TTS closed loop conversion to a '04 touring, need a starting cal

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK Guys,

With our build what Map am I looking at starting at.  We could
be running this weekend and did not want to wait to ask when
you guys are all out riding.

04 ULTRA
95 Cu build
SE Flat Top pistons
Larrys Stage 1 head work
.030 Head Gasket
48N cams
Stock injectors and throttle body
Stage one Air with Exotic Air Filter
SuperTrapp Super Meg 2 to 1

Sorry I forgot to put this is for TTS

[mayor]

I think you need to be a little more specific....

he needs a cal recomendation for his '04 touring bike running in closed loop with an -05 ECM using TTS. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

I think you need to be a little more specific....

he needs a cal recomendation for his '04 touring bike running in closed loop with an -05 ECM using TTS.

Thanks Mike

[mayor]

I changed the title for you, to hopefully get an answer.  I'm not sure what cal needs to be used or what constants need changed to get this to work, but I'm sure someone here does. 

[hrdtail78]

CAA176 is what I started with.

06FLH closed loop
Andrews 26
TH 2-1, S&S A/C
95 w/ street ported heads by Dewey Jelen.

[mayor]

is there any tuning constants that need changed for a '04?  is the TB and injectors the same as the '06's? 

[hrdtail78]

I didn't look into it since I was tuning a 06.  But yes there are some difference in injectors from 04 to 06.  8 degree vs 25 degree.

I think the 04 will have 27609-01 and my 06 have 27625-06A.  I don't now the flow rate difference in these.  I'm sure you can search this site and find that stuff.  Good luck.

You might want to look at app. B in the cal. file listing manual.

[Thumper Buttercup]

I didn't look into it since I was tuning a 06.  But yes there are some difference in injectors from 04 to 06.  8 degree vs 25 degree.

I think the 04 will have 27609-01 and my 06 have 27625-06A.  I don't now the flow rate difference in these.  I'm sure you can search this site and find that stuff.  Good luck.

You might want to look at app. B in the cal. file listing manual.

Ours had the 27609-01B's, on the 06's the throttle body is larger I think??

We got our TTS today so I can look through the software and see if I have
any questions.

Hopefully our 02's and the extra pins for wiring will be here tomorrow.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK reading the book it says for our 04 to use the 176 cal's.  It also states on
that page that you need to have 25 degree injectors or 4.9 g/s high-flow
injectors for the 176 cals.

This is on the top of page 19 of the Mastertune-HD Calibration File Listing.


How much can you change after you select a Cal??

[hrdtail78]

IMO The 176 cal. is the one you want.  Constants can be changed, and who cares if the VE's have to come in over 20 change.  There are some other tables that are good for a starting point.  I would assume injector size in the constants will affect more than just the VE's but I have also assumed that it affects the VE's the most.  I used to pick cam timing as the most important.  Not true with the MT8's.  Now I pick from the overall build.  Compression, pipe style, cam style...IE: low/mid, mid, or high end.

Keeping it simple.  Tuning is about figuring out how much air is pumpling through the engine and making fuel and spark optimal to that airflow.  That is all.

[mayor]

OK reading the book it says for our 04 to use the 176 cal's.  It also states on
that page that you need to have 25 degree injectors or 4.9 g/s high-flow
injectors for the 176 cals.

How much can you change after you select a Cal??

you change these settings under:  table selection/tuning constants

Keeping it simple.  Tuning is about figuring out how much air is pumpling through the engine and making fuel and spark optimal to that airflow.  That is all.

it really is that simple. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

Monitor mounted on Ram mount, selected Cal

CAA176-03 2006-2011 2 into 1 Exhaust with 02 sensors
Configuration: 1580 Stage 2

Componets

25 deg injectors
Air Cleaner and Breather Kit
.550: Lift 211/235 Duration Camshaft
RB Racing 2 into 1 Exhaust


Adjusted

Displacement to 95cu
Injectors to 4.35 GPS
Adjusted Cams based on Andrews setting using the Cam Estimator

Still waiting on the 02 sensors and plug hardware.


Question, If Rev-Perf turned off the 02's can TTS turn them on or
will they be turned on when I upload the new map???

Thanks Guys, looking for Tuesday or Wednesday tune day if all works out.

[Hilly13]

The 02's will come back with the TTS cal if the AFR table is set for closed loop.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Hilly13,

   This cal is a closed loop cal.  Just what I needed to know, thanks.

[mayor]

what Hilly was meaning was you need to make sure you set the afr tables to 14.6, which turns the system into closed lop instead of open. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

what Hilly was meaning was you need to make sure you set the afr tables to 14.6, which turns the system into closed lop instead of open.

Mike on that cal most of the map is already set for 14.6.

Blocks 30 to 80 Map(kpa) and 750 to 4500 RPM

Should I set the 20 and 90 and 100 Map blocks and the 5000 up rpm blocks to 14.6 and let the 02's sort it out with the V-tune???

[mayor]

yes, you will set all the cells to 14.6 except the last column.  Just click in the rpm cell in the upper corner to highlight all the cells, then use the 20 increment button to max out the cells to their leanest allowable settings. 

[Hilly13]

Let the fun begin
Your in good hands thumper, mayor is a vtune addict 

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

  Got that setup.


One last question for today

This cal is for a 06, what would be the primary Gear Ratio for our 05???

[lonewolf]

Adjusted Cams based on Andrews setting using the Cam Estimator

I would set the IVO by collecting some cam data, then try what it suggests and also try one number lower. See which one the bike likes and see where idle kpa is.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Adjusted Cams based on Andrews setting using the Cam Estimator

I would set the IVO by collecting some cam data, then try what it suggests and also try one number lower. See which one the bike likes and see where idle kpa is.

Using the Cam Estimator it suggested to set the opening at one earlier and the closing at
one later,  that is where I started with.

[lonewolf]

What's your kpa at idle?

[mayor]

Adjusted Cams based on Andrews setting using the Cam Estimator

I would set the IVO by collecting some cam data, then try what it suggests and also try one number lower. See which one the bike likes and see where idle kpa is.

Using the Cam Estimator it suggested to set the opening at one earlier and the closing at
one later,  that is where I started with.

lonewolf was not referring to the published data, but rather the tested data. He's referring to a test you do using the datamaster program to determine what the intake valve's open point is.  To do that you warm the bike up to operating temp, then record cam IVO data using the Datamaster program, then analyse the data to see where the data suggests the opening is. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK got it now,

lonewolf, still waiting for my 02's and the last of the stuff to make
my wiring harness.  Should be here Monday or Tuesday and we will
be fired up by the next day.

I figure to fire it up and see what is going on with the interface then
ride up and down the driveway a couple times to see if I'm getting
data ok, then we will take her out on the local roads to tune.

[hrdtail78]

When comparing one setting to the next, or one cal. to another, Vtune them in the idle area before making a decision.  This will also let you see if you are gathering data and such.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Well Houston we have a problem.

We were waiting for the last of our 02 wiring stuff and I decided to hookup
to the bike and save our ECM Cal and up load the new Cal.

We'll we saved our old one with no errors and then up loaded the new Cal.

Then we started getting P0113, P0118, P0123 errors, clear them turn off the
bike and they would return, checked the units all getting 5 volts.  These are
all brand new sensors.  So we pulled out our 04 ECM.....no errors.

This is the 05 ECM PN# 32534-05A that we purchased from Rev-Perf when
we went to their unit.  Maybe this has been going bad all a long, it was a used
one with a dent on the backside.

So I called the Dealer, I was lucky they had a 32534-05C in stock, well they
programmed in our Vin and a basic cal for us and we priority mailed our ECM's
and TTS interface to Steve to get the new ECM married up.

Come on Steve if you are reading this we need this one old buddy.  We've been
fighting this thing for two months.

I hope you guys had a much better day than us.

[mayor]

I tried calling Steve today, but he wasn't in the office. He's been out on the road at a show somewhere.  I think Vicki said he was going to be back in tomorrow. 

you think the ecm might have been your issues with the RP product?

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike we checked the bike for errors during all of this
and we did not get one error.

If fact the errors did not show up until we did the save and loaded the new
cal into the EMS.

[DirtNap]

Sorry to see you having some problems with the conversion.I did some what the same conversion on my 04 fxsti .I took my chances with a ebay ecm & o2  I seemed to come out good .Except for slapping together a map .Hopefully the new ecm works out .I can maybe pick up some info from you .

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey DirtNap,

   I'm just crusing along, Steve, Mayor and the group are helping me out here,
I'm standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon and looking down at my learning
curve .

Been sitting here for a few days working on my start cal and reading a couple
groups along the way and making changes when i read something that might help.

Mark

[DirtNap]

I wasnt aware of this place at the time of my conversion .It would have sure been helpful to me. The conversion was well written out and easy to understand.It even listed the part numbers i needed . The map was a whole different story ,there was no info im aware of that was directly related to the conversion.So i had to pick though every setting and research ever single setting to be certain it was correct .I found out that i had to correct injectors to 4.35 and the primary ratio to 1.440 and still dont know if it is correct .Then luckily i found a mt7 (bhd105-03)file that was the exact build i have and blended  it into a m8 to take full advantage of the tts software .I changed around so many things i lost count .I almost wish i just went had my bike bike tuned open loop.

I dont mean to invade your thread .Im just thinking me and you may be the only conversions around . I want to exchange as much info as possible for others,myself and you to read.

[hrdtail78]

I'm a convert.

[Thumper Buttercup]

If all goes well we will be doing our first V-Tune this afternoon.

Steve busted his butt and got our EMS back out yesterday .

But he went beyond that and made us a custom map.

Been sitting here last night and this morning reading over Mayors
post where he did all his tuning trying to pick up a couple pointers.

Now if Fed Ex can deliver we will be in business.

Thanks Steve for all the hard work .


Mark & Kim

[mayor]

If all goes well we will be doing our first V-Tune this afternoon.

I'd suggest opening a box.net account (free) so you can post your vtune run recordings. Make sure you post your calibrations used during those recordings as well.  This will allow you to get active feedback from the forum members regarding your tune, which should help you speed up the process and should help catch potential problems if any pop up along the way.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK thanks to Steve we are back in business, and thanks to Mayor for helping
with our V-tune cal.  Now to just get some time to ride the bike and get her
sorted out.

Thank you Steve for getting us fixed so fast and putting together a Cal file.

[mayor]

Mark & Kim,

once you get your vtuning complete: after you convert the calibration to regular use (AE, DE, Knock Retard, afr, etc.) you should run a regular data recording to see if your knock retard function is pulling any timing.  Here's how you record regular data: click on file, then select record data.



when you click on that, the program will then have you select a location that the recording will be saved at on your hard drive, and data recording control center will pop-up.  In the data recording center, select generic data:

The generic data records at a little less speed (frames/sec) than the generic o2 data, but it also records speed which is helpful in getting a better picture of what is happening during the data run.  When you are riding during the data recording, you want to vary the load and rpm's as much as you can. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll after our high speed run last week and the top end sounded like it wanted to
defect we did some adjustments to the push rods and took them to 3 1/2 turns.

We also pulled two more disks from the muffler to drop it down to 14, noise wise
this is where we want the bike, but we might have to put back two disks for MPG.

Now the bike sounds great at the higher rpm's, got out today and made a couple
runs, here is the last v-tune and histogram of the last run.

Bike ran good but MPG dropped into the mid 30's today even on the run home at 65 mph.

Hey Mike, you have e-mail with some data .

[mayor]

I'm actually reviewing the data right now.  The vtune runs looked pretty good.  You were filling in the histograms real good.      

There was no timing being pulled during the data recording (-018), which is a real good start.   

I think 14 discs and closed cap is just not enough flow, but that's just my opinion.  I think you would be best served with 17-19 w/ closed cap.  if you change, you will need to vtune again to dial in the ve's. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

The day we ran that tune of yours and took it easy we got 40 + 45 mpg with 16 disks
and the closed end cap.

Today runing the hard run for the histogram we got 37.8+ mpg, but I expected
to get better than 35.7 doing that last data run and keeping it easy.

Do you think that two disks could have made that big of a change???

[mayor]

running hard you got almost 38? run it for a while, and see what it does.  Heck, there was times I was vtuning where I was getting 30-32. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

You see any tweaking we need to do???  It was funny that our MPG went
down on that data run, when I turned the Decel and Acc and the rest back to
the original settings did that do anything??

[mayor]

I didn't see anything that popped out.  I'll study the data run to see if there's anything obvious. 

[mayor]

You see any tweaking we need to do???  It was funny that our MPG went
down on that data run, when I turned the Decel and Acc and the rest back to
the original settings did that do anything??

I looked at the data recording you sent me, and I didn't see anything that stuck out but I have a couple of suggestions to try.  The bulk of your scan data was run at higher afr settings (CLB 759= ~14.54) and higher timing settings (40-45 degrees), so that's likely not your mpg issue.  Here's a MegaLog Viewer graph that should help visualize what the data run looked like:

the graph on the right represents your "desired afr", and that big patch of red is indicating the bulk is at or around your closed loop settings.  The graph on the left is the set timing, and that big patch of red indicates that the bulk of your riding was higher timing settings. 

The green circled areas are potential areas to improve milage.  It's unlikely to make drastic improvements, but it's worth a try since these are areas that you will be unlikely to feel a difference with slight tweaks. 

here's your current set desired afr:


here's what I would suggest that table be set to:

your set wide open was 13.0, but 13.2-13.5 isn't going to produce that much less power (although, since vtuning does not guarantee accurate ve's in the 90-100% MAP ranges...we do not know for sure that these values are accurate anyway). 

I also do not think that the decel needs to be set as rich as it was.  The sound of the exhaust will tell you if this is acceptable.  If you notice no change in the way the decel sounds, the new settings are fine.

in addition to the afr table changes, I think the PE AFR table needs changed (power enrichment air/fuel ratio).  Here's the current:

I have seen this table take affect with normal riding and it can override the afr table, so I think it's a good idea to match the desired PE afr to the afr desired afr at 100 map at least for the first few cells. Here's the changes I would suggest:


there's a cal attached based on your -018 with the above suggested changes.  Run another data run just like you previous an we'll see if the tweaks made any difference.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

for those wanting to see the data recording info, here's the files:

scandata-018:
http://www.box.net/shared/1dm5jpb9epejjzjpsahg

scandata CSV file (for MLV):
http://www.box.net/shared/ajs1o1pxt3ses9vmdk5b

cal -018 should be attached

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Mike,

   We'll give it a shot, looking at running our loop tomorrow and see what she does.
On gravel coming home the bike did not feel as smooth but I thought it was me,
I asked Kim and she felt the same thing so the upper rpm on the 20% could have
been what we felt.

We will keep the 14 disks plus the closed end-cap for now, and will increase if needed
and re-tune then.

I was looking at everything we had done last night and Steve had me do a cam timing
for the opening ( yep I know this is late in the game, but we jumped on the insurance
crap first then came back to the bike two weeks later ).  Like I said he had me check
cam opening but I went back to check the cam closing and found I did not run the
bike high enough to check the closing.  I'll do a closing check this afternoon to make
sure we are good to go there.

I meant to do this but kept forgetting with all the other crap we were working on, that is
one reason I wanted to do this on the bike when we had nothing else on the agenda.

On a side note, when we were running the Rev-Perf EMS and did a roll on with my buddy
I had to run the bike up to 5000 rpms to run hard for the next shift, well yesterday you
saw that second stop where we idled, we checked on a friend on the side of the road and
took off.

I noticed that the bike is pulling so much harder that I shifted at 4000 rpms and we did not
need to go to 5000 rpms like we did before to keep pulling hard on the next gear.


We'll post up more later.

Mark & Kim

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK, did a cam run to check the closing, I think it looks good but I was expecting the same type
of data you get from a Open Cam check.

Open Cam check



Closed Cam check



I also opened a Box.net account and here is the cam data run.


Cam-Data run 4
http://www.box.net/shared/aa17afufym4zskj7z665

[lonewolf]

You can't do the IVC without being on a dyno. You have to hold 3500+/- 50 rpm with ve tables calibrated to an open loop afr and collect the data from 60-100kpa.

[mayor]

You can't do the IVC without being on a dyno. You have to hold 3500+/- 50 rpm with ve tables calibrated to an open loop afr and collect the data from 60-100kpa.

I have my 48's set at 3 open 2 close.  If you change your cam close from 3 to 2, make sure you reVtune.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK ,

   We are going to do this right, we will re-vtune tomorrow and get in two more
runs, cams changed to 3 open and 2 close.  I will create a vtune 20 using your
ready 19 file Mike.  We'll back off the road test day for Friday.

Mike any problem with the other table changes or just leave them??


Mark

[mayor]

make sure you turn PE mode off by switching the trigger rpm to 10,000 in the ecm tuning constants section.  I only made the changes listed in my earlier post, so you could just use your last vtune file and make those same changes when you are done.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

Got rid of everything after 017, got 017 loaded with the cam changes and
ready to go, will redo yesterday and get two good v-tunes and a data run
home after turning everything back on.

I won't make any other changes until we see the result.  Thanks Mike,
I thought of this a couple times and kept getting caught up in other things
and forgot it.

Mark

[Thumper Buttercup]

We got out one more time, boy this route is getting old but it works for tuning.

First run out there.



Results





Second run



Results






This is what our VT's look like after the last run.



This is our rear, and to me it looking better than the front.



We have a data run done it's a boring one we did a few pulls but mostly laid back and tried
to unwind.  On this run which was 65 to 70 mph and some pulls through the gears we only
got 37.4 mpg.  So hopefully we can work it up some more from here.


Here is a link to our runs and the final run for the day.

http://www.box.net/shared/uly4i2thbgg7hvfd64tk

[powersmoke]

mark--
It appears we are trying to get to the same destination, just taking a different route,...

Question for you..and anyon else that knows...
I know its got to be a product of style and technique--but how in the world are you consisitantly hitting the top left corner cells? And NOT hitting the top/ upper mid right?

I have little success gettting a single green cell below 1750, much less 1500...
i cant let the clutch out that low.


oh...duh..
your chart is  reflecting TP..not MAP..disregard!

[mayor]

Question for you..and anyon else that knows...
I know its got to be a product of style and technique--but how in the world are you consisitantly hitting the top left corner cells? And NOT hitting the top/ upper mid right?

Power, you're comparing apples to oranges.  Your bike is lambda based, thumper's is afr based.  Lambda based ve tables are divided by MAP and AFR based is divided by throttle position (but the vtune data is still MAP limited to ~27-83 kPa). 

[Thumper Buttercup]

I've got a 7" monitor mounted on a RAM mount on the handle bars, I use what Mayor
said to do as in just get rolling and jump a few gears and work it but not lug it.

That first run starts at home on gravel the second run is in a small town, all asphalt
roads and small hills, so I run around the town a couple runs to fill in most of the lower
area, then head out on the local roads where it's really hilly, that the traffic is hardly
anyone around we can slow to a craw and work the bike through the gears and I
can watch on the monitor and hunt the boxes to fill them in.

[mayor]

Results

what did you change before this vtune? add the discs back on?

[Thumper Buttercup]

Just the cam setting, we deleted the working tunes and took that last tune we did
this week.  Changed cam from 3 open 3 closed to 3 open 2 closed.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Mike,

     Is the Peaks on the VE tables from me chasing the blocks and those area's needing
more data??

     What if we do our normal route tomorrow and work the areas that we normally
ride and concentrate from 2000 to 4500 rpm's.  When we get home we will check
the tables and change back any area that changes that we did not ride in???

What you think on this one?

[mayor]

Is the Peaks on the VT's from me chasing the blocks and those area's needing
more data??

don't get too concerned with seeing peaks...you should have peaks, that's natural. 

it looks like the EGR table should be reduced on the front from 3,200 down up , and the rear EGR table should be increased from 1,200 to 3,600. 

edit: meant to say from 3,200 and up on the front

[Thumper Buttercup]

You want me to do it

[mayor]

is vtune-018 the one you are on now?  are did you generate a vtune-019?

[Thumper Buttercup]

We generated vtune -19 and took it to make Ready20 with all the stuff turned
back on to do the data run. We did not run vtune -19.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Here is the vtune-19 that was generated.

http://www.box.net/shared/j80jspdhvky6rnnqa4v2

[mayor]

vtune the attached -019 cal

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Mike,

   Anything special you did in the change for the EGR settings???

[mayor]

Anything special you did in the change for the EGR settings???

nothing special, just reduced some where the left side of the transition was greater by a large percentage and decreased where the right side of the transition was greater by a large percentage (trying to be less than 5% between right and left cells at the transition). 

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll three more runs done today, data is in the box.net folder.

Mikes tune   vtune-019     vtunedata-019

Second Run  vtune-020  vtunedata-020

Third Run  vtune-021   vtunedata-021

made the vtune-022

but modified it for the data run renamed ready-22

DataRun was ScanData-005

First fill-up today mpg was 33.7, second fill-up on that last vtune-21  was 34.1

Bike is running good, hopefully when the riding settles down the mpg will go
up.


Here is our tables for the three runs.








http://www.box.net/shared/uly4i2thbgg7hvfd64tk

[mayor]

I'm trying to figure out why the milage isn't so good, and this could be a contributor....but it could also be real data     there's one area that I wouldn't mind getting a second opinion on from one of our pro's that has used o2 sniffers to verify vtuned results:

you're running a short cam and good heads so I would expect the ve's to be good in the early rpm's, but that seems a little too good. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

We filled up in town last night and ran home, 23+ miles at 72 mph,
then today the rest of that 118 miles was running hard doing the vtune.

We then filled up and did another vtune running hard and filling in data
that was vtune-021 run for 51.1 miles.  So most of this has been hard
running getting the data.

Maybe wfolarry put a turbo in them heads ..

Our TPS's are looking looser also. .

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike, when I do the vtune and it asks if I want to auto-extend I do, is that
where some of the problem is coming in???

[mayor]

it depends.... could be, but the white cells indicate that the vtune software likes the values...which seems odd to me.   

[mayor]

you should be close enough now for us to move to timing and tweeking based on data recordings. 

your scan data-005 showed the adaptive knock retard in action (timing being pulled):


the green pillar at the bottom represents timing being pulled on the rear cylinder starting at recording 6889:

The knock retard can be triggered from timing being too far advanced or when the engine is operating in a lean condition.  The trigger is not necessarily exactly where the knock retard event happened, so we have to view a dozen or so frames before and after the event an pay attention to changes to see what the trigger may have been. We are going to treat this trigger as timing related, since the bike was operating in closed loop (14.6) for an extended amount of frames on either direction of the knock retard. 

here's the current rear timing table:

the red circle was the timing cells that we being read by the ecm to determine the desired timing at the time of trigger.  We're going to take an educated guess that timing values in the 80 kPa column was the the engine didn't much care for, since the data recording showed plenty of time in the lower 70 kPa ranges in those rpm's without triggers.  We're going to arbitrarily choose to reduce the timing by one degree from 2,500-4,000 in the 80 kPa range. 

as a foot note: what you are seeing in the timing tables is not absolute values on what you should see in data recordings.  The ecm not only uses all surrounding cells to determine what value to use, but there are also other tables that affect the actual value as well (like spark temperature correction). I tend not to adjust the spark correction tables in the warmer riding conditions unless there are very evident MAP related knock retard trends that appear in the data recordings.

I made the changed to ready-022 and saved it as ready -023.  Do a data recording of this cal. Once we have no timing being pulled, we will start strategically advancing to see if we can improve milage.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

I missed that one totally when I glanced at the file.  That was where we
went through a S curve and I was accelerating out of the end of it so there
was a bit more torque being generated by the bike.  I tried to vary up the
data and I guess I did it there.

[Thumper Buttercup]

We got out and did the data run, worked it pretty good, I don't see anywhere it pulled timing, and believe me I tried.  We rode into town and filled up, this was back to back running pretty hard in places data run, got 37.6 mpg.  When we finished this ride I told Kim she was going to have to pry me off this bike, it has never.....never run like this, I thought it was great before but it pulls so hard that it's scary.

Something I forgot to mention Mike but all of this tuning was performed two up the way we ride always.

So we shut down the computer and cranked MeatLoaf on the stereo and fully enjoyed the ride, this one was about 60 miles of 67 mph and 23 miles of 57 mph and we got 39.5 mpg.

The bike only has a small decel pop but only at high speed gearing it down hard, nothing I want to change, it was only hitting 4th gear coming off at 70 mph, like I said I don't want to adjust it out, only heard it twice today.

Here is the data file.

http://www.box.net/shared/ar15zu3zvux4o7geepd0

[mayor]

do a data recording on the attached calibration.  I added timing and increased afr in some areas. I also added some ve's to the 0% TPS columns, so let me know if the popping is better or worse on this one. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Mike,

   I was not really concerned at all with the one pop, it only came on if
I really down shifted hard, it could have been from excess fuel when
I hit the turn off lane at 70 mph.

We'll give her a run and see where it goes.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK, going to throw out a couple questions, our temps have took a dump,
next week we will be back in the low 70's.  How much will the lower temps
mess up with our data runs??  Do we need to suspend any serious tuning
until spring??

Looking next week at getting a good data run with the new cal, then we
are looking at doing a data run with Steve's tip on MPG and see what we
see.

Lastly, on our long trips we pull a trailer, how much would we benefit from
making a calibration for when we are pulling the trailer??  Thanks guys.

Mark & Kim

[Steve Cole]

Since the conditions are going to change no matter what you do, you are always going to see some change. This is why we tell you that once you see changes that are less than 5% your good to go. As for the trailer if you have covered most of the cells so that they are tuned in you should have no issues but if you have the time to toss the trailer on and load it while doing a Vtune it would help you fill in more area on the Vtune.

You can spend hours on end dialing it in closer and closer but once you get to a certain point unless you are doing nothing but racing you are fighting over fly "Potty mouth" and it's just not worth it as far as I am concerned. The changing conditions due to the engine itself, the weather and fuel are going to be greater than what you fighting to get. Now on a race track that's a entire different thing and why most any good team keeps note from every race at every location so the next time you are there you can set it the same as before and start adjusting from there.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Steve,

   We've got some good hills about 45 min away and we took the bike out there and wrung her out tight....about as tight as Kim's hands were holding on sometimes.  We always ride two up she goes when I do, I told her anyway I needed the dead weight for the runs to help the bike pull .  I could tell you what she said but I would have to censor it .

    We'll tweak her some more next week and see what she tales us.  More data to come.

[Steve Cole]

You had better be careful as Kim just might reach for something to hang on to next time that may make you get a new tone to your voice! 

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

   We are getting some mid 70's this weekend, is that going to
be warm enough to get good enough data for our data runs??

The beginning of the week is supposed to get closer to 80 but I think
they are teasing us again.  Our days are numbered up here now.

Thanks guys.

[mayor]

We are getting some mid 70's this weekend, is that going to
be warm enough to get good enough data for our data runs??

yes...any day is warm enough.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

Sorry about asking the question twice, crazy week and jumped on last night, did not
ever realize I asked it earlier.  Thanks again.

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll we sort of got a Data Run,

   Got in a hurry and started a run, got three miles down the road and figured out I started a V-tune,
so I stopped and started a data run.  Did not think anything about this, we ran to town bike ran great.
Got going home and got on the dirt and was running about 2000 rpms and the bike is now surging
at zero throttle just keeping the bike going easy down the dirt road.

Using Steve's New Tools here is what we got from our Data Run today.

Where do you guys suggest we do next?



Front VE



Rear VE



TPS Graph



Here is a link to the box.net folder with  DataRun #7 and the Cal we used vtune-024

http://www.box.net/signup/collablink/d_118232381/3c0979c09a76e

[mayor]

I didn't see any timing being pulled on that data run.   

try highlighting the 20 kPa column in your afr table and set to original to see if that takes care of the surging:

this will richen up the light throttle open loop settings.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Mike,

   We'll change that and load it up, we will see how she does tomorrow.

By the way, this bike is going to get me in trouble the way it pulls .

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll a beautiful day to get out and ride,

Kim and I rode our route that we like to ride, the first fill up we got 34.9, this was
from our data run that we did running the bike hard.

Then we went on our first part of our route, we ran about 20 miles at 65 mph and
then ran about 100 miles at 57 mph, we got 43.6 mpg.

OK feeling good here, the next part of our route was running 66-67 mph with a
couple slowdowns for towns 58.3 miles and got 43.2 mpg.

Now the test up the interstate 78 miles, a bit of construction running at 65 mph then
the rest running at 76-77 mph, our mileage dropped to 31.2 mpg.

So how do we tweak this one guys, RPM's run was right at 3200.  Do I need to do
a data run in that area or will the other data run I did tell me what to do??

Where do we go now, I cheated on the change Mike I changed the Air-Fuel table
on the 20% column to 13.0, bike seemed to run better at the lower rpm  and it
started better all day.  I might change it a little more.

[mayor]

Now the test up the interstate 78 miles, a bit of construction running at 65 mph then
the rest running at 76-77 mph, our mileage dropped to 31.2 mpg.

So how do we tweak this one guys, RPM's run was right at 3200.  Do I need to do
a data run in that area or will the other data run I did tell me what to do??

can you replicate that with a data run?  I would like to see what's happening there to see if there's anything that can be changed to to improve the milage there.  Without supporting data, we'd only be guessing. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

That's what I figured Mike,

Kim said no computer she wanted to enjoy the ride, just listen to music
and cool out.

Now I got to tell her YOU said she had to ride today to get the data

[mayor]

 

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK ,

    I called Steve this morning to talk this over, Mike if you look at that last data run there is about 7 min running the interstate, Steve talked me though checking the data and all looked good.  Then we discussed the aerodynamics of the Ultra = Brick, and that this might be the best she could do giving the load on her also.

Then we talked about the Closed Loop Bias tables and leaning out the bike a little, ours was set at 759 across the board, so we changed the 2500 to 700 across the board front and rear and changed up the 3000 to 661 across the board, the hopes here are to gain mpg.

I also went back and changed the AFR table the 20% column and made it original again.

So we started up with Calibration -026 and ran vtune 026, made the changes and loaded up cal 027 and ran vtune 027.  I did not try to hit the extreme rpm's we concentrated on where we ride for now.

We then made up calibration -028 and ran two data runs  run # 8 and run #9.

Run #8 was a easy run mainly running 70 mph, this run was 27.6 miles and used .58 gal of fuel for 47.58 mpg, looking at the data our head temps were 270 degrees and we were running in the upper 80's.  We have been running about 260 degrees.

Run #9 was a hard run north and south on I29, 41.5 miles at 1.34 gal = 30.97 mpg.  There was some head wind on the return 20 miles, now on this run you will see where I came off the throttle at the turnoff and the rear cylinder showed it knocked as soon as I came off the cruse, also you can see when we went around I downshifted to turn on to the on ramp and our rpms jumped and the rear cylinder knocked again, we never heard anything both times.

We need more testing but we are hopeful that we can improve the mpg but do not want to chance damaging our engine.

I uploaded all the files into the same folder on Box.net.  Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.box.net/shared/hbfna8rd46kae2djxuj1

[mayor]

Let me know what you guys think.

I think you are using too small of sample size to measure results.  You need to run much more miles at a time, since small numbers can create large margins of error.

I don't know if your bike will take it (may cause knock retard event), but you could try adding 2 degrees more timing at row 3,500 and column 70 kPa:

the chart on the right indicates that you had a high hit count around 3,200-3,300 rpm from 50-68 kPa.  The chart on the left indicates that you are mostly running in the low 40's in timing there.  I am pretty sure that we had to reduce the timing at 3k rpm/70 kPa due to knock retard, but increasing the timing at 3.5k/70 kPa will increase the amount in between as well. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Mike,

   Here is what you posted up when you did the last timing change.  Looks like the changes
were made in the 80kpa area 2500-4000 rpm range.

you should be close enough now for us to move to timing and tweeking based on data recordings. 

your scan data-005 showed the adaptive knock retard in action (timing being pulled):


the green pillar at the bottom represents timing being pulled on the rear cylinder starting at recording 6889:

The knock retard can be triggered from timing being too far advanced or when the engine is operating in a lean condition.  The trigger is not necessarily exactly where the knock retard event happened, so we have to view a dozen or so frames before and after the event an pay attention to changes to see what the trigger may have been. We are going to treat this trigger as timing related, since the bike was operating in closed loop (14.6) for an extended amount of frames on either direction of the knock retard. 

here's the current rear timing table:

the red circle was the timing cells that we being read by the ecm to determine the desired timing at the time of trigger.  We're going to take an educated guess that timing values in the 80 kPa column was the the engine didn't much care for, since the data recording showed plenty of time in the lower 70 kPa ranges in those rpm's without triggers.  We're going to arbitrarily choose to reduce the timing by one degree from 2,500-4,000 in the 80 kPa range. 

as a foot note: what you are seeing in the timing tables is not absolute values on what you should see in data recordings.  The ecm not only uses all surrounding cells to determine what value to use, but there are also other tables that affect the actual value as well (like spark temperature correction). I tend not to adjust the spark correction tables in the warmer riding conditions unless there are very evident MAP related knock retard trends that appear in the data recordings.

I made the changed to ready-022 and saved it as ready -023.  Do a data recording of this cal. Once we have no timing being pulled, we will start strategically advancing to see if we can improve milage.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK, I'm trying to understand what is happening here,

I'm looking at both events, playing them back slow and seeing that both times timing
was pulled from the engine prior to the knock.  Looking at the timing table the timing
is out of the range both times biased on the timing table.

Should I go back to my last good tune and do more data runs and worry about mpg later??






Looking at the table we should be between 45 and 39 degrees timing and we are at 37.75?



Here we are at 27.25 and by the table we should be at 31 to 39 degrees??

[mayor]

Should I go back to my last good tune and do more data runs and worry about mpg later??

that's what I would do....but I'm silly enough not to think that changing the CLB's from 759 (14.5 afr) to 661 (14.63) will make that much of a difference.    I think the key is in the timing tables...

....Looking at the table we should be between 45 and 39 degrees timing and we are at 37.75?...

....Here we are at 27.25 and by the table we should be at 31 to 39 degrees??....

you can't take the timing tables at face value.  There at least one other table that interacts with that table (Spark Temperature Correction) before the ecm determines what timing should be used. 

[lonewolf]

Shouldn't you have adaptive knock table set to 0?

[Steve Cole]

There is a lot of things that can cause Spark not to be just what's in the Front/Rear table by itself. There are corrections for Retard, Head Temp., Engine Temp., Air Temp., Warmup Advance, Decel Mode and Engine over temp. to name a few.

[mayor]

Shouldn't you have adaptive knock table set to 0?

good question, I don't know.  I read a couple of posts from folks suggesting that it should be done, but I also think that likely applies more to data runs that last for a few seconds or even just a few minutes....rather than 30 minutes or so.  From what I have seen, the these temporary knock retard values clear out much sooner than the next key off cycle as I've seen suggested.  I have seen 30 minute data runs with the same area pulling the same timing multiple times in different areas of the data recording and they usually have the same base timing (minus deductions for temp correction table).  I could be wrong in the way I look at this (after all, I really haven't been playing with the Delphi system very long  ), but if the timing in an area is temporaly reduced....and they subsequent reduced timing ends up getting reduced again....it's still saying that the timing needs to be reduced.  I wouldn't mind hearing your thought on this, since I'm just kind learning as I go.    

[Thumper Buttercup]

Shouldn't you have adaptive knock table set to 0?

For a v-tune run, but for a regular cal I thought everything needed to be turned back on??

[mayor]

Shouldn't you have adaptive knock table set to 0?

For a v-tune run, but for a regular cal I thought everything needed to be turned back on??

Those tables should be turned off for vtuning.  I think lonewolf is asking specifically about zero'ing out the tables when adjusting timing tables, at least that what I thought he was referring too.  Here's a thread that discusses this further: Spark retard and "TUNERS"

[lonewolf]

Your right Mike. I always reset the table at the end of a tune.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

    Kim and I talking last night and we are going to throw out everything we did the other day, 26,27,28 gone.  We will return to cal BPZ176-vtune-025.MT8.  We will do our loop that we run and a full data run.  OK at 76-77 we are running 3200 rpm's if you guys see anything we can adjust a little to help out the mpg let me know.

Our next tune will be -030, I want to keep the data of the last two v-tunes and data runs we did to see what happened to us.

Any other suggestions we'll take guys, we were hoping to wrap this up before the season is gone for us so in the spring we can roll out of here and not worry about tuning.

Looking back at our data, running interstate we use to get around 35-39 mpg this was 95cu with stock cams no head work running two up.

Here is the cal -025 that we will be running.

http://www.box.net/shared/cdxk8ul6piocj1ez1fm3



Mark & Kim

[mayor]

I don't run lowers, but I averaged 39-42 mpg one up during my road trips this year on my tourpak equiped batwing bike.

[Thumper Buttercup]

I don't run lowers, but I averaged 39-42 mpg one up during my road trips this year on my tourpak equiped batwing bike.

It seems so far that when we get above 65 mph ours is taking a dump .  I thought with the cams, head-work, fresh build that this would at least get us a few extra mpg not dropping us down to 30-31 where we are at.  Something is going on, maybe we will have to get her on a dyno to see what is really going on here.  Heck I'm glad that we are getting the 43+ at 65, 55 mph areas just want a couple more in the 75 mph areas.  Heck we've seen 35 mpg with us pulling the trailer on the interstates, but we have also seen 28 mpg in bad conditions also.

[mayor]

my typical hi-way milage is based on 75mph+ hi-ways speeds (but I also have slightly different gearing than you).  In looking at your data recordings, you are running on closed loop during your hi-way speeds....which leaves only one vairable to try (timing).  I do beleive that you may be able to pick up a little with the leaner clb setting, but I am not a fan of running that lean.  I'm just too old school.   One thing I would like to mention, gas blends will make a huge difference in milage.  My wife and I averaged very similar milage when we rode on trips this year (me on a 96"/tts batwing bike set at clb 762, her on an 88"/tmax RK set around 14.2 afr), at one point in the mountains of WV we both averaged close to 50 mpg for the tank (150+ miles).  The interesting thing was the day before my bike only got around 38 on a tank after getting some bad gas in south eastern KY.  Her bike averaged got about 3 mpg better during that tank, so I'm assuming that my knock retard was active during that particular run. 

[wolf_59]

Just out of curiosity what is your MAP and TP% when you are running over 65mph compared to what it is 65 mph and below?
Just did a 95 upgrade on my 06 ultra with Andrews 37 cams vtuned where it looked pretty good and rode 2 up about 90 miles south and coming back sure was glad to see the trading post about 15 miles from town avg 33.3 mpg 

[Thumper Buttercup]

At 64 my map is 56.5 and my tp% is 18.2.

At 75 my map is 54.6 and my tp% is 19.5.

Bike is doing great at 65-67 mph but when we get
into the 75-77 that is where we get into problems.

[mayor]

At 64 my map is 56.5 and my tp% is 18.2.

At 75 my map is 54.6 and my tp% is 19.5.

Bike is doing great at 65-67 mph but when we get
into the 75-77 that is where we get into problems.

you are looking at too narrow of a range.  During data recording -009, your typical MAP was 50-70 at 75-76 mph with a variation in tps from 15-27%:


I'll see if I can dig up some 65 mph stuff.... 

[wolf_59]

not much difference there pretty much rules out my thoughts  if I figure out whats going on with mine I'll let you know
I'm running more like 70+ map and 25 - 40 tp% 1 up vtuning, I'm going to look over my last Vtune to see if I can get a better grasp of it

[mayor]

got a data recording you could wolf?

[Thumper Buttercup]

I know Mike, I took a quick look and got what figures showed on the
data run.  Give me a break I just finished crawling out of a tractor,
moved about 200 yards of gravel and dirt today.

Forgot to close the page that is why it looked like I was here all day.

[Thumper Buttercup]

not much difference there pretty much rules out my thoughts  if I figure out whats going on with mine I'll let you know
I'm running more like 70+ map and 25 - 40 tp% 1 up vtuning, I'm going to look over my last Vtune to see if I can get a better grasp of it

Hey wolf,

    Kim and I do it all two up, she is a trooper, but we wanted it tuned the way we ride.

I've got a plan, keep tuned to see if it works or we are rebuilding our engine

[wolf_59]

I've been trying the same cal as you have, Before I did the O2 conversion I was running the BMJ141 cal set AFR to 13.5 across the board and rode the bike to Sturgis and back solo 2300 mi. mpg averaged 40 - 44, I've noticed that riding 2 up usually get about the same mpg +/- 2 mpg

Mayor - I haven't done a data run yet just vtunes

My apologies I am running the CPZ 176 cal at this time, yesterday I got 35.7 mpg while vtuning but that is not a real indication on what it should be during normal riding

[lonewolf]

I've been trying the same cal as you have, Before I did the O2 conversion I was running the BMJ141 cal set AFR to 13.5 across the board and rode the bike to Sturgis and back solo 2300 mi. mpg averaged 40 - 44, I've noticed that riding 2 up usually get about the same mpg +/- 2 mpg

How well were the ve tables calibrated?

[mayor]

I am running the CPZ 176 cal at this time, yesterday I got 35.7 mpg while vtuning but that is not a real indication on what it should be during normal riding

I agree, there were times during my vtune runs where I was averaging around 31 mpg. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

Doing our vtunes we averaged about 34-37 mpg.

Wolf, what is your setup, ours is 95, ported heads, 2 - 1 SuperTrapp Megatune with
14 disks and closed endcap, 48N cams, stock injectors and intake, stage 1 air with
Exotic airfilter.

[wolf_59]

06 Ultra 95" SE flat tops
Andrews 37b cams
  .030 gasket
stock air filter set up 
stock heads shaved .020

stock header pipes with SE Fatshots closed end caps 16 disc on right and 6 disc on left, was trying to see what effect that would have on the torque. Just not really impressed with it at this time think I'm going to try 12 or 14 on each side and just concentrate on setting the VE's   
switched out the SE stage 1 air filter back to stock after seeing that it really didn't effect tq or hp up to 4000 rpm 

[mayor]

06 Ultra ...

...stock header pipes

I'm not sure I would trust the vtune results on a '08 and earlier touring head pipe.  I think that the rear reading could easily get false readings from the front.  Did you weld the bungs, or did you install '07-'08 pipes?

[wolf_59]

I'm not sure I would trust the vtune results on a '08 and earlier touring head pipe.  I think that the rear reading could easily get false readings from the front.  Did you weld the bungs, or did you install '07-'08 pipes?

Weld
Thats one reason I was trying the odd disc set up but keep maxing out the higher tp cells mostly on the front

[glens]

I think that the rear reading could easily get false readings from the front.

I'd think "induced by the front" is a better way of phrasing it.

[mayor]

either way...I just wouldn't feel comfortable using that stsyle of head pipe on a closed loop system.  That's why there's an '09 head pipe on my closed loop '02 bagger. 

[wolf_59]

Thumper
I apologize for hijacking your thread I'll start my own

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK Busy day, Set CLB's to 720 across the board and then we went out and did 5 runs.

Runs are 30,31,32,33,34 and last cal is 35.

Bike ran great and cooler all day with temps of high 70's.

Mike we ran out of time so I did a short Data run home, we did get one knock on the
front in the data run.  Tomorrow we will do a full day of data runs.  Mike any suggestions??

Here are the Vtune sheets.

Run 30


Run 31


Run 32


Run 33


Run 34


All the runs are in a new box.net folder below, scandata was #10 on the way home.

http://www.box.net/shared/3prbfqzpxfb8cmf1r1ct

[Thumper Buttercup]

I forgot to add this knock was coming out of a small town and doing easy acceleration.

[mayor]

this wasn't exactly easy to read, you MAP is quite random:

normally I would say this is likely a timing issue, but you haven't had timing being pulled here before.....so I'm leaning towards a VE issue. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

How did you get that graph so big???  You think I should run this tomorrow as is
and do a long data run??  Could this have been a fluke, it only happened once,
we accelerated again later in the ride and it did not happen again .

[mayor]

to view an isolated part of the graph, hold in the right mouse button as you group around the area you want to view then release.  When you want to go back to the full graph, hit restore graph. 

yea, run a longer data run and see what that tells you.  You may want to make sure that the VE values on your calibration matches the ve values on your last vtune ve's for 2250 and 2500 at 15%.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK that is handy, now checked the Vtune numbers and the last cal and they match.  But
the front cylinder 15% 2250 rpm was a 2-5% change to 104.5.

I'm seeing a lot of places on our VE's where they go up and down then up again.

We'll run tomorrow and report back.

Thanks Mike.

Mark & Kim

[glens]

I'm seeing a lot of places on our VE's where they go up and down then up again.

It's like almost every time when brushing your teeth you see a moustache hair that needs attention.

This is exactly why I fail to understand folks who take a perfectly good closed-loop system and tune it, then leave it, all open-loop.  Things change a little day to day, even throughout the day.  Why not want to have a system that can attend to those needs whenever they arise?  (that's a rhetorical question)

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK Mike,

   This was not our day, We loaded up our Cal 036, this one we blended for today,
we'll it shows a lot of knocking, we never heard it, bike ran cooler, MPG was not
the greatest but we were running in a headwind we got 38.9.

This one is ScanData-011  Running Cal 036


So we ended up having lunch and no Wi-Fi to load our stuff up.  So we drop back to
Cal 025, this is the one we ran last week and got 43 mpg and then low 30's running
the interstate.

So we did a run to Fargo, this run was 67+ the whole way got 40.4 mpg bike ran
hot, a lot of heat coming off the engine temps were the low 80's with a crosswind.

ScanData-012  Running Cal 25  We got some pinging in this one also.

Last run was up the interstate with a big tail wind, bike was still hot.

StanData-013  Running Cal 25  Still pinging in low speed work.

Kim and I both feel the bike ran a lot cooler with Cal 36 but at this point don't
know which one to tweak.  Maybe you can see something going on in Cal 25 that
is causing us low MPG on the interstate, or causing excess heat off the engine.

I loaded up the Calabrations 25 & 36 and the ScanData files 11,12,13 in a new
folder on Box.net.

http://www.box.net/shared/353xm7jald5aspbgc270

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK, I'm looking at the data and this bike does not like the Map at upper 50's and 60's.

It's funny that the first two runs only the rear knocked, and the last run the front knocked.

Anyone know a good tuner in the ND/MN area .  We've rode 2000 miles since
8/26/11 tuning the bike, I though we were close but I don't think so.


This run was a new Cal -036 that we did 5 vtune runs on yesterday.  We changed the CLB tables
to 720 trying to get a little more MPG.

ScanData 11


These two runs were with the old -025 Cal, we thought we had this one done also.  The CLB
tables are 759 on this one, the ride last week we took with it got us 43+ mpg running up to
the upper 60's for speed but dropped to the low 30's on the interstate at 77 mph.

ScanData 12


ScanData 13


So I need to pull timing in these areas that I'm knocking, I don't think this is a AF problem
being it is happening on both calibrations.


Steve, Mike, do I play with the timing, it looks like the -036 Cal was cooler better running
for us today, but it was a windy day tough one to make a lot of data on.

If you look at the data look at how cool the engine was during that ride, the second ride
it stayed somewhat cool because of the crosswind.

Is there a real good link for working up the timing on the TTS??

[mayor]

Anyone know a good tuner in the ND/MN area .  We've rode 2000 miles since
8/26/11 tuning the bike, I though we were close but I don't think so.

Hang in there.  We'll get it figured out.

Kim and I both feel the bike ran a lot cooler with Cal 36 but at this point don't
know which one to tweak.  Maybe you can see something going on in Cal 25 that
is causing us low MPG on the interstate, or causing excess heat off the engine.

it looked like the timing was exactly the same for both, so the only difference was afr related (CLB, VE's and open loop afr settings).  I'll try to look over the recordings today to see if anything pops out.

[mayor]

Mark and Kim, if you want to go for a ride today.....do not take your computer, do not do any data recordings or vtuning.  Give me a chance to review that data that you just recorded. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike don't bust your butt,

We are into high winds the rest of the week here, bike is parked right now, we'll
get some pre-winter work done so if a good day comes we will ride later.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in both Cal's we are seeing the knock happening at the same
rpm map area.  It seems that just above 2000 to just over 2400 rpm and the map
being 58 to the upper 60's is when this keeps happening.   We are leaning on working
with the 36 cal with the CLB's in the 720's, the bike ran cooler and sounded better
there.

We'll get there, just a little mad at myself for not doing a data run last week on that
ride, we would have seen this sooner then.

[Steve Cole]

One thing to be careful of is not to get too carried away with things. Your going to get a little knock once in awhile, it happens. The thing to look at is how much and how often. If you cannot repeat it and it happens only occasionally and it's 4 deg or less I would not be chasing it. While it never hurts to refine things some times its best to back away from chasing these once in a while things as that's just why the system is in place to handle it for you.

[mayor]

Maybe I'm wrong, but in both Cal's we are seeing the knock happening at the same
rpm map area.  It seems that just above 2000 to just over 2400 rpm and the map
being 58 to the upper 60's is when this keeps happening.   

the first thing I noticed with scandata-011 was this:

The bulk of the knock retard is happening from 55-75 kPa around 2,400 rpm.   I agree with Steve about not chasing every little tick, but this particular example shows a distinct pattern that we should address.  I think we are just trying to get the engine to take more timing than the knock retard will agree too. 

We'll get there, just a little mad at myself for not doing a data run last week on that
ride, we would have seen this sooner then.

sometimes you have to slow down to go faster.    have patience, your tune is not that far off.  If you look at the above scan data chart, all of the knock retard events happended within 400 rpm's of each other.  It really does just look scarier than it is. 

We are leaning on working with the 36 cal with the CLB's in the 720's, the bike ran cooler and sounded better
there.   

I attached a cal-037 for you to try which is a timing corrected version of cal 36

We'll move towards getting no knock retard, then we'll move on towards increasing milage at 70-75 mph

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Mike, Steve,

   I guess it's just been too long a year for us at times, and I'm feeling the crunch
of winter coming here.  Hoping to get this good enough to ride down for Myrtle Beach
in the spring and let you take the beast for a spin down there in person.

Thanks again for all the hard work guys.


Mark & Kim

[mayor]

you sheduling for MB bike week by any chance?  Trish and I will be riding down again for bike week, we've got a little shorter trip though (600 miles). 

[Thumper Buttercup]

I'm the road supervisor here, if we don't get major spring flooding we will ride out of here the beginning
of May and ride down, spend some time at Roanoke then ride down Myrtle Beach then ride back up to
Roanoke Va and spend some more time with my Dad and Mom.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Steve, I read where you are helping the other guy with his timing, and your
quote was this.

"You have a few cells with more timing than I find necessary. On twin cam engines I have never found they need more than 45 degrees anywhere. I would take a first cut at reducing those cells above 45 to 45 and then see how it rides."

I'm looking at our timing tables and we are above 45 degrees in a few places, do we need to
address this yet.

Front


Rear

[Steve Cole]

If your feeling surging in those areas then I would reduce it. Like I said I have never found where a BT engine needs over 45 degrees but that does not mean there isn't a combination that might like it.

[mayor]

Some of those light MAP timing tables were more advanced than they are now on that particular base map, I actually reduced them to those settings.  I thought about reducing them to 45 (I share Steve's opinion on 45 being the most that's really needed on a TC), but decided to just leave them at 45 1/2 max since some were already there.   In this particular case, I doubt that the extra 1/2 degree (45 1/2 compared to 45) is detrimental in any way to how the bike runs.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

When we were running the 025 cal the other day we were getting
surging at around 2000-2200.  We'll see how it goes, will work on
getting a run and see if we got no knocking first.

Thanks guys.

[mayor]

I reduced a full degree on cal-037 (from the -025 and -036 timing settings) at 50 and 60 kPa at 2k rpm


edit....forgot to mention I was only referring to the rear cylinder.   

[Thumper Buttercup]

Doing some data runs, here is the first for today, will do interstate next.  Fillup this morning was about
30 mpg with us running home at 70mph.

Here is the link to the first run for data.  More to come.

http://www.box.net/shared/ymjuqk0yxbparbd4p0fd

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK,

   Got out some more, we ended up for the day about 36.5 mpg with these data runs.

First I've got a question, are the knocks temp related??  We took off on this run and
you will see when we hit the interstate boy did the front and rear knock, this was
getting around a semi after the on ramp and I hit it pretty good to get around him.
Then the run did great on a get off and taking off again then again towards the end
accelerating for a 65 mph area we got hit again.

Again all of these events we are not feeling anything different or hearing anything
different.

Here is the last data run.

First Event



Second Event










Data Run 15
http://www.box.net/shared/1hjgnsu6eeomau3n53r6

[mayor]

First I've got a question, are the knocks temp related?? 

maybe....but let's not get ahead of what the data is saying. Unless I missed it, I didn't see any knock retards on datarun -014 so that's a good start.  From what I'm seeing on data recording -015, there only a couple of areas giving you fits.   

I made it to the first knock retard, and I can tell you this is the first time I've seen the much full throttle on one of your data runs. That said, don't be surprised when knock retard events pop up when areas are hit for the first time.  Based on how low the timing was when the knock retard happened, I suspect that the ve's are off here:

go back through and look at your vtune run ve's and see if your 3,500 - 4,500 ve's at 60-100% tps look right (this is open loop territory, so see what the auto-extend data looks like...but keep in mind, there's no guarantee that those values are right). 

I'm fairly certain that the temps had nothing to do with the above.     I'm still working on the other knock retard events....

[Thumper Buttercup]

Ok,

   The first run I was behaving myself, and just trying to hit the different
area's in the lower to 70 mph rpm's.

   The second run I was having fun hitting the throttle, it warmed up to the
low 70's and I was hitting her pretty hard and running the rpms out to
above 5000.

Kim's complaint of whiplash tonight the way I was romping around, must
have been the full moon .

[Thumper Buttercup]

I'm looking back to vtune #33 at 5:43pm we were running 71.4 throttle and
96.7 map, it showed AFR at 13.9, front ve 96 rear ve 95.

So looking at the ready 37, at 4000 rpm and tps 40 up extended being 96.0 on the front
and 98.5 on the rear.

My afr shows 13.5-13.2 in that area to the right of the closed loop area.

[mayor]

those afr values are not your actual, but rather your desired AFR.  The VE's are used to determine the desired, if they (the ve's) are not right the desired will not be actual.  I find it very unlikely that your cams are falling out of steam at 3k, so the ve's likely shouldn't being falling after that rpm (but rather ~4k).   

[mayor]

OK, here's what I saw:
throttle's going up, ve's going down, but there's also a high amount of timing being ran at 70 kpa....so this one's a toss up


throttle's going up, ve's had a huge drop....also open loop occured in this area...I'd try increasing the ve's


this is an area that should be firmly in closed loop..this one is likely timing....but if it were me I would adjust ve's too.   

[mayor]

I attached two cals for you to try, -038 is modified based on the above info and -039 is -038 with the ve's reduced where I suspected the ve's were too high on the front at 25-100% tps at 2,500 and 2,750.  I'll be curious to see if the milage doesn't improve, and if the knock retard remains in active (meaning not lean). 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

Sounds like a plan for Friday and Saturday,

Kim and I were looking at that data and trying to figure out what happened the
first time, we had a semi coming out on our right with all the traffic in the right
lane, we moved over ( I hate being near a semi ) and I was giving it a little more
throttle, well he speeds up and looks at us like he was going to do a squeeze play,
and that was when I hit it hard to get in front of him.

Let's just say I was very motivated at the time.  Thanks Mike.

[wolf_59]

What effect would the Intake Air Temp have on the tune ? Fuel economy?
I was looking at your data runs yesterday and notice that your IAT are really low compared to what mine run for comparison engine temp 253* my IAT is usually in the 120* range the lowest I have seen was at 40* outside and engine temps 217* and IAT 100*
where i see your IAT stays in 80-90* range with engine temps in the 230-260*
Just thinking out loud again

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey wolf,

    I'm running an open filter "Exotic" with no cover and it's a big one trying to
get better air to the engine, that could be causing some of it.




    If you look at some of my older runs on the hot days we do get some heat
still.  My question on the knocking was that our morning started cooler 60 degrees
and we had no knocking and it warmed up in the afternoon and the then we did
have some knocking.

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll, Kim did not feel well but wanted to ride anyway so we did things
a bit differently.  We put in 102 miles but the data locked up a few miles
short of our run.  I went with the 039 cal Mike, looks like it did good, now
we were riding in some wind and we kept the bike under 3000 rpms
except where we romped on it trying to induce a knock.

We used 2.67 gal in the 102 miles so we averaged 38.2 mpg.  No real surprises
in the graphs to me.  I tried to duplicate our run a couple times where we
knocked yesterday but did not happen.  So far so good.





ScanData 016
http://www.box.net/shared/21p3s6dzydzzogoaysgu

[Steve Cole]

So your still getting out and riding the bike and it's running pretty well. Are we having fun yet?

[wolf_59]

  nice looking filter setup, I was running the SE filter with the stock football cover and switched back to the stock setup never seen much difference in the IAT from one to another, interesting that there is that much difference in IAT with your setup. I'm just keeping an eye on this thread to see how everything works out there has been a lot of useful information being shared
I'm a little slow still was thinking on the fuel milage issue

[Thumper Buttercup]

So your still getting out and riding the bike and it's running pretty well. Are we having fun yet?

We'll I did have the radio cranked today and would peak at the monitor to make sure
I was still getting data every now and then.  Felt good to look at the data and not find
a knock.

Feel like we are getting close.

[mayor]

I was talking to one of our pro's offline, and he suggested trying less timing to see if that doesn't help with milage.  This makes sense, since you're running hi rates of timing and the milage isn't really coming around.  I'm actually am running less timing in my 48 bike, so I copied the timing that I'm running onto cal -039.   try cal-040 when you get a chance. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Thumper Buttercup]

I was talking to one of our pro's offline, and he suggested trying less timing to see if that doesn't help with milage.  This makes sense, since you're running hi rates of timing and the milage isn't really coming around.  I'm actually am running less timing in my 48 bike, so I copied the timing that I'm running onto cal -039.   try cal-040 when you get a chance.

Sound good to me, I just told Kim she has to ride again and got my manhood threatened .
Looks like Sunday or so for us, this will be a 55 degree day.   Once more into the breach.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Mike,

  Should this be a data run or should I Vtune again??

[mayor]

just go for a ride, no computer....see if milage changes...if it does, then we will regroup from there.  Report back on engine smoothness (as felt in floorboards, etc.), and throttle response too

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll,

   My dead weight test dummy did not feel well , so I took off by myself
today for the ride.  I know you said no computer but I wanted to know what
was going on.

Beautiful day in the upper 50's with light wind.  I did 141.7 miles 3.4 gal for 41.67 mpg.
Not bad for being alone on the bike and running 65 mph most of the time.

I did get a couple hits the first ride today just two degrees on the front.

Bike ran smooth all day no problems.

Scan 17


Scan 18


DataLogs are 17 & 18 here.
http://www.box.net/shared/e80jmspdy0c3o0i79nbx

[Steve Cole]

If Kim is willing and you can do a similar type ride with her in similar conditions and log the data on the same calibration. Then compare the two runs and see where and how much things change. This may give you some help in chasing better mileage and pinging on your combination.

One thing for sure is you are now hooked on wanting to see what is really going on with your bike and understand why things do what they do. Now look back at what you did before all this on your bike.

[Thumper Buttercup]

There is so much there, that I find myself looking back at the runs
and thinking of what I was doing and what the bike did doing it.

I had two lockups today and just stopped the bike and turned on my
trackball and hit stop and start and it took off again with no problems.

I've got my old SERT hookup and want to use that cable and see if
I can get it though the hole in the trunk.  That way the whole system
is hardwired into the bike and ready to use.

This weekend we are supposed to hit 55 if the winds are light we will
run this again and see what we get for data.

The VA did a procedure on the 19th last month on Kim and screwed her
up, it's still messing with her but she is feeling better tonight.  We'll
get there.

Still a lot to learn on this for me, Mike did good with the changes he
did.

[Steve Cole]

Yes, it's a lot of data to look through but what your looking for is to see what changes Kim adds to the running of the bike. Mainly look at the RPM ranges you operate in along with the TPS and MAP values. This will give you and idea of how additional load is going to effect the bike. If you had the trailer handy that would be a great test to run if Kim not up to it.