HD now has Hydra chain conversion kit!

[PoorUB]

This is a knudge from all appearances....just to save buying a cam.

I think you are forgetting that the large share of riders out there would consider putting in HD's kit, and the old cams back in. My bet is 3/4ths of the riders out there just ride, and could care less for another 10-20 HP. I was quite content with my "stock" Ultra, and only did the Andrews cams, and extra engine work because I had the bike apart to get rid of the cheesy tensioners. I would have seriously thought about this set up if it had come out a couple months ago!
Save $250 for cams and run the stockers? I may have!

[Faast Ed]

Ub is right. Many out there would be happy to shed the crappy tensioners and keep everything else.

[fxrp]

"Herko, you out there?"
"I don't know what Herko sells his kit for."

The kit I sell is complete. It's my own kit and has many more items than the lists or kits mentioned below. The idea was/is no extra trips needed to the dealer or even the hardware store. It uses conversion cams and incorporates the new system and roller chains...primary and secondary. Feedback on this kit has been excellent. "The Original" Herko kit.
Sells in the mid $400's.

Sounds like the kit/list I put together for conversions. I don't try to sell the kit just keep all the parts around for builds I do. My charge for the parts needed is $458 w/o cams.

BTW I talked to Bob Wood today, the popular Wood grinds will be available as roller conversion cams in about three weeks. He said any of his other grinds could be machined in-house for $100.

Paul

[Herko]

Well, so far in the ready-made conversion cams:

Andrews
Kuryakyn (Wild Things)
T-Man
and now Wood

Now all the positives of the hydra-chain set up can be spread over a wider variety of cam choices.

[BVHOG]

Honestly, this looks like a half assed effort to fix a problem they created by not doing it right the first time, do the entire conversion kit or simply put  a set of stock tensioners in every 25 thousand or so. I have taken many stock bikes apart to find the outer cam bearings have been spinning in the plate at one time or the other, this kit does absolutely nothing to address that. This whole thing looks like backyard engineering to me, and a poor job of it at that.

[nc-renegade]

Save $250 for cams and run the stockers? I may have!

I hear you, but this kit is a knudge and is not proven.

[Jeffd]

I guess one advantage is that the cams would not need to be pulled to replace the inner tensioner.  I am glad I have low run out and can keep running my gear drives.  maybe the retainer plate is heavier like the S&S to keep the bearings from spinning in the plate..

[fxrp]

Honestly, this looks like a half assed effort to fix a problem they created by not doing it right the first time, do the entire conversion kit or simply put  a set of stock tensioners in every 25 thousand or so. I have taken many stock bikes apart to find the outer cam bearings have been spinning in the plate at one time or the other, this kit does absolutely nothing to address that. This whole thing looks like backyard engineering to me, and a poor job of it at that.

They're not trying to fix anything, just cash in on a trend started by someone else's innovation.

[tomp]

Wouldn't it be possible for HD to now come out with a bearing race to retro-fit the new style cams in the old TC cases? Either this, or a case bearing retrofit with smaller races? Wouldn't these options allow for the use of the roller chain on the inner?

[Admiral Akbar]

If you go that route, might as well go with the Herko kit. Probably cheaper. Nothing wrong with the plain bearing setup. In fact it's better than the ball and roller setup. Max.

[tomp]

Some of us want off-the-shelf cam selection and availability without having to pay extra for them to be custom ground.

[ViennaHog]

Not so sure about the long term reliability. My previous Ultra at 16,000 miles bone stock cam chest.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[ViennaHog]

cam plate bore, same bike

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[smoserx1]

Wouldn't it be possible for HD to now come out with a bearing race to retrofit the new style cams in the old TC cases? Either this, or a case bearing retrofit with smaller races? Wouldn't these options allow for the use of the roller chain on the inner?

The problem with this is the new Harley roller chain cams have a larger 1 inch rear journal whereas the older Harley Morse chain type cams have a smaller journal (I believe it is 0.875 inch).  To actually use a new Harley cam with a full conversion in an older bike, you would have to get the journal of the new cam cut down, so a 0.875 race could be pressed on.  I guess you could theoretically take your engine apart and have the 0.875 holes in the right side case half enlarged to 1 inch, and then do a full conversion and use new Harley cams, but nobody really wants to do this--we want an easy retrofit.  The conversion cams like the Andrews "N" series have roller chain sprockets for the secondary chain, outer journals designed to work in the new cam plate without bearings, but retain the smaller 0.875 inner journal so they will work on older TC engines.  For someone who prefers a stock grind, Andrews has the 12N cam for those folks.  So Herko , Andrews and now others already have all the bases covered, and you get all the benefits of the new design, not just the new tensioners and an outer-only roller chain (maybe) with this new product from Harley.  The more we really think about the new Harley product, the worse it looks to some of us!!!

[Admiral Akbar]

"Not so sure about the long term reliability."

That looks more like an assembly cleanliness problem.. Maybe what Donny says about the filter bypassing oil is true (heaven forbid   ) Max.

[Rokinrider]

 I am planning on doing one of these retrofits next month. I have a question for Herko or whoever wants to help out. How is the new style cam plate holding up or is it too soon to tell. I'm not afraid to spend extra $$ for a different cams but if I can keep my 203s and go with this HD thing WTF. On the other hand installing one without outer bearings doesn't require a press?? I just need to quit tire kicking and support Herko instead of the MOCO.

Rokin

[Don D]

Vienna
Something went through there and the tight clearance is not forgiving.

[ViennaHog]

DH,
True, and not the only documented case. It is sad to see new engines shedding metal particles that move through the internals. Was a meticulously serviced bike with extra oil changes etc.. Similar scoring in the oil pump, no visible damage in the top end, well running.Rebuild the thing with new cams, cam plate and once we were at it 103 conversion with SE ACR heads. Could probably have run with the damage for many more miles.

[ederdelyi]

>>Something went through there and the tight clearance is not forgiving<<

Yep. One would think that the assembly plant procedures as far as cleanliness would be more than adequate, but they may have gotten a liitle lax being so used to having basically nothing but ball/roller bearings to contend with. Plain bearings don't take well to having anything but oil between the bearing surfaces.

As for the original topic --- just another option. I can see pros and cons on just about any of the available options that exist. As for tensioners on a Morse chain, no big deal. It's been done on many applications. True, the HD V-twin has some unique valve train dynamics, but I for one don't see a problem with it. For the earlier bikes, both carb and EFI (except for MM EFI) that wish to use the roller primary chain setup one can either use the Andrews gear or swap the ignition module/ECM for a later version that does not use the CPS. The MM EFI relies heavily on the CPS to time the injector pulse(s), don't think there is an easy way around that.
More choices can be good. I doubt that it's a "plot" from the MOCO as some have alluded to. They could have chosen to ignore the whole thing, instead they chose to offer another option. Good for them, it's more than many other manufacturers I have dealt with over the years would have done. JMHO

[seminolebagger]

Ed,

I thought that the andrews gear had the CPS ring on it for 99-01 bikes.  They list it on the parts sheet for the roller chain conversion as required for 99-01's. 


Tim

[ederdelyi]

>>I thought that the andrews gear had the CPS ring on it for 99-01 bikes.  They list it on the parts sheet for the roller chain conversion as required for 99-01's. <<

That's correct. I guess I wrote that a little on the confusing side. For other than MM EFI, the owners of early bikes that have an ignition module or ECM that used the CPS there are two options to be able to use the roller primary chain. Change the module/ECM or use the Andrews gear. MM EFI owners would only have the option to use the Andrews gear if they wanted to use the roller primary.

I hope that makes it more clear. To be honest, I don't think it's that big a deal. I've dealt with similar tensioners and Morse chains before ... lots of high mileage vehicles out there that use the same setup ... BWTFDIK! :>) I may try one in my own bike if I get the "urge" next time I'm in the cam chest.

[axtell]

correct me if I wrong..I think some of the ignitions no longer even acknowlege the cps...I believe the DTT doesn't...Ron

[fstbgr01]

if you remove the mm efi and replace it with a carb are you still stuck with only the cam gear or can you change the ignition to a later model so that it doesn't use a cps.

[ederdelyi]

>>correct me if I wrong..I think some of the ignitions no longer even acknowlege the cps...I believe the DTT doesn't...Ron<<

Nope. you be right :>) AFAIK, unless one specifically looks for an early aftermarket ignition/ECM to accomodate the CPS all of the later editions ignore the CPS. Later SE stuff does as well, late ('02 and up) OEM ignitions and Delphi ECM's don't use it either. I suspect that both OEM and SE modules available that used to look for it don't actually use it either, but I can't say that is true for all of them. I know that I replaced a couple that were supposed to look for it and disconnecting the CPS had no effect on the operation. The MM EFI never made that transition, HD went to the Delphi system across the line at the same time the quit using the CPS.

[ederdelyi]

>>if you remove the mm efi and replace it with a carb are you still stuck with only the cam gear or can you change the ignition to a later model so that it doesn't use a cps.<<

Absolutely. See my post above. Aftermarket or OEM/SE ignition modules are available that don't use the CPS