14+ compensator spring preload check

[rbabos]

if you look at the new directions for the Se comp it now looks like it comes with two of those washers and they want you to use those right off the bat..
http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J05674.PDF

I believe that sheet is for the pre A version so the A doesn't have shims. One should measure then add or not.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

if you look at the new directions for the Se comp it now looks like it comes with two of those washers and they want you to use those right off the bat..
http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J05674.PDF

Look at M-1352 in the HD service section..HD clarified when they were supposed to be used after the J05674.. Then flip-flopped back.. Now asking for a measurement first.. 

[MarcV125]

if you look at the new directions for the Se comp it now looks like it comes with two of those washers and they want you to use those right off the bat..
http://www.harley-davidson.com/app-content/service/isheets/-J05674.PDF

Look at M-1352 in the HD service section..HD clarified when they were supposed to be used after the J05674.. Then flip-flopped back.. Now asking for a measurement first..

gotcha good catch guys ..
marc

[Admiral Akbar]

Any got a primary open or a rotor around.. Mine has been knocking and the stackup shows about 0.265 to 0.270.. My rotor looks to have the spring seat worn so I expect spring seat to number is up some... I'm getting about 0.167..

[MarcV125]

Any got a primary open or a rotor around.. Mine has been knocking and the stackup shows about 0.265 to 0.270.. My rotor looks to have the spring seat worn so I expect spring seat to number is up some... I'm getting about 0.167..

well i did tonight max as i had to take my Baker comp out, while i took it out i measured my spring stackup for my SE and i was at .261 so i added two shims to take me to the high side of the Rec. , but sorry didnt see your post in time..
marc

[rageglide]

Bringing this thread back up.  I decided to measure my 14+ comp which I thought was a bit noisy out of the box.  Measuring is tough (IMO) because without a level on the caliper you can easily get the angle off and see drastically huge differences in measurements.  Anyway, I measured about .296-.305 (measured two places).

Looking at M-1352... reference to the CVO models using a sliding cam with a groove.  Looked at my comp and see that it's the same grooved cam.  I presume this was a flying change.

Kit was shipped to me in June 2014
[attach=0]

[masstch]

Not hto ijack this thread but if there is info out there with a spring stack height number for the SEcomp (2010+) please point me to it. Mine measures 1.275

[rbabos]

Not hto ijack this thread but if there is info out there with a spring stack height number for the SEcomp (2010+) please point me to it. Mine measures 1.275

All SE comps should be about the same from the first 08 version. The measurement you want is the stack as in the bulletin. This takes care of any other component variances. .286-.326. Preferably the high number for a new comp as it will wear slightly to seat all 3 cam/spoke contacts from a new state as well as any disc edge wear. Even though there is some edge wear the pressure should result the same in operation, as long as the mentioned preload distance is retained. Max pressure should not change much over time, just the starting point pressure from wear points.
Ron

[gabbyduffy]

Bringing this thread back up.  I decided to measure my 14+ comp which I thought was a bit noisy out of the box.  Measuring is tough (IMO) because without a level on the caliper you can easily get the angle off and see drastically huge differences in measurements.  Anyway, I measured about .296-.305 (measured two places).

Looking at M-1352... reference to the CVO models using a sliding cam with a groove.  Looked at my comp and see that it's the same grooved cam.  I presume this was a flying change.

Kit was shipped to me in June 2014
[attach=0]

If your taking measurements from the photo you posted thats the wrong way to measure it. The comp. needs to be measured just like it would be sitting in the primary, turn it up side down on a flat surface and measure it that way.

[masstch]

Late to this discussion of course and I don't have my comp apart right now but reading this has me confused a bit.
I didn't know to measure it this particular way, or even that there was a proscribed method and spec floating around. My 2010 CVO has the original SE comp which shows significant spoke wear. The silly bit is that the comp makes NO noise while riding. Only occasionally will it even clunk when I kill it.
Mine does not have the .031 shims and I didn't know to take the measurement by the "book method" when I was in there. I did measure and record the height of the full spring pack (as shown in Fig. 5 of the SE instructions). The number was 1.275". I'm curious if anyone knows the comparable measurement for their (new or used) spring pack, just for comparison of the springs only. I'm fully aware of the importance of the *installed* height in determining pre-load. I'd like to know, though, how much deviation exists within the spring packs in the general population of them.

[rageglide]

If your taking measurements from the photo you posted thats the wrong way to measure it. The comp. needs to be measured just like it would be sitting in the primary, turn it up side down on a flat surface and measure it that way.

Ha!   No I measured just like Joe shows in his picture.   I flipped the part so I could take a clear picture of the groove.

When you read the M-1352 bulletin it discusses the CVO having the groove and that it does not need shims.  I presume the 14+ kits were shipping the same cam as the 2014 non-CVOs.

[rageglide]

Late to this discussion of course and I don't have my comp apart right now but reading this has me confused a bit.
I didn't know to measure it thus particular way, or even that there was a proscribed method and spec floating around. My 2010 CVO has the original SE comp which shows significant spoke wear. The silly bit is that the comp makes NO noise while riding. Only occasionally will it even clunk when I kill it.
Mine does not have the .031 shims and I didn't know to take the measurement by the "book method" when I was in there. I did measure and record the height of the full spring pack (as shown in Fig. 5 of the SE instructions). The number was 1.275". I'm curious if anyone knows the comparable measurement for their (new or used) spring pack, just for comparison of the springs only. I'm fully aware of the importance of the *installed* height in determining pre-load. I'd like to know, though, how much deviation exists within the spring packs in the general population of them.

You've got the original SE Compensator, not the newer version. So I expect things will be different.   But I will measure the spring pack on my 14+ comp this evening.

[rbabos]

If your taking measurements from the photo you posted thats the wrong way to measure it. The comp. needs to be measured just like it would be sitting in the primary, turn it up side down on a flat surface and measure it that way.

Ha!   No I measured just like Joe shows in his picture.   I flipped the part so I could take a clear picture of the groove.

When you read the M-1352 bulletin it discusses the CVO having the groove and that it does not need shims.  I presume the 14+ kits were shipping the same cam as the 2014 non-CVOs.

The groove is an identifier to the ones not needing shims, supposedly. Don't place faith in that as there is too much variances in parts depending on who supplied and when. QC is not high on the list with these things. Measure,  then you know and will have correct preload. That applies to all SE Comps, both new and ones that have some miles on them. CVO's use the same comp as the rest.
Ron

[rageglide]

If your taking measurements from the photo you posted thats the wrong way to measure it. The comp. needs to be measured just like it would be sitting in the primary, turn it up side down on a flat surface and measure it that way.

Ha!   No I measured just like Joe shows in his picture.   I flipped the part so I could take a clear picture of the groove.

When you read the M-1352 bulletin it discusses the CVO having the groove and that it does not need shims.  I presume the 14+ kits were shipping the same cam as the 2014 non-CVOs.

The groove is an identifier to the ones not needing shims, supposedly. Don't place faith in that as there is too much variances in parts depending on who supplied and when. QC is not high on the list with these things. Measure,  then you know and will have correct preload. That applies to all SE Comps, both new and ones that have some miles on them. CVO's use the same comp as the rest.
Ron

No argument there... but there ARE two different parts out in the field... that's all I'm saying.  The CVOs used a different part than the rest of the bikes if the Bulletin is to be believed. 

From M-1352:

"Overview
See Figure1.  Early production 2014 non-CVO vehicles with a 96 or 103 engine have two 0.031 in shims (1) installed between the large compensator spring (3) and rotor shell (2).

During 2014 model production, a running change will occur where material will be added to the slider cam, eliminating the need for the shims.  The revised slider cam will be identified by having a groove (11) around the circumference on the end toward the rotor shell.  When assembling a compensator assembly, install shims only on vehicles without the identifying groove.

2014 CVO models are equipped with a new slider cam.  These models do not require shims.  This slider cam can be identified by having a groove (11) around the circumference on the end toward the rotor shell."

CVO or not, the SE kits are likely to also have a flying change because they were available at the same time as the 2014 production.   Just trying to help make it clear to check...

[rbabos]

If your taking measurements from the photo you posted thats the wrong way to measure it. The comp. needs to be measured just like it would be sitting in the primary, turn it up side down on a flat surface and measure it that way.

Ha!   No I measured just like Joe shows in his picture.   I flipped the part so I could take a clear picture of the groove.

When you read the M-1352 bulletin it discusses the CVO having the groove and that it does not need shims.  I presume the 14+ kits were shipping the same cam as the 2014 non-CVOs.

The groove is an identifier to the ones not needing shims, supposedly. Don't place faith in that as there is too much variances in parts depending on who supplied and when. QC is not high on the list with these things. Measure,  then you know and will have correct preload. That applies to all SE Comps, both new and ones that have some miles on them. CVO's use the same comp as the rest.
Ron

No argument there... but there ARE two different parts out in the field... that's all I'm saying.  The CVOs used a different part than the rest of the bikes if the Bulletin is to be believed. 

From M-1352:

"Overview
See Figure1.  Early production 2014 non-CVO vehicles with a 96 or 103 engine have two 0.031 in shims (1) installed between the large compensator spring (3) and rotor shell (2).

During 2014 model production, a running change will occur where material will be added to the slider cam, eliminating the need for the shims.  The revised slider cam will be identified by having a groove (11) around the circumference on the end toward the rotor shell.  When assembling a compensator assembly, install shims only on vehicles without the identifying groove.

2014 CVO models are equipped with a new slider cam.  These models do not require shims.  This slider cam can be identified by having a groove (11) around the circumference on the end toward the rotor shell."

CVO or not, the SE kits are likely to also have a flying change because they were available at the same time as the 2014 production.   Just trying to help make it clear to check...

Just go with the preload check and it will tell you if shims or more of them are needed or not, even if they are present or not as it sits. Don't assume even if it came with shims it's correct. It was built by HD, remember?
Ron

[rageglide]

Just go with the preload check and it will tell you if shims or more of them are needed or not, even if they are present or not as it sits. Don't assume even if it came with shims it's correct. It was built by HD, remember?
Ron

[OldFLTRider]

My new SE compensator stack measured .305 and was very noisy when at operating temp in my 2012 103 with 115 hp/tq.  I added the extra small spring out of my original comp and it's greatly improved.  Less felt vibration now also. 

I probably should have used the shims but the closest dealer is 45 miles away and would no doubt have to order them.  I couldn't stand the racket and had to get it fixed before Bikes Blues and BBQ.

[rageglide]

Late to this discussion of course and I don't have my comp apart right now but reading this has me confused a bit.
I didn't know to measure it thus particular way, or even that there was a proscribed method and spec floating around. My 2010 CVO has the original SE comp which shows significant spoke wear. The silly bit is that the comp makes NO noise while riding. Only occasionally will it even clunk when I kill it.
Mine does not have the .031 shims and I didn't know to take the measurement by the "book method" when I was in there. I did measure and record the height of the full spring pack (as shown in Fig. 5 of the SE instructions). The number was 1.275". I'm curious if anyone knows the comparable measurement for their (new or used) spring pack, just for comparison of the springs only. I'm fully aware of the importance of the *installed* height in determining pre-load. I'd like to know, though, how much deviation exists within the spring packs in the general population of them.

You've got the original SE Compensator, not the newer version. So I expect things will be different.   But I will measure the spring pack on my 14+ comp this evening.

Masstch,  Measured the 14+ spring pack.   1.278" and 1.282" (measured in two places)

OldFLTRider I measured the small spring and it's .065"  so that's a bit more than 2 of the .031" shims.  Frankly I like the idea of two springs vs the shims, shims are a pain in the azz because they will fall behind the spacer.  I stupidly tossed my original compensator or I'd consider using two small springs on my bike.

[masstch]

Thanks for that. I'm going to infer from that that my spring pack, despite 25k and 5 (oops, 6) years   is not significantly out of shape.

I am curious about those that do make racket and how they measure in comparison.

[rageglide]

Sure np from one masshole to another.  For what it's worth my new 14+ was noisy.  Wish I had not tossed my 2012 original... it wasn't as noisy.

[rbabos]

Sure np from one masshole to another.  For what it's worth my new 14+ was noisy.  Wish I had not tossed my 2012 original... it wasn't as noisy.

The PEAK washer in place of the wafer bearing will address that or at least reduce it.
Ron

[rageglide]

Sure np from one masshole to another.  For what it's worth my new 14+ was noisy.  Wish I had not tossed my 2012 original... it wasn't as noisy.

The PEAK washer in place of the wafer bearing will address that or at least reduce it.
Ron

It has the PEAK washer already.  The noise I was getting was the shut down clunk-clunk. 

[rbabos]

Sure np from one masshole to another.  For what it's worth my new 14+ was noisy.  Wish I had not tossed my 2012 original... it wasn't as noisy.

The PEAK washer in place of the wafer bearing will address that or at least reduce it.
Ron

It has the PEAK washer already.  The noise I was getting was the shut down clunk-clunk.

I've always felt the odd clunk on a shutdown as being normal. Compression rebound, with clutch basket mass adding resistance. The cam rotates to decel then back to normal direction load contact. Wanna hear clunk, try ATF with no oiler. It's like jamming a crowbar into the chain on each shutdown.
As long as there is no bang on startup , starter grind from the starter clutch losing engagement from weak comp springs or continuous noise in normal operation it's all good.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

What about more than one clunk?   I don't hear anymore clunking anymore unless it's shut down in 1st gear rolling.

[rbabos]

What about more than one clunk?   I don't hear anymore clunking anymore unless it's shut down in 1st gear rolling.

So, you have the stand down, bars slightly to the right and you are off the bike before it stops rolling too? 
Ron