherever and whenever I want here in SoCal.
Your results may vary...

OP, it really comes down to your goals and what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are serious, and not just dreamin', I would order a 143" and pull that motor out and sell it, or keep it as a spare or for another bike. Done-


Sometimes, the more you get, the less you get out of it in real enjoyment and actually riding the bike on a daily basis.

BTW, you guys talking rice rockets...this is HTT HARLEY tech talk....take that import stuff to another forum....or get off the net and actually build an American V Twin that will actually eat rice for breakfast and cruise with your other HD buddies for dinner.....

Not unless you put that American V Twin on a serious diet and shed a lot of weight.

[No Cents]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

[08flstf]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

[PoorUB]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

The said part about that is comparing 600 CC to 2030 CC. 3 1/3 times to size!

Plus over 3 times the money invested!

[Ohio HD]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

The said part about that is comparing 600 CC to 2030 CC. 3 1/3 times to size!

Plus over 3 times the money invested!

You might try this place out, I'm sure they have folks there that'll commiserate with you....                 


http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/

[Hossamania]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

The said part about that is comparing 600 CC to 2030 CC. 3 1/3 times to size!

Plus over 3 times the money invested!

Yup, money well spent!
Remember, you don't have to beat everyone, you just have to beat your friends (and family). If you can beat everyone, that's just gravy.

[build it]

The amount of discipline and money it takes to build a 160+ Harley is kind of staggering. Now you've got maintenance, and upkeep, and I'd guess that goes up pretty fast. Have sober view of what you want, and deal with people that have a track record of making that power regularly and you won't have a problem. There is maybe 4 shops that can actually get it done, but if you read this forum you might think there're more, but there isn't.

Added.
I don't think a 143 is the most economical means of getting there, a 124" with b2 heads is, probably by a very fair margin.

[No Cents]

    my son has a super light Honda 600R that he ran on the drag strip all summer long for some fun. It's a consistent 10.90 bike.
He tries to play with his dad's old heavy American V-Twin 2008 FLHX land barge bagger all the time...but he ends up seeing my tail light every time.     He can't stand the fact that he can't get by me. 

The said part about that is comparing 600 CC to 2030 CC. 3 1/3 times to size!

Plus over 3 times the money invested!

  I wish it was only 3 times the money invested.    ...but I would do it all over again. It was fun taking that stock 96" bike and turning it into what it is now.
  I can't touch my son on his bike if we go riding on twisty roads. I've tried to keep up...but my bike has too much mass to handle in the corners like his does. The straight line road is my only chance to get him.

  Hoss...you nailed it!   

[Barrett]

I grew up on Kawasaki's, H1,H2's in the 70's. New Ninja's in 85 GPZ900, 89 ZX10 and 2000 ZX12R.
It isn't so much the bike but knowing how to ride it.
I pulled a stretched Busa on my 96" FXDF for 3 gears.
He started reving at a light like he wanted to race and when the light turned green he was still sittin there while I was moving    He was about to catch me so I let off in 3rd..
I expect to get about 140 out of my 117" and that will be plenty for me.

[Hossamania]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

[rking1550]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

  I did, as a kid drove a 71 chevy  wagon, 402 big block, turbo 400 tranny , 411 posi rear, boy did I surprise a lot of people in that grocery getter,  lol

[PoorUB]

  I wish it was only 3 times the money invested.    ...but I would do it all over again. It was fun taking that stock 96" bike and turning it into what it is now.
  I can't touch my son on his bike if we go riding on twisty roads. I've tried to keep up...but my bike has too much mass to handle in the corners like his does. The straight line road is my only chance to get him.

  Hoss...you nailed it!   

I figured it was more, but I was trying to be nice!

If you look at where you are now and skipped all the learning to get there I bet you spent a ton of spare change you did not have too.

[ken6217]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

Well a BMW K1600 would just about fit that bill. Great tourer, handling, features, 160HP and 129TQ.

[Ohio HD]

There's nothing in the world wrong with riding a BMW, a Goldwing, a Ducati, or what ever your preference is. It just kills me though when a guy wants to ask for ideas and feasibility to take his HD to 160+ (which can be done) and the answers he gets is you should buy a blah blah bike instead. As was stated above, this is an HD tech site, ideas are welcome, but why try to talk a guy into doing a 180° from what he wants to do.

[kd]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

Well a BMW K1600 would just about fit that bill. Great tourer, handling, features, 160HP and 129TQ.

That power is at the engine, not the rear wheel. The torque is lower than most 160 rear wheel HP big twins, Granted the handling is there and that 1600 is comfy. It needs a tour pack though.

There are several 160 builds written about on this site that tour and go get groceries. Pick one and PM the owner for more info. 

[Hossamania]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

Well a BMW K1600 would just about fit that bill. Great tourer, handling, features, 160HP and 129TQ.

That power is at the engine, not the rear wheel. The torque is lower than most 160 rear wheel HP big twins, Granted the handling is there and that 1600 is comfy. It needs a tour pack though.

There are several 160 builds written about on this site that tour and go get groceries. Pick one and PM the owner for more info. 

The BMW does have a tour pak on one or two of the 1600 models.
I just appreciate making a full size touring Harley into a monster. It's wrong and awesome.

[turboprop]

There's nothing in the world wrong with riding a BMW, a Goldwing, a Ducati, or what ever your preference is. It just kills me though when a guy wants to ask for ideas and feasibility to take his HD to 160+ (which can be done) and the answers he gets is you should buy a blah blah bike instead. As was stated above, this is an HD tech site, ideas are welcome, but why try to talk a guy into doing a 180° from what he wants to do.

This happens almost hourly on this site. Typical scenario is a guy asks a question about A or B, and the responses are everything but A or B. Its really disrespectful. Sort of like telling OPs that they dont know what they want and everyone else on this site knows better. Comical.

[Hossamania]

I never would have picked that cam, it's all wrong....

[PoorUB]

Sort of like telling OPs that they dont know what they want and everyone else on this site knows better. Comical.

We could stay on topic and still never agree what is better!
One guy says build a 124", the 143" is too much money. Then the next says go 143", the 124" works too hard to get the results and is cheaper in the long run.

[No Cents]

  Ed...as the old saying goes...if it were easy...everybody would be doing it. You know as well as I do that it's not all that easy to do. It will boil down to how much money do you want to spend. Horsepower cost money...no matter what kind of vehicle it is. It won't be cheap or easy. You have to find certain people that you can put your trust in and give them your hard earned money for the quality services that they provide.   
  My bike was all trial and error for me. Tons of testing. If something didn't work out like I wanted it to, or expected it to...I'd try to find out what I needed to do to improve it.

  To the OP...I say go for it!     ...and I wish you luck on your goal.

[turboprop]

  Ed...as the old saying goes...if it were easy...everybody would be doing it. You know as well as I do that it's not all that easy to do. It will boil down to how much money do you want to spend. Horsepower cost money...no matter what kind of vehicle it is. It won't be cheap or easy. You have to find certain people that you can put your trust in and give them your hard earned money for the quality services that they provide.   
  My bike was all trial and error for me. Tons of testing. If something didn't work out like I wanted it to, or expected it to...I'd try to find out what I needed to do to improve it.

  To the OP...I say go for it!     ...and I wish you luck on your goal.

It certainly isn't cheap or easy thats for sure. And it is certainly not for everyone. Heck, many of my friends wont ride with me when I am on my FXR. Seems they cannot follow the same line as me and often end up going coffin the grass. Anyways.

For the OP, of the two cams you asked about, I would think the 9B would be the better choice given your intended usage and bagger platform, but the difference between them is really minimal (.020" lift and 4 degrees of duration). Really comes down to if your heads cause the additional lift in your target RPM range. My guess is no.

[pwmorris]

There is no perfect motorcycle, so we try to get close with what we have.
Want speed? Sport bike.
Want to tour? Not a sport bike.
Can you tour on a GSXR 600? Sure, but who does? Maybe three people, all young.
But, we can tour on a barge, and race as well. How many tour on a Harley FLH? Everybody.
How many race on a Harley? A hell of a lot more than tour on a small sport bike.
I say, build it!

There is no perfect car. If there was, it would be a 500 horsepower minivan convertible with a pickup bed, that gets 38 miles to the gallon, weighs 2800 pounds, and can tow 10,000 pounds.
For the record, I used to street race a station wagon. Who the hell does that?

Well a BMW K1600 would just about fit that bill. Great tourer, handling, features, 160HP and 129TQ.

There are several 160 builds written about on this site that tour and go get groceries. Pick one and PM the owner for more info. 

Really?
Who?
Post them here-
Legit 160 PLUS V Twin touring builds?
Secret sauce Dyno sheets, or 160 plus with ALL run conditions that can repeat anywhere?
Comon' man-I've been around this block, and most every block for that matter.
This ain't 150 plus (do you have any idea what it take$$$ to run a 150 plus build on pump as a tourer? Let alone a 160 plus build, which is MILES from 150-Miles, as in, way more difficult. Bump the comp to get there? Pump gas reliability and pinging is your friend. Radical cam? Try running around town in 100 plus degree temps in summer, then hitting the interstates from town to town as you hear your valve train beat itself to death and pray you get decent gas at the next stop....geez....

As said, this is Big Boy territory for a reliable, PMS free daily driver on pump.
The 143", at 10.5 pump delivers 160 plus on a bad day, every day. It ain't about some hero numbers on Joe Indys Dyno...read my reality check from seeing guys hearts and wallets snatched from them when they venture out of their "fake news" comfort zone and try and repeat them....it is a site to see the owners come in, and then leave with their chest size half as big-
The only reason my motor at 126" is holding up to these numbers is it can take being spun to 6,600, (actually like it with the big bore/short stroke), has the best heads in the business, uses the best parts everywhere, and it costs big boy cash...
Unless you go boosted or Forced induction, for the average joe rider on a bagger, the 143" can take crap gas, has proven to be reliable, runs on mild compression, and can't be touched against any other mild street build.

[Mother]

I struggle with this all the time....I'm going as far as ordering two sets of pistons, one pair domed the other flat top along with two camsets. Do a hero build then swap cams and pistons for a stout touring build. The struggle is real. Pwmorris is absolutely right.... There is a world of difference between 150's and  160's

[joelp34252]

Get a hold of Wolfgang Grasser. Back in 2012 at Daytona he pulled 176.45 horses out of his little 98" twin cam street bike on a Superflow dyno. I guess anything CAN  be ridden on the street.


Joel 2001 FLHT

[08flstf]

Get a hold of Wolfgang Grasser. Back in 2012 at Daytona he pulled 176.45 horses out of his little 98" twin cam street bike on a Superflow dyno. I guess anything CAN  be ridden on the street.


Joel 2001 FLHT

Wolfgang did the heads on my 117 I had in a fatboy that made 138/132. It was 12/1 comp with tw68's and I ran that in 95 to 105 degree temps here in humid east Texas. Cruise 75 to 85 and got 42-43 mpg all day. 93 octane is everywhere around here so I didn't have any issues with pinging with the tune I had. The reason I asked about the possibility of making 160+ out of a 124 is because I'm interested seeing if that's achievable . Also because I'm only interested in building up my 124, not buying a sport bike.
Thank you to all of you that have stayed on topic and given constructive comments on this topic. I think it can be done, but I know it will be expensive and I will have to do my do diligence .

[FlaHeatWave]

'Have seen an Honest 160+ out of a 124,,, S&S 640s at 11.3-11.4, Mucho Headwork, Burns (style ?) Pipe, strong everywhere, pump gas 93 friendly, good drivability up to 6k ft...

I wouldn't call it a commuter or a tourer, but 400+ mile days don't seem to be a problem...

The "magic" appears to be in the Heads and the Pipe,,, the rest is pretty much "off the shelf"...       

[1FSTRK]

Get a hold of Wolfgang Grasser. Back in 2012 at Daytona he pulled 176.45 horses out of his little 98" twin cam street bike on a Superflow dyno. I guess anything CAN  be ridden on the street.


Joel 2001 FLHT

Wolfgang did the heads on my 117 I had in a fatboy that made 138/132. It was 12/1 comp with tw68's and I ran that in 95 to 105 degree temps here in humid east Texas. Cruise 75 to 85 and got 42-43 mpg all day. 93 octane is everywhere around here so I didn't have any issues with pinging with the tune I had. The reason I asked about the possibility of making 160+ out of a 124 is because I'm interested seeing if that's achievable . Also because I'm only interested in building up my 124, not buying a sport bike.
Thank you to all of you that have stayed on topic and given constructive comments on this topic. I think it can be done, but I know it will be expensive and I will have to do my do diligence .

You first have to define the term "street bike"
Your 117 at 138hp is making 1.18 hp/ci but that is only going to get you 146 hp in a 124 ci platform.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Rick Muse's(RIP) 107" XL made 181 hp...

[Hillside Motorcycle]

There's nothing in the world wrong with riding a BMW, a Goldwing, a Ducati, or what ever your preference is. It just kills me though when a guy wants to ask for ideas and feasibility to take his HD to 160+ (which can be done) and the answers he gets is you should buy a blah blah bike instead. As was stated above, this is an HD tech site, ideas are welcome, but why try to talk a guy into doing a 180° from what he wants to do.

This happens almost hourly on this site. Typical scenario is a guy asks a question about A or B, and the responses are everything but A or B. Its really disrespectful. Sort of like telling OPs that they dont know what they want and everyone else on this site knows better. Comical.

Ain't THAT, the truth!!!

[1FSTRK]

Rick Muse's(RIP) 107" XL made 181 hp...

Another "street bike" no doubt.

[build it]

Get a hold of Wolfgang Grasser. Back in 2012 at Daytona he pulled 176.45 horses out of his little 98" twin cam street bike on a Superflow dyno. I guess anything CAN  be ridden on the street.


Joel 2001 FLHT

Wolfgang did the heads on my 117 I had in a fatboy that made 138/132. It was 12/1 comp with tw68's and I ran that in 95 to 105 degree temps here in humid east Texas. Cruise 75 to 85 and got 42-43 mpg all day. 93 octane is everywhere around here so I didn't have any issues with pinging with the tune I had. The reason I asked about the possibility of making 160+ out of a 124 is because I'm interested seeing if that's achievable . Also because I'm only interested in building up my 124, not buying a sport bike.
Thank you to all of you that have stayed on topic and given constructive comments on this topic. I think it can be done, but I know it will be expensive and I will have to do my do diligence .

You first have to define the term "street bike"
Your 117 at 138hp is making 1.18 hp/ci but that is only going to get you 146 hp in a 124 ci platform.

In an earlier post the OP says he rode from Texas to Houston, so I'd guess that kind of street bike.

The b2 bolt on kit for 124" engines at 10 something got a consistent 140-155 depending on state of tune, pipe, and who's dyno was used. That setup was never really in favor because it was soft on the bottom. Bump compression to 12.5, change the cams and exhaust, port the heads, and have compression set at 12.5, depending on who does the work etc etc yields 160+. Having sp not a lot of time mapping more than one set of b2 heads, I'd say if you aren't willing to run at least 11.5:1 static, the b2 is a waste based on out of the box area scheduling and how much it can be changed without major restructuring.

If you go down the restructuring path, the heads will have so much weld in them the heads will be better on the freshen.

Food for thought; that and 99¢ will get you a big gulp at 7/11 when they're on sale for 99¢.

[Templer]

Yes it has been done by more then several of those who HAVE the coin, times and people to get there. My BMer comment was out of line and off topic.  I agree with PWMorris statement. Dyno sheet racing vers the real deal (say PW himself?) on the street? YOU LOSE!!!!! Even IF you have a REAL 160HP at the tire.

[08flstf]

As far as street bike goes, to me it's something to be ridden regularly not just once a month or so. It would be great to still be able to take a long trip on it as I normally do that once a year. I don't tour the country like some do, although that would be nice. I normally take 150 to 200 mile trips every so often with a couple friends when we get a weekend together. Other times it's 50 to 100 miles of riding closer to home. I use it occassionly to run into town if I need to pick up something I can carry on it just as an excuse to get on it for a bit. I ride anywhere from 5000 to 7000 miles a year. I've run from east Texas to Sturgis and back once, Daytona and back once, Pidgeon Forge, Tn. once, and planning on riding up into Missouri next June. So you can see I'm not a big touring guy as I just don't have the time for that but One good trip a year and the rest closer to home. This is what I would still like to be able to do if possible. I will say that the shorter runs around home generally involve a fair amount of cutting up. It wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to trailer it on a long trip but that would not be my preference. I would like to not go any higher than 11.5/1 if possible just to help in case I'm somewhere where 93 octane isn't available. Maybe I'm asking too much, or wanting to have my cake and eat it too, but what's the point in having cake if you can't eat it?

[Ohio HD]

I wouldn't get stuck on any specific compression ratio just yet. The cam that you pick will dictate what actual cylinder pressure you see. This is where speaking to whom ever will work on the heads, and whom ever will tune the bike helps out. As well keep in mind it is possible to have two MAPS for the bike. One you use 99% of the time, the other for when you take that longer trip. Again talking to the tuner is key there as well.

[No Cents]

  to the OP...have you noticed not too many engine builders chiming in on your thread?
What your asking for won't come cheap and there isn't too many of them that will guarantee you 160+ hp without basically having a blank check to fill out after they are done.
   Best advice is to talk to who ever you decide to use for the head porting and have him tell you what it will take to hit your goal. A major part of the horsepower you seek comes from the heads...but many other parts need to be thought thru also. A good exhaust and a good induction system are also a necessity. A clutch that will hold that much horsepower, and a drivetrain that can with stand that kind of power being put to the ground. Then you can't skimp any on the tune. An engine of the caliber you are talking about has to be tuned at it's optimum to get the best results out of it.

[Barrett]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm at 10.8/1 right now with 640's and a 58mm throttle body and 5.8 injectors with a Dragula 1 with the 2.55 baffle. Was thinking going as far as 11.5/1, going with an HPI 64mm throttle body, keeping the 640's, porting the heads, and have the 3.0 baffle if needed.

That's what I would do. You might be a bit shy of 160 but you would get a good bang for the buck.
My 89cc S$S heads didn't look too good as far as sloppy casting. There was no way they were going on without porting.
I would run a compression check and see where it falls now then have it adjusted to favor the 640's.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Walk in the park to see 150/150 from a 124" on dynos from Fla, to Calif, to NY,........160 hp is yet something altogather different.
The higher you climb, the harder it is, to climb higher.
I know at one time, there was an individual on this site, that laid claim to a Mikuni carb equipped, 160hp with a 124", using a .640 "stick"......along with a White Bros. E series pipe.....I was born at night....just not last night...

[Tireman]

Your plans to bump compression and keep the 640s look very similar to my build. The tuner set the limiter @ 5800 because I do more touring than bar hoppin. It's not 160+ but it was still pulling @ 5800 and I  was told they will pull to 64-6500. I only have the 55/58 tb too. I have close to 20k trouble free miles so far on it. Good  luck keep us posted.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=90369.0

Added Later: If you can get to 150+ torque it will feel like it has 160+hp. I ride mine all over the place and it's a blast.  I agree with Barrett

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm at 10.8/1 right now with 640's and a 58mm throttle body and 5.8 injectors with a Dragula 1 with the 2.55 baffle. Was thinking going as far as 11.5/1, going with an HPI 64mm throttle body, keeping the 640's, porting the heads, and have the 3.0 baffle if needed.

That's what I would do. You might be a bit shy of 160 but you would get a good bang for the buck.
My 89cc S$S heads didn't look too good as far as sloppy casting. There was no way they were going on without porting.
I would run a compression check and see where it falls now then have it adjusted to favor the 640's.

[Nastytls]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

[No Cents]

Walk in the park to see 150/150 from a 124" on dynos from Fla, to Calif, to NY,........160 hp is yet something altogather different.
The higher you climb, the harder it is, to climb higher.
I know at one time, there was an individual on this site, that laid claim to a Mikuni carb equipped, 160hp with a 124", using a .640 "stick"......along with a White Bros. E series pipe.....I was born at night....just not last night...


      100%

[build it]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

To many to list.

[02roadcling]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

To many to list.

45 degrees.

   cling

[Hossamania]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

To many to list.

45 degrees.

   cling

One simple way to think of it, in a 2 cylinder motor, each piston must perform 50% of the work, in a V8, each piston only has to perform 12.5% of the work, plus many other factors. Maybe I'm not looking at that correctly, but I'm trying.

[Ohio HD]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

To many to list.

45 degrees.

   cling

Yes, 405° firing interval doesn't help much.

[Ray G]

Finally a post with some brimstone & fire. Lots of opinions but as mentioned would like to see some builders adding accurate & tested comments. This post is just fascinating, I eagerly wait till we see some factual results.  I haven't seen a post that kept me so interested since the beginnings of the Barn Build which is a classic by anyone's standards.  Not intending to step on anyone's toes just interested in all the replies.   

[gordonr]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

There are a few reasons. 1st is HD's having a siamese intake manifold, its a hp killer. 2nd being intake manifold volume is way to small. Est 20 sq inches and should be the volume of both cylinders combined for reserve cylinder fill (consequently the reasoning behind large TBs for 2 cylinders). 3rd is the intake runner length. Estimate 3.5" on an HD, should be at least 12''. There a couple more but its dinner time

[Ohio HD]

Finally a post with some brimstone & fire. Lots of opinions but as mentioned would like to see some builders adding accurate & tested comments. This post is just fascinating, I eagerly wait till we see some factual results.  I haven't seen a post that kept me so interested since the beginnings of the Barn Build which is a classic by anyone's standards.  Not intending to step on anyone's toes just interested in all the replies.   

I posted two members dyno results that have made the HP. The scope of their builds are listed on their post.

[Matt C]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

There are a few reasons. 1st is HD's having a siamese intake manifold, its a hp killer. 2nd being intake manifold volume is way to small. Est 20 sq inches and should be the volume of both cylinders combined for reserve cylinder fill (consequently the reasoning behind large TBs for 2 cylinders). 3rd is the intake runner length. Estimate 3.5" on an HD, should be at least 12''. There a couple more but its dinner time

That pretty much nails it. (The induction system is total crap by any standards)

[1workinman]

Walk in the park to see 150/150 from a 124" on dynos from Fla, to Calif, to NY,........160 hp is yet something altogather different.
The higher you climb, the harder it is, to climb higher.
I know at one time, there was an individual on this site, that laid claim to a Mikuni carb equipped, 160hp with a 124", using a .640 "stick"......along with a White Bros. E series pipe.....I was born at night....just not last night...


      100%

Well it has not been that long ago that 150 hp daily drivers were the talk that was repeatable on the dyno lol .

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Is there a specific reason why it is so difficult to get a HD to 1.3 per ci and so easy to get a V8 there?

There are a few reasons. 1st is HD's having a siamese intake manifold, its a hp killer. 2nd being intake manifold volume is way to small. Est 20 sq inches and should be the volume of both cylinders combined for reserve cylinder fill (consequently the reasoning behind large TBs for 2 cylinders). 3rd is the intake runner length. Estimate 3.5" on an HD, should be at least 12''. There a couple more but its dinner time

One of the reasons our "Cross Ram" manifold, with either B or D series S&S carbs worked so well.
Paul Morris knows.

[ecir50]

That's just a tease without pics.

[TheDog]

I have S&S T124 with b2 heads. I have dynoed bike several times. It makes app 160 rwhp. I´m going to "uppgrade" motor
with S&S G extreme kit this winter and better exhaust.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=88026.0

[pwmorris]

That's just a tease without pics.

Here ya go...
Warming up the tire using the cross ram-


And in the winners circle-







And what I run now on my street bike-
I cant stand the crap HD solution splitting into the heads....Plenum works great for me on the street...




And here is J Shaheens 124" that makes 200 HP using a hand made plenum and intake by SA Racing (who ported and redid my plenum on my street bike as well as my race bike)


Made 189 at the shootout but after further testing nailed 200-   https://goo.gl/4QdTCJ

[ecir50]

Awesome pics Paul but was thinking pics of the just the intake not on bike to get a visual of the cross ram. Was thinking cross ram had individual runners but now see they have a common plenum from the pics above.

[1FSTRK]

 But it was nice that he included the trophy pic form the Pinup Models bike show.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

That's just a tease without pics.

Here ya go...
Warming up the tire using the cross ram-


And in the winners circle-







And what I run now on my street bike-
I cant stand the crap HD solution splitting into the heads....Plenum works great for me on the street...




And here is J Shaheens 124" that makes 200 HP using a hand made plenum and intake by SA Racing (who ported and redid my plenum on my street bike as well as my race bike)


Made 189 at the shootout but after further testing nailed 200-   https://goo.gl/4QdTCJ

Thanks for posting those photos, Paul.

[ken6217]

Well since we know 160+ is not easily doable, can we now move this thread to Earl's Place and discuss those Blondes in the photo? 

[joelp34252]

That does not look like any AHDRA winners circle photo I have ever seen. Which race was that at. I'm curious.


Joel 2001 FLHT

[pwmorris]

That does not look like any AHDRA winners circle photo I have ever seen. Which race was that at. I'm curious.


Joel 2001 FLHT

Dyno Shootout/bike show winner
I only raced AHDRA a few times, as it was mostly East Coast.

[08flstf]

So could a custom intake with longer runners be made to work with an HPI throttle body, and if so would you reep the same benefits you would with a carbed bike?

[No Cents]

So could a custom intake with longer runners be made to work with an HPI throttle body, and if so would you reep the same benefits you would with a carbed bike?

  I ended up making an intake for my throttle body. I played with the lengths of the intake tube to find what worked best for me. My t/body is a S&S 66mm T/Hog and the intake tubes ID is the same size as the ID of the t/body...so the incoming air has an unrestricted flow directly into the throat of the t/body. Once your moving it's like a ram air.
This was the initial intake mock up.
[attach=0]

  After a little testing I shortened the intake tube length some. At the length it is at right now my engine has never lost one horsepower with the K&N air filter on it...or off it...according to Jim Kennedy on his dyno.
The final length of the intake I made.
[attach=1]

[Hillside Motorcycle]

So could a custom intake with longer runners be made to work with an HPI throttle body, and if so would you reep the same benefits you would with a carbed bike?

Have manufactured, and have had HPI manufacture 1" spacers for their 2 pc intake systems, to increase plenum volume.
We have also fooled around with the idea of manufacturing a 2-throated EFI, using either our Cross Ram, or something similar to the S&S Extreme G, common plenum.
Would not be difficult, but have so much else going here, that has taken a back seat now for quite some time.

[louloupa]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

[No Cents]

 Gregg Dahl has ran a "dual efi t/body" set up that he made a few years ago and he runs it on his drag bike...pretty cool looking rig.
I think he pretty much dominates the class he runs in with that bike.

[1FSTRK]

Well since we know 160+ is not easily doable, can we now move this thread to Earl's Place and discuss those Blondes in the photo? 

Here is the rest of the bike show and some of the dyno competition.
You may want to click on all three pages.
http://www.fastdates.com/BikeShow2005/BIKESHOW2005.01.HTM

[Ohio HD]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

[1FSTRK]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

[Ohio HD]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

[No Cents]

 Gregg's tuner (Damon) designed and made a complete ecm with all the needed software for his dual t/body set up.
I was told that the ecm set up Damon made costs over 5K if it was to be purchased.

[1FSTRK]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

[Jonny Cash]

One of these will do the job.  Gregg has this optimized, but I know a few guys running these on anything from drag cars to a few AFT flat-track bikes.  Lots of midget guys been running these for years.  They work well.
And they live tune
http://pe-ltd.com/engine-control-units.html

[Ohio HD]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

[1FSTRK]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

[Ohio HD]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

[1FSTRK]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

As I said we are in complete agreement as to what a perfect setup would be. In the meantime there are still major gains with doing it using the present ECM until something better is avaliable.

[build it]

Area scheduling in a dual throat setup is not conducive to making power without major restructuring (serious welding) or an extremely tall motor. Just an FYI to anyone considering this with their typical Harley build; wouldn't want anyone relieved of coin expecting major benefit.

As an example, the b2s on a 126" can safely have the port raised .100 with no weld. That's not close to enough by a country mile. A 124" b2 setup may be better, never measured one.

[gordonr]

Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

[gordonr]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

[Ohio HD]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

I would have to agree with you Gordon, especially when there is so much not available to use, rather you make what you need.

I just look at a big street motor, at times will be subjected to situations to cause heat buildup, and being able to keep the rear cylinder firing and richen it alone, and as well pull only small amounts of timing on that cylinder based on temperature and kPA at the time could certainly help. HD simply shuts them off as they have no other avenue now.

For all out performance, hard running, I agree that wide open running wouldn't gain much from duality of control.

[pwmorris]

Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

Thx-
Just a VTwin street bike HP junkie trying to keep pushing it on a bare bones budget, and not blow up more parts.
Yeah, Steve's HP results are incredible. His Race motors make crazy HP (close to 2 hp per cube), as does every part he touches (heads/intake, etc), and he is such a cool guy to work with. Straight up, no games, and he asks you what your goal is, you pay up, and then you get out of his way and let him do his thing. Kinda like Baisley-
As long as you have the patience, and don't bug him, It's golden after that...

[No Cents]

 hey Paul...didn't Wes Brown build J Shaheen's 124" for him?
I thought I read that somewhere. 

[Hossamania]

Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

Thx-
Just a VTwin street bike HP junkie trying to keep pushing it on a bare bones budget, and not blow up more parts.
Yeah, Steve's HP results are incredible. His Race motors make crazy HP (close to 2 hp per cube), as does every part he touches (heads/intake, etc), and he is such a cool guy to work with. Straight up, no games, and he asks you what your goal is, you pay up, and then you get out of his way and let him do his thing. Kinda like Baisley-
As long as you have the patience, and don't bug him, It's golden after that...

You mean, don't call every day and say, "Is it done yet, is it done yet? When's it gonna be done? I have a big run Saturday, will it be done by then?"
I had a friend do that on a shovel he was having a complete frame up rebuild done. His first bike, I told him not to call and bother him before he even started the project. But, he couldn't help himself.
Guess how that turned out.

[No Cents]

  never mind Paul...I knew I read it somewhere. It was right on Cycle-Rama's web page.

[attach=0]

[PoorUB]

You mean, don't call every day and say, "Is it done yet, is it done yet? When's it gonna be done? I have a big run Saturday, will it be done by then?"
I had a friend do that on a shovel he was having a complete frame up rebuild done. His first bike, I told him not to call and bother him before he even started the project. But, he couldn't help himself.
Guess how that turned out.

I did some major rebuild work on a car for a friend. I told him it would take a couple months. He said it was ok, lets do it. About a week into the project he called and wondered if he could get the car back sooner as his situation changed! I told him I will try pick up the pace a bit, but beings I had a full time job and this was a side line I wouldn't get it done much sooner. He kept bugging me until one day I had enough and I told him to come over the next day and pick it up. I pushed it out in the driveway and put all the parts in the trunk. He was surprised as he thought it was done, but I told him I was tired of him bothering me about it when I told him it would take a couple months to get it done and just because his situation changed it was not my problem. He finally idled down, and let me do it at my pace. He never asked me about it again even though we talked a couple times a week.

[1FSTRK]

why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

I would have to agree with you Gordon, especially when there is so much not available to use, rather you make what you need.

I just look at a big street motor, at times will be subjected to situations to cause heat buildup, and being able to keep the rear cylinder firing and richen it alone, and as well pull only small amounts of timing on that cylinder based on temperature and kPA at the time could certainly help. HD simply shuts them off as they have no other avenue now.

For all out performance, hard running, I agree that wide open running wouldn't gain much from duality of control.

I am sorry I thought this was about individual TBs
If you want to talk about better ECMs for harleys that is fine to.
As you said big powerful HD builds on the street would definately benefit from individual cylinder software regardless of the intake tract design.

[1workinman]

 I don't need a 124 inch that makes 160 horse power but I was looking forward to seeing what it takes . For instance heads that flow in the 340 or more . Camshaft that has x amount of intake duration . Well you can  use a lot of exhaust duration like what is  on the 143 but I think there other ways to get there . Intake of a certain size that will flow with the head cfm . Pipe size and muffler size . Good ring seal ect  . To make that horse power you can buzz it up past 6500 and still  make torque , or more torque and less rpm .  Something to be said about turbo motors that don't have to be so big just add some boost

[pwmorris]

  never mind Paul...I knew I read it somewhere. It was right on Cycle-Rama's web page.

[attach=0]

Wonder how that 200 HP motor would feel in your bagger Ray?
I remember talking to Shaheen when Cyclerama was building that motor (BTW, he also has a 550 HP turbo Busa'), and told him SA should do his intake and fuel delivery system. SA said that it was a fun project, and something he doesn't normally do...
For sure, that 200 HP 124" was built for one purpose...Dyno shootouts. Not for racing, touring, or other types of riding, but I love that. An owner who focuses on what they want, what their goals are, what they expect, and finds the right team of top pros to get them there.
Result? A winner....

[No Cents]

    a 200hp engine in my bike would be crazy. I'll just be happy with what I got. It's a lot of fun to ride.
Julio has a badass bike...no doubt about it. That engine was built specifically for making big horsepower. 

[pwmorris]

No doubt, you have plenty of HP for your hot street Bagger Ray .
Every owner should take a real, honest (here is where many falter), assessment of their goals and what kind of riding they do most of the time. Yours is dialed in, big time-

[No Cents]

   thanks Paul! 
It seems like it has been a never ending adventure to get it where it's at...but I do like where it's at right now. It suits me just fine.
Just hit the button and go. This past summer was the most fun I have ever had in my life on two wheels.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Gregg Dahl has ran a "dual efi t/body" set up that he made a few years ago and he runs it on his drag bike...pretty cool looking rig.
I think he pretty much dominates the class he runs in with that bike.

Nice.
Did not know that.
I spoke with Greg on the phone before......seemed like a nice fellow.

[turboprop]

FYI - Gregg Dahl does not use the harley/Delphi ECM in his Outlaw Street fuel injection system.

[No Cents]

 Gregg's drag bike with that dual t/body set up.

[attach=0]

[attach=1]

[jmorton10]

Gregg Dahl has ran a "dual efi t/body" set up that he made a few years ago and he runs it on his drag bike...pretty cool looking rig.
I think he pretty much dominates the class he runs in with that bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T5ohkmUs28

[build it]

Bringing this full circle, can a 124" make 160+, still be reliable and tour? Recipe?

[1FSTRK]

Gregg Dahl has ran a "dual efi t/body" set up that he made a few years ago and he runs it on his drag bike...pretty cool looking rig.
I think he pretty much dominates the class he runs in with that bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T5ohkmUs28

I like this one, not a show bike in the group.
https://youtu.be/6_TENfORdeQ

[kd]

In case you haven't seen this, this is what it takes. 


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=101709.0

[1FSTRK]

In case you haven't seen this, this is what it takes. 


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=101709.0

I thought the exact same thing when I opened that thread.

[No Cents]

 B2 heads...massaged on by one of the best in the biz...big compression...and a custom pipe...just some of the parts that make the big top end horsepower. On a lighter frame like he has the bike has to be flat out crazy fast. It looked to me to be still pulling at 6900 rpm's.    He has to be pleased with the out come of this build.
  I don't know how friendly it would be with 12.75:1 compression and try to make that trip from Texas to Daytona and back like the OP says he does...but I bet it sure would get you there fast if you tried. [attach=0]

[jmorton10]

url=https://youtu.be/6_TENfORdeQ]https://youtu.be/6_TENfORdeQ[/url]

They killed it with the music drowning out the bikes.

~John

[pwmorris]

i] not a show bike in the group.[/i]
https://youtu.be/6_TENfORdeQ

They killed it with the music drowning out the bikes.

~John

No show bikes, and no daily driven street bikes in that video either.....
Those are very fast, no bar V Twin drag bikes that are trailered in, and trailered out.
Not a single Fast RK in the group...or that posted in this thread.

[thumper 823]

1.25 HP per cube should be the standard fare or baseline to shoot for.
Good heads, Comp ratio , cam, exhaust , with a fuel system that will support it is very doable
Anything less and there is a lot left on the table in my opinion.
Anything more with a slow turning engine N.A. is going to require magic and money.
Going AA would be cheaper. (artificially aspirated )
MHO

[HD/Wrench]

AS the quest for power trudges along . The fuel at the pump is not getting better . E 85 is not widely spread nor does it offer MPG compare to pump gas.  We as many other have been using Meth kits . progressive ramp in controllers . Simple enough sure a bit of saddle bag capacity lost . Just completed a 110 CI ( drop on kit)  SE 258 cam Our CNC comp ratio 10.3.1 Stock t/b and a aerocharger that is putting out 12-14 psi of boost . ( longer story behind boost )  Pump gas meth kit it made 200 hp 221 tq and There is more in it.  VERY safe tune there is another 15-18 HP in it .. Bike is crazy fast TQ was 100 at 2500 ish and peaked at the 220 mark at 3600 so think about the line on that . 

So today adding compression is not the end of the world if that is the path you want to take .

[1workinman]

AS the quest for power trudges along . The fuel at the pump is not getting better . E 85 is not widely spread nor does it offer MPG compare to pump gas.  We as many other have been using Meth kits . progressive ramp in controllers . Simple enough sure a bit of saddle bag capacity lost . Just completed a 110 CI ( drop on kit)  SE 258 cam Our CNC comp ratio 10.3.1 Stock t/b and a aerocharger that is putting out 12-14 psi of boost . ( longer story behind boost )  Pump gas meth kit it made 200 hp 221 tq and There is more in it.  VERY safe tune there is another 15-18 HP in it .. Bike is crazy fast TQ was 100 at 2500 ish and peaked at the 220 mark at 3600 so think about the line on that . 

So today adding compression is not the end of the world if that is the path you want to take .

I was looking at the turbo bike you tuned and thought wow that is the way to go lol .  I may have to give that a second look some time very impressive . I used the meth injection a long time ago and it helps a lot . I sure be willing to use it in a bagger here in the Texas heat to help any  problems there   

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Jim Cezleka of DynoTech in Batavia, NY, powersports dyno-tuner extraordinaire, has recently tuned a 2-cylinder turbo to 715 hp.
Kevin Cameron uses his services for solid info in his magazine articles.

[HighLiner]

Talked to Dahl @PRI last year, super nice guy that loves to talk performance.

[yobtaf103]

So for a streetable 160+ hp , where do we think the crossover point comes regards  na/ forced induction, cubic inch/ cost?

[PC_Hater]

So for a streetable 160+ hp , where do we think the crossover point comes regards  na/ forced induction, cubic inch/ cost?

Partly it comes down to where you are and who you know.
Having chums in the USA that will ship you stuff is cheaper than trying to buy it in Blighty.

If I was going for a streetable 160+ hp I would be looking at either a Big Dumb Engine 143" or a smaller (say 120") engine with a low boost turbo.
If you have a Delphi EFI TC bike the RB Racing turbo motor is about $1000 cheaper than the S&S 143".
Doubtless there are many hidden costs to add to both!
Throwing Yet More Money at both will get you comfortably beyond 160HP and still be streetable.
Which one floats your boat?

(I would choose the turbo, but I find a 24hp flathead fun to ride so what do I know?)

[C-Cat]

Supercharging, turbo, with a conservative tune and cylinder pressure np. E85 or meth injection on high compression na engines can do it also.
My Buddy runs meth injection on his Buick GN turbo, pounds on it all daily. Took it to the track 2nd pass 11.19 was told to slow up to 11.50 because of no cage.
You can barely hear it at idle,  full exhaust, both seats, total sleeper out running a couple other friends gutted Mustangs with stroker small blocks and open headers,  The technology is there for 160hp daily ride, just need to choose a path like HD King and see it through.

[thumper 823]

Supercharging, turbo, with a conservative tune and cylinder pressure np. E85 or meth injection on high compression na engines can do it also.
My Buddy runs meth injection on his Buick GN turbo, pounds on it all daily. Took it to the track 2nd pass 11.19 was told to slow up to 11.50 because of no cage.
You can barely hear it at idle,  full exhaust, both seats, total sleeper out running a couple other friends gutted Mustangs with stroker small blocks and open headers,  The technology is there for 160hp daily ride, just need to choose a path like HD King and see it through.

Absolutely!
Look at the 2 cylinder Arctic cat Turbo!
170 HP out of the box all day long.
Harley has a problem-
They do not know where tradition and science should meet.
As it is, it collides.
Old school, old riders.
Both are passing.
No new engineering.
(Big deal, a 4 valve V twin, like that has not been done B4)
The Gumby breath neon engineers leave all the HP they can back at the factory so the "Herd"
can buy the parts later that SHOULD have come with the bike.
Instead of making and promoting a proper engine they stick with tradition.
They almost did it with the VROD, but somehow forgot they had to advertise and educate the "herd".
Willy left, and the marketing there sucks.

[C-Cat]

Supercharging, turbo, with a conservative tune and cylinder pressure np. E85 or meth injection on high compression na engines can do it also.
My Buddy runs meth injection on his Buick GN turbo, pounds on it all daily. Took it to the track 2nd pass 11.19 was told to slow up to 11.50 because of no cage.
You can barely hear it at idle,  full exhaust, both seats, total sleeper out running a couple other friends gutted Mustangs with stroker small blocks and open headers,  The technology is there for 160hp daily ride, just need to choose a path like HD King and see it through.

Absolutely!
Look at the 2 cylinder Arctic cat Turbo!
170 HP out of the box all day long.
Harley has a problem-
They do not know where tradition and science should meet.
As it is, it collides.
Old school, old riders.
Both are passing.
No new engineering.
(Big deal, a 4 valve V twin, like that has not been done B4)
The Gumby breath neon engineers leave all the HP they can back at the factory so the "Herd"
can buy the parts later that SHOULD have come with the bike.
Instead of making and promoting a proper engine they stick with tradition.
They almost did it with the VROD, but somehow forgot they had to advertise and educate the "herd".
Willy left, and the marketing there sucks.

I have a F1100 Turbo and I ride it on pump gas all day long 260 hp. The newer Yamaha 998 in the Cats and Yamahas are running 280tunes on pump gas, no meth or race gas

[thumper 823]

I have one also (2015) but I don't want to turn this into a snowmobile thread.
Your point / my point ,IS,  with proper combustion chambers, proper setup-
a two cylinder is capable of a lot of pwr.
A LOT of power.
Over two hundred all day long!
Yet Harley continues to floor these POS 60 HP slugs and wonder why they will be out of business in the next 5 years.
If they would spend some $$$$$$$$$$$   on R&D..
and not suing someone for a logo infringement they would be farther ahead.
Harley should have been paying atn. 10 long years ago.
They have been left in the dust, the dark, and this POS 4 valve head they are flaunting proves it.   (its worth 30 HP?    So what?)
There are several ways to integrate a turbo into the design,- if it was on  the blueprint and not just a
Last minute hang it on unit .
Shame on  them.

[08flstf]

Sometimes, all the fun is getting there and being able to.  Everybody knows buying a zx14r will get you 180hp and a bike that runs in the 9's.  Very few know what it is to make 160+ with a Harley, but more than that have tried.

Exactly, anyone can go fast on a sport bike or turbo bike. It's more fun to me to try to make something that's not supposed to be fast go fast than buy a cookie cutter sport bike. I like Harleys and that's why I brought up this question to begin with. I was looking at a job in Puerto Rico and it would have afforded me the opportunity (money) to try this, but that hasn't come through yet. If it does come through within the next month or so I will be giving this a shot, if not I'll have to wait a little longer but will still eventually try it.

[thumper 823]

Sometimes, all the fun is getting there and being able to.  Everybody knows buying a zx14r will get you 180hp and a bike that runs in the 9's.  Very few know what it is to make 160+ with a Harley, but more than that have tried.

Exactly, anyone can go fast on a sport bike or turbo bike. It's more fun to me to try to make something that's not supposed to be fast go fast than buy a cookie cutter sport bike. I like Harleys and that's why I brought up this question to begin with. I was looking at a job in Puerto Rico and it would have afforded me the opportunity (money) to try this, but that hasn't come through yet. If it does come through within the next month or so I will be giving this a shot, if not I'll have to wait a little longer but will still eventually try it.

You are letting Harley off the hook with your brand of thinking.
I for my part will not.
20, 30 or even 40K for 65 HP is out and out   FREEKIN OUTRAGEOUS!
I have owned many Harleys and only bought one new one in my life.
I learned early on from that experience I had to take it apart and redo it to make it go.
Therefore, no use in buying a new one.
Harley is going to see a huge sag in sales when the last crop of old guys goes out to pasture.
The way they do business, even now,  the used sales have tanked already.
I sincerely doubt they will be here in five years.
I am waiting for the final flush,  as it is circling the bowl as of right now.
A younger person not caught up in the bucket list thing will buy most anything besides an HD.
There is a lot to choose from.

[Ohio HD]

Sometimes, all the fun is getting there and being able to.  Everybody knows buying a zx14r will get you 180hp and a bike that runs in the 9's.  Very few know what it is to make 160+ with a Harley, but more than that have tried.

   Exactly            

[biggzed]

I don't disagree with anything you said about HD's lack of performance. The only problem with that is the vast majority of people riding HD's are not concerned about performance. They are concerned with how the bike looks and the reaction they get from people when they pull up on their "hog".

This forum does not represent the majority of the HD consumer. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell a HD rider what those little buttons are next to my spark plugs. Then explain to him why they are there only to hear: "why would you do that, they run fine right off the showroom floor".

JMO
Zach

You are letting Harley off the hook with your brand of thinking.
I for my part will not.
20, 30 or even 40K for 65 HP is out and out   FREEKIN OUTRAGEOUS!
I have owned many Harleys and only bought one new one in my life.
I learned early on from that experience I had to take it apart and redo it to make it go.
Therefore, no use in buying a new one.
Harley is going to see a huge sag in sales when the last crop of old guys goes out to pasture.
The way they do business, even now,  the used sales have tanked already.
I sincerely doubt they will be here in five years.
I am waiting for the final flush,  as it is circling the bowl as of right now.
A younger person not caught up in the bucket list thing will buy most anything besides an HD.
There is a lot to choose from.

[thumper 823]

I don't disagree with anything you said about HD's lack of performance. The only problem with that is the vast majority of people riding HD's are not concerned about performance. They are concerned with how the bike looks and the reaction they get from people when they pull up on their "hog".

This forum does not represent the majority of the HD consumer. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell a HD rider what those little buttons are next to my spark plugs. Then explain to him why they are there only to hear: "why would you do that, they run fine right off the showroom floor".

JMO
Zach

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to politely disagree with you.
The majority would pay anything for more power.
Just read the forums here, or anywhere on the net.
If I have a discussion with most anyone the conversation always turns to performance.
True, some specialize in wax and chrome but that would e the minority.
Even these people will talk about their mechanic and what he did for them.
It all about Cams, CR, pipes, dynos and etc.
There is HUGE   amount of business across America specializing in more power for your Harley.
Carry on.

[Hossamania]

The guys I ride with regularly want more power, to a point. Maybe cams, definitely not headwork, and no dyno tune. Mostly stage 1 exhaust, air cleaner, flash tune.
Guys I ride with casually three or four times a year, exhaust, no tune, "it runs just fine."
So yes, performance is a topic for them, but mostly, "I don't want to downshift" performance, not "I hate second place" performance.

[08flstf]

I'm the only one in my group of friends or even just people I know that I might occasionally ride with that cares enough about performance to actually spend money on it. All of them do a stage 1, most of them just for the sound, a few say it's for the performance but they would never spend money on a dyno tune because the stage 1 download is good enough. I'm not saying Harley's stock performance is good but then neither is Indian or even Victory for that matter. Don't know of any air cooled v-twin two valve head metric cruisers or baggers that shake the earth either. I've modded nearly every bike or vehicle I've ever owned anyway to try to get them the way I want them. So it's not like I'm letting Harley off too easy, I would be doing the same things to any other bike I bought instead.

[thumper 823]

In all cordiality, I never had a guy say to me "How can I make this thing go slower?"
I tell them what might help, the probable cost and they get all pooed because of the ...money!
Then the next day-
I see them go buy a piece of chrome crap for about the same amount.
For lots of guys, they are posers or bucket list fulfillers and wished they had bought a HD when they were twenty instead of sixty.
Trailering the dam thing everywhere and wanting to ..looook kool.
They are enamored by every glittery thing, like a schoolgirly starring into a Woolworth's store window.
"Gimme that shiny thing to bolt on!"

[Pete_Vit]

In all cordiality, I never had a guy say to me "How can I make this thing go slower?"
I tell them what might help, the probable cost and they get all pooed because of the ...money!
Then the next day-
I see them go buy a piece of chrome crap for about the same amount.
For lots of guys, they are posers or bucket list fulfillers and wished they had bought a HD when they were twenty instead of sixty.
Trailering the dam thing everywhere and wanting to ..looook kool.
They are enamored by every glittery thing, like a schoolgirly starring into a Woolworth's store window.
"Gimme that shiny thing to bolt on!"

got maybe 3-4 guys at my site that ride, I talk about cams, intake,exhaust, ignition.. they just politely shake their heads as they walk into the building 
the guy I asked about his Kawi- Vulcan, I regularly send him links to sites for fixes, upgrades....he's not interested, it looks like a Harley and got pipes that make it sound like a harley, so 

[Hossamania]

In all cordiality, I never had a guy say to me "How can I make this thing go slower?"
I tell them what might help, the probable cost and they get all pooed because of the ...money!
Then the next day-
I see them go buy a piece of chrome crap for about the same amount.
For lots of guys, they are posers or bucket list fulfillers and wished they had bought a HD when they were twenty instead of sixty.
Trailering the dam thing everywhere and wanting to ..looook kool.
They are enamored by every glittery thing, like a schoolgirly starring into a Woolworth's store window.
"Gimme that shiny thing to bolt on!"

got maybe 3-4 guys at my site that ride, I talk about cams, intake,exhaust, ignition.. they just politely shake their heads as they walk into the building 
the guy I asked about his Kawi- Vulcan, I regularly send him links to sites for fixes, upgrades....he's not interested, it looks like a Harley and got pipes that make it sound like a harley, so 

And don't forget, he got all that Harley-ness without paying the Harley price. So he's way ahead of the game...

[08flstf]

In all cordiality, I never had a guy say to me "How can I make this thing go slower?"
I tell them what might help, the probable cost and they get all pooed because of the ...money!
Then the next day-
I see them go buy a piece of chrome crap for about the same amount.
For lots of guys, they are posers or bucket list fulfillers and wished they had bought a HD when they were twenty instead of sixty.
Trailering the dam thing everywhere and wanting to ..looook kool.
They are enamored by every glittery thing, like a schoolgirly starring into a Woolworth's store window.
"Gimme that shiny thing to bolt on!"

Quit picking on my friends!!!

[PoorUB]

In all cordiality, I never had a guy say to me "How can I make this thing go slower?"
I tell them what might help, the probable cost and they get all pooed because of the ...money!
Then the next day-
I see them go buy a piece of chrome crap for about the same amount.
For lots of guys, they are posers or bucket list fulfillers and wished they had bought a HD when they were twenty instead of sixty.
Trailering the dam thing everywhere and wanting to ..looook kool.
They are enamored by every glittery thing, like a schoolgirly starring into a Woolworth's store window.
"Gimme that shiny thing to bolt on!"

got maybe 3-4 guys at my site that ride, I talk about cams, intake,exhaust, ignition.. they just politely shake their heads as they walk into the building 
the guy I asked about his Kawi- Vulcan, I regularly send him links to sites for fixes, upgrades....he's not interested, it looks like a Harley and got pipes that make it sound like a harley, so 

And don't forget, he got all that Harley-ness without paying the Harley price. So he's way ahead of the game...

I ran across an import painted in traditional HD style and colors, he had added HD hard bags and right down to HD badged Dunlop tires! I had to look close to see what it was as all the factory emblems had been removed. At a quick glance it almost looked like a HD.

I wondered how much money he spent to make it like like a HD.

[pwmorris]

Good heads and the parts to match is the hard way. Find a friendly dyno is an easier alternative!

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seen More BS Dyno sheets and false claims over the last 15 years than I can remember.
Big numbers sells parts, stroke egos, and make $$$.
Finding out if these "160 plus" daily driven street bikes are actually fast ( a legit 160 plus daily driver should at least be in the mid to low 10's), is a whole other thread....

[rhuff]

The guys I ride with regularly want more power, to a point. Maybe cams, definitely not headwork, and no dyno tune. Mostly stage 1 exhaust, air cleaner, flash tune.
Guys I ride with casually three or four times a year, exhaust, no tune, "it runs just fine."
So yes, performance is a topic for them, but mostly, "I don't want to downshift" performance, not "I hate second place" performance.

How true.

I've spent a lot of money making my 2003 the best it can be.  Ohlins shocks.  Frame stabilizer.  107" all bore motor.  The motor was the last upgrade.  Next will be something with the front forks.  It's a major weak link.  My floorboard braces are scraped.  A lot.  How I wish the MoCo put a real suspension on these bikes.  While my 2015 RGS is leaps and bounds better........it's still antiquated. 

[pwmorris]

This should get er' done-and very streetable on pump gas, as long as your pockets are deep enough...

[1workinman]

 I took a ride in a Honda Integra that has a 496inch blower motor , glide ect , one of my brothers hot rods and after the ride he asked my other brother if he wanted a ride f no was the answer . A guy has to know his limitations lol and that bike would be it for me . I have a 143 inch in a Road Glide that Steve is working on now but not turbo beyond my skill sets to keep it up right all of the time lol . I leave that to the pros

[HighLiner]

That looks like a bad ass ride!

[pwmorris]

That looks like a bad ass ride!

That thing would leave my street FXR in another zip code, as long as he can ride and control that power-

I took a ride in a Honda Integra that has a 496inch blower motor , glide ect , one of my brothers hot rods and after the ride he asked my other brother if he wanted a ride f no was the answer . A guy has to know his limitations lol and that bike would be it for me . I have a 143 inch in a Road Glide that Steve is working on now but not turbo beyond my skill sets to keep it up right all of the time lol . I leave that to the pros

True that-
With no wheelie or tire spin computer control, you can flip that sucker in an instant if you don't know what you are doing....once that sucker builds boost, all hell breaks loose....

[1workinman]

 Well I think that is a situation where I just show up and have a few beers and watch the show . My late brother was a air craft mechanic, inspector and he told me of a guy who stole a JATO and put it in the his  fire bird or what ever it was . Only problem what not way to throttle back , a problem that was discovered after the fact lol . He wound up in the side of a mountain . I think that the bike might have similar throttle if I tried it