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124" Project Storm Breaker

Started by Ohio HD, November 02, 2021, 05:00:30 PM

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HogMike, MBrown, BigBlue09 and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Ohio HD

May 09, 2022, 06:26:22 PM #175 Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 06:32:08 PM by Ohio HD
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Ohio HD

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No Cents

 Brian...have you given any thought to addressing the valve train geometry with using .700 lift cams? You will need to pay close attention to your rocker box covers for clearance too.
That Vulcan oil hole drilling rig is definitely the way to go.  :up: 
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Ohio HD

Yes, everything will be looked at to insure there are no issues with the valvetrain.

The elimination of the externally oil hoses is the only way to fly. You have to drill the transmission case for their oil lines anyway to run an S&S case. So you may as well do it right and eliminate the hoses.
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Ohio HD

A new tool. Twin Cam alignment tool for upper to lower rocker box alignment. Strictly cosmetic, but it may help when rocker arms with high lift cams are close to contact within the rocker lids. Just so that everything is aligned as it should be.

MBS Manufacturing. Makes nice tools, about half as much as Jim's tools most of the time.

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MBS Manufacturing - TCRBAS-A27
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Ohio HD

A complete set of Twin Cam rocker assembly fasteners from ARP. These mount the rocker supports, vent assemblies, upper rocker cover, lower rocker box. These won't let the monster cam throw the rocker assemblies into orbit.


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kd

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 11, 2022, 12:39:25 PMA new tool. Twin Cam alignment tool for upper to lower rocker box alignment. Strictly cosmetic, but it may help when rocker arms with high lift cams are close to contact within the rocker lids. Just so that everything is aligned as it should be.

MBS Manufacturing. Makes nice tools, about half as much as Jim's tools most of the time.

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MBS Manufacturing - TCRBAS-A27

I cut some aluminum shim stock from a drink can to wrap the fasteners.  The clearance along with the slight angle on the cover kept sliding it down and leaving a seam overhang.  You know what that does to an OCD person?  The shims prevented that from happening.  There is a full gasket surface now and they are even.
KD

Ohio HD

Friday the 13th!   What could go wrong?  Or maybe what could go right?

I spoke with Andrew at Darkhorse, the Carrillo rods shipped today. So they should have them one day next week. Maybe by the end of the month I'll have the crankshaft. Things are moving forward. I'm not rushed, and I know that quality takes time. Suppliers are doing everything they can. I don't rush people I ask to do work for me. They know their business better than I do.

I have a lot to check out, measure, clearance checks etc. when I start the lower assembly, crank endplay, piston to piston, piston to flywheel, etc. Then cams, gear to gear clearance, degree wheel, make sure that they're doing what they should be doing when they should be doing it. Then once that's good, valve to piston clearances, clearance rocker box upper and lower for rocker arm movements, etc. I don't like sudden noises that shouldn't happen. So I check everything.   



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Ohio HD

Ok, since we're getting closer. How about a cam guessing game? I'll give the intake closing value, and the lobe separation angle, see if you can determine what they are. These are off the shelf cams. They came wrapped in wax paper, then newspaper, then boxed.    :teeth:   

Intake closes at 63° after ABDC
Lobe separation angle is 109°

No help from the couple of you that knows what they are.....      :kick:



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kd

... and the intake and exhaust are .020 difference?
KD

Ohio HD

Give or take a thousands or so.   
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kd

Aha, So you have a true measurement then (not just going by the the spec sheet numbers).  I think I have it and I am sure I didn't get it from you "directly".  :teeth:  I can't think of a sneaky way to say what it is so I will sit back and watch.  If I am correct I'll tell you how I got it in less than 5 minutes and you provided it indirectly.  You'll like the answer.

tick tick tick
KD

Ohio HD

You have to consider, "valve lift" is based on rocker arm ratio x cam lift. Hence plus or minus a few thousands. Different ratios.... 
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Ohio HD

KD figured it out.     


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kd

Full disclosure.

It was easy. I went straight to the TC Cam Spec Sticky that Ohio so graciously spent time and posted for our use. It's a few lines above at the top of the page and one of the more complete lists with full specs you'll find anywhere.  I had the answer in about 2 minutes or less.

This is just another one of those things that makes HTT such a great tech site.  It's also why I and others (among some of the other benefits) became a site supporter and contribute each year.  In fact this reminded me that I do that every year in May and will do it right now before I forget.  :hyst:
KD

Ohio HD

Full disclosure photo.

Should be a hard hitting set of cams at the top end.


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Hossamania

Those look like some monster lobes, should be one hell of a fun ride.
We learn from history that we do not learn from history

Ohio HD

May 15, 2022, 12:17:12 AM #192 Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 10:50:17 AM by Ohio HD
I've input the data for this motor as best I can. The head data I only have some guesses as to what the specs are and how they effect the motor. Soon I'll know the heads, specs and can make another run in the software.

If all goes as I think it should, I will be close to these numbers. We'll see...... :chop: 

This is calculated as SAE correction and real wheel HP and torque.

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Armin

As Hoss mentioned I would also tag these grinds as "monster lobes" by the way they look, and are these cams noisy with those steep ramps? A while ago I tried Bob Wood's TW9BG cams which I liked very much for their wide torque band but I couldn't get the noise cured away so I switched to Crane HTC-2GD cams, they aren't that noisy.
And Ohio, which software do yo you use for that evaluation? I'm just curious...

Armin.
Nothing can ruin a Man's day faster than an Almost-Takeoff!

Ohio HD

These cam lobes may make "some" noises, but it doesn't concern me. One thing that gets overlooked a lot is using the correct valve springs with aggressive cams. You keep the roller on the cam, and there shouldn't be excessive noise. I've used a lot of Leineweber cams in Shovel Head motors. As long as I had Velva Touch lifters in them, they were quiet. I've also used a few different Leineweber cams in Evo motors with the OEM lifters. They also were not at all noisy.

The software is Engine Analyzer Pro. Is the values it's giving accurate? We'll see once the bike is done and gets a dyno tune. Is 170 SAE feasible? Yes it is. Will I really hit that much? I can only hope and wait and see. Some values such as powertrain loss you have to guess at to get rear wheel numbers.
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Armin

Thanks for the reply Ohio HD, I also use Engine Analyzer Pro for my approximations and find it a bit problematic to adjust the intake and exhaust variables to resemble the realistics, but in general I am quite content with the possibiities of this software.

Armin.
Nothing can ruin a Man's day faster than an Almost-Takeoff!

Ohio HD

I agree about the intake side. Unless you can flow the system, it's not 100% accurate. But I have pretty good data in there.

My exhaust system is easy, I know the specs as Burns will supply them to you.

They only recently (I'm not sure how far back) started using some HD motor inputs. Rather than using automotive input screens and trying to make that work. 
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kd

 :agree:   The Burns pipe will NOT be a hold back.  It may just be the best performing pipe out there for your goals.  Just look at where they get used to answer that question. I really think the megaphone can shape is part of the recipe in that pipe.

I also think you were very selective with the throttle body and breather making sure they were capable of delivering properly on both ends of the curve.  At some point I seem to remember you mentioning your injector choice but can't remember what it was.  I did however wonder if it was enough to dependably feed it at the top when your making that kind of power. 

IMO, If you just visually compare the profile of those cams to a similarly aggressive Wood cam lobe like a 9, I think that you will see they are a softer turn off the lobe and that should help to reduce lofting up there where I know you want to go.  :teeth:
KD

Ohio HD

I have Siemens 8.6gr/sec injectors, based on HD's fuel pressure of 58 PSI. Should be plenty to get there with overhead.


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Ohio HD

Without actually measuring the entire lobe of a Wood and Leineweber cam, I'm just guessing. But from what I've always visually seen, and from what Jim Leineweber (RIP) had told me in the past was his cams opened the valves to maximum lift from the base circle at a faster rate than most or all other off the shelf cams. That was one of the reasons he used 0.020" lift timing specs rather than the HD standard of 0.053". He told me that after 0.020" cam lift, it was harder to get a repeatable result due to the rate the lifter rode up the lobe. He started adding the 0.053" specs I think during the Evo days. That way most people could relate his cams to others by timing. 

Jim Leineweber had always said, the more in crankshaft degrees that you're at or near full valve lift, the greater the torque spread will be. So he opens them fast, and then closes them fast.


Leineweber Cams
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