Engine problems after 95" build part II - help needed

[Adam76]

Being no expert I rely on the experts for certain things.  I've done a few shovel head complete rebuilds, Helped a friend with an Evo.. Never even had a head off of a TC engine. Not that I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go where you have. For me here's where I let the tried and true Indy take over.. I give them the bottom end assembled minus the cam chest components and I take the pistons off. They get the jugs and heads also. I have them do what's needed in the lower end, heads and jugs. I have them assemble the lower end. Some will ask if you want to put the case halves together yourself. I say let them do it.  They take care of the jugs boring, honing and piston fit.  I use what ever pistons and rings they suggest.  I have always assembled the top end my self.  I have had literally 0 problems this way. Find yourself a good Indy and it will be worth the $$$$ spent. Just my 02 from a guy that doesn't do this stuff every day.

Thanks motorhogman, really appreciate your advice. 


I wish it was different, but the kind of Indy you are referring to just doesn't exist here where I live in the West cost of Australia. And if I can find someone who can do the bottom end, it's crazy expensive. A friend of mine just got quoted $1000 just to replace  the crankshaft bearing that is part of the case only, nothing else.... 

There's an old guy who I know that may be able to help me with the bottom end, but this motor is a balanced motor as well, so I imagine it's even more complicated. 

Thanks again. 

[Adam76]

I'm no expert either but I have done a top end job on my bike.  At the beginning of this thread  there was speculation where the missing part of the oil ring rail went.  Now we know.  Apparently into the crankcase.  The contaminants would have at a minimum gone  into the scavenge side of the pump, through passages in the cam plate where the relief valve is and into the dirty side of the filter.  You didn't say if you cut the filter open, but if the filter was clogged enough so it's own bypass opened  that oil went everywhere else.  You absolutely need a factory service manual because the engine section should have an explanation with pictures describing everywhere in that engine the oil goes.  Since it seems to me the piece of oil ring went from the bottom of the rear jug into the crankcase everything in there is suspect for contamination including both crankshaft bearings and both connecting rod bearings, and I don't see any that could ever be cleaned by flushing, so just like all the others I would say that engine needs to be totally torn down (and I mean every part of it that oil can go) and meticulously cleaned/inspected/replaced as necessary.  Sorry I know that is not what you want to hear but that is my thoughts.  Just inspecting the cam chest won't do.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, that's definantly not the news I was hoping for.... 

[Adam76]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

[smoserx1]

There will be 2 crank bearings, one in each case half.  I really have no idea if you could clean them out or not.  The bearings are not too expensive.  The flywheel assembly should lift out with the connecting rods attached.  The real problem is if the connecting rod bearings need to be replaced the average Joe can't do this as it takes serious special equipment to disassemble the flywheel assembly.  Maybe you could really flush it out somehow (maybe large bucket and lots of solvent?)...just don't know.  I wish u the best.

[Don D]

Well things have changed for sure. I suggest contacting a good shop that has plates and does this work every day.
Contact: Mark Hood
'Hood Motor Service" is at, 46 Crozier Ave Daw Park 5041 South Australia.

Contact numbers are, Mobile 0418837668 and land line 08 82774049 hours 9-5 Mon to Fri ACST.

[turboprop]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

[Adam76]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.

[Hossamania]

Adam, do you have a factory service manual?

[Adam76]

Adam, do you have a factory service manual?

Yes, most definitely.

[turboprop]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.

Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.

[Adam76]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.

Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.

Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. 

[turboprop]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.

Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.

Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. 

No press required. Purchase those two tools and that is all that is required to separate the case halves, press the crank out of the left side case and press the Timken back on to the crankshaft. Separating the cases and pressing them back in with the two tools I called out will take less than ten minutes on the bench.

Imagine if you will, the case halves with the flywheel installed is on top of a simple stand, maybe a piece of 6" PVC pipe with the output shaft pointing up. The tool to separate the cases is attached to the left side case with 4 bolts. Then a bolt is screwed into the middle of the tool that pulls the left side case off of the flywheel. Once the left side case is free the crankshaft can be simply gifted out of the right side case.  Done.

To reassemble, same thing but with the other tool. The right side case is placed on a stand, the fly wheel is placed inside of it. The left side case is then placed in top of the crankshaft and the other case. Now the timken bearing and spacer are placed on the crank shaft and the tool presses it onto the output shaft. Done.

Everything else is a no brainer, stuff has to be clean, threads chased, sealant used, etc. Not really complicated stuff.

You will probably feel the need to coco on here and ask before you tighten a single bolt, etc, but seriously, do it yourself. Buy the tools, ask questions after you have read every thread on about this. Just do it.

[Adam76]

In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases -  do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience,  so I would have to pay to have it done.

Thanks.

The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.

Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.

Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.

Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. 

No press required. Purchase those two tools and that is all that is required to separate the case halves, press the crank out of the left side case and press the Timken back on to the crankshaft. Separating the cases and pressing them back in with the two tools I called out will take less than ten minutes on the bench.

Imagine if you will, the case halves with the flywheel installed is on top of a simple stand, maybe a piece of 6" PVC pipe with the output shaft pointing up. The tool to separate the cases is attached to the left side case with 4 bolts. Then a bolt is screwed into the middle of the tool that pulls the left side case off of the flywheel. Once the left side case is free the crankshaft can be simply gifted out of the right side case.  Done.

To reassemble, same thing but with the other tool. The right side case is placed on a stand, the fly wheel is placed inside of it. The left side case is then placed in top of the crankshaft and the other case. Now the timken bearing and spacer are placed on the crank shaft and the tool presses it onto the output shaft. Done.

Everything else is a no brainer, stuff has to be clean, threads chased, sealant used, etc. Not really complicated stuff.

You will probably feel the need to coco on here and ask before you tighten a single bolt, etc, but seriously, do it yourself. Buy the tools, ask questions after you have read every thread on about this. Just do it.

Thanks a lot, that makes it actually sound achievable. A lot less complicated than the FSM makes it look when I had a brief look through it today.

With help, I think I can get it done! Cheers 

[-deuced-]

The thing I like best about HarleyTechTalk is the tech. There's a lot of people on this site who are very experienced and this would be a relatively easy job for many of them. Adam, please don't be offended but I don't think you should attempt this. It's just my opinion and is worth even less than what you pay for it. You said yourself you wouldn't be comfortable splitting the cases and I don't want to try to encourage you into something that might be out of your depth. Stick to your original plan of going 95" and redo the things you know how to do, but better. Get the front cylinder off and inspect the components. Get that cam chest apart and inspect the components. You mentioned changing the CR575 cams before they were even out. Why? What's wrong with them? Get the crankcase out of the frame and make some enquiries about who can split/inspect/refurbish that for you. Once the top end is off and the camchest is empty you need to remove the oil lines and remove the outer and inner primary cases before you can remove the bottom end from the frame. You'll need some special tools to remove/install the primary. You'll need a big torque wrench that will torque left handed. Just because a torque wrench has a reversible ratchet head doesn't mean it will actually torque in both directions. Is your service manual genuine HD? Don't just briefly look at it, take some time and read it. Then read it again. Oil tank and lines are not that difficult to remove. The factory clamps on the oil tank drain tube can be tricky. Oil tank can easily be scratched on the seat post during removal. There's lots of other little things. Twin Cam Softail bottom end is a bit complicated. You want to reuse as many parts as you can to save money. Counter balancer sprockets and chain will need inspection. That's probably what chewed up the oil rail and probably also the noise you heard upon initial start up. Lifters can be disassembled for inspection. Do some searches on the site. There's heaps of good information worth studying. Plenty of hits on this thread, there's more than a few who want to see you get this bike back on the road. Take your time, stay focussed and don't get too far ahead of yourself. Here's an old thread you might find interesting. It's pretty involved. Bear in mind the equipment Ken has access to and his ability to make special needs tooling and his previous experience. Unfortunately the pics don't seem to have survived but you never know, they might magically reappear. Either way, it's a good read
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html

[Appowner]

This part is going to suck but, resist the urge to rush to get it done.  Every step needs to be rehearsed, maybe more than once to make sure you understand it and will do it correctly.  Not to mention making sure you've done everything required prior to the step you're on.

[Don D]

Agree 100% with deuced that a TC softail bottom end is not something to do first time in a home shop with limited tools even with the prospect of buying the tools. All the R&R of major components plus cleaning sure why not. Use the factory SM to assist with that.

[Adam76]

The thing I like best about HarleyTechTalk is the tech. There's a lot of people on this site who are very experienced and this would be a relatively easy job for many of them. Adam, please don't be offended but I don't think you should attempt this. It's just my opinion and is worth even less than what you pay for it. You said yourself you wouldn't be comfortable splitting the cases and I don't want to try to encourage you into something that might be out of your depth. Stick to your original plan of going 95" and redo the things you know how to do, but better. Get the front cylinder off and inspect the components. Get that cam chest apart and inspect the components. You mentioned changing the CR575 cams before they were even out. Why? What's wrong with them? Get the crankcase out of the frame and make some enquiries about who can split/inspect/refurbish that for you. Once the top end is off and the camchest is empty you need to remove the oil lines and remove the outer and inner primary cases before you can remove the bottom end from the frame. You'll need some special tools to remove/install the primary. You'll need a big torque wrench that will torque left handed. Just because a torque wrench has a reversible ratchet head doesn't mean it will actually torque in both directions. Is your service manual genuine HD? Don't just briefly look at it, take some time and read it. Then read it again. Oil tank and lines are not that difficult to remove. The factory clamps on the oil tank drain tube can be tricky. Oil tank can easily be scratched on the seat post during removal. There's lots of other little things. Twin Cam Softail bottom end is a bit complicated. You want to reuse as many parts as you can to save money. Counter balancer sprockets and chain will need inspection. That's probably what chewed up the oil rail and probably also the noise you heard upon initial start up. Lifters can be disassembled for inspection. Do some searches on the site. There's heaps of good information worth studying. Plenty of hits on this thread, there's more than a few who want to see you get this bike back on the road. Take your time, stay focussed and don't get too far ahead of yourself. Here's an old thread you might find interesting. It's pretty involved. Bear in mind the equipment Ken has access to and his ability to make special needs tooling and his previous experience. Unfortunately the pics don't seem to have survived but you never know, they might magically reappear. Either way, it's a good read
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html

Thanks deuced, to be honest I think we're on the same  page, and I'm not very comfortable doing the softail bottom end - especially with the counter balancers.
I really  appreciate your honesty and it may have saved me from even more potential problems.

Thanks for all your advice and help.

[Adam76]

Agree 100% with deuced that a TC softail bottom end is not something to do first time in a home shop with limited tools even with the prospect of buying the tools. All the R&R of major components plus cleaning sure why not. Use the factory SM to assist with that.

Thanks Don, I appreciate your advice. I agree and am not 100% confident of my ability to pull apart, clean and reassemble the softail bottom end.
I hope it's not too expensive to get done professionally.... things like that are very rare and very expensive this end of town.
Cheers

[Adam76]

Thanks guys.

I'm pulling the camchest and oil pump.

Are my new lifters susceptible to any kind of damage with the metal shavings that have honed through the motor?
Or are they ok to take out and re-use?
Will they need to be dismantled, cleaned and reassembled?
Thanks

[kd]

It's probably a good idea to disassemble and clean them.  Do the rollers too.  Then reassemble lubed and store until needed.  The lifters are a better filter than your filter.  One spec of contaminant and it can fail if over time it plugs up.

[-deuced-]

File pic, ignore the colours except for the grey.
You cannot see attachments on this board.

When you take the cam cover off, oil will come out. Place a pan under the area to catch that oil. I wrap a plastic bag around the frame under the cam cover so that the oil won't get into the cloth covering on the clutch cable and wiring in that area. It just drips off the plastic bag into the catch pan.

As you remove things make note of where they came from and how they were orientated. If reusable, it's good practice to put things back where they came from.

Lifters. First check the outside. Is the roller ok? Is the body ok? Is the pushrod cup ok? There's a circlip above the pushrod cup that holds everything in. Need to remove that circlip to remove the internals. Be careful not to distort the circlip. Wear eye protection in case the circlip goes flying. Make note of how the lifter components come out. Do you have an old lifter you can practice on? The circlip may be a different shape but the principle is the same.

Go to the home page and do a search for lifter disassembly. Might find some pics.

So, you've already got the other cylinder off? Pushrods and tubes removed?

Also I'm glad you didn't get that plug out from the bottom of the crankcase. Leave it there.

[-deuced-]

Don't try to remove the roller from the lifter. Inspect the surface of the roller, the area that rides on the cam lobe. The roller is a needle bearing, you can spray some brake clean though it as you turn it to clean it. Does it turn smoothly? Were these lifters new when you started this 95" project?

[-deuced-]

WD40 probably better, you're more likely to have that on hand and the little tube you stick in the nozzle will provide a jet stream.

[Adam76]

Don't try to remove the roller from the lifter. Inspect the surface of the roller, the area that rides on the cam lobe. The roller is a needle bearing, you can spray some brake clean though it as you turn it to clean it. Does it turn smoothly? Were these lifters new when you started this 95" project?

Thanks for all the info on the lifters - yes they were brand new fueling HP+ lifters.

[Adam76]

It's probably a good idea to disassemble and clean them.  Do the rollers too.  Then reassemble lubed and store until needed.  The lifters are a better filter than your filter.  One spec of contaminant and it can fail if over time it plugs up.

Thanks kd, appreciate your help.

I think I'm officially depressed.