HD now has Hydra chain conversion kit!

[tomp]

http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448773018&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302491575&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302491575&bmUID=1232988551984&bmLocale=en_US

[Don D]

Fine and dandy, now they need to support with cams that work in those years if they are going to be a turn key solution. Some folks use and have decent results with the SE cams.
Maybe they are offering these ?

[crow]

So if I am reading the information on Harley's site this kit just changes the tensioners to the new style for 99-01 models and not the new roller chain? That you get a plate, oil pump, and tensioners?
I think the need a complete upgrade for the older bikes that contains everything needed...

[harleywood]

It's not entirely clear what chain(s) you would end up with, nor what series of cams-early or late-that you would use after the change. Is the spacer kit needed for the early cams? It is not a very well written description.

[Don D]

I think thats right
The older link belt chain cams used with the new roller chain setup for 02-06 and the earlier (cam position sensor) motors use the original chain on the front and the roller rear?
It is very unclear.

[Don D]

We need some help from the instruction sheet GURU
Fatboy Sir Garfield

[Sonny S.]

99-01 uses a cam position sensor. Andrews offers a rear cam gear for the roller conversion and very likely has the pattent on it.
You can buy the gear from Andrews or if you use a DTT ingnition with carbed bikes it bypasses the cam sensor.

[smoserx1]

99-01 uses a cam position sensor.

Exactly, and that requires a trigger ring be made into the rear cam sprocket (the raised semi circle you see in so many of the older ones).  It is clearly missing in the illustration.  So, looks like you have to use your old sprocket and hence your old front chain.

[Don D]

And the rear chain?

[Sonny S.]

99-01 uses a cam position sensor.

Exactly, and that requires a trigger ring be made into the rear cam sprocket (the raised semi circle you see in so many of the older ones).  It is clearly missing in the illustration.  So, looks like you have to use your old sprocket and hence your old front chain.

.....or use the Andrews gear

[harleywood]

It appears from reading the instructions, you retain the old style inside chain, but are updating the tensioner.

[harleywood]

The spacer is needed to switch to the roller primary chain

[smoserx1]

If you look at the illustration real good it looks like the shoe is significantly wider than the front chain.  I am guessing the sell one kt, and you can replace the front sprockets and chain on 02-06.  I bet all of them retain the old inner chain.  Otherwise new cams would be required and there is no mention of these.

[Don D]

Sounds reasonable both cost wise and function. Not sure how the link belt chain will marry with the urethane (my assumption) tensioners.

[harleywood]

On the 99-01, you retain the old style gear/chain for the cam sensor. Therefore you do not need the additional spacer. On the 02-06, you use the additional spacer to compensate for the difference in the primary chain/gear width. The inside chain all stays as original with the exception of the updated hydraulic tensioner, cam plate and oil pump.   

[harleywood]

One of these will likely find it's way on my bike....Now where is that tax refund....

[Sonny S.]

Before Ralph left Andrews he said he tried a hyd. tensioner with the old style chain set up, and it worked fine. Said that used or polished chains worked best. No longevity testing was completed at that point. Maybe HD did thier homework.
So this plate still uses the bearing style cams ?

I've installed 3 conversions on 99-01 cam sensor models and just bought the Andrews gear...NBD.

[Admiral Akbar]

Uhm,, This looks pretty simple to me..

Uses an morse driven cams with splines. Stock bearings. Morse chain inside. Roller outside (shown)  unless you need the cam postion sensor then use the stock morse on the outside.  Heck I've got some chain Crane 314s I might try some day with this.. Max

[Sonny S.]

Uhm,, This looks pretty simple to me..

Uses an morse driven cams with splines. Stock bearings. Morse chain inside. Roller outside (shown)  unless you need the cam postion sensor then use the stock morse on the outside.  Heck I've got some chain Crane 314s I might try some day with this.. Max

Show off !!   

[Billy]

I expect those would be fine for a set of silent chain cams where roller chain cams aren't available for that particular grind, otherwise I would prefer the roller chains and cams with plain metal bearings.

MoCo's MSRP $429.95, I'd bet the roller conversion from Herko would be comparable $$.

[Don D]

Never got too interested in HD chain drive enough to check cam timing but with cars the morse chains stretch over time and change the cam timing. I too like the roller chain better but this upgrade does have a place.

[Admiral Akbar]

Uhm,, This looks pretty simple to me..

Uses an morse driven cams with splines. Stock bearings. Morse chain inside. Roller outside (shown)  unless you need the cam postion sensor then use the stock morse on the outside.  Heck I've got some chain Crane 314s I might try some day with this.. Max

Show off !!   

Well I cheated, had a chance to talk to the guy that was designing the tensioners, he was a friend of Dave Brode.. This started out using morse chains but as Don says they can stretch some based on the way they are made. They can be made so they stretch less but the cost goes up.. Things go real quiet when HD started getting interested so I would have expected minor tweeks to the design.

Max

[road-dawgs1]

See attached

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Faast Ed]

It says spacers required for installation, but says nothing about needing special cams to make it fit. 

Interesting.

[Don D]

No cam change is required. I am wondering if outer bearings are used. It appears they abandon those, or do they?

[harleywood]

It retains the original bearings...

[Don D]

Thanks!

[harleywood]

 

[seminolebagger]

I wonder if you used the Andrews gear with the cam sensor for 99-01 if you could use the roller chain on the outside.



SB

[Don D]

I'll bet you could but I would not expect HD to be revealing that. They seem to be voraciously trying to devour the gear drive crowd at the moment.

[96FLSTF]

I was actually in the process of taking mine apart today to check mine and pretty much assuming I would replace them straight up with the oem type & nothin fancy in between. For the record below is mine found today just at 30K on the clock, a 2005, 95" with 203 cams done at delivery when new. Been using Mobile 1 since 1st oil change with frequent oil changes. After seeing this post my local dealer agreed to take my OEM tensioners back and swap for the SE upgrade they already had one on the way (Was gonna be for the parts guy's bike, but he said I could have it since he's in no hurry) I should have it in my hands by this Wednesday or Thursday.

Below is a couple pics of the outer tensioner. Since it was bad enough to call it replacement time I didn't take any pictures of the inner yet (Although I will when it comes out)

Gene

[fxrp]

HD is disounting their kit a little from assembling the '06 parts required yourself, but not much. For the less than $100 difference I will continue to use my kit (like herko's). Stock plate (not billet), roller chain (primary & secondary), no questions.

Paul

[seminolebagger]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.


SB

[smoserx1]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.

About $65 each retail.  Zanotti has then for about $44 each.  Service kit with bearings & gaskets is $50-60 more.  The new stuff mentioned here sounds good. 

[96FLSTF]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.


SB

Lookin at my receipt, the tensioners were $58.63 each and the Cam Gasket Service Kit 17045-99c was $62.95.
I was told that the tensioners used to be about $40 until recently.

Gene

[Tsani]

Basically harley just is offering a fix to their screwup and selling as an upgrade. They are just rying to cash in on what the aftermarket crowd realized. And of course, they are a little late. Comparing what they are offering, the setup Herko puts together is very competative and in my opinion gives you more bang for the buck. I mean what the heck, if you are going to do all that may as well change the cams!

[Admiral Akbar]

No cam change is required. I am wondering if outer bearings are used. It appears they abandon those, or do they?

Though you may have figured this out.. It has a bearing retainer plate so it does need bearings.. In that case I'd assume that you need a roller rear.. Maybe even more so than the old style.  Max.

[FSG]

Instructions in

HarleyTechTalk > Documents & FAQ's > Instruction Sheets that have been found > HD > Instructions > Instruction Sheets 

-J04804  25284-08, HYBRID CAM PLATE AND HIGH FLOW OIL PUMP KIT     

Spacer Kit 25285-08 contains:

25717-00 SPACER, .327
25719-00 SPACER, .317
25721-00 SPACER, .307
25725-00 SPACER, .337

[Billy]

Looking at the pic in the link from the first post, I see the MoCo doesn't use a chain guide on the outer chain for this new setup, I wonder how much this will effect cam timing, if any. Also the outer tensioner sure puts a sharp bend in that strand of chain.

Me still like the roller conversion.

[Don D]

I don't think there should be any discussion or debate that the full roller conversion and a conversion cam is a better choice.
If a user was going to do just tensioners this is for him and it is 400 dollars VS 650 rough numbers or 120 plus gaskets to go back with the old tensioners.

[crow]

I just looked at the instruction sheet for this kit. here is step 20.

20. Install the splined sprocket onto the rear camshaft.
For 1999 - 2000 Dyna, 2000 Softail, 1999 - 2000 Touring,
and 2001 EFI Touring models only:
These vehicles will retain the original style primary cam
chain and sprockets, to work with the camshaft position
sensor. The roller style chain and sprockets in THIS kit
are to be discarded.


Why don't they make 2 kits. I hate to pay for parts that they are telling me to discard.
I looked at the part numbers and googled them for prices. They are having us discard
over $60 in parts.   I would like to see a 99-01 kit minus these parts with a price at least
that much lower...

[smoserx1]

Why don't they make 2 kits. I hate to pay for parts that they are telling me to discard.

Probably cost them more to market 2 kits.  Instead of this, why don't they just make the rear cam sprocket with the trigger ring in it for the roller chain as well.  That way it would work with anything.  Is it hurting anything to use a trigger ring on a setup without a cam position sensor?  Also, I read once you could replace a 99-01 ECM with an 02 ECM and get rid of the cam position sensor.  Anyone know if that is true or not?  I just had to replace my ECM about 3 months ago, it would have been a fine time to do this if what I read is true.  One nice thing about this setup is it looks like you could replace the secondary tensioner without having to press out the cams from the plate.  Anyway you wing this deal, you end up with a Morse chain on the inside, and they are supposedly rough compared to rollers.  I'm kind of like some of you others, if you are going to this extent, you might be better off with the Herko/Andrews setup so you will have ALL roller chains, and NO front bearings to screw up.

[nc-renegade]

If I'm going through all this, then I'm going to spend the extra $$ on a cam and go with a true conversion kit.  You still have to deal with the bearings and the inside morse chain.  If I did do this "conversion" on a 99-01, I would go with the Andrew's sproket with trigger ring so as to have the front a roller chain...but that's an extra $50.

This is a knudge from all appearances....just to save buying a cam.

[fxrp]

I don't think there should be any discussion or debate that the full roller conversion and a conversion cam is a better choice.
If a user was going to do just tensioners this is for him and it is 400 dollars VS 650 rough numbers or 120 plus gaskets to go back with the old tensioners.

I know prices have gone up some since I put my roller conversion list together but I have $458 without a cam service kit. If you buy the gasket kit (which you don't need most of) cost would be about about $528. If you just get the cam cover gasket and the few orings you need and upgrade to Torrington inner bearings you'll be well under $500.

I don't know what Herko sells his kit for.

You don't get the secondary roller chain in either case, you don't use the primary roller chain for the early models, why would you want to use the HD kit?

Herko, you out there?

Paul

[fxrp]

I just got to the shop and checked prices, I find no increases on the roller chain conversion parts. So I figured all the parts for a complete swap out for '06 parts, added the cam cover gasket, 2 small orings, 1 large oring for the oil pump spigot, and 2 Torrington inner cam bearings and I come up with a total of $458.

The HD kit is $448 so for $10 more you can have a complete conversion instead of HDs half a$$ed kit.

I wonder if you used the Andrews gear with the cam sensor for 99-01 if you could use the roller chain on the outside.
SB

Yes you can

www.andrewsproducts.com/motorcycle/cams/T88_99_Conv_install_Kit.htm

[tomp]

I need clarification on a few questions I have:

-With the new HD kit for a 02-04 TC, my assumption is that you use the old original chain driven cams. Do you need to replce the gears on the cams to the gears made for a roller chain? Notice the late model cams have thinner gears.

-With the Andrews conversion kit, don't you have to use specialty cams made just for this conversion?

[02FYRFTR]

No thanks, I'll keep my S&S geard driven cams and welded flywheel assembly.  Might be a little noise but if I wanted peace and quiet, I would have bought a Honda/BMW.

[smoserx1]

-With the new HD kit for a 02-04 TC, my assumption is that you use the old original chain driven cams. Do you need to replce the gears on the cams to the gears made for a roller chain? Notice the late model cams have thinner gears.

For an 02-06, you would replace the outer (primary) sprocket with the thinner roller chain sprocket.  For 99-01 models, you have to reuse the old thicker sprocket and outer Morse chain, unless you get a roller chain sprocket with a trigger ring, which HD apparently does not have.  For the inner (secondary) gears and chains you retain the old Morse chain here in all cases, as these sprockets are made onto HD cams (I believe), and cannot be changed.

-With the Andrews conversion kit, don't you have to use specialty cams made just for this conversion?

Yes, in this case, Andrews and maybe one or 2 other companies make a cam with roller chain capability for both primary & secondary, but retain the smaller cam end that goes into the inner needle bearings.  Stock HD cams won't work in this case without special custom machining, way beyond the scope of easy bolt in retrofits.  This is why some of us here are pessimistic about this new kit, because you can't get rid of the Morse chain for the secondary cam drive, and that rough-ass chain may be the biggest wear factor of all, on any kind of tensioner.  We really don't know how good the new secondary tensioner will exist with the Morse chain.  It may do really well, and again it may not.  With the full conversion you get rid of the both Morse chains plus the outer ball & roller bearings as well, eliminating most areas of concern.

[fxrp]

Well said, smoserx1. I think you'll see more 'conversion' cams available. IIRC Woods are now available for a conversion, but I think Bobby is machining them in house to order.

Paul

[Herko]

"Herko, you out there?"
"I don't know what Herko sells his kit for."

The kit I sell is complete. It's my own kit and has many more items than the lists or kits mentioned below. The idea was/is no extra trips needed to the dealer or even the hardware store. It uses conversion cams and incorporates the new system and roller chains...primary and secondary. Feedback on this kit has been excellent. "The Original" Herko kit.
Sells in the mid $400's.

Also by request, there's an abridged kit I started selling to some shops...close to the the Andrews "list".
Can sell this dealer kit to forum members in the low $300's.

For more info and PDF's on the above: send direct email to herko at insightbb dot com Thanks.

Also new in the Conversion Kit arena this month...
Before now (Jan 09) Andrews never sold a conversion "kit" per say. They had the lists on their websites and it was a common misconception that they did in fact sell a kit. They kindly referred their kit inquiries to me.
And as you may know, AP sells to dealers/distributors but not to retail customers.

As of Jan 09:
AP p/n 2889902 Conversion Cam Kit: 2002-2006 Model Years (Except '06 Dyna) retail $483.00
AP p/n 288999 Conversion Cam Kit: 1999-2001 Model Years retail $534.54
These kits are the Andrews list with an added cam cover gasket.
The 288999 has the AP p/n 216015 34T sprocket with trigger ring.

Cheers,
Herko

[PoorUB]

This is a knudge from all appearances....just to save buying a cam.

I think you are forgetting that the large share of riders out there would consider putting in HD's kit, and the old cams back in. My bet is 3/4ths of the riders out there just ride, and could care less for another 10-20 HP. I was quite content with my "stock" Ultra, and only did the Andrews cams, and extra engine work because I had the bike apart to get rid of the cheesy tensioners. I would have seriously thought about this set up if it had come out a couple months ago!
Save $250 for cams and run the stockers? I may have!

[Faast Ed]

Ub is right. Many out there would be happy to shed the crappy tensioners and keep everything else.

[fxrp]

"Herko, you out there?"
"I don't know what Herko sells his kit for."

The kit I sell is complete. It's my own kit and has many more items than the lists or kits mentioned below. The idea was/is no extra trips needed to the dealer or even the hardware store. It uses conversion cams and incorporates the new system and roller chains...primary and secondary. Feedback on this kit has been excellent. "The Original" Herko kit.
Sells in the mid $400's.

Sounds like the kit/list I put together for conversions. I don't try to sell the kit just keep all the parts around for builds I do. My charge for the parts needed is $458 w/o cams.

BTW I talked to Bob Wood today, the popular Wood grinds will be available as roller conversion cams in about three weeks. He said any of his other grinds could be machined in-house for $100.

Paul

[Herko]

Well, so far in the ready-made conversion cams:

Andrews
Kuryakyn (Wild Things)
T-Man
and now Wood

Now all the positives of the hydra-chain set up can be spread over a wider variety of cam choices.

[BVHOG]

Honestly, this looks like a half assed effort to fix a problem they created by not doing it right the first time, do the entire conversion kit or simply put  a set of stock tensioners in every 25 thousand or so. I have taken many stock bikes apart to find the outer cam bearings have been spinning in the plate at one time or the other, this kit does absolutely nothing to address that. This whole thing looks like backyard engineering to me, and a poor job of it at that.

[nc-renegade]

Save $250 for cams and run the stockers? I may have!

I hear you, but this kit is a knudge and is not proven.

[Jeffd]

I guess one advantage is that the cams would not need to be pulled to replace the inner tensioner.  I am glad I have low run out and can keep running my gear drives.  maybe the retainer plate is heavier like the S&S to keep the bearings from spinning in the plate..

[fxrp]

Honestly, this looks like a half assed effort to fix a problem they created by not doing it right the first time, do the entire conversion kit or simply put  a set of stock tensioners in every 25 thousand or so. I have taken many stock bikes apart to find the outer cam bearings have been spinning in the plate at one time or the other, this kit does absolutely nothing to address that. This whole thing looks like backyard engineering to me, and a poor job of it at that.

They're not trying to fix anything, just cash in on a trend started by someone else's innovation.

[tomp]

Wouldn't it be possible for HD to now come out with a bearing race to retro-fit the new style cams in the old TC cases? Either this, or a case bearing retrofit with smaller races? Wouldn't these options allow for the use of the roller chain on the inner?

[Admiral Akbar]

If you go that route, might as well go with the Herko kit. Probably cheaper. Nothing wrong with the plain bearing setup. In fact it's better than the ball and roller setup. Max.

[tomp]

Some of us want off-the-shelf cam selection and availability without having to pay extra for them to be custom ground.

[ViennaHog]

Not so sure about the long term reliability. My previous Ultra at 16,000 miles bone stock cam chest.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ViennaHog]

cam plate bore, same bike

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[smoserx1]

Wouldn't it be possible for HD to now come out with a bearing race to retrofit the new style cams in the old TC cases? Either this, or a case bearing retrofit with smaller races? Wouldn't these options allow for the use of the roller chain on the inner?

The problem with this is the new Harley roller chain cams have a larger 1 inch rear journal whereas the older Harley Morse chain type cams have a smaller journal (I believe it is 0.875 inch).  To actually use a new Harley cam with a full conversion in an older bike, you would have to get the journal of the new cam cut down, so a 0.875 race could be pressed on.  I guess you could theoretically take your engine apart and have the 0.875 holes in the right side case half enlarged to 1 inch, and then do a full conversion and use new Harley cams, but nobody really wants to do this--we want an easy retrofit.  The conversion cams like the Andrews "N" series have roller chain sprockets for the secondary chain, outer journals designed to work in the new cam plate without bearings, but retain the smaller 0.875 inner journal so they will work on older TC engines.  For someone who prefers a stock grind, Andrews has the 12N cam for those folks.  So Herko , Andrews and now others already have all the bases covered, and you get all the benefits of the new design, not just the new tensioners and an outer-only roller chain (maybe) with this new product from Harley.  The more we really think about the new Harley product, the worse it looks to some of us!!!

[Admiral Akbar]

"Not so sure about the long term reliability."

That looks more like an assembly cleanliness problem.. Maybe what Donny says about the filter bypassing oil is true (heaven forbid   ) Max.

[Rokinrider]

 I am planning on doing one of these retrofits next month. I have a question for Herko or whoever wants to help out. How is the new style cam plate holding up or is it too soon to tell. I'm not afraid to spend extra $$ for a different cams but if I can keep my 203s and go with this HD thing WTF. On the other hand installing one without outer bearings doesn't require a press?? I just need to quit tire kicking and support Herko instead of the MOCO.

Rokin

[Don D]

Vienna
Something went through there and the tight clearance is not forgiving.

[ViennaHog]

DH,
True, and not the only documented case. It is sad to see new engines shedding metal particles that move through the internals. Was a meticulously serviced bike with extra oil changes etc.. Similar scoring in the oil pump, no visible damage in the top end, well running.Rebuild the thing with new cams, cam plate and once we were at it 103 conversion with SE ACR heads. Could probably have run with the damage for many more miles.

[ederdelyi]

>>Something went through there and the tight clearance is not forgiving<<

Yep. One would think that the assembly plant procedures as far as cleanliness would be more than adequate, but they may have gotten a liitle lax being so used to having basically nothing but ball/roller bearings to contend with. Plain bearings don't take well to having anything but oil between the bearing surfaces.

As for the original topic --- just another option. I can see pros and cons on just about any of the available options that exist. As for tensioners on a Morse chain, no big deal. It's been done on many applications. True, the HD V-twin has some unique valve train dynamics, but I for one don't see a problem with it. For the earlier bikes, both carb and EFI (except for MM EFI) that wish to use the roller primary chain setup one can either use the Andrews gear or swap the ignition module/ECM for a later version that does not use the CPS. The MM EFI relies heavily on the CPS to time the injector pulse(s), don't think there is an easy way around that.
More choices can be good. I doubt that it's a "plot" from the MOCO as some have alluded to. They could have chosen to ignore the whole thing, instead they chose to offer another option. Good for them, it's more than many other manufacturers I have dealt with over the years would have done. JMHO

[seminolebagger]

Ed,

I thought that the andrews gear had the CPS ring on it for 99-01 bikes.  They list it on the parts sheet for the roller chain conversion as required for 99-01's. 


Tim

[ederdelyi]

>>I thought that the andrews gear had the CPS ring on it for 99-01 bikes.  They list it on the parts sheet for the roller chain conversion as required for 99-01's. <<

That's correct. I guess I wrote that a little on the confusing side. For other than MM EFI, the owners of early bikes that have an ignition module or ECM that used the CPS there are two options to be able to use the roller primary chain. Change the module/ECM or use the Andrews gear. MM EFI owners would only have the option to use the Andrews gear if they wanted to use the roller primary.

I hope that makes it more clear. To be honest, I don't think it's that big a deal. I've dealt with similar tensioners and Morse chains before ... lots of high mileage vehicles out there that use the same setup ... BWTFDIK! :>) I may try one in my own bike if I get the "urge" next time I'm in the cam chest.

[axtell]

correct me if I wrong..I think some of the ignitions no longer even acknowlege the cps...I believe the DTT doesn't...Ron

[fstbgr01]

if you remove the mm efi and replace it with a carb are you still stuck with only the cam gear or can you change the ignition to a later model so that it doesn't use a cps.

[ederdelyi]

>>correct me if I wrong..I think some of the ignitions no longer even acknowlege the cps...I believe the DTT doesn't...Ron<<

Nope. you be right :>) AFAIK, unless one specifically looks for an early aftermarket ignition/ECM to accomodate the CPS all of the later editions ignore the CPS. Later SE stuff does as well, late ('02 and up) OEM ignitions and Delphi ECM's don't use it either. I suspect that both OEM and SE modules available that used to look for it don't actually use it either, but I can't say that is true for all of them. I know that I replaced a couple that were supposed to look for it and disconnecting the CPS had no effect on the operation. The MM EFI never made that transition, HD went to the Delphi system across the line at the same time the quit using the CPS.

[ederdelyi]

>>if you remove the mm efi and replace it with a carb are you still stuck with only the cam gear or can you change the ignition to a later model so that it doesn't use a cps.<<

Absolutely. See my post above. Aftermarket or OEM/SE ignition modules are available that don't use the CPS

[96FLSTF]

If I do this SE Conversion, would I still replaced BOTH inner cam bearings with the B-148s?

Gene

[Billy]

If I do this SE Conversion, would I still replaced BOTH inner cam bearings with the B-148s?

Gene

YUP!!

[Sonny S.]

In regards to ViennaHog's motor.

Just think how much trash is in that motor while the rings are seating.

[fstbgr01]

i have been looking  at the s&s ist ignition but looks like they only have it for the 2004 and2006 models siince i have replaced my mmefi with a carb would i be able to run this ignition system.

[fxrp]

Some of us want off-the-shelf cam selection and availability without having to pay extra for them to be custom ground.

Well we're getting there. Wood just got added to the list; as demand grows others will start to offer conversion cams.

Paul

[Don D]

If Wood is selling the conversion cams that's news to me and I am a dealer for him. Just bought a tw5-6 and it needed to be ground and sleeved. I hope he does it saves a lot of money and time.

[fxrp]

I am also a Wood Performance dealer. I talked to Bobby yesterday. He rattled off a list of his most popular grinds which will be available in three weeks (mid feb); I can't rattle them all off but, TW-6, 7H, 408-6, that's all I can remember, there were a few more and he said he would machine one of his other grinds in-house for about $100. If the market grows he'll make more of his grinds available for conversion.

Paul

[george248]

So are you saying that the popular Woods cams for the conversion will be regular prices?

[fxrp]

I didn't get a price but if he follows the others offering conversion cams, Andrews, Wild Things, (couldn't tell from Tman site) the price will be the same. I know Andrews grinds Bobby's cams and the Andrews price is the same silent chain, roller chain, or conversion $273.36 MSRP.

Paul

[Herko]

I am planning on doing one of these retrofits next month. I have a question for Herko or whoever wants to help out. How is the new style cam plate holding up or is it too soon to tell. I'm not afraid to spend extra $$ for a different cams but if I can keep my 203s and go with this HD thing WTF. On the other hand installing one without outer bearings doesn't require a press?? I just need to quit tire kicking and support Herko instead of the MOCO.

Rokin

With a few exceptions the new plate is holding up very well. This plate has been installed on every production Big Twin 07 and up. Put the 06 Dyna's on that list too. Debris in an engine...different story as cited above.

203's...a 203 for a late model can be configured to a conversion cam. Trick here is accuracy. .0005 (1/2 thou) is the max spec. Closer is better. Or get a ready made AP 26. The 26 specs out close to the 203.

Installation: This will be one of the easiest cam installs a you'll ever do. No more fretting with the outer bearings. No press or special outer tools needed. Good idea to change the inner bearings though...B-148 Toringtons.

[Herko]

From my notes, last price I recd for the T-Man conversion cams...$315.00 retail.
BTW, new AP price list just out (Jan 09) conversions cams...$281.56
AP 216015 34T Trigger Sprocket $59.87

[Rokinrider]

  Thanks Herko! I know it's out there somewere but what's your  Email. I need a price for the cams,conversion kit and how you want paid. No big rush but the time to upgrade is now.

Thanks Rokin

[Herko]

  Thanks Herko! I know it's out there somewere but what's your  Email. I need a price for the cams,conversion kit and how you want paid. No big rush but the time to upgrade is now.

Thanks Rokin

herko at insightbb dot com
Thanks.

[rmc115]

Just a observation I noticed for 99-01 bikes. If you have a carb and a aftermarket Ignition box, most do not use the cam position sensor. You can use the new chain if thats the case. I think mine is a crane ign box that says no cam signal needed. Mike

[Ed Y]

Just a observation I noticed for 99-01 bikes. If you have a carb and a aftermarket Ignition box, most do not use the cam position sensor. You can use the new chain if thats the case. I think mine is a crane ign box that says no cam signal needed. Mike

I'll add my 2 cents to that. I've got a SE Adjustable Map Ignition on my 99 and it also doesn't use the cam position sensor.

[96FLSTF]

So below is the Kit to include the additional Spacer Kit  25285-08  & Drive Gear Retention Kit 25533-99A (Top middle). It also calls out for a Cam Service Kit 17045-99C not in the photo but I have out in the garage. So for the only thing that don't make no sense is why they state the need for the additional Drive Gear Retention Kit because in the box with the Upgrade kit was a bag marked 25284-08-SUBA (Top left bag). I think that might be part of a Big Bore Kit & got put in the box by accident??? It has 1 of each cam & crank bolt, one of each washers and some misc. screws I'm not sure yet where they might be meant for, while the actual Gear Retention Kit has 1 cam bolt but 2 crank bolts & 3 washers? I think these additional kits might be a bit screwed up.

So here's the pic of the kit

Gene



I like the billet Support Plate:


One question:
Most recommended way to lube the new pump before installation??? Disassemble & use assembly lube?

[Jeffd]

that is what i did and then I turned the motor over via spinning the rear wheel until the oil was coming up and out the push rods.

[WVULTRA]

96FLSTF:

One question:
Most recommended way to lube the new pump before installation??? Disassemble & use assembly lube?

Disassemble and thoroughly coat the new pump components with a good assembly lube was my procedure.  And an easy way of "priming" these systems on a bagger is to hook a simple remote starter switch to the bike's starter, and spin her over a few times.(with plugs out)

Worked great!

[96FLSTF]

96FLSTF:

One question:
Most recommended way to lube the new pump before installation??? Disassemble & use assembly lube?

Disassemble and thoroughly coat the new pump components with a good assembly lube was my procedure.  And an easy way of "priming" these systems on a bagger is to hook a simple remote starter switch to the bike's starter, and spin her over a few times.(with plugs out)

Worked great!

Many Thanks!
I actually got one of those push buttons on the side of the starter solenoid on my kids fatboy. I think I'll steal it......................

Gene

[Herko]

Gene,
Thanks for the pics and description.

Might want to consider using the S&S retainer plate to secure your bearings in the plate. Cheap insurance for the peace of mind and the job it does.

[Jeffd]

If this is the same as the SE cam plate that retro's the new style oil pump to the pres 07's the S&S retainer plate won't work (at least without drilling and taping the cam plate as the holes are diff.)

[Herko]

If this is the same as the SE cam plate that retro's the new style oil pump to the pres 07's the S&S retainer plate won't work (at least without drilling and taping the cam plate as the holes are diff.)

Good to know. Thanks Jeff.

[Hoist!]

This kit retrofits pre '06 Dynas and earlier TC's to the current hydraulic tensioner system while still allowing you to retain the original chain drive cams. The new SE camplate (for '06 Dynas and up) requires the use of the newer style cams. This kit lets you use your old ones. All it says to me is that HD finally admitted that their original tensioner system is junk, which we've known for years!

Hoist!

[fxrp]

I thnk the more we learn about it the worse it looks. It retains the outer bearings, not good IMO, it retains the morse secondary chain, what a joke, and on the '99 to '01 bikes it retains the morse primary chain, you throw away the primary roller chain and sprockets!

Gee what a deal!

[harleywood]

Umm, the Morse style chain has been used to drive automotive camshafts for the last 40 years or so. Now they're junk?

[Herko]

Umm, the Morse style chain has been used to drive automotive camshafts for the last 40 years or so. Now they're junk?

On the Morse system, it not so much the chains. It's the old tensioner inferior pad material and the overkill unregulated spring tension on the old tensioners. Wonder if Morse designed the old system though??

[91fe]

Alright... I'm new around here.  I found you guys while looking for advice on fixing my cam tensioners.  I very much appreciate the fact that the vast majority of the threads on this board are here for a purpose.  I really hate sifting through all of the crap on the other boards.

Now... on to business.

I'm trying to fix this:



It's my '03 Road King that's just past the 30K mark.  I've already decided that I don't want to go with a gear drive... the upgraded tensioner system is the right fix for ME and that's how I intend to address the problem.  I thought I had it all figured out until this new option came along... now I'm all confused.  I'm trying to weigh future dependability and cost at the same time and have come up with the following options:

1.  Piece the conversion cam system together myself for $750.  This number includes Andrews 26N cams and SE adjustable pushrods.  Yes, I know there are guys out there selling complete kits ready to go...but given the current temp outside, I'm in no real hurry and wouldn't mind saving some money by doing the leg work myself.

2.  A variation of above, but save a couple more bucks by sourcing some parts off of eBay.  I could probably get my number down to $650.

3.  Go with HD's new kit for $460 ($360, plus $100 for additional parts and shipping).

My two questions are these:

1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.

2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?

Thanks!

[ederdelyi]

>>1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.<<

Adjustable pushrods are not needed unless you don't want to open up the rocker boxes and remove the rocker support plate. Many just cut the stock rods to avoid doing that step.If you mill the heads or use a cam with a smaller than stock base circle, then adjustables or "perfect fit" pushrods may be required.

>>2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?<<

If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

EDIT: You will get many varying opinions on this. Do what makes sense to you both financially and from a comfort level. I have no "axe" to grind with the MOCO, SnS, or any other vendor ... just call things as I see 'em with as litlle bias as I can.

[fxrp]

Well lets, see. Since 1999 everyone looked for an alternative to the silent chain system because it ate tension shoes at random (some bad at 15k some still OK at 50k) and caused a lot of problems. Gear drive came out and everyone moved to it to eliminate the Morse chains and the tensioners. If you go back and read this thread you'll find some questions about how well the rough/coarse Morse chain will work with the new hydraulic tensioners.

In '03 HD degraded the bottom end with a roller bearing on the crank; in '05 they further degraded the bottom end with cast into forged flywheels which caused excessive pinion runout and made gear drives problematic. In '06 on the Dyna models and '07 to present all models HD went to the roller chain and hydraulic tensioners. From everything we've seen/heard the new system is working very well and the tensioners are showing little to no wear with as much as 25k and more miles.

For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

[Don D]

Consider bagging the SE pushrods and reuse yours
Take a small portion of the money saved ad replace the plastic breather assemblys with the cast aluminum replacements.

[Hoist!]

Alright... I'm new around here.  I found you guys while looking for advice on fixing my cam tensioners.  I very much appreciate the fact that the vast majority of the threads on this board are here for a purpose.  I really hate sifting through all of the crap on the other boards.

Now... on to business.

I'm trying to fix this:



It's my '03 Road King that's just past the 30K mark.  I've already decided that I don't want to go with a gear drive... the upgraded tensioner system is the right fix for ME and that's how I intend to address the problem.  I thought I had it all figured out until this new option came along... now I'm all confused.  I'm trying to weigh future dependability and cost at the same time and have come up with the following options:

1.  Piece the conversion cam system together myself for $750.  This number includes Andrews 26N cams and SE adjustable pushrods.  Yes, I know there are guys out there selling complete kits ready to go...but given the current temp outside, I'm in no real hurry and wouldn't mind saving some money by doing the leg work myself.

2.  A variation of above, but save a couple more bucks by sourcing some parts off of eBay.  I could probably get my number down to $650.

3.  Go with HD's new kit for $460 ($360, plus $100 for additional parts and shipping).

My two questions are these:

1.  With HD's kit, is there any need to mess with the pushrods?  I'm thinking not, but I'm not completely sure.  If so, the added expense of adjustables probably makes this option a no-go.

2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?

Thanks!

First off, welcome aboard 91! New here too, but with the tensioners looking like that, I'd be pulling the Oil Pump apart at a minimum. You have the first year of the roller lower end too, so I'd be checking runout as well. The new hydraulic conversion might be a good solution, whether using the new one, or converting it to the new style with new style cams to boot. Think about using a Feuling Camplate and Oil Pump too, or at least the Baisley Bypass shim. For stock cams, and if you remove the heads, you can reuse the pushrods. With the heads on, you'll have to cut them out and use adjustables w/new push rod covers. Frankly, I'm not convinced on the new HD kit yet!

Hoist!

[91fe]

...If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

Thanks!  I'm really not concerned with added HP and I'm content with the current performance of my bike.

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

[91fe]

Consider bagging the SE pushrods and reuse yours
Take a small portion of the money saved ad replace the plastic breather assemblys with the cast aluminum replacements.

Is it worth pulling the tank to save the pushrod money?  Please tell me more about the breather assemblies... what and how.  Thanks!

[fxrp]

>>2.  Of the three options above... What would you do?<<

If you don't want to change cams and the stock stuff is in good shape, then the HD setup may be what you want to consider. It's just another option, IMO. I personally would have no qualms running either chain setup in my own motor ... but I'm still running the original Morse chain/spring tensioners so WTFDIK? :>)

Well at 30k I would recommend you replace the cams and lifters so I would strongly recommend that you go with the complete conversion. Lots of plus's with the full conversion. With HDs new "kit" there are lots of minus's IMO.

Paul

[fxrp]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

[nc-renegade]

Well at 30k I would recommend you replce the cams and lifters so I would strongly recommend that you go with the complete conversion. Lots of plus's with the full conversion. With HDs new "kit" there are lots of minus's IMO.

Paul

The conversion kit with new cams, camplate and pump is a very nice way to go and one of the easiest installations you can do.  I would not consider going with this new HD conversion.

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

[nc-renegade]

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

That's a good point.  You could argue this is a billet plate versus a stock plate though.

If you are having a shop do the work, I bet the difference between installing this kit with your old cams versus installing new cams with the conversion kit (herko) is fairly close, since with this kit you should install new outer bearings; which makes the shop time is greater.

[nc-renegade]

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You don't have adjustable pushrods figured in the $460 price, do you?

[Jeffd]

pretty easy to pull the tank.  I don't know why everyone makes a fuss about this.  herko sells some quick release adaptors for the cross over hose makes it simple.

[ederdelyi]

See ... I told ya you'd get lots of varying opinions :>)

I'll say it again, then shut up ... do what makes the most sense for you ... it's your ride and your wallet.

[aal]

"If you are having a shop do the work, I bet the difference between installing this kit with your old cams versus installing new cams with the conversion kit (herko) is fairly close, since with this kit you should install new outer bearings; which makes the shop time is greater."

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

[nc-renegade]

pretty easy to pull the tank.  I don't know why everyone makes a fuss about this. 

I prefer to pull the tank as well.  Just makes it easier to work on the bike.  I have a lot of the hose clamps on hand and made the crimp tool from cutting nips.

[smoserx1]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

If you are doing the full conversion, then there are no outer bearings used anymore.  For the old spring tensioner replacement, or the new hybrid support plate, both use the pressed in ball/roller bearings.  Some folks get around pressing the bearings in by using their oven and freezer to expand/shrink the plate and bearings respectively so they will remove and install with little or no force.  Sounds like it would work good, but it might stink up your house.  For do-it-yourselfers who don't want to use their oven, the full conversion has the advantage of not requiring pressing tools, potentially saving some additional money.

[nc-renegade]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

From Sir Garfield:
Outer (Chains)
Front           --  NACHI  6004-C3
Rear            --  HD P/N 8983      BEARING ASSEMBLY

The new camplate conversion, the cams ride in the parent material...so no bearings.  With the conversion kit we are discussing here, it uses the above bearings that are pressed onto the cams and camplate.

The two methods are shown here:
http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/tensionerinstall.htm for the oven method.

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/camguidepage1.htm for the press method.


I've used both and prefer the press method.  BUT, as stated here, I sure like converting the cams and plate to the new tensioner system without these bearings.

[aal]

Sorry as I know this has been discussed extensively before, but what exatly is involved in changing the new outer bearings? What is the exact new bearing that's to be used?  Thanks.

From Sir Garfield:
Outer (Chains)
Front           --  NACHI  6004-C3
Rear            --  HD P/N 8983      BEARING ASSEMBLY

The new camplate conversion, the cams ride in the parent material...so no bearings.  With the conversion kit we are discussing here, it uses the above bearings that are pressed onto the cams and camplate.

The two methods are shown here:
http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/tensionerinstall.htm for the oven method.

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/camguidepage1.htm for the press method.


I've used both and prefer the press method.  BUT, as stated here, I sure like converting the cams and plate to the new tensioner system without these bearings.

So, with the new HD kit and camplate, there are no bearings involved?

[91fe]

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You don't have adjustable pushrods figured in the $460 price, do you?

No...  It's $361 for the kit, $73 for extra parts and $26 for tax and shipping.

[91fe]

See ... I told ya you'd get lots of varying opinions :>)

I'll say it again, then shut up ... do what makes the most sense for you ... it's your ride and your wallet.

That's just it...and why I'm here.  I don't exactly know what makes sense to me.  If we're just talking dollars and cents, for a bike that I intend to do the work on...and one that I'm not all too concerned with the "go fast" parts... then the HD kit makes pretty good sense.  On the other hand, I can see that the full conversion is a better engineered system.  I just need to figure out if the extra money for the full conversion is a smart investment, or if the HD kit is all the doctor ordered.

[aal]

That's just it...and why I'm here.  I don't exactly know what makes sense to me.  If we're just talking dollars and cents, for a bike that I intend to do the work on...and one that I'm not all too concerned with the "go fast" parts... then the HD kit makes pretty good sense.  On the other hand, I can see that the full conversion is a better engineered system.  I just need to figure out if the extra money for the full conversion is a smart investment, or if the HD kit is all the doctor ordered.
[/quote]

What exatcly is the difference between the HD kit and the "full conversion."  Is that the Andrews kit?  Thanks.

[ederdelyi]

>>I'll say it again, then shut up <<

O.K., so I lied ... shoot me :>)

In your case, you have an "03 bike, so you would only have the Morse chain on the secondary drive. Even the earlier models can do this if they use the right ignition, but that's not an issue for you.

If your cams and other related parts are in good shape, then the HD setup you are considering is, IMO, a good option. Is the other setup from HD a "better engineered" option and markedly better solution from your perspective and intended use ... highly debatable, IMO. Worth the cost differential? Hard to say as we have no idea what your true financial status is. IMO, either one will be "better" than what you have now. I would say that the final decision would depend on the condition of the rest of the cam chest components. If you need to replace the cams, then go for the "full" changeover, otherwise the other option should be considered. It's gonna be your choice, all any of us can do is recommend what we would do, and that might not be right for you at this point in time.

The "full" kit converts the cam chest to the latest OEM version with roller chains, new pump, cam plate, cams, hydraulic tensioners, plain bearings on the outer bearings, larger diameter inner needle bearings, yada yada. Herko and now Andrews have put all the pieces together and offer it as a kit. HD just released another option which does most, but not all the same thing but allows one to use the old style cams and bearings. Just like the cereal aisle at the supermarket, one now has a few too many choices and it makes the aisle somewhat crowded as folks try to make up their mind what they want :>)

[Don D]

Bobby Woods has several of the most popular grinds available in "conversion" cams packaged with all the parts ready to go. 4 or 5 so far and more to come soon.

[91fe]

...Just like the cereal aisle at the supermarket, one now has a few too many choices and it makes the aisle somewhat crowded as folks try to make up their mind what they want :>)

Perfectly put.  Thank you all for your suggestions.

[fxrp]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

You got 30k on those cams and lifters; you should replace the cams and lifters anyway and conversion cams are no more expensive than stock cams. I specified the prices w/o cams so yes I am comparing apples to apples.

Obviously buy and install whatever you want; but its a no brainer to me.

I said it again so now I can shut up.

Paul

[fxrp]

Bobby Woods has several of the most popular grinds available in "conversion" cams packaged with all the parts ready to go. 4 or 5 so far and more to come soon.

Didn't believe me or what? 

[91fe]

...For the same or less $$$ than the HD kit you can fully convert to the roller chain so why would you want to retain any portion of the old problematic system.

And yes, at least the HD version of the Morse chain is junk. IMO

Paul

But it's not the same, or less money for the full upgrade... it's $300 more.

That's not true. The HD kit is $448 w/o cams, the complete kit from Herko, again w/o cams is under $400 he said.

edit: You're not comparing apples to apples.  You can't run Herko's kit without buying conversion cams too.

Believe me...I've been running the numbers for every part necessary to do each of the options myself.  They are:

Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460.

...I specified the prices w/o cams so yes I am comparing apples to apples.

Thanks for your input Paul.  I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to make sure this is clear for the next guy that finds himself in my shoes.  You MUST buy new "conversion" cams to use with the full conversion kit from Herko, or elsewhere... the stock cams don't work with the conversion system  The new HD kit utilizes your stock cams, so you don't have to buy new ones.

[Herko]

"Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460."

FYI...the Andrews list of components (as was the alleged complete upgrade above) + Andrews cams, and + 18404-08 PR's = less than $750.00 from me. Even less with 17997-97A pushrods. Not really my style to price things on this board but sounds like there's some misinformation out there.

Yes, I do have another kit that sell for $449.00 alone, but far more with it than what gets plugged into the Zanotti on line pricing page. This kit is designed to be complete enough to save any unwanted trips to the dealer or even the hardware store. It has things a guy might not think of until he gets into the job itself.

[91fe]

Herko,
I am very sorry if my mentioning prices was out of line.  Cost is probably the biggest deciding factor in choosing which way to go and we can't really make in informed decision with knowing how much we're going to have to pony up.  Say the word and I'll delete my post(s) that include numbers.  The last thing I want to do is piss anybody off on my first day on the job.  This forum is great... just look at our discussion here.

[fxrp]

"Complete upgrade with Andrews cams and adj pushrods... $750 from Zanotti's and $862 from Herko.
HD's fix kit from Zanotti's, no cams necessary... $460."

FYI...the Andrews list of components (as was the alleged complete upgrade above) + Andrews cams, and + 18404-08 PR's = less than $750.00 here. Even less with 17997-97A pushrods. Not really my style to price things on this board but sounds like there's some misinformation out there.

Yes, I do have another kit that sell for $449.00 alone, but far more with it than what gets plugged into the Zanotti on line pricing page. This kit is designed to be complete enough to save any unwanted trips to the dealer or even the hardware store. It has things a guy might not think of until he gets into the job itself.

Herko,

My kit @ $458 is like your kit I believe. They both include lots of little parts that are not part of the Andrews list or the HD kit; neither one includes necesssary gaskets and o-rings for example, my kit does include gaskets/o-rings as well as little things like the button head and allen head screws to mount the primary and secondary hydraulic tensioners. In fact the HD kit states "seperate purchase of cam service kit . . ." which is an additional $67.95 IIRC.

There's no longer any point to this discussion we're down to "does too"/"does not."

Paul

[ederdelyi]

Just to be clear here, I'm not pushing any of the options over another or sources. I don't sell any of this stuff, in fact, I'm no longer doing any MC motor work except for my personal use. So, I hope no one takes any of this as an endorsement or lack of one to any vendor /supplier. As stated, I try real hard to give an honest assesment based on my knowledge and personal experience with as little bias as possible. Kudos to those who honestly try to provide good solutions at fair prices ... it ain't easy to do and keep food on the table.

[91fe]

If it helps anyone, here is a list of parts and prices I'm using to compare the full conversion to HD's new fix kit.  I think my list is pretty complete and the prices are from earlier this month.  Use it, and the part numbers at your own risk.

[Herko]

If it helps anyone, here is a list of parts and prices I'm using to compare the full conversion to HD's new fix kit.  I think my list is pretty complete and the prices are from earlier this month.  Use it, and the part numbers at your own risk.

Edit: Don't want to over commercialize this thread and forum. Email me for any pricing and/or info.
Thanks.
Herko

[Billy]

Do people buy the full compliment of spacers??
You only need 1

I do. Because you don't know which one you're gonna need 'till you're doing the installation.

[fxstdavew]

You could always go back with the stock tensioners for under 100 bills.   

[fxrp]

You could always go back with the stock tensioners for under 100 bills.   

Not anymore, MSRP on the -99 tensioners went up to $65.15 each, so just tensioners is $130.30.

Paul

You don't suppose that has anything to do with the release of their new kit do ya? 

[PoorUB]

Thanks for your input Paul.  I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to make sure this is clear for the next guy that finds himself in my shoes.  You MUST buy new "conversion" cams to use with the full conversion kit from Herko, or elsewhere... the stock cams don't work with the conversion system  The new HD kit utilizes your stock cams, so you don't have to buy new ones.

I would not be quick to condemn your stock cams. When I tore down my '05, with 44,000 miles, the cams and lifters looked almost like new, I would not be afraid to run them another 50,000 miles.

I would get your "ducks" in a row, tear the bike down, and then decide. If the original cams looks good, run 'em with HD's new plate.

If you want a bit more HP or torque, go with Herko's kit and Andrew's 21 cams. AS far as buying the kit else where, Herko will add or subtract parts, plus like he says, it is a one stop shop, all the parts you need at one time, no running around, scratching your head trying to figure out what you are missing. it is all in there.

Either way you will need to pull the rocker covers off, or buy adjustable push rods, so either the HD's conversion, or Herko's kit and Andrew's cams do not affect that decision. Myself, I kept the stock push rods as I was doing a 95" kit at the same time, but I would consider keeping the stock push rods either was as it is one less thing to deal with. The stockers are good rods, adjustables are ok too, but you hear from time to time of some problem with adjustables, loose nuts, what have you.

[harleytoprock]

So, what would be the most quiet?
1.  Morse chain with hydros
2.  Roller chain with hydros
3.  Gear drive with ideal runout and gear lash

[Kleetus]

So, what would be the most quiet?
1.  Morse chain with hydros
2.  Roller chain with hydros
3.  Gear drive with ideal runout and gear lash

Not Sure. But, I have Andrews 26G's with the S&S gear drive with over 100K miles and still running fine. No checking the shoes, no wondering if the chains are worn, no arguing about who's systems best. I just ride it and forget it because there's no plastic, nylon or whatever they make shoes and guides from to break or clog up the oil pump. I like to keep things simple.
Kleetus

[Jeffd]

I have 35,000 on my gears and it is quiet and trouble free.  I do not believe most people could tell what mine has and I have a supertrapp so not being drowned out by exhaust sound.

[fxstbob]

If one were partial to a cam not offered as a conversion, what would the cost be to have it machined to work with the full conversion?

[fxrp]

Bob Wood told me last week that he would machine one of his grinds to fit a conversion for about $100. Herko has someone but IIRC it was quite a bit more.

Paul

[96FLSTF]

Not sure if I should post this here or on a new thread, but below is a pic of the new oil pump that comes with the kit (On the right) and the OEM pump. The new pump has no o-ring seal like the original one. Guess they figure the machined surface on the SE Support Plate is good enough.

Gene

[Herko]

Not sure if I should post this here or on a new thread, but below is a pic of the new oil pump that comes with the kit (On the right) and the OEM pump. The new pump has no o-ring seal like the original one. Guess they figure the machined surface on the SE Support Plate is good enough.

Gene

Yes, same set up as the OE 07 & later models. (06 FXD's too). There may be some bypass seepage w/o the oring but the improved pump seems to compensate nicely.

Looks like you pre-lubed your new OP...this is good.

[clap]

I have made up my mind and am going with the HD kit, now will I need both the lock unlock tools to do this since I will be removing the morse chain and installing a roller with the kit. I hate to buy the 1 tool just to remove one time and never use again.
Clap

[Don D]

I don't use them. Lock the rear brake and the retainer bolts can be removed or replaced and torqued.

[Ultrashovel]

I thnk the more we learn about it the worse it looks. It retains the outer bearings, not good IMO, it retains the morse secondary chain, what a joke, and on the '99 to '01 bikes it retains the morse primary chain, you throw away the primary roller chain and sprockets!

Gee what a deal!

No. Don't throw them away. Put them on ebay like everyone else! It's the American way. 

[PoorUB]

I have made up my mind and am going with the HD kit, now will I need both the lock unlock tools to do this since I will be removing the morse chain and installing a roller with the kit. I hate to buy the 1 tool just to remove one time and never use again.
Clap

I just did the Andrews conversion cams and '07 and up cam plate. I did not buy any special tools for the job. I did have the typical tools most any engine rebuiler may have, but nothing HD specific. I bought a bearing puller to replace the inner cam bearings, but it is a universal tool that I can use elwhere, and have already. I installed the inner bearings with a socket, extention and small hammer. If you are uncomfrtable doing it this way someone here has tools to rent/loan.
Put the bike in gear and hold the rear brake to keep the engine from turning over to loosen/tighten cam bolts.

[clap]

I'll give this a try,  Now what is so special about the oil pump allignment screws. Are they something that could be made, I have a friend that has a machine shop, that told me to get tools somewhere and he will copy them.  Thanks

[Don D]

You don't need those either. Follow the shop manuals method.
You should use the Jims or Georges inner cam bearing tools IMO. Loose a roller in the motor or hurt the case and hate yourself for a long time.

[seminolebagger]

I thnk the more we learn about it the worse it looks. It retains the outer bearings, not good IMO, it retains the morse secondary chain, what a joke, and on the '99 to '01 bikes it retains the morse primary chain, you throw away the primary roller chain and sprockets!

Gee what a deal!

Just curious as to why you feel the outer bearings are bad.  I seem to remember that when the new system cam out, there was some skepticism about the bearing-less system.  Have the bearings been a problem?

Thanks,

SB

[Admiral Akbar]

There have been issues with the ball an roller setup in the past. Remember the rear cam bearing fiasco? Still some motor have managed to blow the front ball.. While it's possible that the roller / ball bearing damage could be from the install they don't handle high impact loads like a plane bearings.. The flip side of the setup is that plane bearing are more susceptible to contaminants in the oil system..  Max

[ederdelyi]

Hell, my toilet screws up every now and then too .... and that design has been around for a while! :>)

[fxrp]

Just curious as to why you feel the outer bearings are bad.  I seem to remember that when the new system cam out, there was some skepticism about the bearing-less system.  Have the bearings been a problem?

What Max said. But also the plane bearings are nothing new. Its been used in the auto industry for years. And a little different application but the outer journal of the EVO cam was supported by a brass bushing in the cam cover.

[fxrp]

Hell, my toilet screws up every now and then too .... and that design has been around for a while! :>)

Might want to cut back on the roughage ed 

[Candy_Red_Ultra]

So what year did this become standard equipment ?

[ederdelyi]

>>So what year did this become standard equipment ?<<

'06 for Dynas, '07 for the rest of the TC's.

>>Might want to cut back on the roughage ed<<

Nah. The toilet's been bored, stroked, ported and polished. Tried synthetic muti-vis H2O 'cuz it's supposed to be "slicker" but had problems with ball cock "skate", so went back to "dino" straight viscosity. Ahh well, it's just a POS, after all :>)

[Admiral Akbar]

Hell, my toilet screws up every now and then too .... and that design has been around for a while! :>)

Might want to cut back on the roughage ed 

Heck,

I was thinking he needs to increase it..  Max

[ederdelyi]

>>I was thinking he needs to increase it..  <<

This from a guy who thought that the rubber thingee with a handle was a new windproof hat? Maybe for $hitheads, but the rest of us call it a plunger :>)

[Deye76]

>>I was thinking he needs to increase it..  <<

This from a guy who thought that the rubber thingee with a handle was a new windproof hat? Maybe for $hitheads, but the rest of us call it a plunger :>)

Good one.

[Admiral Akbar]

>>I was thinking he needs to increase it..  <<

This from a guy who thought that the rubber thingee with a handle was a new windproof hat? Maybe for $hitheads, but the rest of us call it a plunger :>)

You mean it's not?? Oh man, I'm crushed...    Max

[Ultrashovel]

>>I'll say it again, then shut up <<

O.K., so I lied ... shoot me :>)

In your case, you have an "03 bike, so you would only have the Morse chain on the secondary drive. Even the earlier models can do this if they use the right ignition, but that's not an issue for you.

If your cams and other related parts are in good shape, then the HD setup you are considering is, IMO, a good option. Is the other setup from HD a "better engineered" option and markedly better solution from your perspective and intended use ... highly debatable, IMO. Worth the cost differential? Hard to say as we have no idea what your true financial status is. IMO, either one will be "better" than what you have now. I would say that the final decision would depend on the condition of the rest of the cam chest components. If you need to replace the cams, then go for the "full" changeover, otherwise the other option should be considered. It's gonna be your choice, all any of us can do is recommend what we would do, and that might not be right for you at this point in time.

The "full" kit converts the cam chest to the latest OEM version with roller chains, new pump, cam plate, cams, hydraulic tensioners, plain bearings on the outer bearings, larger diameter inner needle bearings, yada yada. Herko and now Andrews have put all the pieces together and offer it as a kit. HD just released another option which does most, but not all the same thing but allows one to use the old style cams and bearings. Just like the cereal aisle at the supermarket, one now has a few too many choices and it makes the aisle somewhat crowded as folks try to make up their mind what they want :>)

How do they change the inner needle bearings to a larger size when doing the full kit in a pre-2006 T. C.? I understood that the kit from Herko or Andrews uses hybrid Andrews cams with large plain outer bearings and the stock INA 148's or Torrington B148's. Unless there is some modification to the size of the inner bores of the right crankcase, it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

Eh?   

[smoserx1]

Unless there is some modification to the size of the inner bores of the right crankcase, it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

That's right.  Conversion cams have new plain bearing outer ends, use roller chains for primary and secondary drive, but use smaller 0.875 ends for the needle bearing journal, and the needle bearings in the crankcase remain the B148 size after the conversion.

[Ultrashovel]

Unless there is some modification to the size of the inner bores of the right crankcase, it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

That's right.  Conversion cams have new plain bearing outer ends, use roller chains for primary and secondary drive, but use smaller 0.875 ends for the needle bearing journal, and the needle bearings in the crankcase remain the B148 size after the conversion.

That's what I thought. The hydrid setup that HD has just brought out would be OK for a person such as myself who likes stock cams. I seldom rev over 3,500 rpm and I'm mostly trying to get into high gear when i'm going somewhere. With a sidecar, the last thing that you want is a set of cams that require higher revs to open up. 

Frankly, the Harleys that I like are the stock ones. The company has done a fair job of opening up to larger engines and six-speed transmissions. They have also done work on the frame to improve handling and smoothness in the newer models.

If I did some work, I would want more cubic inches to get a bit more torque. Unfortunately, once thing leads to another and making such changes would bring out the need for a better drive bearing in the case and so on and so forth. I'm not revealing a secret when I say that all of that costs money.

The new HD hydraulic tensioner setup does look like a good idea for me since it can use stock or higher-lift Harley cams with all stock parts. That would be tempting next time I visit my cam case.

[clap]

With the conversion cams you use the same size bearings inboard and the outer side of the cam does not use any bearings at all. Now with the new Harley conversion same inner and outer bearing size and you use the stock size cams. Need to replace the inner with b148 timkin / Torrington.

[ederdelyi]

>>it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

Eh? <<

Yep. My fingers got carried away :>) Bad fingers, BAD!

[fxrp]

>>it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

Eh? <<

Yep. My fingers got carried away :>) Bad fingers, BAD!

You don't need the B168 bearings with the roller chain. Its not like the 148s are a weak spot in the conversion; there was no real reason for HD to go from 148s to 168s.

But I did hear that in the not too distant past HD stated that they would "change one thing on every model every year." Sounds like they're just trying to be difficult.

Paul

[ederdelyi]

>>You don't need the B168 bearings with the roller chain. Its not like the 148s are a weak spot in the conversion; there was no real reason for HD to go from 148s to 168s<<

Other than trying to reduce the load while still using a caged needle bearing and not increase costs, probably so. I can't really say that the inners have been a problem on the TC's, even with the caged needles.

As to the other ... who knows? Corporations do funny $hit sometimes for reasons that often make little sense to those outside of it. It's not just HD, although they do have some "quirks" I've always found amusing.

[Ultrashovel]

>>it seems that the kit would use the smaller needle bearings - same size as stock.

Eh? <<

Yep. My fingers got carried away :>) Bad fingers, BAD!

You don't need the B168 bearings with the roller chain. Its not like the 148s are a weak spot in the conversion; there was no real reason for HD to go from 148s to 168s.

But I did hear that in the not too distant past HD stated that they would "change one thing on every model every year." Sounds like they're just trying to be difficult.

Paul

The "New Harley-Davidson" is making frequent changes, unlike the former Knucklehead, Panhead, Shovelhead and to a certain extent, Evo years. The aftermarket had plenty of time in those eras to make products that were useful for numerous model years.

That's not going to happen anymore. HD has increasingly made lots and lots of changes yearly from 2003 to the present nearly every year. Frames are different, heads, cranks, cases, wheels, you name it.

That fact will make it difficult for the aftermarket or even a Harley dealer to stock parts. They aren't going to supply too many spares for a parts design that only lasted one or two years.

The Japanese motorcycles have led the way since they often change bores, strokes and crankcases every year. It's very difficult to find parts for Japanese motorcycles after three or four years. It appears that Harley-Davidson is going the same direction, probably out of necessity to keep up with the changing demographic.

You will probably still be able to find parts. You'll just have to look longer and pay more.

[ederdelyi]

When HD was a privately owned company and even in the AMF years it was always known as an evolutionary company versus a revolutionary company. A large percentage of their customer base were fine with that.

When HD went public, that all was destined to change. Whether or not we like it, they have to play the game just like others to stay in it. Their customer base is getting older and will continue to shrink unless they can attract new (and younger) ones. Those new customers will have a different experience base and are more "technology" oriented than previous customers. They don't much give a "fig" about nostalgia or retro, they want the "latest and greatest" and the metrics they use to gauge them are going to be different. For a company like HD, it boils down to "ATS" (Adapt To Survive) even if it means rolling over the aftermarket to get there. The aftermarket will have to be quicker on the draw, just as the automotive sector aftermarket has had to be.

Not saying it's a good thing, just how things are in the world we live in today.

[Ultrashovel]

When HD was a privately owned company and even in the AMF years it was always known as an evolutionary company versus a revolutionary company. A large percentage of their customer base were fine with that.

When HD went public, that all was destined to change. Whether or not we like it, they have to play the game just like others to stay in it. Their customer base is getting older and will continue to shrink unless they can attract new (and younger) ones. Those new customers will have a different experience base and are more "technology" oriented than previous customers. They don't much give a "fig" about nostalgia or retro, they want the "latest and greatest" and the metrics they use to gauge them are going to be different. For a company like HD, it boils down to "ATS" (Adapt To Survive) even if it means rolling over the aftermarket to get there. The aftermarket will have to be quicker on the draw, just as the automotive sector aftermarket has had to be.

Not saying it's a good thing, just how things are in the world we live in today.

I absolutely agree. So much for "living the legend". It's not your grandfather's Harley anymore.

[fxrp]

Not saying it's a good thing, just how things are in the world we live in today.

I'm saying its a bad thing, change for nothing more than change sake is just BS and personally I think they're hurting themselves. Who the hell's in charge Obama?

I used my steering neck bearing tools today on a 1996 Dyna. The race installer fits "HD 1936 to present," there's nothing wrong with that. If they feel they need to compete with the aftermarket maybe they should try producing a competitive product instead of changing parts just to be difficult. The aftermarket can/will adapt much better and faster than the over-bloated HD corporate structure.

Paul

[Ultrashovel]

Not saying it's a good thing, just how things are in the world we live in today.

I'm saying its a bad thing, change for nothing more than change sake is just BS and personally I think they're hurting themselves. Who the hell's in charge Obama?

I used my steering neck bearing tools today on a 1996 Dyna. The race installer fits "HD 1936 to present," there's nothing wrong with that. If they feel they need to compete with the aftermarket maybe they should try producing a competitive product instead of changing parts just to be difficult. The aftermarket can/will adapt much better and faster than the over-bloated HD corporate structure.

Paul

Nice but the neck bearings are the only thing that hasn't changed too much in the interim.

[Faast Ed]

They ucked up the design of the old tensioners when the first created the design.

They saw the aftermarket was happy to sell a "fix".

If Harley can sell HD Coffee, why shouldn't they jump on "one more item to sell". One that may do very well even!

[ederdelyi]

>>change for nothing more than change sake is just BS <<

I certainly agree with that. Truth is, there are reasons why the changes occur other than just changing things to be "difficult". We aren't privy to the real reasons in most cases, but having been involved with the corporate as well as government/military side of things I know some of what goes on. It ain't pretty most times, and the engineers generally don't like most of the decisions. When it comes to a choice of going along or losing your job to a recent (and economical) graduate from India or Taiwan what do you think most will do? it's no bed of Roses out there for any of us. Consumer stuff is vicious, and it's not much better even with stuff that is supposed to defend us or where lives are at risk. Been there, done that, and don't want the T-shirt!

[fxrp]

<<. . . there are reasons why the changes occur other than just changing things to be "difficult".>>

Yeh and a lot of those reasons are cost. HD has made a lot of changes trying to save a few cents/unit that has cost them a lot more to correct. How about the cam bearing issue, the fuel filter shell on the 2008 models, and their problem with the head gaskets on the SE 110" that they refuse to address fully. There's the beginning of a class action suit starting up with that one.

Long story but I ended up with one of the "repair kits" for a 110" leaking head gasket. HD gave the HG kit and all the necessary gaskets to the owner and the bike was trailered to me to install it. Needless to say the dealer wasn't happy but then the owner wasn't happy with them. The OEM HGs were .036" steel gaskets (looked like Cometic). The kit had the old stock style gaskets and they were .067" new, I imagine they crushed down to .057 to .060. Nice fix; makes for real happy customers.

I'm sorry to say it but I think HD is digging their own grave; hell the stock was $11 or $12 last I saw, down from a high of $80 about 1 1/2 years ago and it ain't the economy.

Paul

[ederdelyi]

Well Paul, I can't say that I disagree with some of what you say. Let's just say that it's not just HD that is doing what we are discussing here. Cost is a BIG part of engineering and manufacturing ... always has been. Since this is a tech forum we should probably just let it sit as it is before we end up getting a "time out". The HD we all knew and loved or hated  (depending on your point of view) is gone and likely will never return. Change is gonna happen, whether we like it or not.

[Deye76]

Back to conversion cams. This is a long thread so may have been covered. CRS
If Woods or others are machining cams, does that affect the hardening?

[ederdelyi]

The journal is machined to accept an inner race that works with the old size inner bearing. At least, that's the method I'm familiar with.

[PoorUB]

I'm sorry to say it but I think HD is digging their own grave; hell the stock was $11 or $12 last I saw, down from a high of $80 about 1 1/2 years ago and it ain't the economy.

Paul

You should have bought yesterday, it is $13.73 right now!
Harley will endure just fine! All the talk that the sky is falling is simply B.S. When you look that the numbers of bikes HD has sold over the last few years it was not going to last, bad economy or not. Wait for 2010. HD will produce 200,000 bikes+/- a few. Down from a hgh of about 349,000 in '06. There is no way HD could cintinue at the pace they were running, and HD knows it. Down sizing and lay offs have been in the works for months, if not a year or more. HD has made a bunch of money in the last few years and is in ggod shape. The stock was due for an adjustment, in my opinion it was way over valued from all the yuppies thinking that it would never end. The time is probably right to buy stock in HD. I doubt it will drop much more, and in a few years it will go up.

[Ultrashovel]

I don't know why people are worried about Harley-Davidson's health. They will be in business for a long long time. You may not like everything they do but some of what they do is going to stick in the market and, lets face it, most people just want a motorcycle, they leave the business decisions to the company.

I think those of us who have been riding and owning Harleys for a long time are probably more annoyed by some of their antics because we remember how it was. I really don't like changes too much either. It used to be comforting knowing that if you needed a cylinder head for your 1970 Shovelhead you had a lot of years to choose from. Well that period is gone and so is the horse and buggy.

As far as Harley stock - the whole market is down 60% in the last year. To try to say that it's simply because people don't like the company is like trying to pick the flyspecks out of the pepper. Some people aren't smart enough to hang on for the long haul. they like to sell into a falling market. Can't help some folks. Gotta lettum do what they want to do.

[mayor]

has anyone used this kit yet (the SE kit for older style chain cams)?  I would like to hear some feed back.   

[machinist]

My freind had it done at the dealer, the mechanics hadn't done one yet, but said they would do it to thier personal bikes rather than the geared setup. Many good reasons to go this route. Gary