setting the CLB in TTS question

[mayor]

so I'm reading the V-tune Process w/out a Dyno Ver 2 document, in anticaption of being TTS programmer latter this week, when I came onto this:

I'm wondering what I would want my CLB set too?     and how would I know that?    I'm thinking I would like my cruise afr to be around 14.2, so would I put in 803 mv?  the document suggest limiting to 780 mv, would I read that as 14.43 afr?

what do typical CLB tables look like?   

[hrdtail78]

The richest I go is 778, but usually set to 756 or 765.  Don't remember what it is one decrement down from 778.  Play with that chart you will see 780 isn't possible.  I haven't really heard of too much mpg difference with this, but have taken care of some of the heat issues.  +100 heat index is common here in summer.

[mayor]

would I set the 80-100 map cells to 778 and the others to say 756? 

[hrdtail78]

I usually set the same across board. On some builds the lower kpa is leaner for idle purposes.  Warm up enrichment can play up to 320 degrees. 

Remember at 100 kpa you are not in closed loop, but at 80 you are.  It is my understanding that if you are cruising at let's say 65 kpa. The ECM is also looking at the 80 column also, and it influences a percentage.  That's why there a 100kpa in a closed loop bias table.   Don't know if that is explained clearly.  I'm sure somebody else will chime in.

[Steve Cole]

It all depends on what you think you want. Many people have been led to believe that it is necessary to run at richer than necessary ratio's for a good running bike and that is simply not true. At low load, light throttle and cruise I find 14.6 - 14.5 is just fine. As the engine load goes higher and RPM climbs I like to head towards a 13.0 ratio at full load. So you can transition between the two ratio's at a rate that you like. Due to the air cooled motor I like to see the idle area set about 14.4 - 14.3. I also use the EITMS ON, as this takes over fuel control as the engine get too hot and richens the mixture to help control heat. This gives you the big advantage of a leaner mixture when the temperature is down but the richer mixture if the temperatures start to run too high. I run this same configuration on 120 or 96 motors and it works fine.

Look under the "Tools" menu in Mastertune and it will give you a conversion chart for O2 voltages.

[mayor]

thanks to a fast shipment from hrdtail, I could be performing the marriage ceremony as early as tonight.   

I hope to at least download the new map tonight so I can install my open element AC, but I might wait until the weekend to do any V-tuning. 

When I start to V-tune, I think I'll just set everything at 778 for now.   

[rbabos]

thanks to a fast shipment from hrdtail, I could be performing the marriage ceremony as early as tonight.   

I hope to at least download the new map tonight so I can install my open element AC, but I might wait until the weekend to do any V-tuning. 

When I start to V-tune, I think I'll just set everything at 778 for now.   

739 myself. I've often wondered what the deal was with these multiple cbls in the tables. Nobody seems to use them since they are quite lean. Some maps I've viewed the tuner left them in canned state and altered the afr table to throw more fuel in where needed. Is this set up for an epa tune , Steve? In some warped way the canned cbl tables would be more calibration friendly but don't have the balls to try it.
Ron

[Blackbaggr]

When are the 26s/48s goin' in ? 

[mayor]

well I failed miserably in my first attempt to link up to the ecm.  I'm having issues with my com port.     I left my cd drive at work, so I'll have to see if I can hook up tomorrow. I tried downloading the driver, but that didn't seem to go well either. 


Bill, still leaning towards 26's...

[TXChop]

I have had some com port issues as well. I use a serial cable i got from Jd's/tts and hook the bike up than start the program. Has worked every time since.

[strokerjlk]

It all depends on what you think you want. Many people have been led to believe that it is necessary to run at richer than necessary ratio's for a good running bike and that is simply not true. At low load, light throttle and cruise I find 14.6 - 14.5 is just fine. As the engine load goes higher and RPM climbs I like to head towards a 13.0 ratio at full load. So you can transition between the two ratio's at a rate that you like. Due to the air cooled motor I like to see the idle area set about 14.4 - 14.3. I also use the EITMS ON, as this takes over fuel control as the engine get too hot and richens the mixture to help control heat. This gives you the big advantage of a leaner mixture when the temperature is down but the richer mixture if the temperatures start to run too high. I run this same configuration on 120 or 96 motors and it works fine.Look under the "Tools" menu in Mastertune and it will give you a conversion chart for O2 voltages.

got a 120 map that works fine? put it in a mastertune update. SE cams will be fine.

[trannyman]

It all depends on what you think you want. Many people have been led to believe that it is necessary to run at richer than necessary ratio's for a good running bike and that is simply not true. At low load, light throttle and cruise I find 14.6 - 14.5 is just fine. As the engine load goes higher and RPM climbs I like to head towards a 13.0 ratio at full load. So you can transition between the two ratio's at a rate that you like. Due to the air cooled motor I like to see the idle area set about 14.4 - 14.3. I also use the EITMS ON, as this takes over fuel control as the engine get too hot and richens the mixture to help control heat. This gives you the big advantage of a leaner mixture when the temperature is down but the richer mixture if the temperatures start to run too high. I run this same configuration on 120 or 96 motors and it works fine.Look under the "Tools" menu in Mastertune and it will give you a conversion chart for O2 voltages.

got a 120 map that works fine? put it in a mastertune update. SE cams will be fine.

I would like to see some other cals. too, other than SE cams.

[hrdtail78]

What does this have to do with the OP?  Does this crap have to be hashed out every thread.  Seems Mayor is asking about CBL's for his build.  Not what everybody else wants.  Something to keep in mind.

[trannyman]

What does this have to do with the OP?  Does this crap have to be hashed out every thread.  Seems Mayor is asking about CBL's for his build.  Not what everybody else wants.  Something to keep in mind.

Your right, got off track. 

[mayor]

I loaded up the USB driver from the disc to my lap top, and I'm still having connection issues.  I haven't been able to find the com port screen that the help menu shows, but it looks like it should be connecting based on this:

that was com port 24, but I changed it to 2 since the help file said that the TTs software is limited to 16.  I need help....

[strokerjlk]

What does this have to do with the OP?  Does this crap have to be hashed out every thread.  Seems Mayor is asking about CBL's for his build.  Not what everybody else wants.  Something to keep in mind.

the claim was......I run this same configuration on 120 or 96 motors and it works fine.
still talking CLB cals. since the claim was, it has been used on 120 ci. why not share it for all to use.

Mayor
try using com port 4 or 5.

[mayor]

I think it showed all my ports being used, but 2?  I was using my work laptop, so I'll ask my IT group at work to look into it.   

[strokerjlk]

I think it showed all my ports being used, but 2?  I was using my work laptop, so I'll ask my IT group at work to look into it.   

was it hooked to the ECM? if so what com ports were avaliable when you opened up the com port config. in the TTS software?

[strokerjlk]

one other thought comes to mind. what OS are you running? if it is a 64 bit system the driver wont load. needs to be 32 bit.

[Blackbaggr]

Mayor...I've heard that the brand of cable can make a difference when it comes to connectivity. I'm using BELKIN...which was supplied with my TTS (at an extra cost).
Mine hooks up to com port 4 if I recall correctly. Good luck.

[mayor]

was it hooked to the ECM? if so what com ports were avaliable when you opened up the com port config. in the TTS software?

I had everything hooked up physically, but I dcouldn't find the "select the com port table".  I don't even know where to find this drop down table:

where do I find that drop down table?  is that in the TTS software? 

I'm using XP.  I'm not smart enough to know if it's 32 bit or 64.     I'm going to ask my IT group at work.  Luckily, the IT manager is a HD guy....

Bill, the one I bought is from TTS. 

[mayor]

ok, I'm making some progress.  I found this:

It's not like it's labled com port or anything.    I'm going to try connecting again around lunch time.   

[strokerjlk]

there ya go. if one doesn't work try another until one connects

[mayor]

thanks Jim.  I should know in about a couple of hours.   

[Steve Cole]

Mayor

Open Mastertune, Then go to "Help", "Contents" then click on the Search tab in the top leftside. Enter USB into the search box then click on the "List Topics" button. Just below that several selections will come up. Double click on "Configuring the USB Driver" and all the directions will be on the rightside of the screen.

As for the comment about what OS your running it does not matter as long as you select the proper driver as all TTS programs works with 32 or 64 bit systems just fine. Some people just do not know what they are talking about.

[mayor]

well, the wedding proceedings went through with no issues.  I just needed to tell the groom, where to find the bride.  My computer saved my com port selection from last night (com 2), so I was able to select the com 2 port as the portal...and everything went smooth from there. I could have done this last night....if I would have realized where to select the com port in th esoftware.     I saved my factory settings, and downloaded the new map to account for the mufflers and AC I added.  I rode the bike back to work, and it didn't hiccup or anything....so I must have done something right.   


does it affect the V-tune to do it in lower temperatures....say 40's-50'sF?

[Steve Cole]

No not really. There is temperature correction in the ECM from the factory.

[mayor]

thanks Steve.  That's good to hear, since our warmer days seem to be behind us for this season. 

[Steve Cole]

Just put on a bigger coat and at least the top half stays warm. You need anything else just give us a call.

[rbabos]

No not really. There is temperature correction in the ECM from the factory.
[/quote
Steve. Cold enough and the tune will reflect the extra drag from thicker oils in the engine and trans and drag from the thicker air temp just pushing the bike through it. I can tell you my bike don't run the same at a 60 degree temp drop as when it was tuned. Getting the head temp up is a feat in itself when it's that cold. Personally I'd try and stay within 20 degrees of what you normally drive in for tuning purposes. Your results may vary, but compensation ain't all that exacting from my experience since I tuned in the heat of the summer and it runs different now that it's colder up here.
Ron

[Dennis The Menace]

I've never seen much change in running due to temps.  100 degrees in summer, down to 7 degrees in winter, same tune, no difference really.  That is a 93 degree temp spread.  At altitude, of course.

Idling on a very hot day is another story (as it could be in the cold too, if the engine gets too hot).

But, this was without a TTS.  But, Steve answered that question already.

Dennis

[wurk_truk]

I still use serial cable instead of USB.  Never a big issue to get those going.  If you have a serial ported Laptop, try that.  Of course...  I still use XP on all laptops, too.

[mayor]

I still use serial cable instead of USB.  Never a big issue to get those going.  If you have a serial ported Laptop, try that.  Of course...  I still use XP on all laptops, too.

no worries...the nut behind the key board was loose.    I've since been able to connect, and have already done one v-tune run.   

[Steve Cole]

Thicker oil and cooler engine will all be reflected in the load on the engine. So what you will see is a change in the throttle position and the kPa. With those at a new position the ECM will adjust just as it should without issue provided those point have been previously calibrated. This is why when running Vtune it is important to get as many cells as you can filled in. For cold starting and the warmup part of it you may need to make those adjustments manually in Mastertune if necessary, but that's why those adjustments are there.

[FLTRI]

....Cold enough and the tune will reflect the extra drag from thicker oils in the engine and trans and drag from the thicker air temp just pushing the bike through it. I can tell you my bike don't run the same at a 60 degree temp drop as when it was tuned. Getting the head temp up is a feat in itself when it's that cold. Personally I'd try and stay within 20 degrees of what you normally drive in for tuning purposes. Your results may vary, but compensation ain't all that exacting from my experience since I tuned in the heat of the summer and it runs different now that it's colder up here.
Ron

This running issue is normally due to VE's too far out of calibration OR a bad/incorrect reading sensor(s) which will produce varying running quality.

For example, if the VE's in the lower tp/rpm are far enough out of actual, when temps and pressure changes occur, the system simply cannot compensate enough to keep things running well.

Ron, gotta say IMO/IME you seem to have way too many running variables to be tuned/calibrated correctly.

As I have mentioned to you, the data you sent me to look at is not a complete tune. If that data is what you solely used for v-tune, its not a big surprise run quality changes as conditions change.

Always willing to help and have asked you to call me to discuss and understand your run quality issues...to no avail,
Bob
PS - With some exhaust/intake/cam profile the tuner must understand what is going on and figure how to ignore and properly use v-tune data.
V-tune can only work when it sees "real" O2 data, unmolested by engine breathing anomalies.

[Blackbaggr]

So Mayor...did the butt dyno tell the difference from the base calibration to the refined version after V-tune ? 

[rbabos]

....Cold enough and the tune will reflect the extra drag from thicker oils in the engine and trans and drag from the thicker air temp just pushing the bike through it. I can tell you my bike don't run the same at a 60 degree temp drop as when it was tuned. Getting the head temp up is a feat in itself when it's that cold. Personally I'd try and stay within 20 degrees of what you normally drive in for tuning purposes. Your results may vary, but compensation ain't all that exacting from my experience since I tuned in the heat of the summer and it runs different now that it's colder up here.
Ron

This running issue is normally due to VE's too far out of calibration OR a bad/incorrect reading sensor(s) which will produce varying running quality.

For example, if the VE's in the lower tp/rpm are far enough out of actual, when temps and pressure changes occur, the system simply cannot compensate enough to keep things running well.

Ron, gotta say IMO/IME you seem to have way too many running variables to be tuned/calibrated correctly.

As I have mentioned to you, the data you sent me to look at is not a complete tune. If that data is what you solely used for v-tune, its not a big surprise run quality changes as conditions change.

Always willing to help and have asked you to call me to discuss and understand your run quality issues...to no avail,
Bob
PS - With some exhaust/intake/cam profile the tuner must understand what is going on and figure how to ignore and properly use v-tune data.
V-tune can only work when it sees "real" O2 data, unmolested by engine breathing anomalies.

Ageed with the ve's all fkd up. This is with the NI map. Recently tuned a PS cal and get this, the kpa's at all area were higher. Idle came in at 38 rather than 29-30 with the NI. This puts the light load areas that gave me problems with NI that wouldn't vtune in range now with the PC calibration since these areas were in the mid 30s. This cal also has a vtune spread between front and rear of only 6 at the most with many areas being equal, unlike the NI or NO ranging as much as 20+ in many areas. This will be the cal I will tweak a bit next spring, but for now I will finish with the existing calibration. Don't want to waste what remaining riding time I have left playing with the laptop at this stage.
Time don't stand still in my world, so I should have updated you so you can sleep better at night and not worry about my flakey tune. However if you want to ponder why the PS cal produces text book normal kpas and has ve numbers in the 70s, I'd like to hear the answer. Originally I ran the first vt at the same 130 ci as the NI, but the ve's were in the 60s. Dropped it to 120ci instead to give 70s average ve's. Tuned to the same timing as the NI that I edited for 91 octane.  It's looking like I could actually set this cal for the actual 113ci of my engine and it would still not come close to maxing. The one thing that stood out between the two cals is the PS makes the engine feel smoother, and the only explantion I have is more uniform fuel for each cyl. I will work this map more in the spring, but for now I'm all ears as to why this cal works well, and the intended one don't. No, my engine or O2 workings are not fkd, so pick another topic please.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

When the MAP sensor reads is built into the base cal. If you are reading abnormal kpa. Best thing to do is load different map and see if this fixes it. OR put a gauge on it with a resticter and see what it really is.  I remember this being discussed a couple months.

[mayor]

So Mayor...did the butt dyno tell the difference from the base calibration to the refined version after V-tune ? 

I don't know yet.    I wasn't too interested in trying it out the new generated map last night in the dark at 40 degrees, so waited until today to find out.  So far I only rode the bike 6 miles back to work after lunch.  I hope to do the second v-tune run tonight, so we'll see.  I noticed that my readings at 5k and up weren't quite long enough to get good readings....so tonight I need to see if I can really flog that thing     Here's last night's datamaster histogram:

looks like I'm hitting some of the higher up cells....just not enough.  ...last night was a learning experience, I'm going to try to do better tonight.  I didn't bang the rev limit last night....I will tonight though.   

so those purple boxes mean I maxed out the MAP in those cells? 

[Steve Cole]

You need to spend sometime in the 3000 and up range and it doesn't all need to be heavy throttle area. 5%- 40% area is the area I would worry about prior to the WOT areas. Most people run the bikes from 5-40% tps and 2000- 4500 RPM. The better you let that area get adjusted the ncer its going to ride.

The purple markers are to let you know that's as high as the data can be gotten from the ECM at a given RPM. You will find this occurs at less throttle the low the RPM is.

[rbabos]

When the MAP sensor reads is built into the base cal. If you are reading abnormal kpa. Best thing to do is load different map and see if this fixes it. OR put a gauge on it with a resticter and see what it really is.  I remember this being discussed a couple months.

Funny, nobody mentioned that calibration thing when a direct question was asked regarding my original problem with low kpa. Today it's common knowledge  . The PS176 was not even in the running as a calibration to use. The only way I discovered this was one day I decided to try a few quick loads and the first one that hand an idle I could work with  I'd pursue a vtune session with it. That's when I noticed the kind of kpa's everybody talks about. Thought something changed mechanically with the engine since I hadn't linked up for a while so threw the NI176 back in and checked the kpa and it was still it's normal low reading. I had to raise the iac points quite a bit to get a stable idle with the PC and from there the vtuning went quite well actually with practically even cylinder filling. Looks very promissing, but still have no idea why this cal could be more suitable than the ones that would normally be picked for this build.
Ron

[mayor]

You need to spend sometime in the 3000 and up range and it doesn't all need to be heavy throttle area. 5%- 40% area is the area I would worry about prior to the WOT areas. Most people run the bikes from 5-40% tps and 2000- 4500 RPM. The better you let that area get adjusted the ncer its going to ride.

The purple markers are to let you know that's as high as the data can be gotten from the ECM at a given RPM. You will find this occurs at less throttle the low the RPM is.

well, I think I did a little better tonight  :
 

how'd I do? 

[Steve Cole]

PM sent

[hotroadking]

unless you are running straight weight oil
wouldn't the 10W or 20W be the viscosity at
start up in the oil? 

Presuming the multi grade oil is doing it's job as
intended and you are not tuning in the Artic circle for runs
down the Ice Road all year the oil should perform it's
job as intended and not really be a big difference....

unless it's dyno oil LOL

[mayor]

I think I'm slowly improving my data collection with each run.  Here's the third datamaster histogram:


...and the map that the V-tune generated VE table looks like this:


I'm thinking that I might do some blending on the edges and call it good enough for now.  Good idea?   

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
Great v-tune job!! 

If everyone would "get it" like you have, there would be far fewer folks with issues with v-tune due to improper procedure.

How's it run???
Bob

[mayor]

oops...not so fast.  someone screwed up    I v-tuned map three with run 2....no wonder it looked so good.    Good thing I ran run 4.     I'm off to go for run 5 now. 

[hrdtail78]

I would spend a little time running the thing up in 4th or 5th to redline and snap it closed and let it engine break down to the lowest RPM it can stand.  This fill most of your 2% range and help with decel popping.

[DaleW]

does it spend enough time in those cells to collect data when doing that?

[hrdtail78]

I do it in 5th on the dyno.  There it does.  On the street, a long down hill would help.  Redline in 5th would be moving pretty fast for the street.  4th would be slower but the engine would decel faster.  The 2% cells he has gotton was done this way already.  2% with 3000rpm? Defintly not steady state.  So I guess to give you a straight answer.  I dont know, but The Mayor could tell us.

[mayor]

I dont know, but The Mayor could tell us.

I'll let you know after the next run.    if I have enough battery left in my lap top, it could be yet today.   

[hrdtail78]

How's that straight pipe and plug sound?

[mayor]

I couldn't get the right size freeze plug, so I had to settle for mufflers.   

Well I made another run....this time I ran the R's up to 6K at speed and closed the throttle while going downhill (in 4th and 5th gear...on a closed course of course  )
here's run 5 Histogram:


here's run 6 Histogram:


looks like that did help the Datamaster take more readings in the lighter tps settings for the upper R's. 

I think the key is go really really fast down a really steep mountain.   

[glens]

So what sort of VE changes did this make in the 2% column?  Is it really running just plain old closed-loop under those conditions?

[Steve Cole]

Looks like Mayor is having fun with this already.

[mayor]

So what sort of VE changes did this make in the 2% column? 

here's the VE's from map 5 and data run 5:


and here's the VE's from map 6 and data run 6:

Looks like Mayor is having fun with this already.

yea, but I think I would enjoy it more if it weren't my bike.     running 6 grand on a stock bike just doesn't sound good.   

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
Just look at it this way. The MOCO has tested these engines up to 5.6k rpm for hours on end, so I doubt if you have anything to worry about.
Bob

[rbabos]

I do need to ask this. Why is the idle kpa so low?
Ron

[TXChop]

Roughly how long is each vtune run? Miles? Just curious..Looks Great!

[trannyman]

Those are some real nice looking v-tunes! I know what you mean running it up to 6 grand.

[mayor]

I do need to ask this. Why is the idle kpa so low?
Ron

this is my first venture into kpa.... what should it be?

Roughly how long is each vtune run? Miles? Just curious..Looks Great!

thanks.  I'm doing roughly a half hour ride, and I'm averaging about 30 miles a trip.  There's a real nice mountain road nearby that doesn't have many houses, so I make a trip up and down each side as part of my tuning sessions. 

here's where I've been riding (my wife took these last week):

[Don D]

Mayor
What you using for a laptop? Like it? battery life OK?

[ViennaHog]

I noticed a map reading at idle that is way different form mine. Mayor's idle around 26 kpa, mine around 40 with everything tight and buttoned up. Replaced the map sensor on my 2008 Ultra with no impact on the readings. Details on the engine in the signature.

[mayor]

Mayor
What you using for a laptop? Like it? battery life OK?

I have a Dell D430.  The battery life is real good.  Generally the battery status report shows about 2 hours when I un plug the cord, and that's been pretty accurate under normal usage.  It has a small screen, so it took some getting used too but it makes a great traveling lap top. 



this bike is a bone stock '09 96" bagger w/ SE AC and SE Fatshots.  I've never dealt with kpa before, so can someone verify that my idle MAP is with-in the margin of error?

[ultraswede]

My bike is idling at 30-31 Kpa, with hot engine, but cold trans oil. (75w 140)

[rbabos]

Mayor
What you using for a laptop? Like it? battery life OK?

I have a Dell D430.  The battery life is real good.  Generally the battery status report shows about 2 hours when I un plug the cord, and that's been pretty accurate under normal usage.  It has a small screen, so it took some getting used too but it makes a great traveling lap top. 



this bike is a bone stock '09 96" bagger w/ SE AC and SE Fatshots.  I've never dealt with kpa before, so can someone verify that my idle MAP is with-in the margin of error?

At least you are tuning a more standard engine that will follow the rules of vtune better than more radical builds as in my case. As for the kpa, I'm beginning to think it's more calibration based on the readings, not just actual engine . The one calibration I've run all season runs what most consider low at 29kpa at idle. The latest calibration I played with runs 38 at idle. 38 seems more in line with most I've heard about. The reasons why this is with the same engine has yet to be answered. I feel this is a worthwhile question but so far nobody can or want answer the technical reason for this.
I will say this, any kpa readings that are below 26 ve numbers will not be accurate. This may not show much in a stock engine but plays hell with some builds, as in my original calibration. This is why I feel the latest calibration I've tested will end up being much better since all areas are much higher than minimum kpa to vtune better.
Your vtune numbers look good to me, for what I know of it, but question whether the idle did actually vtune accurately.
Ron

[ViennaHog]

The calibration seems to play a role in the idle kpa level. With the TTS latest software version it idles at 38-42 kpa. Then I reflash the ECM with  a similar SEST cal and miraculously the value drops to 32 kpa on the very same bike 10 min later. I certainly dunno enough to understand that.
Most bikes I have seen so far idle from about 28-35 kpa with the matching TTS cal. So what gives?

[mayor]

I'm getting ready to go on V-tune run #9.     I didn't get enough good data in the upper rpm's on run #8.  It looks like I was reaching those areas with too much MAP. ....I guess I need to accelerate down hill more, to go with my quick deceleration down hill.  If the next run looks good, then I'm reseting the acc, decel, afr, and knock tables and call it good enough. 

[glens]

What else could it possibly be besides the point(s) in time during the cycle at which the MAP sensor is getting polled?  Or at least which reading is being used...

I still question whether the "readings" are "appropriate" in some cases when enrichment/enleanment are disabled.

Here are the first three vtune histograms on my "stage one" '09 96" showing the idle manifold pressure:

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wurk_truk]

go buy a corded cigarette lighter/power cord extension.  Cut the male end off and hook it to the battery tender cord.  THEN you can run a 12vdc power supply and NEVER worry about battery life on the laptop again.

This allows one to do v-tunes back-to-back while on the road with no need to return home.

[strokerjlk]

I'm doing roughly a half hour ride, and I'm averaging about 30 miles a trip.  There's a real nice mountain road nearby that doesn't have many houses, so I make a trip up and down each side as part of my tuning sessions. 

your making me somewhat homesick for Bedford. grew up there for a while. thanks for the pics!...what road is it?
now stop by Jean Bonnet and have a yuengling draft for me. 

[mayor]

Jim, that's Brumbaugh Mt (PA869) which goes from Osterburg to New Enterprise. It's a great road to play on.  Funny you should mention Jean Bonnet....I just used their parking lot to stop my last data run.    I decided to try a different route today, figured that sooner or latter someone would notice a black bagger making too many high speed runs on the same road.     I'll see if I can't drink a yeungling for you at lunch time.  They just bought a brewery in Memphis, so you may be able to get them in your area soon. 

here's my latest histogram:

looks like I managed to get a fair amount of readings in the 5.5k range this time.  I would have liked to seen some in the 60% areas of 5-6k, but if the VE's look good in the V-tune I might call it good enough.   I think having a screen to view would help fill more cells, since I'm probably spending a lot more time than I need to on some cells.  I was going to strap my lap top to my tank, but decided against that since some of the roads I'm riding wouldn't allow for too much distraction. 

[mayor]

Here's my latest V-tune ve tables:

how's that look?    I think I'm going to blend the outside edges and call it good enough?   

[Don D]

Mayor
The MAP pressure, not to be confused with gauge pressure we saw when testing old cars seems to be balpark. I agree with Ron the calibrations are what I see as an influence and they should be. This injection timing thing is being swept under the rug IMHO and at higher speeds may not be so critical but at low speeds squirting fuel on a closed valve or delaying injection at the beginning or a late closing injector at the end of the cycle sure would screw with the MAP. The throttle plate is fixed, the IAC lets the air in and the idle timing will be a strong influence as well.
Yours I am sure is fine, sorry for the soap box. I wish the TTS had a better method to tune the injection timing, but that said on a stock motor should not be as critical as what we see on the modified motors.

[FLTRI]

What else could it possibly be besides the point(s) in time during the cycle at which the MAP sensor is getting polled?  Or at least which reading is being used...

I think you win the cigar here. Since polling events are definable, it can and does change readings.
No right or wrong here, just different.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Dewey

You keep bringing up injection timing but do you really have any idea what it is? You claim it's being swept under the carpet but you along with many others do not understand it. Spraying fuel on a closed intake valve is not only necessary, it's a good thing! It pulls the heat out of the valve and that heat helps turn the liquid fuel into a gaseous fuel which burn more completely, so it produces more power. As with anything else too much on a closed valve is not a good thing but you have been spraying fuel on a closed valve all your life with a carburator!

As for Mayors kPa it is right where it should be for his build. It's not low and the system (ECM) has no idea what the build is that its running.

[Eleft36]

How does the fuel air mixture get drawn in to a port with the intake valve closed?
You mentioned it is sprayed on the valve in a carbureted event.
Is it good to time an injector to spray when the wrong cylinder is on the intake stroke?
Are you referencing sequential injection?
Al

[Blackbaggr]

go buy a corded cigarette lighter/power cord extension.  Cut the male end off and hook it to the battery tender cord.  THEN you can run a 12vdc power supply and NEVER worry about battery life on the laptop again.

This allows one to do v-tunes back-to-back while on the road with no need to return home.

That there is a good idea !    During my last set of v-tunes I lugged around an auxillary power source in my tour pack...it worked great but your idea seems a little easier.

[Blackbaggr]

So Mayor...its gotta be running pretty smooth by now...what say you ?

[mayor]

So Mayor...its gotta be running pretty smooth by now...what say you ?

aaaah......it was.    

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,31871.0.html

[FLTRI]

How does the fuel air mixture get drawn in to a port with the intake valve closed?.....mentioned it is sprayed on the valve in a carbureted event.

Sure, since leftover intake velocity is still present when the intake valve closes, there is plenty fuel sitting, waiting for the intake to re-open.

Is it good to time an injector to spray when the wrong cylinder is on the intake stroke?

Think about that one for a second...Can't have a wrong cylinder on an intake tract...piston travel and cam timing dictate what is the intake stroke.[/quote]

Are you referencing sequential injection?

Yes, but it also applies to other systems,
Bob

[Eleft36]

"Think about that one for a second...Can't have a wrong cylinder on an intake tract...piston travel and cam timing dictate what is the intake stroke".

In reference to a single throttle body or port injection, what dictates the sequential injector discharge per separate cylinder? Harley (stock) shares only the air, no?

Al

[Steve Cole]

Take a look at the size and shape of a HD intake track and then you will understand. It's too short and small to keep the fuel from bouncing from one cylinder to the other, this is part of why a HD sounds like a HD. IF you run a HD on the dyno with the air cleaner removed most of the time you can see a standoff of fuel coming out of the intake when under power.

[wurk_truk]

I've seen that spray and it confirmed to me that these are in no way sequential like on an LS7

[Don D]

Dewey

You keep bringing up injection timing but do you really have any idea what it is? You claim it's being swept under the carpet but you along with many others do not understand it. Spraying fuel on a closed intake valve is not only necessary, it's a good thing! It pulls the heat out of the valve and that heat helps turn the liquid fuel into a gaseous fuel which burn more completely, so it produces more power. As with anything else too much on a closed valve is not a good thing but you have been spraying fuel on a closed valve all your life with a carburator!

As for Mayors kPa it is right where it should be for his build. It's not low and the system (ECM) has no idea what the build is that its running.

OK fair enough
Give us the tools to change it so that we can experiment and obtain maximum power as we can do with the rest of the software and as is done with automotive software. Just a suggestion from the field.
Thanks

[Eleft36]

Take a look at the size and shape of a HD intake track and then you will understand. It's too short and small to keep the fuel from bouncing from one cylinder to the other, this is part of why a HD sounds like a HD. IF you run a HD on the dyno with the air cleaner removed most of the time you can see a standoff of fuel coming out of the intake when under power.

I've looked many times, your statement just brings up logic questions
So, it makes no difference which color wire is connected to the injectors, front or rear?
How does the afr difference get changed in one cylinder versus the other other cylinder?
What's the purpose of two o2 sensors?

Why have two injectors if not to sequentially serve a specific cylinder?

The big question is, if injector timing doesn't matter, why shouldn't all the maps give a good idle?

Al

[Steve Cole]

You guys are trying too hard. Injection timing is not altered in automotive tuning applications just as it's not altered on a HD application. The main advantage of adjusting the injector timing is at engine low speed for EMISSIONS not for overall power.

Yes you need to keep the proper injector wires connected to the proper cylinder and the same goes for the O2 sensors as well.

[ultraswede]

Injection timing is not altered in automotive tuning applications

Yes it is, in HPtuners for example.

[FLTRI]

Injection timing is not altered in automotive tuning applications

Yes it is, in HPtuners for example.

If this is true, they sure hide that fact from all propaganda on their website.
Can you point me to where changing injector timing is a festure of the product.
Thanks,
Bob

[Don D]

From Motec
"The EM20 allows the tuner to - via an IBM-compatible laptop - alter fuel injection timing and gives closed-loop mixture control"

[wurk_truk]

Not 100%, but think LSEdit also allows this on late SBCs, like LS6's and 7's.

Lately, there have been some good threads on this issue. .  It looks like what base map one picks greatly influences idle quality, and I am ALL ears!!!

[Jamie Long]

You can change injector timing with both HPtuners and EFI Live, and I am sure with a handful of others as well.

[Don D]

Jamie
Is that a power adder at higher speeds?

[FLTRI]

From Motec
"The EM20 allows the tuner to - via an IBM-compatible laptop - alter fuel injection timing and gives closed-loop mixture control"

What is this item? I know MoTec made a rough system for Harley's about 15 years ago, but it never got off the ground.
I know they make a 4cyl M4 system, don't remember an EM20???
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Motec never made a EM20. That is an old discontinued unit from GEMS out of England as I recall. I also have never seen or heard of anyone adjusting injector timing with EFI live or HP tuners software packages. Most allow you to adjust VE and such but not injector timing.

[Jamie Long]

Jamie
Is that a power adder at higher speeds?

It would be very interesting to test variations in injector timing on a Harley application but until done so I cannot speculate at the results. It should have the possibility of being a very useful tool when tuning higher output builds with an over abundance of overlap, as the charge is going right past the exhaust valve and adjusting the injector timing would give us some control over that. 

[Jamie Long]

I also have never seen or heard of anyone adjusting injector timing with EFI live or HP tuners software packages. Most allow you to adjust VE and such but not injector timing.

With HPtuners there is a Injector Timing Boundary adjustment that lets you adjust injector timing based on crank reference from TDC and there are two other tables which break up injector timing by opening and closing events, I am not sure of the specific tables with EFI Live.

[Steve Cole]

Jamie
Is that a power adder at higher speeds?

It would be very interesting to test variations in injector timing on a Harley application but until done so I cannot speculate at the results. It should have the possibility of being a very useful tool when tuning higher output builds with an over abundance of overlap, as the charge is going right past the exhaust valve and adjusting the injector timing would give us some control over that.

Sorry, but this is NOT how it works. First one needs to understand what has to happen to make it run properly and then what cannot be done. To put it as simple as I can it not something you can just make an adjustment with and it's all better. There is a lot of testing necessary that has to be done to see the effects across the entire operating range of the engine. Then you need the equipment to take the measurement with. Start with about $250,000 and you can get the basic equipment needed to some of the work. When you've got another $250,000 to spend you can get a bit more. As you can see it's not something the aftermarket dyno tuner can handle very well let alone someone at home in the garage.

What you have described are some of the LIMIT tables but not the injector timing itself as that has to be set based on the amount of time needed to inject the proper amount of fuel under the operating conditions the engine is in at the time! You need to account for all possible conditions at all possible fuel delivery rates to adjust injector timing. NOT a simple task with the proper equipment let alone without it.

[wurk_truk]

This, and the other thread, confirms my suspicions that there is way too much going on to be able to simply 'change' the start of injector timing.  Doc was, indeed, correct.

08-09 TBW bikes have been "orphaned" as far as starter maps.  I don't see Steve taking the time to develop new base maps for these years, as the newer bikes have the different O2s and placement.

Once it gets a little cooler, I think I am going to play around and load all the maps that are close for 54s and SEE which one has the best idle quality BEFORE v-tuning.  Then v-tune that and see the results.  To me?  From recent threads... It appears that idle and low speed has more of a direct correlation to the starter map than WOT, WOT being more 'tuneable' over a wider range of base maps... idle and low speed is more dependent on the base map.

[lonewolf]

As you can see it's not something the aftermarket dyno tuner can handle very well let alone someone at home in the garage.

You mean this won't work?  Homemade Motorcycle Dyno, First Test Runs

[strokerjlk]

This, and the other thread, confirms my suspicions that there is way too much going on to be able to simply 'change' the start of injector timing.  Doc was, indeed, correct.

08-09 TBW bikes have been "orphaned" as far as starter maps.  I don't see Steve taking the time to develop new base maps for these years, as the newer bikes have the different O2s and placement.

Once it gets a little cooler, I think I am going to play around and load all the maps that are close for 54s and SEE which one has the best idle quality BEFORE v-tuning.  Then v-tune that and see the results.  To me?  From recent threads... It appears that idle and low speed has more of a direct correlation to the starter map than WOT, WOT being more 'tuneable' over a wider range of base maps... idle and low speed is more dependent on the base map.

John
while I enjoy you experiments,remember this FWIW.  when you load diff maps and look , listen ..whatever it is your going to do to quantify a better idle quality ,between maps.  the idle kpa will vary and so will the ve's at those kpa areas. timing will also vary somewhat from map to map.
guess you could leave them in closed loop and make a determination based on them all being closed loop
you really think all the 08-09 Cal's are derived from actual bike's   

[hrdtail78]

While loading different maps I would atleast record one run and generate a tune. This wI'lli tell you how far your ve's are off and what running kpa is.  Always smart to record data in known trouble areas before wasting time trying to get as many cell as you can.

[wurk_truk]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

[Steve Cole]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

Believe it or not we have already had E85 here for sometime. While it's not wide spread here we do have it. Our fuel has had up to 10% blend for the past 5 years everywhere here. E85 just takes it to 15% blend. EGR is the largest thing that is causing what you are seeing and it's not just a simple thing to adjust for. So where does EGR come from? Your head work, camshaft, intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust style and exhaust components. So how many various combination's of these parts are out there? How many are we supposed to get in and tune for? EGR's largest effect is at low engine speeds and light load areas................ sound familiar?

[rbabos]

While loading different maps I would atleast record one run and generate a tune. This wI'lli tell you how far your ve's are off and what running kpa is.  Always smart to record data in known trouble areas before wasting time trying to get as many cell as you can.

Agree. First experimental on a new cal vtune run said go for it, but had to drop the ci to get the ve's into the 70s. Next two runs were good, as in nice and even between cyls. First time I've seen that, and will continue with this cal next spring and see if I can nail this one.
Ron

[FBRR]

The only thing I will add here is E85 is not 15% it is 85%!! E15 will be the new 15% Ethanol!!

[BVHOG]

No, but there will be no NEW cals ever.  The MOCO is done with these years and 'old' system.  No new SEST tunes forthcoming. It will be the same with Steve, too.  I actually suspect that Steve and MOCO are still hooked up together... after years of collaboration.... why else all the SE tunes and nothing else?  It's NOT like SE cams are popular.  I feel it is WHY there are no tunes with cams that folks actually buy.  And.... why not? It gets the product into our hands.  I doubt TTS understands the ECM near as well as the TEAM of engineers at MOCO and Delphi do.  So, TTS IS doing the correct thing here.

So.  I deal with things how I see them and not how I wish them to be.  Yes... that is good idea to baseline the changes.  May throw my VEs in there to start off with, as I feel the VEs I have are really decently close.  I wish to go back to closed loop.  E15 is coming soon to ALL three of us.  I just read its approved for corn belt states and all thats left is oil companies are arguing about the new stickers that will HAVE to go up on the dispensers.  2001 and back vehicles cannot use E15, and it's a crap shoot on 2008 and back vehicles.  So, with you 2 guys in Illinois and me in Ohio... we WILL see this.  Right now, I have a hybrid of Herko's tune on open loop.  Low speed isn't good on the closed loop tunes..... YET.

Folks like us will NOT receive help from Steve, etc... they live on the left coast... reality with gasoline is quite different on the coasts.  They have never SEEN E85.  They have no coal fired power plants that EPA wants to 'even out', etc.  It will be up to guys like you and Jim.  You will HAVE to learn to share info with some of us, so that we share back.  I realize you feel it's ALL proprietary, but this gasoline thing... in the future... is going to alter tunes for ALL of us.

Still hooked up together? I suspect a much simpler explanation for the SE stuff.

[hrdtail78]

Mayor,

Get your FBW fixed?  How the rest of your tune go?

[rbabos]

On an existing tune at present, can the ecm adjust for E15, or is it right on the edge and a new tune needed anyway?
Ron

[mayor]

yep, all fixed.  Apparently the connection to the TB is kinda important now.     I think the tune went well.  The bike is running very good-  the acceleration is smooth, and the cruising is smooth...no matter what rpm or throttle range.  I just ordered one of these from Amazon:

.... for my next batch of v-tuning (which could happen in a few weeks weather permitting).  I ordered a set of 48 cams...so the first tuning was just a practice run.    I'm hoping that being able to see the cells will allow me to shorten up my v-tuning time, and allow me to get a better tune (since I can work on trouble spots). 

I understand somewhat on the VE blending for v-tune tuning, but how do you guys tune the wide open on the dyno?  do you just adjust the ve tables to get your sniffers to read right? 


I set my clb's at 781, is that ok for 10%corn oil?  if I am interpretting correct, that clb will give me about a 98% stoich reading...no matter what stoich is....is that right? 

[hrdtail78]

I set all high throttle to 13.5 in the AFR table.  Calibrate VE's to hit target.  Now the ECM knows how much air is moving.  So any target that is called out in the AFR table should be hit.

[Steve Cole]

The only thing I will add here is E85 is not 15% it is 85%!! E15 will be the new 15% Ethanol!!

I have heard it said both ways and I do not know which is correct. E15 makes more sense as the amount of Ethanol though. What I can say is CA fuel has been a blend of 10% for over 5 years now and it's going to 15% blend in the near future. Just be glad you guys do not have to run the junk we have. All the TTS calibrations we have done for the 2007 and up bikes has been done on a 10% blend fuel. The best fuel grade we can buy at the pump today is 91 octane and that is slated to drop to 89 or 90 octane next year! As for having a bike tuned on gasoline without Ethanol blend then switching to a 15 % blend your going to need to retune and touch up the spark tables. If your really going to 85% Ethanol blend it's time to start over.

Mayor

721 clb is fine for your setup with or without the new cam.

[wolf_59]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28618.0.html
Mayor here is a good thread  on stoich values for setting your clb's for your fuel type

[mayor]

thanks Wolf.  I read through that this morning, and that's how I figured I was alright...but figured I'd ask anyway.   

[Don D]

Mayor nice car, let us know how it does on those backroads

[mayor]

Mayor nice car, let us know how it does on those backroads

  I wish that was what I ordered.  More like the thing displaying it.   

[wurk_truk]

E85 is almost pure ethanol.  85%. (Corn Belt thing for sure). E10 is available now and sold by most second tier gas stations.  E15 will be 15% and will ruin older cars hoses, etc., but will be offered soon.  Only Tier One gas stations (google that) offer no corn gasoline.  The only Tier One in my area is Shell.  But...........  Shell isn't everywhere I ride.  I wish to use my closed loop in the near future, and get it all straightened out to run E10.  No more Tier One for me.

Shell is 93 here, but corn oil 10 runs 92 or 91 in the Midwest.

E85 is kinda rare and those flex fuel cars use it, I guess.  I have never used it personally.  Grocery Stores sell E85 instead of Diesel in that third underground tank.  Wasn't enough demand for Diesel for them I guess with their points and cards, etc.  REAL men don't buy groceries.  HAHAHA

[wurk_truk]

Damn Shell gas is dangerous anyways.

Cars I used to have before... while I ran corn oil.



Nice car after running Shell Gas.



HAHAHA

[mayor]

well, it was probably easier to change tires that way.   

[Jeffd]

damn there are easier ways to get the change out of the seats.

[hotroadking]

well changing the oil filters gonna be easy on that gold one now....

[wurk_truk]

That Z06 was a hoot to drive up at the Autobahn CC, near Chicago.