Active Exhaust Valving

[hrdtail78]

Does the ecm control the butterfly on either of those systems?
They seem to be selling sound control rather than performance so that is not really the same subject.

It does with this one and I don't think their goal was sound, but I don't know for sure.  It will work.  I think it is the same subject.  You don't have to respond to my input. 

[hrdtail78]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

I'm know expert.  I still want to learn plenty.

[1FSTRK]

It is hard to get the experts to stop telling you what is wrong and start helping to work around it.

I'm know expert.  I still want to learn plenty.

I know.

The experts I was referring to make the tuning devices.

[hrdtail78]

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

[Bike31]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

[1FSTRK]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

What I have seen is they help with lower rpm HP/TQ without giving up high rpm HP/TQ in most throttle positions, particularly wide open throttle.

[hrdtail78]

Had a few Yamaha V-Twins, a Suzuki, and some BMW's with an exhaust valve. No dyno, but disabled and left open I felt it lost low end and was slightly louder. They open up WFO so no change, and intermediate it ran in between. Claim to reduce dips in the torque curve.

I guess this is what this thread is about. If not I'll delete the post.

Exactly what we are talking about.  This isn't a new idea, and it has already been proven to work by the companies you mention.  I believe there are some automobiles the utilize a valve as well.
 

[1FSTRK]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

[hrdtail78]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

Is that all you got?  Tear down my idea, but not bringing anything to the table yourself.  If you don't think it would work.  That is fine and you can think that.  Having a understanding how and what the ECM does.  Will also give you the understanding that 5th and 6th gear limits, and how to get the valve to do what I want it to do is not that difficult for somebody that writes in the code and that has a tuning product that actually has a full calibration that loads into the ECM.  Probably why I brought up TTS.

I don't know what I did to ruffle your feathers.  I am sure it is just envy, but I don't let people discourage me, and I have done some pretty cool things right after people tell me I can't do that.  Unfortunately I have no desire to put a valve in my exhaust, but I have dyno'd some builds that I wish had a valve sometimes.

[1FSTRK]

The code has been opened up in power vision and Mastertune cals. The only problem that I saw was that it is deactivated and 5th and 6th gears

Best way I know how to make it work is to DIY the hardware and have TTS take care of the calibration.   How would you do it?   

Does TTS now allow you to keep the valve active in 5th and 6th gear?
This may require more than just accessing what HD has because of the way they used it vs what we would be trying to use it for.

Is that all you got?  Tear down my idea, but not bringing anything to the table yourself.  If you don't think it would work.  That is fine and you can think that.  Having a understanding how and what the ECM does.  Will also give you the understanding that 5th and 6th gear limits, and how to get the valve to do what I want it to do is not that difficult for somebody that writes in the code and that has a tuning product that actually has a full calibration that loads into the ECM.  Probably why I brought up TTS.

I don't know what I did to ruffle your feathers.  I am sure it is just envy, but I don't let people discourage me, and I have done some pretty cool things right after people tell me I can't do that.  Unfortunately I have no desire to put a valve in my exhaust, but I have dyno'd some builds that I wish had a valve sometimes.

I was asking.
The red text brings attention to the parts of each quote that my post question pertains to in an attempt to avoid confusion and frankly this very problem.

The original post by FLTRI was why the people that make the tuners were not pursuing the very thing we have been discussing.
If you have the connections to get them to do it we would all be happy to use it. What would be nicer would be a civil discussion on what we would like to see from it and information from them on what is possible from the code.   

[joe_lyons]

[1FSTRK]

Joe would it be correct to assume that duty cycle is the percentage of blade opening used?

[joe_lyons]

Yep

[hrdtail78]

TTS already has it for 5th and 6th.  But remember that it has to be a HDI calibration for this to be active.  EAD009, EAC205, and EYB205 are examples that will show you 4-6 active exhaust DC.

I don't think that TPS is the best way to get what we are talking about.  I would rather see one table that is KPA over DC, but if I had my way.  I would also rather see a turkey feather valve over a butterfly because I think it would also double as a anti reversion cone.

What would be the motivation for the tuning companies to do this?  How many are they going to sell?  Most companies are motivated by making money and doing all the work to sell maybe 5-6 kits isn't enough motivation.  I am sure they get more calls about removing the HD active exhaust than they do putting one on or to reconfig it to work the way we are talking.

[rbabos]

Nothing to stop a guy from making his own with vacuum as the operating device. Hell, it's good enough for a waste gate on a turbo. Have it close as the kpa drops. Push pull cable from a remote mounted pot to keep the install cleaner.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Nothing to stop a guy from making his own with vacuum as the operating device. Hell, it's good enough for a waste gate on a turbo. Have it close as the kpa drops. Push pull cable from a remote mounted pot to keep the install cleaner.
Ron

Kind of like a hypercharger.  Theory is sound.

[Bike31]

Variable exhaust flow is available: http://www.nationalcycle.com/peacemakers-hd.html

Some dyno data: http://www.nationalcycle.com/n41403.html

[rbabos]

Some of these products are a joke. The object to having one in the first place is for low end tunabilty for best sensor sampling and best low end torque as well as wfo relatively unchanged. This can only be done with either some form of vacuum actuator that's adjustable or electrically controlled via ECM and software to adjust best function.
As far as noise for the neighbours, well, all it would do is change the level of pissedoffidness. They'd still wake up.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Nice new word

[rbabos]

Nice new word

Talking to websters right now

[Bike31]

The valves I've had as OEM were typically driven by precise stepper motors. At startup they cycle like the speedo, tach, and some throttle bodies to determine a base opening. Drop in gear or move and some initially close then open as programmed for whatever the designer wanted. On the BMW's (current LC opposed twins) there's a noticeable jump in power as (I assume) they open beyond a throttle or rpm threshold. That may also be due to changes in fuel and timing.

BMW is able to generate a flat as a "Cowsfacetorquecurve" (new word) with that tech: http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/09/03/2015-bmw-r1200r-naked-motorcycle-dyno-run-video-and-performance-chart/ I had one of these for some time and it performed as tested.

[1FSTRK]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.
   

[glens]

Nice new word

Talking to websters right now

A word getting sufficient use "in the wild" is sufficient for acceptance by Webster...

[glens]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.

Sounds like variable cam timing would either be better, or at least alongside the exhaust for that.

[1FSTRK]

That is the reason there is interest on my part. The many cam pipe combos that will move the tq to the right side of the graph could be reworked to extend back to the left side with an active exhaust valve and some testing/tuning. I have had both right side and left side tq curves and the ability to have both is attractive. I have seen experiments at the local shop with exhaust valves run by vacuum, springs, and cables. They even had one run by a solenoid valve that was triggered by a rpm programmable computer but it was an on/off so it was either closed or wide open.

Having the ecm run it as much as it needs when ever it needs no matter what cal you are already using would be a big plus.

Sounds like variable cam timing would either be better, or at least alongside the exhaust for that.

I agree totally, they are often used together. Testing will probably show that some existing cams will respond well to the active exhaust while others just will not.
The same goes for the exhaust system. I learned a long time ago that there is no magic bullet, just better combinations and large gains are usually just the sum of several small gains.

Giving the public the ability to experiment on many different combinations with a mouse click will help to speed up the process. I have watched exhaust testing/tuning for over 25 years and it is time consuming and labor intensive. The problem now is the guys that you need to do the work at the code level don't have a way to make big money on this and if they do not feel it will sell more tuners they just will not put in the time.
Things come to market one of two ways, The public is demanding the fix for a problem and everyone rushes to be the first name out there or someone with vision creates something the public did not know they wanted until they saw it work.

You offer most guys another 1000 rpm of usable tq curve when they are getting ready to spend a ton of money on a bike build and they will take it almost every time. The ones that don't will be back next year talking about what to do next to improve what they built. I personally have never owned a bike that did not get the exhaust modified in some way by the tuner while it was being dyno tuned.