HD now has Hydra chain conversion kit!

[harleywood]

It retains the original bearings...

[Don D]

Thanks!

[harleywood]

 

[seminolebagger]

I wonder if you used the Andrews gear with the cam sensor for 99-01 if you could use the roller chain on the outside.



SB

[Don D]

I'll bet you could but I would not expect HD to be revealing that. They seem to be voraciously trying to devour the gear drive crowd at the moment.

[96FLSTF]

I was actually in the process of taking mine apart today to check mine and pretty much assuming I would replace them straight up with the oem type & nothin fancy in between. For the record below is mine found today just at 30K on the clock, a 2005, 95" with 203 cams done at delivery when new. Been using Mobile 1 since 1st oil change with frequent oil changes. After seeing this post my local dealer agreed to take my OEM tensioners back and swap for the SE upgrade they already had one on the way (Was gonna be for the parts guy's bike, but he said I could have it since he's in no hurry) I should have it in my hands by this Wednesday or Thursday.

Below is a couple pics of the outer tensioner. Since it was bad enough to call it replacement time I didn't take any pictures of the inner yet (Although I will when it comes out)

Gene

[fxrp]

HD is disounting their kit a little from assembling the '06 parts required yourself, but not much. For the less than $100 difference I will continue to use my kit (like herko's). Stock plate (not billet), roller chain (primary & secondary), no questions.

Paul

[seminolebagger]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.


SB

[smoserx1]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.

About $65 each retail.  Zanotti has then for about $44 each.  Service kit with bearings & gaskets is $50-60 more.  The new stuff mentioned here sounds good. 

[96FLSTF]

How much were the stock replacement tensioners? if you don't mind me asking.


SB

Lookin at my receipt, the tensioners were $58.63 each and the Cam Gasket Service Kit 17045-99c was $62.95.
I was told that the tensioners used to be about $40 until recently.

Gene

[Tsani]

Basically harley just is offering a fix to their screwup and selling as an upgrade. They are just rying to cash in on what the aftermarket crowd realized. And of course, they are a little late. Comparing what they are offering, the setup Herko puts together is very competative and in my opinion gives you more bang for the buck. I mean what the heck, if you are going to do all that may as well change the cams!

[Admiral Akbar]

No cam change is required. I am wondering if outer bearings are used. It appears they abandon those, or do they?

Though you may have figured this out.. It has a bearing retainer plate so it does need bearings.. In that case I'd assume that you need a roller rear.. Maybe even more so than the old style.  Max.

[FSG]

Instructions in

HarleyTechTalk > Documents & FAQ's > Instruction Sheets that have been found > HD > Instructions > Instruction Sheets 

-J04804  25284-08, HYBRID CAM PLATE AND HIGH FLOW OIL PUMP KIT     

Spacer Kit 25285-08 contains:

25717-00 SPACER, .327
25719-00 SPACER, .317
25721-00 SPACER, .307
25725-00 SPACER, .337

[Billy]

Looking at the pic in the link from the first post, I see the MoCo doesn't use a chain guide on the outer chain for this new setup, I wonder how much this will effect cam timing, if any. Also the outer tensioner sure puts a sharp bend in that strand of chain.

Me still like the roller conversion.

[Don D]

I don't think there should be any discussion or debate that the full roller conversion and a conversion cam is a better choice.
If a user was going to do just tensioners this is for him and it is 400 dollars VS 650 rough numbers or 120 plus gaskets to go back with the old tensioners.

[crow]

I just looked at the instruction sheet for this kit. here is step 20.

20. Install the splined sprocket onto the rear camshaft.
For 1999 - 2000 Dyna, 2000 Softail, 1999 - 2000 Touring,
and 2001 EFI Touring models only:
These vehicles will retain the original style primary cam
chain and sprockets, to work with the camshaft position
sensor. The roller style chain and sprockets in THIS kit
are to be discarded.


Why don't they make 2 kits. I hate to pay for parts that they are telling me to discard.
I looked at the part numbers and googled them for prices. They are having us discard
over $60 in parts.   I would like to see a 99-01 kit minus these parts with a price at least
that much lower...

[smoserx1]

Why don't they make 2 kits. I hate to pay for parts that they are telling me to discard.

Probably cost them more to market 2 kits.  Instead of this, why don't they just make the rear cam sprocket with the trigger ring in it for the roller chain as well.  That way it would work with anything.  Is it hurting anything to use a trigger ring on a setup without a cam position sensor?  Also, I read once you could replace a 99-01 ECM with an 02 ECM and get rid of the cam position sensor.  Anyone know if that is true or not?  I just had to replace my ECM about 3 months ago, it would have been a fine time to do this if what I read is true.  One nice thing about this setup is it looks like you could replace the secondary tensioner without having to press out the cams from the plate.  Anyway you wing this deal, you end up with a Morse chain on the inside, and they are supposedly rough compared to rollers.  I'm kind of like some of you others, if you are going to this extent, you might be better off with the Herko/Andrews setup so you will have ALL roller chains, and NO front bearings to screw up.

[nc-renegade]

If I'm going through all this, then I'm going to spend the extra $$ on a cam and go with a true conversion kit.  You still have to deal with the bearings and the inside morse chain.  If I did do this "conversion" on a 99-01, I would go with the Andrew's sproket with trigger ring so as to have the front a roller chain...but that's an extra $50.

This is a knudge from all appearances....just to save buying a cam.

[fxrp]

I don't think there should be any discussion or debate that the full roller conversion and a conversion cam is a better choice.
If a user was going to do just tensioners this is for him and it is 400 dollars VS 650 rough numbers or 120 plus gaskets to go back with the old tensioners.

I know prices have gone up some since I put my roller conversion list together but I have $458 without a cam service kit. If you buy the gasket kit (which you don't need most of) cost would be about about $528. If you just get the cam cover gasket and the few orings you need and upgrade to Torrington inner bearings you'll be well under $500.

I don't know what Herko sells his kit for.

You don't get the secondary roller chain in either case, you don't use the primary roller chain for the early models, why would you want to use the HD kit?

Herko, you out there?

Paul

[fxrp]

I just got to the shop and checked prices, I find no increases on the roller chain conversion parts. So I figured all the parts for a complete swap out for '06 parts, added the cam cover gasket, 2 small orings, 1 large oring for the oil pump spigot, and 2 Torrington inner cam bearings and I come up with a total of $458.

The HD kit is $448 so for $10 more you can have a complete conversion instead of HDs half a$$ed kit.

I wonder if you used the Andrews gear with the cam sensor for 99-01 if you could use the roller chain on the outside.
SB

Yes you can

www.andrewsproducts.com/motorcycle/cams/T88_99_Conv_install_Kit.htm

[tomp]

I need clarification on a few questions I have:

-With the new HD kit for a 02-04 TC, my assumption is that you use the old original chain driven cams. Do you need to replce the gears on the cams to the gears made for a roller chain? Notice the late model cams have thinner gears.

-With the Andrews conversion kit, don't you have to use specialty cams made just for this conversion?

[02FYRFTR]

No thanks, I'll keep my S&S geard driven cams and welded flywheel assembly.  Might be a little noise but if I wanted peace and quiet, I would have bought a Honda/BMW.

[smoserx1]

-With the new HD kit for a 02-04 TC, my assumption is that you use the old original chain driven cams. Do you need to replce the gears on the cams to the gears made for a roller chain? Notice the late model cams have thinner gears.

For an 02-06, you would replace the outer (primary) sprocket with the thinner roller chain sprocket.  For 99-01 models, you have to reuse the old thicker sprocket and outer Morse chain, unless you get a roller chain sprocket with a trigger ring, which HD apparently does not have.  For the inner (secondary) gears and chains you retain the old Morse chain here in all cases, as these sprockets are made onto HD cams (I believe), and cannot be changed.

-With the Andrews conversion kit, don't you have to use specialty cams made just for this conversion?

Yes, in this case, Andrews and maybe one or 2 other companies make a cam with roller chain capability for both primary & secondary, but retain the smaller cam end that goes into the inner needle bearings.  Stock HD cams won't work in this case without special custom machining, way beyond the scope of easy bolt in retrofits.  This is why some of us here are pessimistic about this new kit, because you can't get rid of the Morse chain for the secondary cam drive, and that rough-ass chain may be the biggest wear factor of all, on any kind of tensioner.  We really don't know how good the new secondary tensioner will exist with the Morse chain.  It may do really well, and again it may not.  With the full conversion you get rid of the both Morse chains plus the outer ball & roller bearings as well, eliminating most areas of concern.

[fxrp]

Well said, smoserx1. I think you'll see more 'conversion' cams available. IIRC Woods are now available for a conversion, but I think Bobby is machining them in house to order.

Paul

[Herko]

"Herko, you out there?"
"I don't know what Herko sells his kit for."

The kit I sell is complete. It's my own kit and has many more items than the lists or kits mentioned below. The idea was/is no extra trips needed to the dealer or even the hardware store. It uses conversion cams and incorporates the new system and roller chains...primary and secondary. Feedback on this kit has been excellent. "The Original" Herko kit.
Sells in the mid $400's.

Also by request, there's an abridged kit I started selling to some shops...close to the the Andrews "list".
Can sell this dealer kit to forum members in the low $300's.

For more info and PDF's on the above: send direct email to herko at insightbb dot com Thanks.

Also new in the Conversion Kit arena this month...
Before now (Jan 09) Andrews never sold a conversion "kit" per say. They had the lists on their websites and it was a common misconception that they did in fact sell a kit. They kindly referred their kit inquiries to me.
And as you may know, AP sells to dealers/distributors but not to retail customers.

As of Jan 09:
AP p/n 2889902 Conversion Cam Kit: 2002-2006 Model Years (Except '06 Dyna) retail $483.00
AP p/n 288999 Conversion Cam Kit: 1999-2001 Model Years retail $534.54
These kits are the Andrews list with an added cam cover gasket.
The 288999 has the AP p/n 216015 34T sprocket with trigger ring.

Cheers,
Herko