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Water temperature code in ECM??

Started by Hillside Motorcycle, July 04, 2013, 03:32:07 PM

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Hillside Motorcycle

Heard from one of the shops we are in contact with, that a water temp code surfaced, on a late 2013 touring model.
What's up with that, or do I already know that answer?
Scott
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

rking1550

I hope he was talking about his truck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

Hillside Motorcycle

Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

truck

Quote from: HILLSIDECYCLE on July 04, 2013, 03:32:07 PM
Heard from one of the shops we are in contact with, that a water temp code surfaced, on a late 2013 touring model.
What's up with that, or do I already know that answer?
Scott
I knew it was coming!! :teeth:
Listen to the jingle the rumble and the roar.

slo-poke 03

very interesting, I always used to say if you wanted to know what a company was doing, get to the bean counters. I guess I could add, get to the programmers now.

Ohio HD

Coming to an HD dealer near you in 2015, WATER....     :tfhat:

ThumperDeuce

Are the engines compatible enough that the v rod and air cooled engines could use the same ECM so it would be a cost saving thing?  You bagger guys like to ride in the rain a lot so maybe you could use the signal to modify the timing and fuel tables to compensate for the rain temperature being sucked into the intake  :wink:
Idiots are fun, no wonder every village wants one.

Ohio HD

Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 04, 2013, 04:34:05 PM
Are the engines compatible enough that the v rod and air cooled engines could use the same ECM so it would be a cost saving thing?  You bagger guys like to ride in the rain a lot so maybe you could use the signal to modify the timing and fuel tables to compensate for the rain temperature being sucked into the intake  :wink:

ha ha ha ha   :up:

1931jamesw

What exactly was the trouble code?

Coyote


Ohio HD


1931jamesw


Durwood

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2013, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 04, 2013, 04:34:05 PM
Are the engines compatible enough that the v rod and air cooled engines could use the same ECM so it would be a cost saving thing?  You bagger guys like to ride in the rain a lot so maybe you could use the signal to modify the timing and fuel tables to compensate for the rain temperature being sucked into the intake  :wink:

ha ha ha ha   :up:
Does tts have a W-tune feature..  :hyst:

rbabos

Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 04, 2013, 04:34:05 PM
Are the engines compatible enough that the v rod and air cooled engines could use the same ECM so it would be a cost saving thing?  You bagger guys like to ride in the rain a lot so maybe you could use the signal to modify the timing and fuel tables to compensate for the rain temperature being sucked into the intake  :wink:
I suspect they are the same. Engine temp can be water or head, just different temps in play with different sensors.
Ron

gordonr

I heard a story about the older race tuner was limited to 7000 rpm and the vrod software wasn't. So....
"If was easy everyone would do it"

Ohio HD

Quote from: Durwood on July 04, 2013, 05:34:43 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2013, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 04, 2013, 04:34:05 PM
Are the engines compatible enough that the v rod and air cooled engines could use the same ECM so it would be a cost saving thing?  You bagger guys like to ride in the rain a lot so maybe you could use the signal to modify the timing and fuel tables to compensate for the rain temperature being sucked into the intake  :wink:

ha ha ha ha   :up:
Does tts have a W-tune feature..  :hyst:

Be nice Durwood!   :hyst:

Jaycee1964

Everyone will be "Drowning" in sorrow the day it comes...
If you have to stop and think about if it is right or wrong, Assume it is wrong.

1FSTRK

Looking at the design of the FLH2O heads it will be interesting to see how many head porters will turn them into water cooled exhaust. Could be the end of hogging out the exhaust ports.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

pstreetglide62

We will find out when we go to right up the road to the 110th in a month or so.Reminds me of when motocross bikes started water cooling the heads first.  Paul :smile:

Hillside Motorcycle

Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

rbabos

Quote from: HILLSIDECYCLE on July 05, 2013, 04:29:08 AM
Hydro-Glides coming soon.
Scott
Eventually. Still room with the air cooled to pass EPA from what I see.
Ron

Bakon

Heard rumor of no Roadglide for a year or so, then reintroduced. Seemed fishy since they are finally catching on as cool, but maybe they will be the first swimmers since the shark nose and all.
wasting time

Showdog75

Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

ThumperDeuce

July 05, 2013, 06:58:01 AM #23 Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 07:00:43 AM by ThumperDeuce
Quote from: Showdog75 on July 05, 2013, 06:44:10 AM
Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

A water cooled engine may be thermodynamically superior to an air cooled engine but I think a radiator ruins the lines ( appearance ) of  a v-twin.
Idiots are fun, no wonder every village wants one.

truck

Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 05, 2013, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: Showdog75 on July 05, 2013, 06:44:10 AM
Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

A water cooled engine may be thermodynamically superior to an air cooled engine but I think a radiator ruins the lines ( appearance ) of  a v-twin.
Not if the two radiators are hidden in the lower fairing as shown in the patent drawings.
http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2011/06/21/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/
Listen to the jingle the rumble and the roar.

BVHOG

A water temp CEL in the Direct link centurion will read coolant temp sensor on the MM bikes when in fact it is talking about the head temp sensor.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

ThumperDeuce

Quote from: truck on July 05, 2013, 07:06:57 AM
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on July 05, 2013, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: Showdog75 on July 05, 2013, 06:44:10 AM
Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

A water cooled engine may be thermodynamically superior to an air cooled engine but I think a radiator ruins the lines ( appearance ) of  a v-twin.
Not if the two radiators are hidden in the lower fairing as shown in the patent drawings.
http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2011/06/21/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

A fairing on a motorcycle may be aerodynamically superior to a non-faired motorcycle but I think a fairing ruins the lines ( appearance ) of a v-twin.

Not really I just have a stupid sense of humor.  I never thought about hiding the radiators in the fairing.  The drawings look ok.  I don't like the look when the radiators are hung out in the open in front of the engine.
Idiots are fun, no wonder every village wants one.

Ohio HD

All the required components will probably be laid out similar to this VN2000. Another nice advantage to water cooling...   bigger motors!   :chop:

[attach=0]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

kd

It makes sense, if the MoCo is going water cooled (and we all believe that) they would use a design they have worked on and patented (VN2000 as shown by Ohio HD). I see that the reservoir tank sits directly above the area where the FLH 2-1-2 crossover pipe goes. Does this mean the 2-1-2 pipe will go away, be redesigned or a new frame section or ????.  Just wondering!!
KD

sfmichael

July 05, 2013, 09:18:19 AM #29 Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 09:25:12 AM by sfmichael
Quote from: Showdog75 on July 05, 2013, 06:44:10 AM
Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

  Definitely

  But then we also lose some small level of tradition and simplicity. With water cooling comes more moving parts, more parts to fail, and more complex systems and repairs. I'm all for progress, but this ain't Formula One. Air cooled has worked for over a hundred years, and worked fairly well. But then again, I like old Volkswagens. Maybe I'm not the guy to ask... :idunno:
Colorado Springs, CO.

FLTRI

Don't be surprised to see 2014 Ultras and Trikes equipped with this new water cooled system. :wink:
Bob
The best we've experienced is the best we know
Always keep eyes and mind open

wavlovr1

Lots of friends have gone over to trikes over the past few years. Plenty of complaints from them on getting "baked" while is slow or stop and go traffic. Seems to getting worse with each new year model too. They already are coming with oil coolers, but doesn't seem to help at all with the cooking issues. I would bet on water cooling of some kind on trikes in the near future, and possibly Road Glides. with radiators in lowers.

My 2009 SG was delivered with the 103 stage II kit. It would cook you even at highway speeds. I used TTS to run a richer fuel mixture and it helped with my comfort, but took a lot of extra fuel to cool it down. Then my wife complained about her thigh getting cooked so I added the frame deflectors; but that just threw the heat down on her right foot... Last trip into the dealer for some repairs and I had them add an oil cooler. That had a dramatic impact on running temps, lowering it 30-40 degrees while moving along. Of course you get in traffic or stop and go and the cooler no longer functions so I just ordered the two fans for the cooler that use the thermostat to control air flow over the cooler in no air flow conditions. Can't wait to install them and test results..

Harley sales may hold for a while, but many of my friends are buying BMWs and Yamahas now as their second bike instead of Harleys. Just looked at a friend's Yamaha yesterday with 145 TQ from the factory and no cooking issues. Harley needs to step it up in HP, TQ, and Temp control or it is gonna hurt them in the long run.

jb

Ohio HD

Quote from: wavlovr1 on July 05, 2013, 12:21:03 PM
Lots of friends have gone over to trikes over the past few years. Plenty of complaints from them on getting "baked" while is slow or stop and go traffic. Seems to getting worse with each new year model too. They already are coming with oil coolers, but doesn't seem to help at all with the cooking issues. I would bet on water cooling of some kind on trikes in the near future, and possibly Road Glides. with radiators in lowers.

My 2009 SG was delivered with the 103 stage II kit. It would cook you even at highway speeds. I used TTS to run a richer fuel mixture and it helped with my comfort, but took a lot of extra fuel to cool it down. Then my wife complained about her thigh getting cooked so I added the frame deflectors; but that just threw the heat down on her right foot... Last trip into the dealer for some repairs and I had them add an oil cooler. That had a dramatic impact on running temps, lowering it 30-40 degrees while moving along. Of course you get in traffic or stop and go and the cooler no longer functions so I just ordered the two fans for the cooler that use the thermostat to control air flow over the cooler in no air flow conditions. Can't wait to install them and test results..

Harley sales may hold for a while, but many of my friends are buying BMWs and Yamahas now as their second bike instead of Harleys. Just looked at a friend's Yamaha yesterday with 145 TQ from the factory and no cooking issues. Harley needs to step it up in HP, TQ, and Temp control or it is gonna hurt them in the long run.

jb

Honestly, that's why I bought the Kaw VN2000 when I did, I wanted a new bike, I knew I was gonna be crossing the country many times in a 4 year period, and I wanted something that could handle long distance with high speeds, and be a v-twin. I've had a Harley in my garage since I was 19 years old. But in 2005 when I was looking, there was still a lot of issues with the chain tensioners, a new stock 88 wasn't gonna get it when I had a 1987 Softail with an S&S 98" kit, in the garage to ride. And I can't buy a new bike with an Evo, so I bought the VN2000. At 125 inches and water cooled, that bike took a beating for 70,000 + hard miles, back and forth across the country, and my only means of transportation when i lived in Phoenix. And never broke down.

I traded it in on my 2009 Ultra before I left Phoenix, but it was a damn good bike.

Bike31

Like many, I've owned a few hybrid air/water/oil cooled V-Twin bikes (Suzuki V-Strom 650, M50, M109, C109). They performed well, and engine heat was not objectionable as it was tempered some by blending with ambient air through the radiator. They also employed some advanced engine management tech compared to my HD's (dual ignition for example) which tends to reduce header temps.

My question regarding water cooling on Harleys is where will they dump the heat? It'll still be there, the water just transfers it to another location for removal. Fans may blow it forward away from the rider at slow speeds. I still think HD could improve their oil cooling before going to water, similar to BMW's recent engine evolution.

Same for the CAT. On bikes with it in the headers, move it to the mufflers behind the rider like the Softails and others currently do, or at least fully shroud the header/CAT area and duct it to the rear.

It'll be interesting to see what heat issues Indian has. Maybe they designed their new mill with that in mind. The Vision I owned didn't have a heat problem partially due to better oil cooling.   

Ancient

Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.
Greg

Ohio HD

Quote from: Ancient on July 05, 2013, 01:30:42 PM
Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.

:hyst:


Yes, in both radiators...      :potstir:

Bike31


Ohio HD

I think you'll have to use holy water in them...     :potstir:

rbabos

Quote from: Ancient on July 05, 2013, 01:30:42 PM
Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.
Now that's funny. :hyst: Already experienced that on the v rod forum.
Ron

ken6217

Quote from: Bike31 on July 05, 2013, 01:13:26 PM

My question regarding water cooling on Harleys is where will they dump the heat? It'll still be there, the water just transfers it to another location for removal. Fans may blow it forward away from the rider at slow speeds. I still think HD could improve their oil cooling before going to water, similar to BMW's recent engine evolution.


This is a very good point. I know a few people that have a BMW K1600, water cooled 6 cyl. The bike is very hot on your feet/leg once it gets 80 degrees or higher out. The fan doesn't do a great job of moving the heat away. There used to be a lot of threads in the Beemer forums on this subject.
Ken

FSG


Bike31

Quote from: ken6217 on July 05, 2013, 02:04:35 PM
This is a very good point. I know a few people that have a BMW K1600, water cooled 6 cyl. The bike is very hot on your feet/leg once it gets 80 degrees or higher out. The fan doesn't do a great job of moving the heat away. There used to be a lot of threads in the Beemer forums on this subject.
Ken

I agree re: the K1600's. I owned them for a while. The radiator is in front of the headers, and the combo superheats the radiator exhaust, particularly on the left side. In comparison, on the traditional Boxer R1200RT, with a large oil cooler in front of the steering head and normal BMW air head cooling, heat wasn't an issue. The new W/C BMW motor appears to be even better, but I've not ridden one yet.

My concern is that HD will simply truck along with existing engine/frame design and controls, and sell the water aspect as a temporary fix for heat issues.

What I'd like to know is how close to EPA (or whatever) emission standards are the current HD engines? Is the only wiggle room available via water cooling, departure from traditional styling concerns and marketing aside? Some out the exhaust data is available via the permits listed on CARB webpage.

If it's going to take another TC design revision, then do it soon. Adding water will only prolong the inevitable redesign if that's really the problem they're trying to solve.


runamuck

yes- with radiators in lowers, couldnt take them off after winter like I do. would flip riding season to fall/winter with 2 radiators blowing hot air right on your legs. would make my annual labor day weekend ride from ft. worth to durango, co. pretty dicey on the west texas/east new mexico portion. on the bright side I could cook a pot roast or brisket packed in there like some old timers who used to toss a roast on their engine manifold on a long trip.

FLTRI

There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions! :hyst:

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

The best we've experienced is the best we know
Always keep eyes and mind open

Durwood

Quote from: FLTRI on July 07, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions! :hyst:

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob
Ron did :hyst:

sfmichael

Quote from: Durwood on July 07, 2013, 11:35:49 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on July 07, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions! :hyst:

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob
Ron did :hyst:

funny   :teeth:
Colorado Springs, CO.

ken6217

Quote from: FLTRI on July 07, 2013, 09:50:43 AM
There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions! :hyst:

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

Well if that was the case, then there wouldn't be a lot of pissed of owners of BMW K1600GT's. Obviously the people that designed the engine didn't plan on throwing heat on the riders feet, but that's what happened. I assume that the Moco BMW gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

OTH hand, BMW refuses to acknowledge that this is an issue.
Ken

JBarrettB

Are we sure the owner didn't wash the bike bike with water that was too hot?
Sorry Jack Daniels made me do it.

JB
CAUTION: Comments may be sarcastic, clarification available upon request.

FLTRI

BMWs main market is in Europe and heat has t been an issue with their weather.
Bob
The best we've experienced is the best we know
Always keep eyes and mind open

ken6217

Bob,
I test rode one for about an hour. I know people that have that bike. You can do a Google search on heat and K1600GT and see. Kawasaki Concours through heat right on the rider until they redirected the heat away from the rider a couple of years ago.

Does this mean that a potential water cooled Harley will have heat issues? No. But I wouldn't blindly say that there is no way it can't happen.
Ken

Tsani

ᏣᎳᎩ ᎤᏕᏅ ᎠᏴ ᎠᎩᎸᏗ ᏔᎷᎩᏍᎩ ᎠᏂᏐᏈᎵ
ᎠᏎᏊᎢ Leonard Peltier

kd

Just thinkin .... again.   :fish:  What if the newer higher flowing oil pump (which many top builders claim isn't necessary) was introduced to flow more oil to a future "oil head" design?  :nix:  It is known that the Mo Co has been dabbling in that for a few years (XR1200R) and applied for such a patent in 2010. With the higher flow pump and a redesigned oil cooler, flow to the heads, and oil drains in the barrels (like our old pans and shovels) to the low mount oil pans, very few cosmetic changes would have to be made.

The Mo Co customer base has been nurtured and is loyal no matter what as long as the traditional things are attached to their motorcycles. The low rpm air cooled engine is a huge part of it. To change the look too much trying to hide a rad would put them in the "metric" competition field. Harley likely couldn't compete with the metric prices and sales in the field they have so soundly secured. The V-Rod (sorry but no disrespect intended because I like em too) appeared to be Harley's attempt to branch out into new designs and their sales do not seem to be too robust.  Most of us wouldn't buy one. They are too specialised. Not traditional enough.

Harley has worked very hard to please their main market, people who are prepared to pay the price for a traditional Harley and resist change. The "after sale" money to be made in bling, performance accessories, and brand licencing would be in jeopardy. If I was a shareholder I'D BE BAILING!   :unsure:

Maybe I think too much?  :scratch:
KD

Bike31

I'm frankly surprised that HD hasn't developed a higher heat transfer system via oil cooling. The coolers they do offer are a joke compared with BMW for example. Small and w/o an idle fan. Maybe they tried, but the oil couldn't pull down the engine temps with more directed flow and larger coolers. The oil gets cooled via the cooler, but maybe not the heads. Redesign may be in order if Indian nips at their heels.

The Softails with the exposed tank probably work better than the A-engines with the integral sumps. Plus they could offer a finned aluminum tank like Yamaha and others on that model. But then it would look new, not old, and that might hurt sales.

euchre98

Its a code found in a data table stored in the ECM....Its code reutilization.....Very common in the software word. More than likely what we'll see is the same ECM across the board in all the bikes and just various programs loaded for each model. The data tables remain the same. Saves HD money and cuts down on the number of programmers you have to pay and put up with thier quirky BS.

But what would I know I've only been testing software for 15 years for DoD.........Most days I'd rather go back to being a John Deere mechanic.....