Mastertune vs. PowerVision

[Denfire621]

After trying the Power Commander V, Dobeck Gen. 4 (which was basically in beta testing when I tried it) and the Cobra Fi 2000 Powrpro, I bit the bullet and got the Powervision, myself. The bike actually runs pretty solid. I'm getting ready to put in Andrews 48H cams and can't wait to see how that goes. My first choice was actually the TTS Mastertune, but they didn't (still don't?) make a model for 2011 softails. Now that I have the Powervision, I'm glad I did! I'm getting a little more comfortable with the interface and slowly but surely starting to understand the whole thing a little better. Glad there are some other like-minded folks out there!

Den

[Onthefence]

The new PV tables look interesting. And probably create a bunch of questions.
What are the upper and lower limits of the Closed Loop Lambda Range ?
Map RPM Bias Global,Front,Rear ?

I wonder if the instructions will read something like this.

You are just making this too freaking hard.  There's no science to it.  Just poke a number in there and look for yourself what it does.  I am not going to explain how it really works, that's proprietary. Thanks for your $400.00.  Now put it back in the box, it's too advanced for you.

[oldguy]

The new PV tables look interesting. And probably create a bunch of questions.
What are the upper and lower limits of the Closed Loop Lambda Range ?
Map RPM Bias Global,Front,Rear ?

I wonder if the instructions will read something like this.

You are just making this too freaking hard.  There's no science to it.  Just poke a number in there and look for yourself what it does.  I am not going to explain how it really works, that's proprietary. Thanks for your $400.00.  Now put it back in the box, it's too advanced for you.

Don't know what the c/l limits are, I only tune open loop. The MAP rpm bias is a function of percentage change, so you can estimate how much your present idle kpa is relative to where you want it to be and act accordingly. I don't have any affiliation with PV,but it's the only one out there that you can watch what your motor is doing while riding, and make changes anytime you want while out on the road. Also can log/adjust for spark knock at the same time as doing air/fuel.

[Denfire621]

This is probably going to sound like a dumb question--please bear with me, I'm only just starting to understand what all is entailed with fuel injection, volumetric efficiency and the like. How do you tune open loop with the powervision? Isn't the PV set up basically for the purposes of tuning closed loop? Also, I asked the question of Jamie at Fuelmoto (it's Sunday, so he hasn't seen it yet) about simply using wide-band O2 sensors with the powervision. Couldn't you just adjust the stoichiometric to something a little richer? Am I asking ridiculous questions? ;-)

Den

[msocko3]

The new PV tables look interesting. And probably create a bunch of questions.
What are the upper and lower limits of the Closed Loop Lambda Range ?
Map RPM Bias Global,Front,Rear ?

I wonder if the instructions will read something like this.

You are just making this too freaking hard.  There's no science to it.  Just poke a number in there and look for yourself what it does.  I am not going to explain how it really works, that's proprietary. Thanks for your $400.00.  Now put it back in the box, it's too advanced for you.

Sure does sound familiar. FWIW If I was looking and tired of waiting I'd be giving the PV a try, it actually looks like they are jumping into the tuner race with a winning mind set.

[Onthefence]

Don't know what the c/l limits are, I only tune open loop. The MAP rpm bias is a function of percentage change, so you can estimate how much your present idle kpa is relative to where you want it to be and act accordingly. I don't have any affiliation with PV,but it's the only one out there that you can watch what your motor is doing while riding, and make changes anytime you want while out on the road. Also can log/adjust for spark knock at the same time as doing air/fuel.

I ask because I don't have a clue.  Why would I want to move the idle kpa? 

When reading their instructions on how to set the Global Bias, I am not sure I can unvravel what they are trying to say.  Run WOT from 0-100 MAP.  Then enter a number per cell that would when multiplied by actual map would equal 100?  SO at each RPM point, if I am 100% throttle,  I might see a 90% MAP, 101% 105% and am adjusting.

Oddly enough, If I look at my FuelMoto Map with the Beta Software, These tables have entries.  If I download a PV Map, these tables are 0.  Just wondering who supplied the values.  Did Log Tuner do this for me?  Or would this have been available to Fuel Moto ahead of me finding the Beta software.

[Onthefence]

Sure does sound familiar. FWIW If I was looking and tired of waiting I'd be giving the PV a try, it actually looks like they are jumping into the tuner race with a winning mind set.

I have both. I can only use the TTS for recording as it is married to my trade in.  They both have useful features.  I really like the TTS recording and calculators.  However, not screwing with a laptop to street tune is huge.  Probably not a big deal for a professional with a dyno.

[oldguy]

The c/l limits are realistically going to tied to the values your o2 sensor operates at, so something like 14.2 - 15 afr. The only reason you need to adjust the map bias is if you are having issues with too high (or too low) kpa at idle, usually a function of the characteristics of cam intake opening and closing. So if you have  stock cam and engine, you probably don't need to adjust it. It isn't quite like the functions on Mastertune, but serves it's purpose.
By the way, I'm just a "shade tree" tuner, not a pro, so if you need more info you'll need to talk to those with more knowledge.
HTH

[Steve Cole]

The c/l limits are realistically going to tied to the values your o2 sensor operates at, so something like 14.2 - 15 afr. The only reason you need to adjust the map bias is if you are having issues with too high (or too low) kpa at idle, usually a function of the characteristics of cam intake opening and closing. So if you have  stock cam and engine, you probably don't need to adjust it. It isn't quite like the functions on Mastertune, but serves it's purpose.
By the way, I'm just a "shade tree" tuner, not a pro, so if you need more info you'll need to talk to those with more knowledge.
HTH

While I have not seen what you guys are talking about let's just for a moment think about you trying to bias the MAP sensor. Why would this make any sense? Does anyone think that making the sensor output read different just to make it different solves anything? A Bias is nothing more than an offset applied to the reading. One thing I can tell you without a doubt there is NO such function in the ECM. There is however, a set of calibrations for the MAP sensor itself. The purpose of these tables is so that various suppliers of MAP sensors can be used. HD has used 3 different suppliers so far that I know of. The equipment needed to adjust the calibrations for the sensor are not going to be found in most shops, let along in a DIY home garage.

[Onthefence]

While I have not seen what you guys are talking about let's just for a moment think about you trying to bias the MAP sensor. Why would this make any sense? Does anyone think that making the sensor output read different just to make it different solves anything? A Bias is nothing more than an offset applied to the reading. One thing I can tell you without a doubt there is NO such function in the ECM. There is however, a set of calibrations for the MAP sensor itself. The purpose of these tables is so that various suppliers of MAP sensors can be used. HD has used 3 different suppliers so far that I know of. The equipment needed to adjust the calibrations for the sensor are not going to be found in most shops, let along in a DIY home garage.

The three tables are labled
Map Bias Front -  The description says EGR Effect front
Map Bias Global -
Map Bias Rear -   The description says EGR Effect rear

I saw a write up that led me to believe that at minimu the Front and Rear are mislabled and should be EGR Front/Rear. 

Just have to wait and see what the production lableing and instructions are.  For that matter they could all three disappear.

[oldguy]

I stand corrected.

[Jamie Long]

In the next several weeks there will be a pretty significant Power Vision firmware update, all of these new features and changes will be listed at that time on the FM website. The huge step forward is the full functionality of the Auto Tune Basic/Pro right on the touch screen display which allows you to make tune updates/corrections very easily. You will no longer need to export your logs and use the WinPV/Log Tuner software to populate tune corrections, no computer is needed! (although you can certainly continue to do so) With the new Auto Tune you have the ability to choose either the factory sensors or Dynojet AT/Wideband sensors and there are many other unique features as well. There will also be several new tables exposed in the tune items. Another new feature is called "Quick Tune" which allows you to adjust/tune most major tables and switches right from the PV display as well, this includes VE, Spark, Lambda/AF, Adaptive Control, and many others.

For those currently using Power Vision and are interested in trying these new features we do have a Beta version I would be more than happy to share. Just send an email to jamie@fuelmotousa.com

[Steve Cole]

While I have not seen what you guys are talking about let's just for a moment think about you trying to bias the MAP sensor. Why would this make any sense? Does anyone think that making the sensor output read different just to make it different solves anything? A Bias is nothing more than an offset applied to the reading. One thing I can tell you without a doubt there is NO such function in the ECM. There is however, a set of calibrations for the MAP sensor itself. The purpose of these tables is so that various suppliers of MAP sensors can be used. HD has used 3 different suppliers so far that I know of. The equipment needed to adjust the calibrations for the sensor are not going to be found in most shops, let along in a DIY home garage.

The three tables are labled
Map Bias Front -  The description says EGR Effect front
Map Bias Global -
Map Bias Rear -   The description says EGR Effect rear

I saw a write up that led me to believe that at minimu the Front and Rear are mislabled and should be EGR Front/Rear. 

Just have to wait and see what the production lableing and instructions are.  For that matter they could all three disappear.

Well if it's the EGR adjustments those have been in the TTS product for over a year now so that is very possible. There is NO Global EGR but one could fake that in the program and just make it add/subtract to both of the real tables if you wanted too.

[Jamie Long]

With the new Power Vision update there will be a handful of additional tables exposed in the calibrations and any earlier calibration can be updated very easily. Some of the more significant tables are what we are calling Charge Dilution Effect Front & Rear, a multiplier to normalize MAP based on RPM, and Spark correction by Head Temp and IAT Temp, there are also a handful of changes in the settings and switches. If using the Wideband Auto Tune module you now have the ability to display lambda as AFR, some of the logging strategies have been changed, and there are some new gauge themes. However by far the most awesome feature will be the new Auto Tune which as I noted earlier can be done completely right with the PV touch screen display. This is very, very cool stuff guys. Not only can you tune without a computer, you also have full control of the tune/learned parameters. Here is a list of the tune items you can configure when tuning with the PV display:
•   Min Hit Count (ticks) The minimum number of hits on a cell for learning to take place.
•   Min VE Learn (Percent) The minimum amount a VE cell needs to learn before a change will take place.
•   Max VE Learn (Percent) The maximum amount a VE cell is allowed to change, in VE units. Set this to 0 to disable VE learning.
•   Min Spark Learn (Degrees) The minimum amount a Spark cell needs to learn before a change will take place.
•   Max Spark Learn (Degrees) The maximum amount, in degrees, that a Spark cell is allowed to change. Set this to 0 to disable Spark learning. A good starting value would 10 degrees.
•   Min WB Lambda (Lambda) The richest value as measured on the Wideband in Pro Mode that is allowed. This is in Lambda.
•   Max WB Lambda (Lambda) The leanest value as measured on the Wideband in Pro Mode where learning is allowed. This is in Lambda.
•   Min Engine Temp (DegC) The coldest engine temperature where learning is allowed, entered in Degrees Celcius.
•   Max Engine Temp (DegC) The maximum engine temperature where learning is allowed, entered in Degrees Celcius.
•   Min RPM (rpm) The minimum engine speed where learning is allowed, in RPM.
•   Max RPM (rpm) The maximum engine speed where learning is allowed, in RPM.
•   Min MAP (KPA) The minimum MAP value where learning is allowed. This is used to filter out deceleration events.
•   Max MAP (KPA) The maximum MAP value where learning is allowed. This is usually marked as not used and set to something high, like 120 KPA.

As I noted earlier if anyone would like to try a Beta version of this update send an email to jamie@fuelmotousa.com and as always we offer 100% tuning and product support 

[Coyote]

I may have to buy another bike just so I can try it. 

[Ohio HD]

I may have to buy another bike just so I can try it. 

Can you set the ECM up to dual boot?    

[HV]

My 2013 RG wont be in for a few weeks... sure looks like im going to spring for the PV.....I need A tuner in any case...and Ill still be using the SESPTs at work.... I sure do like the real time display feature....amoung other things

[HV]

Any one have a list of Base maps available ? 

[Coyote]

My 2013 RG wont be in for a few weeks... sure looks like im going to spring for the PV.....I need A tuner in any case...and Ill still be using the SESPTs at work.... I sure do like the real time display feature....amoung other things

Yeah, me too. And I really like Jamie's flexibility.   

I'd love to try it on my 11 RG even though I like the way my TTS tune is running now. Would be interesting to throw some wide bands in and see what I could do.

[msocko3]

I have both. I can only use the TTS for recording as it is married to my trade in. 

The TTS goes with my trade in, kind of a mean thing to do to someone not including the tuner it was tuned with especially if the ECM is locked.

[Onthefence]

I have both. I can only use the TTS for recording as it is married to my trade in. 

The TTS goes with my trade in, kind of a mean thing to do to someone not including the tuner it was tuned with especially if the ECM is locked.

That bike only had slipons and A/C.  I put the stock parts back on and reflashed with the back up mte.  Doesn't that put the ecm back to factory and leave it in a state that other tuners can marry to it?  I understood that it did, and that I ended up with a device that could be upgraded, or used as is for recording if I wanted.

[Steve Cole]

If you returned the bike to stock then the ECM is just how it was before you did anything to it. Anyone can do anything they like with it.

[FSG]

I understood that it did, ......... 

correct

......  and that I ended up with a device that could be upgraded, ....

EDIT: incorrect  correct , I'd overlooked the upgrade to a 2 bike TTS, which would result in a TTS that could be married to a new bike.   

..... or used as is for recording if I wanted.

correct

I would have let it go with the bike.

[Coyote]

I traded my 2010 RG and kept the TTS dongle. Then I sent it in and had it upgraded to a two bike unit and used it on my 2011. Less money for me that way.

Not sure at the time I had become aware of the TTS locking the ECM deal. 

[JohnC]

I love my FuelMoto headpipe and I know that with my next bike, I'll be going with the PV tuner instead of the TTS I'm currently using.  Although the TTS is not complicated, it seems to me that the new PV tuner will do the same thing and in a much simpler package not requiring an external PC. 

But to me, customer service after the sale goes a long way and I don't think you can get better support for their products than from Jamie at FuelMoto.