Water temperature code in ECM??

[BVHOG]

A water temp CEL in the Direct link centurion will read coolant temp sensor on the MM bikes when in fact it is talking about the head temp sensor.

[ThumperDeuce]

Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

A water cooled engine may be thermodynamically superior to an air cooled engine but I think a radiator ruins the lines ( appearance ) of  a v-twin.

Not if the two radiators are hidden in the lower fairing as shown in the patent drawings.
http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2011/06/21/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

A fairing on a motorcycle may be aerodynamically superior to a non-faired motorcycle but I think a fairing ruins the lines ( appearance ) of a v-twin.

Not really I just have a stupid sense of humor.  I never thought about hiding the radiators in the fairing.  The drawings look ok.  I don't like the look when the radiators are hung out in the open in front of the engine.

[Ohio HD]

All the required components will probably be laid out similar to this VN2000. Another nice advantage to water cooling...   bigger motors!   

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[kd]

It makes sense, if the MoCo is going water cooled (and we all believe that) they would use a design they have worked on and patented (VN2000 as shown by Ohio HD). I see that the reservoir tank sits directly above the area where the FLH 2-1-2 crossover pipe goes. Does this mean the 2-1-2 pipe will go away, be redesigned or a new frame section or ?.  Just wondering!!

[sfmichael]

Water will be great, better temp control=higher compression=higher potential Hp on pump gas. Win win

  Definitely

  But then we also lose some small level of tradition and simplicity. With water cooling comes more moving parts, more parts to fail, and more complex systems and repairs. I'm all for progress, but this ain't Formula One. Air cooled has worked for over a hundred years, and worked fairly well. But then again, I like old Volkswagens. Maybe I'm not the guy to ask...

[FLTRI]

Don't be surprised to see 2014 Ultras and Trikes equipped with this new water cooled system.
Bob

[wavlovr1]

Lots of friends have gone over to trikes over the past few years. Plenty of complaints from them on getting "baked" while is slow or stop and go traffic. Seems to getting worse with each new year model too. They already are coming with oil coolers, but doesn't seem to help at all with the cooking issues. I would bet on water cooling of some kind on trikes in the near future, and possibly Road Glides. with radiators in lowers.

My 2009 SG was delivered with the 103 stage II kit. It would cook you even at highway speeds. I used TTS to run a richer fuel mixture and it helped with my comfort, but took a lot of extra fuel to cool it down. Then my wife complained about her thigh getting cooked so I added the frame deflectors; but that just threw the heat down on her right foot... Last trip into the dealer for some repairs and I had them add an oil cooler. That had a dramatic impact on running temps, lowering it 30-40 degrees while moving along. Of course you get in traffic or stop and go and the cooler no longer functions so I just ordered the two fans for the cooler that use the thermostat to control air flow over the cooler in no air flow conditions. Can't wait to install them and test results..

Harley sales may hold for a while, but many of my friends are buying BMWs and Yamahas now as their second bike instead of Harleys. Just looked at a friend's Yamaha yesterday with 145 TQ from the factory and no cooking issues. Harley needs to step it up in HP, TQ, and Temp control or it is gonna hurt them in the long run.

jb

[Ohio HD]

Lots of friends have gone over to trikes over the past few years. Plenty of complaints from them on getting "baked" while is slow or stop and go traffic. Seems to getting worse with each new year model too. They already are coming with oil coolers, but doesn't seem to help at all with the cooking issues. I would bet on water cooling of some kind on trikes in the near future, and possibly Road Glides. with radiators in lowers.

My 2009 SG was delivered with the 103 stage II kit. It would cook you even at highway speeds. I used TTS to run a richer fuel mixture and it helped with my comfort, but took a lot of extra fuel to cool it down. Then my wife complained about her thigh getting cooked so I added the frame deflectors; but that just threw the heat down on her right foot... Last trip into the dealer for some repairs and I had them add an oil cooler. That had a dramatic impact on running temps, lowering it 30-40 degrees while moving along. Of course you get in traffic or stop and go and the cooler no longer functions so I just ordered the two fans for the cooler that use the thermostat to control air flow over the cooler in no air flow conditions. Can't wait to install them and test results..

Harley sales may hold for a while, but many of my friends are buying BMWs and Yamahas now as their second bike instead of Harleys. Just looked at a friend's Yamaha yesterday with 145 TQ from the factory and no cooking issues. Harley needs to step it up in HP, TQ, and Temp control or it is gonna hurt them in the long run.

jb

Honestly, that's why I bought the Kaw VN2000 when I did, I wanted a new bike, I knew I was gonna be crossing the country many times in a 4 year period, and I wanted something that could handle long distance with high speeds, and be a v-twin. I've had a Harley in my garage since I was 19 years old. But in 2005 when I was looking, there was still a lot of issues with the chain tensioners, a new stock 88 wasn't gonna get it when I had a 1987 Softail with an S&S 98" kit, in the garage to ride. And I can't buy a new bike with an Evo, so I bought the VN2000. At 125 inches and water cooled, that bike took a beating for 70,000 + hard miles, back and forth across the country, and my only means of transportation when i lived in Phoenix. And never broke down.

I traded it in on my 2009 Ultra before I left Phoenix, but it was a damn good bike.

[Bike31]

Like many, I've owned a few hybrid air/water/oil cooled V-Twin bikes (Suzuki V-Strom 650, M50, M109, C109). They performed well, and engine heat was not objectionable as it was tempered some by blending with ambient air through the radiator. They also employed some advanced engine management tech compared to my HD's (dual ignition for example) which tends to reduce header temps.

My question regarding water cooling on Harleys is where will they dump the heat? It'll still be there, the water just transfers it to another location for removal. Fans may blow it forward away from the rider at slow speeds. I still think HD could improve their oil cooling before going to water, similar to BMW's recent engine evolution.

Same for the CAT. On bikes with it in the headers, move it to the mufflers behind the rider like the Softails and others currently do, or at least fully shroud the header/CAT area and duct it to the rear.

It'll be interesting to see what heat issues Indian has. Maybe they designed their new mill with that in mind. The Vision I owned didn't have a heat problem partially due to better oil cooling.   

[Ancient]

Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.

[Ohio HD]

Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.

Yes, in both radiators...     

[Bike31]

May as well start the speculation now. Here comes another coolant thread, 

http://www.evanscooling.com

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

[Ohio HD]

I think you'll have to use holy water in them...     

[rbabos]

Can't wait for the, "Do I really have to use Syn 3 anti-freeze?" threads.

Now that's funny. Already experienced that on the v rod forum.
Ron

[ken6217]

My question regarding water cooling on Harleys is where will they dump the heat? It'll still be there, the water just transfers it to another location for removal. Fans may blow it forward away from the rider at slow speeds. I still think HD could improve their oil cooling before going to water, similar to BMW's recent engine evolution.

This is a very good point. I know a few people that have a BMW K1600, water cooled 6 cyl. The bike is very hot on your feet/leg once it gets 80 degrees or higher out. The fan doesn't do a great job of moving the heat away. There used to be a lot of threads in the Beemer forums on this subject.
Ken

[FSG]

May as well start the speculation now. Here comes another coolant thread, 

http://www.evanscooling.com

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

Don't forget http://liquidintelligence115.com.au/

[Bike31]

This is a very good point. I know a few people that have a BMW K1600, water cooled 6 cyl. The bike is very hot on your feet/leg once it gets 80 degrees or higher out. The fan doesn't do a great job of moving the heat away. There used to be a lot of threads in the Beemer forums on this subject.
Ken

I agree re: the K1600's. I owned them for a while. The radiator is in front of the headers, and the combo superheats the radiator exhaust, particularly on the left side. In comparison, on the traditional Boxer R1200RT, with a large oil cooler in front of the steering head and normal BMW air head cooling, heat wasn't an issue. The new W/C BMW motor appears to be even better, but I've not ridden one yet.

My concern is that HD will simply truck along with existing engine/frame design and controls, and sell the water aspect as a temporary fix for heat issues.

What I'd like to know is how close to EPA (or whatever) emission standards are the current HD engines? Is the only wiggle room available via water cooling, departure from traditional styling concerns and marketing aside? Some out the exhaust data is available via the permits listed on CARB webpage.

If it's going to take another TC design revision, then do it soon. Adding water will only prolong the inevitable redesign if that's really the problem they're trying to solve.

[runamuck]

yes- with radiators in lowers, couldnt take them off after winter like I do. would flip riding season to fall/winter with 2 radiators blowing hot air right on your legs. would make my annual labor day weekend ride from ft. worth to durango, co. pretty dicey on the west texas/east new mexico portion. on the bright side I could cook a pot roast or brisket packed in there like some old timers who used to toss a roast on their engine manifold on a long trip.

[FLTRI]

There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions!

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

[Durwood]

There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions!

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

Ron did

[sfmichael]

There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions!

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

Ron did

funny   

[ken6217]

There is NOTHING quite like pre-conceived notions!

I assume the MOCO gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

Lets face it. Adding radiators to a system that INCREASES heat to the rider and/or passenger would be, well, an exercise in futility as who would buy one?

JMHO,
Bob

Well if that was the case, then there wouldn't be a lot of pissed of owners of BMW K1600GT's. Obviously the people that designed the engine didn't plan on throwing heat on the riders feet, but that's what happened. I assume that the Moco BMW gave considerable thought to ducting radiated heat from the radiators away from the rider and passenger.

OTH hand, BMW refuses to acknowledge that this is an issue.
Ken

[JBarrettB]

Are we sure the owner didn't wash the bike bike with water that was too hot?
Sorry Jack Daniels made me do it.

JB

[FLTRI]

BMWs main market is in Europe and heat has t been an issue with their weather.
Bob

[ken6217]

Bob,
I test rode one for about an hour. I know people that have that bike. You can do a Google search on heat and K1600GT and see. Kawasaki Concours through heat right on the rider until they redirected the heat away from the rider a couple of years ago.

Does this mean that a potential water cooled Harley will have heat issues? No. But I wouldn't blindly say that there is no way it can't happen.
Ken