Active Exhaust Valving

[FLTRI]

VRods can run into the issues around 74.5% DC.

I've tuned a few over the years and haven't seen issues at 80%. That said these are not Destroyer race bikes. They are relatively stock bikes with various exhausts. Some Most don't work very well and all. Not enough volume. Rebaffled stock 2into1into2 works very well.
Bob

Pretty sure these bikes could benifit from an Exup valve also. Would make life a lot easier to have good sampling in the low end for nice stable closed loop. That seems to go to chit as soon as you slip on some better flowing mufflers.
Ron

I remember when Vrods first came out the MOCO challenged the aftermarket to build a better performing exhaust than their original 2into1into2.
It took a company (v-mod) r&ring the baffle in the stock mufflers to beat the stock performance.
Non of the aftermarket did much more than make noise.
Bob

[rbabos]

VRods can run into the issues around 74.5% DC.

I've tuned a few over the years and haven't seen issues at 80%. That said these are not Destroyer race bikes. They are relatively stock bikes with various exhausts. Some Most don't work very well and all. Not enough volume. Rebaffled stock 2into1into2 works very well.
Bob

Pretty sure these bikes could benifit from an Exup valve also. Would make life a lot easier to have good sampling in the low end for nice stable closed loop. That seems to go to chit as soon as you slip on some better flowing mufflers.
Ron

I remember when Vrods first came out the MOCO challenged the aftermarket to build a better performing exhaust than their original 2into1into2.
It took a company (v-mod) r&ring the baffle in the stock mufflers to beat the stock performance.
Non of the aftermarket did much more than make noise.
Bob

That's why I kept the system but went fatshots. These bikes become stupid loud with just about every other exhaust out there. I test rode one with the V&H 2-1. I found it intolerable for long distances with that thing barking under your right ear. Burns the leg too, not to mention it drags on hard right turns. I wasn't impressed but the young crowd likes them. Thing is, even with a small change like taking the stockers off and going fatshots, the low end sampling (low kpa areas) goes for a chit. This is where and xup valve could reclaim that possibly? Not likey will happen but just my thoughts on it.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

[rbabos]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

Most would look at it as restrictive and heave it over the fence. Then they discover tuning low end issues and sneak over the fence at night to get it back.  I tend to agree, it would have benifits.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

Most would look at it as restrictive and heave it over the fence. Then they discover tuning low end issues and sneak over the fence at night to get it back.  I tend to agree, it would have benifits.
Ron

Oh god Ron! I've got tears running down my face from laughing!
It would be restrictive for low rpm power then, when the engine needs more exhaust volume, the valve opens up allowing another muffler's worth of volume.

Bob

[1FSTRK]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

Most would look at it as restrictive and heave it over the fence. Then they discover tuning low end issues and sneak over the fence at night to get it back.  I tend to agree, it would have benifits.
Ron

Oh god Ron! I've got tears running down my face from laughing!
It would be restrictive for low rpm power then, when the engine needs more exhaust volume, the valve opens up allowing another muffler's worth of volume.

Bob

We have had this talk many times locally. It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

The first dyno operator that installed a cone or bolt in a drag pipe instead of telling the customer "they all do that and you are stupid to run them" made a million dollars installing them.

[Don D]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

Detailed instructions was given to Ron with the advice of what could be done to help.  It would take 5-7 minutes on his part to pull a file and email it.  A lot more work on the other side to figure things out.  This could of told him exactly how the BLM was laid out in his calibration and what tables actually changed things in the calibrations and which ones did nothing.  I have seen many suggestion from tuners and myself on what to do to test sampling in the lower areas.  I have personally talked to other tuners that have advised Ron the same off the forum.  So, you can lead a horse to water.....

I don't know who is claiming to be an expert.  I see it more as:  I have ran into that same problem A lot over the past 6-7 years of tuning and this is what I did to correct and improve the running in that area.  You know, knowledge based on actual experience. 

[rbabos]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

Detailed instructions was given to Ron with the advice of what could be done to help.  It would take 5-7 minutes on his part to pull a file and email it.  A lot more work on the other side to figure things out.  This could of told him exactly how the BLM was laid out in his calibration and what tables actually changed things in the calibrations and which ones did nothing.  I have seen many suggestion from tuners and myself on what to do to test sampling in the lower areas.  I have personally talked to other tuners that have advised Ron the same off the forum.  So, you can lead a horse to water.....

I don't know who is claiming to be an expert.  I see it more as:  I have ran into that same problem A lot over the past 6-7 years of tuning and this is what I did to correct and improve the running in that area.  You know, knowledge based on actual experience.

This would be classified as baiting. Not sucking me in this time.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

Frankly Ron,
I'm truly surprised non of the tuner companies haven't found a performance use for the HDI exhaust valve.
I'm assume the coding and calibration tables can be modified to use for low rpm performance then open up for higher rpm running?
I think it would be a real help with big builds w/high overlap cam profiles.
Bob

Most would look at it as restrictive and heave it over the fence. Then they discover tuning low end issues and sneak over the fence at night to get it back.  I tend to agree, it would have benifits.
Ron

Oh god Ron! I've got tears running down my face from laughing!
It would be restrictive for low rpm power then, when the engine needs more exhaust volume, the valve opens up allowing another muffler's worth of volume.

Bob

We have had this talk many times locally. It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

The first dyno operator that installed a cone or bolt in a drag pipe instead of telling the customer "they all do that and you are stupid to run them" made a million dollars installing them.

Just to clarify my post was in reference to the part of FLTRI's post on performance high lighted in red and has nothing to do with any of Ron's bikes or tuning experiences.
Any total or partial quotes and/or reply should be in reference to the subject of FLRTI's post on accessing the code to tune an active exhaust valve in the pipe for performance purposes, other bike manufactures have been doing it for years.

[joe_lyons]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

[hrdtail78]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

Detailed instructions was given to Ron with the advice of what could be done to help.  It would take 5-7 minutes on his part to pull a file and email it.  A lot more work on the other side to figure things out.  This could of told him exactly how the BLM was laid out in his calibration and what tables actually changed things in the calibrations and which ones did nothing.  I have seen many suggestion from tuners and myself on what to do to test sampling in the lower areas.  I have personally talked to other tuners that have advised Ron the same off the forum.  So, you can lead a horse to water.....

I don't know who is claiming to be an expert.  I see it more as:  I have ran into that same problem A lot over the past 6-7 years of tuning and this is what I did to correct and improve the running in that area.  You know, knowledge based on actual experience.

This would be classified as baiting. Not sucking me in this time.
Ron

No baiting at all.  Offer left the table some time ago.  Just stating another side of it. 

[hrdtail78]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Thanks for pointing that out.  I knew about Mastertune but not vision.  I wonder how that would work with the Akropovic stuff?

[1FSTRK]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

I wonder if that could be changed by the aftermarket tuner world or if it has to stay that way.

[rbabos]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Thanks for pointing that out.  I knew about Mastertune but not vision.  I wonder how that would work with the Akropovic stuff?

Don't you need an active exhaust first to make use of the tables? AKRO has no valve.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

They sell a kit

[hrdtail78]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Thanks for pointing that out.  I knew about Mastertune but not vision.  I wonder how that would work with the Akropovic stuff?

Don't you need an active exhaust first to make use of the tables? AKRO has no valve.
Ron

Yes they do.  It's on the manufactures web site and in the drag specialties catalog.  It was also on display at the last dealer show I went to.  What are you basing your statement on?

[rbabos]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Thanks for pointing that out.  I knew about Mastertune but not vision.  I wonder how that would work with the Akropovic stuff?

Don't you need an active exhaust first to make use of the tables? AKRO has no valve.
Ron

Yes they do.  It's on the manufactures web site and in the drag specialties catalog.  It was also on display at the last dealer show I went to.  What are you basing your statement on?

V rod Akro 2-1 pipe. It is recently discontinued but plenty of them running around.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=247525

[Jamie Long]

The valves Akrapovic offers are for the slip on mufflers they offer for various models, they are not available for their 2/1 systems.

[joe_lyons]

The mufflers are shorter aren't they?

[Jamie Long]

The mufflers are shorter aren't they?

The Akra slip on mufflers have two sections, one is the muffler; the other is an inlet extension tube which is covered by a heat shield. If you use the optional valve it replaces the extension tube section of the muffler.   

[hrdtail78]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Thanks for pointing that out.  I knew about Mastertune but not vision.  I wonder how that would work with the Akropovic stuff?

Don't you need an active exhaust first to make use of the tables? AKRO has no valve.
Ron

Yes they do.  It's on the manufactures web site and in the drag specialties catalog.  It was also on display at the last dealer show I went to.  What are you basing your statement on?

V rod Akro 2-1 pipe. It is recently discontinued but plenty of them running around.
Ron

You have made it pretty clear that I have no info you are interested in.  So, when I talk about what is out there with a valve that might work with tuning devices.  I don't have the Vrod, you or even a 2-1 in mind.

The valves Akrapovic offers are for the slip on mufflers they offer for various models, they are not available for their 2/1 systems.

No where in my statements did I mention a 2-1 system, but let's get out of the box a little bit and remember how easy SS is to weld.  The topic was brought up on the subject of dynamic exhaust.  I didn't think that related to specific exhaust or model, but as a general statement.   I was just trying to talk about it in  general sense also.

[hrdtail78]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOM0yhEEQcg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLAwAwb4fTM

[1FSTRK]

Does the ecm control the butterfly on either of those systems?
They seem to be selling sound control rather than performance so that is not really the same subject.

[hrdtail78]

Does the ecm control the butterfly on either of those systems?
They seem to be selling sound control rather than performance so that is not really the same subject.

It does with this one and I don't think their goal was sound, but I don't know for sure.  It will work.  I think it is the same subject.  You don't have to respond to my input. 

[hrdtail78]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

I'm know expert.  I still want to learn plenty.

[1FSTRK]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

I'm know expert.  I still want to learn plenty.

I know.

The experts I was referring to make the tuning devices.

[hrdtail78]

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

[Bike31]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

[1FSTRK]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

What I have seen is they help with lower rpm HP/TQ without giving up high rpm HP/TQ in most throttle positions, particularly wide open throttle.

[hrdtail78]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

Exactly what we are talking about.  This isn't a new idea, and it has already been proven to work by the companies you mention.  I believe there are some automobiles the utilize a valve as well.
 

[1FSTRK]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

[hrdtail78]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

Is that all you got?  Tear down my idea, but not bringing anything to the table yourself.  If you don't think it would work.  That is fine and you can think that.  Having a understanding how and what the ECM does.  Will also give you the understanding that 5th and 6th gear limits, and how to get the valve to do what I want it to do is not that difficult for somebody that writes in the code and that has a tuning product that actually has a full calibration that loads into the ECM.  Probably why I brought up TTS.

I don't know what I did to ruffle your feathers.  I am sure it is just envy, but I don't let people discourage me, and I have done some pretty cool things right after people tell me I can't do that.  Unfortunately I have no desire to put a valve in my exhaust, but I have dyno'd some builds that I wish had a valve sometimes.

[1FSTRK]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

Is that all you got?  Tear down my idea, but not bringing anything to the table yourself.  If you don't think it would work.  That is fine and you can think that.  Having a understanding how and what the ECM does.  Will also give you the understanding that 5th and 6th gear limits, and how to get the valve to do what I want it to do is not that difficult for somebody that writes in the code and that has a tuning product that actually has a full calibration that loads into the ECM.  Probably why I brought up TTS.

I don't know what I did to ruffle your feathers.  I am sure it is just envy, but I don't let people discourage me, and I have done some pretty cool things right after people tell me I can't do that.  Unfortunately I have no desire to put a valve in my exhaust, but I have dyno'd some builds that I wish had a valve sometimes.

I was asking.
The red text brings attention to the parts of each quote that my post question pertains to in an attempt to avoid confusion and frankly this very problem.

The original post by FLTRI was why the people that make the tuners were not pursuing the very thing we have been discussing.
If you have the connections to get them to do it we would all be happy to use it. What would be nicer would be a civil discussion on what we would like to see from it and information from them on what is possible from the code.   

[joe_lyons]

[1FSTRK]

Joe would it be correct to assume that duty cycle is the percentage of blade opening used?

[joe_lyons]

Yep

[hrdtail78]

TTS already has it for 5th and 6th.  But remember that it has to be a HDI calibration for this to be active.  EAD009, EAC205, and EYB205 are examples that will show you 4-6 active exhaust DC.

I don't think that TPS is the best way to get what we are talking about.  I would rather see one table that is KPA over DC, but if I had my way.  I would also rather see a turkey feather valve over a butterfly because I think it would also double as a anti reversion cone.

What would be the motivation for the tuning companies to do this?  How many are they going to sell?  Most companies are motivated by making money and doing all the work to sell maybe 5-6 kits isn't enough motivation.  I am sure they get more calls about removing the HD active exhaust than they do putting one on or to reconfig it to work the way we are talking.

[rbabos]

Nothing to stop a guy from making his own with vacuum as the operating device. Hell, it's good enough for a waste gate on a turbo. Have it close as the kpa drops. Push pull cable from a remote mounted pot to keep the install cleaner.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Nothing to stop a guy from making his own with vacuum as the operating device. Hell, it's good enough for a waste gate on a turbo. Have it close as the kpa drops. Push pull cable from a remote mounted pot to keep the install cleaner.
Ron

Kind of like a hypercharger.  Theory is sound.

[Bike31]

Variable exhaust flow is available: http://www.nationalcycle.com/peacemakers-hd.html

Some dyno data: http://www.nationalcycle.com/n41403.html

[rbabos]

Some of these products are a joke. The object to having one in the first place is for low end tunabilty for best sensor sampling and best low end torque as well as wfo relatively unchanged. This can only be done with either some form of vacuum actuator that's adjustable or electrically controlled via ECM and software to adjust best function.
As far as noise for the neighbours, well, all it would do is change the level of pissedoffidness. They'd still wake up.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Nice new word

[rbabos]

Nice new word

Talking to websters right now

[Bike31]

The valves I've had as OEM were typically driven by precise stepper motors. At startup they cycle like the speedo, tach, and some throttle bodies to determine a base opening. Drop in gear or move and some initially close then open as programmed for whatever the designer wanted. On the BMW's (current LC opposed twins) there's a noticeable jump in power as (I assume) they open beyond a throttle or rpm threshold. That may also be due to changes in fuel and timing.

BMW is able to generate a flat as a "Cowsfacetorquecurve" (new word) with that tech: http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/09/03/2015-bmw-r1200r-naked-motorcycle-dyno-run-video-and-performance-chart/ I had one of these for some time and it performed as tested.

[1FSTRK]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.
   

[glens]

Nice new word

Talking to websters right now

A word getting sufficient use "in the wild" is sufficient for acceptance by Webster...

[glens]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.

Sounds like variable cam timing would either be better, or at least alongside the exhaust for that.

[1FSTRK]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.

Sounds like variable cam timing would either be better, or at least alongside the exhaust for that.

I agree totally, they are often used together. Testing will probably show that some existing cams will respond well to the active exhaust while others just will not.
The same goes for the exhaust system. I learned a long time ago that there is no magic bullet, just better combinations and large gains are usually just the sum of several small gains.

Giving the public the ability to experiment on many different combinations with a mouse click will help to speed up the process. I have watched exhaust testing/tuning for over 25 years and it is time consuming and labor intensive. The problem now is the guys that you need to do the work at the code level don't have a way to make big money on this and if they do not feel it will sell more tuners they just will not put in the time.
Things come to market one of two ways, The public is demanding the fix for a problem and everyone rushes to be the first name out there or someone with vision creates something the public did not know they wanted until they saw it work.

You offer most guys another 1000 rpm of usable tq curve when they are getting ready to spend a ton of money on a bike build and they will take it almost every time. The ones that don't will be back next year talking about what to do next to improve what they built. I personally have never owned a bike that did not get the exhaust modified in some way by the tuner while it was being dyno tuned.

[hrdtail78]

Looks to me the tuner is already set up for what people are looking for.   It only being in the HDI cals seems like a small hurdle.  What needs to come next is a valve in the exhaust with a pulley that will work with HD's cable controller.

[rigidthumper]

Anybody looked at the Buell system? ECM controlled active exhaust cable drive valve in the muffler, that responded to MAP and TPS vis the DDFI system. Oh, wait- most everybody took those off and tossed them. Too quiet.
nevermind...

[Pete_Vit]

Does the ecm control the butterfly on either of those systems?
They seem to be selling sound control rather than performance so that is not really the same subject.

but I do like the idea, I wonder how "quite' is quite mode 
I'm looking to trash my 2" M-Twins for a couple reasons, 1) loss of performance 2) too fri%%in loud all the time.

[hrdtail78]

Seems both system use basically the same butterfly valve.  I think the different is control for the application.

IME the more restrictive the exhaust the quieter it is.  The more free flowing the pipe.  The louder it is.  Take a set of drag pipes, and put in some baffles.  What happens.  They get quieter, low end tq dip is improved, and reversion goes down.  It doesn't matter if the goal was to quiet them down or to improve low end tq.  Same could be said with modifying a TH baffle, or changing disc count on a trap.

I have to rethink my statement on kpa over rpm.  I think this would be better for the guys looking to improve light load areas, and I think TPS over rpm would work better for higher load low end tq loss but it could also work for low load.  I think both could be accomplished with how it is set up now.

[1FSTRK]

Looks to me the tuner is already set up for what people are looking for.   It only being in the HDI cals seems like a small hurdle.  What needs to come next is a valve in the exhaust with a pulley that will work with HD's cable controller.

If that is all we need then it should be an easy part to make either from scratch or from modifying an existing part that is available all ready.

I will try to get with Vic and see if he has some time to go over the particulars with me, he will be doing the testing and tuning on my bike if something comes of this all and I can get him to make the time.

I have have not looked at either of my cals from TTS to see if they have this option.
I think the Road king is a 176 cal and the 2007 Softail I have no recollection what he used but the cal would have to be for a 07 Cable TB and support  130/130 power.

It would be great if I could end up with something like this.


We did some pipe and baffle testing but what made the bottom up always killed the top.

[1FSTRK]

I stopped by Vic's yesterday but he was way to busy to talk, he said to give him a week or two and stop back. He said he would be in for testing over the winter if something happens with this.

I have TTS on both bikes (his preference) but I will reach out to Power Vision this week to see if they can do anything to help, I have been messing with the PV on the 103 that my buddy is running and it looks like he would let me licence my bike to on his PV if need be.

 

[Steve Cole]

You cannot use the HD supplied parts to do what your hoping for. The factory parts are only designed as a Open/Closed assembly.

[Pete_Vit]

Anybody looked at the Buell system? ECM controlled active exhaust cable drive valve in the muffler, that responded to MAP and TPS vis the DDFI system. Oh, wait- most everybody took those off and tossed them. Too quiet.
nevermind...

Hum; now I have to check my Son's Buell

[joe_lyons]

You cannot use the HD supplied parts to do what your hoping for. The factory parts are only designed as a Open/Closed assembly.

Why is it set up as duty cycle then?

[hrdtail78]

Duty cycle makes more since to open or close.   

[1FSTRK]

I have no word back from PV yet but I have been doing a little read and my question is the same as the one Joe asked, may be a little more explanation could be provided with the answer.

In PV the Table Joe posted clearly shows you give values to specific rpm/throttle positions, so what is the difference between commanding a 50 at TP 100 at 2000 rpm
and commanding a 90 at TP 100 at 2000 rpm. Most places in the PV on and off is commanded with 0 or 1.

What does a TTS use for a table? Does it just toggle on or off the factory table?

[joe_lyons]

Duty cycle makes more since to open or close.

I agree that duty cycle would much better represent percentage opening.  Steve made it seem like it is just open or closed.

[hrdtail78]

That is what I got out of his statement as well.   But duty cycle is about open or close.  Nothing in between.   I assume it would look more like a throttle blade control table if it wasn't.

If somebody came out with a stepper motor.   Could the code be worked out to deal with that?

[joe_lyons]

Why would it be adjustable from 0 to 100 in 1% increments if it is just on or off?
Maybe the ECM sends pulses (per say) to close the valve and it does this in duty cycle knowing how much time it has.

I haven't messed with one but is the motor/valve held open/closed with a spring?

[hrdtail78]

...

[joe_lyons]

Or just do it and bypass the ho-hums
There's gotta be some guys from overseas willing to get rid of their exhaust

[hrdtail78]

Why would it be adjustable from 0 to 100 in 1% increments if it is just on or off?
Maybe the ECM sends pulses (per say) to close the valve and it does this in duty cycle knowing how much time it has.

I haven't messed with one but is the motor/valve held open/closed with a spring?

I haven't messed with one either.

[hrdtail78]

A variable valve is what I would be after.  You could tag into the TBW or the TPS  and control it separately.  Max could easily write something.

I was hoping some over sea tuners would pop up also.

[Admiral Akbar]

A variable valve is what I would be after.  You could tag into the TBW or the TPS  and control it separately.  Max could easily write something.

I was hoping some over sea tuners would pop up also.

It first I was thinking it would be a nightmare to program the ECU as you would be adding another dimension to a few arrays that the ECU uses.. VE and timing come to mind.  It could work well if the system used RPM to set the valve.. Exhaust controller could use the system serial bus to get RPMs..

[1FSTRK]

Or just do it and bypass the ho-hums
There's gotta be some guys from overseas willing to get rid of their exhaust

The hardware parts are accessible in any version, you first need to know what the ecm will and will not control, or what someone can make it control and then match the proper hardware to it.

Once again, no straight answers.

[rbabos]

Or just do it and bypass the ho-hums
There's gotta be some guys from overseas willing to get rid of their exhaust

After reading all this, they likely want to keep them.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Before anything it would be nice to know it actually produced less low rpm/load power.
No need for anything but a valve to install and manually opening and closing the valve to see what happens to power.
Bob

[rigidthumper]

FWIW, here's one of the Liberty 2-1 pipes- closed, 1/2 open, and open. Not a fan of the Liberty pipe.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=2298

[FLTRI]

FWIW, here's one of the Liberty 2-1 pipes- closed, 1/2 open, and open. Not a fan of the Liberty pipe.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=2298

Robin, is this a 2into1into2 or just a 2into1?
I think the hot tip may be as applied to restricting flow into the left side pipe on the 2into1into2 since the 2 mufflers are not assigned to individual cylinders.
Another test is compare the stock HD 2into1 (the 2into1into2 system with the left side blocked off) to the stock 2into1into2.
Bob

[rigidthumper]

Patriot Defender 2-1, on a Dyna, as seen here : http://shop.patriotpipes.com/shopby/super-glide--fat-bob.html

[1FSTRK]

I have seen 20 years of exhaust testing on the dyno and it works fine. The thing is we always have to settle for a compromise when picking the final baffle configuration. The butterfly valve is not the best solution but once the electronics are not the hold up everyone with an imagination and some fabricating skill will be able to R&D on it. Could be that the software guys do not understand or believe in the potential so they do not see the dollars to justify any effort.

Vic had one that ran off a shiftminder with a programmable rpm pill, instead of a shift light it ran a relay that activated a solenoid with a progressive linkage to help slow the open speed, he would change the rpm pill to create some lead time and the low end torque was  as good as a close Supertrapp with the topend within a couple HP of a threestep drag pipe. In 1992 he was operating it off the EFI system as well as a programmable air shifter and shift light, back then EFI was being developed for performance reasons now all the effort is either for EPA or direct sales to the average Joe.

Added
PS: No offence to Joe Lyons

[98fxstc]

Or just do it and bypass the ho-hums
There's gotta be some guys from overseas willing to get rid of their exhaust

After reading all this, they likely want to keep them.
Ron

I have the 1HD version so I didnt get one
but most bikes here leave the dealer with V&H pipes and a SE tuner
Got to be a pile of 'em somewhere

[FLTRI]

 :agree:l

I have seen 20 years of exhaust testing on the dyno and it works fine. The thing is we always have to settle for a compromise when picking the final baffle configuration. The butterfly valve is not the best solution but once the electronics are not the hold up everyone with an imagination and some fabricating skill will be able to R&D on it. Could be that the software guys do not understand or believe in the potential so they do not see the dollars to justify any effort.

Vic had one that ran off a shiftminder with a programmable rpm pill, instead of a shift light it ran a relay that activated a solenoid with a progressive linkage to help slow the open speed, he would change the rpm pill to create some lead time and the low end torque was  as good as a close Supertrapp with the topend within a couple HP of a threestep drag pipe. In 1992 he was operating it off the EFI system as well as a programmable air shifter and shift light, back then EFI was being developed for performance reasons now all the effort is either for EPA or direct sales to the average Joe.

Added
PS: No offence to Joe Lyons

That's very impressive results for sure. Wonder why a company like V&H hasn't jumped on this concept since they have their own tuning software, hardware, and exhaust systems?
Bob

[1FSTRK]

I think the profit is in the pipes and the tuners are just a way to sell pipes.
Until recently their tuners were fairly basic, enough to make the pipe work. More of a keep it simple to keep profit high.

Hp junkies innovate, corporations imitate.
This would also require real dyno time and tuning each time to get a worth while gain so the true Hp enthusiasts like here at HTT would be interested but percentage wise it is not a big numbers market, compared to the probably 95 percent that will buy slip on mufflers.

[FLTRI]

..This would also require real dyno time and tuning each time to get a worth while gain so the true Hp enthusiasts like here at HTT would be interested but percentage wise it is not a big numbers market, compared to the probably 95 percent that will buy slip on mufflers.

While I agree it would take a bit of time to develop a library of good mapping for each application. I'm sure there would be some commonality.
I also believe if it worked well enough folks would have to have it.
Bob

[Karl H.]

As an European Harley rider I am very familiar with the HD exhaust control. It is set up to pass the European sound emission test where the bike is fully accelerated over a 10 meter (33 ft) distance starting at 50km/h (31mph). The microphone is positioned 7 meter off the track and should not read more than 80 dBa. The test is performed in 2nd and 3rd gear only. That makes clear, why the duty cycle is set for these specific gears and specific rpm ranges. The flap actuator with its position switch feedback can just distinguish between fully opened and fully closed. The ability of the ECM goes beyond that obviously but is not fully used with the current actuator.

0% as well as 66% in the ECM settings (see pic provided by Joe_Lyons) means completely closed. 96% is fully opened.

The exhaust control opens/closes just the one headpipe which is followed by an open muffler. The other muffler ist widely plugged. With the flap closed you hear the engine just whispering and you feel a significant drop in torque and power. That is why European riders try to get rid of this exhaust control immediately after purchase of the bike.

Karl

[FLTRI]

As an European Harley rider I am very familiar with the HD exhaust control. It is set up to pass the European sound emission test where the bike is fully accelerated over a 10 meter (33 ft) distance starting at 50km/h (31mph). The microphone is positioned 7 meter off the track and should not read more than 80 dBa. The test is performed in 2nd and 3rd gear only. That makes clear, why the duty cycle is set for these specific gears and specific rpm ranges. The flap actuator with its position switch can just distinguish between fully opened and fully closed. The ability of the ECM goes beyond that obviously but is not fully used with the current actuator.

0% as well as 66% in the ECM settings (see pic provided by Joe_Lyons) means completely closed. 96% is fully opened.

The exhaust control opens/closes just the one headpipe which is followed by an open muffler. The other muffler ist widely plugged. With the flap closed you hear the engine just whispering and you feel a significant drop in torque and power. That is why European riders try to get rid of this exhaust control immediately after purchase of the bike.

Karl

Do you know if anyone has replaced the restricted muff with an open one? I would think that system may work pretty well when the plugged muff is replaced with a low restriction muff.
Won't be a big improvement if it is a stocker but with some overlap and free-breathing exhaust it should shine in the bottom end power.
Bob

[Karl H.]

Do you know if anyone has replaced the restricted muff with an open one? I would think that system may work pretty well when the plugged muff is replaced with a low restriction muff.
Won't be a big improvement if it is a stocker but with some overlap and free-breathing exhaust it should shine in the bottom end power.
Bob

They all do that  They replace the restricted muffler by a second open one. Also very popular in Germany are the Jekyll & Hyde mufflers with muffler integrated valves and separate control system linked to the ECM. But I never heared or read about sucessfully using the flap(s) for torque optimization 




http://jekillandhyde.com

Karl

[1FSTRK]

It seem that anyone that is developing anything to utilize the system is looking at it from a noise control stand point with total disregard for any performance designs. The performance design would more than likely not meet the noise control standards so that is why they do not work on it.

[FLTRI]

It seem that anyone that is developing anything to utilize the system is looking at it from a noise control stand point with total disregard for any performance designs. The performance design would more than likely not meet the noise control standards so that is why they do not work on it.

I absolutely agree. The mentality (OEM & aftermarket) has been geared towards noise reduction rather than exhaust tuning for performance as applied to builds with significant cam timing overlap which hurts low rpm power.
It will take a visionary in the business to come to the exhaust tuning party.
Will it be a tuning company? Exhaust company? Or a just a guy in his garage?
If the results are obvious and repeatable with different build it would sell as well as any other performance system if marketed correctly.
Since we know some folks with change gears, cams, and exhaust to increase torque for their land yachts but don't want to give up top end power. If done right it could be a win/win by improving low rpm power without giving up top end power.
Bob

[1FSTRK]

That is where this thread started. The back yard guys have gotten as far as they can without some help from the software.

[joe_lyons]

As an European Harley rider I am very familiar with the HD exhaust control. It is set up to pass the European sound emission test where the bike is fully accelerated over a 10 meter (33 ft) distance starting at 50km/h (31mph). The microphone is positioned 7 meter off the track and should not read more than 80 dBa. The test is performed in 2nd and 3rd gear only. That makes clear, why the duty cycle is set for these specific gears and specific rpm ranges. The flap actuator with its position switch can just distinguish between fully opened and fully closed. The ability of the ECM goes beyond that obviously but is not fully used with the current actuator.

0% as well as 66% in the ECM settings (see pic provided by Joe_Lyons) means completely closed. 96% is fully opened.

The exhaust control opens/closes just the one headpipe which is followed by an open muffler. The other muffler ist widely plugged. With the flap closed you hear the engine just whispering and you feel a significant drop in torque and power. That is why European riders try to get rid of this exhaust control immediately after purchase of the bike.

Karl

I'm trying to figure out what the point is of having duty cycle of 0 through 100 when 96 the tipping point I guess.

[1FSTRK]

Joe it could be that the table was set up by Delphi to do what we are thinking but being used by HD as an opened or closed switch. Exactly why we need a software guy to see what is in there and give us access to use it or change it to what we need.

[Bike31]

Do the bikes with that exhaust use a multi-position stepper (like other manufacturers) or just a simple two position motor (like a closed<>open valve driver)?

Post #80 implies the latter.

[Karl H.]

Do the bikes with that exhaust use a multi-position stepper (like other manufacturers) or just a simple two position motor (like a closed<>open valve driver)?

Post #80 implies the latter.

Definitely the latter! See the elec diag manual...

Karl

[Bike31]

From the 2013 Softail Electrical Service Manual:

Active Exhaust Actuator: HDI Only
The active exhaust system utilizes an actuator valve located
in the rear exhaust pipe. This valve is connected to a servo
motor via a cable. The valve position automatically adjusts to
enhance engine performance.

[Karl H.]

I might be wrong 

On page 6-74 of the Manual the tests 4. and 6. indicate that the feedback voltage is between below 1V and above 4.5V depending on the valve position closed vs. open. Wether there is a continuous change of voltage between these boundaries remains unclear. I should do some testing 

Karl

[1FSTRK]

I might be wrong 

On page 6-74 of the Manual the tests 4. and 6. indicate that the feedback voltage is between below 1V and above 4.5V depending on the valve position closed vs. open. Wether there is a continuous change of voltage between these boundaries remains unclear. I should do some testing 

Karl

Please do.
If indeed this is the case will still need to get the 5th, 6th, lock out removed in the software or find a way to fool it.

Could someone check and see which pins in the ecm run the exhaust system?

[Coyote]

Pin 21 

[attach=0]

[joe_lyons]

I sent powerglides an email asking about it but have not received anything as of yet.


It might be like an ACR in the fact that it is just a solenoid that opens and closes but can be opened partially if controlled by the ECM properly.

It would be nice to have the table for active exhaust be in KPA so that it can match engine load.

[1FSTRK]

It seems like that would be best Joe but a rpm by TP would work, at this point anything to get started with would be good with the ability to control the percentage of opening.

[Coyote]

MAP X RPM would be ideal I would think.

[1FSTRK]

Will PV or TTS data log the output from pin 21?

[Karl H.]

The pin for sensor feedback is #38!

Karl

[Karl H.]

For reference the Kawasaki exhaust valve actuator with two cables and continuously operating valve position sensor. HD has one cable only in combination with a return spring. This indicates a simple on/off functionality imho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsVQLm80kSo

Karl

[1FSTRK]

For reference the Kawasaki exhaust valve actuator with two cables and continuously operating valve position sensor. HD has one cable only in combination with a return spring. This indicates a simple on/off functionality imho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsVQLm80kSo

Karl

Thanks for all the info Karl.
Not sure the number of cables is really an indicator.
Why would a open/closed circuit need the the exhaust feedback circuit?
In true HD fashion it may have come from Delphi with the right idea and been cheaped down a Harley by the bean counters. Does the module harness use all 5 pins?

[Karl H.]

Does the module harness use all 5 pins?

Just four of them:



Even a simple open/close valve needs a feed back circuit imho. A continuously closed valve has to deliver an error code.

Karl

[Bike31]

Does the feedback wire relay variable voltage or resistance to the ECM in the HD setup? The units I had on Yamaha, Suzuki, and BMW's were a two control cable setup with stepper motors. They'd do their initialization on startup then walk around as required when underway. Wouldn't be too hard to remove the cable at the valve and watch it while riding. That's what I did on my 1900 V-Twin Yamahas. I tried fixing the valve position in various spots but ended up leaving it alone. On the Suxuki M109 I added an aftermarket exhaust without a valve so had to fabricate a dummy attachment to the motor to give it the resistance it expected at both ends of the drive motor's travel to avoid trouble codes.

From the 2013 Softail Service manual:

7. Feedback Run Test
1. Turn IGN OFF.
2. Clear codes.
3. Start engine.
4. Run engine between 1500-2500 rpm.
5. Does exhaust valve open at 1600 rpm or less and close
at 1800 or more?
a. Yes. System operating properly.
b. No. Replace ECM.

[Karl H.]

The HD actuator does a close/open cycle at start up too. To avoid trouble codes a resistor plug is needed when the actuator is removed.

In Europe there is an easy to perform sound test which can be done by the police at the roadside. To be compliant with this test the valve gets closed at above 1800 U/min in neutral.

I bought one of the thousands obsolete HD actuators cheap (€ 20,-) off ebay today and will do some experimenting hardware analysis soon. 

Karl

[1FSTRK]

Sounds good
I can't touch a used set-up here in the states, a new unit is 200.00 list.

I am thinking one of the big up sides will be the ability to break up the lowend reversion in the spots where a free flowing exhaust will not play well with the O2 sensors and closed loop. There are always rpm ranges that the tune will deteriorate unless locked out, this will not be a cure all but if it helps much at all it will be worth it.

[Bike31]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8fevTadD0

Lots of red and blue waves of +- pressure. Dyno Man could figure it all out.

Gary

[Nowhereman]

I'd like to see someone develop a servo controlled adjustable length 2 into 1.
That to me would be the ultimate pipe.
F1 had them for a while before the FIA banned them for safety reasons.

[FLTRI]

Sounds good
I can't touch a used set-up here in the states, a new unit is 200.00 list.

I am thinking one of the big up sides will be the ability to break up the lowend reversion in the spots where a free flowing exhaust will not play well with the O2 sensors and closed loop. There are always rpm ranges that the tune will deteriorate unless locked out, this will not be a cure all but if it helps much at all it will be worth it.

I agree. Even if it is only open/closed operation and no appreciable increase in low rpm power, if the closed loop system works more efficiently because if it, it would provide a smoother, more responsive ride in the low rpm/load areas.
My guess is the more overlap in cam timing the better the valve would work.
Bob

[Hilly13]

The big question is can this be done with what we have.
Does anyone think it's possible to control the valve for tuning purposes?

[Karl H.]

The actuator arrived today. The pic shows the unit with DC Motor and cable puller.






After opening the housing I found a variable resistor on the output shaft and an electronic control circuit covered with potting compound. Using an Ohm meter it got clear that the variable resistor had no direct connection to the feedback pin (4).





I connected the unit to a laboratory power supply (12V) and triggered the actuator by jumping pin 3 to ground as described in the manual. The output pulley turns completely into "valve closed" position and stops. A second trigger lets the pulley turn back into "valve open" position and stop. All this is controlled by the internal circuitry of the unit obviously. The ECM just does a pin 3 to ground trigger and gets an opened/closed Feedback from pin 4 (<1V vs. 5V).

There seems to be no way to use the actuator for approaching intermediate valve positions. 

Karl   

[1FSTRK]

Not the news I was hoping for but what a great way to get it. You saved me $200.00 on buying the part, did a great job on the testing and shared detailed information including pictures. I will have to do some thinking on all this. In the meantime  for you. Thanks for the effort.

Added
This puts us at square one. Without a software guy on board we cannot control this valve or any other valve.

[Hilly13]

Well Karl at least we know that for sure now 
The valve could still be usefull though, if we can gain control of the opening and closing function to when we want it to happen ie light load under 2500rpm type of deal, that domain is way over my pay level, it may not even be possible with the Delphi 

[joe_lyons]

Let us know what it does when the bike is running and pluged in.

[FLTRI]

Karl,
Looks like an electric motor drives the valve?
What does the actual valve look like?
There sure is a lot of electronics it that open/close operation.
Bob

[Bike31]

I'd measure feedback voltage or note the cabling when installed to see if it has any intermediate rotation.

[FLTRI]

Check this out:
http://www.kokusandenki.co.jp/english/products/products2.html
Bob

[Bike31]

The drive units I've had on other bikes typically drove two cables. At key-on they'd turn full open hard enough to create slack in the non-pulled cable, return to full closed to create slack in the other cable, then turn slightly in a ~25% open position prior to start. At start they'd not move, but when the bike was put in gear and accelerated the valve would hunt for a variable programmed position.

I assume they read the intermediate valve openings either via feedback voltage or whatever control a stepper motor (if that's what's installed) might require from the ECU. HD may just use a simple voltage feedback as a 2-position control. Riding might reveal otherwise.

Edit: From my 2015 Dyna electrical manual>>>For HD International models the active intake solenoid (AIS) and the active exhaust actuator (AEA) utilize the same power source and function simultaneously. The AIS and AEA open at >45 mph with >50% throttle opening. They close when <40 mph. Power for the AIS/AEA come from the BCM. The ECM provides the trigger to ground for the line.

[Karl H.]

Let us know what it does when the bike is running and pluged in.

I own two bikes with this actuator (FLSTN, FLHX). They do what I described in post #80 when enabled (I disabled them with my Power Vision).

Karl

[1FSTRK]

Edit: From my 2015 Dyna electrical manual>>>For HD International models the active intake solenoid (AIS) and the active exhaust actuator (AEA) utilize the same power source and function simultaneously. The AIS and AEA open at >45 mph with >50% throttle opening. They close when <40 mph. Power for the AIS/AEA come from the BCM. The ECM provides the trigger to ground for the line.

Just thinking out loud here, is it possible that PV uses its duty cycle table to change the input that tells the ecm the bike speed and tp to achieve some type of tuning for when the valve opens and closes? Less than ideal but if there is adjustment then there is the ability to tweek and tune.

[Karl H.]

The exhaust side (linked to the actuator with a cable removed in this pic):



As one can see the exhaust path gets completely closed by the valve. There is no bypass for the exhaust gases in this header. All the exhaust gases are led to the second muffler which is widely plugged. It's a noise reduction measure, nothing else...

Karl

[1FSTRK]

Yes we realize that is what HD intended but the valve can be altered, added to a different exhaust system, or replaced with a different valve all together if we can gain some control over it.

[FLTRI]

Yes we realize that is what HD intended but the valve can be altered, added to a different exhaust system, or replaced with a different valve all together if we can gain some control over it.

That's the idea. Take a sound attenuator and make a tuning valve from it by removing the obstacles in the exhaust flow..ie: freeflowing mufflers.
Bob

[Hilly13]

Control, we need control 

[Nowhereman]

That's what she said......

[MaxxV4]

I think that's what the government is saying......... 

[Hilly13]

I think that's what the government is saying......... 

Yeah you guys are as stuffed as us when it comes to politicians.........

Mr Cole, do you think there is anything that can be accomplished with this valve or we just urinating into the breeze here?

[98fxstc]

Check this out:
http://www.kokusandenki.co.jp/english/products/products2.html
Bob

Difficult to find similar units on the website
Looks as though they may be available
I wonder if this particular unit has been 'dumbed down' by Kokusan Denki for use by the Moco

Here is a link for installation instructions from a company in Oz that works with active exhaust systems for high performance cars
http://www.activeexhaustsystems.com.au/images/pdf/Stage3.pdf
Uses TPS only, RPM only or TPS and RPM together , as options to operate the solenoid

Most of the parts and technology we need are almost at hand

A TTS (OR PV) option (using existing sensors and data ) for active exhaust would be very popular

[Don D]

From the website..
"The actuators provided by Kokusan Denki can be either integrated with or separate from the controllers depending on the layout and the application. Our sturdy motors and intelligent controllers that have been developed through our experience to date check the connected cable unit assembly variation at startup to operate accurately in response to the signal from the vehicle."

[Karl H.]

From the website..
"The actuators provided by Kokusan Denki can be either integrated with or separate from the controllers depending on the layout and the application. Our sturdy motors and intelligent controllers that have been developed through our experience to date check the connected cable unit assembly variation at startup to operate accurately in response to the signal from the vehicle."

That completely applies to the HD open/close actuator 

Karl