Andrews tensioner conversion or gear drive

[Dynawhite]

OK, I'm soliciting opinions, or facts if you have them, on upgrading '03 TC 88 tensioners to the HD roller tensioners using Andrews kit or gear drive cams. Are the new nylon tensioners going to last a long, long time vs biting the bullet and going with gears for the long haul. I sent a PM to Herko, who seems to have a good deal of info on the conversion and hope others can add to it.

[TXChop]

For me it depends on crank runout. Less than .003 than gear drive is nice. More than .003 the hydra setup works well....Wayyyy more than .003 new crank.

[PoorUB]

OK, I'm soliciting opinions, or facts if you have them, on upgrading '03 TC 88 tensioners to the HD roller tensioners using Andrews kit or gear drive cams. Are the new nylon tensioners going to last a long, long time vs biting the bullet and going with gears for the long haul. I sent a PM to Herko, who seems to have a good deal of info on the conversion and hope others can add to it.

Going with gear drive is no guarentee for the long haul either! I have done quite a bit of research on this and believe the updated tensioners are the way to go.
Ask around and see how many problems you can find on the '07 and newer bikes, them ask around about gear drive failures, for what ever reason. You will find more riders have had problems with few thousand gear drives installed, compared to the million Twin Cams HD has put out with the new tensioners.

[Sonny S.]

I've installed both and have run both. Roller chain set up is the way to go for a mild build. Breeze to install, quiet, and dependable.
However, if I were building a big inch, super high lift cam motor, I'd go gears, and welded crank of course.

Sonny

[Billy]

What Sonny said! 

[WozzA]

  as previously stated... if your crank run out is 3 thou or more go with the chain drive...
fortuantly mine came in at 1.5 thou of a inch ...   and I couldnt be happier with the GEAR DRIVE   

[RoadKingTrooper]

What Sonny S said
Scot

[bfancy]

Is runout checked with the cam plate on like the picture in post #6 by Wozza? I recently installed the roller chain conversion kit on my '05 Ultra and I checked the pinion shaft runout with the cam plate and oil pump removed; it was .003". It would most likely have been less with the cam plate not removed. Is that a correct assumption?

[Billy]

In the past I haven't been able to measure any difference either way.

I now just measure with the plate on as that is what the sprocket or gear will "feel".

[tbird]

What's wrong with staying with the old set-up. Change out every 40-50 tho miles and your good to go. I changed out 2 sets w/45,000 miles and neither were in bad shape.  With the chain now self polished they should be good until 100,000. Cost is minimal, less than 200 for parts. Both the other options are quite a bit more coin.

[Tattoo]

I changed a set that had 45,000 miles on them last spring, I could'nt believe how good of shape they were in. The customer who was the original owner told me he changes his oil every 3,000 miles since day 1.

[egstandard]

I totally agree tbird

[Billy]

What's wrong with staying with the old set-up. Change out every 40-50 tho miles and your good to go. I changed out 2 sets w/45,000 miles and neither were in bad shape.  With the chain now self polished they should be good until 100,000. Cost is minimal, less than 200 for parts. Both the other options are quite a bit more coin.

Nothing.

Tensioner wear is hit or miss, I haven't been able to find a trend. I've seen'em wore to the metal at 17k miles and seen'em OK @ 35k+. Syn or dino, regular oil changes, nothing adds up.

I think most folks who convert want some peace of mind especially if they ride lots of touring miles.

[Tattoo]

I think most folks who convert want some peace of mind especially if they ride lots of touring miles.

Oh yes, I have seen many vacations go bad from those tensioners. You feel bad when they come in the yard on a flatbed and there many miles from home.

[Sonny S.]

Billy...... EXACTLY !!!!

You can't put a price tag on peace of mind. I remember when the early TC's were having rear cam bearing failure. Every time I rode my 00FXDWG I spent more time listening for noises than enjoying the ride. Rear ball bearing got switched to a roller real quick.

Sonny

[Faast Ed]

Tensioner wear is hit or miss, I haven't been able to find a trend.

I've had the same observations.

[fxrp]

. . . but with the probability that these cranks can & do shift, why would anyone want to install gears into an OEM crank when today we have the roller option?

Absolutely 

[Dynawhite]

So how long do you think it should take a competent mechanic to do the upgrade. I've already been quoted 8-10 hours. Does that sound right?

[Faast Ed]

Winter is upon us. Spend a weekend in your garage and do the upgrade yourself (with the help of HTT).

Unless you are real unfreindly with tools, it can be done at home.

[wrenchspinner3]

8-10 hours seems a bit on the high side. 6 hours seems more reasonable. With a Touring bike, in order to access the cam chest, just to re & re the exhaust system takes time, although if they are lucky, they can get the front header pipe off without removing the entire exhaust system.

[topcat3815]

 I am not claiming to be an expert but I have installed a lot of gear drive set ups and the conversion set ups. I prefer the conversion over the gear drives  because they are much easier to install  no special tools or pressing in bearings and cams or worrying about to loose or to tight gear  lash, they are much more forgiving of crank runout and what I really like they eliminate the outer bearings , just less to worry about.

[flht1550]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not haveing bearings

[Billy]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not haveing bearings

The outer bearing surfaces run on a film of pressure fed oil, like the big twins of '36-'99 vintage and the cam, rod and main bearings of most if not all automotive applications. Far superior IMHO.

[JOS]

Just pulled my '01 FLHT apart for a BB and mild head work build and decided I'd better check the tensioners. Wow, good thing I did. Pic 1 is the inner tensioner, motor has 58k and has been on syn oil since about 3k miles. I replaced the tensioners at about 18k on the motor when I went to a 203 cam. Pic 2 shows both of the old tensioners.

Can you retrofit the newer cam tensioners into an "early" TC? Is it just the tensioners or is a new chain required? Can you use a regular set of cams or are different cams used with the newer style roller cam tensioners? Other options?

Sorry, dynawhite, didn't mean to hijack your post...

[Sparks]

I have an 07 Ultra that I just opened up to check my tensioners. It has about 22000 miles on it, the primary tensioner is worn worse then the secondary but since I have it apart I will replace them both.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[JOS]

Okay, answered my own questions...should have just went to the Andrews website, first. 

Guess, I'll just put in the HD tensioners (again) and check them about every 20k. 

[Tattoo]

how does the two set ups compare as far as performance goes?

[flht1550]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE OIL FILM BUT THOSE ALSO HAD BRONZE BUSHINGS, NOY JUST ALMUM.

[Faast Ed]

is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

There are enough of them out there with plenty of miles on them, to let us know they aren't a horrible option.
We'd have heard the complaints by now, I would think. (not like many folks complain about failures here, right? - LOL)

[PoorUB]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE OIL FILM BUT THOSE ALSO HAD BRONZE BUSHINGS, NOY JUST ALMUM.

Pretty much all automotive overhead cam engines do not use a bearing insert in the head for the cam. Just bore the aluminum block is all. Honda, Toyota, you name it, no bearing inserts, no problems. In reality, the shaft rides on a film of oil, not the aluminum housing. I agree with the other post, I think a plain bearing is a superior "bearing" over rollers or balls in this aplication. Less to go wrong, and it will support more weight over a ball or roller.

[motardue]

Are you a gambling man? .... Installed the gears runout was < .002 after my lockup incident runout was > .0055

Unbeatable, but with such a runout Your problems are way far the Gear Drive cause wichever sistem you have in cams is the whole motor that need refurbishing.

[Bakon]

Uesd gears several times without checking runout and lucky for me, no problems. When I started using gears there was no conversion or talk of checking the run out. Talk was all concerning noise and over/under sized gears. Back then the best option was sending the cam plate in and have S&S do the work. Unfortunately not everyone wanted S&S cams, just wanted the gears. I can say I have over 50,000 miles on two different gear sets with no problems.

[PoorUB]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not haveing bearings

As far as I believe there is no concern what ever about the new style cam plate and "no bearings". I feel is is far superior to rollor or ball bearings. After all, every overhead cam car engine out there runs the cam right in the head casting, no bearing inserts at all. The cams ride on a film od pressurized oil. Been that way for decades.

[Bakon]

Yes, I would recommend gears over conversion, but not over replacing the new set up if stock. I also don't think it requires a welded crank. The geared cams did not cause the flywheel to shift, hard braking did. A local dealer who realy knows builds says that hard downshift can cause a flywheel to shift. He say he can shift a new bike with 10 pulls on a dyno done wrong.

I would say to follow the advise of checking run out now that it is a know problem. I would have checked mine had I known. If good I would put gears in a brand new bike with any cam. But I have been happy and had no problems with mine. I might sing differently if I had one.

Thing is there is nothing to wear in the gears. New or old set up still has plastic parts.

[PoorUB]

Yes, I would recommend gears over conversion, but not over replacing the new set up if stock. I also don't think it requires a welded crank. The geared cams did not cause the flywheel to shift, hard braking did. A local dealer who really knows builds says that hard downshift can cause a flywheel to shift. He say he can shift a new bike with 10 pulls on a dyno done wrong.

I would say to follow the advise of checking run out now that it is a know problem. I would have checked mine had I known. If good I would put gears in a brand new bike with any cam. But I have been happy and had no problems with mine. I might sing differently if I had one.

Thing is there is nothing to wear in the gears. New or old set up still has plastic parts.

I would like to see the numbers on failures.
I see a few gear drive problems on differant groups. Some failures, some noise complaints, granted most are probably crankshaft related. On the other hand I have not seen a documented failure of the new style cam chains or tensioners. When you figure HD has built probably 750,000 bikes with the new style chains, versus a relative "handfull" of gear drives, I think the chains are a better deal. That is why my '05 Ultra has the new style chains right now.
Also I think gear drives installs are going to diminish as time goes on. The biggest reason for gear drives was the crappy early tensioners. Now that problem has been addressed on the new bikes there is little reason to convert, unless you own an older bike.

[Jeffd]

I thought gears were a requirement for some high lift applications.

[Bakon]

I dont know if thats tru anymore. Smaller base circles. Woods offers a 400-6 and 408-8 in the new style and they are .650 lift. I thought the newer inner bearings were bigger than 06 and older, but the base circle must be smaller.? Not sure.
The cam is really only .400 lift but .650 valve lift (DP is printing articles lately in AIM about them)

[Bagger]

Hot Bike Article for those interested,

Andrew's Harley Davidson Cam Conversion Kit
Twin Cam Peace Of Mind

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0612_hbkp_andrews_harley_cam_conversion_kit/index.html

[ejk_dyna]

<<I thought gears were a requirement for some high lift applications.>>

...no..only if the particular cam you want to use does not have a new roller chain version yet.  in time they all will be available.

...if i did not already have all the gear drive stuff/fueling oil pump...i would switch over to the roller chain/new oil pump in a heartbeat.

...IMO anyone changing from the new stuff to gears is making a big mistake...and if you have an old tensioner style bike I still would go to the roller stuff versus gears.

[Bakon]

I would go gears on an older bike except for if the cam plate and new oil pump is included for the same price. I like the gears for dead on timing and nothing to wear.  I realize the new set up has less wear, but still has plastic parts in there. As far as the new "bearing" being less parts, I have not heard of any failure to the ball bearings when using gears. There is no weight on them other than valve springs. If fact cam bearing failures has seemed to disappear. Shifted cranks are the new hot topic. Along with run out.

I do run the Feuling pump and plate with my gears and would put them again. As far as converting to roller from the old style, sure only for the new pump, not because I thought it was better than gears.

[harleywood]

From my observation, 40-50k seems to be the average life of the early tensioner pads, although I have seen several go over 70k on the original tensioners. The primary culprit for early tensioner wear has been linked to a rough surface finish on the contact side of the chain grinding into the pad material. I do know that this type of chain and plastic guide/tensioner rails have been used by most auto manufacturers for many years with very few issues. Of course, there is always someone out there with a better mousetrap and many that will promote it.

[cyrus]

Don't gear drives provide more accurate cam timing. It works well on EVOs. I would prefer gears but with all this talk of shifting cranks, now I guess I will have to get mine plugged for piece of mind and then go gear drive. For me a Harley should run roller/ ball bearings or else it is a Honda/Yamaha which may have proven to be of superior  pressure fed sleeve bearings.  My chain saw and weed eater also run roller bearings. But I like it that way anyway.

[Herko]

"New or old set up still has plastic parts".

The old out-of-date adage that plastic is plastic hardly fits with today's material technologies.

The new tensioner pad material is totally different and much stronger than the previous version. It also has a built in lubricity. And, the new pad material does not have the void (air bubble) problem during manufacturing that is found with the ‘99-’06 tensioners.

The new tensioner pad-to-chain tension is controlled via oil pressure at a logical pressure in which remains virtually constant. The old style tensioners apply inconsistent spring pressure that is excessive from the beginning. This uncontrolled overkill tension contributes to the premature tensioner wear commonly found on the ’99 - ’06 models.

The new high quality roller chains are made by Regina, a very prominent chain manufacturer. They're uniquely made via "roll forming" the plates from round wire instead of stamping them from flat stock like on the 99-06 Morse chains. These new chains are surface-smooth from the beginning.

[ejk_dyna]

<<Don't gear drives provide more accurate cam timing. >>

no, not compared to a properly adjusted chain set-up.  it's all marketing...like the s&s demo kit where they have the gear set-up and the chain set-up next to each other and you spin them with your fingers to see how much easier they spin.

if gear drives had all the advantages that people claimed (those people are the one's selling the stuff) over chains..then EVERY racing motor in the world would have gears...not.

do i run gears?  yes but it was because of the bad tensioner system on my 2001 dyna.

[Hawg Holler]

So how long do you think it should take a competent mechanic to do the upgrade. I've already been quoted 8-10 hours. Does that sound right?

It took me about 14 hours but I took my time and double-checked everything because I don't work on bikes for a living and need to really pay attention so I don't screw up anything. A good tech with experience should be able to do it in the time you mention. I could do one much faster now that I know how easy the new roller chain system is to work with.

[Hawg Holler]

"New or old set up still has plastic parts".

The old out-of-date adage that plastic is plastic hardly fits with today's material technologies.

The new tensioner pad material is totally different and much stronger than the previous version. It also has a built in lubricity. And, the new pad material does not have the void (air bubble) problem during manufacturing that is found with the ‘99-’06 tensioners.

The new tensioner pad-to-chain tension is controlled via oil pressure at a logical pressure in which remains virtually constant. The old style tensioners apply inconsistent spring pressure that is excessive from the beginning. This uncontrolled overkill tension contributes to the premature tensioner wear commonly found on the ’99 - ’06 models.

The new high quality roller chains are made by Regina, a very prominent chain manufacturer. They're uniquely made via "roll forming" the plates from round wire instead of stamping them from flat stock like on the 99-06 Morse chains. These new chains are surface-smooth from the beginning.

Good point on the 'plastics' used in the shoes. This isn't he same stuff they make make model cars out of.

I noticed that the hydraulic tensioner shoes have "Made in Germany" stamped on the bag. Any idea which company makes them? I've heard it's the supplier for Porche, BMW and Mercedes but haven't been able to confirm.

[ViennaHog]

I disassembled 2 cam chests of the current design at mileages around 15,000. There was very little wear on the tensioners, the grooves were about 0.5 to 1mm deep ( 1/48 - 1/24 ") with no visible holes or air bubbles. The new design appears to be much more solid than the previous version. I have not seen a gear conversion from the 07- chain system and I do not expect to see one soon. Radicals cam that require gears to avoid lobe contact is a different story.
I think Harley has a winner here.

[Don D]

Herko
What is your feeling about raising the oil pressure via a Latus spring?

[Herko]

"I noticed that the hydraulic tensioner shoes have "Made in Germany" stamped on the bag. Any idea which company makes them?"

Not sure.
However, Regina which is based in Italy and the U.S., was consulted & involved in the design process of the new system.

[Herko]

Herko
What is your feeling about raising the oil pressure via a Latus spring?

When asked, I advise staying with the stock spring. Like many, I've witnessed good pressures at hot cruise and idle with the stock spring.
Though some have in fact increased the spring pressure with the new pump.

[WVULTRA]

Got the tensioners out of the '07 Ultra, and each tensioner pad has molded markings on each side just below the chain wear area.  One side has INA and the other has <PA46>.

[Arrowsmit]

FWIW, I had my ('02 conversion) tensioners out after 10K mi & I could see where the chains rode on em but couldn't even catch a thumbnail on the marks. JMHO but I really believe HD has hit a home run w/this set-up.

VicW..

[nc-renegade]

I've installed both and have run both. Roller chain set up is the way to go for a mild build. Breeze to install, quiet, and dependable.
However, if I were building a big inch, super high lift cam motor, I'd go gears, and welded crank of course.

Sonny

My crank is .0008", plugged and welded.  My gear drive backlash is set properly but always had noise, especially when hot.  I am in the process of going to 107" with a .660" lift and I am converting to the new style tensioners.  I just did a friends with .525 and it is whisper quiet.

I would not consider gears unless I was going larger than .670" and that is only due to them hitting each other otherwise.

Edit:  One other item, the new system is as accurate as gears, whereas the older "silent chain" caused slop in the cam timing...up to 4 degrees.

[nc-renegade]

Cost is minimal, less than 200 for parts. Both the other options are quite a bit more coin.

I think one thing to consider is if you plan to change cams.  If that was my goal, I would do the conversion.  Much easier for DIY and you gain the higher flowing oil pump.  Going through one of the discount internet stores, it is not that much.

[Ultrashovel]

What's wrong with staying with the old set-up. Change out every 40-50 tho miles and your good to go. I changed out 2 sets w/45,000 miles and neither were in bad shape.  With the chain now self polished they should be good until 100,000. Cost is minimal, less than 200 for parts. Both the other options are quite a bit more coin.

I agree. I like stock cams with my sidecar. It has the low bottom end torque that I need. The Hyrdaulic modification looks the best to me but you have to change cams to do it. I guess you can order stock timing but short of that, I'll just check mine every now and then and put in new parts as needed. I've got three sets of new cams and chains that people basically gave me when they went to gear drives so all I would need is gaskets, bearings and tensioners. I have all of the JIMS tools to do bearing work.

[IBARider]

Tensioner wear is hit or miss, I haven't been able to find a trend.

I've had the same observations.

I was led to believe there was a trend and that was... high mileage guys tend to last longer, whereas bar hoppers wore quicker.  Something to do with residual lube on them at start ups.

[IBARider]

Oh forgot to add.  I'm a high miler.  I changed those tensioners every 60,000 miles and there was 50% left left on them at that mileage....

[Herko]

"...I guess you can order stock timing..."

The Andrews 12N grind is virtually stock cam specs. No retuning needed.

[Ultrashovel]

"...I guess you can order stock timing..."

The Andrews 12N grind is virtually stock cam specs. No retuning needed.

Yes, that would be my choice. If and when I make a change, I'll just get the parts from the fellow who packages them here (forgot his mane) and install the later hydraulic tensioner kit. With the 12N's I can still pull my sidecar.

My engine hardly vibrates at all. I think the crank is still pretty good. I'll check it the next time I look at the tensioners.

[Jeffd]

The 21's actually have better low end than the stock cams.

[Hawg Holler]

The 21's actually have better low end than the stock cams.

I've heard some people say the Andrews 21s are the cams that Harley would use if it weren't for the EPA. If you're pulling a sidecar, the 21s are going to give you a lot better performance than stock due to their low end torque improvements. If you're going to change out cams anyway, I'd recommend them. I've had them in my Road King for 26,000 miles and I've been very satisfied, esp. when I'm running two-up with luggage. The power they develop for pulling hills is really impressive.

[nc-renegade]

I thought gears were a requirement for some high lift applications.

I just put in TR-662 cams with .660" lift.  I converted from gears to the new style tensioners/camplate/oil pump setup.  Looking at these cams, I don't think cam makers can go any higher lift without going to gear drive....but .660" is a lot!