setting the CLB in TTS question

[strokerjlk]

This, and the other thread, confirms my suspicions that there is way too much going on to be able to simply 'change' the start of injector timing.  Doc was, indeed, correct.

08-09 TBW bikes have been "orphaned" as far as starter maps.  I don't see Steve taking the time to develop new base maps for these years, as the newer bikes have the different O2s and placement.

Once it gets a little cooler, I think I am going to play around and load all the maps that are close for 54s and SEE which one has the best idle quality BEFORE v-tuning.  Then v-tune that and see the results.  To me?  From recent threads... It appears that idle and low speed has more of a direct correlation to the starter map than WOT, WOT being more 'tuneable' over a wider range of base maps... idle and low speed is more dependent on the base map.

John
while I enjoy you experiments,remember this FWIW.  when you load diff maps and look , listen ..whatever it is your going to do to quantify a better idle quality ,between maps.  the idle kpa will vary and so will the ve's at those kpa areas. timing will also vary somewhat from map to map.
guess you could leave them in closed loop and make a determination based on them all being closed loop
you really think all the 08-09 Cal's are derived from actual bike's   

[hrdtail78]

While loading different maps I would atleast record one run and generate a tune. This wI'lli tell you how far your ve's are off and what running kpa is.  Always smart to record data in known trouble areas before wasting time trying to get as many cell as you can.

[wurk_truk]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

[Steve Cole]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

Believe it or not we have already had E85 here for sometime. While it's not wide spread here we do have it. Our fuel has had up to 10% blend for the past 5 years everywhere here. E85 just takes it to 15% blend. EGR is the largest thing that is causing what you are seeing and it's not just a simple thing to adjust for. So where does EGR come from? Your head work, camshaft, intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust style and exhaust components. So how many various combination's of these parts are out there? How many are we supposed to get in and tune for? EGR's largest effect is at low engine speeds and light load areas................ sound familiar?

[rbabos]

While loading different maps I would atleast record one run and generate a tune. This wI'lli tell you how far your ve's are off and what running kpa is.  Always smart to record data in known trouble areas before wasting time trying to get as many cell as you can.

Agree. First experimental on a new cal vtune run said go for it, but had to drop the ci to get the ve's into the 70s. Next two runs were good, as in nice and even between cyls. First time I've seen that, and will continue with this cal next spring and see if I can nail this one.
Ron

[FBRR]

The only thing I will add here is E85 is not 15% it is 85%!! E15 will be the new 15% Ethanol!!

[BVHOG]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

Still hooked up together? I suspect a much simpler explanation for the SE stuff.

[hrdtail78]

Mayor,

Get your FBW fixed?  How the rest of your tune go?

[rbabos]

On an existing tune at present, can the ecm adjust for E15, or is it right on the edge and a new tune needed anyway?
Ron

[mayor]

yep, all fixed.  Apparently the connection to the TB is kinda important now.     I think the tune went well.  The bike is running very good-  the acceleration is smooth, and the cruising is smooth...no matter what rpm or throttle range.  I just ordered one of these from Amazon:

.... for my next batch of v-tuning (which could happen in a few weeks weather permitting).  I ordered a set of 48 cams...so the first tuning was just a practice run.    I'm hoping that being able to see the cells will allow me to shorten up my v-tuning time, and allow me to get a better tune (since I can work on trouble spots). 

I understand somewhat on the VE blending for v-tune tuning, but how do you guys tune the wide open on the dyno?  do you just adjust the ve tables to get your sniffers to read right? 


I set my clb's at 781, is that ok for 10%corn oil?  if I am interpretting correct, that clb will give me about a 98% stoich reading...no matter what stoich is....is that right? 

[hrdtail78]

I set all high throttle to 13.5 in the AFR table.  Calibrate VE's to hit target.  Now the ECM knows how much air is moving.  So any target that is called out in the AFR table should be hit.

[Steve Cole]

The only thing I will add here is E85 is not 15% it is 85%!! E15 will be the new 15% Ethanol!!

I have heard it said both ways and I do not know which is correct. E15 makes more sense as the amount of Ethanol though. What I can say is CA fuel has been a blend of 10% for over 5 years now and it's going to 15% blend in the near future. Just be glad you guys do not have to run the junk we have. All the TTS calibrations we have done for the 2007 and up bikes has been done on a 10% blend fuel. The best fuel grade we can buy at the pump today is 91 octane and that is slated to drop to 89 or 90 octane next year! As for having a bike tuned on gasoline without Ethanol blend then switching to a 15 % blend your going to need to retune and touch up the spark tables. If your really going to 85% Ethanol blend it's time to start over.

Mayor

721 clb is fine for your setup with or without the new cam.

[wolf_59]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28618.0.html
Mayor here is a good thread  on stoich values for setting your clb's for your fuel type

[mayor]

thanks Wolf.  I read through that this morning, and that's how I figured I was alright...but figured I'd ask anyway.   

[Don D]

Mayor nice car, let us know how it does on those backroads

[mayor]

Mayor nice car, let us know how it does on those backroads

  I wish that was what I ordered.  More like the thing displaying it.   

[wurk_truk]

E85 is almost pure ethanol.  85%. (Corn Belt thing for sure). E10 is available now and sold by most second tier gas stations.  E15 will be 15% and will ruin older cars hoses, etc., but will be offered soon.  Only Tier One gas stations (google that) offer no corn gasoline.  The only Tier One in my area is Shell.  But...........  Shell isn't everywhere I ride.  I wish to use my closed loop in the near future, and get it all straightened out to run E10.  No more Tier One for me.

Shell is 93 here, but corn oil 10 runs 92 or 91 in the Midwest.

E85 is kinda rare and those flex fuel cars use it, I guess.  I have never used it personally.  Grocery Stores sell E85 instead of Diesel in that third underground tank.  Wasn't enough demand for Diesel for them I guess with their points and cards, etc.  REAL men don't buy groceries.  HAHAHA

[wurk_truk]

Damn Shell gas is dangerous anyways.

Cars I used to have before... while I ran corn oil.



Nice car after running Shell Gas.



HAHAHA

[mayor]

well, it was probably easier to change tires that way.   

[Jeffd]

damn there are easier ways to get the change out of the seats.

[hotroadking]

well changing the oil filters gonna be easy on that gold one now....

[wurk_truk]

That Z06 was a hoot to drive up at the Autobahn CC, near Chicago.