SE-211 cams

[buffalobill]

I have afriend with SE-211 cams in a heritage 103 no headwork & loves them . I'm considering them in my 06 streetglide 95" no headwork. Any thoughts ?

[wfolarry]

A little headwork & that 95 will be driving right by that 103

[Tattoo]

I got great results with the 103" and Se211 cams. I posted the results in the dyno section.

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=125.0

[mayor]

211 need more compression than just flat top pistons will give you in a 95", so keep that in mind when determing what pistons you are going to need.   

[Scramjet]

That cam is perfect with the SE cast high compression piston and no headwork.  The wife 06 FLSTN Deluxe ended up with 91HP/94TQ using PCIII and cycle shack mufflers.  No deck check, stock head gasket and a quick tune.  I have said numerous time that this is a great budget build for 95" and no headwork.

Imagine what it could do if you tweeked it some.

B

[ameagle13]

My favorite build for someone who doesn't want to do any head work.  Here is an 06 FLHX like yours.
SE a/c, stock throttle/body w/ SE 4.89gms/sec injectors(don't have to have them but I like them on 06's), stock heads, 103ci, SE high compression forged pistons, Cometic .030 Head Gasket, SE 211 Cams, Rinehart Tru-duals, SERT tune.  I know this build is accurate b/c I built and tuned it.  You can't go wrong with this build if your coming from stock IMO.

Good Luck,
J

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[Don D]

Add some compression (about 10.5) and a little head work and this cam can work real well. Has a nice semi bad ass idle

[mayor]

My favorite build for someone who doesn't want to do any head work.  Here is an 06 FLHX like yours.
SE a/c, stock throttle/body w/ SE 4.89gms/sec injectors(don't have to have them but I like them on 06's), stock heads, 103ci, SE high compression forged pistons, Cometic .030 Head Gasket, SE 211 Cams, Rinehart Tru-duals, SERT tune.  I know this build is accurate b/c I built and tuned it.  You can't go wrong with this build if your coming from stock IMO.

Good Luck,
J

AE, are you sure that's in an '06 and not an '07?  the '06 are still the 88" with the big bore being a 95".  or did you stroke the engine as well? 

[mayor]

I would think that the 251's would give a broader more usable torque curve than the 211's (in a 95") and they are OK to use in '06 and up heads. 

[ameagle13]

Good catch wanna.  The bike IS an 07 not an 06.  Still a great build.

Good Luck,
J

[blk-betty]

Last bike, 02 FXST, started as a low budget 95" build.  Stock un-touched 02 heads, 0.030" Cometics, SE 211s, SE High Comp forged pistons, SE air filter/backing plate with CV 40 and V&H Straightshots.  CR was somewhere around 9.6-9.7:1.  Made 99tq and 88hp with the crappy exhaust on an older DJ 150.  Was a little soft on the bottom (dyno showed bad tq dip in the sweet spot) but ran real nice above 3K rpm.

Eventually ended up with a full HQ 10.5:1 build but for a low budget build the 211s can work well, especailly if you get the CR up to or above 10:1.

[Clintster]

I ran 211's in my flat top 95 with stock heads.  It had a TB and True duals, was tuned well, it was soft on the bottom.  Later ran them with my high compression heads and pop ups man woke it up.  It was a good cam for me, because I did my build in stages.  Later got the bike funds up and upgraded to the porters cams and gear drive.  They have nice exhaust note, more so with the compression.

[buffalobill]

I had a 2000 dyna 95" with headwork , andrews tw55 cams ' had a terrible problem with pinping don,t want the same problem with the se211,s. just want torque

[mayor]

more torque huh, then I agree with this guy-   

I would think that the 251's would give a broader more usable torque curve than the 211's (in a 95") and they are OK to use in '06 and up heads. 

 
if your on the cheap -251's with hi-comps or if your budget allows I would listen to this guy:

A little headwork & that 95 will be driving right by that 103

although if head work is an option, then I would switch cams to a slightly smaller one too. 

[FLTRI]

As a tuner I have always been impressed by how well the 211 cams work in a budget build: No compression increase and no head work. Sound like a nasty build at idle with good mid torque/hp.

Will they work better with head work and more compression? Of course. 95" dome tops = 100/100. Not bad for no head work, and more with head work.

[skyhook]

what ameagle described is the build of choice at our local dealer...good power, can run on 87 octane, low comp with no ping even at sea level, 100* F and 60% humidity in parade duty...not many builds can do that!

first big twin buld I had was 05 flhr, SEp heads,  se spec head gaskets, stock pistons, slip-ons, pc3, 211 cam...needed more comp for the lowrange, but pulled great through the midrange

[Vosselman]

dealer build:
02 fxdx, stock heads, 95ci with 8cc se/arias pistons, se211, supertrapp supermegs


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[ameagle13]

If I did the build with a 251 instead of the 211 I would change the springs.

Good Luck,
J

[skyhook]

guy named phil is the performance tech at new orleans h-d...got into debate with him few weeks ago...he claims 211 makes more power than 251 in '07 and later 103...I said bull, but also asked the question here...one of our member head porters said he agrees that the stock '06 and later heads respond better to 211s, due to the shape and flow ratio of ports...now the main premise of phil's argument is keeping corrected comp in the low nines, so I ain't sayin' 251 won't pull better at 9.5 corrected...also he likes t-header, not duals (this is not a dig at ameagle!)

[Flat Dog]

If I did the build with a 251 instead of the 211 I would change the springs.

Good Luck,
J

Are the pre 07 heads/springs that much different than the current ones? Just wondering.

I have the 251s with stock heads (08), and they are noisy buggers, but the torque curve is sweet and ready to use on demand. I have heard no complaints at all about the 211 cams either.

[mayor]

maybe I'm a little of base here, but I think many of you are talking about the 211's in a 103" when the original poster is talking about a 95".  I wouldn't disagree that the 211's will make more power in a 95" (if we're talking HP) than the 251's, but the torque curve is towards the right end of the scale compared to the 251's (which will make the 211's take a little longer to spool up- i.e. have an early flat feel which I wouldn't think is very desirable for an 800# bike  ). 

I also think either cam is going to need more compression than flat tops will provide in a 95".  The '05 and up heads have beehive springs which are fine with the higher lift of the 251's (although the '05 heads had the old style ports). 

[Don D]

"but the torque curve is towards the right end of the scale compared to the 251's"

Why?

In the 95 a small dome (SE Forged) and head milling will put this in the perfect range, then just mild headwork to optimize.

[Scramjet]

The SE cast high compression pistons will get you to the right compression.  I know as I have done it.  Look at my signature.

CCP with the stock head gasket will get you to 185 psi.

I would use a Cometic .040 or SE .045" to bump it up to just a bit to around 190 psi.

B

[Don D]

The SE cast high compression pistons will get you to the right compression.  I know as I have done it.  Look at my signature.

One more way to get to the same end, I prefer the lower dome for flame propagation reasons and less chance of detonation. Certainly easier to not mill the heads

[mayor]

"but the torque curve is towards the right end of the scale compared to the 251's"

Why?

In the 95 a small dome (SE Forged) and head milling will put this in the perfect range, then just mild headwork to optimize.

good question, we'll see if I can make a compelling argument why I believe this.  Keep in mind I only said to towards the right compared- which is not the same as only on the right.    I'm not trying to suggest that the 211's aren't a good cam or that economical builds can't be created with them.  I'm only saying for a 95" in a bagger I think the 251's would be a little better.  This is why I think that the 211's peak torque is towards the right of the 251's-


Now I admit that there are many things relative to a cam that determines peak torque and torque curve and by no means am I an expert or even qualified to state a scientific opinion about this for that matter.    In this case I base what I said on simple math.  Please let me know if I'm looking at this wrong.  Keep in mind I'm saying this considering all other components being equal (although the other components can affect each differently). 

1. intake closes are similar (45 degree compared to 46 degree), so compression operating range is similar. 
2. the 251's have a shorter duration which moves the curve to the left of the 211's-
3. the 211's have a greater overlap which tends to carry the torque out further (HP)- good if you're looking for peak numbers- not so good if your looking for early torque
4. the 251's have a higher lift which tends to help make the cam appear bigger= broader curve?

IMO cams are always a compromise.  No one cam can do it all- I.E. pull early and pull late.  The efficient operating range created by the cam is still limited to a section of the typical operating rpm's of the motor.  The cam typically controls where that range is (although factors like compression, head work, pipes etc. affect this as well, but like I said for this application let's assume that the only difference is the cam).   Personally, I think what happens too frequently is people get wrapped up into peak numbers, so they jack up the compression to account for lack of efficiency in the lower rpm's when using big cams (which is relative to engine size- i.e. 211's in a 95" are bigger than 211's in a 103") eventhough most riders rarely see north of 5k and up regularly (especially in a bagger).    

[FLTRI]

Just can't beat the nasty, bad AZZ idle sound of a 211. 251s work fine, just don't have that hotrod cam sound at idle.

[Don D]

They are very close actually but by virtue of the 101 LC on the intake (211) this increases the overlap not just the duration. The LSA goes down 1 notch and this becomes a cam that has the potential to cover both bases better IMO. My own 251 2002 carb motor I built made awesome power but was slow revving, the heads were T-Man CNC, Top Shelf.
When I was doing top ends a lot the 211 impressed me because it seemed to come close to doing it all. The 251 and 257 builds at similar compression had virtues too, of course the ultimate result is the combination "sum" of the parts.

[hotbo]

The SE cast high compression pistons will get you to the right compression.  I know as I have done it.  Look at my signature.

One more way to get to the same end, I prefer the lower dome for flame propagation reasons and less chance of detonation. Certainly easier to not mill the heads

don even with the small dome wouldnt you better to run the flat tops and mill the hell outta the heads for better flame travel????maybe not just asking?

if you run flat tops how much would you have to mill in general to get 10.5 or in the ball park.

[mayor]

if you run flat tops how much would you have to mill in general to get 10.5 or in the ball park.

not a head porter, but my guess is somewhere near the first fin.      +/-.075"? 

[mayor]

In the 95 a small dome (SE Forged) and head milling will put this in the perfect range, then just mild headwork to optimize.

how much smaller of dome is the SE forged?  I thought PHR (and John Sachs earlier) measured the forged to be around 8cc.  What volume are the hi-comp cast?

[machinist]

wanabe,
If you started with fairly small chambers and mill .050" off you might get to 78cc, for example.
With flat tops and .030" gaskets you get about 10:1.

[mayor]

yea, but the question Travis had was how much to get to 10.5:1.  I would have to think that 10.5:1 is stretching past the limits of a flat top piston in a 95".   

[Don D]

Right which is why I suggested the 9.5/1 advertised forged $249 HD pistons and a lighter mill. Nothing wrong with the heavy mill too but for the average assembler it would piss them off with the mods to get everything to fit properly, so cutting edge is bleeding at that point. The small dome piston and heads milled works and duplicates the SE Pro heads with a small dome which also works well with the SE211

[buffalobill]

I guess i opened a can of worms. My thoughts began after reading article on Joe Minton build then talking to local HD . We have very limited resorces here in WY. Like I said before not interested in peak # bike will probably never be dinoed . Just want good  seat of the pants, no ping, ( I dont lug it ) & reliable. I enjoy reading all posts  thanks

[mayor]

I guess i opened a can of worms. My thoughts began after reading article on Joe Minton build then talking to local HD . We have very limited resorces here in WY. Like I said before not interested in peak # bike will probably never be dinoed . Just want good  seat of the pants, no ping, ( I dont lug it ) & reliable. I enjoy reading all posts  thanks

well why didn't you say so.  Big bore, Andrew 26's and SE flat top's should make you pretty happy.   

[Faast Ed]

I guess i opened a can of worms. My thoughts began after reading article on Joe Minton build then talking to local HD . We have very limited resorces here in WY. Like I said before not interested in peak # bike will probably never be dinoed . Just want good  seat of the pants, no ping, ( I dont lug it ) & reliable. I enjoy reading all posts  thanks

203's, 204's, 37's,..... all fit that bill, they'll even give you some fun on top along with the low end grunt.  Dyno queens? No, but plenty of fun to ride.

[Faast Ed]

BTW: The 204's have the racy sound too. When I had them on the last bike, I heard comments every time I went out about how sweet it sounded.
Many thought that I had much more motor than I did.

[FLTRI]

"I have a friend with SE-211 cams in a heritage 103 no headwork & loves them . I'm considering them in my 06 streetglide 95" no headwork. Any thoughts?"

Again, the 211 is a great cam with or without compression or headwork. Go with what your bud has and you can keep it simple and use HD parts, which work just fine.

NOTE: 203-204s will be definitely better down low, but if you are a hotrodder the 211 cams are definitely the choice, IMO

NOTE: If yours is EFI you will need to get it dyno tuned as the 211s are unlike any other cam HD has, so none of the canned downloads will be close. If it is carbed no worries for tuning.

[skyhook]

this is an unusual thread...I'm waiting for the naysayers to chime in claiming all screamin' eagle stuff is crap...what has the world come to?

[FLTRI]

"IMO a 95" build with flat tops coupled up with SE 211 cams & stock heads is gonna make a slug."

One would assume that but for whatever reason, that is not the case. Just ask anyone who has put 211s in an otherwise stock engine. They will verify it is not a slug.
When I worked for the MOCO (98-03) we did prolly 2-3 a week with every one a happy camper, especially dyna and softail owners. No detonation, great midrange power, and killer idle sound.

[Clintster]

If I remember I was around 90 #, with a TB and Rhineharts and a DFO.  Stock everything else 95, stock heads, flat tops and bb juggs out of the box.  Felt like a little bigger motor on the lower end, when it hit it's powerband, 3k and up it would pull to 6200.  Header may have helped lower end.  Everybody said don't do it to a bagger, but I sure enjoyed it.

[skyhook]

like I said before...my first big twin build was 05 flhr, 88", SEp heads, 211 cam, slip-ons...I thought it kicked azz until I rode my friend's vtx1800...then I NEEDED a 103 lol

[Tattoo]

I have also found that the SE211 cams work well with the 3.37 gear ratio..

[mayor]

"IMO a 95" build with flat tops coupled up with SE 211 cams & stock heads is gonna make a slug."

One would assume that but for whatever reason, that is not the case. Just ask anyone who has put 211s in an otherwise stock engine. They will verify it is not a slug.
When I worked for the MOCO (98-03) we did prolly 2-3 a week with every one a happy camper, especially dyna and softail owners. No detonation, great midrange power, and killer idle sound.

Bob, the dealership you worked in used 211's with flat tops and stock head chambers? did they use stock head gaskets as well?    why?  The 211's with increased compression is one thing, but at sub 8.4 corrected?  I can't help but think that would be soft on the bottom. it might feel like it pulls strong once it gets going, but maybe that's because it's starting so weak.  (lol)

I did some searching on the old site and found this:
http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/dynoruns.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=835884&LastModified=4675558253316637730

here's the charts that was posted on that thread (these are not my sheets, just re-posting of the sheets from that thread):
1550, stock heads and flat tops:


1550, stock heads and hi-comps pistons:


Just posting peak numbers don't tell the whole story.  Those charts have similar peak numbers, but I'll bet they aren't similar rides.    now, let me ask- which of the two would you want in a bagger?

[hotbo]

if you run flat tops how much would you have to mill in general to get 10.5 or in the ball park.

not a head porter, but my guess is somewhere near the first fin.      +/-.075"? 

thanks mayor that cleared that up :up:never been around the 211s but from what you guys say they are good ones with some compress.

[Don D]

It doesn't help to discuss the cam out of context of a build or taking a worse case and comparing with other builds that are optimized.
According to the Wild things literature and website you can bolt in the TC2 also into a stock motor. Of course it works but as we all know that is not optimized either and would be soft in low rpm range.
I have worked at a dealer too and the 251 was bolted into stockers and it was a slug down low. All of this is predictable, just do the math as mayor has done.

[mayor]

yep I agree with everything you just said Don. Optimized is the key word.     part of that is running the cam (any cam) in a compression range that is suitable based on that cam's intake close. 

[hotbo]

well put guys. 

[slo-poke 03]

Having read all this I know we are talking about a 95ci, but there was alot of good info thrown out here. I was thinking of using the 251s in my 07 bagger with 103 FTs, stock heads but now I am wondering if the consensus is the 211s would be better in that combo. would it have enough compression? that 1 posted dyno looked like the torque came on fairly soon.

[mayor]

I would think either is going to work pretty good in a 103".  Keep in mind the larger the engine the smaller the cam acts.  There's a couple or so real good 103" SE251 builds in the dyno section (generally good for around 100/100 with stock '06 and up heads with the right supporting cast).  In the 103", flat tops have more compression.     If the head chambers are around 85cc, you would be somewhere around 10:1 static with .030" head gaskets. 
here's two 103" SE251 builds to check out:
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=928.0

http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=697.0

[FLTRI]

Wannabemayor, and all,
A couple points here:
1) That dip in your example looks more like a tuning issue. We are only seeing 1 cylinder AFR (probably front), which was probably used to make same changes to the rear cylinder as well.

2) When using tru-duals on a bagger the rear cylinder will be significantly out of tune, especially under 3000rpm. This is due to the unique rear cylinder tuning necessary to compensate for the "Y" pipe configuration.

3) The high compression comparison graph you offer appears to have the signature bagger D&D Fatcat 2into1 3000-3500rpm dip, negating a good comparison.

4) The SE211 cams are a midrange+ cam profile so low end torque is not expected to be great.

5) We always offered the SE203-204 in lieu of SE211s but once folks heard the 211s on their buddies bike compared to the 203-4s they opted for the 211s, and were happy with results.

6) We never recommended these cams with tru-duals as that makes it a double downer for low end power. Most all were with the stock "Y" pipe 2into1 and quality slipons, modified Thunderheaders, modified Propipes, or Supermegs with 10-12 discs w/closed end caps.

7) SE251s do not have the same idle sound as the 211s so did no stock compression 251s.

There is no argument that increasing compression wakes these cams up down low. And some customers came back later, when they had the money to increase compression, which put smile on their face....again.

I'm not defending 211s for 88"-95" low compression, heavy bike applications, but once some customer heard a bike with 211s, that's what he/she wanted.

I'm just reporting my experience as a tuner who also worked for the MOCO and dealt with customers and their likes/dislikes and can say I never had a customer complain about 211 cams with flatheads.

[mayor]

Bob, I agree with all of your points.  Keep in mind my opinion was just that- my opinion.  I wasn't trying to discount your opinion or your experience.  Believe me, your feedback is greetly appreciated.   Those two charts I posted just happened to be in the same thread on the old site, and I would agree that that comparison is not overly scientific.  I think there were only 5 or 6 cams available for the TC from the SE catalog when you was at the dealer based on the years you were there (not that there are a huge amount now), so that could explain the customers making the jump from SE203-204 to SE211's.  The point I was trying to make about the 211's was, if it's a new 95" build and piston's haven't been ordered yet- go with the hi-comps. 

[FLTRI]

Wanna,
"....if it's a new 95" build and piston's haven't been ordered yet- go with the hi-comps."
Good point! As I recall most of the 211s went into 88" motors and we were skitish in the early days with dome tops in heavy bikes with possible detonation and we really didn't have a good handle on how these cams with domes would work with loaded touring bikes. Remember all we had to begine with was downloads that didn't work very well and PowerCommanders that restricted the amount of retard (10deg) we could get.
Bob
PS - Thanks for the vote of confidence.