Lots of Internal Pics + Good Tech Info

[City Chicken]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/harleys-all-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin#page-8

[jbexeter]

looks like not a hell of a lot of piston skirt to transfer all that torque to the bores.


arguably the cylinder head is the most important part of an IC engine, and the new one just leaves me uneasy, what's this, some sort of breather, or an oil particle filter for all those tiny galleries around the valve stems??

https://www.facebook.com/bertsbarracuda/photos/a.154215881310217.38250.153560658042406/1109487625783033/?type=3&theater

[rageglide]

Interesting breather design.  Will be a lot more difficult for oil to fill up the breather and carry out to the atmosphere.

I wonder if the additional passage in the cylinder feeds the breather.  Would make a lot more sense than the old style which often has the pickup side fo the breather immersed in oil.   

[rbabos]

looks like not a hell of a lot of piston skirt to transfer all that torque to the bores.


arguably the cylinder head is the most important part of an IC engine, and the new one just leaves me uneasy, what's this, some sort of breather, or an oil particle filter for all those tiny galleries around the valve stems??

https://www.facebook.com/bertsbarracuda/photos/a.154215881310217.38250.153560658042406/1109487625783033/?type=3&theater

Just a larger condenser area for vapors before venting out of engine. Let's face it that mini disc pad was a joke before.
Ron

[VDeuce]

Should be fun changing that second spark plug...

[Pete_Vit]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/harleys-all-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin#page-8

looks like a lot of pressure on the entire top end, from cam to rockers now with 2 valve springs to push 

[SP33DY]

looks like a lot of pressure on the entire top end, from cam to rockers now with 2 valve springs to push

Those two valve springs probably won't take any any more force than a single beehive on a TC.

[rich1]

Looking forward to the experts on here looking at the photos.  And pointing out what they see and strengths and weaknesses.

[Pete_Vit]

looks like a lot of pressure on the entire top end, from cam to rockers now with 2 valve springs to push

Those two valve springs probably won't take any any more force than a single beehive on a TC.

prolly right, I just can't wait for the stage I - III upgrades + new heads requiring new rocker boxes or rocker arms..etc

[wfolarry]

http://www.baggersmag.com/

[wfolarry]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/harleys-all-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin#page-8

looks like a lot of pressure on the entire top end, from cam to rockers now with 2 valve springs to push 

Lighter valves, lighter springs & less lift = less work performed.

[No Cents]

 just looking at the pictures the first thing I noticed was the front cylinder looks to be offset to the right from the rear cylinder...then the cases are totally different for the lifters...no more pins holding the lifters straight in their bore.
And how would you change the plug under the tank...without lifting the tank off.    just a few things I noticed.

Ray

[rbabos]

just looking at the pictures the first thing I noticed was the front cylinder looks to be offset to the right from the rear cylinder...then the cases are totally different for the lifters...no more pins holding the lifters straight in their bore.
And how would you change the plug under the tank...without lifting the tank off.    just a few things I noticed.

Ray

I see no cyl offset but lifter bores are due to the longer camshaft.
Ron

[Soft 02]

[-deuced-]

Some good pics there. Spark plugs will probably last for years. Still got forked conrods, cylinders are inline. Small end and lifter bores look a bit rough. Is the counterbalancer drive gear adjustable? Is the oil pump 3 stage? Torrington inner cam bearing? Same cases for all families? Rocker shafts appear to be locked down. Oil lines in rocker arms are interesting.

[CowboyTutt]

Is that gear drive set-up on the crank-driven balancer going to be noisy?  Victory bikes sound terrible at start up and idling (at least the last one I heard years ago did).  Whirred away like a gear driven cam Honda V4.  Hope not.  The Softail set-up was chain driven IIRC. 

-Tutt 

[Soft 02]

The pin and slot look more worrisome. Gear must be made of Unubtanium.

[rageglide]

I was wondering the same about that pin and slot... Not sure why they would use an arrangement like that.  Would think it'd clunk on and off throttle or at startup. 

Of course these new cranks won't shift so gear whine shouldn't be a problem...

[-deuced-]

Looks like timing marks on those counterbalancer gears. Would altering gear position effect balance factor? 75% for rubber mount and 100% for solid mount.

[rbabos]

Too hard to tell from the pics but I suspect on that lightening hole only half is removed with a round hole in the bottom half. To slop around like that would be nonsensical.
Ron

[TXChop]

Who's gonna be the first to shear the pin off? Seen it many times on vanos units on foreign car camshafts.

[TXChop]

 Any notice the ball bag fan. Me thinks this EPA motor may run hot from the factory.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/coolflow-fan

And the giant fanned oil cooler upgrade.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/fan-assisted-oil-cooler-kit

[FSG]

Looks like timing marks on those counterbalancer gears. Would altering gear position effect balance factor? 75% for rubber mount and 100% for solid mount.

how much would it need to move for the weight to hit the big end   

[-deuced-]

Yeah, good point. I don't think it's a dowel pin, perhaps more of a safeguard. I'm thinking counterbalancer sprocket is a press fit, like tc softails. If it does move it's only going to go that far.

[yobtaf103]

Looks like timing marks on those counterbalancer gears. Would altering gear position effect balance factor? 75% for rubber mount and 100% for solid mount.

how much would it need to move for the weight to hit the big end   

Must have missed it , so these are not rigid mount still some rubber mount?
Seen the video mention they could have gone 100% but too smooth (for character), be interesting to see which way they go on Softail/ Dyna

H,mm the big heat management cure is oil cooled heads in the main line motors, (still avoiding the unsightly radiator problem since the nova) is there a fan on the oil rad?

[yobtaf103]

Any notice the ball bag fan. Me thinks this EPA motor may run hot from the factory.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/coolflow-fan

And the giant fanned oil cooler upgrade.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/fan-assisted-oil-cooler-kit
[/quote

Jeez, they flog it as an add on!!

[jbexeter]

Undoubtedly there is no lack of engineering talent, experience or resources at HD, but this looks like something designed by a comittee, with the actual engineers themselves having their hands tied, and having to revert to all sorts of crazy wrinkles to meet the comittee's wish list / demands.

Well we can't go a full water jacket for looks, so we'll just make do with oil cooling, a liquid that simply cannot compete with water when it comes to thermal transport.

Well we need at least 1/2 HP / 250 watts of DC power at idle to run all this eletronickery, so the motor is now wider, so we need a new compensator and we need to shift the balancers somewhere.

So the balancer gets put where if anything goes wrong it will impact the crank pin, presumably at high rpm, and the case will simply self destruct... having said that dropping bits of piston skirt in there will do it.

Be interesting to see a side by side comparison, evo or twinkie vs one of these and various jobs done and various shop times.... when Honda brought the cbx out and you had to tilt the entire engine forwards in the frame to balance the carbs everyone thought they were insane, but a lot of that stuff is par for the course now, removing fuel tanks to change service items like spark plugs and air filters, so service items don't get services and things die younger than they should.

[SP33DY]

Can anybody post up the part numbers for the cylinder heads? My local dealer said he does not have any part numbers for it yet. I need to get a set to put on the flowbench.

[harleytuner]

Is that gear drive set-up on the crank-driven balancer going to be noisy?  Victory bikes sound terrible at start up and idling (at least the last one I heard years ago did).  Whirred away like a gear driven cam Honda V4.  Hope not.  The Softail set-up was chain driven IIRC. 

-Tutt

THERE
there is a very noticeable whine I've been told.  Enough that there is already a dyno a few dealer complaints/calls about it. They were told it's normal.

I know of one company that is set to have a prototype custom ground cam in their hands Friday.  A working aftermarket tuner should be on the market very soon. Hopefully some A/C and exhaust options are soon to follow.  I keep hearing about tamper proof fasteners on the A/C but I was told by a guy that removed one off a prototype engine that it didn't require anything but normal tools, maybe they made a change for the final revision? 

[rich1]

HD first used the oil cooled heads on the XR1200. I owned one and was a member of an XR1200 forum. One of the members left his bike at Zippers as a test mule and they were very impressed with how effective cooling the heads with oil was. I realize this is a different animal but just pointing out it can be effective.

[joe_lyons]

HD first used the oil cooled heads on the XR1200. I owned one and was a member of an XR1200 forum. One of the members left his bike at Zippers as a test mule and they were very impressed with how effective cooling the heads with oil was. I realize this is a different animal but just pointing out it can be effective.

Better than nothing.

[BUBBIE]

  

I never looked How this system of Oil Cooling works..... Does the engine oil pump through or is it a separate system like a radiator, Pump? or just rely on heat to circulate the oil?

IF you use a synthetic (small sized Molecules)  and/or a really Thin Oil, it might surprise how well it can work... 

signed....BUBBIE

TKS Ron..... good response Below...

[rbabos]

 

I never looked How this system of Oil Cooling works..... Does the engine oil pump through or is it a separate system like a radiator, Pump? or just rely on heat to circulate the oil?

IF you use a synthetic (small sized Molecules)  and/or a really Thin Oil, it might surprise how well it can work... 

signed....BUBBIE

Probably a metered jet to control amount from the new increased flow pump used to counter this loss. That's how the vrod lubes the center section of the gear box.  Basically goes through and dumps back into the sump. Syn oils might be a better choice to reduce passage coking.
Ron

[jbexeter]

 

I never looked How this system of Oil Cooling works..... Does the engine oil pump through or is it a separate system like a radiator, Pump? or just rely on heat to circulate the oil?

IF you use a synthetic (small sized Molecules)  and/or a really Thin Oil, it might surprise how well it can work... 

signed....BUBBIE

Oil can work well to remove heat, apart from lubrication that is a *huge* job that oild does in an IC engine.

The *problem* is specific heat capacity, water is over twice as good as oil at transporting heat, so in restricted areas where flow is limited by cross sectional area such as galleries around the valves in the new heads, and indeed draining back down the barrels while maintaining the slim air cooled look, your maximum flow is fairly limited, so at the same maximum flow rate water could transport away heat at twice plus the speed of oil.

One of the reasons turbos die quickly is people don't let the engine spool down and idel for a couple of minutes while the oil carries away the heat from the bearings, so make no mistake that oil can transport significant amounts of heat, even if water is twice as good, you need new plumbing and jointing and separate systems.

In detroit diesels the fuel pressure system transported a lot of heat out of the engine, from memory the fuel circulation pump would do 40 gallons per minute on an 8v71...

If HD (or anyone else) had a *separate* oil pump to the lube pump that just circulated oil for cooling purposes you could transport some serious quantities of heat.

If HD (or anyone else) are using *just* the lube oil pump to do double duty then the oil cooling isn't "serious", so we can only assume that heat buildup in the exhaust valve area was only a borderline issue and not a serious issue.

[thunderalley3]

Looks like the same basic oil cooling  system that the XR1200 used a few years ago. It worked well

[boooby1744]

5.2 quarts capacity........? Any photos of the oil pan?

[Soft 02]

It appears the tranny is taller and closer to the motor to accommodate the larger oil pan. Note the fill is at the rear.

[04 SE Deuce]

I'm thinking it's possible that we can't see some parts that are under the balancer gear and the pin/slot are the travel limiters for a spring loaded or other type of compensating device that lessens shock on the gears between crank and balancer when the crank rpm changes abruptly.

[BUBBIE]

Kinda like the a Little movement under Sharp Load;  allowed movement for Not shearing apart? Another Small moving Compensator? 

signed....BUBBIE

[VDeuce]

Wonder if we will see roller rockers for these. Then again, perhaps the geometry is correct enough without the need for much higher lift to not make it worth it?

[rbabos]

Kinda like the a Little movement under Sharp Load;  allowed movement for Not shearing apart? Another Small moving Compensator? 

signed....BUBBIE

Doubt it. Gear is pressed on the crank. If anything the pin is a fail safe to not allow a slip that would cause crank contact and if someone views the spaces on each side of the pin they can see if it actually slipped or not. My take only.
Ron

[Soft 02]

Kinda like the a Little movement under Sharp Load;  allowed movement for Not shearing apart? Another Small moving Compensator? 

signed....BUBBIE

Doubt it. Gear is pressed on the crank. If anything the pin is a fail safe to not allow a slip that would cause crank contact and if someone views the spaces on each side of the pin they can see if it actually slipped or not. My take only.
Ron

Now that you mention it that makes more sense!

[04 SE Deuce]

Kinda like the a Little movement under Sharp Load;  allowed movement for Not shearing apart? Another Small moving Compensator? 

signed....BUBBIE

Doubt it. Gear is pressed on the crank. If anything the pin is a fail safe to not allow a slip that would cause crank contact and if someone views the spaces on each side of the pin they can see if it actually slipped or not. My take only.
Ron

Now that you mention it that makes more sense!

I'll stick with range/movement limiter.

[FSG]

 

I never looked How this system of Oil Cooling works..... Does the engine oil pump through or is it a separate system like a radiator, Pump? or just rely on heat to circulate the oil?

IF you use a synthetic (small sized Molecules)  and/or a really Thin Oil, it might surprise how well it can work... 

signed....BUBBIE

TKS Ron..... good response Below...

It's the engine oil pump that moves the oil through the cooling process, note there are two sizes of oil pumps, gotta run, pix and more info later.

[BUBBIE]

Might it use the Larger return gerotor for oil movement? Not the thin Pressure side of the gerotor?

I'll wait for your posting FSG...

tks

signed....BUBBIE

[rbabos]

 

I never looked How this system of Oil Cooling works..... Does the engine oil pump through or is it a separate system like a radiator, Pump? or just rely on heat to circulate the oil?

IF you use a synthetic (small sized Molecules)  and/or a really Thin Oil, it might surprise how well it can work... 

signed....BUBBIE

TKS Ron..... good response Below...

It's the engine oil pump that moves the oil through the cooling process, note there are two sizes of oil pumps, gotta run, pix and more info later.

I agree. Liquid and oil cooled have different pumps. As you pointed out it would need to be on the feed side, end of line jetted for restriction as a limiter so overall psi is maintained and the relief valve can do it's job. This will also slow the flow rate fill the galleys so the oil can conduct heat from more surface contact with oil. Fast flowing half filled galleys , oil won't conduct much.  Oil cooled version pump will be bigger, more output for this extra required task, yet plenty left for normal engine requirements. Mostly speculation on my part.

Ron

[Templer]

Would like to the the "duel spray" injectors

[FSG]

[FSG]

[FSG]

The SPROCKET SHAFT SPACER looks to be thicker and not tapered at the end(s) than that used in previous years




and the inside of the rotor where the spacer contacts is not undercut like previous years

so with the stronger magnets and increased output one would hope that stripped rotor splines are confined to history




I'm interested in getting a closer look at the outside of the rotor

[harleytuner]

Good pictures, good info thanks.  I bet they saved $.07 a unit by only having 3 screw holding the stator

[prodrag1320]

Can anybody post up the part numbers for the cylinder heads? My local dealer said he does not have any part numbers for it yet. I need to get a set to put on the flowbench.

ill check with a dealer buddy,he already sent me pics of the heads.ports,rockers,ect

[SP33DY]

ill check with a dealer buddy,he already sent me pics of the heads.ports,rockers,ect

Thank-you! I'm sure I'm not the only one here who needs to investigate the new heads!

[prodrag1320]

water cooled 107" front 16500508,rear 16500498 (weird sounding #`s,but that's what he gave me)

[SP33DY]

Thank-you for the part numbers. I'll get some ordered.

In the last couple of years they have been putting new parts in a different format than what we're used to.

[Ohio HD]

HD first used the oil cooled heads on the XR1200. I owned one and was a member of an XR1200 forum. One of the members left his bike at Zippers as a test mule and they were very impressed with how effective cooling the heads with oil was. I realize this is a different animal but just pointing out it can be effective.

Better than nothing.

Suzuki used oil cooling very effectively in the mid 2000's on naked bikes. I totally agree, it's better than nothing.     

[rbabos]

HD first used the oil cooled heads on the XR1200. I owned one and was a member of an XR1200 forum. One of the members left his bike at Zippers as a test mule and they were very impressed with how effective cooling the heads with oil was. I realize this is a different animal but just pointing out it can be effective.

Better than nothing.

Suzuki used oil cooling very effectively in the mid 2000's on naked bikes. I totally agree, it's better than nothing.     

It's a good method. Just wish they had have (internally) run the system rather then all that "Potty mouth" hanging all over the place for plumbing.
Ron

[04 SE Deuce]

Suzuki used oil cooling very effectively in the mid 2000's on naked bikes. I totally agree, it's better than nothing.     

I can remember it back in 1985 on the first GSXR's.

[Piston Broke]

I'm interested in getting a closer look at the outside of the rotor

Does lightening it in that way make any benefit? Or is it for cooling?

[Ohio HD]

Suzuki used oil cooling very effectively in the mid 2000's on naked bikes. I totally agree, it's better than nothing.     

I can remember it back in 1985 on the first GSXR's.

Could very well be, I just know about the mid 2000's as a buddy had one.

[jbexeter]

It's a good method. Just wish they had have (internally) run the system rather then all that "Potty mouth" hanging all over the place for plumbing.
Ron

External oil lines (Ok, they were for lube to the top end, not cooling to the top end) were a very common feature of many british bikes, usually done with banjo bolts and copper washers which you had to take off and re-anneal now and again, and were often a source of leaks (also dodgy pipes that did not have a strain relief loop in them) until everyone with a clue started to use dowty (hydraulic) washers with them and suddenly all the problems and leaks went away.

Vincent was known as the plumbers nightmare because of all the external lines.

I'll agree that in this day of CNC machining it should be trivial to run internal oilways, but I don't see any reason for the external ones to be a source of problems, even when the engines get ten plus years old.

I (now) fondly remember making a (return) night trip from just south of Manchester back down to the south west on the old BSA A10 in the very early 80's and noticing a loss of power...

Pulled over to the side and the bimbo on the back (the reason I rode up there, to collect her at the end of term) asked why we were stopping, said something is wrong, losing power, oh she says, is that why my right foot has been hot and slippery for the past 10 minutes........

BSA used to make oilways by drilling channels that intersected at the end, and then plugging them externally at the intersects, and one of these plugs came out and dumped the oil over the pillion peg until suddenly the bag is dry, couldn't see any of that at night of course....

When I upgraded to my first HD (a shovel) I was instantly suspicious of the oil lines, but hand on heart I cannot recall a single weep / drop / leak of any kind ever, hell the twinkie has an external oil bag.... it was the japs that made the wet sump work invisibly well... had guzzis and dukes and a load of other wet sump bikes, and all of them could and did ocassionaly puke a *very* heavy breather mist over everything... never ever had a jap bike do that.

[Tynker]

HD first used the oil cooled heads on the XR1200. I owned one and was a member of an XR1200 forum. One of the members left his bike at Zippers as a test mule and they were very impressed with how effective cooling the heads with oil was. I realize this is a different animal but just pointing out it can be effective.

Better than nothing.

Suzuki used oil cooling very effectively in the mid 2000's on naked bikes. I totally agree, it's better than nothing.     

Victory and Yamaha's 113 cid engines all have had oil cooling for years, and they work very well..

[smokedyvr]

Welcome to the 8 ball.....craeight head....or whatever. Hopefully it does better than the Twin A did! God I love my EVO's! 

[Billy]

Check out part number for item 11.

Non adjustable pushrods or rocker arms

http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%c2%ae/FLHR_1FBC_ROAD_KING_(2017)/ROCKER_ARM_ASSEMBLY_AND_PUSHRODS/1FBC%2f%2f2017/FLHR_1FBC_ROAD_KING_(2017)%2f%2fROCKER_ARM_ASSEMBLY_AND

[twincamzz]

So yesterday I went n took a test ride on one of these new Milwaukee Eight 107s. Pretty impressed. Before the ride I was talking to the salesguy & asked if these motors are still roller bearing at crankshaft, or did HD revert to the tapered bearing set up. He told me these were so new that he did not know. So I asked if they had a service manual that we could look at to see & he said they didn't have any manuals yet...60 or so M8s, but no service manuals. lol.

* I tried the link shown at very first post & could never get it fully work. Can anyone tell me, roller bearings or did HD revert to the good old tapered timken bearings at crank ?

[glens]

Roller

[twincamzz]

Roller

Thanks for the information !

[joe_lyons]

".050" fiber head gasket. Piston sits .010" shallow of cylinder. 88.5cc chambers."

Not my pics or comment but a friend took one apart.

[BUBBIE]

 

First Above picture:

Looks like they took care of the Rocker Shaft Noise... 

signed....BUBBIE

[Piston Broke]

Looks like we are set up for a triple spark plug head upgrades!

I'm sorry, I've not been paying attention. Is it dual spark with one right in the middle? Room for one more at the other end?

[harleytuner]

CCP at 240+ and spark knock is ridiculous.  Way to go HD

[joe_lyons]

CCP at 240+ and spark knock is ridiculous.  Way to go HD

Cam miss timed?

[Nastytls]

CCP at 240+ and spark knock is ridiculous.  Way to go HD

Can you elaborate? Are you seeing this on a bike on your dyno? Are these bikes at 240ccp from the factory?

[BUBBIE]

CCP at 240+ and spark knock is ridiculous.  Way to go HD

Cam miss timed?

Gotta have the Intake Really OFF n Closing Early for 240...   

signed....BUBBIE

[FSG]

Not my pics or comment but a friend took one apart.

can you ask friend what his thoughts are regarding the ends of the rocker arms being bearing/thrust surfaces and perhaps the recess in the end is for oil

[FSG]

Looks like we are set up for a triple spark plug head upgrades!

I'm sorry, I've not been paying attention. Is it dual spark with one right in the middle? Room for one more at the other end?

there are two plugs with the ACR in the middle, tank needs to be removed to gain access to the right side plug

[rich1]

Went to the dealer to see one in the flesh. Couple of things stuck out. The opening in the air box is enormous. If it has a decent sized filter probably nothing to gain in changing it. Lifter blocks off set from each other a fair amount. Good job on plumbing the oil lines for the heads. Nothing like that mess of lines that was on the XR. I have not seen this mentioned but one of the techs said there is a fan behind the oil cooler. The stock mufflers are pretty loud compared to earlier models. When you open it up they really talk. Salesman started one up and revved the hell out of it. If I were the sales manager I would have jumped his ass about doing that.

[FSG]

I have not seen this mentioned but one of the techs said there is a fan behind the oil cooler.

[harleytuner]

CCP at 240+ and spark knock is ridiculous.  Way to go HD

Can you elaborate? Are you seeing this on a bike on your dyno? Are these bikes at 240ccp from the factory?

I got the info  Steve Cole.  He has 2 2017's.  He did some data logging and sent me the files. Temps are high and spark knock is abundant on a 78* day in California.  He did a CCP on one and it was 240.  He is able to write to  ECM so calibrations are coming. 

The stock calibrations are torque managed (not VE) so a switch is needed in the code so we can tune VE tables.

[joe_lyons]

Wonder if it's the same knock strategy that the 617 Cal's had.  240ccp is crazy and confusing with 88.5 cc heads.

[rbabos]

Wonder if it's the same knock strategy that the 617 Cal's had.  240ccp is crazy and confusing with 88.5 cc heads.

240, if factual is not cool, no pun intended,  for a street bike. Since nobody asked, I will. How is the clearance for the one intake and one exhaust accomplished on a common rocker so we can stop speculating on that one?
Ron

[harleytuner]

Wonder if it's the same knock strategy that the 617 Cal's had.  240ccp is crazy and confusing with 88.5 cc heads.

These have actual knock sensors and not ion sensing right?

[rbabos]

Wonder if it's the same knock strategy that the 617 Cal's had.  240ccp is crazy and confusing with 88.5 cc heads.

These have actual knock sensors and not ion sensing right?

Yes
Ron

[FSG]

Wonder if it's the same knock strategy that the 617 Cal's had.  240ccp is crazy and confusing with 88.5 cc heads.

These have actual knock sensors and not ion sensing right?

[joe_lyons]

Idk if it was the ion sense issue with the 617 cals but just the values used.

[BUBBIE]

 

That is One Hell of a Air PUMP @ 240 lbs.... and Don and I were concerned about 210/215 at Lower elevations on mine

My 195 @ 4400 foot elevation Leaves a Lot on the Table in comparison to that 240 lbs....

Running here, would be about 212.0 at my elevation...

Wonder how the Crank n Rods will take that Pressure? Let alone the Crappy Gas n Tune... AND, OH, that's right, tune ONLY by HD...

Man, that ought to be Fun... 

signed....BUBBIE

[-deuced-]

bit surprised nobody's had a meltdown about the plastic intake manifold

[rich1]

bit surprised nobody's had a meltdown about the plastic intake manifold

Probably because they have been used on cars for many years with no issue. I would not give it a second thought.

[Zedseven]

Some good detail contained in this vid. For those who haven't seen it before
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bAsWcrj_Y5c

[-deuced-]

Good vid  Is that a date on the prototype heads, 6-6-14?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

1:45 in.... the 3D printed prototype had old style rocker towers.

[FSG]

not quite old style, more not quite finished new style

[-deuced-]

approx 11:30, counterbalancer gear looks just like the tranny anti-backlash gear. I was expecting a bigger lump of counterbalancer weight.

[jsachs1]

Nice pics.
Haven't had a set of the heads in my hands, I need to ask: Are there any means of adjusting valve installed height from 1 valve to the other ? How close are the installed heights to 1 another ?
John

[Rockout Rocker Products]

not quite old style, more not quite finished new style

  It used the cross bolts through the notched shafts method.

I can tell you for certain that HD knew for some time now my findings on what actually causes the top end tapping. Maybe that change was for a specific reason?

[rbabos]

not quite old style, more not quite finished new style

  It used the cross bolts through the notched shafts method.

I can tell you for certain that HD knew for some time now what actually causes the top end tapping. Maybe that change was for a specific reason?

They saw your product worked, as like many other ideas that came along. They see aftermarket success then come up with their own idea, if for no other reason to save embarrassment on their part. I think you follow me.
Ron

[wfolarry]

Have you guys ever been on a tour of the motor factory? See what the race teams have done with that XR 750 years ago?
In my 40+ years of working on these bikes I can tell you from experience that a lot of ideas that you think are the latest & greatest have been tested & evaluated from a few different perspectives. I've got rocked boxes here from the 80's that have set screws in them to lock the shafts. I seen other guys use shoulder bolts. Different way around the barn. I like what you came up with but its not a revelation.
This new motor has a lot of things going for it that you guys are missing. Look a little closer & forget about what's past. Any good company evaluates everything when they design/improve on something.

[Admiral Akbar]

Have you guys ever been on a tour of the motor factory? See what the race teams have done with that XR 750 years ago?
In my 40+ years of working on these bikes I can tell you from experience that a lot of ideas that you think are the latest & greatest have been tested & evaluated from a few different perspectives. I've got rocked boxes here from the 80's that have set screws in them to lock the shafts. I seen other guys use shoulder bolts. Different way around the barn. I like what you came up with but its not a revelation.
This new motor has a lot of things going for it that you guys are missing. Look a little closer & forget about what's past. Any good company evaluates everything when they design/improve on something.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Have you guys ever been on a tour of the motor factory? See what the race teams have done with that XR 750 years ago?
In my 40+ years of working on these bikes I can tell you from experience that a lot of ideas that you think are the latest & greatest have been tested & evaluated from a few different perspectives. I've got rocked boxes here from the 80's that have set screws in them to lock the shafts. I seen other guys use shoulder bolts. Different way around the barn. I like what you came up with but its not a revelation.
This new motor has a lot of things going for it that you guys are missing. Look a little closer & forget about what's past. Any good company evaluates everything when they design/improve on something.

Fair enough, I'll just leave it with what's public knowledge...

At some point between prototype and final product, for some reason HD decided to change the rocker shaft restraint system to one that prevents it from rocking back & forth.

HD also claims the new motor is mechanically quieter than the Twin Cam.

[FSG]

At some point between prototype and final product, for some reason HD decided to change the rocker shaft restraint system to one that prevents it from rocking back & forth.

No, the prototype has a shaft restraint system but the final product has a simpler one.

[rbabos]

At some point between prototype and final product, for some reason HD decided to change the rocker shaft restraint system to one that prevents it from rocking back & forth.

No, the prototype has a shaft restraint system but the final product has a simpler one.

Or Fred wasn't talking to Charley and it was found the original concept wouldn't fit under the rocker covers.
Ron

[Piston Broke]

rocked boxes here from the 80's that have set screws in them to lock the shafts.

What did they do ... grind a small flat or drill a dent in the rocker arm, and loctite in a set screw through the top of the butress that holds them?

Not a lot of metal there.

[rbabos]

rocked boxes here from the 80's that have set screws in them to lock the shafts.

What did they do ... grind a small flat or drill a dent in the rocker arm, and loctite in a set screw through the top of the butress that holds them?

Not a lot of metal there.

It's also ass backwards to the shaft load. You'd want to lock from the bottom and force the shaft upward so all of the load bearing surface is used and no extra pressure on the screw in operation. Not the smaller screw contact area, as would be the case if the screw was on the top.
Ron

[Durwood]

Lot's of good pics and info

   

[Piston Broke]

It's also ass backwards to the shaft load. You'd want to lock from the bottom and force the shaft upward

Do you think it's worth doing that way instead of with these bushes?

I was thinking you would put a flat or dimple on the shaft and hold it that way, not by pressure to the cover.

I only have some XR1200 rocker covers at hand. I don't think you could do it on the rocker arm side due to the closeness of the locating bolt, it'd have to be on the valve side only.

[jbexeter]

if they wanted to lock the shaft all you need is splines and clamp, can't go wrong and so on, probably costs an extra $5 in machining for each spline and cap set so 4 shafts 2 ends each $40 extra per motor.

50 bucks here, 50 bucks there, before you know it youve added 500 bucks to the motor build costs, and it is exactly in these areas that most of modern engineering design goes, what's the cheapest way to do x, not what's the best way.

I've seen worse, my old sohc 750 honda they just line bored the heads and then white metalled that and stuck the camshaft in, when it went south you bought a whole new head as well as a cam....

[rbabos]

It's also ass backwards to the shaft load. You'd want to lock from the bottom and force the shaft upward

Do you think it's worth doing that way instead of with these bushes?

I was thinking you would put a flat or dimple on the shaft and hold it that way, not by pressure to the cover.

I only have some XR1200 rocker covers at hand. I don't think you could do it on the rocker arm side due to the closeness of the locating bolt, it'd have to be on the valve side only.

The goal is to offer resistance to rotation on the shaft within the bosses, which occurs when the engine gets hot and the aluminum hole expands more then the shaft. This extra clearance allows the shaft to rotate back an forth from the rockers driving it, slapping the notch of the shaft against the bolt shoulder in the case of the TC. Several ways to stop this but it seems using the RockerLockers seems effective and no extra bs involved.

Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

if they wanted to lock the shaft all you need is splines and clamp, can't go wrong and so on, probably costs an extra $5 in machining for each spline and cap set so 4 shafts 2 ends each $40 extra per motor.

50 bucks here, 50 bucks there, before you know it youve added 500 bucks to the motor build costs, and it is exactly in these areas that most of modern engineering design goes, what's the cheapest way to do x, not what's the best way.

I've seen worse, my old sohc 750 honda they just line bored the heads and then white metalled that and stuck the camshaft in, when it went south you bought a whole new head as well as a cam....

The SOHC CB750s used cam/rocker towers.  Other models used heads (eg CB500F, CB360) Honda used base metal. Nothing special.

[rbabos]

if they wanted to lock the shaft all you need is splines and clamp, can't go wrong and so on, probably costs an extra $5 in machining for each spline and cap set so 4 shafts 2 ends each $40 extra per motor.

50 bucks here, 50 bucks there, before you know it youve added 500 bucks to the motor build costs, and it is exactly in these areas that most of modern engineering design goes, what's the cheapest way to do x, not what's the best way.

I've seen worse, my old sohc 750 honda they just line bored the heads and then white metalled that and stuck the camshaft in, when it went south you bought a whole new head as well as a cam....

The SOHC CB750s used cam/rocker towers.  Other models used heads (eg CB500F, CB360) Honda used base metal. Nothing special.

Correct.
Ron

[Durwood]

if they wanted to lock the shaft all you need is splines and clamp, can't go wrong and so on, probably costs an extra $5 in machining for each spline and cap set so 4 shafts 2 ends each $40 extra per motor.

50 bucks here, 50 bucks there, before you know it youve added 500 bucks to the motor build costs, and it is exactly in these areas that most of modern engineering design goes, what's the cheapest way to do x, not what's the best way.

I've seen worse, my old sohc 750 honda they just line bored the heads and then white metalled that and stuck the camshaft in, when it went south you bought a whole new head as well as a cam....

The SOHC CB750s used cam/rocker towers.  Other models used heads (eg CB500F, CB360) Honda used base metal. Nothing special.

I was wondering how long it would take you to come out and comment on this new engine...

[jbexeter]

The SOHC CB750s used cam/rocker towers.

You know, my first reaction was "no it bloody didn't" and then I thought hang on boy, been very nearly 40 years since you owned one and rebuilt it, go back and check before you shoot your mouth off, and you are of course correct, it did have towers, well it did when I bought it, and until you did what I did, which was fit a 900cc "kit" with a remanufactured head which had the towers welded to the head, worked great until the pirhana permitted 13,000 rpm eventually ate it up.

Thanks to you both for correcting me.

[PoorUB]

I've seen worse, my old sohc 750 honda they just line bored the heads and then white metalled that and stuck the camshaft in, when it went south you bought a whole new head as well as a cam....

Pretty sure you 750 Honda was just machined aluminum with no other treatment. Just bore the aluminum out and slap in the cam.

Typical construction of an over head cam engine, pretty much all OHC motorcycle engine are that way and come to think of it, any OHC automobile engine is too, so there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of engines on the road with similar design that run for 100,000 miles or more with no issues.

[fattmann101]

do the jugs still have an iron liner? cant tell from the cut a way  pic

[Xyzzy]

do the jugs still have an iron liner? cant tell from the cut a way  pic

"The new cylinders are constructed with cast iron linings."

[FSG]

Note my comment over a year ago ..   

"The SPROCKET SHAFT SPACER looks to be thicker and not tapered at the end(s) than that used in previous years"

The SPROCKET SHAFT SPACER looks to be thicker and not tapered at the end(s) than that used in previous years




and the inside of the rotor where the spacer contacts is not undercut like previous years

so with the stronger magnets and increased output one would hope that stripped rotor splines are confined to history




I'm interested in getting a closer look at the outside of the rotor