Andrews tensioner conversion or gear drive

[JOS]

Okay, answered my own questions...should have just went to the Andrews website, first. 

Guess, I'll just put in the HD tensioners (again) and check them about every 20k. 

[Tattoo]

how does the two set ups compare as far as performance goes?

[flht1550]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE OIL FILM BUT THOSE ALSO HAD BRONZE BUSHINGS, NOY JUST ALMUM.

[Faast Ed]

is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

There are enough of them out there with plenty of miles on them, to let us know they aren't a horrible option.
We'd have heard the complaints by now, I would think. (not like many folks complain about failures here, right? - LOL)

[PoorUB]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not having bearings

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE OIL FILM BUT THOSE ALSO HAD BRONZE BUSHINGS, NOY JUST ALMUM.

Pretty much all automotive overhead cam engines do not use a bearing insert in the head for the cam. Just bore the aluminum block is all. Honda, Toyota, you name it, no bearing inserts, no problems. In reality, the shaft rides on a film of oil, not the aluminum housing. I agree with the other post, I think a plain bearing is a superior "bearing" over rollers or balls in this aplication. Less to go wrong, and it will support more weight over a ball or roller.

[motardue]

Are you a gambling man? .... Installed the gears runout was < .002 after my lockup incident runout was > .0055

Unbeatable, but with such a runout Your problems are way far the Gear Drive cause wichever sistem you have in cams is the whole motor that need refurbishing.

[Bakon]

Uesd gears several times without checking runout and lucky for me, no problems. When I started using gears there was no conversion or talk of checking the run out. Talk was all concerning noise and over/under sized gears. Back then the best option was sending the cam plate in and have S&S do the work. Unfortunately not everyone wanted S&S cams, just wanted the gears. I can say I have over 50,000 miles on two different gear sets with no problems.

[PoorUB]

On the conversion option without the outer bearings is there cause to think that the cam plate holes might ware out of round by not haveing bearings

As far as I believe there is no concern what ever about the new style cam plate and "no bearings". I feel is is far superior to rollor or ball bearings. After all, every overhead cam car engine out there runs the cam right in the head casting, no bearing inserts at all. The cams ride on a film od pressurized oil. Been that way for decades.

[Bakon]

Yes, I would recommend gears over conversion, but not over replacing the new set up if stock. I also don't think it requires a welded crank. The geared cams did not cause the flywheel to shift, hard braking did. A local dealer who realy knows builds says that hard downshift can cause a flywheel to shift. He say he can shift a new bike with 10 pulls on a dyno done wrong.

I would say to follow the advise of checking run out now that it is a know problem. I would have checked mine had I known. If good I would put gears in a brand new bike with any cam. But I have been happy and had no problems with mine. I might sing differently if I had one.

Thing is there is nothing to wear in the gears. New or old set up still has plastic parts.

[PoorUB]

Yes, I would recommend gears over conversion, but not over replacing the new set up if stock. I also don't think it requires a welded crank. The geared cams did not cause the flywheel to shift, hard braking did. A local dealer who really knows builds says that hard downshift can cause a flywheel to shift. He say he can shift a new bike with 10 pulls on a dyno done wrong.

I would say to follow the advise of checking run out now that it is a know problem. I would have checked mine had I known. If good I would put gears in a brand new bike with any cam. But I have been happy and had no problems with mine. I might sing differently if I had one.

Thing is there is nothing to wear in the gears. New or old set up still has plastic parts.

I would like to see the numbers on failures.
I see a few gear drive problems on differant groups. Some failures, some noise complaints, granted most are probably crankshaft related. On the other hand I have not seen a documented failure of the new style cam chains or tensioners. When you figure HD has built probably 750,000 bikes with the new style chains, versus a relative "handfull" of gear drives, I think the chains are a better deal. That is why my '05 Ultra has the new style chains right now.
Also I think gear drives installs are going to diminish as time goes on. The biggest reason for gear drives was the crappy early tensioners. Now that problem has been addressed on the new bikes there is little reason to convert, unless you own an older bike.

[Jeffd]

I thought gears were a requirement for some high lift applications.

[Bakon]

I dont know if thats tru anymore. Smaller base circles. Woods offers a 400-6 and 408-8 in the new style and they are .650 lift. I thought the newer inner bearings were bigger than 06 and older, but the base circle must be smaller.? Not sure.
The cam is really only .400 lift but .650 valve lift (DP is printing articles lately in AIM about them)

[Bagger]

Hot Bike Article for those interested,

Andrew's Harley Davidson Cam Conversion Kit
Twin Cam Peace Of Mind

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0612_hbkp_andrews_harley_cam_conversion_kit/index.html

[ejk_dyna]

<<I thought gears were a requirement for some high lift applications.>>

...no..only if the particular cam you want to use does not have a new roller chain version yet.  in time they all will be available.

...if i did not already have all the gear drive stuff/fueling oil pump...i would switch over to the roller chain/new oil pump in a heartbeat.

...IMO anyone changing from the new stuff to gears is making a big mistake...and if you have an old tensioner style bike I still would go to the roller stuff versus gears.

[Bakon]

I would go gears on an older bike except for if the cam plate and new oil pump is included for the same price. I like the gears for dead on timing and nothing to wear.  I realize the new set up has less wear, but still has plastic parts in there. As far as the new "bearing" being less parts, I have not heard of any failure to the ball bearings when using gears. There is no weight on them other than valve springs. If fact cam bearing failures has seemed to disappear. Shifted cranks are the new hot topic. Along with run out.

I do run the Feuling pump and plate with my gears and would put them again. As far as converting to roller from the old style, sure only for the new pump, not because I thought it was better than gears.

[harleywood]

From my observation, 40-50k seems to be the average life of the early tensioner pads, although I have seen several go over 70k on the original tensioners. The primary culprit for early tensioner wear has been linked to a rough surface finish on the contact side of the chain grinding into the pad material. I do know that this type of chain and plastic guide/tensioner rails have been used by most auto manufacturers for many years with very few issues. Of course, there is always someone out there with a better mousetrap and many that will promote it.

[cyrus]

Don't gear drives provide more accurate cam timing. It works well on EVOs. I would prefer gears but with all this talk of shifting cranks, now I guess I will have to get mine plugged for piece of mind and then go gear drive. For me a Harley should run roller/ ball bearings or else it is a Honda/Yamaha which may have proven to be of superior  pressure fed sleeve bearings.  My chain saw and weed eater also run roller bearings. But I like it that way anyway.

[Herko]

"New or old set up still has plastic parts".

The old out-of-date adage that plastic is plastic hardly fits with today's material technologies.

The new tensioner pad material is totally different and much stronger than the previous version. It also has a built in lubricity. And, the new pad material does not have the void (air bubble) problem during manufacturing that is found with the ‘99-’06 tensioners.

The new tensioner pad-to-chain tension is controlled via oil pressure at a logical pressure in which remains virtually constant. The old style tensioners apply inconsistent spring pressure that is excessive from the beginning. This uncontrolled overkill tension contributes to the premature tensioner wear commonly found on the ’99 - ’06 models.

The new high quality roller chains are made by Regina, a very prominent chain manufacturer. They're uniquely made via "roll forming" the plates from round wire instead of stamping them from flat stock like on the 99-06 Morse chains. These new chains are surface-smooth from the beginning.

[ejk_dyna]

<<Don't gear drives provide more accurate cam timing. >>

no, not compared to a properly adjusted chain set-up.  it's all marketing...like the s&s demo kit where they have the gear set-up and the chain set-up next to each other and you spin them with your fingers to see how much easier they spin.

if gear drives had all the advantages that people claimed (those people are the one's selling the stuff) over chains..then EVERY racing motor in the world would have gears...not.

do i run gears?  yes but it was because of the bad tensioner system on my 2001 dyna.

[Hawg Holler]

So how long do you think it should take a competent mechanic to do the upgrade. I've already been quoted 8-10 hours. Does that sound right?

It took me about 14 hours but I took my time and double-checked everything because I don't work on bikes for a living and need to really pay attention so I don't screw up anything. A good tech with experience should be able to do it in the time you mention. I could do one much faster now that I know how easy the new roller chain system is to work with.

[Hawg Holler]

"New or old set up still has plastic parts".

The old out-of-date adage that plastic is plastic hardly fits with today's material technologies.

The new tensioner pad material is totally different and much stronger than the previous version. It also has a built in lubricity. And, the new pad material does not have the void (air bubble) problem during manufacturing that is found with the ‘99-’06 tensioners.

The new tensioner pad-to-chain tension is controlled via oil pressure at a logical pressure in which remains virtually constant. The old style tensioners apply inconsistent spring pressure that is excessive from the beginning. This uncontrolled overkill tension contributes to the premature tensioner wear commonly found on the ’99 - ’06 models.

The new high quality roller chains are made by Regina, a very prominent chain manufacturer. They're uniquely made via "roll forming" the plates from round wire instead of stamping them from flat stock like on the 99-06 Morse chains. These new chains are surface-smooth from the beginning.

Good point on the 'plastics' used in the shoes. This isn't he same stuff they make make model cars out of.

I noticed that the hydraulic tensioner shoes have "Made in Germany" stamped on the bag. Any idea which company makes them? I've heard it's the supplier for Porche, BMW and Mercedes but haven't been able to confirm.

[ViennaHog]

I disassembled 2 cam chests of the current design at mileages around 15,000. There was very little wear on the tensioners, the grooves were about 0.5 to 1mm deep ( 1/48 - 1/24 ") with no visible holes or air bubbles. The new design appears to be much more solid than the previous version. I have not seen a gear conversion from the 07- chain system and I do not expect to see one soon. Radicals cam that require gears to avoid lobe contact is a different story.
I think Harley has a winner here.

[Don D]

Herko
What is your feeling about raising the oil pressure via a Latus spring?

[Herko]

"I noticed that the hydraulic tensioner shoes have "Made in Germany" stamped on the bag. Any idea which company makes them?"

Not sure.
However, Regina which is based in Italy and the U.S., was consulted & involved in the design process of the new system.

[Herko]

Herko
What is your feeling about raising the oil pressure via a Latus spring?

When asked, I advise staying with the stock spring. Like many, I've witnessed good pressures at hot cruise and idle with the stock spring.
Though some have in fact increased the spring pressure with the new pump.