I've gathered all the parts...got the heads and bottom end out to shops for loving on.
So here is the plan:
Newest version 4 5/8" S&S flywheels put in a set of SE Pro crankcases, bored out to 4.125 bore, with a Timkens conversion, S&S piston jets, with Torrington cam bearings...being done by Kirby @ Vee-Twin Racing. The pistons will be S&S (Wiseco) -1.6 flat tops...with compression set @ 11.32:1 with them. I've been thinking about a set of domed CP pistons and running a little higher compression...but I'm going to try these flat tops first.
I'm going to try the 58* intake closing Cyclerama .650 lift gear drive cams first...hopefully they will perform as well as Wes Brown @ Cyclerama said they would. Wes said he designed these cams specifically for a 124" motor so they will produce early torque and let it carry that torque thru the whole rpm band, while building high horsepower along with it. He said he has not put them in a 124" motor yet with 11.00:1 compression, along with proper headwork...that has not make 150/150. Oh...by the way...wfolarry is doing another set of 110" heads for me again...this time with a little different twist!
I'll be also using the following parts:
SE camplate
Dan Thayer 3 stage oil pump
newest version Gaterman 1023 lifters
Smith Brothers custom made adjustable pushrods
SE forged rocker arm support...drilled out oil returns to .125
HD metal breather valves
S&S 1.625 roller rockers and shafts
S&S gears for the cams
S&S 66mm T/Hog with 6.2 HPI injectors that will pull air thru an Exotx extended Superfilter
Boarzilla headpipe with a 5" Supertrapp muffler with an open end cap and 20 disc's for a start...we will see how that does
All the internal bolts through out the motor are all ARP hardware
I'll have Strokerjlk (Jim Kennedy) tune it for me
That's the plan so far
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
I've gathered all the parts...got the heads and bottom end out to shops for loving on.
So here is the plan:
Newest version 4 5/8" S&S flywheels put in a set of SE Pro crankcases, bored out to 4.125 bore, with a Timkens conversion, S&S piston jets, with Torrington cam bearings...being done by Kirby @ Vee-Twin Racing. The pistons will be S&S (Wiseco) -1.6 flat tops...with compression set @ 11.32:1 with them. I've been thinking about a set of domed CP pistons and running a little higher compression...but I'm going to try these flat tops first.
I'm going to try the 58* intake closing Cyclerama .650 lift gear drive cams first...hopefully they will perform as well as Wes Brown @ Cyclerama said they would. Wes said he designed these cams specifically for a 124" motor so they will produce early torque and let it carry that torque thru the whole rpm band, while building high horsepower along with it. He said he has not put them in a 124" motor yet with 11.00:1 compression, along with proper headwork...that has not make 150/150. Oh...by the way...wfolarry is doing another set of 110" heads for me again...this time with a little different twist!
I'll be also using the following parts:
SE camplate
Dan Thayer 3 stage oil pump
newest version Gaterman 1023 lifters
Smith Brothers custom made adjustable pushrods
SE forged rocker arm support...drilled out oil returns to .125
HD metal breather valves
S&S 1.625 roller rockers and shafts
S&S gears for the cams
S&S 66mm T/Hog with 6.2 HPI injectors that will pull air thru an Exotx extended Superfilter
Boarzilla headpipe with a 5" Supertrapp muffler with an open end cap and 20 disc's for a start...we will see how that does
All the internal bolts through out the motor are all ARP hardware
I'll have Strokerjlk (Jim Kennedy) tune it for me
That's the plan so far
Sounds really good Ray. I may need to buy that 117 from you.... I have a knock going on.
:pop:
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 07, 2013, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
I've gathered all the parts...got the heads and bottom end out to shops for loving on.
So here is the plan:
Newest version 4 5/8" S&S flywheels put in a set of SE Pro crankcases, bored out to 4.125 bore, with a Timkens conversion, S&S piston jets, with Torrington cam bearings...being done by Kirby @ Vee-Twin Racing. The pistons will be S&S (Wiseco) -1.6 flat tops...with compression set @ 11.32:1 with them. I've been thinking about a set of domed CP pistons and running a little higher compression...but I'm going to try these flat tops first.
I'm going to try the 58* intake closing Cyclerama .650 lift gear drive cams first...hopefully they will perform as well as Wes Brown @ Cyclerama said they would. Wes said he designed these cams specifically for a 124" motor so they will produce early torque and let it carry that torque thru the whole rpm band, while building high horsepower along with it. He said he has not put them in a 124" motor yet with 11.00:1 compression, along with proper headwork...that has not make 150/150. Oh...by the way...wfolarry is doing another set of 110" heads for me again...this time with a little different twist!
I'll be also using the following parts:
SE camplate
Dan Thayer 3 stage oil pump
newest version Gaterman 1023 lifters
Smith Brothers custom made adjustable pushrods
SE forged rocker arm support...drilled out oil returns to .125
HD metal breather valves
S&S 1.625 roller rockers and shafts
S&S gears for the cams
S&S 66mm T/Hog with 6.2 HPI injectors that will pull air thru an Exotx extended Superfilter
Boarzilla headpipe with a 5" Supertrapp muffler with an open end cap and 20 disc's for a start...we will see how that does
All the internal bolts through out the motor are all ARP hardware
I'll have Strokerjlk (Jim Kennedy) tune it for me
That's the plan so far
Sounds really good Ray. I may need to buy that 117 from you.... I have a knock going on.
Man, I was hoping for that 117 myself, the Shark needs some more teeth :hyst:
Looks like a great plan Ray :up:
wow that's going to be a monster cant wait to see finished product... Jim has to be excited to tune a bike like that ...gotta sound wicked
That's an impressive list Ray :up: Gonna need a stout clutch......Bandit I assume?
John...I'm going to run my current clutch setup...I really like it a lot.
Primo Pro Clutch with the Primo TPP and their gold spring.
No complaints in that department.
New S&S flywheels, parent metal on the big end?? Should be interesting to see if they hold up, are you using the full width wrist pin end?
S&S said they haven't had a problem with this newer crank design. I'm having Kirby weld it...but S&S said it wasn't needed. My guy @ S&S said out of the box they will easily handle in excess of 200 hp. :nix:
I talked to John @ Darkhorse about the newest version S&S flywheels. He said it was a quality built piece that needed very little...if any attention...which said a lot to me. I asked John if I would do any better with him building me an inhouse set of wheels...after I told him the price of what I could get the S&S flywheels for (dealer cost)...he actually told me to get the S&S flywheels and run them...I would be totally satisfied with their product and the end results it produced.
Yes...it is a full size wrist pin.
A list of those ARP hardware parts would be handy. Hint-Hint. :wink:
Nice build. I'm excited to see the outcome.
What tuner/ECM are you using?
Quote from: WI Bob on July 07, 2013, 08:56:10 PM
A list of those ARP hardware parts would be handy. Hint-Hint. :wink:
I'll go out to the barn and get the sizes & amounts needed after I get home from work today and post them.
Merc63...I'll let Strokerjlk tune it with a TTS tuner
Ray, Take a look at the Vulcan billet rocker supports. I just put a set in my 124" and they worked out very well. Nice machined pieces. I beleive they are cheaper than the Se's too
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on July 08, 2013, 03:03:35 AM
Ray, Take a look at the Vulcan billet rocker supports. I just put a set in my 124" and they worked out very well. Nice machined pieces. I beleive they are cheaper than the Se's too
They are nice looking pieces. I tried to order a set of them in a .030 offset last year. They said they were currently out and would be making another batch of them in a few weeks. I never heard back from them and sent them numerous e-mails later on...never got a response back. I gave up on them.
That's odd. I live no more than 10 miles from them. Never and issue.
after "eight" phone calls to them this morning...I finally got someone to answer the phone. Whoever he was...took the time to check, and he said they do have them in stock with a .030 offset. I might just have to order a set.
So you are replacing your 117, or is this for a different bike?
as promised...here are the ARP bolts that I'm using internally inside the engine.
the camplate takes:
4- 1/4"-20 x 1" ARP flange bolts $1.13 a piece
2- Dorman studs for the dowel holes part# 675-086 1/4"-20 to 1/4"-28 x 1-1/2" long stud (red loctited in)...found @ local hardware store
2- 12 point ARP nuts 1/4"-28 for the studs $1.48 a piece
oil pump:
4- 1/4"-20 x 2" socket head bolts for the oil pump (not ARP...but black oxide) $0.12 a piece
rear cam gear:
1- 3/8"-24 x 1-3/4" ARP flange bolt...that I ran a die down it so it is fully threaded $1.95
front cam gear:
1- 5/16"-18 x 3/4" ARP flange bolt $1.17
lower rocker box's to the heads:
4- 5/16"-18 x 1-3/4" ARP flange bolts $1.86 a piece
8- 5/16"-18 x 1-1/4" ARP flange bolts $1.30 a piece
rocker arm supports:
4- 5/16"-18 x 2-1/2" ARP flange bolts for the cam side of the rocker arm supports $2.04 a piece
4- 5/16"-18 x 2-1/2" black oxide socket head bolts for the primary side of the rocker arm supports...with a washer under each of these 4 bolts
bolts are $0.21 a piece
breather valve bolts:
4- 1/4"-20 x 1-1/2" ARP flange bolts $1.60 a piece
I found the best prices on ARP hardware from a website called:
allensfasteners.com
He sells ARP bolts and nuts by individual pieces...at an unbelievable price, with not the usual huge mark up found on ARP items. He also offers chrome & stainless steel hardware and grade 8 too. He stocks and ships most items the same day ordered.
Hope this helps!
Quote from: TA63 on July 08, 2013, 10:13:42 AM
So you are replacing your 117, or is this for a different bike?
it sounds like Durwood is going to make me an offer for it that I can't refuse :hyst:
he wants more teeth for the :sswim: nose
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2013, 04:38:01 PM
S&S said they haven't had a problem with this newer crank design. I'm having Kirby weld it...but S&S said it wasn't needed. My guy @ S&S said out of the box they will easily handle in excess of 200 hp. :nix:
I talked to John @ Darkhorse about the newest version S&S flywheels. He said it was a quality built piece that needed very little...if any attention...which said a lot to me. I asked John if I would do any better with him building me an inhouse set of wheels...after I told him the price of what I could get the S&S flywheels for (dealer cost)...he actually told me to get the S&S flywheels and run them...I would be totally satisfied with their product and the end results it produced.
Yes...it is a full size wrist pin.
My S&S 4 5/8" wheels rolled less than .001 out of the box
Kirby hasn't told me any spec's yet...but I'm hoping to see the same on mine.
INDEPEDENT1 posted he recently had a set of S&S 4 5/8" flywheels that he checked the run out on...but he couldn't get a reading on them...basically perfect I guess.
I can only hope :wink:
I chuckled when TMan was in his assembly room and he put my new S&S wheels on his V block after dropping off my stuff for my 124" bottom end and his comment was " Damn!! A near perfect set of new wheels!! " :teeth:
Quote from: FLTR2008TRIKE on July 08, 2013, 03:33:17 PM
I chuckled when TMan was in his assembly room and he put my new S&S wheels on his V block after dropping off my stuff for my 124" bottom end and his comment was " Damn!! A near perfect set of new wheels!! " :teeth:
:up:
that will make a grown man smile! :wink:
I was re-reading your first post and thought I would tell you that TMan pressure tested my S&S piston oilers before installing them and both opened @ 11lbs of pressure. Thought you might want to know
True story about the wheels and run-out. I believe Feuling stocks complete ARP fastener kits also just FYI. I also recently check the wheels on a 120R that were just a RCH under .001.
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on July 08, 2013, 06:55:02 PM
True story about the wheels and run-out. I believe Feuling stocks complete ARP fastener kits also just FYI. I also recently check the wheels on a 120R that were just a RCH under .001.
did you check the price on the Fueling ARP kit :dgust:
I got all the ARP bolts for less than $50.00
It's been a while since I've checked but IIRC you paid about 10% or less of their price. :up:
Fueling ARP engine kit...which did include cylinder studs and heads bolts lists for $699.00 :dgust:
ouch!
Those price differences are unreal.
:agree:
I found there is a huge mark up on ARP fasteners when you go thru some after market motorcycle parts suppliers.
I re-searched it...and found the fastener store I located sold them @ way less than other places. He sells them as a single bolt/nut at a time. Order as many or few as you want. He offers discount prices when ordering some things in bulk.
He charges $6.95 flat shipping on orders mailed in the good ole USA.
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q (http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q)
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
:agree:
I found there is a huge mark up on ARP fasteners when you go thru some after market motorcycle parts suppliers.
I re-searched it...and found the fastener store I located sold them @ way less than other places. He sells them as a single bolt/nut at a time. Order as many or few as you want. He offers discount prices when ordering some things in bulb.
He charges $6.95 flat shipping on orders mailed in the good ole USA.
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q (http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q)
good connection....thanks
the bottom end is done and on it's way headed home. It had .0005 run out. :smile:
Very nice. Can't wait to see this beast put together.
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2013, 05:17:46 PM
the bottom end is done and on it's way headed home. It had .0005 run out. :smile:
Hey Ray old buddy! I think I'm gonna need a lower end.... :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 10:34:16 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2013, 05:17:46 PM
the bottom end is done and on it's way headed home. It had .0005 run out. :smile:
Hey Ray old buddy! I think I'm gonna need a lower end.... :teeth:
it ain't funny...but you made me smile :smiled:
That WILL do TILL the 131ci or next couple of years Ill bet
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 10:34:16 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2013, 05:17:46 PM
the bottom end is done and on it's way headed home. It had .0005 run out. :smile:
Hey Ray old buddy! I think I'm gonna need a lower end.... :teeth:
sorry to hear that. The gold rush gave it away huh?
What's the plan now...going to go see Rebecca...or build one yourself?
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2013, 02:01:50 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 10:34:16 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2013, 05:17:46 PM
the bottom end is done and on it's way headed home. It had .0005 run out. :smile:
Hey Ray old buddy! I think I'm gonna need a lower end.... :teeth:
sorry to hear that. The gold rush gave it away huh?
What's the plan now...going to go see Rebecca...or build one yourself?
Well, if I could get a good condition crank to just fix this one, I would do that for short term. Cause a stock crank will fail again, actually wrist pin bushings I should say. I am not easy on bikes, and if it were closer to winter, I'd say hell with it, and pull my motor and start on it. But since it's only the 2nd week of July, and my son and I were going to take a bike trip in September, well, I gotta get something done so we have bikes. With my job and all of the travel, I'd never get one built in time. Last I spoke to Rebecca, she said about 30 days to get a 120r, but sometimes it's less.
Will think about this tonight and tomorrow, and figure out which way to go. Going for a ride, I think better that way. :wink:
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
I don't know about a 113...but a slightly used 117 might come up for sale soon :potstir:
:doh: I believe I meant 117.... :oops:
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
I need motor, 58mm TB, AC backing plate for TB. I'll run my Fatcat till I decide to do cam change, head work, and yes, at that time springs, lifters, and push rods. About $5,200, plus a tune.
I already have clutch cause I'm so hard on things...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 04:33:28 PM
:doh: I believe I meant 117.... :oops:
220, 221, what ever it takes....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
The one Jim just uploaded today. Nice looking results, minimum invested in motor changes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
The one Jim just uploaded today. Nice looking results, minimum invested in motor changes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 05:40:26 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
I need motor, 58mm TB, AC backing plate for TB. I'll run my Fatcat till I decide to do cam change, head work, and yes, at that time springs, lifters, and push rods. About $5,200, plus a tune.
I already have clutch cause I'm so hard on things...
the 117"er already has head work, 58mm t/body, springs, lifters, p/rods, and it comes already tuned...for less than $5200.00 :potstir:
just kidding Brian
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2013, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 05:40:26 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2013, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on July 13, 2013, 02:08:02 PM
"What's the plan now..."
Ummm Ray, I think he might be fishing for a slightly used badass 113...? :nix:
:fish:
I tell you, that 120r that Jim just tuned, I really like that dyno chart, and the numbers. I may just buy a 120r, ride it till early next year, and change the cam to that 660SM, I have a set of MVA heads that I can take care of before hand, and it's a simple weekend swap out. Then have Jim do that again...
He's tuned a few...are you referring to a stock one that he did? How much extra crap do you have to buy to stuff one in? Are we talking 8 grand or so? Do valve springs need to be swapped out initially or can they be run as is?
I need motor, 58mm TB, AC backing plate for TB. I'll run my Fatcat till I decide to do cam change, head work, and yes, at that time springs, lifters, and push rods. About $5,200, plus a tune.
I already have clutch cause I'm so hard on things...
the 117"er already has head work, 58mm t/body, springs, lifters, p/rods, and it comes already tuned...for less than $5200.00 :potstir:
just kidding Brian
Start unbolting it Ray, you know I can be there in 45 minutes. :grin:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
figure about four or five hours I can have it sitting on the table :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
figure about four or five hours I can have it sitting on the table :wink:
Give me a price... your tune will fit right in my bike too....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:pop:
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
:agree:
I found there is a huge mark up on ARP fasteners when you go thru some after market motorcycle parts suppliers.
I re-searched it...and found the fastener store I located sold them @ way less than other places. He sells them as a single bolt/nut at a time. Order as many or few as you want. He offers discount prices when ordering some things in bulk.
He charges $6.95 flat shipping on orders mailed in the good ole USA.
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q (http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q)
why not just buy right from ARP?? thats what I do
Where did you find the best price on the S&S crank?
I have a good friend that owns a local indy shop...I paid dealer costs.
So I have to ask... What are you expecting the 124" to do that the 117" doesn't?
K.
:nix:
I'll see. My 117"er is a very nice motor...it exceeded my expectations. If it would have made 125/125 I would have been happy. This 124 is basically using the same motor internal parts as the 117"er...with the exception of a longer stroke crank and a little bit bigger lift set of cams. I think the heads that wfoarry does for me this time will make the difference...if there is one. I'm sure that Larry will blow me away with what he sends me back. Maybe this one will make the 140 SAE hp club for Max :hyst:
But who knows...I might be going backwards...but at least I'll have fun doing it.
I made a little progress today...the 117"er is out...and a new heart is in. :unsure:
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
So much for waiting for winter!!!
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2013, 03:31:51 PM
I made a little progress today...the 117"er is out...and a new heart is in. :unsure:
[attach=0]
:up: Coool! Make some motor sounds.... :chop:
how bout
potato, potato, potato...best I can do right now :hyst:
I bet that 124 will be more like, POTATO, POTATO, POTATO :up:
I'd go really big and dumb on this one.Make the lil 124 squirm.Two big builds in less than a year,might as well go BIG DUMB,BIG DUMB,BIG DUMB.
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2013, 03:31:51 PM
I made a little progress today...the 117"er is out...and a new heart is in. :unsure:
[attach=0]
NO cents .....From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No cents ,or 8 up ....a term used to describe a Harley rider addicted to "wood" erecting v-twin Harley Davidson performance
must be something in the air. i did a little cam swap on mine today........Like Black Diamond said .....having Ray around makes us look sane . :hyst: :slap:
Hurry up and get this build done, I wanna see the details of your 131" build.
Quote from: smokein on July 17, 2013, 09:28:33 PM
Hurry up and get this build done, I wanna see the details of your 131" build.
:teeth:
OUCH...got Jim slapping me on the back of the head...and Jam65 giving me a big dumb...and a 131 soon to be in the works. :scratch:
:wtf: I guess everyone is saying I shouldn't of found the keys to the tool box. :oops:
You do know it's riding season, right?
Let me know where to ship the blower :hyst:
There ya go Ray, make the next upgrade a Pro charger :potstir: :fish:
BTW, I like the natural finish on them cases :up:
QuoteOUCH...got Jim slapping me on the back of the head.
i just like looking at that slapping whatsyamacallit
I've got another bike to ride...my 03 Low rider. I'm not going to go without a bike to ride...I always have a back up plan.
Do the S/E cases come like that or did you have to strip them?
I stripped them and the 110" heads...and I'm using all black cylinders with no high lighted fins.
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 08:19:43 AM
I stripped them and the 110" heads...and I'm using all black cylinders with no high lighted fins.
Kick Azz! I like... :up:
Will look way cool on that Duracell
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 07:45:07 AM
I've got another bike to ride...my 03 Low rider. I'm not going to go without a bike to ride...I always have a back up plan.
That's my problem... I need one more bike, one less wife, and deeper pockets! :doh:
K.
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 18, 2013, 08:23:05 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 08:19:43 AM
I stripped them and the 110" heads...and I'm using all black cylinders with no high lighted fins.
Kick Azz! I like... :up:
Will look way cool on that Duracell with an Energizer for a engine :hyst:
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 17, 2013, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2013, 03:31:51 PM
I made a little progress today...the 117"er is out...and a new heart is in. :unsure:
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NO cents .....From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No cents ,or 8 up ....a term used to describe a Harley rider addicted to "wood" erecting v-twin Harley Davidson performance
must be something in the air. i did a little cam swap on mine today........Like Black Diamond said .....having Ray around makes us look sane . :hyst: :slap:
A little cam swap? do tell :pop:
Quote from: BVHOG on July 18, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 17, 2013, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2013, 03:31:51 PM
I made a little progress today...the 117"er is out...and a new heart is in. :unsure:
[attach=0]
NO cents .....From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No cents ,or 8 up ....a term used to describe a Harley rider addicted to "wood" erecting v-twin Harley Davidson performance
must be something in the air. i did a little cam swap on mine today........Like Black Diamond said .....having Ray around makes us look sane . :hyst: :slap:
A little cam swap? do tell :pop:
Bet we see a sheet today :pop:
what sticks did Jim go to?
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 18, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 07:45:07 AM
I've got another bike to ride...my 03 Low rider. I'm not going to go without a bike to ride...I always have a back up plan.
That's my problem... I need one more bike, one less wife, and deeper pockets! :doh:
K.
LOL!!! :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
what sticks did Jim go to?
RX 267
They suck in my motor . Gave up on the tune @ 127 hp
Pool and vortex time. It's too fricking hot
Ray,your thread should of stated "I'll let the tools out of the bag".
pistons are in and the black jugs are on. pistons are 2-1/2 thousands in the hole.
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Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
pistons are in and the black jugs are on. pistons are a 2-1/2 thousands in the hole.
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That looks great! :up:
Wish that were mine... :wink:
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 18, 2013, 06:22:24 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
pistons are in and the black jugs are on. pistons are a 2-1/2 thousands in the hole.
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That looks great! :up:
Wish that were mine... :wink:
:agree:
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 18, 2013, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
what sticks did Jim go to?
RX 267
They suck in my motor . Gave up on the tune @ 127 hp
Pool and vortex time. It's too fricking hot
I'd be curious to see what the stock 266e would do in your 120 with those 12:1 pistons. I know you've thought about it. No reason it shouldn't make 140+. Have a set laying around?
Quote from: vdop on July 18, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 18, 2013, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
what sticks did Jim go to?
RX 267
They suck in my motor . Gave up on the tune @ 127 hp
Pool and vortex time. It's too fricking hot
I'd be curious to see what the stock 266e would do in your 120 with those 12:1 pistons. I know you've thought about it. No reason it shouldn't make 140+. Have a set laying around?
Yeah that is what I am going to do next . I just had to get the 267 out if my system .
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 18, 2013, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
what sticks did Jim go to?
RX 267
They suck in my motor . Gave up on the tune @ 127 hp
Pool and vortex time. It's too fricking hot
Ive got a 120R on the dyno right now with these sticks in it, stock flat tops, worked MVA heads, SE 58mm TB and RB LSR pipe. We'll see what it does pretty soon. You didnt care for the way they were shaping up? Why?
The stripped cases with the non-highlight black cylinders looks great! Are they S&S cylinders?
K.
"pistons are 2-1/2 thousands in the hole."
:up: As they should instead of the 25 thou out of the hole on mine. :angry:
Looks good Ray. Keep the pics coming.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 19, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
The stripped cases with the non-highlight black cylinders looks great! Are they S&S cylinders?
K.
Yes they are S&S cylinders...special ordered with no high lighted fins. They costs me $20.00 extra for all black.
Thanks John...I got lucky on the piston deck height.
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2013, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 19, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
The stripped cases with the non-highlight black cylinders looks great! Are they S&S cylinders?
K.
Yes they are S&S cylinders...special ordered with no high lighted fins. They costs me $20.00 extra for all black.
Thanks John...I got luck on the piston deck height.
Lookin' killer Ray, when do you expect the heads?
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 18, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2013, 07:45:07 AM
I've got another bike to ride...my 03 Low rider. I'm not going to go without a bike to ride...I always have a back up plan.
That's my problem... I need one more bike, one less wife, and deeper pockets! :doh:
K.
That's funny right there.
Quote from: Durwood on July 19, 2013, 10:50:45 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2013, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 19, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
The stripped cases with the non-highlight black cylinders looks great! Are they S&S cylinders?
K.
Yes they are S&S cylinders...special ordered with no high lighted fins. They costs me $20.00 extra for all black.
Thanks John...I got lucky on the piston deck height.
Lookin' killer Ray, when do you expect the heads?
I dont know :nix: ...this is all coming together faster than I thought. I will be ready for them after tonights wrenching.
I told Larry to take his time when he told me to send him the heads. I'm not going to rush him...he does too good of work...and he doesn't need me pestering him.
I'll just wait to hear from him.
here's where I'm at now...I've done all I can do until I get the heads.
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a little different angle
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I saw studs :up:
No Cents
What size are those spacers you are using for the head bolts.
Thx
1/2" ID PVC plumbing couplers
Hey wait a minute!! You stole my Cam cover!!Thief!!
Quote from: No Cents on July 20, 2013, 02:11:37 AM
1/2" ID PVC plumbing couplers
I like you're signature. :up:
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 20, 2013, 04:53:58 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 20, 2013, 02:11:37 AM
1/2" ID PVC plumbing couplers
I like you're signature. :up:
did you let the cat out of the bag?.........you know the one ray bagged up for you :chop:
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 20, 2013, 05:14:33 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 20, 2013, 04:53:58 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 20, 2013, 02:11:37 AM
1/2" ID PVC plumbing couplers
I like you're signature. :up:
did you let the cat out of the bag?.........you know the one ray bagged up for you :chop:
I did, it's not proper to keep a fine motor like that in the dark. :chop:
the primary side is done. clutch adjusted and fluid in.
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cam side done as far as I can go until I get the heads.
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I opened up the throat of my Performance Machine backing plate to match the 66mm T/Hogs bore.
There is a fat 66mm T/Hog hiding behind the backing plate in the pic.
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nice :up:
Quote from: No Cents on July 21, 2013, 08:15:58 AM
I opened up the throat of my Performance Machine backing plate to match the 66mm T/Hogs bore.
There is a fat 66mm T/Hog hiding behind the backing plate in the pic.
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So what steps did you take to make the modification?
Max
Max...1st I bolted the backing plate to the t/body. Then I took a piece of pencil that I cut off to be 1" long. I traced the t/body's bore diameter to the inside of the backing plate. I put the backing plate in my vise in between cardboard so I wouldn't mar it up. I used a round rasp file and removed most of the material until I got it close. Then I used a round chain saw file to get it to be an exact match to the bore. I then used some emery cloth to smooth it out after I got it to match the t/body's bore.
It took me about an hour to do it...I was bored.
Quote from: No Cents on July 22, 2013, 08:57:39 AM
Max...1st I bolted the backing plate to the t/body. Then I took a piece of pencil that I cut off to be 1" long. I traced the t/body's bore diameter to the inside of the backing plate. I put the backing plate in my vise in between cardboard so I wouldn't mar it up. I used a round rasp file and removed most of the material until I got it close. Then I used a round chain saw file to get it to be an exact match to the bore. I then used some emery cloth to smooth it out after I got it to match the t/body's bore.
It took me about an hour to do it...I was bored.
Very nice work!
Looks like you did a real nice job.. I was thinking you machined it..
Max
:rose:
He did Max,,,,,,,using the Famous "Hand Bridge-port" & Lots of Elbow-Grease... I had a "Hand Lathe" like that once :hyst:
Good job.......
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2013, 10:39:03 AM
Yes they are S&S cylinders...special ordered with no high lighted fins. They costs me $20.00 extra for all black.
Yup, might have to spend the extra $20.00 myself when the time comes! Looks great!
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 22, 2013, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2013, 10:39:03 AM
Yes they are S&S cylinders...special ordered with no high lighted fins. They costs me $20.00 extra for all black.
Yup, might have to spend the extra $20.00 myself when the time comes! Looks great!
K.
:up:
thanks...I cant wait to see the heads that I stripped on them black jugs. I think it will complete the package.
Have you been running the Clarity covers for a while? I've heard some complaints about them cracking. Tough to tell if those complaints are getting blown out of proportion by people that don't use the parts. I know nothing like that happens on the internet. :wink:
Zach
Quote from: biggzed on July 22, 2013, 02:23:48 PM
Have you been running the Clarity covers for a while? I've heard some complaints about them cracking. Tough to tell if those complaints are getting blown out of proportion by people that don't use the parts. I know nothing like that happens on the internet. :wink:
Zach
I put it on this past winter, and ran it this spring and into the summer...until about a week ago when I put the bike on the lift. I have the primary cover also. No issues with either. I plan on using them both again.
I have gotten a lot of compliments on them...people see them, and see the internal parts spinning with the oil sloshing around, and they just have to tell me how cool it looks. :nix: but I like them.
Quote from: No Cents on July 22, 2013, 02:38:13 PM
Quote from: biggzed on July 22, 2013, 02:23:48 PM
Have you been running the Clarity covers for a while? I've heard some complaints about them cracking. Tough to tell if those complaints are getting blown out of proportion by people that don't use the parts. I know nothing like that happens on the internet. :wink:
Zach
I put it on this past winter, and ran it this spring and into the summer...until about a week ago when I put the bike on the lift. I have the primary cover also. No issues with either. I plan on using them both again.
I have gotten a lot of compliments on them...people see them, and see the internal parts spinning with the oil sloshing around, and they just have to tell me how cool it looks. :nix: but I like them.
I had hairline cracks in the lexan where the fasteners hold onto the cam cover. RSD sent me new lexan and orings for free. Good support. The primary cover has had zero issues. I like the look and many others do also
Ray, hard to tell from the pictures but are those fins on the cylinders the thinner style? Mine are the thicker style. Curious to know how they might look with your 110 heads if you're running the thicker fins on the cylinders. I know S&S claims the thicker fins kill engine noises. I thought it was probably a sales pitch but I have bought in, all I hear on my 124" are pipe and roller rockers. My buddies 120R has horrific valve train noise even though Ive installed Gaterman 1023's and Race series adjustables from Feuling. I think its just the characteristics of the SE-266 cams but Im told the extra noise comes free with the 120R. :nix:
these are the new style cylinders that S&S offers. I just don't think they went thru the process to machine the fins flat to highlight them. They seem to be the same thickness that the 117"er had.
Ray, since you sold Brian the 117" what are you going use for rocker covers?
John...I bought a set of used factory chrome uppers/lowers from Jaycee1964.
You can see them sitting in the background of the pic I posted of the backing plate. They are cleaned and inside zip locked baggies...ready to go with new 12 point chrome bolts and washers to fasten them down with. The rocker arm supports are sitting next to them...the roller rocker arms & shafts are assembly lubed and the breather valves are sitting in place.
I know :doh: it's a little over the top...but I've always cleaned all my parts real good ahead of time...blow them dry with air...then put them directly into zip lock baggies until I'm ready to install them...moving parts that require lube...get lubed in advance, then baggied. I have everything laid out on the table ready to go when the time comes to install them.
I'm a fanatic about cleanliness when it come to assembling a motor. Better yet, as Jim (Strokerjlk) says about me...I'm 8 up :hyst:
Old habits are hard to break I guess!
the 5" Trapp Can and heat shield came in today from the chromer...wow...it's amazing...show quality.
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Sure does look pretty!!
That's real purdy Ray. :teeth:
Good thing you know how to make 124" badges!
Looks good Ray, really good!
Quote from: Davedeluxe on July 24, 2013, 02:25:42 PM
Good thing you know how to make 124" badges!
:up: you know me too well Dave! :hyst:
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Goog thing about those rocker covers is they were already clearanced for a 662-2. You'll have no issues with hitting. Hope they cleaned up nice for you. They looked good on my ride.
:up:
thanks...they cleaned up fine. I did clearance the lids a little more for some extra clearance for the roller rocker arms.
Here's where I'm at now with your heads. I should get a little more out of them before I'm through..
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Quote from: wfolarry on July 25, 2013, 05:55:33 AM
Here's where I'm at now with your heads. I should get a little more out of them before I'm through..
WOW! That ought to make Ray happy. :teeth:
Larry, I think your phone is going to start to ring more often in the near future.
Larry is the Man :up:
What can I say that I already haven't said before.
Larry...you are the "MAN" !!!
I can't wipe the smile off my face after seeing that. :teeth:
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2013, 08:24:48 AM
What can I say that I already haven't said before.
Larry...you are the "MAN" !!!
I can't wipe the smile off my face after seeing that. :teeth:
I also have a set of Larry's 110 heads and I couldn't be happier.
I know the ole 117" motor that had a set of Larry's 110 heads was a happy camper too.
Larry is the master of them!
What size valves in them? What lift is that at?
Quote from: wfolarry on July 25, 2013, 05:55:33 AM
Here's where I'm at now with your heads. I should get a little more out of them before I'm through..
seen that 330 before... :up:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/120R%20pics/120rheads.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/120R%20pics/120rheads.jpg.html)
Quote from: vdop on July 25, 2013, 06:34:55 PM
What size valves in them? What lift is that at?
I don't know...Larry would have to answer that for you. I sent him bare heads...with no valves or springs.
It's a 2.1 @ .700".
went to Kil-kare dragway in Xenia, Ohio last Saturday to watch Jim (Strokerjlk) race.
Here's a picture of his hotrod resting in between rounds.
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Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2013, 06:34:28 PM
went to Kil-kare dragway in Xenia, Ohio last Saturday to watch Jim (Strokerjlk) race.
Here's a picture of his hotrod resting in between rounds.
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Cool bike, what numbers it run?
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2013, 06:34:28 PM
went to Kil-kare dragway in Xenia, Ohio last Saturday to watch Jim (Strokerjlk) race.
Here's a picture of his hotrod resting in between rounds.
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Thanks for coming out . It was great BSing with you guys . :beer:
V Deuce
It's a sportsman class bike (SE stock eliminator) Runs 11:50 index class .
Bike has ran a best of 10.4
This is what you want it to look like . an 11.50 with a double 0 and a 7
Unfortunately this was my last test and tune run . It didn't count for anything :banghead:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-5.jpg)
Nice...must be on a .400 pro tree?
Quote from: HighLiner on July 29, 2013, 08:42:10 PM
Nice...must be on a .400 pro tree?
Thanks
Yes it is .
I wish I could have made it there as well. Would have been cool to meet some of you guys. I'm less than a hour from kil kare.
I don't know about how things went Sunday for the finals...but qualifying day on Saturday was a good one. I seen a lot of awfully fast bikes that day. They had some old nostalgic funny cars that ran Saturday too.
The new owner did a nice job on re-concreting the new tracks surface. It looked fast and smooth as silk.
It would of been nice to put a face to the name...maybe next time a few of us can get together there.
Ray
I'd make the trip!
Larry is done with the heads...and mailed them out already. :teeth:
I should be able to get it clayed up this weekend and be able to check clearances.
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2013, 09:15:50 AM
Larry is done with the heads...and mailed them out already. :teeth:
I should be able to get it clayed up this weekend and be able to check clearances.
An image come to mind.... Ray in the driveway waiting on the big brown truck, pacing, pacing, back and forth... :teeth: where is the truck! :nix:
Just kiddin Ray, I know I'd be excited to get them too. :up:
Oh yeah, we'll need pictures of the heads ya know... :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2013, 09:15:50 AM
Larry is done with the heads...and mailed them out already. :teeth:
I should be able to get it clayed up this weekend and be able to check clearances.
ALLRIGHTYTHEN!!! Brian, I would have a tent set up next to the driveway if it were me....LOL
Quote from: Durwood on July 31, 2013, 10:25:03 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2013, 09:15:50 AM
Larry is done with the heads...and mailed them out already. :teeth:
I should be able to get it clayed up this weekend and be able to check clearances.
ALLRIGHTYTHEN!!! Brian, I would have a tent set up next to the driveway if it were me....LOL
I've been known to meet our UPS man in a neighboring small town, 6 miles away, in the morning, as my address is usually an afternoon delivery. :wink:
He gave me his "normal" route schedule a long time ago. :smilep:
I've learned over time...patience is a virtue...this is the ultimate test for it. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on August 01, 2013, 06:56:50 AM
I've learned over time...patience is a virtue...this is the ultimate for it. :hyst:
:up: I understand, kinda in a hurry for the work week to end myself, so I can go home and get busy too! :chop:
Nice recipe!
Top quality parts and talent usually results in a very positive result.
I'm not a prediction maker, as I never put the cart before the horse, but this combo looks like a winner!
:up:
Thanks Paul...this weekend looks like final assembly might happen if all goes well with the clay assembly.
Ray do you know what the final flow was for the heads?
nope...Larry would have to answer that one for you.
I didn't get far tonight. I'll have to open up the intake valve pockets a little. The bigger valves Larry put in actually fit into the valve pocket relief when I clayed it...but the back radius of the relief needs to be enlarged a little.
Here is a pic with the head sitting on a cylinder when I was claying it.
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I like the measure twice, cut once method, you have approched this build with.
You assembled a team of proven winners to be successful before you bought the first part , from the Dark horse crank work, to the WFO head work, to the Strokerjlk tune , this build will perform. :up:
BTW, after the tune, i'm coming to get the tool box :hyst:
You know you can take the crash bars off.. With that motor you probably die anyway.. :wink:
Max
Quote from: Durwood on August 01, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
I like the measure twice, cut once method, you have approched this build with.
You assembled a team of proven winners to be successful before you bought the first part , from the Dark horse crank work, to the WFO head work, to the Strokerjlk tune , this build will perform. :up:
BTW, after the tune, i'm coming to get the tool box :hyst:
but...I'll need them for the Pro Charger you suggested :nix: :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on August 02, 2013, 02:47:38 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 01, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
I like the measure twice, cut once method, you have approched this build with.
You assembled a team of proven winners to be successful before you bought the first part , from the Dark horse crank work, to the WFO head work, to the Strokerjlk tune , this build will perform. :up:
BTW, after the tune, i'm coming to get the tool box :hyst:
but...I'll need them for the Pro Charger you suggested :nix: :hyst:
thats why your removing material from the pistons .
it all makes sense now :chop:
"from the Dark horse crank work"
Think Kirby did the crank work!!! :soda:
Quote from: bulldog on August 02, 2013, 11:29:18 AM
"from the Dark horse crank work"
Think Kirby did the crank work!!! :soda:
oops my bad :slap:
I made a little head way today...it clayed out nicely now. I also got the new SE comp and CompensaVer installed today
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some of Larry's master pieces
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another pic
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one more for good measure...the head gasket mark is there from claying the engine.
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Heads look awesome Ray. + you got them quickly. :up: Got the tune scheduled?
Strokerjlk said to give him a heads up when I'm ready...I think he was racing this weekend down south. I'll probably be ready to heat cycle it later on today or tomorrow. I'll call Jim Monday and see when he can get it in.
Quote from: No Cents on August 03, 2013, 05:01:21 AM
Strokerjlk said to give him a heads up when I'm ready...I think he was racing this weekend down south. I'll probably be ready to heat cycle it later on today or tomorrow. I'll call Jim Monday and see when he can get it in.
Don't tease us like that Ray. :bike:
Set the video camera up for us all to hear that initial fire and idle. :hug:
too late...I did the heat cycles yesterday...sorry I didn't think of videoing them. I used the S&S heat cycle procedure. I did a few heat cycles with the Trapp 5" can on it...it's quieter...but I had to hear the Zilla muffler also. The Zilla muffler stays on...the bike seems to like it better for some reason. I guess the neighborhood will have to deal with it. :hyst:
I'm going to take a ride here in a few minutes to go ahead and seat the rings in. I'll take a couple of short rides today and get 50 miles on it, so I can change the oil and have it ready for Strokerjlk to put it on his dyno for a tune.
I'll take a video of it later on today and post it on you tube for you.
I'm all smiles right now! :wink:
Can't wait for the video!
well the maiden voyage didn't go good. I thought the comp started to make a noise...so I turned around and went back home and put the bike back on the lift and pulled the primary cover off. It wasn't the comp!
No more...all smiles :angry:
Here is what I found
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I'm positive I had it in correct. I'm guessing that I need to do a little research and see what I have to do to fix this disaster. :banghead:
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Ouch!!! :emoGroan:
I am on my third rotor. Last time I threw a magnet I had my Indy put a sealed rotor in. I don't know what brand he used. It has been running fine for the last 4 or five years with it.
is there some kind of spacer that goes between the rotor and stator when a Timkens conversion is done on a 124? This is the same rotor/stator that I used on my 117"er. It had a Timkens conversion done...and it didn't have this issue.
The only thing I can think of is the stator sat further out on this 124"er...which let the rotor hit it. :scratch:
Ray, I'm sure you put the stator in right, I don't think the wires will reach out the case if reversed. I would look at the sprocket spacer, maybe it's too short? The spacer that John supplied to you for the 117 was 11887. I measured it, it's 1.117" long. I would think you need the same spacing for this motor too. Place a straight edge across the spacer like in the photo, you should see the stator sitting behind the straight edge, giving room for the rotor.
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you nailed it Brian...It didn't have the spacer on it when I got it back from Kirby.
I didn't even notice it when I put the primary together :doh:
Now I'll have to chase parts tomorrow. :emsad:
I almost did the same thing. That spacer doesnt come with the SnS engine.. the guy who removed my old engine took the spacer. I put mine together and seen that I was missing it luckily.
it also acts a seal if im not mistaken.
I was able to salvage the rotor...the stator is shot.
I'll go to the dealership tomorrow and get the spacer needed along with a new stator.
Chalk that one up to a :bf: :doh:
if this is different to the original stock part I would appreciate the part number that you end up using as I am starting a similar motor build.
Quote from: OzyMax on August 04, 2013, 04:13:37 PM
if this is different to the original stock part I would appreciate the part number that you end up using as I am starting a similar motor build.
Correction, My timken upgrade used HD #11887 for 07 and up
The spacer needed with the timken conversion is listed in the se catalog under the timken conversion race description.
I fixed my stupid mistake today in the primary. I took it out and seated the rings. I rode it a little over 50 miles...brought it home and changed the oil. It's ready for Jim to tune it. It is definitely a new program.
Here's what it looks like in the bike...no heat shields on the head pipe so Jim can do his thing.
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a picture of the completed engine
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Very nice.
Jim, where are you? A tune is waiting for you. Hello! :cry:
Who makes that flash Cam cover?
Rolland Sands Design, they have more see through stuff...
http://www.rolandsands.com/categories/rsd-clarity-line (http://www.rolandsands.com/categories/rsd-clarity-line)
Quote from: WI Bob on August 05, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
Very nice.
Jim, where are you? A tune is waiting for you. Hello! :cry:
It's headed to Strokerjlk tomorrow for him to work his magic :smilep:
Quote from: No Cents on August 05, 2013, 07:30:09 PM
Quote from: WI Bob on August 05, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
Very nice.
Jim, where are you? A tune is waiting for you. Hello! :cry:
It's headed to Strokerjlk tomorrow for him to work his magic :smilep:
:up: Coool Ray :chop:
I'll get in touch with you, will bring that engine stand back to you one day this week. Supposed to drop my truck off at the dealer Wednesday to have a blower motor resister fixed under warranty. Should have it back Thursday I hope.
Quote from: No Cents on August 05, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
a picture of the completed engine
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That's a lot of blued pipe on both the front and rear.
They all do that.
Quote from: jam65 on August 05, 2013, 09:20:04 PM
They all do that.
Does yours? Mine doesn't, it turns dark grey.
Quote from: FLTR2008TRIKE on August 05, 2013, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: No Cents on August 05, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
a picture of the completed engine
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That's a lot of blued pipe on both the front and rear.
that pipe turned that color when it was on my 103 Stage IV build...back a few years ago. I just cant seem to get away from the Zilla pipe for some reason :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2013, 01:33:55 PM
you nailed it Brian...It didn't have the spacer on it when I got it back from Kirby.
I didn't even notice it when I put the primary together :doh:
Now I'll have to chase parts tomorrow. :emsad:
didn't have a spacer on it when I got it,just figured you took it off,kinda thought you knew it had to go back on. :scratch:
Thats a bummer, every timken conversion we do . We install the seal and the spacer, one less trip to the store for the end user. Glad you got it handled. Looking forward to the new numbers
Quote from: Merc63 on August 05, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: jam65 on August 05, 2013, 09:20:04 PM
They all do that.
Does yours? Mine doesn't, it turns dark grey.
His d&d did .
And so will the sleeper trike . :hyst:
It's a cheap azz chrome finish on the miid steel headpipes , wrapped with heat sheilds . ( that's why they make heat shields)
He has stainless now , so no like you it doesn't discolor .(blue )
Do some hard riding at night and take a look at your headpipe .
Not just a 5-10 mile ride . I mean a tank to tank ride .
Quote from: AllanW on August 05, 2013, 06:21:06 PM
Rolland Sands Design, they have more see through stuff...
http://www.rolandsands.com/categories/rsd-clarity-line (http://www.rolandsands.com/categories/rsd-clarity-line)
Got to see their see thru rocker covers at Sturgis. Kind of fun to watch. But I would crash because I would always be looking at the rockers wiggling. :doh:
Quote from: WI Bob on August 06, 2013, 06:16:01 AM
Got to see their see thru rocker covers at Sturgis. Kind of fun to watch.
See thru rocker covers sound good.
What are they made from?
How do you go if you have to relieve them for high lift cams?
Did you know about these Ray?
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 06, 2013, 05:30:41 AM
Quote from: Merc63 on August 05, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: jam65 on August 05, 2013, 09:20:04 PM
They all do that.
Does yours? Mine doesn't, it turns dark grey.
His d&d did .
And so will the sleeper trike . :hyst:
It's a cheap azz chrome finish on the miid steel headpipes , wrapped with heat sheilds . ( that's why they make heat shields)
He has stainless now , so no like you it doesn't discolor .(blue )
Do some hard riding at night and take a look at your headpipe .
Not just a 5-10 mile ride . I mean a tank to tank ride .
This sleeper trike has been coast to coast and back. With a 103" and then 117" now a 124". In the 300k miles I have ridden over many years I have never had a set of pipes turn blue down so far into the pipe. And I have done 1000 mile days on my old Evo and as much as 750 on my trike.
Quote from: prodrag1320 on August 06, 2013, 04:29:07 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2013, 01:33:55 PM
you nailed it Brian...It didn't have the spacer on it when I got it back from Kirby.
I didn't even notice it when I put the primary together :doh:
Now I'll have to chase parts tomorrow. :emsad:
didn't have a spacer on it when I got it,just figured you took it off,kinda thought you knew it had to go back on. :scratch:
Sent spacer with my bottom end to Kirby when Timken was done, it was returned with spacer and new seal. Gave him hell on his packing, he said "go to hell, judge me on my machine work not packing"!! LOL :bike:
Quote from: prodrag1320 on August 06, 2013, 04:29:07 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2013, 01:33:55 PM
you nailed it Brian...It didn't have the spacer on it when I got it back from Kirby.
I didn't even notice it when I put the primary together :doh:
Now I'll have to chase parts tomorrow. :emsad:
didn't have a spacer on it when I got it,just figured you took it off,kinda thought you knew it had to go back on. :scratch:
It's not your fault Kirby...it's all mine. It didn't come from S&S with the spacer.
When I took my 117"er engine out and sold it...I left the spacer on it. :doh:
When I assembled the primary side on the 124"er...I totally overlooked not having it.
It was a $140.00 boo-boo on my behalf. The spacer and new stator are in now and all is good.
I just got back from dropping the bike off at Jim's today. It's time for the Strokerjlk touch to put on it.
I predict 125/125 :unsure:
QuoteI just got back from dropping the bike off at Jim's today.
I thought the 117 er had throttle response.
this thing feels ANGRY.
your gonna have to bring it over to bowling green this fall. :bike:
Ray, your a pretty funny guy with that prediction.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 06, 2013, 05:02:51 PM
QuoteI just got back from dropping the bike off at Jim's today.
I thought the 117 er had throttle response.
this thing feels ANGRY.
your gonna have to bring it over to bowling green this fall. :bike:
:embarrassed:
Well lookie what I found behind the Throttle Hog . :smiled:
8 UP for sure :hyst:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-6.jpg)
Ha...you found it! :hyst:
that was for you!
Um, I'm guessing if Santa's Elves are any indication so far that were looking at a wee bit more than Ray's predicted 125/125. That's sort of like the last words before you get ambushed in the slot canyons of a Western! Doh!!!! :hyst:
We are all looking forward to your results Ray. Me too. :up:
-Tutt
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 06, 2013, 06:32:12 PM
Well lookie what I found behind the Throttle Hog . :smiled:
8 UP for sure :hyst:
Ha, that's funny!
Quote from: No Cents on August 06, 2013, 06:36:09 PM
Ha...you found it! :hyst:
that was for you!
That was a good one! :teeth:
Anxiously awaiting! :pop:
:fish: If the 125² doesn't suit ya, ill sell ya the hair dryer. More black would suit that bike anyway :smiled:
Quote from: No Cents on August 06, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
I predict 125/125 :unsure:
Based on the high quality of the components and people involved in the build and tune, not to mention the results of you last build, to call your prediction sand bagging would be an understatement.
A reasonable expectation of 1.25 hp per cube puts this at 155/155, can't wait to see the shape of the curve.
Did you send the Super trap along for a quick test run?
no Trapp as of yet...I think 1.25 hp per cube is going to be a little high. Honestly...I think it might make the mid 140's... :nix:
Not really. It had a nice deep throaty rumble to it. I ran it for the first two heat cycles...then tried the Zilla muffler. My friend and I were both in agreement that the bike seemed to like the Zilla muffler better. The engine just seemed smoother with less restriction. I know I didn't give the Trapp can a fair shack...beings it needs to be tuned with disc's added or subtracted. I just didn't want to tie up Jims dyno using his time trying to dial it in. I think I had 15 disc's in it with an open end cap. Once I get the bike back...and get use to the feel of it with the Zilla muffler on it...I might play with the Trapp later on. It does look nice on the bike...I will give it that much.
Try the trap with no cap or discs
Hi Ray
I'm curious about your breakin philosophy.
You did the heat cycles and ring seat then off to Stroker for the tune.
When you did the 117'er you did the 500 mile break-in ? before you went for the dyno.
I know you're in good hands with Stroker but quite a few still reluctant to put a new engine on a dyno.
You have changed your mind ?
( Interested in the opinion of others too but don't want to hijack the thread)
Thanks
I actually did the S&S break in procedure on the 117 also. I attempted to do the butt dyno tune on it with the TTS. I thought I had it close...boy was I ever wrong. I finally listened to some great advice from the forum members here and took it to Jim and let him tune it.
I personally feel that once the rings are seated in...it's not going to hurt an engine being tuned on the dyno. Hell...look at the drag bikes...they come down for complete top end rebuilds...then back on the track and they get ripped on wide open.
I feel in the hands of a good experienced tuner...a new engine will only benefit with the proper tune being installed right from the get go.
I have to admit that the benefit of a quality tune is not replaceable.
I hope this answers your question.
Jim just call me...he's done tuning it. It made 145 hp. He said the clutch has something funny going wrong with it and he didn't want to pull on it any harder.
I'll go get it in the morning and see if I can figure out what is going on with the clutch.
Quote from: No Cents on August 07, 2013, 04:32:58 PM
I feel in the hands of a good experienced tuner...a new engine will only benefit with the proper tune being installed right from the get go.
I have to admit that the benefit of a quality tune is not replaceable.
I hope this answers your question.
Yeah. makes sense .
But I don't have a good tuner here so I'll have to nurse mine thru the break-in with TTS.
Quote from: No Cents on August 07, 2013, 04:47:27 PM
Jim just call me...he's done tuning it. It made 145 hp. He said the clutch has something funny going wrong with it and he didn't want to pull on it any harder.
I'll go get it in the morning and see if I can figure out what is going on with the clutch.
Fix the clutch and you should get a few more.
Well done Ray and Kirby and Larry , and Jim's not finished?
Whats the TQ? What is the CCP?
Ray, that is still the 1.169 per cubic inch ratio we talked about. Still very, very, respectable and more is probably available with some tweaking. It's pretty common to need some initial "build tweaking" to get the HP and TQ maxed out! Not unusual at all. Like all of us, I look forward to your stories. Regards, -Tutt
I don't know exactly what the ccp's are. I think Jim said something like 190/187 ccp's. He said it crossed the 100 tq line early @ 2100 rpm...but it apparently scared him because that was the 2nd time he lost the clutch lever while it was on the drum. He re-adjusted it once....then it did it again he said.
I will go get it tomorrow and figure out what's going on with the clutch. Jim said he wasn't going to push it any harder and have something break.
So...I know there is more left in it...maybe not much...but I would have to fix it first to find out.
There is a local tuner here in the town I live in that has a dyno if I'm curious to see what it will do after I find out what's going on with the clutch and fix it.
Hell...I'll probably never know. I'll just ride it once I get it fixed.
Ray, from what Jim has said, I would think either the clutch adjuster nut came loose, or maybe you lost the throughout bearing under the right side transmission cover. There are only a few things that can cause loss of the clutch lever. If Jim adjusted the adjuster screw when he adjusted the clutch, then that could be eliminated as gotten loose. If you need anything, let me know.
yeah...Jim's kinda thinking the throw out bearing too. He said it was weird...he lost it the first time so he went in and re-adjusted the clutch in the hub and lever and all seemed good. He said he was doing some more pulls on it later on...and it did it to him a 2nd time again...so he backed it down slowly on the dyno and found neutral...then 5 minutes later he said it had the lever again, without doing anything to it. :scratch:
I don't blame him for not wanting to push on it harder...that would worry me too if I were him. He said he had done enough pulls on it to get it tuned...but with the clutch acting up the way it was...it wasn't a pretty graph.
I'll pull the tranny face off and take a peek see in there when I get it home. Hopefully it is that simple and I'll see the problem right away.
I suspect it is the throw out bearing .
When it first happened yesterday , I called ray . I thought it was probably the throw out bearing.
Ray and I discussed the issue . He asked if I would adjust it and see what I thought .
Well I didn't have a warm fuzzy feeling about in. But we proceeded .
Seen this before a couple times . But it is weird that the lever went away , then came back .
At that point it is time to quit . It's in the final stage of tuning . Just tweaking to make the graph pretty . 145/ 133 sae .and yes the sheet isnt real pretty .
But I don't think their is much to gain . It might have a pull that makes some more peak numbers , but it will only be a couple . It isn't worth beating on a beautiful machine for that . IMO. It still pulls and runs down the road . But I suspect the cable was a little to tight to begin with and it took the throw out bearing out .
It started at 121/125 . So it took some tuning to get where it's at. That's why I don't think there is anything worth going for left in it . ( with this combination ) :wink:
Nice low compression build .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-8.jpg)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-7.jpg)
I'd be putting a Baker Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing in there, especially now that the've answered my concerns re the Thrust Washer they use.
When the clutch is all fixed up and the graph look'n pretty, can we see an overlay of the 117" vs. 124"?
K.
Quote from: FSG on August 07, 2013, 10:55:20 PM
I'd be putting a Baker Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing in there, especially now that the've answered my concerns re the Thrust Washer they use.
I ordered it today FSG on the way home from Strokerjlk's with the bike. Baker said they would get one out to me asap.
I got the bike home and on the lift getting ready to do a little wrenching on it and getting to the root of the clutch problem.
I fired the bike up when I got it home...it idles smooth as silk and the throttle response is absolutely amazing.
It did make over 100 tq @ 2100 rpm and the hp line is north and west of the 100 hp line @ 4K.
This is another 1st class excellent tune by Jim!
The only reason I can come up with for the ccp's being lower than targeted is...the Cometic .030 head gaskets that were suppose to come with the top end kit I bought...were apparently .040. I should have measured them :doh:
The Big Boyz calculator is spot on with the ccp's that Jim came up with running a .040 h/g.
I'll be calling Cometic in the morning and seeing what they say.
Ray, Let me know what you find in there, if it's just the bearing or other problems, if you don't mind. I should get my truck back tomorrow, and will bring your engine stand back tomorrow night, or Saturday.
I bet she runs good. :up: I'd be tempted to put a stock bearing in and ride her... :wink:
Could always put the Baker in later.
Just a note about that Baker Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing. If you purchased the Kit which contains the gaskets, bearing and Ramps then all is sweet, BUT if you got the bearing, thrust washers and bush, which is all I want, then you will need to enlarge the recess in the Stock Inner Ramp so that it will take the larger diameter Thrust Washer.
Below are pix of the ramps I machined to accept the Thrust Washers I used, they had a larger OD than stock but a smaller OD what Baker are using.
Make sure you have the right tool as that ramp material is hard chit.
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=742)
Ray, you and Jim and Larry and Kirby done really good. 145hp with clutch issues and under 200 psi is a bad mf'r. Plus you did it in short order. You are passionate about this stuff and admire your tenacity. You'll get it sorted out, and enjoy a lot of fun miles.
Or maybe a 145" or an XWedge is in your future. :wink:
Ray, I think you'll like the 18 degree ramps, personally. They seem to be better for larger motors and where clutch lever pull is heavier or at least that is my personal preference. If you prefer the 21 degree ramps, FSG is right. You will need to do a little work on the piece he has posted pictures of above and as he mentioned, Im sure that is pretty hard material. As easy as it is to change, you might want to try both. I also installed their Street Door when I installed the throwout bearing. It is not quite so easy to R&R. You have to pull the inner primary, the clutch, comp, the trans sprocket, the mainshaft inner race and the entire gearset out of the tranny housing and then press the mainshaft and counter shaft out of the stock door. Really kind of a pain in the balls but a nice upgrade over the stock setup IMO.
here's what I found when I got it home from Jims. The clutch adjustment end welded itself to the p/rod and the tranny slinger side also welded itself to the p/rod. I bent the slinger off the tranny end and clamped that end down with large vise grips up against the rear foot peg. I took the clutch basket off and used a foot and a half long pipe wrench on the adjuster threaded end...I was finally able to break it loose. I drained the tranny and no metal came out. The throw out bearing was basically gone and the two thrust washers were welded together. The metal from the throw out bearing was laying in the bottom of the tranny cover. That's the thrust washers standing upright against the p/rod and the oil slinger end in the channel locks. You can see where it welded itself on.
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dang Ray! I guess the high speeds on the dyno caused the weld, and I would think the cable was probably a little too tight to cause it all. I'm just surprised the clutch didn't slip.
All of these clutches seem to have their own personality, I've had to experiment with my Barnett Scorpion to get it working right, and still have some free play in the cable.
Are you gonna get some all stock parts at HD on Tennessee Ave. so you can ride it?
Sorry about the HIG weld. I admire how you take these issues in stride.
This should work when you get your new components.
Put at least a half turn of slop on the Pushrod adjustment screw and at least a nickel's width of play at the lever.
Quote from: autoworker on August 08, 2013, 07:47:59 PM
This should work when you get your new components.
Put at least a half turn of slop on the Pushrod adjustment screw and at least a nickel's width of play at the lever.
I had it a little more than a 1/4 turn backed off of bottoming the adjuster to the p/rod...and I had the cable adjusted about an 1/8 of an inch off the housing.
I don't know what went wrong. But something sure did. I think the throw out bearing gave up the ghost and started the whole thing. :nix:
This build has fought me the whole way...but sooner or later I'll have it by it's azz! I won't give up...I like the challenge.
I'm pretty sure the way my luck has been running...the parts I'll need will have to be ordered.
Hang in there, performance takes patience and it will test yours at times.
Jim might of thought I was embarrassed of my graph #'s because of the clutch f-ing up...but here they are for all to see.
They aren't pretty...but they are the truth.
In the build spec's...it has 1.65 exhaust valves in the heads...not 1.7...but it does have 2.1 intakes
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
std...she was trying to still pull...damn clutch!
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and the pretty clutch graph :doh:
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Looks good Ray, Jim had said it just wasn't prettied up. :up:
Are you thinking of changing the head gasket? Can you get in between the head and cylinder well enough to get a measure on what's in there now?
no...I tried to get in there and measure...just couldn't find a good place. I'm guessing they would have to come off to be measured and I'm going to get this clutch thing fixed and ride it for the rest of the season.
Now winter time will probably make my tool box talk to me...and you know me...I'll be aiming for 200 ccp's this time. :hyst:
Then I bet Jim will have a pretty sheet to post.
It's not the most accurate way, but "maybe" you can use a 0.030" feeler gauge somewhere around the head gasket to get an idea if it's close to 0.030", or something else. I agree about fixing the clutch and riding her.
Winter will be be hear here before we want it.... :emsad:
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 05:10:30 AM
no...I tried to get in there and measure...just couldn't find a good place. I'm guessing they would have to come off to be measured and I'm going to get this clutch thing fixed and ride it for the rest of the season.
Now winter time will probably make my tool box talk to me...and you know me...I'll be aiming for 200 ccp's this time. :hyst:
Then I bet Jim will have a pretty sheet to post.
Ray, you should be able to run kerosene at 185ccp and not ping :chop:
Quote from: No Cents on July 24, 2013, 02:17:01 PM
the 5" Trapp Can and heat shield came in today from the chromer...wow...it's amazing...show quality.
[attach=0]
Why did you decide not to try the trapp can?
Ray, I would look at it like this, you're making horsepower at 1.2 HP per cubic inch. Actually the same ratio as the 117 motor is. And the compression ratio is a little less on this motor. If you do later bump up the compression, the HP and torque will go up too.
Any way you look at it, it's a strong build. :up:
good thinking Brian. I was trying to get a vernier caliper in there with no luck. I just went out to the barn and sure enough...the .030 feeler gauge slid right in with slop...the .040 thousand went in tight. I was able to do it right at the front exhaust port while the exhaust is off. You can clearly see it.
That confirms it has a .040 on it.
I'll be calling Cometic today and raising a little hell. :gob:
Quote from: Durwood on August 09, 2013, 05:19:33 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 05:10:30 AM
no...I tried to get in there and measure...just couldn't find a good place. I'm guessing they would have to come off to be measured and I'm going to get this clutch thing fixed and ride it for the rest of the season.
Now winter time will probably make my tool box talk to me...and you know me...I'll be aiming for 200 ccp's this time. :hyst:
Then I bet Jim will have a pretty sheet to post.
Ray, you should be able to run kerosene at 185ccp and not ping :chop:
:up:
Quote from: NCTURBOS on August 08, 2013, 07:23:41 AM
When the clutch is all fixed up and the graph look'n pretty, can we see an overlay of the 117" vs. 124"?
K.
this is how it stacks up now.
Blue is the 117 er
Red/Brown is the 124 er
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets264.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets264.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 09, 2013, 07:07:01 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on August 08, 2013, 07:23:41 AM
When the clutch is all fixed up and the graph look'n pretty, can we see an overlay of the 117" vs. 124"?
K.
this is how it stacks up now.
Blue is the 117 er
Red/Brown is the 124 er
That's interesting, they have almost identical curves. So does that indicate that the Zilla is controlling most of the power curve? That's about the only thing that's the same for the two motors. Other than Larry did both sets of heads.
QuoteSo does that indicate that the Zilla is controlling most of the power curve?
ummm hummm. :up:
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 09, 2013, 07:20:12 AM
QuoteSo does that indicate that the Zilla is controlling most of the power curve?
ummm hummm. :up:
Absofrickenlutely
Max
Nice job by all
I bet the similar shape has a lot to do with the pipe.
145.46 / 124 = 1.173
136.29 / 117 = 1.164
Even with the ccp down by more than 10lbs you're making more HP/CI than the 117"
Is this with the Cyclerama .650 cam?
I always understood that the exhaust has influence on the power curve, but it seems that it's more like it dictates the curve. Cams have influence on where the power is too, but this shows me the exhaust is a huge contributer to the curve.
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 09, 2013, 07:28:41 AM
I always understood that the exhaust has influence on the power curve, but it seems that it's more like it dictates the curve. Cams have influence on where the power is too, but this shows me the exhaust is a huge contributer to the curve.
Yup, I've been told this numerous times by a tuning friend of mine, "Pipe dictates the curve" :wink:
Quote from: Durwood on August 09, 2013, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 09, 2013, 07:28:41 AM
I always understood that the exhaust has influence on the power curve, but it seems that it's more like it dictates the curve. Cams have influence on where the power is too, but this shows me the exhaust is a huge contributer to the curve.
Yup, I've been told this numerous times by a tuning friend of mine, "Pipe dictates the curve" :wink:
I don't know who that would have been... :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 09, 2013, 07:32:16 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 09, 2013, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 09, 2013, 07:28:41 AM
I always understood that the exhaust has influence on the power curve, but it seems that it's more like it dictates the curve. Cams have influence on where the power is too, but this shows me the exhaust is a huge contributer to the curve.
Yup, I've been told this numerous times by a tuning friend of mine, "Pipe dictates the curve" :wink:
I don't know who that would have been... :teeth:
:nix:..LOL
Looking good!! Hope u get the clutch issues worked out soon.
did a few stops today to get all the parts I needed. The clutch is fixed. I'm headed out to take my 1st good ride on it.
We'll see how it goes. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 02:02:46 PM
did a few stops today to all the parts I needed. The clutch is fixed. I'm headed out to take my 1st good ride on it.
We'll see how it goes. :wink:
Cool! :up:
I'm waitin on a friend and am headed out in the country.... :chop:
I expect a new signature line when you get back! :teeth:
I went for my 1st ride today with my friend Randy and his shark nose. We road out in the country to a local watering hole and had ourselves a fish basket and a couple of cold :beer:. He told me to let it rip on the way out there. So I rolled it out in 1st gear from a stop sign and pulled the clutch in and dumped it at 4K...it instantly went to bouncing off the rev limiter and melting the rear tire in the process.
The bike idles smooth as silk and rev's instantly. On the way back I had to try it again...so I let it loose again and it bounced off the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. :up: :teeth: I didn't die Max!
I got about 3 miles from the house and all the sudden the engine tone changed. I pulled over in a church parking lot and it sounded like the front exhaust gasket sprung a leak. I limped it home and tightened the flange bolts a bit. I'd say 90% of the noise went away. I'll let it cool down over night and re-install the exhaust again in the morning.
The temperature on the bike when I got it home with the Dino break in oil was 210*...with no cooling fans turned on all afternoon. I was pleasantly surprised to see that and was very happy to see it running that cool.
I called Cometic Gaskets today. I told them I ordered a .030 top end gasket kit and I think I got the wrong head gaskets...without saying another word they asked me the SKU # and instantly apologized. They said they had a few kits that went out with the wrong size head gaskets in them...it figures I got one of them :doh:
They said they will send me out a set of .030 h/g's out right away. A lot of good it's going to do me now :angry:
Right now with the .040 h/g's I'm at this according to the Big Boyz calculator:
11.09:1 static compression
9.28:1 corrected
189 ccp's...which is what Jim's guage showed
My goal with the .030 h/g would of put me at:
11.32:1 static
9.46:1 corrected
194.3 ccp's
To tell you the truth...the way this thing starts so easy and the power it has...maybe the Cometic mistake is a blessing in disguise. :idunno:
That is sweet Ray, we will have to work out the bugs and all meet up somewhere!
That fish basket sounds good right about now! :soda: Ray, where are you located, seems to be a few of you from Ohio?
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on August 09, 2013, 06:35:02 PM
That fish basket sounds good right about now! :soda: Ray, where are you located, seems to be a few of you from Ohio?
K.
SW corner of Ohio...a little place called Harrison
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on August 09, 2013, 06:35:02 PM
That fish basket sounds good right about now! :soda: Ray, where are you located, seems to be a few of you from Ohio?
K.
SW corner of Ohio...a little place called Harrison
Cool... I spent '91-'95 between Kent St. Univ. and working in Cleveland.
K.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 09, 2013, 07:25:41 AM
Nice job by all
I bet the similar shape has a lot to do with the pipe.
145.46 / 124 = 1.173
136.29 / 117 = 1.164
Even with the ccp down by more than 10lbs you're making more HP/CI than the 117"
Is this with the Cyclerama .650 cam?
yes they are the Cyclerama 650 cams.
Wes doesn't advertise these cams. He grinds them himself.
spec's are:
timing @ .053 dur lobe center lift LSA TDC lift
intake 26/58 264 106.0 .650 109.50 .218
exhaust 68/22 270 113.0 .628 109.50 .222 48 overlap
Thank you Ray for the great dinner and beers,and for bouncing that new stroker motor off the limiter a couple times,check out bikernet.com they have a few pics up from sturgis that shows s&s released the new 2007 and up super stock T2 cases :koolaid:
T2's :emoGroan:...how big can you go? I bet I know someone that will be placing an order Monday for one :hyst:
How 'bout a link to those cases?
The web site is www.bikernet.com (http://www.bikernet.com) on the right hand side of there web page click on Sturgis is rockin around the clock thursday news august 8th the S&S article is on page 3..
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notice how the fins are cut at the top of the cylinders. It could be me...but they look short and fat. Big bore for a short stroke.
I guess the guy that let it slip out to us at the dealer convention back in February...wasn't lying to us after all.
What do you think...4 1/4 and 4 3/8 bore options?
I know your getting one.
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 09, 2013, 07:25:41 AM
Nice job by all
I bet the similar shape has a lot to do with the pipe.
145.46 / 124 = 1.173
136.29 / 117 = 1.164
Even with the ccp down by more than 10lbs you're making more HP/CI than the 117"
Is this with the Cyclerama .650 cam?
yes they are the Cyclerama 650 cams.
Wes doesn't advertise these cams. He grinds them himself.
spec's are:
timing @ .053 dur lobe center lift LSA TDC lift
intake 26/58 264 106.0 .650 109.50 .218
exhaust 68/22 270 113.0 .628 109.50 .222 48 overlap
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
I'm going to try the 58* intake closing Cyclerama .650 lift gear drive cams first...hopefully they will perform as well as Wes Brown @ Cyclerama said they would. Wes said he designed these cams specifically for a 124" motor so they will produce early torque and let it carry that torque thru the whole rpm band, while building high horsepower along with it. He said he has not put them in a 124" motor yet with 11.00:1 compression, along with proper headwork...that has not make 150/150.
At 136tq it seems unlikely that even with the ccp up to 200 that you will make the Cyclerama number of 150tq. The hp curve looks like it would be very close to, if not over, the 150 hp but at about 64-6500rpm.
With your present compression have you considered a cam change to move the tq higher and to the left forcing the hp to rise earlier?
I have to agree with you...it definately fell short of what Wes said they would make with 11.00:1 compression. I'm a tad over 11.00:1 with the .040 h/g's. Larry's head work is outstanding...so I know there isn't a problem there. I've still got the 662-2's sitting on the work bench that stare me in the face everyday :nix:
This winter I might pull the heads back off and put the intended .030 h/g's on and maybe do a little cam swap. I have to say...I still like the way the Fueling 594's pulled in the 117"er....lower lift and quiet in the valve train department.
Right now the bike feels very strong the way it is. The ccp's are lower than targeted...but it sure doesn't feel that way. My guess is the extra cubes make the difference. The way it's set up now...it would make a great cross country touring motor. That wasn't exactly what I was aiming for...but I have to admit it does feel impressive the way it sits.
I'm going to have to just ride it like it is for now...the riding season will zip by soon enough and it will give me time to make some decisions on what to do to it...if anything..
Ray, sounds like it's a good running bike to me, I also would just ride her till winter, then decide if you want to change anything.
When I put the 117 in, I reused the Cometic exhaust gaskets in the heads, they looked fine. I ended up with a rear head exhaust leak. So put a new set of the same gaskets on, better, but still a leak. I went through my parts supply, I have S&S exhaust gaskets, OEM thick gaskets, Cometic gaskets, and SE exhaust gaskets. I opted for the SE third time, and they sealed up the leak fine. You may want to try them.
Quote from: groundhawg124 on August 09, 2013, 09:23:23 PM
The web site is www.bikernet.com (http://www.bikernet.com) on the right hand side of there web page click on Sturgis is rockin around the clock thursday news august 8th the S&S article is on page 3..
This is a new case design that is able to go around the HD patent . I will wait and see what they allow for a press release. It has a oiling block and you have to do a little work for oil lines. OR lets see if S&S will show a pic of the rear of the case. :wink: The target was the 124 new style engine. From what I know it will be sold put together as the 124 is now being sold no real changes to that package other than use of a S&S case over the SE version.. Still waiting to see if they release the Big brother to the public.
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 09, 2013, 07:25:41 AM
Nice job by all
I bet the similar shape has a lot to do with the pipe.
145.46 / 124 = 1.173
136.29 / 117 = 1.164
Even with the ccp down by more than 10lbs you're making more HP/CI than the 117"
Is this with the Cyclerama .650 cam?
yes they are the Cyclerama 650 cams.
Wes doesn't advertise these cams. He grinds them himself.
spec's are:
timing @ .053 dur lobe center lift LSA TDC lift
intake 26/58 264 106.0 .650 109.50 .218
exhaust 68/22 270 113.0 .628 109.50 .222 48 overlap
Ray, Do you still have the -2's layin' around?
Ray
As was suggested to me by Durwood re: my 117 build - "Ride it first"
Chasing dyno numbers is an expensive game. I have the reciepts to prove it.
JW
Quote from: Durwood on August 10, 2013, 06:44:19 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 09, 2013, 07:25:41 AM
Nice job by all
I bet the similar shape has a lot to do with the pipe.
145.46 / 124 = 1.173
136.29 / 117 = 1.164
Even with the ccp down by more than 10lbs you're making more HP/CI than the 117"
Is this with the Cyclerama .650 cam?
yes they are the Cyclerama 650 cams.
Wes doesn't advertise these cams. He grinds them himself.
spec's are:
timing @ .053 dur lobe center lift LSA TDC lift
intake 26/58 264 106.0 .650 109.50 .218
exhaust 68/22 270 113.0 .628 109.50 .222 48 overlap
Ray, Do you still have the -2's layin' around?
Being down on CCP is the real number question. IF the 117 where down then how much did you really gain. Or if you bump the 124 do you really think it will make gains the way the 117 did? The point of diminishing returns seems to come up faster than most would like to think. 140+ 124 for a bagger is a stout bike. Spend another 1000 or so by the time you are done to find out that well its making this now and you only gains a couple. I would think that if you bumped the CCP up another 10 PSI you would gain 5/5 if all goes well. which would put you over the 150 mark that day that dyno. End of the day hard to tell a 146 hp bike to a 150 hp bike.. Well maybe it would be faster... Due to your wallet being lighter :smilep: Run it down I always enjoy testing parts. See what it does.. Make sure you make a pull on the bike just before you do the swap.
I'm not chasing dyno #'s...I just fell short of what I was trying to accomplish with Cometic sending me the wrong head gaskets in their kit :doh: It kind of makes me a little mad that I didn't check the thickness of the head gaskets and just had faith that they sent the correct ones...that will never happen again. :angry:
The 662-2's are still boxed up and sitting on the work bench Durwood...I don't have the heart to get rid of them for some reason. A .030 h/g and the -2's would be interesting.
I've had the exhaust on and off 4 times this morning. After stepping back and taking a good look at it...the tranny mounting bracket was throwing the front cylinder head pipe off...which is where I had the leak appear yesterday. I had to put the thru bolt in at an angle and when I would tighten it up and it would straighten itself out...it would pull the front cylinder head pipe downward and put the pipe at the exhaust port at a bad angle. I guess the taller cylinders are to blame. I took the bracket off and long gated the mounting holes so I could slide it forward a touch...so the Zilla mounting tab was directly under the tranny mounting bracket hole. It all seems to line up nicely now.
i have been following this thread and the 117er thread u have.
do think it is worth the time and money to have this 124 over the 117er???
both made nice #s.
the torque seems a little low on the 124?
i hope you get the little bugs worked out and get to enjoy the monster!!!
these kinda threads are fun to watch and learn from.
thanks for sharing
Travis
The torque is 100 @ 2100 rpm...and climbs fairly quickly to the 133 and plains out. It sure doesn't feel weak in the seat. After selling the 117"er...I have $1200.00 out of pocket into this build...including the tune and a $399.00 CompensaVer. Was it worth it...only time will tell. It will take a while to get all the bugs out of it...but it's starting to look promising.
The nice thing about the 124 vs the 117 is that the 124 is, maybe this isn't the right word im looking for but... detuned, simply based on the lower CCP. A lower lift cam could take that even further if you wanted. I like bigger cubes that is slightly detuned for bagger applications with a spot on dyno tune in them. They have the chance to live longer and be less prone to problems and having to replace rings and top end overhauls. This trend that is setting in with these bagger and big motors seems viable to me but only time will tell I guess if they do actually live longer with the CCP on the more conservative side. They still have the long stroke to deal with as well. That said, its hard to leave one alone. I am running box motor (S&S T124) in my own daily driver and its always very tempting to bump that CCP up to 215 or so because they "Angry" feeling you get. The incredible throttle response, that TQ just jumping up instantly and holding on late, those heads filling and clearing those cylinders nicely throughout a wide range of RPM's. I think its ingrained in us to want to push the envelope, especially us gear heads. Another advantage of detuning is running panther piss for fuel if thats all you can get and yet another is some guys dont have access to a tuner that will dial these motors in to ideal settings for VE's and spark which becomes more and more criticl the bigger and tighter these motors are built.
I get asked about my personnel bike and if I need 120tq at 2500. Fully loaded and mama on the back. I don't need it, but hey. Ever see a 283 in a Lincoln, or a 4 banger in a caddy? No. Big cruising, luxury rides need good power.
Nice 124.
Turned out nicely Ray. You are like me and can't leave anything alone for long. I'd be swapping the head gaskets come winter time and then see how it runs. :fish:
Those Cycle Rama cams are not too far different from the S&S 640's spec wise.
How does the engine respond using the bigger throttle body?
Instantly I'll bet.
Quote from: hotbo on August 10, 2013, 09:52:28 AM
i have been following this thread and the 117er thread u have.
do think it is worth the time and money to have this 124 over the 117er???
both made nice #s.
the torque seems a little low on the 124?
i hope you get the little bugs worked out and get to enjoy the monster!!!
these kinda threads are fun to watch and learn from.
thanks for sharing
Travis
As the new owner of Ray's 117 motor, I can honestly say it is a very STRONG motor, and I mean
everywhere in the RPM range. Today I stopped by Ray's house to return his engine stand he graciously lent me, and got to hear the 124 run. All I can say is... WOW! That motor sounds just killer, and I'm saying that after now owning and riding the 117.
Quote from: No Cents on August 10, 2013, 12:07:04 PM
The torque is 100 @ 2100 rpm...and climbs fairly quickly to the 133 and plains out. It sure doesn't feel weak in the seat. After selling the 117"er...I have $1200.00 out of pocket into this build...including the tune and a $399.00 CompensaVer. Was it worth it...only time will tell. It will take a while to get all the bugs out of it...but it's starting to look promising.
thanks for the response. sounds like u have done very well.
i to have chased #s and such spending and spending,gets old just to gain (in my case BBC engines i have a 565 in my jetboat that made 994 at 6600 and i am not satisfied with it not breaking 1000hp mark so i have sunk more thousands into the thing to try to get what i want???
i am also a NA guy among nitrous and Turbo fellers)a few ponies but hey its what we expect in our minds and if they don't do what we imagined then its time to try again,lol!!!
i am doing a 117 for my (03)fatboy this winter.
i hope everything works out for you and like i said both of the motors u did are great.
best of luck Travis :up:
Ray some ask if the 124 is that much better than the 117, you wouldn't know if you hadn't done what you did. It's plain you didn't go backwards, so it's a success IMO. Plus you kept your wrenching and fabricating skills sharp, and had some fun in the process. Good job and many of us have enjoyed your project. :up:
Ray, for what it is worth, that Cycle Rama cam is sort of a hybrid design between the SE 266E and S&S 640. Both should work fine. From what has been posted on this thread, its actually the exhaust that dictates the TQ and HP curve. Even more so than the cam shaft selection. This is good information for the rest of us. The exhaust is critical!!!!! Thanks for all your hard work and your willingness to share it with the rest of us!!!!!
Regards,
-Tutt
Quote from: Deye76 on August 10, 2013, 04:54:41 PM
Ray some ask if the 124 is that much better than the 117, you wouldn't know if you hadn't done what you did. It's plain you didn't go backwards, so it's a success IMO. Plus you kept your wrenching and fabricating skills sharp, and had some fun in the process. Good job and many of us have enjoyed your project. :up:
and
9/9 for 1200.00+ 24 vortex cans , aint too shabby.
i have seen guys spend double that, for 5/5
Yup! Those last few horsepower cost $100 each at least! -Tutt
"Potty mouth", may as well tear it down, order up a set of those new cases and the biggest slugs and barrels they'll support. :potstir:
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on August 10, 2013, 07:46:16 PM
"Potty mouth", may as well tear it down, order up a set of those new cases and the biggest slugs and barrels they'll support. :potstir:
:dgust: :doh:
Nocents, you've learned quite a bit along this journey, and your dedication to learning is mighty commendable. I look forward to the h/g change, and what you come up with for cams and an exhaust. Good luck.
:up:
thanks for all the kind words men...I truly appreciate it! :hug:
This build has had one thing after another go wrong and drive me nuts. I hope I have most of the major issues with it worked out now. I plan to hopefully just ride it the rest of the season and get a good feel for it. It seems to be very strong where it's at now. The throttle response is instant on it...and it runs cool and starts easily with just the touch of the button. That really pleases me.
I was never trying to chase dyno #'s with this build...well...except to make Max's 140 sae club :hyst: ...which it did accomplish.
You can send me my 140 sae T-shirt anytime Max!
There are many options that I will have to ponder on if I do decide to open it back up this winter...but for now it's a rider. :wink:
From reading post 303. Ray, are you thinking about a new exhaust?
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2013, 07:00:24 AM
:up:
thanks for all the kind words men...I truly appreciate it! :hug:
This build has had one thing after another go wrong and drive me nuts. I hope I have most of the major issues with it worked out now. I plan to hopefully just ride it the rest of the season and get a good feel for it. It seems to be very strong where it's at now. The throttle response is instant on it...and it runs cool and starts easily with just the touch of the button. That really pleases me.
I was never trying to chase dyno #'s with this build...well...except to make Max's 140 sae club :hyst: ...which it did accomplish.
You can send me my 140 sae T-shirt anytime Max!
There are many options that I will have to ponder on if I do decide to open it back up this winter...but for now it's a rider. :wink:
Ray, I will see if we can get you a six month extension to your tool box access :wink: Ride on my Brother :chop:
I will probably need them tools within that 6 months. One thing I don't care for is all the valve train noise that this thing has. I might have to try another set of the Fueling 594's in this one too...they seemed to pull strong and were very easy on the valve train and best of all...quiet. These CR 650's like to be in the higher rpm's...and boy do they ever run up there.
I'm open for suggestions on cams men.
"I'm open for suggestions on cams"
Ray, what's Larry say. The 662-2's you have wil be a torquer :up: for quiet & maybe 150 hp Feuling or Mackie .630, - SWAG. :nix:
I'd give the Wegner 2x1 w/ST muff like ready2ride has on his 120" with a cam/HG swap a try this winter.
Disclaimer: easy for me to say it's not my money. :embarrassed:
I already pm'd Larry...I'm waiting to hear back from him. The CR 650's are pretty noisy...like Wood noisy. I can't stand that...they will have to go. The 662-2's I have are an option...and I truly miss my Fueling 594's to tell you the truth.
I think Jim will be seeing me again sooner than he thought :hyst:
Maybe I can earn a discount if I keep changing things :doh:
Put me down for the 662-2 cams with no head gasket change and a Stroker tune.
I would pitch in the first 20 bucks just to see the back to back graph.
"I truly miss my Fueling 594's"
:up: Fueling .630 should be quiet.
So far I've got a few in mind...I wont last very long with the racket the CR 650's make. I've adjusted the p/rods until I'm blue in the face. I have them set @ .140 deep right now and that is as quiet as they are going to get I think...they are as bad as the Wood 408-6's I had one time.
I have a set of 662-2's on the shelf... :scratch:
I do like the Fueling 594's or maybe even their 630's, and the S&S 625's look like a good candidate too.
I'm wanting a lower TDC lift cam (.215 and below) because the 110" heads I have...have .060 milled off them. I'd like to keep plenty of piston to valve clearance.
Ray,
This has been a great build to follow and I'm real glad it's turned out so well. I admire your drive to see what's over the next hill and am grateful you share it so freely. Good on ya! :up:
I got a set of 594's that have about 20 miles dyno time on them. PM if interested.
I need gear drive
Your more than welcome to try my 630's if you want.
They are gear drive.
PM if your interested.
Ray, I personally have become a big fan of the tried and true, S&S 640's. I know they aren't as much of an out of the box, boutique type cam but they damn sure make power and run quiet! No BS, all I hear on my bike is the pipe and the roller rockers. The valve train is very quiet and Im running the stock S&S springs. A set of beehives might be better for power but valve train noise is not an issue with the setup I've got. Just something to consider and truth is the pipe is going to dictate a lot of the curve anyway so why not the 640's if they run quiet?
Heck of a good thread! Lots of data and wisdom....
I myself love my Andrews 64 gear drives.
Ray, maybe you can ask around to the site members for their opinion on the S&S 640 noise level. Independent seems to like his, and they are very close to the Cycle Rama cams you have now. I don't think the S&S 625 would give you the power you want.
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Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2013, 05:29:10 PM
So far I've got a few in mind...I wont last very long with the racket the CR 650's make. I've adjusted the p/rods until I'm blue in the face. I have them set @ .140 deep right now and that is as quiet as they are going to get I think...they are as bad as the Wood 408-6's I had one time.
I have a set of 662-2's on the shelf... :scratch:
I do like the Fueling 594's or maybe even their 630's, and the S&S 625's look like a good candidate too.
I'm wanting a lower TDC lift cam (.215 and below) because the 110" heads I have...have .060 milled off them. I'd like to keep plenty of piston to valve clearance.
I answered your pm Ray.
the 662-2 or mackie 598 is what needs to go in for the compression you have now.
but the noise level might not make you happy .
my 662-2 is louder than your C/R 650 :embarrassed: diff pitch noise ,but noiser none the less.
the 640 is quiet but you dont have enough compression for what you have now. you need 12.0:1 to run those proper. and you need 11.5 or better with the C/R 650. IMO
so bolting in another cam from where your at now ? you need a shorter cam with less duration . and earlier intake close . the fueling 594 is about as long of a cam as I would suggest just based on what I saw.
looking back on this thread . it looks like when you opened the valve pocket up you lost 1 cc
add the diff in the head gasket and you end up at 187 ccp at 600 ft
can you work your magic on the -2 ? if so get er done. :fish:
QuoteI'm not chasing dyno #'s...I just fell short of what I was trying to accomplish with Cometic sending me the wrong head gaskets in their kit
You mean you forgot to check the thickness? :scratch:
Max
I called Dave Mackie Engineering last year...they don't make the 598's in gear drive for my bike.
Mike Jesse kindly offered me a set of Feuling 630's to try...they look interesting.
I'm going to have to do a little more home work.
Yes Max...I didn't check the Cometic h/g thickness :bf: A lesson learned.
I just got off the phone with Luke @ Feuling. He said his 630 cams would be the hot ticket for my 124. He said that if I didn't see an improvement over what the CR 650's did in both hp & tq...to send them back to him and he would give me a full refund. He said they will love the compression I'm at and he swears they will be no where near as noisy as what I'm running now.
Has anyone tried the Feuling 630 cams before...are they noisy?
They are described by Feuling as vicious performers from 2500-6900+ rpms.
:pop: we have used the 574 and they are ver quiet, We are tuning a 124" with 662-2 cams later this week. I will let you know the results...
Luke wants me to test his 630 cams and the bassani pipe in my 120 with 12.3 comp I have the S&S 640 and really have found the plain old 640 to work very well its not sexy and it needs a fair amount of compression but when its right its right my old 124 ran very well. You try it and let me know HA HA
Steve what did you get for numbers with the 120 using the 640 ?
Ray,
The 630's in my 124 are a bit noisy at idle. It's coming from the valve train area, not the cams.
Not objectionable at all. Once it's up and off idle the only thing
I hear from that area is a slight gear whine.
Around town they will pull down to 1800-2000 rpm at a steady pace no problem.
Turn up the wick and they start to talk about 2800.
Pulls hard to 6000.
Luke made me the same offer.
If you are going to try them, might as well throw those HG's in at the same time
and get it over with. :fish: :nix:
:agree:
I ordered a new set off E-Bay. I'll put the .030 h/g's on and I should be right where I want the compression.
I like hearing that they are quiet like my old 594's.
S&%T!
Maybe I should just leave mine in and put the manual releases in the new heads and try them
before the S&S 640's.
Quote from: No Cents on August 12, 2013, 10:22:50 AM
:agree:
I ordered a new set off E-Bay. I'll put the .030 h/g's on and I should be right where I want the compression.
I like hearing that they are quiet like my old 594's.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
:up:
yep...them ones.
I got to at least try them after talking to Luke. You can't deny the mans confidence...when he offers a no questions money back guarantee.
The 594's do what he told you, I won't change them to anything else, it would be pointless. :up:
I bet in your bike the 117 was burning 2nd gear when you hit it hard? With me on mine, I'm getting front wheel air... :chop:
My extra 10 or 15 lbs. makes it hook up... :hyst:
Just asking did you have or try the S&S 640s In that scooter,JMHI I find that when they hit very hard on the bottom it is hard to run a steady speed on the slow end pain in the a$$ to drive only wants to be pinned wide open and may be that's you game, might want to put those 662-2s in that monster Just saying IRONMIKE :potstir:
the 640's aren't an option for me. I don't have the piston to valve clearance needed for their .228 TDC lift.
The Feuling 594 cams had a very nice in town feel...but when you twisted on them they came to life.
I hope the 630's are the same. Luke said they are in town friendly with excellent torque when you pull on them. I believe it was Mike Jesse that has ran them in his 124...and he said he could run them down to 1800-2000 rpm with good in town manners. If that is true and what Luke said that if you twist on them they will pull like a freight train to plus 6900 rpm's...that would more than fit the bill for what I'm looking for. They only have .188 TDC intake lift and .171 exhaust lift. I should be good to go on piston to valve clearances.
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on August 12, 2013, 02:25:11 PM
put those 662-2s in that monster Just saying IRONMIKE :potstir:
:agree:
I know Darren...the -2's are tempting. I've ran them before and I do like the performance side on them...but they are just a touch noisy for me. I could live with it if I had to...but I have to try something a little different.
The CR 650's was a bad choice for sure. They are definitely 1/4 mile cams...not very good for in town manners. They want to be wound up all the time. I should have listened to Larry about them...he warned me. Larry does like the Feuling cams with his port work...hopefully the 630's will highlight his work and come out shining.
I should have the 630's by Thursday...then I'll open her back up and do some more surgery. I got the correct .030 Cometic h/g's in the mail today...so when the cams get here...it's back on the lift and the tool box drawers will be open for business :hyst:
Well all I got to say is good luck and hope the money don't run out, Ask me how I know but owning 3 hopped up baggers will get you there 10,000's of dollars and growing keep up the good work!!! O yea 2 ex wife's a couple of house's and job's you will get there keep a bead on your goal if it was Easy every one wound have it a lot try and never get it!!! :slap:
"if it was Easy every one would have it a lot try and never get it!!!"
So Very True.... :agree:
Can't wait to hear how the 630's work for you. I run 662-2's in my 107 and thinking going 117" this winter. I've looked at those 630's about a hundred times myself ! They don't have the TDC lift of the 662-2 but they have more duration. They have to be quieter and easier on the valve train than the 662's. Time will tell how they do thanks to Ray :chop:
I run the 662-2's in my 131 they have some noise but it is a trade off but talk about some hard hitting pull nobody really needs that kind of hit this is drag bagger $€£+ way over board but it is a feeling you will never for get, And I don't have the gonads to twist it in all the gears but that is me and alittle ole age but the first 3 gears look out 150 plus LBS of torque by 3400 RPM's just insane but fun!!! Tuned by BVBOB and just plainly hauls a$$ so be careful of what you wish for :crash: IRONMIKE
Ray, I suspect that you'll will like the 630 cams. The 630's really look a lot like the 594's that you like a lot, as do I. Also by dropping the head gasket from 0.040 to 0.030, that'll help the lower end grunt a lot, as well as throughout the RPM range. I actually can't wait till you get them in, and tuned. As you said, Luke was confident about your liking them, and he steered you right the first time. :up:
It's a hard decision between the 630's or putting the 662-2's in the 124"er for a try. wfolarry answered my pm tonight. He said the 630's are similar to my current CR 650's...but they will have a little better in town feel. The CR 650's do rev quick and do like it up top for sure. If the 630's will give me some better in town manners and perform like the CR 650's up top...I would have the best of both worlds.
But...those damn 662-2's keep staring at me everytime I walk into the barn.
I've got a big decision to make here for sure. I can't afford to be running a 480 mile round trip to Strokerjlk's too many more times. Plus he is probably tired of looking at this bike.
Should I play it safe and go with the proven 662-2's...or take another chance and hope for the best on the 630's? :banghead:
I think you can answer your own question Ray, why did you take the 662-2 cams out?
:up:
your right Brian...I took the -2's out to get away from the high .660 lift, and the noise...and hopefully doing so gain some valve train longevity...which I think I accomplished on the 117"er.
I only what to do this cam swap one time in the 124"er...so I guess I'll have try the 630's...or I'll never know and always be wondering if what Luke says is true about them. Wfolarry and Luke didn't lie to me about the 594's...I just hope Luke is not sugar coating the 630's.
It just scares me that no one has really posted anything about using the 630's before. I'm pretty sure they have been out for awhile now.
I've read where a lot of people have debated on using them...but in the end they opted to go with a different cam option.
It just makes me wonder if I'm missing something here.
Ray, what about asking Luke for a couple of shops that he's sold them to, and installed in customer bikes, so you can ask them what their impressions are? I mean valve train noise is important to you, as to others too. I don't want REALLY loud valve train noise. He has to work close with a few shops somewhere that he can give you contacts to talk with.
Put the -2 in and see what it sounds like .
You don't need to come see me , unless you want to keep them in .
Cheap and easy .
Ray, Jim's suggestion isn't a bad one at all, a couple hours, and some gaskets, and you can see what they sound like in there.
Try them both Ray.
I'm leaving the 630's in mine and see how the combination works out with the bigger head/T-body.
Heck the amount of wrenching you've done to your bike this year, 2 cam swaps will be easy for ya.
Maybe only 1 depending on which cam you stick into it first. :fish: :potstir:
Ray, this is from the Fueling web site, with a Borezilla. If yours ends up looking like that, = home run. Your numbers should be better than that graph. You have a solid bottom end, ie; very little runout, so I'll bet it'll be OK noise wise.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Thanks for the suggestions men.
I'm going to run the Feuling 594's again with a .030 h/g.
It will put me at:
11.31:1 static compression
9.58:1 corrected
197.4 ccp's
It should make me happy with a quiet valve train and have a nice broad torque curve like the 117"er had.
We just did a 124" with 662-2 cams and used Smith Bros pusrods along with the stage 3 oil pump and the valvetrain is very quiet compared to others with those cams.
Personally I agree with GMR Steve (did I really write that :smilep:) . The SnS 640 is a pretty good all round power maker and it ain't to hard on the valve train compared to other cams.. I've got 2 bikes with that cam in it and they both do pretty for performance and quietness.. SnS runs it in their 124s and they have a warranty to think about..
Max
Quote from: No Cents on August 12, 2013, 02:41:28 PM
the 640's aren't an option for me. I don't have the piston to valve clearance needed for their .228 TDC lift.
The Feuling 594 cams had a very nice in town feel...but when you twisted on them they came to life.
I hope the 630's are the same. Luke said they are in town friendly with excellent torque when you pull on them. I believe it was Mike Jesse that has ran them in his 124...and he said he could run them down to 1800-2000 rpm with good in town manners. If that is true and what Luke said that if you twist on them they will pull like a freight train to plus 6900 rpm's...that would more than fit the bill for what I'm looking for. They only have .188 TDC intake lift and .171 exhaust lift. I should be good to go on piston to valve clearances.
Quote from: Tattoo on August 13, 2013, 08:30:02 AM
We just did a 124" with 662-2 cams and used Smith Bros pusrods along with the stage 3 oil pump and the valvetrain is very quiet compared to others with those cams.
I have basically the same parts...Smith Brothers p/rods, and a DT 3 stage oil pump.
I will slip in the 662-2's 1st...as many have suggested and give them a listen. If they are any tamer in this motor...I'll keep them in and let Jim re-tune it. That will probably make Durwood and a few others happy.
They will put me at this with a .040 h/g:
11.08:1 static
9.68:1 corrected
200.0 ccp's
If they do produce a fairly quiet valve train that I can live with...I will leave them in...if not... I will have the old reliable 594's for back ups.
You gotta do what makes you happy, not anyone else, I suggested the -2's 1st because you have them and secondly because every build that has been on Strokers dyno, with them set up correctly, Rock and Rolled including his 120rx.
Buddy, run what you want, we are all here for ya' when you figure it out :hug:
I know...I've got to please me. I'll just have to open up the tool box and figure out what this thing likes...it apparently doesn't like me too much :hyst:
No Cents why not use a .030" HG to get the squish where it should be? I'm just asking..
Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2013, 12:51:35 PM
I know...I've got to please me. I'll just have to open up the tool box and figure out what this thing likes...it apparently doesn't like me too much :hyst:
As much as your always loving on it, how can it not like you?
You can stand on that cam 11:5 comp mine is set in the 11:2 comp no ping just can't hang on with 16 inch ape's on that bagger,Have to slip my right foot under the brake pedal to stay on but what a ride Good luck no matter what you do we have you back :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2013, 12:25:05 PM
Quote from: Tattoo on August 13, 2013, 08:30:02 AM
We just did a 124" with 662-2 cams and used Smith Bros pusrods along with the stage 3 oil pump and the valvetrain is very quiet compared to others with those cams.
I have basically the same parts...Smith Brothers p/rods, and a DT 3 stage oil pump.
I will slip in the 662-2's 1st...as many have suggested and give them a listen. If they are any tamer in this motor...I'll keep them in and let Jim re-tune it. That will probably make Durwood and a few others happy.
They will put me at this with a .040 h/g:
11.08:1 static
9.68:1 corrected
200.0 ccp's
If they do produce a fairly quiet valve train that I can live with...I will leave them in...if not... I will have the old reliable 594's for back ups.
:up: :up:
Quote from: Durwood on August 13, 2013, 12:31:20 PM
You gotta do what makes you happy, not anyone else, I suggested the -2's 1st because you have them and secondly because every build that has been on Strokers dyno, with them set up correctly, Rock and Rolled including his 120rx.
Buddy, run what you want, we are all here for ya' when you figure it out :hug:
I'm running the 662-2 in the 120 inch,200ccp , smiths pushrods , must say there quiet and make my bagger rock. If more power is needed in the future, wont be a cam change. Raise the backbone , and install either a S&S 145 or R&R 155!! :smiled: :smilep:
well men...I got the motor tore back down to looking at the pistons. The camplate is back in with the 662-2's behind it. I went to install the outer gears and dropped the damn keyway that sits on the rear cam, that the big gear slides over. It hit the floor and bounced...where it landed I don't have a clue. It vanished. I'm old and blind :hyst:
Anyone know where I can buy another key at...maybe a local auto parts or hardware store?
S&S diagram sheet says it's a .188 X .155 X .57 size key.
So now I'm dead in the water until I get another key. I'm sure it will show up as soon as I'm not looking for it and the bike is buttoned back up. :banghead:
I made good time dis-assembling it. I had the heads sitting on the work bench in two hours.
Tattoo...I'm going to run a .030 h/g with the -2 cams.
It should put me at:
11.31:1
9.87:1 corrected
205.2 ccp's
Jim might like tuning this one a little better.
I made a key out of .250 flat stock steel. I cut it out and ground it down to S&S measurements. The cam chest is all buttoned up now.
:pop:
Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2013, 06:58:30 PM
The camplate is back in with the 662-2's behind it.
Tattoo...I'm going to run a .030 h/g with the -2 cams.
It should put me at:
11.31:1
9.87:1 corrected
205.2 ccp's
Jim might like tuning this one a little better.
Now, I am counting the minutes to see what the dyno reports. :up: :up:
Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2013, 06:58:30 PM
well men...I got the motor tore back down to looking at the pistons. The camplate is back in with the 662-2's behind it. I went to install the outer gears and dropped the damn keyway that sits on the rear cam, that the big gear slides over. It hit the floor and bounced...where it landed I don't have a clue. It vanished. I'm old and blind :hyst:
Anyone know where I can buy another key at...maybe a local auto parts or hardware store?
S&S diagram sheet says it's a .188 X .155 X .57 size key.
So now I'm dead in the water until I get another key. I'm sure it will show up as soon as I'm not looking for it and the bike is buttoned back up. :banghead:
I made good time dis-assembling it. I had the heads sitting on the work bench in two hours.
Tattoo...I'm going to run a .030 h/g with the -2 cams.
It should put me at:
11.31:1
9.87:1 corrected
205.2 ccp's
Jim might like tuning this one a little better.
I think this is gonna be a winner Ray! That squeeze with that cam will shine.
I have it in my 117 with 205 ccp. I was going to get Jim to tune mine also but then ran into trouble with my TTS and now I'm thinking I'm going to bump the compression up to 11.5 to take full advantage of it.
The Dan Thayer pump combined with the Gaterman lifters should keep the valve train noise to a minimum. I get a feeling you'll be running this setup at least for a while. Maybe this is what the motor wanted and why you hav had to fight this thing to make I a go. Sometimes the builds "talk to you" and they don't go together until "things are right" and then everything just seems to fall in place. When things don't go together like they should, there's usually a reason, so to speak. This outta be good!
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on August 14, 2013, 09:18:18 AM
The Dan Thayer pump combined with the Gaterman lifters should keep the valve train noise to a minimum. I get a feeling you'll be running this setup at least for a while. Maybe this is what the motor wanted and why you hav had to fight this thing to make I a go. Sometimes the builds "talk to you" and they don't go together until "things are right" and then everything just seems to fall in place. When things don't go together like they should, there's usually a reason, so to speak. This outta be good!
:up: :up: When they seem to wear at your last nerve, then... :chop:
the local hardware store had the right key size...it is grade 5...I got lucky. I just have to cut it to length. I'll pull it back apart and put in the proper key. The steel I made the one out of last night is very hard steel.
It's amazing what an old blind guy can see in the daylight. I stopped by the house @ lunch time. I opened the barn door up and looked down. There it was laying on the floor by the door...a good 10' from the bike lift.
I'll pull the cam cover off when I get home and put the S&S key back in.
grrr ray, ya got me thinkin I should try the HQ cams....first I think I should try a different pipe. I am happy with the peak numbers, but I want to fix my tq curve!
well men...I got the 662-2's in and fired it up. It shocked the hell out of me. This thing has put up a fight the whole time...until tonight. The valve train in this motor with the 662-2's is as quiet as a stock bike :doh: ...who would of ever thunk it. :nix:
It fired right up and surrendered to me.
Oh...I found the exhaust leak also that I was chasing for over a week. One of the plugs that Jim installed in the head pipe for the front cylinder must of vibrated out. When I took the heat shields off the pipe to get it ready for Jim...I seen the empty hole and said...damn theres my leak. :banghead:
The old girl has finally submitted and come around. :wink:
I think with the clutch fixed and the -2's in...we might see a different program with it when Jim gets done working his magic.
So you now have a bigger cam in there and it's not making valve train noise. = Winner!
You have to use some sticks that will do justice to Larry's head work.
Quote from: jam65 on August 14, 2013, 06:57:13 PM
So you now have a bigger cam in there and it's not making valve train noise. = Winner!
the valve train is quiet as a church mouse...I couldn't believe it. I guess she was holding out for them.
Great news Ray! What's next? LOL
Figured so, real good high volume pump and top notch lifters=quiet valve train. :up:
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on August 14, 2013, 07:34:10 PM
Figured so, real good high volume pump and top notch lifters=quiet valve train. :up:
but the C/R cams were noisy :scratch:
same pump same lifters
I didnt see any complaint about noise, guess I missed that. I thought he just wasn't happy with the low RPM mannerisms and it was down a touch on power.
the CR 650's were a touch noisy. These 662-2's are extremely quiet...definitely quieter than the 650's with the same oil pump and lifters.
The 650's didn't like to be under 2400 rpm's for some reason. They liked to be twisted on. They ran great above that...and I had no complaints there.
I do ride in town often...so my goal is to have something a little more in town friendly. The bike could have been stronger...but I'm not wanting a dyno shoot out 1/4 mile motor...just a strong reliable rider.
I think the dyno sheet will be a little prettier this next go around with the -2's and a little more ccp's. :embarrassed:
:up: glad that you did try them, good suggestion by Jim. Looking forward to seeing what Jim gets out of them with the compression change too. I think the CR cams would have felt better in the lower end with more compression.
Could you get any feel for how it felt going down the road with those cams? I realize it needs tuned, but should be somewhat close from the previous tune.
I got it buttoned up late last night...so l didn't want to take it out for a ride and play with all the deers around here.
I called Jim yesterday and he said to go ahead and ride it...if I found a spot it didn't like...just don't ride in that area.
I rode it into work this morning and it ran fine everywhere I tried it.
No stumbling or hesitation anywhere.
It actually ran better than it ever has so far...even with needing a proper.tune for the -2's.
Quote from: No Cents on August 15, 2013, 06:14:51 AM
I got it buttoned up late last night...so l didn't want to take it out for a ride and play with all the deers around here.
I called Jim yesterday and he said to go ahead and ride it...if I found a spot it didn't like...just don't ride in that area.
I rode it into work this morning and it ran fine everywhere I tried it.
No stumbling or hesitation anywhere.
It actually ran better than it ever has so far...even with needing a proper.tune for the -2's.
Smart move, I have the same type area that you do, farm land and deer everywhere, I have one friend in the hospital from a recent crash, don't need another in there.
Good to hear that Ray, you and i like the same type of ride, we want the power, well, everywhere.... :bike:
Well can I say TOLD you so.Them's some torque/ power makin cams,And how's the noise,And now me shut up!!! :up: :beer: :wink:
i cant wait to see how the 662-2 's work in my 120" build.
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on August 15, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
Well can I say TOLD you so.Them's some torque/ power makin cams,And how's the noise,And now me shut up!!! :up: :beer: :wink:
:up:
yep...she bounces off the rev limiter like a champ in the first 3 gears now...and runs thru town @ 1800 rpm without lugging!
Quote from: No Cents on August 15, 2013, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on August 15, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
Well can I say TOLD you so.Them's some torque/ power makin cams,And how's the noise,And now me shut up!!! :up: :beer: :wink:
:up:
yep...she bounces off the rev limiter like a champ in the first 3 gears now...and runs thru town @ 1800 rpm without lugging!
Like a 600 caterpillar motor :up:
Durwood offered me a +4 key...I might just have to try it. This thing feels loaded and cocked the way it is right now. I think the +4 key would put the ccp's right around the 210 area.
It should be around 205 ccp's the way it is right now.
My concern is how well will it tune out with the +4 key?
The corrected compression bump goes from 9.87:1 to 10.09:1.
It seems like a major jump for just changing the key out...this was all according to the Big Boyz calculator.
Quote from: No Cents on August 16, 2013, 04:01:27 AM
Durwood offered me a +4 key...I might just have to try it. This thing feels loaded and cocked the way it is right now. I think the +4 key would put the ccp's right around the 210 area.
It should be around 205 ccp's the way it is right now.
My concern is how well will it tune out with the +4 key?
The corrected compression bump goes from 9.87:1 to 10.09:1.
It seems like a major jump for just changing the key out...this was all according to the Big Boyz calculator.
I offered it to everyone, you are the 8 up guy that wants to use it.. :smileo:
Hey Ray. Have you by chance put a compression tester on it yet?
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 16, 2013, 05:46:12 AM
Hey Ray. Have you by chance put a compression tester on it yet?
Yeah Ray, have you checked it :pop:
I've been running the 662-2 and love the power everywhere @ 11.25. Only Neg I have is after 6-8K miles the lifters start talking and the low speed manerisms below 15mph can get anoying after a year or so. I end up swapping lifters out at 8K. The set of gaterman's I have in there now have almost 8K on them are still quiet compared to the S&S and Feulings I have had.
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 16, 2013, 05:46:12 AM
Hey Ray. Have you by chance put a compression tester on it yet?
that's one tool I do not have.
Dang. I'm in Harrison right now. If I knew I would have shared mine with ya. It's a real nice Snap-on gauge.
I was by the local Harbor Freight store today so I bought a compression tester. Both cylinders read almost the same on the guage...but I don't know how to convert it into ccp's.
The motor was slightly warm...but not cold.
I removed the plugs and installed them back into the plug wires and grounded them...then held the butterfly fully open in the throttle body with the throttle wide open...and cranked the motor over until it didn't read any higher. Did I do it right?
Front cylinder
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
rear cylinder
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Shouldn't the pressure be over 180# and over 205# with the different cams. Something not right here... Compression releases?
signed....BUBBIE
If you had the comp realeases dissabled then I think you have a bad gauge, look at reply 234 you had 190 with the other cams. Hope you saved your receipt...
Yes I have ACR's...I didn't think of that. I might have to unplug them and try it again.
Unplug the ACR's, if DBW, hold butterfly open. No math involved. What the gauge reads in PSI it's your Cold Cranking Pressure in PSI.
:up:
thanks...I'll give it another try with the ACR's unplugged.
I guess I bought a bad guage...I was a cheapo...it was only $20.00 for the kit on sale. I guess I got what I paid for.
I unplugged the ACR's and it was only 150 on each cylinder this time. I'll take it back tomorrow and buy a good one somewhere.
:rose:
One thing for sure No Cents...
They are really close to EVEN from front to back. :up:
signed....BUBBIE
Ray save the $$$,
When strokerjlk does the new tune he will let you know what the ccp really is, oh and we get to see the new chart :teeth:
I had to run a few errands...so I took back the junk guage and picked up one at an auto parts store. I don't know how accurate this one is...but it's definitely better than the 1st one. Both cylinders show just about the same.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Like what was said. Front and rear being equal is most important. Have heard Jim complain about his gauge as well.
Is with the .030 or .040 head gasket?
Quote from: OzyMax on August 16, 2013, 05:51:36 PM
Ray save the $$$,
When strokerjlk does the new tune he will let you know what the ccp really is, oh and we get to see the new chart :teeth:
yeah I will check it . nothing wrong with my gauge
I measured twice...and cut once this time :hyst:
it's a .030 h/g
My 120 ccp was exactly that when it was first complete. Now after a few months, its about 201. Also used the HB gauge.
well guys, here's how the bike did today. I rode this thing 206 miles today in a benefit run for a boy that got killed at the young tender age of 18. It thumped it's way into the park where the ride was starting from and immediately caught ever gearheads ears and eyes. I parked the bike and walked away. It drew a crowd around it instantly. People were actually drooling over the motor. I caught people bending over taking pictures of it :hyst: I had so many questions asked about it...it was wearing me out trying to answer all of them.
I guess the old girl has finally went into full total submission...bout damn time!
It ran flawlessly all day long, no pinging, ran cool, and smooth, with instant power delivery from anywhere in the rpm band I twisted the wick from.
The benefit ride went 1/2 way and stopped in the infield of Kentucky Speedway. Leaving the speedway I decided to leave them a little remembrance of the 124"er. I did a roll on dump at around 4K...it instantly white smoked the rear tire...sliding sideways and bouncing it off the rev limiter the whole time. The group that I was riding with said it was a very impressive display of melting the tire :unsure:
Seemed that the ones that seen it out of the 490 rider pack...were like in awe. She's a runner...for sure!
This is the strongest this bike has ever ran...it should do a little better this next go around on Jim's dyno. :party:
I really shouldn't read this type of thread. Dangerous for my wallet! Great Job!
JW
really good to hear you have got it to where you intended it to be and even better that you are enjoying it the way you thought you could
So , what brand of tires do you run Ray ?
Or , they're not going to be on there long enough to matter?
:up:
I think I can now say; TOLD YOU SO!! :hyst: :up: :chop:
1st off...I want to apologize for telling you's about the burn out I did. :doh: It does seem a little over the top after re-reading my post...and it was definitely not very tasteful of me to say. :bf:
I'm constantly getting coaxed into doing a burn out by a couple of the guys I ride with...they do seem to have an effect on me and they are usually able to talk me into testing the rear tire for them...or at least it seems. :angry:
This is not my everyday riding style...but it appears this motor has no problem what so ever to be able to quickly bust the rear tire loose at will.
Sorry if it sounded like bragging...that's not me. :embarrassed:
If I owned your bike and didn't do a burnout I think I'd need a slap.
Awsome bike, you should enjoy it!
I know the one doing the coaxing , he's an Angel . :hyst:
Now now much air did you get :fish:
Brag away, you've been breaking your butt getting this thing setup just right for YOU.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 18, 2013, 06:37:53 AM
I know the one doing the coaxing , he's an Angel . :hyst:
Now now much air did you get :fish:
yes...he is one of them guys :hyst:
Leaving Randy's house the other day...I did bounce it off the rev limiter thru 1st and banged 2nd with it still on the limiter. The front tire was in the air thru 2nd gear while the rev limiter was banging. I grabbed 3rd and it sit the front tire down while the back tire was still spinning. I backed it down because I was running out of road.
That's when I said "holy sh*t"...this thing is wicked. :wink:
Do I need to send you my gopro with a mount so we can get a damn running/burnout/wheelie video?? I'm calling shenanigans, prove it! :potstir:
I'll see what I can do...there is no bluff to call here...she launch's like a beast. I just might have to have someone video it for you...after I get it back from Jim tuning it with these 662-2's in it.
I wouldn't want to cheat you and not be able to show you it's full potential :embarrassed:
Can't say it enough. Love the 662-2's in my 124". Power in abundance and everywhere. Over 33,000 on mine so far and still strong as it ever was. Even though it has the RB BH spyder that everyone hates, I love it. Glad yours is rocking you Ray, Many more burn outs to you!
here is a video of the bike as it sits right now
http://youtu.be/YL4Op3yu2YU (http://youtu.be/YL4Op3yu2YU)
Truly a work of art Ray. Sounds angry! -Tutt
Sounds BadAss for sure!!!
Quote from: No Cents on August 18, 2013, 09:44:57 AM
here is a video of the bike as it sits right now
http://youtu.be/YL4Op3yu2YU (http://youtu.be/YL4Op3yu2YU)
very nice looking bike and sounds very quiet mechanically.
You should ride it the way you feel at the time, if that includes burnouts or hitting the rev limiter as long as it's safe enough do it. It's your bike, you built it now enjoy all it has to offer, no need to apologize for that or being excited enough to tell others.
Definitely inspiring what can be achieved from home with the right plan and help, hope mine turns out to give me a similar feeling.
Well done to you Ray.
:up:
thanks men...I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel finally.
Quote from: No Cents on August 18, 2013, 04:50:57 PM
:up:
thanks men...I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel finally.
Yeah, it's the garage light shining on the new Pro charger :hyst:
I just found the plus 4 key and it's ready to mail, are you sure you want it? Sounds like the 124"er is doing fine as is.
what Pro Charger :nix: ...shhhh...it's a secret...or at least it use to be :gob: :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on August 18, 2013, 07:15:00 PM
what Pro Charger :nix: ...shhhh...it's a secret...or at least it use to be :gob: :hyst:
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: Oh yeah! LOL!
:hyst:
it's a running joke with Darren. There is no Pro Charger planned for the future...I'm just 8-up with it...not crazy! :banghead:
Bike sounds sick. Can't wait to see the final numbers after it goes to Jim again.
The old girl is back off to Strokerjlk's on Wednesday for another round on his dyno.
We'll see how she does this time...hopefully it will do a little better this time with the clutch working properly...and with a touch more compression. :embarrassed:
Speaking about the Charger,I called frank at Draggo's about one for a bike of mine and just came to a no answer,Way more than what is needed and it was only another 5000.00 plus to take it well over 200 HP, on my 131 just way to much for me but I was going for the look(Ha,HA,HA) hope that bad a$$ scooter works out for you. :wink:
:agree:
5K is a hard pill to swallow for a hair dryer. But...nice gains to be made from a low compression motor...but I've always liked a motor with just a touch of compression in it...probably too much for a Pro Charger system.
Rigid Thumper said he will take 3K for his Pro Charger Mike! :potstir: It should bolt right on that 131 :unsure:
Quote from: No Cents on August 19, 2013, 05:53:20 PM
The old girl is back off to Strokerjlk's on Wednesday for another round on his dyno.
We'll see how she does this time...hopefully it will do a little better this time with the clutch working properly...and with a touch more compression. :embarrassed:
:pop: I don't think I've ever been so excited about someone else's build. lol. Just dropped my FXDX off with Brain at Valley Racing today for a tune and some new tires. Can't wait for the results.
Maybe he can tell me alittle about that hair dryer? Or send me a message behind the curtain,Man what the hell am I thinkin,Than For sure I need a chain conv.And I would have to run real low boost I'm at 11.2 or so would have to maybe go back to lower cam's 662-2's in right now from frank he is the one that turned me on to them,I was looking at the 660SM cams but frank said no so you know the rest,And he had done some 131's with the 662-2's so we got to thinkin and if that was not ENUFF we could slap his blower on and at that time pulling somewhere in the 215HP like holy chit this is or was a street bike at one time now just a money pit had to buy other bikes to ride normal if I can say that, but hard to ride the slow one's now but you can stay out of jail,And as of right now I really have way more than a guy needs right now it is fun to ride for awhile but can't ride it Normal just can't it want to just haul a$$ all the time, that's why you see guys building these monsters,And I have been there wondering if they really know what they are in for? I had BVBOB build me and tune my other two 103's for touring and they can run cross country,So can the Drag Bagger but it will BEAT the day lights out of you I'm getting past that point in my life but that's me!And it's not my favorite bike any longer?Sorry for Rambling on this is you post not mine! PS BVBOB tuned this one too,Ask him it plainly hauls the mail he rode it. :bike: Ride safe my friend!!
I don't know Mike, had another 131 in here last friday, you fell a notch, might want to reconsider some mods, lol
Dam it BOB,Well you know winter is on its way,we'll have to chat later! :wink:
:oops:
Bob...I think I'm giving Mike idea's and making his wallet lighter :hyst:
lighter does equal quicker!
Quote from: BVHOG on August 20, 2013, 06:25:59 PM
I don't know Mike, had another 131 in here last friday, you fell a notch, might want to reconsider some mods, lol
Your a bad bad man :hyst:
Time for the drum roll?
I just got back from dropping the bike off @ Strokerjlk's for round two on his dyno.
Up & back...it's about a 10 hour drive for me.
I guess we will know soon...if it's road worthy. :embarrassed:
She'll be fine if not your wallet is going to get alittle lighter :potstir: Me on the other hand I have full control of my self there fore my wallet as far As I see will be growing in size if my Calculation's are correct??? :hyst:
wish u the best outcome! :beer:
Green is The 117er
Blue is 124er with cycle Rama 650
Red is 124 er t man 662 -2
Nope I can't get The tq up after 4200.
Brought the bottom way up with some tuning though . It was a flat 135 tq .at 4000-4200 when I started .
Give me another day to finalize the idle / cruise areas ray and she's done .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-22.jpg)
Wow, that says a lot about that T-Man cam!!!! Thinking some other exhaust might be needed here, which is not so unusual with these large, high performance builds. :bike: -Tutt
That's really strange at 4500. What do you think is causing that? What's in it for a clutch?
A quieter valve train and a better looking chart !
You made the right call Ray .
:up:
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
Nice to see what the Dragula Fang would do!!
Quote from: No Cents on August 21, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
That's because it's hitting hard down low now
It's the pipe cam / combo . Arm jerker catapillar motor
Yup, pipe issue in my book. -Tutt
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-23.jpg)
I could have left it like this . This Is with the Afr dialed in and the cycle Rama timing .
Nice pretty tq graph with 140 hp .
But I went after timing and brought it up . Now we see how the zilla really works
I'd ride it Ray. :bike:
Quote from: mike jesse on August 21, 2013, 04:48:49 PM
I'd ride it Ray. :bike:
that's the plan. It looks to be making good power where I do most of my riding...just not a bunch up top.
The -2's pull hard off the bottom and in middle for sure.
The thing that impressed me was how quiet they are in the motor vs them in the 117.
Hey Ray that cam does hit very hard on the bottom mine does the same thing,only thing diff. Is I'm running a HO Pro pipe mine carrys it alittle farther but my torque starts to slowly fades to just about 135/140 LBS @5250 but the HP still climbing a bit and starts to fade @5700 RPM' So when I run it I pull it to 5500 and shift for the frist 3 gears than back out of it, Becauce at that gear and RPM's your haul a$$ in very short order!!! :crash:
Quotejust not a bunch up top.
you wont miss a thing.
your cycle rama cam pulled up one 145 hp run. it made 143hp run after run.
the 662-1 pulls up 141 hp run after run.
it took some work to bring the bottom end up. thats what your gonna feel different
140 square...ain't too shabby for a barn built motor. It wont set no world records...but it should be fun to ride.
I can't image it with more bottom end...it was plenty strong running the Cyclerama 650 cam tune on the bottom...with the 662-2's installed in it.
Now with more bottom end torque...I will probably have to be buying a new rear tire before fall gets here. :hyst:
Now you and Jim can bust'em off side x side and see who's got what. :bike:
Plenty of flat and straight stuff around him. :scoot:
Quote from: autoworker on August 21, 2013, 06:06:18 PM
Now you and Jim can bust'em off side x side and see who's got what. :bike:
Plenty of flat and straight stuff around him. :scoot:
Yeah.. Flatlanders.. :wink:
Max
Quote from: No Cents on August 21, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
Da exhaust wants an experiment.
Quote from: WI Bob on August 21, 2013, 07:50:46 PM
Quote from: No Cents on August 21, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
Da exhaust wants an experiment.
you and Andy are probably right about the exhaust. The Fang would be interesting...but I cant afford to run the bike back and forth to Jim's for exhaust testing. I'll have to live with what I got for now.
With the Cyclerama cam tune...I never did feel a stumble that it shows up on the graph. It revs so quick from the bottom to the rev limiter that it felt better than anything I had ever ridden before. I was impressed with that. The -2 cams definitely made it more in town friendlier down low, and it seemed to have stump pulling power associated with them. The hp line seems to be headed up in the right direction off the bottom quickly...but it hits that 4500 rpm stumble and doesn't recover well. I still dont think it hit my compression goal for some reason. I might look into having a set of CP domed pistons made this winter...and get the compression up where I want it. I'll have to debate that one. It felt like it had plenty of ass to it before dropping it off for the last re-tune.
I do most of my riding under 5K...so the occasional rev limiter bounce on this motor should suit my riding style perfect. I will really enjoy having the tq on bottom and mid range areas.
I looked at Jim's 1st graph again this morning...it almost made 142 SAE square. I think I'll enjoy this one for a little while.
Winter might make my idle hands want to do a little more to it. :doh:
there is no stumble to feel. your getting every bit of what the pipe will allow.
maybe max can explain the under/over exhausting of the pipe better than me. :teeth:
here ya go ...fixed it
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-24.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-24.jpg.html)
had a request for the ccp and run #6 and run #22 on the same sheet.
it actually sat at 200 ccp for a while . by the time i snapped the pic it dropped 1 or 2 ccp
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-27.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-27.jpg.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-26.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-26.jpg.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-28.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-28.jpg.html)
run # 3 blue ...is as it was delivered with the cycle Rama tune ,with 662-2 cams .
run #6 Red is after AFR ( ve's) were calibrated
run # 22 Brown is as it sits now .
:up: Looks good!!
Quotemaybe max can explain the under/over exhausting of the pipe better than me. :teeth:
prolly not but I would suspect that the issue is the exhaust.. :wink: Definately got some HP/tq there... tho
Max
I'm interested in hearing what pipe it would take to help Rays motor. I always thought the zilla was a good choice on big motors. What are its limits? Is the collector to far from the port? Collector diameter? Head pipe length to long or short?
I'm all ears to this topic because exhaust tuning has had my attention for quite some time now but I can't seem to figure out how to approach wave tuning, over exhausting, etc. :slap:
It doesn't help that I have this same pipe/cam combo on my 117. Haven't had it tuned or even on a dyno with this combo.
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 22, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
I'm interested in hearing what pipe it would take to help Rays motor. I always thought the zilla was a good choice on big motors. What are its limits? Is the collector to far from the port? Collector diameter? Head pipe length to long or short?
I'm all ears to this topic because exhaust tuning has had my attention for quite some time now but I can't seem to figure out how to approach wave tuning, over exhausting, etc. :slap:
It doesn't help that I have this same pipe/cam combo on my 117. Haven't had it tuned or even on a dyno with this combo.
:agree:
me too...I'm all ears
I dunno, I have the Boarzilla on my 120R with the 662-2 cams and the dyno showed around 143-145 HP/TQ with a decent curve. I need to find that sheet and post it up...
Heads were stock other than being milled a little to bump compression and .030" gasket. Cranks around 208 PSI.
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 22, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
I'm interested in hearing what pipe it would take to help Rays motor. I always thought the zilla was a good choice on big motors. What are its limits? Is the collector to far from the port? Collector diameter? Head pipe length to long or short?
I'm all ears to this topic because exhaust tuning has had my attention for quite some time now but I can't seem to figure out how to approach wave tuning, over exhausting, etc. :slap:
It doesn't help that I have this same pipe/cam combo on my 117. Haven't had it tuned or even on a dyno with this combo.
I don't exactly know but the extra displacement coupled with something like pipe length to a slighty different baffle design. Not all zillas are made the same.. There are up to 08 bagger, 09-up bagger, softail, dyna pre 6 and post 6.. It doesn't take much to make the pipe behave different.. Add an inch here, take a way one there.. It may be that some peak flow number has been crossed and some sort of turbulence in the pipe ensued.. The thing to do is change the pipe / baffle and see if the step moves or goes away.
Max
On my HO pipe I added 6" to the end to clear my bags,you know what they say longer is better with the pipe 😎
Quote from: No Cents on August 22, 2013, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 22, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
I'm interested in hearing what pipe it would take to help Rays motor. I always thought the zilla was a good choice on big motors. What are its limits? Is the collector to far from the port? Collector diameter? Head pipe length to long or short?
I'm all ears to this topic because exhaust tuning has had my attention for quite some time now but I can't seem to figure out how to approach wave tuning, over exhausting, etc. :slap:
It doesn't help that I have this same pipe/cam combo on my 117. Haven't had it tuned or even on a dyno with this combo.
:agree:
me too...I'm all ears
Why don't you try the 5" trapp can?
Took some doing but I got the fang 3.05 muffler on the zilla headpipe .
I have seen enough to tell , it will take the dip out for the dip police .
It will sacrifice the peak tq a few . With a little tuning it would pick the hp up on the big end another 2-3 . Not worth the time /effort / money .
The trapp ain't gonna make anymore hp . And probably lose tq .
I can de-tune it a little and make the graph real smooth though . It would make a pretty 138/138 sheet .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-29.jpg)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-30.jpg)
Quote from: No Cents on August 21, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
Looks like it's pulling fine from here. You'll never feel it in the pants. The HP keeps climbing just fine.
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 22, 2013, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: No Cents on August 21, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
looks like it's falling on it's face @ 4500 for some reason :scratch:
Looks like it's pulling fine from here. You'll never feel it in the pants. The HP keeps climbing just fine.
I agree, Jim should have let him ride it before he ever saw the sheet, All I can say Ray, is you better hang on!!! I highly recommend a riders back rest... :hyst:
I don't know if would apply but I think Drago's offers a money back guarantee if his pipe doesn't make more power.
Quote from: HighLiner on August 22, 2013, 12:40:54 PM
I don't know if would apply but I think Drago's offers a money back guarantee if his pipe doesn't make more power.
This isn't about that .
It's easy to see the ZILLA headpipe with FANG muffler will make more hp than the zilla exhaust .
So yes a fang would make a couple more HP on rays bike . Is it worth the price ? Hell no .
I just rode the bike . WOW it's a azz load of fun. Ray you can pick it up next week. :hyst:
Your gonna have to Velcro your azz to the solo seat now .
I ain't kidding ... To launch the is thing in the first 2 gears , there is no way to let it eat all the way and stay on the seat.
You need to do your seat like this
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-17.jpg)
I thought the Fang pipe baffle was louvered and the zilla was perforated..
Max
Even on Dan's (TXCHOP) 117" powerhouse they modified the Wegner exhaust to max out it's potential. It's all part of the game, you just need to decide when it's time to call the final play and make the score final...
K.
well men...it is basically a 142 square motor off the drum. It will fulfill my needs for now...for sure. If I need more than that on the street...I must be 8-up...wait a minute...I already am :hyst:
Thanks for another excellent tune Jim...I'll bring you another case of your favorite beverage along with me to drop off when I pick the bike up tomorrow.
I'm thinking that this motor just fell a little short in the compression department for what I originally sat out for. I wanted 11.32:1 and I think I'm right @ 11.11:1 now. I said in the beginning that all the figures were done on the Big Boyz calculator. Either the pistons are not cc'ing out...or the heads. I'm leaning more towards the pistons. Larry said he got the heads where I wanted them...so I would have to believe him. I had to open up the valve pockets a little on the pistons intakes for clearance...which according to the B/B calculator, it says I must of lost 2 cc's on them to get me at the 200 ccp's that Jim is showing.
I'll have to investigate into the possibilities of getting a set of domed CP pistons for this motor later on if I need to get more 8-up with it.
Or maybe a set of S&S B2's with their domed piston to match :nix:
Right now...142 SAE hp/tq and 200 ccp's sounds like a nice everyday rider to me. :wink:
Now you gotta put it on the bottle... :soda:
He isn't going to need a bottle, first he is going to have to get used to it on the bottom end first Strokerjlk isn't bull chitin when he tells you about the first couple of gears,they hit hard and fast,I was think maybe a harness if you get it hooked up,PWmorris said it best practice,practice,practice, than look out boys there might be a Boss in town :wink:
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 22, 2013, 01:15:58 PM
I thought the Fang pipe baffle was louvered and the zilla was perforated..
Max
you are correct
Quote from: No Cents on August 22, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
well men...it is basically a 142 square motor off the drum. It will fulfill my needs for now...for sure. If I need more than that on the street...I must be 8-up...wait a minute...I already am :hyst:
Thanks for another excellent tune Jim...I'll bring you another case of your favorite beverage along with me to drop off when I pick the bike up tomorrow.
I'm thinking that this motor just fell a little short in the compression department for what I originally sat out for. I wanted 11.32:1 and I think I'm right @ 11.11:1 now. I said in the beginning that all the figures were done on the Big Boyz calculator. Either the pistons are not cc'ing out...or the heads. I'm leaning more towards the pistons. Larry said he got the heads where I wanted them...so I would have to believe him. I had to open up the valve pockets a little on the pistons intakes for clearance...which according to the B/B calculator, it says I must of lost 2 cc's on them to get me at the 200 ccp's that Jim is showing.
I'll have to investigate into the possibilities of getting a set of domed CP pistons for this motor later on if I need to get more 8-up with it.
Or maybe a set of S&S B2's with their domed piston to match :nix:
Right now...142 SAE hp/tq and 200 ccp's sounds like a nice everyday rider to me. :wink:
dont get caught up in the 2-3 hp game!
you have a very nice build and tuned bike.it will be a handful for sure.
forget about the sheet.
its hard to do,i know every time i dyno something and it falls short(which is normal for me)
i just get all caught up in the # game!!! happens every time.
the #s are only a small equation to the entire tune and build.
you made just a tad more power with a cam swap but gained less motor noise and a better behaving bike.WIN WIN.
i hope you enjoy your bike and stay positive.
Travis :beer:
Actually he lost 3 hp and gained 8 tq
He moved this power band way to the left . And didn't lose anything below 5250
The green is the 117er disregard
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-22.jpg)
I wouldn't disregaurd the 117'er, he picked up 14 torque and 9 horse over it, and only spent $1200 to get there after selling the other engine...Nice gain :up:
I know guys that have spent more for less..Good on ya Ray :beer:
Now send me the tool box keys again :hyst:
Looks really good Ray! :up:
If you do look for some custom CP domes this winter, I'd be so curious to see how the Feuling 630's would run at 12:1 compression. :wink:
:pop: I would like to see that as well. I got my 120" project set at 11:5.1 with the 662-2 cams. I hope its not to much.
Quote from: No Cents on August 22, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
Right now...142 SAE hp/tq and 200 ccp's sounds like a nice everyday rider to me. :wink:
Yeah but like me after two weeks you'll be looking for more :wink:
Now send me the tool box keys again :hyst:
ok Darren.... :embarrassed: but what if... ahh never mind :hyst:
Quote from: Tattoo on August 22, 2013, 02:51:18 PM
:pop: I would like to see that as well. I got my 120" project set at 11:5.1 with the 662-2 cams. I hope its not to much.
yep same here ohh wait my is set at 12.3 and running 266, 640 673 cams lots of 6's there getting old :hyst: no sexy pipe with money back warranty just a beat up zilla test pipe and will give the mega zilla a run or two as well.
Quote from: cruzmisl on August 22, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: No Cents on August 22, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
Right now...142 SAE hp/tq and 200 ccp's sounds like a nice everyday rider to me. :wink:
Yeah but like me after two weeks you'll be looking for more :wink:
I think once you ride it, you will enjoy this set up for everyday use and for whatever else you want to do with it. :up: I know I do.
Quote from: Tattoo on August 22, 2013, 02:51:18 PM
:pop: I would like to see that as well. I got my 120" project set at 11:5.1 with the 662-2 cams. I hope its not to much.
it'll go more :wink:
Damn nice job - hat's off to all involved. :up:
You have a potent ride Ray - a couple more here or there isn't going to be noticed or worth the cost, IMHO. Compression is reasonable, runs strong - you can go anywhere, anytime and not sweat the load. Resist the urge and enjoy the ride... (for a while anyway!!) :bike:
Jim, if a person is running a 120", would you recommend a Zilla or Fang?
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 22, 2013, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: Tattoo on August 22, 2013, 02:51:18 PM
:pop: I would like to see that as well. I got my 120" project set at 11:5.1 with the 662-2 cams. I hope its not to much.
it'll go more :wink:
:up:
Quote from: bulldog on August 22, 2013, 04:39:14 PM
Jim, if a person is running a 120", would you recommend a Zilla or Fang?
I am not a big fan of the 09 up zilla.
i like this one on rays bike. the early model.
it really would depend on the build.
the higher the compression and the later the cam,the more i would lean to the Fang.
Jim, would you lean towards the Fang on my 124? intake closes @ 60* and cranking compression is at 190psi(11.6cr)
Quote from: Mother on August 22, 2013, 05:55:47 PM
Jim, would you lean towards the Fang on my 124? intake closes @ 60* and cranking compression is at 190psi(11.6cr)
I suppose I would .
I don't think I would touch it with 153/149
have you had it on the buckeye tuning dyno lately?
not lately, but hopefully soon. just wanna ride it! I am curious to see if a pipe will change the peak numbers and the the tq curve.
Testing mother will show you what works best with your set up. To say that one pipe is better than the next when you can swap around baffles well the pipe is not staying the same its changing. Myself would not mess with what you have. Both these are stout running bikes.. To try and run down 2 tenths of a compression point for a engine on pump gas?? :wtf: No way in hell will that make enough change to feel.. Not to mention lets see it same day to see if the engine builds enough power to show up.. Call the change over 2/2 to be a change. Good thread not bashing but its gotten to the silly point. But its not my money or bike. Carry on. look forward to the spending . Hardest thing is "proving" the results with back to back testing. the time factor is tough.
If I do bump the compression...it won't be tenths. I'd go up to the 12.00:1 range. I would make it worth my time and money if I ever decide to do it.
I think I'll put some miles on it this way before I make that kind of decision. It looks like this set up is not too high on ccp's and should be good reliable fun. :wink:
Keep us posted on the new changes.
back from Stroker's...I put the exhaust heat shields back on it and gave it a good bath. I was waiting for an excuse to take it for a spin. The wife said her and the grand daughter wanted some KFC...bingo :idea: ...my excuse to go for a putt.
Jim warned me in advance about this thing. I should have listened :slap:
All I can say is...WOW...this thing is a bullet from hell now with the proper tune in it for the 662-2's !
I'm very happy with the outcome.
Quote from: No Cents on August 23, 2013, 06:03:58 PM
back from Stroker's...I put the exhaust heat shields back on it and gave it a good bath. I was waiting for an excuse to take it for a spin. The wife said her and the grand daughter wanted some KFC...bingo :idea: ...my excuse to go for a putt.
Jim warned me in advance about this thing. I should have listened :slap:
All I can say is...WOW...this thing is a bullet from hell now with the proper tune in it for the 662-2's !
I'm very happy with the outcome.
You ordered that back rest yet :hyst:
I was able to stay in the seat this time. The rear tire wont last very long on this thing at the rate I'm going :hyst:
Once it bangs thru 1st...2nd gear is scary wicked...and 3rd you better be pointed in the right direction and hanging on for dear life. It runs thru the gears extremely fast. Throttle response on this thing is like nothing I've ever felt before.
Jim has the magic touch...for sure! :wink:
Great to hear Ray! I knew you would like it based on Jim's comments of your bikes ability when he rode it. He does hate to let these "fun factor" bikes be picked up too soon.
I don't know if he was serious or not...but he told me to bring it to Bowling Green next month. He wanted to ride it in the bagger class. :nix:
He seems to think it's pretty quick for some reason :embarrassed:
Quote from: No Cents on August 23, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
I don't know if he was serious or not...but he told me to bring it to Bowling Green next month. He wanted to ride it in the bagger class. :nix:
He seems to think it's pretty quick for some reason :embarrassed:
He ain't kidding :potstir:
Great news :up: glad you are happy!
thanks again for all the updates and build info.
i bet she is a handful :scoot:
Travis :beer:
How about a new video and don't forget the one of it launching!
I'll have to work on that one. I hope I can find someone brave enough to stand close to it while I let it loose.
I don't think I would want to be one standing in front of it doing the filming...but I do know a few crazy people that just might be willing :hyst:
Since I can't get to a 1/4 mile track until fall, maybe I could get Jim to run my bike to see what it's worth. Lets load his trailer with toys. He might want to play with something different.
:agree:
But I don't think he will leave his lil monster behind. He said mine might make a 13.0 time slip...if he cuts a good light :dgust: :hyst:
He said actually it would probably do 12's...maybe 11's...but I really don't have a clue myself. It sure does feel quicker than it ever has before in it's life.
I'm going to have to take it out today and play with it a little. :chop:
If I had to guess, your bike with a good rider will probably run mid 11's, 50's 60's.
:potstir:
I would be lucky to see the 13.0 if I was on it. :hyst:
I guess Jim has a little stretch of road he tests for the 1/4 mile. He told me the ole' Duracell was pretty quick thru it. He said the only bike he's ever tuned that was faster...was Jam65's. That was pretty impressive I thought...coming from Jim. :doh:
I think this will make a good everyday rider that has a huge fun factor built into it.
Quote from: jam65 on August 23, 2013, 08:12:49 PM
Since I can't get to a 1/4 mile track until fall, maybe I could get Jim to run my bike to see what it's worth. Lets load his trailer with toys. He might want to play with something different.
Quote from: jam65 on August 23, 2013, 08:12:49 PM
Since I can't get to a 1/4 mile track until fall, maybe I could get Jim to run my bike to see what it's worth. Lets load his trailer with toys. He might want to play with something different.
\
Jay
I got the perfect plan for your bike. gotta add about 30 lbs of weight to it though. :unsure:
got a backup plan as well
Ray
serious as a heart attack .....put the stock seat on and bring er over to B/G . 10.999-11.5 :chop:
30lbs of Velcro seems like a little overkill. What else do you have?
Ray, are you still running the stock final drive belt and do you have IDS?
jam65, what about you? You running a chain?
Yep, I'm running a chain.
still running a belt for final drive...with a 30 tooth Andrews tranny gear and a 70 tooth rear pulley.
I've kicked the idea around for a chain drive for some time...but the belt has held up to my abuse so far. knock on wood
I went as far as to buy an extra belt for back up...it's still in the box.
chain here, Ray :sswim:
the belt is for spanking :hyst:
Sounds to me, you need to put it on the track. We don't race dynos and talk is cheap.
mines headed to Bowling Green next month :embarrassed:
Quote from: No Cents on August 24, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
the belt is for spanking :hyst:
Chains can be too... :embarrassed:
I do know a lot of people are set on chains being the best option. I had bought the extra belt back 3-4 years ago when I did a 103 Stage 4 build to have a back up if this one went south. I have always been a little leary about the belt...and do check it quit often. It's still hanging in there and shows no sign of giving up so far.
Now next week, with the way my luck has been running...I'll probably have it shread on me. :doh:
I don't think the belt is going to give you any signs, just leave you stranded. If it ever hooks up that is. All it takes is one wrong move. Front end comes up in first, you grab second as the front end is dropping so it can't pull the front end back up and the tire hooks up, something's gotta give. It's hard to avoid certain situations on a fast bike when the gears come quick. This one happens to me once in a while and I cringe every time waiting to lose the mainshaft. Seeing as you have a spare, you could hope the belt acts as a fuse. That's why we used to run stock head gaskets when tuning boosted mustangs. I was leary about going chain but couldn't be happier. I'm using a sidewinder chain and I've only adjusted it once in 3k miles and it gets abused. The only thing I'm sure you'll hate is it's DIRTY. Lube is all over my rear wheel, fender and kickstand. But you could probably find a chain wax or something that clings better. I'll never go back though. Not sure how your 6 speed shifts but a lot of people complain about them. After the baker door, manual primary adjuster and chain drive this thing is smooooth.
Quote from: No Cents on August 25, 2013, 04:45:55 AM
I do know a lot of people are set on chains being the best option. I had bought the extra belt back 3-4 years ago when I did a 103 Stage 4 build to have a back up if this one went south. I have always been a little leary about the belt...and do check it quit often. It's still hanging in there and shows no sign of giving up so far.
Now next week, with the way my luck has been running...I'll probably have it shread on me. :doh:
The belt has been proven to be stronger in lab testing than a chain but it cant with stand side shear most HD frames promote under aggressive load and the chain option does.
someday...I'll convert to a chain final drive. I might have to put that at the top of the list for my winter project. I have 3 Guyz and Drago's in my favorites saved on the computer for a couple of years now as possible vendors that sell the conversion. They are the only 2 I have found so far that offer a kit for a 2008 FLHX.
Are there any other companies selling them?
:nix: You never know, George Bryce ran a 145" 200hp RoadKing at the track, stock belt, wheelied 1st and 2nd, did fine.
Zippers has kits made up for chain drive Ray
:up:
thanks for the heads up...I just checked it out on Zipper's web site. They are priced cheaper than Drago's and 3 Guyz Inc. I do like that Zipper's offered more gear ratio options. I'll be calling them 1st thing Monday and see what they have to say. They offered a sealed O ring chain and the heavy duty drag racing chain...that apparently isn't an O ring chain. How strong is the O ring chain...I like not having the oily mess all over everything that a chain that you have to lube creates?
I'm currently running a 3.15 with the belt. If I go with the 24 tranny and a 55 pulley option that they offer...it will put me @ 3.10.
Quote from: Deye76 on August 25, 2013, 05:51:39 AM
:nix: You never know, George Bryce ran a 145" 200hp RoadKing at the track, stock belt, wheelied 1st and 2nd, did fine.
Got over 80,000 on my original belt. It has seen a few wheelies .
I need new clutch plates real bad though .
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 24, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
Sounds to me, you need to put it on the track. We don't race dynos and talk is cheap.
We who ?
Put up or shut up
We is anybody. He is saying 13's, you are saying high 10's. Going to the track is fun and a learning curve. No Cents has put a lot of effort into this bike and would enjoy a track day with it. Several. He will hit the 13 mark and start to better that time and getting into the 10 second club is something he will enjoy and remember.
Nice build and good luck.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 25, 2013, 07:43:30 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 24, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
Sounds to me, you need to put it on the track. We don't race dynos and talk is cheap.
We who ?
Put up or shut up
Wasn't posting to you and I don't. The stuff between me and you is in your head and I don't worry about it. Tapatalk doesn't have the ignore function. So, regrettably. I see your post. let it go, and have a nice day.
Ray, I would think the O ring chain would be plenty strong enough for your build and no mess with oiling it. Should be able to use chain wax on it. I believe both chains are a 530 series chain from Zippers
Stick with your belt and save your $$$. More than strong enough, less noise and less maint. If it ain't broke don't look for a break.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 25, 2013, 08:29:25 AM
We is anybody. He is saying 13's, you are saying high 10's. Going to the track is fun and a learning curve. No Cents has put a lot of effort into this bike and would enjoy a track day with it. Several. He will hit the 13 mark and start to better that time and getting into the 10 second club is something he will enjoy and remember.
Nice build and good luck.
the 13.0 was me joking around...I'd launch her and let 'er chew...without a doubt. I wouldn't be scared to twist on it for everything it's got. My problem would be getting the back tire to hook up fast enough. It just wants to spin the tire thru the first 3 gears now...and not even be on the rev limiter doing it. I would have to practice, practice, practice launching it to find out where it wants to be, to be able to keep it hooked up.
Jim say's high 10's-11.5...it might do it...it has that cocked and loaded feeling everywhere...but :nix:
I was bored yesterday after I got home from a couple hour ride...so I played with the 5" Trapp can a little so I could get it out of my system and finally lay it to rest.
I tried it first with 15 disc's and an open end cap. The bike didn't like that at all...it idled terrible and didn't have near the throttle response at all like with the Zilla muffler. I then tried 8 disc's...same results. I decided to take the baffle out and removed the packing off it and installed it back in with the open end cap with no disc's. The bike seemed to idle way better, and with it just sitting in the barn...the throttle response was much better than the first two attempts. It was late so I decided to wait until this morning to take it for a ride and she if she stumbled any. The no packing and the open end cap was at least 30% quieter at idle vs the Zilla can and didn't sound too bad.
I rode it today and it didn't stumble anywhere..."BUT"...the bike does not pull anywhere near as hard in the 2-3K range like it does with the Zilla can. End of experiment. The Zilla's can is back on and I rode it again...no comparison between the two...throttle response is back and it pulls like a Catepillar motor again.
End results...the Zilla muffler stays on!
I love the belt and wish it had held on the fatboy. Two things that save them on the street is lack of traction and clutch slip. Once the bandit went in the bike and the clutch was rock solid the old stock belt broke. After trying a new HD belt and having it brake on the first launch on traction compound with 15 lbs of air in the back tire and then breaking the "better" aftermarket belt at track day, the Softail got a nice big o-ring chain, it also lets you mess with the rear gearing easier. I have seen more than a couple 5 speed bikes at Vic's shop that when the belt breaks it lashes the gears and takes out the transmission. I have not seen it with a six speed so maybe they can take the abuse. All that said you will have the time of your life running that monster down the track and the only drawback is you can become addicted with one use of the drug. :wink:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 25, 2013, 09:37:42 AM
I love the belt and wish it had held on the fatboy. Two things that save them on the street is lack of traction and clutch slip. Once the bandit went in the bike and the clutch was rock solid the old stock belt broke. After trying a new HD belt and having it brake on the first launch on traction compound with 15 lbs of air in the back tire and then breaking the "better" aftermarket belt at track day, the Softail got a nice big o-ring chain, it also lets you mess with the rear gearing easier. I have seen more than a couple 5 speed bikes at Vic's shop that when the belt breaks it lashes the gears and takes out the transmission. I have not seen it with a six speed so maybe they can take the abuse. All that said you will have the time of your life running that monster down the track and the only drawback is you can become addicted with one use of the drug. :wink:
No truer words spoken .
I am at the point of needing new clutch disks . Losing mph now .
If I get it hooking real good it's probably gonna take a belt out . Everyone that keeps at it on the track eventually goes chain .
It's a disease . And I ain't ready to submit to a chain . She is # 4 in points so I get sucked in .
When honestly I just need to leave it home . :banghead:
Anyone got a slightly used set of pro clutch disks ? :hyst:
Ray
Your bike
It will run a 11:50 no problem .
How well it pulls 5th gear through the traps ,is what we need to see.
It will run an 11 against the limiter in 4th ... :wink:
Although my S&S 124 doesn't put out like yours, its still 126.2hp/134torque. I converted to a 530 EK Chain when I installed the engine upon reco from some outstanding engine builders, kendall Johnson being one.
I have never regretted this conversion, with 46000klms on it now, and untold, 1st,2nd and 3rd launches, it has barely stretched. I use Maxima chain wax, it stays on if sone properly, and once every 4-5000klms is enough! I have bent the 3/4" rear axle tho! fwiw Buffalo.
QuoteI have bent the 3/4" rear axle tho! fwiw Buffalo.
My race bike takes a new axle everytime the wheel comes off .
[/quote]
Anyone got a slightly used set of pro clutch disks ? :hyst:
[/quote]
Jim, I have a complete Pro Clutch, with a gold and a silver spring.
Came out of my 07'. Low mileage, never beaten on.
I stepped up to a Bandit, when I went with the 124 build.
I could use a few bucks, to help pay for the new Corbin I ordered. :nix:
So jim is going to run No cents down the track.. Anyone wanna bet on something breaking? When is the event? :pop: Max
Sounds like a good tune and solid 124" HP- :up:
Never been a predictor...fools gold and seen so many with egg on their face-
Most say well, if the clutch was this or that, if I could get it to do this or that, ....
I love and understand the excitement of the new build and wish you the best at the track where the real numbers are.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
keep hearing this advanced prediction stuff???
Run it with no games or excuses....
Post the time slip-
Done-
Quote from: pwmorris on August 25, 2013, 08:33:29 PM
Sounds like a good tune and solid 124" HP- :up:
Never been a predictor...fools gold and seen so many with egg on their face-
Most say well, if the clutch was this or that, if I could get it to do this or that, ....
I love and understand the excitement of the new build and wish you the best at the track where the real numbers are.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
keep hearing this advanced prediction stuff???
Run it with no games or excuses....
Post the time slip-
Done-
i know what mine will do, i have several slips.. it looks to me like rays bike has 5-6 more mph than mine in the 1/4 mile
if i ride it .i guarantee it will run a 11 something thru the traps in 4th gear .
simply put my bike runs 11.7's now with a loose clutch. i dont see any reason rays lighter bike wont run low 11's . the 10.999 might be there if I do everything right . :embarrassed:
need the stock seat on ....and the lowering blocks removed .
no max me and no cents are not running each other ......well maybe we could run a grudge race. :idea:
hopefully i wont have room for my bagger in the trailer come race time. just might have another one going instead.
9/28 9/29 Bowling Green Ky.
heck your retired ..bring 3-4 bikes and come on over.
Jim, it would be nice if you'd post the different classes, what is required and what is not allowed for each class and a schedule. Maybe a new thread would be best? Possibly a link would be helpful and maybe what each class has to offer.
QuoteJim, I have a complete Pro Clutch, with a gold and a silver spring.
Came out of my 07'. Low mileage, never beaten on.
I stepped up to a Bandit, when I went with the 124 build.
I could use a few bucks, to help pay for the new Corbin I ordered.
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/Smileys/classic/nixweiss.gif)
i tried sending you a pm yesterday. your box is full. i tried to answer the pm you just sent. still full.
I really dont need a complete assembly .just disks/plates.
new they are around 130.00. I hate for you to butcher a complete assembly for just the plates.
:oops: I will fix that right away. Your probably right about the clutch.
Let me know if you know someone that needs the whole set up. It
is for bikes with hydraulic release. Thanks
:hug:
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 25, 2013, 09:39:23 PM
i know what mine will do, i have several slips.. it looks to me like rays bike has 5-6 more mph than mine in the 1/4 mile
if i ride it .i guarantee it will run a 11 something thru the traps in 4th gear .
simply put my bike runs 11.7's now with a loose clutch. i dont see any reason rays lighter bike wont run low 11's . the 10.999 might be there if I do everything right . :embarrassed:
need the stock seat on ....and the lowering blocks removed .
No doubt it will run 11 something, with your track experience as the jockey.
The difference between mid elevens and a 10 second pass is another zip code. 10's with 140 HP and weight of a bagger and rider? Gonna be tough.
I ran my first 10 pass at 10.88@122 with a stock wheelbase FXR. I had at the time 142 HP.
No matter what I did with the set up the best I could get it to run was 10.60's.
I needed more horsepower or to lighten the bike.
I did both.
Quoteno max me and no cents are not running each other
Shoulda said "No Cents' bike" :wink:
Already got something going that weekend.. :teeth:
Max
No cents- we use pbi front sprockets and ek zzz 530 chains. Ids bikes get Dragos rear conversions and non ids get the previously mentioned pbi ones. Sprockets and chains both are holding up to a LOT of abuse and miles on several hard ridden club bikes as well as a 4hundred something horse nitro drag bike (630 chain on that bike). I don't care for belts......broken several low mile ones that were properly set up. They hold until they don't.....no warning on any of them.
10.10 159 HP softail chassis... ( BEST IT EVER RAN) never could get grab my 9 second S&S patch .. Unlike Paul :up:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on August 26, 2013, 11:04:59 AM
10.10 159 HP softail chassis... ( BEST IT EVER RAN) never could get grab my 9 second S&S patch .. Unlike Paul :up:
Thx Steve, but that is still flyin' for a no bar street softail :up:
Sometimes I hear on these sites how EZ it to run low numbers at the track with a street HD-usually it's a bike that has never even been there-
Put in the sweat, frustration, heartache, and finally the joy to get there first-HP ain't gonna be the savior on a bagger in and of itself at the dragstrip-too many other issues to deal with. Dusted a 225 HP turbo bagger at the track years back even though he had 60 more HP than me-he just smoked his rear tire and got all out of shape and I left him-but he did run a 10.90-
My opinion on belts-
If you are just going to the track for fun a couple times to see how it runs, leave the belt as is-
If you are serious, go chain.
Used to ride my Harley 45 minutes to the track-drag race it, then ride home.
Broke a belt once, had to get towed back home. Fixed it, thought, oh, won't happen again, must have been a fluke, old belt etc...
A few track sessions later, bam, another one went. I'm done with belts-
(http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5913/wv43.jpg)
this is why I think it will go 11.2
my bike #218 went 11.7 at 112 the winner went 11.2 pretty much what i honestly thing rays bike will do.
10.999 ain't far off if the 60 ft tightens up and the airs good .
believe me i know what it takes to run 10.999 on a dresser
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/dynosheets248.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/dynosheets248.jpg.html)
All this track talk is very interesting. I'd love to see what my dyna will do. The previous owner said it did 11.7's all day. I have no idea if it's true. I can't launch for "Potty mouth" though. Like Ray said...I'd be lucky to do 13. It sounds like some serious fun finding out though. I hope we get to see what happens with Jim on Ray's bike. :pop:
Do you know how much HP that 11.2 bagger had? I'll guarantee that wasn't that bagger and riders first day at the track-
Clutch, tire, rider, chassis all were dialed in-
I know you know what it takes to run a 10 second pass on a bagger, but have you ever done it?
I haven't launched one of the those land yachts yet-I'm sure it's a totally different animal than I am used to.
I know what it takes to run a seven second prostock pass but I sure as hell haven't done it yet-although I am thinking of stepping up in class soon.
I guess the only way we will see what it runs is when it actually goes down the track-
I wish you guys the best at the track, and can't wait to see how she runs-it's a solid build that should be a strong runner... :beer:
Working on getting a new drag bike set up for 1/8 mile out here.. that's all there is close.. Belt wise I had the same issue broken belts, then chain drive and the 3/4 axle was no match and would bend, tried a primo extra bearing support , nope swapped out for 1 inch axle bearings open swing arm up and that was fixed.
A bagger is pushing a chit ton of air on the big end , killer to keep that acceleration going. Looking forward to seeing how fast it will really go. :up:
Thanks Paul I was always sorry I never really worked on getting a 9 sec patch. I felt that with a new gear set up and more seat time it would have been there. Overall it was a hard bike to handle at track as Firebird was weird about the pad. Some days they would spray it down hard and other days not much of anything.. That pass was done right behind a BB rail that the driver get pissed about the pad and did a massive burnout and then did not lift and drove it down the track. I pulled in right behind and lined up on one of his tracks. If you can get the 100 MPH or very close to it by the 1/8 there is a 10 sec pass waiting to be had.
I was getting my Lic that day, you start out running the car to get up to speed and then they turn it up. Very cool as the car will run the numbers over and over again, so no issues. That silly 1/4 mile time does not seem like much but it was running 105-107 in the 1/8 stupid quick for a very basic set up
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/RACEDAY_zps208a8a67.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/RACEDAY_zps208a8a67.jpg.html)
Cool-
I used to love when they had the Harley drags at Firebird-My Mom lives in Phx so I could do a family visit as well.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/5069/fooi.jpg)
I hope this run is recorded..I would like to see more than a time sheet..
Quote from: pwmorris on August 26, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
Do you know how much HP that 11.2 bagger had? I'll guarantee that wasn't that bagger and riders first day at the track-
Clutch, tire, rider, chassis all were dialed in-
I know you know what it takes to run a 10 second pass on a bagger, but have you ever done it?
I haven't launched one of the those land yachts yet-I'm sure it's a totally different animal than I am used to.
I know what it takes to run a seven second prostock pass but I sure as hell haven't done it yet-although I am thinking of stepping up in class soon.
I guess the only way we will see what it runs is when it actually goes down the track-
I wish you guys the best at the track, and can't wait to see how she runs-it's a solid build that should be a strong runner... :beer:
yes he is a good rider . ( he is #3 and I an #4 in points) we both suked on the tree but i out rode him to about 200 ft . then his power won out. ray dosent have quite the power he does ,but rays bike is lighter. I cant run with him (or the top 3) ,other than hope he/they make a mistake . just looking to bring a little more to the lanes ,and i dont have a pocket full of money.
the bike to beat runs 10.6 best and if the track is good at B/G he will probably best that again. he's bad . working on a backup plan for that as well. might be next season though :nix:
never ran a 10 on a harley.
ran a 6.1 1/8 on a 1156 cc KZ bar bike . thats a 9.75 1/4 mile bike
99.46 mph in the 1/8 @ 7.173 is pretty close to 100 mph last time i checked . :scratch:
Quote from: Barrett on August 26, 2013, 12:50:35 PM
I hope this run is recorded..I would like to see more than a time sheet..
little clutch slip, little air on the front end, little more tire slip, away you go
Dresser race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L721yxyusA#)
how not to launch.
Dave is the guy to beat. good rider and a hell of a nice guy
he gathered it up and still ran a 11.2
awesome job
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-11.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-11.jpg.html)
Is that a caster on the tip of the rear fender? :hyst: That bike does run well :up:
Quote from: Durwood on August 26, 2013, 01:41:48 PM
Is that a caster on the tip of the rear fender? :hyst: That bike does run well :up:
bent the fender. :chop:
you still think a 11.5 hum?
your probably right.... I am thinking 118-120 mph depends on 4th and 5th gear
if you can get the metzler tire to hook like my skinko its gonna be close
I was agreeing that the MPH in the 1/8 will get you there. Not the other way around .. You are right its very close. As you know its all about the little things that get you there.99 vs 101 to most its like big deal to others well its now a yard stick to measure against for the next minor drop in ET
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Quote from: Durwood on August 26, 2013, 01:41:48 PM
Is that a caster on the tip of the rear fender? :hyst: That bike does run well :up:
you still think a 11.5 hum?
That's my swag... If we're doing a pool, I'll take 11:58 @116mph :teeth:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on August 26, 2013, 01:59:58 PM
I was agreeing that the MPH in the 1/8 will get you there. Not the other way around .. You are right its very close. As you know its all about the little things that get you there.99 vs 101 to most its like big deal to others well its now a yard stick to measure against for the next minor drop in ET
Very true .
It will be fun .
Keeping on track with the 124 cat out of the bag thread .
The AMRA dresser class is heads up 124 ci limit up to 127 overbore .
103 ci and under can run NOS .
We need more participation . More participation more pay out money .
The other classes have grown , and so has the AMRA . The influx of good AHDRA riders has made for some bigger brackets .
The dresser class is kinda diff . Every race I have been to there are several guys drop to E class and run 13's after test & tune or qualifying .
Once they see why it takes to win , they drop back to E class . Sad but e class pays twice as much to win as dresser class.
E class is handicap eliminations . ( bracket race )
Anyone can race .... Come on out
http://www.amraonline.com/standings/bpoint.html (http://www.amraonline.com/standings/bpoint.html)
:emoGroan:
I hate to admit it...but Max is probably right :gob: ...something will probably break on the bike. I think the weakest link on it would be the belt.
So...I talked to Zipper's today about their chain drive conversion kit. It is a direct bolt on for my 08 FLHX with the stock back 16" rim...but I went aftermarket rims long ago and got rid of the cush drive. I currently have an 18" rim on the back.
They offer a steel 24-26 tooth front tranny gear option, and a 7075-T6 aluminum 46-55 tooth rear gear option that they stock...other size gears are available as a special order...but the tech said he has a 60 tooth rear gear that someone special ordered and backed out on...that he would be willing to put it in the kit if I wanted it...for no additional charge. :scratch:
My current gear ratio with the belt is 3.157. If I get the Zipper's kit with a 24 tranny gear and a 56 rear gear I will have the same ratio as I current have.
If I choose the 60 tooth rear gear he offered me...it would give me a ratio of 3.382 with the 24 tooth tranny gear, and a 3.247 with a 25 tooth. That's a lot of low gearing with the 662-2 cams...might be too low :nix: it seems to pull hard now off the bottom with the 3.157 ratio.
My main concern is what I will need to do, as far as spacers go...to get everything to align properly. Zipper's can't guarantee it will bolt directly on and line up with the aftermarket rim. I'll be treading new waters there.
Zipper's also suggested the RK 530 O-ring chain...but they have a DR drag racing chain as an option. The tech said the O-ring chain would be the better choice between the two because the bike is ridden on the street and it is not strictly for the strip.
Input would be appreciated on anything about what Zipper's told me.
I knew it :hyst:
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
I knew it :hyst:
that's your input...might as well gave me a 8-up...at least :hyst:
I'm trying to get it race prepped for you!
I don't want Max to think he's right all the time :banghead:
I say pick your poison,Listen like PWMORRIS said are you going to run all the time at the strip or run the street all the time,I myself run the street I run 150 plus with a belt but I don't HAMMER the gears because of belt but I've got with it make it up with CUBES than twist on it, but that's me,IRONMIKE
Go with the 3.247 for everyday street . If you want the bad azz angry bike go 3.38
Randy can make the spacers .
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 04:23:39 PM
Go with the 3.247 for everyday street . If you want the bad azz angry bike go 3.38
Randy can make the spacers .
Nice thing about the chain is you can change the gear easily to a street gear when done at the track.
Maybe set it for 120mph in 4th at 6300rpm
Ray. If you're asking for opinions mine would be. Run the belt as is for now and see how it runs thru the traps and if you still want to go chain then you'll have a base to go from. No since in changing it right now. The bike can be launched easy enough for now to get a feel for how it reacts.
If you stay with the metzler 880 rear tire then try the 160/60-18 radial rear. It's lighter softer and has a much bigger contact patch. I used to blaze the bias tires by just wacking the throttle and that changed when I went toradial.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 26, 2013, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 04:23:39 PM
Go with the 3.247 for everyday street . If you want the bad azz angry bike go 3.38
Randy can make the spacers .
Nice thing about the chain is you can change the gear easily to a street gear when done at the track.
Maybe set it for 120mph in 4th at 6300rpm
I was hoping that was where it is now :up:
Go Oring for sure....and 3.247
I'll tell you my gear set up but than I have to biff you off, run it it, I never did like the 2008 gearing just saying. :slap:
Oooooohhhhhh I need to get rid of them Dam 16" ape hangers,Them don't work worth a chit at a buck twenty on a Ultra bagger. :slap:
I agree on the 3.24 gearing. The 3.38 might be a shift fest that you won't want to play with after riding in town.
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 26, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
Ray. If you're asking for opinions mine would be. Run the belt as is for now and see how it runs thru the traps and if you still want to go chain then you'll have a base to go from. No since in changing it right now. The bike can be launched easy enough for now to get a feel for how it reacts.
If you stay with the metzler 880 rear tire then try the 160/60-18 radial rear. It's lighter softer and has a much bigger contact patch. I used to blaze the bias tires by just wacking the throttle and that changed when I went toradial.
I'm running a 150/70-18" rear Metzeler 880 tire now. When I bought the rim...the company that made them told me that was as wide as tire that I could safely go with a belt drive.
The 160/60-18 just might fit under there with a chain conversion...I'll have to check that out...this tire wont last much longer at the rate I'm going. It does spin fairly easy.
The 160/60 is the. tire I'm running on a 18x4.25 wheel, stock belt, 06 roadglide. It's fits nice. It's close has never rubbed.
my belt actually rubbed on the upper belt guard with the 150/70 tire. My rim is 4.25 also...the belt clearanced for itself...it didn't need to remove much plastic :hyst:
I use to run the 3.15 when I first put the 120 in, and have since changed it to 3.27 and it is much better. I have been running the EK zzz chain and have not had to adjust the chain since install 7K miles ago. I went thru the aluminum rear sprocket in no time at all, and since have bought two steel sprocket for different gearing, the sprockets show no wear at all. PBI make great gears and show no wear in last 15K miles. I am running a 18 rear wheel with 180 tire.
A 160/60-18 fit on my 2004 FLH with a generous trim on the belt guard. Eventually took it off anyway.
Just put a 180/55-18 on the bike after the 117 install. Used a slightly modded 2007 CVO RK fender, bolts right in with a chain conversion. The new motor is very thankful..... :teeth:
Quote from: JohnCA58 on August 26, 2013, 07:29:59 PM
I use to run the 3.15 when I first put the 120 in, and have since changed it to 3.27 and it is much better. I have been running the EK zzz chain and have not had to adjust the chain since install 7K miles ago. I went thru the aluminum rear sprocket in no time at all, and since have bought two steel sprocket for different gearing, the sprockets show no wear at all. PBI make great gears and show no wear in last 15K miles. I am running a 18 rear wheel with 180 tire.
Your install was the inspiration for mine. I used a 2007 RK CVO fender instead of a late model. Much easier to make work as it bolts in with a little trimming.
yeah :up:, I never knew about that fender until after I did mine and then saw one at the dealer by accident looking at the CVO and seeing it had a 180 under it. :up:
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 04:23:39 PM
Go with the 3.247 for everyday street . If you want the bad azz angry bike go 3.38
Randy can make the spacers .
Whats stock??
Maybe I should grab a different rear sprocket and give it a try.
07-08 baggers are 2.79 (32t/66t pulleys). 09-up baggers are 2.87 (32t/68t pulleys).
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 26, 2013, 04:23:39 PM
Go with the 3.247 for everyday street . If you want the bad azz angry bike go 3.38
Randy can make the spacers .
:agree:
IMO the big gear is a bit low for the freeway, esp with longer stroke, but then I like to go 75 -80 on the fwy. Some old guys go 65 and that's not a PIA at the lower gearing. :potstir: OTOH, if you do no touring and plan to be racing a lot, go low. HD used to make a lower ratio primary set up - 21 tooth comp sprocket IIRC - that'll do what you want.
For reference, w/3.15 gearing I'm going thru the traps in the top of 4th.
Re chain - good quality 530 and steel gears is the way to go - Zippers, 3-guys. I like o-ring because I'm told they hold lube better. Mine seems to with the wax-based lube. Throws off some initially, then good.
For a while, HD made a heavier duty belt for sidecar rigs. A big fellow races a bagger with a stout 107 all bore - low 11s - and he runs the HD sidecar belt w/ no issues.
FWIW, I'd run the belt until it breaks then make the switch... Or maybe not. If you go to BG and pound on it hard - and it holds, why bother if you rarely go racing?
I guess it's the old adage..."if it ain't broke...don't fix it".
I'm thinking this is the weak link on the bike right now...but it is good so far.
I haven't pulled the chain yet on ordering a conversion kit...no pun intended. It's still in debate.
Quote from: No Cents on August 27, 2013, 04:02:07 AM
I guess it's the old adage..."if it ain't broke...don't fix it".
I'm thinking this is the weak link on the bike right now...but it is good so far.
I haven't pulled the chain yet on ordering a conversion kit...no pun intended. It's still in debate.
I think tire is weak link. It will spin before the belt snaps. Maybe... :embarrassed:
Buy the steel sprocket for double duty.. drag only then save the weight. I laugh about hardened aluminum it is still so much softer than a the cheap drag steel sprocket. Here is a so called billet unit that never even made the street it started to throw teeth off on the dyno :hyst: Bought another from another shop that is to replace the IDS it did not last much longer. Stupid steel drag sprocket takes a beating. Might not have a sexy look but its got the good to handle 200 + hp :up:
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg.html)
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on August 27, 2013, 06:44:33 AM
Buy the steel sprocket for double duty.. drag only then save the weight. I laugh about hardened aluminum it is still so much softer than a the cheap drag steel sprocket. Here is a so called billet unit that never even made the street it started to throw teeth off on the dyno :hyst: Bought another from another shop that is to replace the IDS it did not last much longer. Stupid steel drag sprocket takes a beating. Might not have a sexy look but its got the good to handle 200 + hp :up:
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg.html)
No surprise there. 7075 while a great alloy, really has no place for sprocket applications. The slightest pitch change in the chain and kiss the tips of the teeth goodbye.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 27, 2013, 06:55:28 AM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on August 27, 2013, 06:44:33 AM
Buy the steel sprocket for double duty.. drag only then save the weight. I laugh about hardened aluminum it is still so much softer than a the cheap drag steel sprocket. Here is a so called billet unit that never even made the street it started to throw teeth off on the dyno :hyst: Bought another from another shop that is to replace the IDS it did not last much longer. Stupid steel drag sprocket takes a beating. Might not have a sexy look but its got the good to handle 200 + hp :up:
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/008_zpscd4132c5.jpg.html)
No surprise there. 7075 while a great alloy, really has no place for sprocket applications. The slightest pitch change in the chain and kiss the tips of the teeth goodbye.
Ron
YEA but its billet its super tough its hardened , I read it on the internet it must be true :emoGroan: I think the steel sprocket was 30-40 bucks . Powder coat it if you want black or rattle can it, on a bagger who cares you can not see it any ways
Was that aluminum sprocket chromed? How many miles on it?
Max
No chrome, it had low miles on it. Steel just flat out works. its that simple. We installed a complete Zippers kit for a guy running the Hoka Hey it did not last 1/2 the trip. He was dead set on checking it etc, he was freaked out that a belt would break and stop him from completing the run, in fact the teeth shed and it had to be towed in as it would not even move. Lighter bike less tq way less jerk in the chain IE import bike they will last longer but even those we swap out for the import guys 2-1 over steel.
Quote from: JohnCA58 on August 26, 2013, 07:29:59 PM
I use to run the 3.15 when I first put the 120 in, and have since changed it to 3.27 and it is much better. I have been running the EK zzz chain and have not had to adjust the chain since install 7K miles ago. I went thru the aluminum rear sprocket in no time at all, and since have bought two steel sprocket for different gearing, the sprockets show no wear at all. PBI make great gears and show no wear in last 15K miles. I am running a 18 rear wheel with 180 tire.
where can I buy the steel sprockets...the aluminum sprocket does scare me.
my aluminum sprocket from 3 Guyz didn't last 4K miles with teeth almost completely gone. I got the steel sprockets from CA Phil, very cheap but show no wear at all. cheap enough to keep couple different gearing for long trip or around town and or even 1/4 mile runs. I change between a 49t and 51t sprocket and still keep the same chain link length, less than an hour to change them.
I called Zipper's again today and asked if the could get rear steel sprockets...they said no way. They told me PBI makes their sprockets for them for their chain conversion kits.
I went to PBI's web site and they only offer a 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum rear sprocket for a Harley.
PBI states this about their rear sprockets:
Manufactured from 7075-T6 quality aircraft aluminum which surpasses common steel sprockets in tensile, yield and shear strength. :scratch:
I'm having trouble finding rear steel sprockets for my bike. I stopped by my friends Indy shop (Donny Loos) which was the owner/founder of Sucker Punch Sally bikes...I asked him about where I could possibly find a rear steel sprocket. He told me that a company named Rebel Gear in Tennessee made all his steel sprockets for his Sucker Punch Sally bikes and should be able to make me any size steel sprocket I wanted. I'm going to check with them and see what they have to say.
So for now...I guess it will have to stay belt. If I'm going to make the switch to chain...the sprockets will both have to be steel.
Check out Dennis Kirk for sprockets ( just one example ):
https://www.denniskirk.com/drag-specialties/chrome-rear-wheel-sprocket-w-48-teeth.ph829248s.prd/H829248S.sku (https://www.denniskirk.com/drag-specialties/chrome-rear-wheel-sprocket-w-48-teeth.ph829248s.prd/H829248S.sku)
:up:
thanks...but I need a 56 or a 57 tooth rear sprocket for the gear ratio I'm after. I just looked at Rebel Gears web site...they only offer the 7075-T6 aluminum rear sprockets also.
It seems most company's are going to the 7075-T6 for some reason :scratch:
http://www.superiorsprockets.com/sprocket_racing.html (http://www.superiorsprockets.com/sprocket_racing.html)
https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p81053.prd/8105356.sku (https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p81053.prd/8105356.sku)
https://www.denniskirk.com/sunstar/rear-sprocket.p8071456S.prd/8071456S.sku (https://www.denniskirk.com/sunstar/rear-sprocket.p8071456S.prd/8071456S.sku)
https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p805308.prd/80530856.sku (https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p805308.prd/80530856.sku)
https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p81053.prd/8105356.sku (https://www.denniskirk.com/jt/rear-sprocket.p81053.prd/8105356.sku)
I don't know if they fit a Harley wheel, but these are steel with 56 teeth.
Not sure why you are going after one that large what do you plan on running for a front?
As for steel PBI now is making steel sprockets for the ATV's and as you have read guys have tried the 7075 and they dont last.
Maybe give "Spacely Sprockets" a try. Their prices are out of this world but the material they use is space age alloy. Tell them George sent you. :bike:
Sorry Ray. I couldn't resist. :beer:
Steve the front was going to be a 24...with a rear 56 it would give me a 3.157...same as I'm right now with the belt.
A 24 with a 57 would give me a 3.213.
I talked to the guy @ Rebel Gear on the phone a few minutes ago. He said that he would guarantee his 7075-T6 rear sprocket for 10,000 miles on a 150+ hp motor. He said he knows of 200hp Hyabusa's having over 15,000 miles on one of his 7075-T6 rear sprockets with no problems and still running strong :nix:
I don't have the +150hp motor...so I might be good to go with a 7075-T6 sprocket.
What I'm not liking hearing...is everyone that I have talked to so far about chain conversions says....15-20,000 miles tops out of the gears and chains.
Quote from: 06roadglide on August 27, 2013, 02:50:32 PM
Maybe give "Spacely Sprockets" a try. Their prices are out of this world but the material they use is space age alloy. Tell them George sent you. :bike:
Sorry Ray. I couldn't resist. :beer:
too many Jetson's for you...your cut off of those pills :hyst:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 27, 2013, 02:12:48 PM
http://www.superiorsprockets.com/sprocket_racing.html (http://www.superiorsprockets.com/sprocket_racing.html)
:up:
thanks...I just got off the phone with Randy @ Superior Sprockets. He has been making sprockets since 1976. He told me that there is no USA manufacturer making steel rear sprockets for the late model Harley chain conversions ...and the products coming from abroad are junk in quality...and the aluminum rear sprockets don't last!
He said he will be tooled up hopefully by this time next month to begin making steel rear sprockets for all Harley's. He said he will be using a water jet to make them vs a laser cutter. He said the water jet leaves a satin finish...vs a tooled finish that a laser produces. He is having another well dug to support the extra water flow needed for the water jet to cut the hardened steel. Randy said he can make sprockets any size you wanted. He said he refuses to put out a product that isn't perfect and made here entirely in the USA.
I liked him...super nice guy...he earned my business. I told him I will call him back next month and place an order when he's up and running.
A proud true American there men!
Quote from: No Cents on August 27, 2013, 02:57:37 PM
Steve the front was going to be a 24...with a rear 56 it would give me a 3.157...same as I'm right now with the belt.
A 24 with a 57 would give me a 3.213.
I talked to the guy @ Rebel Gear on the phone a few minutes ago. He said that he would guarantee his 7075-T6 rear sprocket for 10,000 miles on a 150+ hp motor. He said he knows of 200hp Hyabusa's having over 15,000 miles on one of his 7075-T6 rear sprockets with no problems and still running strong :nix:
I don't have the +150hp motor...so I might be good to go with a 7075-T6 sprocket.
What I'm not liking hearing...is everyone that I have talked to so far about chain conversions says....15-20,000 miles tops out of the gears and chains.
Yep have heard that very thing HOWEVER call him and tell him its making 140+ tq and 120 TQ + at 2300 RPM and you plan on launching a 900 + lbs bike... Think about what RPM you plan on leaving the line, slip the clutch or not its still mega shock to the system, Then ask him if he will still warranty the sprocket. Do what you want I heard the same deal, and broke the 7075 units, you have others stating the very same thing I am telling you. Your money boss.
My softail with steel was rock solid and held up with many pass down the track and street use.. 1/4 mile is at every stop light some days :bike:
Chains would stretch and need replacement at least twice a year. That was a 200 MM rear tire
the super charger bike making 200+ and 170+ had a offshore steel unit that is holding up just fine. and its was a 08 with a PM rear wheel so hence no IDS basic early bolt on style I bought it right out of Drag. It bolted up and worked fine.
Not sure why the PBI aluminum sprockets aren't holding..... :nix:
I can take some pictures of ours. Lots of miles. Lots of abuse. One on our 400 something horse nitro bike. Coupled with the afore mentioned EK ZZZ chains- they're holding up. Several on 100+ hp/tq bikes.
Maybe give Sidewinder a call. They state that they can make any sprocket needed and have a lifetime guarantee on their top of the line sprocket. Several materials to choose from if you would like to spend less.
Quote from: jam65 on August 27, 2013, 03:58:11 PM
Maybe give Sidewinder a call. They state that they can make any sprocket needed and have a lifetime guarantee on their top of the line sprocket. Several materials to choose from if you would like to spend less.
That's who I used for my custom sprocket for my buell wheel. I sent them a buell pulley and they made a drawing and cut one for me. Pretty sure their custom sprockets are only available flat and they also don't offer the custom sprockets in their newest material so I got their "Ti-moly" version that he said I would never wear out. It took longer than I was hoping but came out decent and is holding up great. There is no visible wear on the teeth after over 3k miles. Not even the coating on it is worn off. Price was reasonable too for a one off. It's not light though. I've been considering having them cut an aluminum one but have been unsure about it lasting.
Be careful about Sidewinder. This guy sure was unhappy:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085)
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on August 27, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Be careful about Sidewinder. This guy sure was unhappy:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085)
:up:
wow...not good...but their titanium sprockets look killer.
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on August 27, 2013, 05:14:53 PM
Be careful about Sidewinder. This guy sure was unhappy:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847085)
I should have made a disclaimer, I'm not exactly suggesting them. I read a few bad reviews after already sending them my pulley and paying. I fell for all the claims on the website and made in USA stuff. Plus I couldn't find anyone else to cut a custom steel sprocket. I was pretty nervous, especially with how long it was taking. Wasn't totally impressed with the fit and finish of the sprocket when I finally got it either. But I can't really argue with the results. The sprocket and chain have been perfect.
Don't know what you guys are doing to kill the aluminum sprockets but here is one with about 12000 miles on it.. Not a bagger but the motor make 144/146 last check.. Punch it down to 3rd to pass a car an when the tire hits the center line it can spin.. tire is a 170/60-17 BT023..
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1225)
Max
For a steel sprocket go to your local Applied Industrial Technology store. Have them order a #50 chain plate sprocket from Martin Gear for you, in any number of teeth you want. I allways paid the extra 15$ or so to have it flame hardened. Now take to your local shop that has a mill and have them bore the center hole and drill the bolt pattern. You will have a rear sprocket that will go at least 25000 street miles and outlast many 7075 aluminum rear sprockets.
Joel 2001 FLHT
Way cool...There is one in San Marcos.. :teeth:
Max
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 27, 2013, 07:27:50 PM
Don't know what you guys are doing to kill the aluminum sprockets but here is one with about 12000 miles on it.. Not a bagger but the motor make 144/146 last check.. Punch it down to 3rd to pass a car an when the tire hits the center line it can spin.. tire is a 170/60-17 BT023..
(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1225)
Max
What is this on? I already like everything I know about it. Who makes the sprocket?
You can almost read the name on the sprocket.
http://sprocketspecialists.com (http://sprocketspecialists.com)
Bike has been around for a while..
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,51497.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,51497.0.html)
Max
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 27, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
You can almost read the name on the sprocket.
http://sprocketspecialists.com (http://sprocketspecialists.com)
Bike has been around for a while..
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,51497.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,51497.0.html)
Max
The hard anodized ones work for me. Maybe it's the aircraft stuff?
I've got about 20k on a Performance Machine aluminum sprocket and it is holding up fine so far.
QuoteGordon
For a while, HD made a heavier duty belt for sidecar rigs. A big fellow races a bagger with a stout 107 all bore - low 11s - and he runs the HD sidecar belt w/ no issues.
FWIW, I'd run the belt until it breaks then make the switch... Or maybe not. If you go to BG and pound on it hard - and it holds, why bother if you rarely go racing
:agree:
ray this is good advice.
i got over 80,000 on my original belt. 50 + runs on the track.
if your doing this because of a few runs down the track . i wouldn't sweat it.
a softail and touring bike are totally diff ,when it comes to load on a belt.
If you got wood for a chain drive ? carry on :scoot:
http://www.supersproxusa.com/Products/made-to-measure-special-sprockets.php (http://www.supersproxusa.com/Products/made-to-measure-special-sprockets.php)
Max
:up:
thanks Max.
I called them and left a message & sent them an e-mail from their web site today. I haven't heard back from them as yet. I also talked to Andy @ Sidewinder on the phone today...he said it would take at least a month to make his steel sprockets...he will sell me his titanium sprockets with a lifetime guarantee for $139.00 and his Ti3 steel sprocket for $99.00 which comes with a one year warranty...but he said he has never seen a Ti3 sprocket wear out in the last 10 years that they have made them.
I decided to have both a 56 and 58 tooth rear sprockets made at the same time...from whoever can make them in steel for me.
This will give me the option to change the gearing fairly quickly on it with just the rear sprocket change and be able to use the same chain according to everyone that I have asked. The front sprocket will be a PBI 24 tooth.
This will be my gearing options:
24/56 = 3.157 ratio...same as my current belt
24/58 = 3.270 ratio
I've also decided on using an EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain...it has 11,100 pd tensile strength.
It looks like this will be a winter project because of the time frame needed for the rear steel sprockets to be made.
added later:
I just found that Baker Drivetrain might offer the front tranny sprocket in different sizes. I'll be calling them in the morning and seeing if they have a 21 tooth option. If they do...then I could use 49 & 51 tooth rear sprockets for the same gearing I'm after. I'll see what they have to say tomorrow.
Baker Drivetrain only has a 25 tooth front sprocket for the 07-up models. Smaller sizes are for 06-down models...they had a mis-print on their web site. They said they could have a 21 tooth front tranny sprocket made for the 07-up tranny @ a cost of only $800.00...beings it would be a one off...I said no thanks. :doh:
So...I ordered a 24 tooth PBI front tranny sprocket along with an EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain off E-Bay.
I'll just have to wait for placing an order for my 56 & 58 tooth rear sprockets. I haven't been able to find a supplier that has steel sprockets on the shelf for what I need...or can make them in a timely manner. The closest I'm hearing is at least a month out for a possible rear sprocket.
Ray, save the money for tires, run the belt.. :teeth:
I will for now...the chain conversion is in progress...I already bought the front tranny sprocket and chain.
Quote from: No Cents on August 29, 2013, 11:40:06 AM
So...I ordered a 24 tooth PBI front tranny sprocket along with an EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain off E-Bay.
:up:
I've adjusted my EK 3 times in 16,000 miles. Quiet, smooth and showing no wear so far. PJ-1 blue label lube every 500 miles or so but I'm anal about a clean/lubed chain.
Aaron
I ordered two Titanium (Ti3) pulleys from Sidewinder today. One in a 56 tooth and one in a 58 tooth. I'll have a 3.157 or a 3.270 gear option with the two.
I started a thread on pulley dimensions if anyone can help me out with some measurements.
He needed the center hole diameter and bolt pattern measurements. I don't have a pulley or sprocket laying around to measure it.
on my pulleys the center hole is 2.200 in. and spacing from center of hole in 5 bolt pattern to across hole is approx 3.100 in. . hope that helps.
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2013, 05:41:25 PM
I ordered two Titanium (Ti3) pulleys from Sidewinder today. One in a 56 tooth and one in a 58 tooth. I'll have a 3.157 or a 3.270 gear option with the two.
I started a thread on pulley dimensions if anyone can help me out with some measurements.
He needed the center hole diameter and bolt pattern measurements. I don't have a pulley or sprocket laying around to measure it.
I posted in your other thread, but I'm surprised Sidewinder don't already have that information in their library.
:up:
thanks for all the replies men. I've gotten a few replies with different varying measurements. They all do seem close to each other...but still a little different.
I sent an e-mail out to the wheel manufacture this morning hoping to hear back from them soon. I hate to have to pull the back wheel off to just measure the hub...but if I don't hear back from them by the middle of the week...I'll have no choice I guess but to pull it and get the measurement off the hub for verification.
I did measure my old factory wheel center hole lip...it measured 2.219" with my caliper. I tested my caliper accuracy on some feeler gauges...it was dead on. I ran the rear pulley that I gave Brian on the factory wheel and also on my aftermarket wheel...so I know it fit both rims.
I sent Sidewinder the drawing last night of what Ohio HD kindly made for me...and added what I measured for the hub lip to the drawing also. I asked Sidewinder if these measurements were close to resembling anything they have made before for a HD rear sprocket. Hopefully this will give them an understanding of what I need. The guy at Sidewinder said they have made thousands of sprockets for Harley's. If they have made thousands...this should narrow it down for them I would think.
The different measurements I have gotten from everybody do seem to be all fairly close...within a few thousands of each other.
Max hell of a thread all the way brother. I;d love to do straight up and see where the dust settles......
I finally got the manufacturer (Southern Motorcycle Works) hub spec's today and I was able to forward the info to Sidewinder to enable them to make the two (Ti3) titanium rear sprockets.
The center sprocket hole needed to be 2.215 in diameter...and it is 1.63 from the center of that hole to the center of the sprockets bolt holes. Max will have to give us the bolt pattern for those #'s.
I got the front 24 tooth tranny sprocket in the mail today from PBI...it looks like a nice piece. The EK ZZZ chain should be here any day. The rear sprockets could be a month out...so I will just have to be patient.
I've been trying hard not to bang on it too much...but it just seems to want to get up and go all the time with very little effort. I'm leary of the belt now because I'm thinking about it snapping all the time and leaving me stranded.
I must say it has been running great with no hesitation or stumbling. The more miles I put on it the better and stronger it feels for some reason...of course this is butt dyno feel :slap:
I confirmed from wfolarry yesterday what the cc's were on the heads...they are @ 91cc's. I lost 1cc on the piston by having to open up the intake valve pockets. In the end with the 91cc heads, and the -2.6cc flat top pistons, with the 200ccp's that Jim showed...it puts this motor at:
11.10:1 static compression
9.70:1 corrected
200 ccp's @ 550' altitude
I thought someone might be interested in where the motor ended up at...the way she is right now.
Daren...come get the tool box keys...the gears in my head are already starting to turn...I'm thinking a set of domed CP pistons might just be what the doctor ordered :hyst:
I'm on the way :chop:
Where does it stop you need more motor bud that's the bottom line,Or maybe a super charger ask Frank over at Draggo's ,Like I said before I run a belt no problems but that's me,sounds like you hit it a lot harder than me,And with the tune you got I bet you never hit it wide open in all the gears to see if that belt wound snap,I know I've hit it hard in 3 gears but that it mine didn't snap yet stay close to the house when twisting on it that hard than move on to step 2 JMHI :scratch:
I'm done with this one...I was just :potstir: at Daren.
I'll do this chain conversion and just ride it.
But...I'm not sayin that someday in the far away future...that I might see a set of those 4 3/8 bore cases sitting on an engine stand to tinker with.
That square motor set @ around 12.00:1 is an awfully tempting thing...I might just have to go visit Daren's house to steal back my tool box keys when he's not looking :hyst:
That little Dyna would make a nice drag bike... :potstir:
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 03, 2013, 05:29:33 PM
That little Dyna would make a nice drag bike... :potstir:
Ummm hummm
you guys must be reading my mind :hyst:
I'm telling you stay away you will be better off STAY AWAY :slap:
but...that lowrider is just sitting there and not getting ridden. I've put a tape measure up against it and said hummm :idea: A lil square motor here, some wheelie bars there, and a few other gizmo's thrown in...and wah-lah...a full time toy to take to the track and have fun.
It's just a thought so far. :wink:
You could sell the low rider and pick up something like this:
http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/General-Motorcycle-Chat/Drag-Bike-for-sale (http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/General-Motorcycle-Chat/Drag-Bike-for-sale)
:down:
that would take all my fun out of it. I enjoy turning the wrench's and watching it unfold.
But...I could use the sandblaster he had in the 2nd pic. I need one of those in my barn.
Quote from: No Cents on September 03, 2013, 06:10:40 PM
:down:
that would take all my fun out of it. I enjoy turning the wrench's and watching it unfold.
But...I could use the sandblaster he had in the 2nd pic. I need one of those in my barn.
For the wrench turner in all of us:
http://motorcycles.yakaz.com/buell-drag-bike-for-sale#lo=4&docid=000224usistkpddq (http://motorcycles.yakaz.com/buell-drag-bike-for-sale#lo=4&docid=000224usistkpddq)
edit:
actually my point is to start the dedicated drag bike with a drag bike frame.
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on September 03, 2013, 06:16:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on September 03, 2013, 06:10:40 PM
:down:
that would take all my fun out of it. I enjoy turning the wrench's and watching it unfold.
But...I could use the sandblaster he had in the 2nd pic. I need one of those in my barn.
For the wrench turner in all of us:
http://motorcycles.yakaz.com/buell-drag-bike-for-sale#lo=4&docid=000224usistkpddq (http://motorcycles.yakaz.com/buell-drag-bike-for-sale#lo=4&docid=000224usistkpddq)
edit:
actually my point is to start the dedicated drag bike with a drag bike frame.
I'd buy it just for the wheels but alas they are probably 17s..
Max
Them Lowriders are pretty fun. Come on Ray and join the club. :hug:
I know where there is a 90 ci er Buell turn key N/A that runs into the 9's ( S/G 9.90 index)
6000.00 proven winner and was #1 S/P (10.3 INDEX) plate with a smaller motor in it a few years back.
really nice ride if someone is looking for a Buell to go racing
Quote from: jam65 on September 03, 2013, 08:17:36 PM
Them Lowriders are pretty fun. Come on Ray and join the club. :hug:
It's a 2003 Lowrider. I bought it for the wifeeepooh to ride to make her happy...she wanted to be her own pilot and not a passanger anymore. She rode it for a few years and parked it one day after a 200 mile ride...she got off and said she was done with riding motorcycles...now it just sits. Hell...she hasn't rode it in over two years now. I asked her if she plans on riding it again...and she said to sell it because she's too old to ride it now and her body is too broken down :nix: I didn't have the heart to get rid of it...hoping someday she might change her mind...you know how woman are...but I finally see that she'e done being her own pilot.
I've been looking at it with the thought of making it a drag bike for sometime now. I mentioned it to the wife last night...she said go ahead if you are that stupid :slap:
I might have to at least let it sit thru the winter to make sure I'm able to keep the peace in the house for right now...she didn't have much to say to me for the rest of the night :embarrassed:
Quoteshe didn't have much to say to me for the rest of the night (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/Smileys/classic/emembarrassed.gif)
problem solved :hyst:
:hyst: not a bad thing!
no rambling on about how her day went or how bad her feet hurt :doh: ...just peace and quiet :up:
I could easily get use to this :oops: I hope she doesn't read the forum :hyst:
well men...I have to admit that this motor is almost too touchy on the bottom end with the 662-2's in it. It is extremely touchy off idle and I have found that you have to pretty much be trying to feather the clutch on it a lot. It is difficult to make 90* turns without pulling the clutch completely in...make the turn...re-group and then go. I really don't care for this. It just wants to go, go, go, all the time...it's load and cocked to go...like right now...with not so friendly slower manners.
I'm going to consider making a few changes to try to get it calmer at slower speeds. A domed piston with the 594's is where I'll more than likely go. If the 594's act like they did in the 117"er...I would be haapy.
I will admit the -2's are quiet in this motor and make it extremely quick...but I dont think they are for me on the street.
Ray, some of what you feel may be attributed to the 66mm throttle body. The larger throttle bodies can make small openings in the throttle really touchy. Not saying the cams aren't contributing as well, but it may always be a little touchy with the 66mm on there. I can feel a little of this with the 58mm I have now, vs. the 50mm I had on the 107 motor.
:doh: you're truely ate up Ray. :hyst:
I have to agree on the TB. The big ones make them very touchy and responsive to little twitches in the hand.
I say give it some time for you to adapt to it.
Brian's on to it Ray. Guy's running D's on the street more often than not have trouble with low speed manners.
What's your intake inlet size?
You'd might be on to something with the t/body.
I would hate to get caught in the rain on it. It would be a scary handful.
I believe it is a 1.800 runner
I have the same build as you "pretty much" I run the 58MM HPI 1.8 runners and it has great low speed manerisms. Great all around cams too with the 662-2's. There right. The throttle body is way too big IMO also.
I have a HPI 54-58 with 1.8" inlets on the shelf if you wanted to try it.
Pull some gear out of it for the street. You are fixin' to go chain.
Ray, like my buddy Redneck says, "It's one thing to have a bike that will get sideways when you want it to, And another thing to have one that does when you don't". :teeth:
I'm only running a HPINC 56. W/ 1.8 manifold. Yellow injectors.. Very good around town , rips when I want it to.
Tuner says its plenty.
Well..... the Dyna does need a stronger motor in it. :potstir:
I am not surprised about the twitchy throttle/on off feel of the huge throttle body. As said I dealt with that years ago running a D on the street-
Sounds like your combo might need a slight adjustment but whatever you do, make sure you set it up for the type of riding you do most of the time. That is the only way you really are going to happy riding it on a daily basis. The slightly smaller TB might be the ticket and I doubt you will see any big loss up top.
Is this bike going to Bowling Green 9/28-9/29 to see what it will actually run or is this party over before it even started?
You really should not be have that much trouble with your lowend torque where it is.
It is probably a tuning adjustment.
Your TBW is the easiest to adjust, with an old L-model S&S and 1/4 turn grip you would have to do some machine work to fix things, you just need to tweek this table some.
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o756/1fstrk/TBW_zpsc8f22b26.png)
Quote from: pwmorris on September 06, 2013, 08:05:00 AM
Is this bike going to Bowling Green 9/28-9/29 to see what it will actually run or is this party over before it even started?
I think we got him still on the hook :fish:
Quote from: Durwood on September 06, 2013, 09:16:54 AM
Quote from: pwmorris on September 06, 2013, 08:05:00 AM
Is this bike going to Bowling Green 9/28-9/29 to see what it will actually run or is this party over before it even started?
I think we got him still on the hook :fish:
unless something unforseen comes up...I'll be there. I hope I'll see the rear steel sprockets and have the chain on it before then...but if I dont...it's still going.
I have been riding Harley's for almost 40 years now...and I have never had a bike that wants to get up and go off idle like this one. She's sensitive for sure. It's fun on wide open dry roads...I dont think it would like twisty's at all.
This bike with this combo is not made for any wet road riding conditions. It wouldn't take much for it to get from underneath you.
I will have to debate on what to do next...I know it can't stay like this much longer for me to be happy with it.
Ray, not sure if it matters, but you will get used to it to an extent. My last 3 builds all did it.
My new build i went smaller on purpose.
Quote from: TXCHOP on September 06, 2013, 09:46:08 AM
Ray, not sure if it matters, but you will get used to it to an extent. My last 3 builds all did it.
My new build i went smaller on purpose.
:up: :up:
Once you go to a bigger motor.. You can push the torque curve up in the power band to kill some of the monster low end tq then keep the Rs low in the turns.. Makes things work better in the twisties.. The only way to push the bike hard through the real tight stuff with monster LET is to stay in the "friction zone" on the clutch else the motor wants to spin the rear tire from acceleration or deceleration..
I could afford/build to go any size I want on my EGC but it's staying a 107 or less (been a 103 for the last 30K).. Replacement parts are cheep, motor has a nice flat powerband. The boat is easy to steer in the tight stuff..
Max
QuoteI have been riding Harley's for almost 40 years now...and I have never had
a bike that wants to get up and go off idle like this one. She's sensitive for
sure. It's fun on wide open dry roads...I dont think it would like twisty's at
all.
This bike with this combo is not made for any wet road riding
conditions. It wouldn't take much for it to get from underneath you.
I
will have to debate on what to do next...I know it can't stay like this much
longer for me to be happy with it.
no matter what you do that bike aint no twisty bike ,the way the suspension is set up now.
get the lowering kit off of it . its like trying to ride a 140 hp hardtail as it is.
a good bump in the road sets it sideways ,with no throttle.
parking lots and friction braking ,is the way to go . no matter what cam or what hp.
a cam swap would soften it up. but the 117 drove you nuts because it didn't have the bottom end tq. you expected . so now you have had it both ways .
what way do you want it to be?
Quotea cam swap would soften it up. but the 117 drove you nuts because it didn't have the bottom end tq. you expected . so now you have had it both ways . what way do you want it to be?
After 5-6 dyno tunes, does No cents get one fer free? :wink:
Max
Put the 594's in it, dish the pistons, and have Jim work on the throttle sensitivity tip in.
Live with it. At some point Ray your going to have to call it done and or get another bike to f&*k with. :smiled:
It's just not friendly in turns at lower speeds. The twisty's I'm talking about are two slow speed 90* turns on the road I live on...nothing like the Dragon Tail. I have to crawl thru them now...were as I could go thru them at 25-30 mph with the 117. I guess it's just something I'll have to learn to deal with. It's a different animal for sure.
Your right...I'm done posting on it.
Quote from: No Cents on September 06, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
It's just not friendly in turns at lower speeds. The twisty's I'm talking about are two slow speed 90* turns on the road I live on...nothing like the Dragon Tail. I have to crawl thru them now...were as I could go thru them at 25-30 mph with the 117. I guess it's just something I'll have to learn to deal with. It's a different animal for sure.
Your right...I'm done posting on it.
Hey Ray, bottle up some of that torque you have on tap, and ship it to me :hyst:
I'm lookin" forward to seeing it make some shots at Beech Bend.... :up:
Quote from: No Cents on September 06, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
It's just not friendly in turns at lower speeds. The twisty's I'm talking about are two slow speed 90* turns on the road I live on...nothing like the Dragon Tail. I have to crawl thru them now...were as I could go thru them at 25-30 mph with the 117. I guess it's just something I'll have to learn to deal with. It's a different animal for sure.
Your right...I'm done posting on it.
check your e mail .Ray
load the map and do the turns again
Ray, When Herko tuned mine a few years ago he advised me of this very problem you are having. You could hit little bumps in the road and cause you to slightly blip the throttle and it was a result of the bigger TB's. He suggested that I ride with my hand partly cupping the switch housing that way it wasn't so twitchy until I got used to it.
Unless the 124 just scares you now! It's alright if you're scared...we won't bash you. :bike: :beer:
It's just something you'll get used to, after some time in the seat you won't even recognize it. Hell, after 4-5 years with mine now it feels stock to me. I have to ride someone else's bike to realize what I'm missing. :doh:
Just like 06 says, you will get acclimated to it, I did with mine, I have to ride the clutch in slow rides or cornering, one unintended blip of the throttle and this bike just jumps. I ride the twisties all the time and learned to just leave it in the low rpm, I had more problems with engine compression slowing me down to much and then giving throttle jerking the bike.
Man I wish I had your bike problems No Cents. LOL
Zach
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 06, 2013, 11:54:05 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 06, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
It's just not friendly in turns at lower speeds. The twisty's I'm talking about are two slow speed 90* turns on the road I live on...nothing like the Dragon Tail. I have to crawl thru them now...were as I could go thru them at 25-30 mph with the 117. I guess it's just something I'll have to learn to deal with. It's a different animal for sure.
Your right...I'm done posting on it.
check your e mail .Ray
load the map and do the turns again
:up: :up: :up:
it fixed it :smile: ...30 mph thru the two 90* "S" bends on my road...with giving it throttle accelerating all the way thru them...
the twitchiness with the full on/off throttle feeling is gone. I can definitely live with this...it's 1000% better.
Jim...you are the man! THANKS :wink:
...now I won't say anymore about it...
Happy to hear this because the gear change would of made things worse.
Pulled some timing in the top left quadrant Jim? :pop:
Now that is service right there.
:up: :up: Jim
Quote from: jam65 on September 06, 2013, 04:13:09 PM
Happy to hear this because the gear change would of made things worse.
I respectfully disagree, raising the ratio/numerically lower, will soften the bottom.. Glad to hear Jim got you fixed up Ray, reloading the map will be alot easier to change than the rear sprocket, should you miss the bottom end it had.
Quote from: laserp on September 06, 2013, 04:50:39 PM
Pulled some timing in the top left quadrant Jim? :pop:
No timing change .
Just like eric and mike suggested . I softened it up with throttle progressivity . At 2 %
That is where this bike lives most of the time .
Ray and I talked about this some . It was really throttle responsive and we might have to take some more out . Until his post about the 90 deg turns , I thought he just needed practice on parking lot maneuvers .
And the bike is a point and shoot ride , if you light the wick ... You Bette be pointed straight .
As long as it don't effect the blip factor . Its all good . That bike is angry . I like it .
Throttle response is amazing for a FBW bike .
Durwood
I think jay meant when he lowered the gears with the chain drive it would make it worse .
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 06, 2013, 05:09:49 PM
Quote from: laserp on September 06, 2013, 04:50:39 PM
Pulled some timing in the top left quadrant Jim? :pop:
No timing change .
Just like eric and mike suggested . I softened it up with throttle progressivity . At 2 %
That is where this bike lives most of the time .
Ray and I talked about this some . It was really throttle responsive and we might have to take some more out . Until his post about the 90 deg turns , I thought he just needed practice on parking lot maneuvers .
And the bike is a point and shoot ride , if you light the wick ... You Bette be pointed straight .
As long as it don't effect the blip factor . Its all good . That bike is angry . I like it .
Throttle response is amazing for a FBW bike .
Durwood
I think jay meant when he lowered the gears with the chain drive it would make it worse .
Ok, I thought it was a response to my suggestion :embarrassed: :beer:
Hey Stroker, send me a download with 11:1 pistons and a set of -1's..... :hyst:
all's good!...blip factor is spot on. Throttle response is still excellent and didn't seem to change.
It just lost the jerky twitchy full on throttle feeling at slow speeds while trying to corner. It rolls smoothly thru the corners now with the throttle being able to be used...no need to pull the clutch in and try to feather it thru.
It still needs to be pointed straight in the right direction when you twist hard on it...it's on the rev limiter in the blink of an eye still.
Thanks again for the quick fix Jim :up:
Ray, have you upgraded your suspension? More especially the front end?
no...front is stock with chrome lower legs and the back is still using the factory shorter FLHX air shocks with a 1" lower kit.
Quote from: No Cents on September 07, 2013, 04:31:27 AM
no...front is stock with chrome lower legs and the back is still using the factory shorter FLHX air shocks with a 1" lower kit.
Well now you have the engine done , invest some money in the handling department.
Quote from: TXCHOP on September 06, 2013, 09:46:08 AM
Ray, not sure if it matters, but you will get used to it to an extent. My last 3 builds all did it.
My new build i went smaller on purpose.
What's your latest build?
Dan sent me a pm yesterday. He did a S&S 124" crate motor with the 640 cams. He said he was putting it in yesterday.
Quote from: No Cents on September 07, 2013, 08:27:21 AM
Dan sent me a pm yesterday. He did a S&S 124" crate motor with the 640 cams. He said he was putting it in yesterday.
Bet it don't stay "crate" forever.. :pop:
Yup,crate S&S124t..10.8comp with ez start 640's.
I expect this to be the best of both worlds. I plan on racking up some serious miles on this puppy. Dont with high compression, big horsepower stuff for now. When i tell guys i want to calm it down a bit,sell the 117 and get a 124, they just dont understand. :potstir:
It would have been done this week,but my 3phase kit from cycle electric is on back order and i am going back to a belt drive. My3guyz 630 kit is toasted...
Quote from: TXCHOP on September 07, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
Yup,crate S&S124t..10.8comp with ez start 640's.
I expect this to be the best of both worlds. I plan on racking up some serious miles on this puppy. Dont with high compression, big horsepower stuff for now. When i tell guys i want to calm it down a bit,sell the 117 and get a 124, they just dont understand. :potstir:
It would have been done this week,but my 3phase kit from cycle electric is on back order and i am going back to a belt drive. My3guyz 630 kit is toasted...
Ray will just let any ole 124 cat out of the bag :hyst:
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 07, 2013, 09:36:44 AM
Quote from: TXCHOP on September 07, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
Yup,crate S&S124t..10.8comp with ez start 640's.
I expect this to be the best of both worlds. I plan on racking up some serious miles on this puppy. Dont with high compression, big horsepower stuff for now. When i tell guys i want to calm it down a bit,sell the 117 and get a 124, they just dont understand. :potstir:
It would have been done this week,but my 3phase kit from cycle electric is on back order and i am going back to a belt drive. My3guyz 630 kit is toasted...
Ray will just let any ole 124 cat out of the bag :hyst:
:hyst: :up:
I agree with you on the best of both worlds, TXCHOP. I selected the same setup but I may pull the heads when the snow flies and work them over and bump compression up on the 640's a little. I'm hoping to build a nasty FXR this winter also. 126 cubes Twin Cam maybe, Delphi EFI, 180-200 rear tire chain, 13:1 compression or so, extended swing arm yada, yada, yada... Still undecided but you can see what Im thinking.
Ray, its aint cheap but I recently just decided to go with the Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 kit for the front end. I just got the parts in a few days ago. I had them set me up with some pretty heavy springs based on my pretty heavy ass (240 lbs) and the fork caps have an on the fly adjustment for compression and rebound up front and a set of 11-3/4" Bitubo rear shocks. Its been assholes and elbows in the shop so I wont get them installed for a couple of weeks probably but I suspect it will be a huge improvement over the stock setup with SE fork oil I've been running. Maybe you could order up a set and let us know how they do before I get mine on. :) I talked to Howard at Motorcycle Metal and he says they are the best thing available but almost grossly overpriced. Oh well, I've wasted money on other stuff before and I figure a strong motor deserves a good suspension and brake upgrade to support it. If they turn out to be the sweet nipples I've been led to believe they are, I will start offering the install on the forks as a service in the shop.
those look like some nice suspension upgrades. I would have to save some coin up for that one...very expensive stuff there.
Let me know how you like it.
Quote from: TXCHOP on September 07, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
Yup,crate S&S124t..10.8comp with ez start 640's.
I expect this to be the best of both worlds. I plan on racking up some serious miles on this puppy. Dont with high compression, big horsepower stuff for now. When i tell guys i want to calm it down a bit,sell the 117 and get a 124, they just dont understand. :potstir:
It would have been done this week,but my 3phase kit from cycle electric is on back order and i am going back to a belt drive. My3guyz 630 kit is toasted...
Did you check head cc's before installing?
"I softened it up with throttle progressivity . At 2 % "
:up: :up: Guarantee the local dealer never heard of that. Sure wish you'd move south Jim.
Quote from: Deye76 on September 08, 2013, 05:04:08 PM
Sure wish you'd move south Jim.
:agree: I'm thinking Evansville :up:
I tried to get him to move a couple states east already...couldn't get 'em to budge...he's dug in like a tick :hyst:
Maybe because Jim already lives in Paradise.
Quote from: jam65 on September 09, 2013, 03:56:53 AM
Maybe because Jim already lives in Paradise.
LOL!!! :hyst:
anyone got a set of S&S 640 gear drive cams for the 07-up models? The wheels are turning :hyst:
I got Vince @ Burns Stainless designing me a pipe. He said he will send me a sketch of it in a few days. It will be very similar to the bagger Guppy pipe...with a 3 step head pipe and a baffled can.
Quote from: No Cents on September 17, 2013, 02:56:13 PM
I got Vince @ Burns Stainless designing me a pipe. He said he will send me a sketch of it in a few days. It will be very similar to the bagger Guppy pipe...with a 3 step head pipe and a baffled can.
good decision! now find someone able to weld that beauty up!
Quote from: Durwood on September 08, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on September 08, 2013, 05:04:08 PM
Sure wish you'd move south Jim.
:agree: I'm thinking Evansville :up:
Evansville works for me, anything is better then the 100 miles of ass beaten two lane road I have to take.
Vince @ Burns is all over it.
He just sent me a flat sketch lay out of it. It has 3 step head pipes of each being 10.50" long. It starts out with a 1 7/8" pipe, to a 2", to a 2 1/8" to their collector with the can. It looks sweet.
Quote from: No Cents on September 17, 2013, 04:11:23 PM
Vince @ Burns is all over it.
He just sent me a flat sketch lay out of it. It has 3 step head pipes of each being 10.50" long. It starts out with a 1 7/8" pipe, to a 2", to a 2 1/8" to their collector with the can. It looks sweet.
:up: Keep the camera warmed up, Ray.
Quote from: frankieb on September 17, 2013, 03:36:14 PM
Quote from: Durwood on September 08, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on September 08, 2013, 05:04:08 PM
Sure wish you'd move south Jim.
:agree: I'm thinking Evansville :up:
Evansville works for me, anything is better then the 100 miles of ass beaten two lane road I have to take.
:hyst: Ain't that the truth, Frankie, you can take I-64 to I-57, then North to Mattoon exit,Jim is about 5 minutes from there.
It adds 50 miles to the trip but only about 15 minutes because of the interstate speeds.
Ray :up: on the Burns pipe, and I agree now that you are 8-up.. :hyst:
Daren...I just paid for the Burns pipe...it'll be on the way shortly.
Now for the other goodies I'll be needing...they might take a little longer to be made :dgust:
Ray are you still headed to Bowling Green 9/28-9/29?
If so will you be running the new pipe there?
How did you end up, chain or belt?
I've got everything except the rear sprocket. They told me they would be done this week. I don't know how fast I will get the pipe from Burns...and how long it will take me to mock it up and have it welded. I'm still hoping to make it.
The wifeeepooh came down with the shingles last week...yes were getting old. :hyst: But if she says she feeling fine...I still plan on going.
:up:
Looking foward to seeing how the burns pipe works out.
Im excited to see how this pipe works on the street. I think it will do well on the dyno but my real interest in this scenario is how it works on the street. It seems built to be a dyno shootout type pipe but Ive been wrong many times before and it would be nice to be proven wrong again to see if this really is a legitimate pipe option for a lot of big power street motors. Does the pipe have a baffle? That alone could make or break it for a street application. If not, its probably going to be on the dyno for some extra time but Im sure it that will get ironed out. Whats the ETA on the pipe? Does the pipe come with heat shields?
Hope your wife does okay - shingles can be excruciating and there's not a whole lot to be done. A friend was down hard for a few months dealing with that. No picnic.
The pipe Burns specced is the exact same one Vince specced for me for the 124. The pipe on there now was built for my 117 and is stepped smaller - 1 3/4 - 1 7/8 - 2" with 11" runs and into the same muffler you mentioned. It's loud. I wear ear plugs and a FF. It's still loud. Here's a shot.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
:up:
Thanks...she is having a hard time with them right now. It's pretty much got her down to the bed. She's a fighter...and won't give up...but she is in a lot of pain.
I won't have time to mess with the Burns pipe now probably for sometime. I'm pretty much waiting on her hand and foot when I get home from work. My son works 3rd shift...so he helps her until I get home.
Yep - you have to do what's most important first. Best wishes for her speedy recovery.
If I have to .... I will come get that little ole toy hauler of yours , And carry the 8up bagger to B/G . I got a truck to pull it now . :wink:
Hope she has a speedy recovery . :rose:
Ray, Hope the little woman gets to feeling better :up:, and hope to see you at Beech bend...I will be there early Sunday morning.
:up:
thanks men...we appreciate it. Hopefully she will snap out of this thing quickly. She was actually walking around in the house when I got home from work a few minutes ago. That's a good sign!
She prolly wants to get on her feet to be sure you don't go building more motorsickle engines. :embarrassed:
Best wishes on her speedy recovery Ray. I had shingles as a child. It was no picnic at all. -Tutt
Quote from: FXDRYDR on September 18, 2013, 05:51:39 PM
She prolly wants to get on her feet to be sure you don't go building more motorsickle engines. :embarrassed:
:hyst: she just shakes her head and give me a :slap: everytime I walk in from the barn.
Thanks Andy...
:hug:
for all concerned with the wifeeepooh...we appreciate it.
Yes indeed, thoughts and prayers for your wife and her speedy recovery! You sir however, I don't think there is a cure for what you got!! :hyst:
K.
Ray, I hope she recovers fast. you and your son are doing the right thing, much respect and hang in there
:agree:
Vince @ Burns Stainless just sent me a picture of my reverse cone Megaphone muffler all welded up with the baffle inside.
I like it...but I think he was teasing me...this is all he sent :hyst:
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
If that's the outlet, I like the shape!
yep...that's the 5" tail end of the muffler housing.
JFYI...Burns makes each muffler housing and collector...custom per order...no finished products laying on shelves to pull and ship.
I didn't know that when I placed my order. They are a very nice company to deal with.
Each exhaust is computer designed for your engines specifications. Everything is taken into account to design the best exhaust possible for your application.
I'm excited to see what this exhaust will turn out like.
Just wait until you feel the weight difference of their can compared to what you are using now.
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2013, 06:32:18 PM
yep...that's the 5" tail end of the muffler housing.
JFYI...Burns makes each muffler housing and collector...custom per order...no finished products laying on shelves to pull and ship.
I didn't know that when I placed my order. They are a very nice company to deal with.
Each exhaust is computer designed for your engines specifications. Everything is taken into account to design the best exhaust possible for your application.
I'm excited to see what this exhaust will turn out like.
Hi
Can or does burns tell you how much torque or power increase there could be.Do they say what diameter and length of primary to use,will it be a multiple step header.How much do you figure it will cost for the finish exhaust ?
Thanks John
Looks like they have a robot for doing the stainless welds, looks like some real top end workmanship, your going to have to make a sound recording and let us all hear he roar when you get it all done. :smiled: Bob
Quote from: John/1 on September 26, 2013, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2013, 06:32:18 PM
yep...that's the 5" tail end of the muffler housing.
JFYI...Burns makes each muffler housing and collector...custom per order...no finished products laying on shelves to pull and ship.
I didn't know that when I placed my order. They are a very nice company to deal with.
Each exhaust is computer designed for your engines specifications. Everything is taken into account to design the best exhaust possible for your application.
I'm excited to see what this exhaust will turn out like.
go to Burns Stainless web site. On the top of the page there is a specification form to fill out that tells them everything about your engine. They ask you what your engine size is, # of cylinders, usable rpm range, max rpm, your peak hp/tq goal, bore/stroke, compression ratio, valve sizes, complete cam spec's, port sizes, rocker arm ratio, etc. They leave no stone unturned.
They enter all the info into a computer and it designs the exhaust best for your application and needs.
Burns will then send you a drawing of the lengths and muffler suggestion to you for your approval. It will show you what is needed in each step of tubing and it's length with the overall length of all the steps of the tubing before it hits the collector. The muffler and collector will come welded together from Burns. You will have to mock up and weld your head pipes together for the look/routing your wanting for them. You will also have to fab up a mounting bracket to hold the muffler and collector on.
My exhaust was 1K.
Or... you can request they NOT weld the can and collector together and go with a slip-fit - they can provide a clamp and/or springs - and then you can switch to a straight-through for the track, a Super Trapp or you can reuse the can if you decide to build a slightly bigger pipe... or whatever else you might want to try.
Dunno if you can see the spring on mine but I used a spring and the clamp. Works well. Looks like a dirt bike set up.
Still haven't heard, how do you get heat shields? Will they make a set for you?
they dont make heat shields...if you want them...then you would have to make them yourself. Almost each head pipe is made differently by the individual...so they leave that up to you to decide if you want them or not. I'm sure they could supply the stainless if you wanted to make heat shields.
I'm not going to run any myself. I want that raw stainless look with the welds exposed.
I run my LSR 2-1 without heat shields and I like the look. Have thought about having them ceramic coated inside and out to help keep the heat in?
Quote from: No Cents on September 27, 2013, 02:55:53 AM
Quote from: John/1 on September 26, 2013, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2013, 06:32:18 PM
yep...that's the 5" tail end of the muffler housing.
JFYI...Burns makes each muffler housing and collector...custom per order...no finished products laying on shelves to pull and ship.
I didn't know that when I placed my order. They are a very nice company to deal with.
Each exhaust is computer designed for your engines specifications. Everything is taken into account to design the best exhaust possible for your application.
I'm excited to see what this exhaust will turn out like.
go to Burns Stainless web site. On the top of the page there is a specification form to fill out that tells them everything about your engine. They ask you what your engine size is, # of cylinders, usable rpm range, max rpm, your peak hp/tq goal, bore/stroke, compression ratio, valve sizes, complete cam spec's, port sizes, rocker arm ratio, etc. They leave no stone unturned.
They enter all the info into a computer and it designs the exhaust best for your application and needs.
Burns will then send you a drawing of the lengths and muffler suggestion to you for your approval. It will show you what is needed in each step of tubing and it's length with the overall length of all the steps of the tubing before it hits the collector. The muffler and collector will come welded together from Burns. You will have to mock up and weld your head pipes together for the look/routing your wanting for them. You will also have to fab up a mounting bracket to hold the muffler and collector on.
My exhaust was 1K.
Hi
You could weld the front and slip fit the rear,maybe easier to remove and install also stronger with one side welded.
:agree:
thanks...I thought about that already. I will have to wait and see how long the head pipe steps come out to. I would like to have it like the RB Racing Pro Stock pipes does as far as fitting it together. They use the rear headpipe welded to the collector and slip the front head pipe in...either way has to be stronger with one of the head pipes welded to the collector as a one piece unit.
Neither front or back is welded on RB pro stock spyder, both slip fit.
The RB Pro Stock I had, the rear was welded and the front slipped in.
I read it wrong, thought he said pro stock spyder...
Quote from: AllanW on September 27, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
I read it wrong, thought he said pro stock spyder...
They do make a bunch of different pipes, it's all good. :up:
this is what I'm kind of hoping to do with the rear head pipe...welding it to the collector as one unit and slipping the front head pipe in.
[attach=0]
and the pipes end result I'm trying for is close to this...except for having 3 piece stepped head pipes...with each step being equal in volume.
[attach=1]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
This will be interesting, no doubt about it and I think running the stainless in raw form will definitely give it some character especially after its been on the dyno for a while. I just put one of those LSR pipes on a customers bike and it stuck together with high temp silicone. Not really what I would want but to each their own I suppose or... Maybe a nice clamp would be better or the old spring trick might due. If that rear primary swoops out like a Fang or D&D pipe, with no heat shields that could get a little hot but if it stays down like the one you posted, you will probably be just fine. I'm very interested in seeing if this pipe is a practical option. You gotta post another YouTube video when you light it, Ray. I think I can speak for everyone when I say I gotta hear this thing.
the rear cylinder swoop on the Zilla and Fang is one reason why I went with making a custom exhaust from Burns Stainless. I never did like the rear cylinder swoop extending out like it does. I even called Leonard at D&D a few years ago and asked if I could have them make me a Zilla head pipe without it. He said no...you just have to learn to deal with it. I have dealt with it for 5 years now...now it's time for it to go and try a pipe truly designed for your engine...instead of an off the shelf exhaust system.
When mocking the Burn's up...I will try to hold the rear head pipe tucked in closer and follow the cylinder like the Guppy pipe...instead of the long outward swoop like the Zilla and Fang.
I think the key to making the Burn's pipe perform to it's full potential...is to make sure each of the 3 primary steps are of equal volume before hitting the collector. This will take a little time with trial and error fitting and measuring along the way...but eventually I will get both the front and rear head pipes equal in volume.
I will definitely like the challenge of getting the head pipes to look like I want them to. I'm hoping everything will be nice and tucked in so no heat shields will even be needed...but that is to be seen.
Ray, When you have yours perfected you can make one for my softie. :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 25, 2013, 09:37:42 AM
I love the belt and wish it had held on the fatboy. Two things that save them on the street is lack of traction and clutch slip. Once the bandit went in the bike and the clutch was rock solid the old stock belt broke. After trying a new HD belt and having it brake on the first launch on traction compound with 15 lbs of air in the back tire and then breaking the "better" aftermarket belt at track day, the Softail got a nice big o-ring chain, it also lets you mess with the rear gearing easier. I have seen more than a couple 5 speed bikes at Vic's shop that when the belt breaks it lashes the gears and takes out the transmission. I have not seen it with a six speed so maybe they can take the abuse. All that said you will have the time of your life running that monster down the track and the only drawback is you can become addicted with one use of the drug. :wink:
Chewed the teeth off my belt in the 2nd round of qualifying today .
Everything hooked way to good .
Ray ....where's my backup bike? :crash:
yeah Ray...what gives? :fish:
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 28, 2013, 09:51:44 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 25, 2013, 09:37:42 AM
I love the belt and wish it had held on the fatboy. Two things that save them on the street is lack of traction and clutch slip. Once the bandit went in the bike and the clutch was rock solid the old stock belt broke. After trying a new HD belt and having it brake on the first launch on traction compound with 15 lbs of air in the back tire and then breaking the "better" aftermarket belt at track day, the Softail got a nice big o-ring chain, it also lets you mess with the rear gearing easier. I have seen more than a couple 5 speed bikes at Vic's shop that when the belt breaks it lashes the gears and takes out the transmission. I have not seen it with a six speed so maybe they can take the abuse. All that said you will have the time of your life running that monster down the track and the only drawback is you can become addicted with one use of the drug. :wink:
Chewed the teeth off my belt in the 2nd round of qualifying today .
Everything hooked way to good .
Ray ....where's my backup bike? :crash:
come get it Jim...the Duracell is sitting in the barn. I'm still sitting here with the wifeeepooh.
She isn't well.
Ray
Jim...if you decide to go chain drive...all's I can say is...if you have Sidewinder make you a rear sprocket...be prepared for a wait. It's been over a month wait for mine...and I was told that I would have them this week.
But...no sprockets has showed up to date.
Customer relations is not a strong point with Sidewinder.
Quote from: No Cents on September 29, 2013, 05:59:36 AM
Jim...if you decide to go chain drive...all's I can say is...if you have Sidewinder make you a rear sprocket...be prepared for a wait. It's been over a month wait for mine...and I was told that I would have them this week.
But...no sprockets has showed up to date.
Customer relations is not a strong point with Sidewinder.
Keep in mind I posted a link to a guy who had a nightmare experience with that company.
Also something that I've been wondering about. If your trying to build a high performance pipe, isn't it important to keep as much heat inside the pipe as possible to keep the velocity as high as possible? I understand about the importance of appearance but just a question for the guys who know how to design exhausts. Just questioning the performance of coated vs uncoated pipes.
Quote from: No Cents on September 29, 2013, 03:21:44 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 28, 2013, 09:51:44 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 25, 2013, 09:37:42 AM
I love the belt and wish it had held on the fatboy. Two things that save them on the street is lack of traction and clutch slip. Once the bandit went in the bike and the clutch was rock solid the old stock belt broke. After trying a new HD belt and having it brake on the first launch on traction compound with 15 lbs of air in the back tire and then breaking the "better" aftermarket belt at track day, the Softail got a nice big o-ring chain, it also lets you mess with the rear gearing easier. I have seen more than a couple 5 speed bikes at Vic's shop that when the belt breaks it lashes the gears and takes out the transmission. I have not seen it with a six speed so maybe they can take the abuse. All that said you will have the time of your life running that monster down the track and the only drawback is you can become addicted with one use of the drug. :wink:
Chewed the teeth off my belt in the 2nd round of qualifying today .
Everything hooked way to good .
Ray ....where's my backup bike? :crash:
come get it Jim...the Duracell is sitting in the barn. I'm still sitting here with the wifeeepooh.
She isn't well.
Ray
Sorry to hear that Jim, I have felt that pain too. If you had taken Ray's bike too you would have had a matching set by now. The up side would have been Ray would be able to tell people that he switched to chain because the belt would not hold on his bike, now he can only say he thought it would not hold and took it off before it broke and stranded him.
Adrenalin is the most expensive drug known to man.
QuoteAdrenalin is the most expensive drug known to man.
That's a no chiter
Just playing with you ray .
Family first :up:
the bike hasn't been seeing a lot of miles lately. I run it back and forth to work...20 miles round trip...then it sits while I sit with the wife.
I was really looking forward to making it this weekend...but I could not leave her as sick as she is right now. I thought she was getting a little better last week...but she has made a turn for the worse this week...now she has the flu with it :banghead:
The old Duracell might of gave you the same results as 1FSTRK said :nix: ...but hopefully here soon...I'll have the sprocket for the chain drive conversion and won't ever have to worry about shredding the belt.
Thumper...I know you warned me and others about Sidewinder. I knew going in that they didn't have the best customer relations...but their Ti3 sprockets had rave reviews from everything I could find on them. They seemed to hold up a lot better than the aluminum sprockets from what I researched. My belt hasn't been tested here much lately...I just putt it around...hopefully I will eventually see the sprockets arrive before the belt has the opportunity to break and leave me stranded. If I'm not ripping on it...it should hold.
I want to keep the exterior raw stainless look on the exhaust...but I have wondered if the inside of the head pipes could be ceramic coated once they are mocked up and all welded together.
I was going to contact Jett-Hot Monday and ask them if it is possible to only coat the inside of the stainless steel head pipes...and would I see any heat reduction if only the inside was coated.
I hope Sidewinder comes through for you. I've got a PM sprocket on now and have been thinking about a Sidewinder for my next one. The aluminum PM is holding up fine so far.
:up:
thanks. The plan was to have the chain conversion done and take the bike down to Bowling Green this weekend to let Jim rip on it.
Both plans failed...story of my life :doh:
Quote from: No Cents on September 29, 2013, 12:23:03 PM
:up:
thanks. The plan was to have the chain conversion done and take the bike down to Bowling Green this weekend to let Jim rip on it.
Both plans failed...story of my life :doh:
Hi
When I built by pipes they are 2 into 2 j bends mild steel.I painted them with flat black heat paint spray can easy to touch up on occasion.
No Cents, I was just reading the Burns web site. They are saying that the coefficient of thermal conductivity is so low with stainless that a coating is not necessary.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx (http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx)
:up:
thanks Thumper...I found that out today. I made a few phone calls and the head pipes will be made in their natural state...no ceramic coating will go in the inside.
added later:
it looks like this will be a good week for me finally to be able to get prepared to do a little wrenching here in the near future.
Burn's shipped the exhaust out Monday, and Sidewinder said they will be shipping out the sprockets on Wednesday.
The bike might find it's way back up on the lift in the next few weeks for a little loving on.
the UPS guy dropped a couple packages off at the house today while I was at work :bike: The Burn's exhaust and the Sidewinder sprockets.
[attach=0]
Jam65 wanted me to weight the Zilla muffler and the Burns muffler to see the difference
The Zilla muffler and baffle without the clamp weighed 9.790 pounds.
The Burns muffler with baffle and the collector welded on to it weighed 4.680 pounds.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Where are you trying to make your power 4500 or all top end? If all top end that pipe will be to short.
I'm sorry which cam are you using? I missed it some where. I saw Tman 662-2
Thanks FD
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 02:46:43 PM
the UPS guy dropped a couple packages off at the house today while I was at work :bike: The Burn's exhaust and the Sidewinder sprockets.
First thing I'd do is check that the sprockets fit. :wink:
way ahead of you FSG...they fit perfect. I was shocked.
Frank...S&S 640 cams set @ 11.86:1.
How long is that pipe total I show at 5000 rpm power should be around 67" but I'm not sure where you want your power range
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 03:54:06 PM
way ahead of you FSG...they fit perfect. I was shocked.
Frank...S&S 640 cams set @ 11.86:1.
Burns computer designed the exhaust for the engine with all my upcoming engine build spec's. I sent them a picture of the Guppy pipe I always liked and asked them if this pipe would work on my build.
They came back and suggested to me a pipe with 3 equally stepped head pipes...10.5" in length each step, and a 17.5" baffled muffler housing.
One of the questions they asked me was...where do you want your power band?
I told them from between 1500 to 6400 rpm.
This is what they ended up designing for me and said it would be the best all around pipe for my engines specifications, and I would see a great improvement over my Zilla that I currently run.
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 04:37:17 PM
Burns computer designed the exhaust for the engine with all my upcoming engine build spec's. I sent them a picture of the Guppy pipe I always liked and asked them if this pipe would work on my build.
They came back and suggested to me a pipe with 3 equally stepped head pipes...10.5" in length each step, and a 17.5" baffled muffler housing.
One of the questions they asked me was...where do you want your power band?
I told them from between 1500 to 6400 rpm.
This is what they ended up designing for me and said it would be the best all around pipe for my engines specifications, and I would see a great improvement over my Zilla that I currently run.
LOL. Bet they've never heard that before.
Zach
I know...I was probably the 1st one to ever tell them that :hyst:
First thing I'd do is check that the sprockets fit. :wink:
The second thing to do is ship that stuff to me. :teeth:
Ok at 6400 rpm pipe est when I do the math should be
First step for custom race pipe is
9"
11"
15"
Merge to 3.5 long collector 3. Dia
25" muffler3" dia baffle
Again this my calculation. Please do not take this I'm wrong way.
I hope it all works out for you.
Quote from: biggzed on October 04, 2013, 04:42:04 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 04:37:17 PM
Burns computer designed the exhaust for the engine with all my upcoming engine build spec's. I sent them a picture of the Guppy pipe I always liked and asked them if this pipe would work on my build.
They came back and suggested to me a pipe with 3 equally stepped head pipes...10.5" in length each step, and a 17.5" baffled muffler housing.
One of the questions they asked me was...where do you want your power band?
I told them from between 1500 to 6400 rpm.
This is what they ended up designing for me and said it would be the best all around pipe for my engines specifications, and I would see a great improvement over my Zilla that I currently run.
LOL. Bet they've never heard that before.
Zach
Frank...I'll send the lengths you say they should be to Burns...and show them what you've calculated.
I do have plenty of stainless tubing to adjust my lengths if needed.
I'll let you know what they say.
Any dynos that show the Wegner as being a problem with a build? I don't recall any, although there are not a lot of them. 1 thing I know is Ray will let us know the outcome good or bad. :up:
Frank...here is the Engine Specification Form that Burns has you 1st fill out...and then they design your exhaust off of this form specificly to the information provided.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: Deye76 on October 04, 2013, 06:51:25 PM
Any dynos that show the Wegner as being a problem with a build? I don't recall any, although there are not a lot of them. 1 thing I know is Ray will let us know the outcome good or bad. :up:
the 2-1 's dont blow up any big hp/tq down low. they make big HP/tq in the high RPM's though.
best hp on my bike was with my wegner . it is just a big flat blaa until it hits. ( I like a responsive throttle) short shifting is when you notice it.
light the wick and shift at high rpms it rocks.
so Frank is giving different head pipe length steps than Burns.
What step lengths would give more tq/hp down lower then...a shorter or longer 1st step...and then what for the 2nd & 3rd steps?
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
so Frank is giving different head pipe length steps than Burns.
What step lengths would give more tq/hp down lower then...a shorter or longer 1st step...and then what for the 2nd & 3rd steps?
I think burns always uses 3 10.5 sections. they just use diff diameters.
it's a test and see situation. if i were betting i would think the longer first step would produce more hp/tq down low. but your not talking much of a diff. as long as the exhaust isnt pushing back down low , your cams overlap ,wont be a factor. you build it I will tune it . i really dont know . :nix:
custom pipes scare me. they can be a hero or zero :chop: :scoot:
We'll said Jim. And the longer first step makes better tq down low.
There is so much going on. And dia of each step makes a huge difference. Baffle is also key how it helps draw air out. Bends in the pipe front and rear. On the fang pipe if you see the steps they are staged different because of the bends. Jim you have my fang pipe look at the stages of length of the primary's. Each pipe is the same length if you stretch them out but front and rear are staged different in primary length to balance exhaust flow.
Sorry I'm on my iphone typing. No cents you are more than welcome to call me would be happy help out over the phone the best I can.
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 04, 2013, 08:23:26 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
so Frank is giving different head pipe length steps than Burns.
What step lengths would give more tq/hp down lower then...a shorter or longer 1st step...and then what for the 2nd & 3rd steps?
I think burns always uses 3 10.5 sections. they just use diff diameters.
it's a test and see situation. if i were betting i would think the longer first step would produce more hp/tq down low. but your not talking much of a diff. as long as the exhaust isnt pushing back down low , your cams overlap ,wont be a factor. you build it I will tune it . i really dont know . :nix:
custom pipes scare me. they can be a hero or zero :chop: :scoot:
i know Ron Dickey told me once on his and Dans's Bonneville motor, he tested 2"pipe . 2-2 exhaust and had like 66" of pipe on it before it quite making hp. now thats some kinda custom exhaust :hyst:
Someone please correct me if I'm looking at this wrong.
I think it was Kirby (prodrag1320) that said the best way to get the primaries equal was to fill them with water on each step and cut/adjust the longer one to make them equal...so they end up having the same water volume inside each step of tubing...then move to the next stepped length and repeat the same process until you have all three steps of your head pipes equal in length and volume.
That was my goal as it stands now...I'll be trying to make each step hold equal water volume and have the overall length of the head pipes the same at the collector...basically what Frank said...if you could lay the bends out straight on a table...both head pipes would be the same length at the collector.
I got the flanges mocked up today with the short pieces of tubing that goes thru them into the exhaust ports. I'll take them over to my friends to have him tig weld around the outside of the flanges tomorrow. I copied this 1st piece of tubing with the flanges off an RB Racing LSR I have...it measured 1-1/4" in length and the 1st step of tubing will be tacked onto this during mock up.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
slid some of the pipe together to get a feel for it.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Front pipe
1st step 5 1/2
2nd 26
3rd 11 1/4
Rear pipe
1st 3 5/8
2nd 28 1/2
3rd 9 1/4
Let me know where to ship it to frank.
It off and ready to go out.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null_zps7305a865.jpg)
I think you have your work cut out for you (pun intended) to do better than the pipe that Jim just posted but it will sure be fun to watch you take a stab at it. Im almost glad you tried this route instead of buying the Fang from me, Ray. Like Jim said earlier, these types of pipes are either a hero or a zero. Lets see what it do!
Quote from: No Cents on October 05, 2013, 12:58:33 PM
I got the flanges mocked up today with the short pieces of tubing that goes thru them into the exhaust ports. I'll take them over to my friends to have him tig weld around the outside of the flanges tomorrow. I copied this 1st piece of tubing with the flanges off an RB Racing LSR I have...it measured 1-1/4" in length and the 1st step of tubing will be tacked onto this during mock up.
[attach=0]
You have an rb racing pipe? Which one do you have?
Quote from: No Cents on October 05, 2013, 01:06:33 PM
slid some of the pipe together to get a feel for it.
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Better get busy Ray, the clock is ticking :pop:
it was a LSR right side drive. Some guy ordered it for a custom bike he was building...and when it didn't fit on the bike...he took a hammer to it and tried to make it fit. So he ended up selling it on E-Bay. I paid $100.00 for it and thought I might be able to do something with it.
I cut it up in an attempt to salvage something...but eventually scrapped the idea when I found the muffler housing and baffle was flattened out too far from his hammering on it.
Quote from: Durwood on October 05, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 05, 2013, 01:06:33 PM
slid some of the pipe together to get a feel for it.
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Better get busy Ray, the clock is ticking :pop:
yessum boss...still shakin the bush boss :hyst:
"the 2-1 's dont blow up any big hp/tq down low."
All of them ?
Guess I'm confused, thought Wegner was for high hp, not riding in the mountains. Isn't Ray shooting for max effort. :nix:
I'll answer that one for you...no I'm not going for max effort.
I'm not going to go crazy with my compression (11.86:1) and my ccp's should only be around 203 when it's done.
This exhaust is something I've always wanted to try ever since PW Morris showed us a picture of it a few years ago. Beings Brian is not making them...I figured I would try to duplicate it as close as I could.
Hell...it might be the biggest pipe failure of my life...but I've got to try or I'll never know.
It wont be the 1st time I tried something and it not work...but I'm willing to try and maybe save someone else the headache in the process. But maybe...it just might surprise me and be the best pipe I've ever ran. At this point I'm invested into it, so we will see what happens. :wink:
Hi
I believe custom pipe is more important when tuning for hp in a specific rpm range,to control reversion at the exhaust valve when the motor comes on cam can lead to a better intake charge. Also like tuning intake track lenght,tuning the pulse or wave.
I agree with you, John. Thats why I think the Fang pipe will be very hard to beat for a street driven bike but Im glad to see the OP take the bull by the horns and take a shot at making a better pipe. Im pretty impressed with the information Burns asks for in their questionnaire for building a pipe and from what I've heard, jam65, another poster here, picked up huge gains running a Burns pipe. I do not recall seeing his dyno sheet and If I said it once, Ive said it a thousand times, a dyno sheet only tells 1% of the story and thats at 100% throttle. The other 99 are what is important on the streets. Still looking forward to the results of this pipe and hoping that we can see some sweep test results from it at 25% throttle, 50% throttle, 75% throttle would be really nice as well.
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on October 05, 2013, 07:35:34 PM
I agree with you, John. Thats why I think the Fang pipe will be very hard to beat for a street driven bike but Im glad to see the OP take the bull by the horns and take a shot at making a better pipe. Im pretty impressed with the information Burns asks for in their questionnaire for building a pipe and from what I've heard, jam65, another poster here, picked up huge gains running a Burns pipe. I do not recall seeing his dyno sheet and If I said it once, Ive said it a thousand times, a dyno sheet only tells 1% of the story and thats at 100% throttle. The other 99 are what is important on the streets. Still looking forward to the results of this pipe and hoping that we can see some sweep test results from it at 25% throttle, 50% throttle, 75% throttle would be really nice as well.
Hi
Maybe drago can tell us how much work and time it took to to develop that exhaust on and off the dyno,I just think there is more to it than Burn's questionnaire.The design of hd motor is different from others.Building a drag pipe for hp is likely cheaper easier to do put the money that you would save into a better cylinder head.Because that is where the power come from.More air maybe a smaller cam with more grunt to move a couch.
I believe John/1 posted he made his pipes, and it seems he is very happy with his outcome. Jay (jam65) has pm'd me and told me that his pipe comes on strong at 3000 rpm's and up. But Jay did admit to me that it's not much for producing much bottom end torque.
My take on all this is that I have already found out that the 124 power plant produces plenty of low end torque all on it's own with just it's displacement...and I have noticed that when I twist the wick on it...it's already up into the 3-4000 rpm range very quickly. Hopefully this is where the Burns pipe will let the engine really come to life. That's my goal.
I have bounced it off the rev limiter plenty of times...and it gets there in the blink of an eye right now. So if this Burns pipe will let this engine exhale better at those rpm's and start building more power at 3K and up...I'm thinking it should be able to carry the hp/tq out a little better than my Zilla does. If it does...it's a win/win situation for me and I'll be able to hold my head up that I actually accomplished my goal with my barn built exhaust system...if not I will just have to hold my head down so everyone can laugh at me :hyst: ...then I'll drop back and punt and chalk it up as a learning experience...but I have to at least try.
If you take a look at my current dyno sheet with the 662-2 cams...the Zilla quit making torque at 4500 rpm's with the -2's. I'm hoping with this combo of the 640's with the added compression bump to support them, along with the pipe...it won't stop building torque at 4500 rpm's and carry it on out a little better.
Of course this is all in theory in my head :slap: ...and I wont know the results until it's done and it's put back on the dyno so we can see how it runs out. :wink:
The one Jim K has right now is my test pipe its an ugly one lol but it works. It's almost impossible to make one pipe work for every combo. I just set most ranges at 3800/5000 with different cams at BBDC and went on an average. But one thing for every bend you add it slows the flow of balance and that's where it gets really hard to fix. Making the primary's the same length is easy staggered them is the hard part trying to get them to push air at the same air speed is the trick.
Quote from: John/1 on October 06, 2013, 09:01:12 AM
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on October 05, 2013, 07:35:34 PM
I agree with you, John. Thats why I think the Fang pipe will be very hard to beat for a street driven bike but Im glad to see the OP take the bull by the horns and take a shot at making a better pipe. Im pretty impressed with the information Burns asks for in their questionnaire for building a pipe and from what I've heard, jam65, another poster here, picked up huge gains running a Burns pipe. I do not recall seeing his dyno sheet and If I said it once, Ive said it a thousand times, a dyno sheet only tells 1% of the story and thats at 100% throttle. The other 99 are what is important on the streets. Still looking forward to the results of this pipe and hoping that we can see some sweep test results from it at 25% throttle, 50% throttle, 75% throttle would be really nice as well.
Hi
Maybe drago can tell us how much work and time it took to to develop that exhaust on and off the dyno,I just think there is more to it than Burn's questionnaire.The design of hd motor is different from others.Building a drag pipe for hp is likely cheaper easier to do put the money that you would save into a better cylinder head.Because that is where the power come from.More air maybe a smaller cam with more grunt to move a couch.
Hi
Yes I did make my own pipes there are no other choice for me,custom or none.zippers design a 2 into 2 for that specific motor on a dyno.they said this works.The inside dimension of a 2 and 1/8 is the same size as exhaust port. Push pipe through flange .375 weld there,no gasket just a little of high temp silicone like interference fit,pull real hard 2500 and up fxr 3.55 gearing
I hope that your pipe works out for ya cents.
I to called burns and gave them all info,bought there 2 into 1 reverse cone they said 2" for 15"
And 2 1/8 " for 15" into collector and I went with the zippers set up.
That was 10 years ago
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One more
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Hi
How's your pipe build coming along
slow...but it's coming along. I have the stainless flanges at the welders being tigged up right now with a short starter 3" long piece of tubing coming out of them so I can bolt them to the heads and start mock. I'll trim them back towards the head as needed.
But...1st I have to figure out how I'm going to mount the muffler housing. I'm thinking of taking a piece of 1/8" thick stainless flat bar stock to make a bracket out of that. I will have it welded directly to the muffler and collector so it's super strong...then bolt it to my existing tranny Zilla bracket. That's the best idea I've came up with so far...it will be mostly hidden and should support the housing nicely.
I don't even have the bike on the lift yet...I'm still riding it as much as I can before the weather takes a turn for the worse around here. I'm in no hurry with the exhaust...I'm going to take my time with it and try to do it the best I can. I'll measure three times...and cut once. This stainless tubing is high dollar stuff.
When it goes back on the lift...I'll have a list of things to do already:
1) finish fabbing up the pipe
2) then pull the top end and cam chest apart
3) have the cylinders fit up to the new domed pistons...then put the engine back together
4) install the Baker Heavy Duty throw out bearing
5) do the chain drive conversion
6) install a new rear tire...wore this one out already :wink:
So...when the bike hits the lift...it will be there for awhile.
Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
slow...but it's coming along. I have the stainless flanges at the welders being tigged up right now with a short starter 3" long piece of tubing coming out of them so I can bolt them to the heads and start mock. I'll trim them back towards the head as needed.
But...1st I have to figure out how I'm going to mount the muffler housing. I'm thinking of taking a piece of 1/8" thick stainless flat bar stock to make a bracket out of that. I will have it welded directly to the muffler and collector so it's super strong...then bolt it to my existing tranny Zilla bracket. That's the best idea I've came up with so far...it will be mostly hidden and should support the housing nicely.
I don't even have the bike on the lift yet...I'm still riding it as much as I can before the weather takes a turn for the worse around here. I'm in no hurry with the exhaust...I'm going to take my time with it and try to do it the best I can. I'll measure three times...and cut once. This stainless tubing is high dollar stuff.
When it goes back on the lift...I'll have a list of things to do already:
1) finish fabbing up the pipe
2) then pull the top end and cam chest apart
3) have the cylinders fit up to the new domed pistons...then put the engine back together
4) install the Baker Heavy Duty throw out bearing
5) do the chain drive conversion
6) install a new rear tire...wore this one out already :wink:
So...when the bike hits the lift...it will be there for awhile.
Hi
Good to hear, weather is ok here for now but this time of the year anything is possible.
Use your Zilla hanger and bolt pattern as a template to make a hanger out of stainless.
John...I'm hoping we get a little more nice weather around here in Ohio so I can ride awhile longer. This 124"er is a blast to ride...but I know it will be getting bad here soon enough. The morning rides to work are already down in the lower 40's....but it is still in the 70's on the way home.
Jay...thanks for the idea to copying the Zilla bracket and making one out of stainless. I'll definitely make one. My problem is...where the Zilla bracket is now...it will come out at the head pipes and not the muffler housing or collectors...at least that's what I'm thinking so far from the looks of it. I'll know more once I have the head pipes mocked up.
If that is the case...I'm either going to use where the Zilla hanger is now and make another bracket using the same holes and make it so the bracket extends more toward the rear of the bike and possibly have it catch the collector. If so I'll have a mounting tab welded onto it. I might even try to cut and shape a piece of 1/8" flat stock stainless to follow the muffler housing taper and collector shape...then have it welded on so it will extend forward and hit the Zilla bracket location. I was thinking of starting it about an inch back on the housing and have it run down along the side of the collector tube...with it then extending back to the original Zilla hanger. I'll drill a hole thru the welded on stainless bracket and drop a bolt thru the bracket and hanger.
As you can see...I have been giving it some serious thought...but I can't say anything for sure until I get the head pipes all mocked up and final welded. Then I'll know what option will work out best. I hoping to hide most of the pipes rear mounting from a side view.
mock it up for a 2011 sharknose bracket also.
i think durwood is saving pennys for this 124 er ,for when you build the 145 er :hyst:
lolll ok the exhaust is not for the 145
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 08, 2013, 07:51:50 PM
mock it up for a 2011 sharknose bracket also.
i think durwood is saving pennys for this 124 er ,for when you build the 145 er :hyst:
you just had to go and tell everyone Jim :gob: that was suppose to be kept a secret until it's unvailing :hyst:
Are you going to do back to back testing of your custom pipe vs the boarzilla once on the dyno? I am considering a custom exhaust from burns as well.
For the muffler bkt go at least 3/16, 1/4 would be better, piece it together and weld.
Still waiting for the video of this thing launching or couldn't you find a brave soul!?!
I'll still have to work on that one.
I just got back from the Oregonia Hill Climbs...the Devil's Staircase.
Six of us rode up together...so I ended up turning it loose for them a few times today.
Damn thing is a tire shredding monster. I probably busted a few ear drums today when I blew by them sideways...bouncing it off the rev-limiter.
I never even thought to have one of them crazy nuts film it :doh:
My back tire really has to hate me today :hyst:
Quote from: TA63 on October 13, 2013, 12:02:52 AM
Are you going to do back to back testing of your custom pipe vs the boarzilla once on the dyno? I am considering a custom exhaust from burns as well.
the bike runs great where it's at...so when I get the Burns pipe done...I'll put it on and have Jim re-tune it to see if it does any better than the Zilla...with no other changes.
Hi
What is your rear tire size is it an 18 or 17.What tire size on 09 and up
Thanks John
Quote from: No Cents on October 13, 2013, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: TA63 on October 13, 2013, 12:02:52 AM
Are you going to do back to back testing of your custom pipe vs the boarzilla once on the dyno? I am considering a custom exhaust from burns as well.
the bike runs great where it's at...so when I get the Burns pipe done...I'll put it on and have Jim re-tune it to see if it does any better than the Zilla...with no other changes.
I see. I was under the impression you were changing cams and compression as well. Very much looking forward to your results.
Quote from: John/1 on October 13, 2013, 05:59:04 PM
Hi
What is your rear tire size is it an 18 or 17.What tire size on 09 and up
Thanks John
18" on the rear John
TA63...the plan is to do a bump in compression and possibly different cams in the future...but I can't see pulling apart this engine right now...it runs too good as it sits. Making the Burns exhaust is my main goal right now.
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Quote from: No Cents on October 14, 2013, 02:47:51 AM
Quote from: John/1 on October 13, 2013, 05:59:04 PM
Hi
What is your rear tire size is it an 18 or 17.What tire size on 09 and up
Thanks John
18" on the rear John
TA63...the plan is to do a bump in compression and possibly different cams in the future...but I can't see pulling apart this engine right now...it runs too good as it sits. Making the Burns exhaust is my main goal right now.
Hi
If you have the room for a Shinko 180/55/18,003 stealth go for it you can find them for about $ 150.You will not spin this tire unless you dump clutch hard,also has nice ride and absorbs bumps well.Tire hooks up extremely well,you might need better brakes though cause you won't be spinning and going sideways.Tire is not very good in wet weather from what sport bike riders say,maybe ok on a heavy hd go a little easy in wet weather.
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Better pic[attachimg=1]
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Ray, I think for the price you should have gave one of these a try. They're close to the style of what you're building.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,65081.msg696396.html#msg696396 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,65081.msg696396.html#msg696396)
that pipe is cheap enough in price for sure...but I'm going with a 3 step head pipe 1-7/8 to 2" to 2-1/8" at the collector. That one looks like 2 steps that end up with 2" at the collector.
John,
If you want download this picture and replace yours with it and then a mod can kill my reply.
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John I don't know if I can get a 180/55/18 under my 08 FLHX fender. I planned on doing the chain conversion and then seeing how much room I gained. My current 150/70/18 Metezler is about max with the belt drive. I'm thinking the chain will give me a little more room for a wider tire. I would be happy if I could get a 160/60/18 under it...a 180 would even be better...if it would go. How wide is your 180 tire mounted?
My welder finally had the time today to tig up my flanges and butt weld on a 4" long piece of tubing onto the end one of my 2-1/8" OD 15* bend that I needed done...which will come out of the bottom hole of the collector and go to the front cylinder.
I might be able to get it up on the lift and start mocking it up this weekend.
Quote from: No Cents on October 16, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
John I don't know if I can get a 180/55/18 under my 08 FLHX fender. I planned on doing the chain conversion and then seeing how much room I gained. My current 150/70/18 Metezler is about max with the belt drive. I'm thinking the chain will give me a little more room for a wider tire. I would be happy if I could get a 160/60/18 under it...a 180 would even be better...if it would go. How wide is your 180 tire mounted?
My welder finally had the time today to tig up my flanges and butt weld on a 4" long piece of tubing onto the end one of my 2-1/8" OD 15* bend that I needed done...which will come out of the bottom hole of the collector and go to the front cylinder.
I might be able to get it up on the lift and start mocking it up this weekend.
Hi
I thought you had maybe an 09 and up.I think my rim is 5.75 tire is about 7.5 in.
Get that pipe fab.up I want to see it.
John my back wheel is only a 18 X 4.25. I might be able to get a 160/60/18 under there.
My welder has been very busy lately. He is one of the best welders around these parts...and he is wanting to do some horse trading with me for the use of his talents. He needs fence posts for his 100 acres...and I can get old power poles at work. So I'm probably getting the better end of the deal beings I can get the old poles for free. I did get a quote from another welder in the area that's also pretty good...he said $250.00 to purge it and tig it up. They both do medical and commercial stainless tig welding.
Quote from: No Cents on October 16, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
John my back wheel is only a 18 X 4.25. I might be able to get a 160/60/18 under there.
My welder has been very busy lately. He is one of the best welders around these parts...and he is wanting to do some horse trading with me for the use of his talents. He needs fence posts for his 100 acres...and I can get old power poles at work. So I'm probably getting the better end of the deal beings I can get the old poles for free. I did get a quote from another welder in the area that's also pretty good...he said $250.00 to purge it and tig it up. They both do medical and commercial stainless tig welding.
Simpson and sons do any stainless tig Ray?
Quote from: No Cents on October 16, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
John my back wheel is only a 18 X 4.25. I might be able to get a 160/60/18 under there.
My welder has been very busy lately. He is one of the best welders around these parts...and he is wanting to do some horse trading with me for the use of his talents. He needs fence posts for his 100 acres...and I can get old power poles at work. So I'm probably getting the better end of the deal beings I can get the old poles for free. I did get a quote from another welder in the area that's also pretty good...he said $250.00 to purge it and tig it up. They both do medical and commercial stainless tig welding.
NoCents,
I was not able to get a 160 / 18 on mine. had to use a 150 / 18 and even then I had to use a shim piece to space the belt out correctly.
Quote from: 06roadglide on October 16, 2013, 07:04:46 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 16, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
John my back wheel is only a 18 X 4.25. I might be able to get a 160/60/18 under there.
My welder has been very busy lately. He is one of the best welders around these parts...and he is wanting to do some horse trading with me for the use of his talents. He needs fence posts for his 100 acres...and I can get old power poles at work. So I'm probably getting the better end of the deal beings I can get the old poles for free. I did get a quote from another welder in the area that's also pretty good...he said $250.00 to purge it and tig it up. They both do medical and commercial stainless tig welding.
Simpson and sons do any stainless tig Ray?
Harry...the 150/70/18 was a tight squeeze when I put it on. I had to trim the plastic belt guard to run it. I'll do the chain conversion and see if I can go a 160. I can slip my fat fingers between the fender and tire now...so I might be able to squeeze a 160 in...I'll know once I have the conversion in place. I'll more than likely lose the belt guards when I do the chain.
06/RG...I'm not sure if they do or not. Ray Simpson just lives down the street from me...I never gave him a thought.
If you know some welders in the area...Ricky Walters is who I'm going to use to tig up my exhaust. The other possible guys name is Steve Price. Both of them do stainless tig welding everyday...an they are actually artists at what they do.
The flanges are welded up and I'll pick them up tomorrow. I made a 304 stainless tranny mounting bracket out of 3/16" stainless flat stock that has to be welded together. I also made the hanger bracket that will get welded to the collector out of the same 3/16" stainless.
I will probably put the bike on the lift this week and start the mock up on the bike.
Here is a pic of some of it laid out on the table.
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That's some puuurrrrdy stuff!
I finally got the bike on the lift tonight. The Zilla is off...and I got a bunch mocked up and ready for the welder.
I am very interested can't wait to see keep showing some pics please :pop:
Frank...I have the muffler/collector/mounting bracket all mocked up with the 1st step tubing out of the top collector in place and ready to be welded. Once I have the mounting bracket welded to it...I should be able to bolt it into place tomorrow night...if I do...I'll take a picture of it mounted on the bike for you. Hopefully by this weekend...it might be ready to fire up.
put a sound clip please when done
:up:
will do
here is where I have it right now Frank...as promised. I'll take a few more pictures as I go.
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:up:
here is where I ended up at tonight. Taking a few more pieces to the welder tomorrow.
I taped the two pieces of tubing on the front head pipe that will get butt welded together to give an idea of how it will look.
The top head pipe coming out of the top collector is already welded in place. The bottom head pipe coming out of the collector will be a slip fit...with bolt couplings welded on the collector and one the head pipe itself...so a bolt can pull them together tight.
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That looks Killer!!!!! :up: hope it helps your cause :beer:
Looking great. Can't wait to see the finished product after changing colors and see how it performs. Are you willing to share how much a piece together set up like this costs from burns? Trying to figure out what direction I want to go.
The Burns Stainless exhaust kit including stainless flanges costs me $927.55 to my door including shipping.
Looking good. Are you going to have enough clearance around the floorboard?
Plenty of clearance at the floorboard. This Burns pipe actually measures to be the exact same distance at it's bottom lowest point...as the Zilla was. It tucks up by the cam cover in the same place as the Zilla did also. I think I shot the picture at too high of an angle...so it gave the impression that the pipe hangs lower than it actually is. When I get the front head pipe mocked up...I'll take a picture of it even at ground level with the floorboard back on...and a shot looking down the rear of it.
:up: :up:
Respect the time and effort gone into this project!! Hope the outcome is worth it? You have more money in it than what a Fang or other pipes cost.
Quote from: bulldog on October 25, 2013, 07:02:34 AM
Respect the time and effort gone into this project!! Hope the outcome is worth it? You have more money in it than what a Fang or other pipes cost.
in stainless?
Apparently you haven't price a stainless steel exhaust lately.
Mock up is done. I will take it to the welders and have him tack everything in place and do the final welding.
Here is some pictures of it on the bike.
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one at a little angle.
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and a shot from the back
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Looking GOOD Ray, :up: :pop:
thanks Darren
That is a awesome piece of work you have there! Nice job.
Looking f'ing awesome Ray! I'm jealous!
Gonna have to swing by sometime and hear that beast!
Nice job....
:up:
thanks men!
I really enjoy doing little projects like this. It keeps me out of trouble :hyst:
I guess when it's all welded up...I'll make a little video so everyone can hear what it sounds like.
It will probably be next week sometime...I have to work this weekend.
Ray. nice work.
I don't remember the whole thread. Is this the only mod your going to do so we can see the difference between the 'zilla and Burns pipes?
I like the way that looks! How hard was it to make everything equal length?
Thumper...I'm still not sure. I have a set of custom domed pistons coming...and I have the CR650's and S&S 640's cams sitting there for when I do the compression bump. I'm still debating on when to do the engine work. The thing runs too good right now to be pulling the engine apart.
I admit...it would be interesting to take it to Jim's and see what the difference the pipe makes...without any other mods. But that's a 500 mile round trip that I would have to make twice...plus pay Jim for his work.
That is one thing that I have to decide on...do I want to do the engine mods and make the trip to Jim's one time...or have it tuned again now...then have to do it all over again when I do the mods.
Highliner...They are not equal lengths. The steps coming out of the collector are equal...and the 1st step coming out of the heads are...but the middle steps aren't. I had to make the front head pipe middle step 1-1/4"s longer to make it fit. I tried everything I could...but couldn't get the middle steps the exact same in length.
I used Kirby's (prodrag1320) suggestion on measuring water volume on the 1st and 3rd steps....that worked out great and I got them the same.
Quote from: No Cents on October 25, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
I'm still not sure. I have a set of custom domed pistons coming...and I have the CR650's and S&S 640's cams sitting there for when I do the compression bump. I'm still debating on when to do the engine work. The thing runs too good right now to be pulling the engine apart.
I admit...it would be interesting to take it to Jim's and see what the difference the pipe makes...without any other mods. But that's a 500 mile round trip that I would have to make twice...plus pay Jim for his work.
That is one thing that I have to decide on...do I want to do the engine mods and make the trip to Jim's one time...or have it tuned again now...then have to do it all over again when I do the mods.
I understand. My scoot runs well as is but I am thinking about having Otto put some 30deg domed pistons in and playing around the 12.5 - 13.0:1 neighborhood.
If you're just wanting to compare at 100% throttle Jim could just tune that area and then switch pipes and do the same again. Just a thought to help guys who are just wanting to see a dyno sheet and shouldn't take long to just tune that spot. Something to consider anyway and could give guys reading this a chance to see that difference. I'd imagine Jim wouldn't mind doing that.
Nice!
Thanks to JBV Racing as well...... :up:
Nocents, did JBV supply more than "inspiration" for this pipe? I know of at least six guys that'd order a guppy today and I'd want two. Are there dimensional differences between the No Centser pipe and the Guppy?
Very pretty btw.
Quote from: build it on October 25, 2013, 08:41:44 PM
Nocents, did JBV supply more than "inspiration" for this pipe? I know of at least six guys that'd order a guppy today and I'd want two. Are there dimensional differences between the No Centser pipe and the Guppy?
Very pretty btw.
I was wondering that too being one of the guys waiting to hear back from Brian.
I tried getting ahold of Brian (JBV Racing) numerous times to purchase a Guppy from him...but I never got a reply from the phone messages or e-mails. I was told that Brian was busy nowadays with his karate and family. So I figured if I wanted one...I'd just have to make it.
I was told by wfolarry that Brian used tapered head pipes on the bagger Guppy, and this was as close as I could come to duplicating it using the stepped head pipes.
I did this on my own with no outside help from anyone...using a Burns Stainless kit.
My inspiration did come from the picture pwmorris posted a few years ago. I thought that was the coolest looking pipe I'd ever seen on a bagger before.
my welder did the 1st step off the front flange yesterday. All is left to do is weld around the four slip joints and weld the bolt couplers in place on the bottom collector and front head pipe. I'm taking him the bike tomorrow on the trailer after work so he can tack the last four welds in place. Then I'll pull the pipe off the bike so he can finish it up. He said he will have it done by Tuesday.
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one at an angle
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Yeah, by mentioning JBV I was just referring to the inspiration. Ideas and inspiration can come from many places, and they can be the seeds to great things.
The coolest thing about this is you saw something you wanted, couldn't get it, so you said screw it, I'll make it myself.
That takes dedication and persistence, and even if the end result isn't exactly what you were looking for, it is to be admired for the effort.
Just by the specs alone, I think it's gonna be a nice addition to your total engine package.
:up:
There are going to be a lot of scooters who get to view that rear View you posted and are not going to like :wink: I really like that big pipe look,It has that all Business look if you know what I mean. :up:
Quote from: pwmorris on October 27, 2013, 05:58:34 AM
Yeah, by mentioning JBV I was just referring to the inspiration. Ideas and inspiration can come from many places, and they can be the seeds to great things.
The coolest thing about this is you saw something you wanted, couldn't get it, so you said screw it, I'll make it myself.
That takes dedication and persistence, and even if the end result isn't exactly what you were looking for, it is to be admired for the effort.
Just by the specs alone, I think it's gonna be a nice addition to your total engine package.
:up:
Totally agree.
Are you putting O2 bungs in?
Cents, Nice job!! i'm sure you have a very competent welder to do the job but make sure that he does a gas purge of the inside if the pipe b 4 he starts welding. This will prevent any over penetration from turning into ugly grey dingle berries on the in side of the pipe which could produce obstructions and turbulence and impede the flow.
No O2 bungs...I have some bungs...but I went Strokerjlk's suggestion and did the O2 sensor eliminators instead.
I had my pipes made up with o2 bungs for tuning purposes and run with them plugged. Any opinions on the up or down side of this? One question that I had was how it might adversely effect the pressure wave within the pipe i.e. every edge within the pipe effects the wave.
Quote from: bajabob on October 27, 2013, 07:11:06 AM
Cents, Nice job!! i'm sure you have a very competent welder to do the job but make sure that he does a gas purge of the inside if the pipe b 4 he starts welding. This will prevent any over penetration from turning into ugly grey dingle berries on the in side of the pipe which could produce obstructions and turbulence and impede the flow.
I'll make sure he purges it when he does the 4 final welds. On the 1st steps that got welded to the flanges...I was able to use a 6" long carbide grinder bit I purchased inside them...and I was able to contour the radius bend smooth inside them...removing all the dingle berries. I also used the bit inside the 2" OD tubing that had to be butt welded together.
All 3 pieces turned out nice inside them. They should have no restrictions in them and flow smoothly.
:up: Thanks for the heads up on purging them...that was the plan.
A purge will keep the stainless from " Sugaring" or burning the properties of the stainless out of it resulting in expensive carbon steel and early failure. A real TIG welder wont have "dingle berries" inside that's a sign of excessive penetration and poor weld techniques. A butt weld should have a root proud no more than 1/16" of the inside. A seal weld on a slip joint should have nothing inside the pipe. Bob
The pipe is done. I installed it and called my buddy Randy to stop over and hear it fired up for the 1st time.
WOW...is all I can say. It sounds like a big block 454 engine :bike:
It idled perfect and rev's instantly still...but with a whole different attitude. It has a very very deep sound to it.
I'll try to make a video of it tomorrow.
:up:
:up:
Nice pipe. If you compare fuel trims wot, it should give you an idea to compare the two torque curves.
Is that the baffled megaphone? I had the non baffled and it was ridiculously loud.
it's baffled Merc
We have over 15,000 members here, give use a total price to drive down to Jim's and have him dyno the the new pipe so we can see the difference it makes. I'd pay my share.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 29, 2013, 04:42:55 AM
We have over 15,000 members here, give use a total price to drive down to Jim's and have him dyno the the new pipe so we can see the difference it makes. I'd pay my share.
I'm in :up:
Jim would have to answer that one. My fuel cost for one round trip is about $150.00
If we can get a decent amount of guys to participate, I'm on board $
Jim and I did this several years ago, and tested 3 different pipes on my Fatboy when it was a 95"er, some guys on V-twin sent money to cover all the dyno and labor time, to see the results, it worked out quite well and was a load of fun.
Some guys gave $10 and some gave $20, Ed,"Turbo prop" supplied the Thunder header, I had the RB Prostock and Jim supplied the Fatcat .
BTW, After this test was complete I bought the Fatcat.... :potstir:
Ray
I will work with you , whatever you decide . :beer:
Sounds more than fair to me, Jim. I know how much these dynos cost and it isnt just the initial cost. Its the electricity, the extra fans, the new straps every once in a while, new computers, software updates, cables, internet services, the maintenance on bearings and the cost to advertise and need I say more? I'll lay down $20 for the cause. Who do I send it to? Paypal would be my preference.
as promised...here is a video of the pipe. The director of this video is Randy Rich Kid...aka groundhawg124 :hyst:
http://youtu.be/Dedh2D0TPWg (http://youtu.be/Dedh2D0TPWg)
That bike sounds awesome, excellent job!!! Seems the hard work was well worth it!! :up: :up:
yeah nice job sound great too
:agree:
im up too for the dyno let know what u decide
I have $30.00 to put into the pot ,if you take it back up to jims with the cycle rama cams and new pistons installed and maybe just maybe you can rest easy :hyst:
Quote from: groundhawg124 on October 29, 2013, 03:42:37 PM
I have $30.00 to put into the pot ,if you take it back up to jims with the cycle rama cams and new pistons installed and maybe just maybe you can rest easy :hyst:
hey director...that little laugh you have at the end of the video is hilarious :hyst:
i say set up a pot and see how many will donate? i would give 20bucks for the cause.
:scoot: Travis
There is no cheaper way to find out how good this pipe is on a big motor than to pitch in and pay for this bike to get on the dyno. The bike has a ton of data on Jim's dyno with the other pipe and cams so getting some runs with just the pipe change will give a good comparison. We need a few more of the people following this thread to step up. At this posting there have been 30,000 views on this project, hell you pay more per day for your cable TV and your not watching it because there is nothing worth watching that is why you're in the internet.
Ray as usual the work looks and sounds great.
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
so...what did it do Jay? :potstir:
Good job Ray,looks real good :up:
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
Great the more data the better.
Post the before and after runs on a single graph made with the same motor on the same dyno so we can all see.
If I remember correctly, Ray wanted an improvement over the entire RPM range. I wanted a gain within a couple K on the top end. It won't be a fair comparison between the two but I'm hoping the end result will be a positive one.
I would not want to compare the two bikes.
The real info is in seeing how the burns pipe helps each individual bike to gain over the previous pipe in the range the customer asked for.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 29, 2013, 04:42:55 AM
We have over 15,000 members here, give use a total price to drive down to Jim's and have him dyno the the new pipe so we can see the difference it makes. I'd pay my share.
I as well.
Quote from: TA63 on October 29, 2013, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 29, 2013, 04:42:55 AM
We have over 15,000 members here, give use a total price to drive down to Jim's and have him dyno the the new pipe so we can see the difference it makes. I'd pay my share.
I'm in for $20 as well.
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
Quote from: No Cents on October 29, 2013, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
so...what did it do Jay? :potstir:
Good / Bad ? what did it do? x 2
Quote from: No Cents on October 29, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
Quote from: groundhawg124 on October 29, 2013, 03:42:37 PM
I have $30.00 to put into the pot ,if you take it back up to jims with the cycle rama cams and new pistons installed and maybe just maybe you can rest easy :hyst:
hey director...that little laugh you have at the end of the video is hilarious :hyst:
There had to be alcohol involved , in that production clip :soda:
Sounds like it is tuned already Ray :scoot:
Nice work as usual :beer:
the bike seems to like this pipe better than the Zilla.
I dont know really how to say it other than it seems to be able to exhale better with less restriction. It feels like it hits the rev limiter quicker. This is the strongest the bike has felt to date.
I put it on the rev limiter leaving Randy's after he got done shooting the video...and I can honestly say for sure...it didn't lose anything :wink:
Quote from: Unbalanced on October 30, 2013, 04:28:28 AM
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
Quote from: No Cents on October 29, 2013, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: jam65 on October 29, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
I have already paid to see what a Burns pipe can do. Sorry guys.
so...what did it do Jay? :potstir:
Good / Bad ? what did it do? x 2
All good here. I picked up 18 hp over the Zilla for a Dyna.
:up: that's excellent Jay!
I can feel an improvement in my engine with the Burns pipe...how much :nix:
My butt dyno says it picked up though :hyst:
men... :up: thanks for the gesture of taking the bike to Jim's to see what difference the pipe made...but I think the next trip to Jim's will be with a little compression bump and different cams.
The pipe is performing better than my expectations of it. :wink:
Ray this probably been discussed before but was it possible to bring the muffler to the end of the bags?
I'm sure it could be done.
My goal was to duplicate the bagger Guppy pipe as close as possible.
I had to run some errands today and it was 50* outside...so I figured I'd take the bike and give my review of how the pipe does. I had only put around 15 miles on it since it was completed...been raining and I've had to work some OT because of the storms.
I put around 75 miles on it today and the bike actually ran flawlessly.
With the Zilla...I could roll out in 1st gear...pull the clutch in and rev it to 4K and dump it...it would instantly start melting the tire staying fairly straight and bounce off the rev limiter.
Now with this Burns pipe...doing the same exact roll on, and dumping the clutch @ 4K...it instantly jumps straight sideways...and is on the rev limiter instantly. If I continue on the limiter and hit 2nd gear...it wants to throw me off the back. I gotta being hanging on to it for dear life now! It's a totally different program with this pipe.
I can not believe a pipe can make this kind of difference.
I'm totally elated with the performance of it. :smilep:
Here is a picture of it...the pipe is starting to patina nicely.
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:up: :up: :up:
Thats a dam sexy pipe there. Glad to hear your happy with it.
Don't know how I missed the video post, pipe sounds great Ray. But who is that guy in the video? :hyst:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:28:01 PM
Don't know how I missed the video post, pipe sounds great Ray. But who is that guy in the video? :hyst:
some over paid actor :hyst:
:up:
thanks Dan...I really like it.
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrap yard anytime soon. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrape yard anytime soon. :wink:
Just remember Ray, I can be there in about 45 minutes.... :smile:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrape yard anytime soon. :wink:
Just remember Ray, I can be there in about 45 minutes.... :smile:
Hey, didn't you get his last cast offs?
Ray, what tools did you need to do the mock up?
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrape yard anytime soon. :wink:
Just remember Ray, I can be there in about 45 minutes.... :smile:
Hey, didn't you get his last cast offs?
I'm a repeat customer.... :smiled:
I used a radiator clamp snugged up around the tubing to be able to get straight lines around the tubing. I used a Sharpie marker to trace around the clamp. I always cut the pieces a little long at 1st...that Burns stainless ain't cheap. I put the tubing in my vise with card board on the jaws to make sure I didn't mar up the tubing. I took my time..and cut the tubing with a good old hacksaw. I would then use my bench grinder to remove any other needed material from the tubing. I'd trial fit it...mark it...then grind some more until I got it to fit perfect. Once I had a piece of tubing to the proper length...I'd use a round chain saw file to make the inside lip of the tubing smooth and make sure I removed any burrs.
I used a drill to drill a hole in the tranny bracket I made out of 3/16" stainless flat stock and thru the mounting bracket welded to the collector. I always had a small level handy...just to check it along the way.
That's about it for tools...pretty basic stuff.
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 07:03:35 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrape yard anytime soon. :wink:
Just remember Ray, I can be there in about 45 minutes.... :smile:
Hey, didn't you get his last cast offs?
I'm a repeat customer.... :smiled:
Brian...my welder was so impressed with the pipe...he wants me to go in partners with him and make a few of them and see if they will sell.
I told him...there is no market for them and we would be wasting our time :embarrassed:
Did you tack weld them while they were on the scoot? If not how did you hold the shape to do the welding?
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 07:31:50 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 07:03:35 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: HighLiner on November 02, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
If it ends up not working for you I'll give you scrap metal prices for it...LoL
:emoGroan: :hyst:
it's a strictly all business pipe...the absolute best pipe I've ever owned...without a doubt.
It wont be seeing the scrape yard anytime soon. :wink:
Just remember Ray, I can be there in about 45 minutes.... :smile:
Hey, didn't you get his last cast offs?
I'm a repeat customer.... :smiled:
Brian...my welder was so impressed with the pipe...he wants me to go in partners with him and make a few of them and see if they will sell.
I told him...there is no market for them and we would be wasting our time :embarrassed:
:scoot: Well OK then, if you need another test bike, I guess I'll volunteer! :wink:
Thumper...I took two pieces of short tubing and had the welder tig the flanges on. I got the muffler/collector where I wanted it to be and fabbed up the tranny bracket and made the muffler mount to be tigged on the collector. Once the mount was tigged to the muffler/collector and the tranny backet welded together...I then mounted the tranny bracket and the muffler/collector to it in place. Then I mocked up everything in between. Once it was all mocked up...I loaded the bike on the trailer and I dragged it to the welders shop. He tacked the final welds in place on the bike while it was sitting on the trailer. I removed the pipe. Two hours later...he was done welding. I trailered it home and put the pipe on. It fit perfect.
Here is a picture of what I started with off the exhaust ports.
added later...I guess I should of said also that once I had the muffler/collector mounted to the tranny bracket....I marked the 1st step and flanges with a line across them...then took the flanges with the 1st step off the heads to the welder and had him tig them together. I then was able to get inside the tubing with a carbide grinder bit and smooth that butt weld out like a babies bottom. The 2nd and 3rd steps were slip joints...approx. 1/8" inside each other. Those were the ones tacked in place on the bike for the final welds.
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Quote from: Ohio HD on November 02, 2013, 06:28:01 PM
Don't know how I missed the video post, pipe sounds great Ray. But who is that guy in the video? :hyst:
Brian...you'll have to stop over and hear this pipe in person. My friend Randy shot the video from my cell phone...and it really doesn't do it any justice.
It's a pretty radical sounding pipe...with a very deep tone to it.
When I rolled it thru town today in 3rd gear @ around 2K...it sounded like a top fuel dragster sitting on the line with the cams a thumpin :teeth:
After my little ride on the bike Saturday...I've decided to not do the compression bump and change the cams this winter. This Burns pipe has made that big of a difference in how the bike performs. I do have a set of domed pistons coming that I will sit on the shelf for a rainy day. I don't have the heart to pull this engine apart the way it runs...especially now with this pipe on it.
I'll more than likely end up taking it back to Strokerjlk's and have him re-tune it with this pipe...with no other changes.
It will be nice to see the apples to apples comparison.
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2013, 04:27:37 PM
:up: that's excellent Jay!
I can feel an improvement in my engine with the Burns pipe...how much :nix:
My butt dyno says it picked up though :hyst:
men... :up: thanks for the gesture of taking the bike to Jim's to see what difference the pipe made...but I think the next trip to Jim's will be with a little compression bump and different cams.
The pipe is performing better than my expectations of it. :wink:
Just wondering what you expect the HP gain will be from the compression and cams?
Ray if the bike "performs" better with the new pipe without having it tuned yet, it should go real nice after you get it re-tuned. :up:
excactly my thoughts Wes. With the Zilla...it flatlined and the tq was done @ 4300 rpm's. I think this pipe will do a little better. It sure feels stronger...but that is by the seat of the pants with no hard proof to back it up. Jim will have to show the difference when he spins it on the drum.
1FSTRK...I didn't know what to expect if I bumped the compression up with different cams. That would of been uncharted waters for me. Right now...it is the strongest this bike has ever felt the way it sits. I'm sure after Jim does his thing to it...it will run even better.
for Me 11:1 with the 662-2 cams proved to be a good combo. how much more compression were you thinking about adding?
The pistons I have coming are +4cc domed.
It would put me @ 11.86:1 static compression. I would need to change the 662-2's out with the extra compression to keep the ccp's down to an acceptable level. I have the S&S 640 & the CR 650's to decide on when I do.
I'll just save them for some rainy day when the top end needs a freshening up.
Quote from: No Cents on November 04, 2013, 03:42:50 AM
After my little ride on the bike Saturday...I've decided to not do the compression bump and change the cams this winter. This Burns pipe has made that big of a difference in how the bike performs. I do have a set of domed pistons coming that I will sit on the shelf for a rainy day. I don't have the heart to pull this engine apart the way it runs...especially now with this pipe on it.
I'll more than likely end up taking it back to Strokerjlk's and have him re-tune it with this pipe...with no other changes.
It will be nice to see the apples to apples comparison.
Glad to hear this Ray. We're all hoping you would go this route.
I'm still wanting to get mine up to Jim as well. It's in bad need of a good tune.
Quote from: 06roadglide on November 04, 2013, 08:13:49 AM
Quote from: No Cents on November 04, 2013, 03:42:50 AM
After my little ride on the bike Saturday...I've decided to not do the compression bump and change the cams this winter. This Burns pipe has made that big of a difference in how the bike performs. I do have a set of domed pistons coming that I will sit on the shelf for a rainy day. I don't have the heart to pull this engine apart the way it runs...especially now with this pipe on it.
I'll more than likely end up taking it back to Strokerjlk's and have him re-tune it with this pipe...with no other changes.
It will be nice to see the apples to apples comparison.
Glad to hear this Ray. We're all hoping you would go this route.
I'm still wanting to get mine up to Jim as well. It's in bad need of a good tune.
+1. Really looking forward to seeing the results
I think I finally came to my senses :slap:
wfolarry told me that I should consider the compression bump very carefully before doing it. Larry said that if I was shooting for the big dyno #'s and hit my target...that the bike would no longer be any fun to ride on the street. He's probably right again...as usual...Larry is a pretty smart man.
I rode the bike into work this morning...a little chilly out @ 39*...but the ride home will be worth it. The bike has that cocked and loaded feeling back again everywhere with this pipe. I go about 8 miles on the interstate to the off ramp to the shop I work out of. I looked down at the speedo...and I was going 85 mph this morning :doh:. I thought I was only running about 70. I can usually tell by the tone of the engine about how fast I'm running within 5 mph or so. For some reason this pipe seems to have released some untapped power in all the rpm ranges...with less strain on the engine...or at least it feels that way by the seat of the pants.
I'm kind of excited to see what difference it makes on Jim's dyno.
Ray, I think that you and Larry are correct, there come a point where it's not really a cruising bike anymore, rather a drag bike ridden on the street. And that's OK if it's what someone wants. I ride too much to ride a high strung bike, I've ridden 5,000 miles on the 117 since I got it from you. As it is, it's fun to ride, add more compression, hotter cams, maybe not so much fun for me. I have no plans to up the ante on it.
:agree: with you Brian.
It's kind of sitting on that edge right now...but still very streetable.
It's all I need for a bike ridden on the street.
If I pushed the compression much higher on it...I think it would become a bike strictly for the strip, and no fun on the street.
It sure is a blast to ride right now :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on November 04, 2013, 09:04:45 AM
I think I finally came to my senses :slap:
wfolarry told me that I should consider the compression bump very carefully before doing it. Larry said that if I was shooting for the big dyno #'s and hit my target...that the bike would no longer be any fun to ride on the street. He's probably right again...as usual...Larry is a pretty smart man.
:agree: Larry won't steer ya wrong.... You see what TXCHOP did, he built the baddest 117 the forums ever saw, then parted it out in lieu of a 124 crate motor so he could enjoy riding again...
Personally Ray, I'd put that Duracell on the strip, there are a couple of bikes in the AMRA Dresser class that could use a spankin' :potstir: :koolaid:
Dang nabit Darren...you take the keys to the tool box from me...then you want me to go ahead as originally planned and make it a serious racer. :hyst:
I'm so confused now. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on November 04, 2013, 03:42:50 AM
After my little ride on the bike Saturday...I've decided to not do the compression bump and change the cams this winter. This Burns pipe has made that big of a difference in how the bike performs. I do have a set of domed pistons coming that I will sit on the shelf for a rainy day. I don't have the heart to pull this engine apart the way it runs...especially now with this pipe on it.
I'll more than likely end up taking it back to Strokerjlk's and have him re-tune it with this pipe...with no other changes.
It will be nice to see the apples to apples comparison.
Now you're talking.
In my humble opinion this was the best post in the entire 38 pages of this thread.
I agree, you gotta appreciate a guy that is willing to go the extra mile to build a real nice runner but is also reasonable enough to know when to say when and not get completely ridiculous and end up building something that is almost no longer functional. I think its still fair to say Ray is 8 up but hey, as my old man used to say, "building hot rods is good clean fun, theres a lot worse things men can have as a vice."
that's exactly what Larry told me Darren.
He said if I posted up the big dyno #'s...I would still have to live with the bikes end results afterwards.
Larry said a lot of guys have went down this road before for the big numbers and found out afterwards that the bike wasn't even streetable anymore. They end up selling it...or parting it out once they got done pounding their chest.
I know I'm 8-up...just not crazy.
I would like to keep riding this bike for a little while longer on the street...before maybe someday making it a serious toy to run on the strip.
Quote from: No Cents on November 04, 2013, 12:18:54 PM
that's exactly what Larry told me Darren.
He said if I posted up the big dyno #'s...I would still have to live with the bikes end results afterwards.
Larry said a lot of guys have went down this road before for the big numbers and found out afterwards that the bike wasn't even streetable anymore. They end up selling it...or parting it out once they got done pounding their chest.
I know I'm 8-up...just not crazy.
I would like to keep riding this bike for a little while longer on the street...before maybe someday making it a serious toy to run on the strip.
Smart move-
As you know I have had some huge HP street bike motors, and the more I pushed them, the more issues popped up. Leaks, more heat and more heat soak, fuel restrictions, wear on parts and breaking parts, NOISE, harder re-starts, and on and on.
There comes a time to stop and remember you need a reliable, every day driver that can go everywhere, anytime on any fuel available-not a drag bike or dyno shootout queen. A bike you can count on to make it home and not wake the dead when riding around town.
After I got the big RELIABLE HP, I worked on other areas of the street bike to improve performance, and focused on the total package-which is key.
That said, I would still like to see what your bike runs at the track for fun-should be a solid 11 second bike all day...
Leave it alone :slap: he is very smart with that statement ask me I'll tell you :doh: Do not go chasing the numbers or you will buying another bike?
Mike you and Paul are right. I'm just going to do the chain conversion to it and take it to Jim's and have him do a re-tune to it...then this winter my focus will be improving the stock suspension...then I'll just ride it like it is for awhile.
I'll probably sell the low rider sometime next year and find another bagger to ride on the street. Then I can concentrate on this engine a little more for the strip.
That is a very good call my opinion only. :up:
:up: It sure is interesting when guys like yourself Ray take the bull by the horn and go for it. Will get back to you in the near future about the pipe!!
Quote from: No Cents on November 02, 2013, 05:02:27 PM
I had to run some errands today and it was 50* outside...so I figured I'd take the bike and give my review of how the pipe does. I had only put around 15 miles on it since it was completed...been raining and I've had to work some OT because of the storms.
I put around 75 miles on it today and the bike actually ran flawlessly.
With the Zilla...I could roll out in 1st gear...pull the clutch in and rev it to 4K and dump it...it would instantly start melting the tire staying fairly straight and bounce off the rev limiter.
Now with this Burns pipe...doing the same exact roll on, and dumping the clutch @ 4K...it instantly jumps straight sideways...and is on the rev limiter instantly. If I continue on the limiter and hit 2nd gear...it wants to throw me off the back. I gotta being hanging on to it for dear life now! It's a totally different program with this pipe.
I can not believe a pipe can make this kind of difference.
I'm totally elated with the performance of it. :smilep:
Here is a picture of it...the pipe is starting to patina nicely.
[attach=0]
Where do you have your rev limiter set to?
Thumper...Jim has it set @ 6300 rpm...and that's plenty high enough for the street with this engine. I don't want to hurt it.
From 4K to the limiter...it gets there in the blink of an eye.
To keep from going off the back between gears,Take you right foot and hook it under the rear brake pedal just hope like hell you don't have to use it,That seems to work for me!Ane once you are not to afraid to keep twisting and shifting look the #%€£ out it.When it hooks up your Gonads will be in back of you! :hyst:
:dgust:
I know :hyst:
Kind of a great feeling isn't it,Scary but great? :hyst:
it will get the old heart a pumpin...for sure! :wink:
The rush gets better when you push your comfort limits just a little bit. But there is a fine line to cross at some point. Being tense is a Big "no no". Some say that you have to read what the machine is telling you and then you have to move as one.
Quote from: jam65 on November 05, 2013, 07:31:39 PM
The rush gets better when you push your comfort limits just a little bit. But there is a fine line to cross at some point. Being tense is a Big "no no". Some say that you have to read what the machine is telling you and then you have to move as one.
:up:
I'm getting ready to finally do the chain conversion this weekend. I will put it up on the lift and pull it apart. I have a few thousand miles on the CompensaVer...and I'll see how it's looking when I pull it apart.
I put a set of 13" HD air shocks on it yesterday. I found another 12" shock broke off at the lower mount again when installing the 13" shocks. The 13" shocks made a huge improvement on the ride quality on the bike...and no more bottoming out.
This is the best and smoothest ride the bike has had since I bought it new in 2008.
I'll post some pictures of the chain conversion and CompensaVer as I go.
A good Susp is a must I my self went with the Progressive set up front and back really tight,Also did the swing arm bushings and Bitchen bagger brace with the Baker oil pan,And don't for get about brakes Full FLoaters with Lydall pads,Alot more to it than a big high torque/horsepower build Alot of guys don't think about the other stuff,It goes fast it needs to handle and stop fast! :wink:
:agree:
I've got the Lyndall Gold pads and a bagger brace on it already. The suspension needed addressed for sure...and it's making head way. The 13" rear shocks were a HUGE improvement over the 12".
Now the chain conversion is up to deck...and a Strokerjlk tune after that.
I tried the air ride deal but looked great in the parking lot not so good any ware else,It's on the self with the rest of my €£># ups,That's life right?Good luck with the chain Conv.And that tune,I myself am looking to down sizing Yea Right. :hyst:
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on November 07, 2013, 04:44:40 PM
I tried the air ride deal but looked great in the parking lot not so good any ware else,It's on the self with the rest of my €£># ups,That's life right?Good luck with the chain Conv.And that tune,I myself am looking to down sizing Yea Right. :hyst:
pm sent
I think you should hold off on installing the chain sprockets. I think the added weight of the sprocket and chain will hinder some power to the ground and the result won't be an "apples to apples" comparison between the pipes.
I probably will. I'm still on the fence on which brand tire to buy for the rear when I do the chain conversion. I do need a new rear tire...most of the tread has seemed to disappear for some reason :hyst:
Yesterday I ordered a sprocket locking nut that 3 Guyz sell for a conversion. It's suppose to take the movement/flexing out...that the factory set up allows.
I don't know if a chain conversion would change anything as far as results of a dyno tune...maybe Jim can chime in on that one.
But I'll go ahead and hold off on the chain conversion, and give it to Jim with only the pipe change...that way it will be exactly the same and an "apples to apples" comparison...as he tuned it with the Zilla on it.
Ray are you guys going to test the fang pipe as well?
You did an awesome job mocking up and finishing that pipe. Did you make a jig or just one off it?
Look forward to hearing how you make out.
no we didn't make a jig...this is a one off pipe. We thought about it afterwards :doh:
Seems a lot of people are very interested in my Burns pipe...I've received many pm's on it...and they are wanting to know if I'm going to make more of them.
I don't have a Fang to compare it to...maybe Frank would be willing to send one to Jim's for a comparison...if Jim even wanted to mess with it.
If they wanted to use my bike for an experiment while Jim has it...that would be fine by me. Frank and Jim would have to get together and make that decision.
Quote from: No Cents on November 09, 2013, 10:02:59 AM
no we didn't make a jig...this is a one off pipe. We thought about it afterwards :doh:
Seems a lot of people are very interested in my Burns pipe...I've received many pm's on it...and they are wanting to know if I'm going to make more of them.
I don't have a Fang to compare it to...maybe Frank would be willing to send one to Jim's for a comparison...if Jim even wanted to mess with it.
If they wanted to use my bike for an experiment while Jim has it...that would be fine by me. Frank and Jim would have to get together and make that decision.
I did have the fang test pipe here but I dropped the fang in the mail yesterday.
not interested in doing any testing (got nitrous testing for myself and three motors to build),
you have a work of art that you made with your own two hands :beer: lets concentrate on that.
you also have a zilla that worked great. no need for another pipe.
yep :agree:
this will give a good "apples to apples" comparison between the barn built No Centster pipe :doh: ...and the famous Zilla. :hyst:
damn Jim...3 engines to build and nitrous testing...where do you find the time.
and I thought I was 8-up :wink:
you better watch out...Durwood will come over and take your tool box keys when your not lookin :unsure:
the plan is to take the bike to Jim's on Saturday the 23rd and drop it off for a re-tune.
This is with "only" the pipe change being done to it for an "apple to apple" comparison vs the Zilla...as a lot of you men mentioned you wanted to see.
I hope I don't end up with mud on my face :dgust:
Dyno donations are accepted :hyst:
Ray,
It ain't mud so Don't stand behind it the rubber coming off at with that kind of power would will definitely hurt. Yeah I know It's the cart before the horse, but as an option depending on your results maybe you could talk frank into testing the Fang for free since he and a lot of people were also interested.
I am hopeful you hit a home run with the "RayNoCentsGuppy" cause if looks and effort count you've already won.
Good luck on the Dyno
:up:
thanks Harry
Quote from: No Cents on November 09, 2013, 05:49:46 AM
I probably will. I'm still on the fence on which brand tire to buy for the rear when I do the chain conversion. I do need a new rear tire...most of the tread has seemed to disappear for some reason :hyst:
Yesterday I ordered a sprocket locking nut that 3 Guyz sell for a conversion. It's suppose to take the movement/flexing out...that the factory set up allows.
I don't know if a chain conversion would change anything as far as results of a dyno tune...maybe Jim can chime in on that one.
But I'll go ahead and hold off on the chain conversion, and give it to Jim with only the pipe change...that way it will be exactly the same and an "apples to apples" comparison...as he tuned it with the Zilla on it.
I think you'd really like the ME880 Radial. It's lighter, rides smoother, larger contact patch as a result of it being more forgiving, made in Germany vs the Brazil bias tires.
I have a 160/60 R18 on a 4.25" rim and it measures 6.25" at its widest point. My belt has about a 1/4" clearance at the tire but I also dumped the belt guard when I went with a 2-1 pipe.
Here's the tire Ray.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Dyno donation what email address for paypal payment
Quote from: fidel on November 10, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
Dyno donation what email address for paypal payment
:up:
thanks for the offer for the donation...I was joking!
I'll pay for the tune out of pocket myself.
It will be nice to know if my Burns pipe actually is performing better than my Zilla did.
:nix: my butt could be lying :hyst:
Jim,
You asked me awhile back if you could keep the pipe to test with?
I asked you for who.. You said possible Ray's bike I said no problem, please keep and use it.
I understand the part of you are busy, but after the fact that you took the Fang muffler and rigged it to work on the Zilla, I would think having the Fang there to try would be a + for Ray the customer. Even if the results are off the charts, since he is willing it will give everyone some comparisons with like data.
Please note I even offered to come down and help/do the labor necessary to change the pipes, as well as help pay for yours and the dyno time to run the fang which would be better at your place to keep everything consistent with the same dyno, operator and bike other than exhaust.
Since trying to get a hold of you in regards to this I have received no response from you, except that you have now all of sudden shipped my pipe back and I read the previous posts:
My reason for asking this>>>>
First I would love to see how the pipe does on a big build other than blower, I would like to see how it compares to the Rigged Zilla as well since it helped the Zilla pick up a few more ponies. Ray asked me in PM and told me about this. You and I have talked about this.
Again I understand the busy side and time. I would love to help and lend a hand and even help pay for some of the labor and tune if needed.
Just so people understand we as well as the general public who do builds like this look for this type of data all the time and for me I have a vested interest in seeing how the Fang performs. If you have a change of heart and it is something you are still willing to do I would bring the pipe back down with me.
If you're not willing to indulge this testing and inconvenience, I understand, and in that case the offer to Ray is to come on over and I will test it at my place at no cost to him.
Thanks Jim please send me the Tracking Information for the pipe if in a Pm or text.
FD
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 09, 2013, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 09, 2013, 10:02:59 AM
no we didn't make a jig...this is a one off pipe. We thought about it afterwards :doh:
Seems a lot of people are very interested in my Burns pipe...I've received many pm's on it...and they are wanting to know if I'm going to make more of them.
I don't have a Fang to compare it to...maybe Frank would be willing to send one to Jim's for a comparison...if Jim even wanted to mess with it.
If they wanted to use my bike for an experiment while Jim has it...that would be fine by me. Frank and Jim would have to get together and make that decision.
I did have the fang test pipe here but I dropped the fang in the mail yesterday.
not interested in doing any testing (got nitrous testing for myself and three motors to build),
you have a work of art that you made with your own two hands :beer: lets concentrate on that.
you also have a zilla that worked great. no need for another pipe.
:up:
thanks for the offer Frank.
I will be happy just seeing what my bike does with this pipe on it I made...who knows...it might be a huge flop and could possibly be a waste of your's and Jim's time involving the Fang into the mix. :embarrassed:
Let's just wait and see how it does first. If it does out perform the Zilla...then maybe we can get together for some testing later on.
No problem and good luck with it I hope it gives you what you are looking for. You did a very nice job on it.
Keep us posted
Thanks,
FD
Quote from: No Cents on November 10, 2013, 03:03:18 PM
:up:
thanks for the offer Frank.
I will be happy just seeing what my bike does with this pipe on it I made...who knows...it might be a huge flop and could possibly be a waste of your's and Jim's time involving the Fang into the mix. :embarrassed:
Let's just wait and see how it does first. If it does out perform the Zilla...then maybe we can get together for some testing later on.
Thanks.
will do Frank
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 29, 2013, 12:52:13 PM
Ray
I will work with you , whatever you decide . :beer:
remember this post ?
i was asked to edit it . (no big deal I didn't mind that).
the reason i was asked to edit it is what I have a problem with. (sudden rash of complaints about me posting my price to tune and re-tune ) taking business away from vendors. :wtf:
i will have no part of any of this now. and could really care less ,seeing how all this came about .
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 10, 2013, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 29, 2013, 12:52:13 PM
Ray
I will work with you , whatever you decide . :beer:
remember this post ?
i was asked to edit it . (no big deal I didn't mind that).
the reason i was asked to edit it is what I have a problem with. (sudden rash of complaints about me posting my price to tune and re-tune ) taking business away from vendors. :wtf:
i will have no part of any of this now. and could really care less ,seeing how all this came about .
Jim,
For all you do here, the forum should be sponsoring you.
Love & Respect.
TP
Quote from: turboprop on November 10, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 10, 2013, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 29, 2013, 12:52:13 PM
Ray
I will work with you , whatever you decide . :beer:
remember this post ?
i was asked to edit it . (no big deal I didn't mind that).
the reason i was asked to edit it is what I have a problem with. (sudden rash of complaints about me posting my price to tune and re-tune ) taking business away from vendors. :wtf:
i will have no part of any of this now. and could really care less ,seeing how all this came about .
Jim,
For all you do here, the forum should be sponsoring you.
Love & Respect.
TP
:agree:
Jim is the man...and can for sure...tune 'em up!
and he ain't a half bad drag racer too :hyst:
While I can see and understand the frustration especially when directly asked what u could and would do for the tuning and testing, you answered as requested wouldn't expect you not with the many inquiries about it. Many of us would like to see the end data, but it's sad that the innocent guy here Ray is the only one put out. I sure hope in the background that this was just venting and a good guy isn't being penalized for forum etiquette.
Hope this works out for you Ray
Very few have supported this forum the way stroker has, technically speaking.
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 10, 2013, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 29, 2013, 12:52:13 PM
Ray
I will work with you , whatever you decide . :beer:
remember this post ?
i was asked to edit it . (no big deal I didn't mind that).
the reason i was asked to edit it is what I have a problem with. (sudden rash of complaints about me posting my price to tune and re-tune ) taking business away from vendors. :wtf:
i will have no part of any of this now. and could really care less ,seeing how all this came about .
Same thing happened to me about a week ago in a different thread. I was just showing a price difference but some took it as advertising. Not a big deal. I understand there are vendors that pay to advertise and there are certain rules that go along with it. Just relay the info through Ray and let him post it.
Quote from: Unbalanced on November 12, 2013, 10:36:40 AM
While I can see and understand the frustration especially when directly asked what u could and would do for the tuning and testing, you answered as requested wouldn't expect you not with the many inquiries about it. Many of us would like to see the end data, but it's sad that the innocent guy here Ray is the only one put out. I sure hope in the background that this was just venting and a good guy isn't being penalized for forum etiquette.
Hope this works out for you Ray
How is ray put out ? He will get to see a apples to apples comparison. Between the zilla and the no cents/ burns/ guppy pipe That he built. It wasn't his idea to test the fang . I saw you pushing that not ray .
Jim,
It seemed like you were not going to do any of the work from what you posted.
Quotei will have no part of any of this now. and could really care less ,seeing how all this came about .
If you don't test the fang so be it, would have been nice to see the results, but that's it. Typically you have gone out of the way to test many of pipes as a direct comparison. I was more concerned that what I quoted was that Ray was now SOL and I hated to see that for him was my only concern there. If you are still doing the work than all is good it just didn't seem that way from the message you wrote.
Don't worry about things that don't concern you .
Ray will do just fine without you as his mouth piece
I offered to put in for the testing of the pipe but I agree that I thought it was Harry that wanted to see that mostly and Frank as well but testing requires a lot of time and patience and its not as simple as changing the pipe and doing a pull to get a completely fair, all things as equal as possible comparison. Each piece needs to be tuned to its best potential and if you want to see more than 100% throttle especially which I would if i were testing a lot of tuning work and time goes into that to give each component a fair shake and throttle progressivity in lower TP's have to be equal as well as engine temps etc., etc., etc,. I can agree that stroker ads to this forum also but it does take a lot of time I do a fair comparison on parts. I just finished one yesterday on a throttle body change and it is a lot more tedious than some might realize and that's no BS. Other than that, I have been picked off and banned from this place before and without a question, I deserved it. That said, now that I pay to have the opportunity to garner business here, I have a new appreciation for the rules set forth to help keep the forum going for everyone and to have an opportunity to garner business and support the industry. If and when you start paying money for that previledge you start to see the other side and get frustrated at times when you feel like the services you offer and pay to offer here might be slipping right thru your fingers to someone who doesn't pay to have that priveledge and I am not here to stir up any BS and I don't want any part of any BS but I can't see how having members post things that may open doors for business of another member here who is obviously open for hire for work is right either. In my mind that just undermines the authorities here and frankly its insulting to the intelligence of the paying sponsors and behind closed doors, I've heard guys that do pay say that it makes them want to invest in their opportunities elsewhere. Lets face it, this very forum is probably full of the best guys in he business but to be honest, that's because there are a lot of guys here that have a lot of experience in this industry and you know where that leads us, this forum is full of that experience because there are so many shops here and vendors here paying and non paying. I do appreciate the place and the guys that are in charge around here do handle things pretty well all things considered. I have been in trouble several times and they usually give me the benefit of the doubt and erase my post and we move on and the forum keeps expanding and knowledge keeps being passed around. If you don't pay, you shouldn't be posting prices on parts of services. The rules say that. Even guys that do pay can't do that. If you do this to pay the bills and you don't pay a vendor fee, I'd say consider yourselves lucky because its no secret that a lot of guys make money from being here and are not required by the rules to give back. Again, I'm not trying to stir up any more BS but at least have the honor to see things objectively. If my post is out of line, admins, please remove it and I will forever hold my peace but my intentions are good. It just gets a little old with shops taking shots at one another in the public forums. Have I been guilty of it myself? Absolutely! Am I wrong for it? Absolutely! Do I deserve special treatment because I pay to play? No. Posting a typed out response removes the human element and the context of what people say sometimes and things can get misinterpreted but sometimes there's no mistaking what a guy is saying. I've been involved with both but hey, we all enjoy the same things and it seems like I get a phone call about 2 times a week asking if I heard what happened on the forums. What a drag... Beers for everyone on me at the show in Cinci this year. Hopefully we can put the BS aside and not end up having a brawl. Everybody wants to be the best. Man, let it go...
QuoteSame thing happened to me about a week ago in a different thread. I was just showing a price difference but some took it as advertising. Not a big deal. I understand there are vendors that pay to advertise and there are certain rules that go along with it. Just relay the info through Ray and let him post it.
I could care less as well . I was not posting prices as advertising either .
I didn't really like the donation thing myself . As it was bound to cause hard feelings.
But since it was out there , I gave my price .
Larry
Watch your back . The one that pushed the button is usually the one that swears they don't have a Problem .
I am glad I don't have to do this for a living . Competition and back stabbing is brutal among these vendors .
I have been following this thread religiously since inception. I would like to comment as a "fly on the wall" nobody. I don't think Jim meant to advertise anything. As a matter of fact I have communicated with him and he seems to be plenty busy without advertising. Jim (and a few other "professionals") on this site give HTT the credibility it has earned. Where would we be without them? A gossip club? I think it was a slip of the tongue (key board) in an attempt to help everyone that is following the progress of No Cent's build. Look at how many pages of info and views are related to this thread.
I also understand why the administrators had to react to a complaint, but it's not always black and white. It's too bad it couldn't have been settled more gently. Jim seems to have the voice of reason in most of his contributions and thouroughly understands the "keep it simple" theory. His stats show more than 2 1/2 contributions per day that helps someone here on this forum. I for one appreciate "all" of the excellent input by professionals like Jim. Especially when they respect each other.
I can't help but notice how everyone has puckered up since Jim's response got him spanked. That is very telling about the respect he (and others here) deserve and receive. No Cents is blowing all his pool shootin' money on this project and sharing with all of us. Jim is just one of the experts helping him (us) out. There have been threads by head porters and suppliers offering "things" for free or for shipping cost to help individuals. What was different there?
I just feel I have to say something about how much I appreciate the way this forum and everyone involved have taken me from my hot rod pan / shovelhead background and helped me understand the twincam. I even had HTT members meet me in California last April to assist my wife and I in launching a tour on a rental RG out of San Diego. My new 120R project has revitalised my hot rod interests. Please, lets not let this stuff kill threads like this. This is high level stuff that happens here. :emsad:
Let me clarify that Jim did not get "spanked" at all by this site's admins regarding the post in question. In fact, he was not even told to remove it. I simply got tired of the whining about it, explained what was going on, and nicely asked if he would change it...
I never found the post to be an issue when taken in context. But I appreciate his willingness to make the "issue" go away. :up:
Let me clarify that Jim did not get "spanked" at all by this site's admins regarding the post in question. In fact, he was not even told to remove it. I simply got tired of the whining about it, explained what was going on, and nicely asked if he would change it...
My apologies Coyote. I guess it's not always what it appears to be. :hug: I was simply trying to say, as a bystander that was enjoying this excellent thread, that I hated to see any dissention in the ranks (if that was what was occurring). :nix: With 34,000 views and almost 1000 replies I thought it was important. Now lets test that pipe! :koolaid:
I'm the one that's guilty here. :slap:
1FSTRK posted he would like to see the engine remain the same with only the pipe difference shown in a re-tune and would be willing to donate towards the cause.
My big mouth responded with my fuel costs and whatever Jim's cost would be as a joke. Jim stated what his dyno fee is...and I never took it as advertisement...just an honest reply to my posting. Maybe others didn't see it that way...and I guess I kind of understand.
Many other members were quick to chime in and wanted to donate towards the dyno tune to be able to see the data that would come from it. It was a nice gesture from the members here!
As far as Jim goes...he is a 1st class stand up man that has a wealth of knowledge and eagerly shares it... and he is one of the best tuners in the country...and I feel bad for him that this went the way it did. Like I said...I take the full blame!
The plan is to still have Jim re-tune my bike in the next few weeks...with only a pipe change.
I figured he would post the results....good/or bad...but I wouldn't blame him now...if he doesn't post them. :hug:
I figured he would post the results....good/or bad...but I wouldn't blame him now...if he doesn't post them.
Will you? I would love to see it. :smilep: "enquiring minds need to know"
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 12, 2013, 11:46:50 AM
Don't worry about things that don't concern you .
Ray will do just fine without you as his mouth piece
Get off your high horse, no one would be concerned for him if you hadn't responded like a 10 year old. boo hoo
Anyone remember the RB Racing to Thunderheader dyno comparison that Jim did a few years ago? Good stuff.
Jim's opinion and insight carries allot of weight. I really like the fact that tuning and working on bikes is not Jim's sole or main source of income. Truth be told, Jim is an accomplished engineer and works in a very important industry.
Tuning bikes might help offset the cost of Jim's toys but unlike so many other tuners on this forum, Jim is not dependent on tuning bikes for his lively hood. To me this makes Jim so much more credible than all the tuning vendors on this forum. I suspect the only reason Jim tunes other peoples bikes is to give him some variety in his laboratory.
@Jim - You walk amongst the big dogs and have nothing to prove here. I love you man.
TP
And just to add, his passion for the same performance gains that we all are striving for in this part of the forum.
:agree:
very well put Jay...you are absolutely correct!
a little update on the bike with the Burns pipe.
I've been riding it to work all week...it's a little cool in the mornings with the temp's in the 30*'s and the temp's in the mid 50*-65* range on the way home. Most of my rides I have been taking the long way home...I just don't want to get off it because I know winter is just around the corner.
It definitely needs a re-tune with this new Burns pipe. It seems to be running a little rich now...my guess is that the bigger diameter stepped head pipes are the main factor. Sometimes you can faintly smell unburned fuel.
One thing that I've noticed is it doesn't want to fall back to the 1000 rpm idle until it's totally up to full temp...it will run at around 1100 rpm's until the oil temp is over 200*...and I think the little higher idle is from the extra fuel it's getting...and not needed with this pipe.
The engine seems to be running a little cooler on the oil temps also with this pipe...my guess is the better exhaust flow and the extra fuel it's getting is contributing to most of that.
I don't think Jim will have a problem dialing it in. It just has that loaded and cocked feeling in it everywhere again...like it had before when he sent me a new map with the throttle progressivity dialed back a touch. The throttle sensitivity will have to be addressed again...for sure. Otherwise...the pipe seems to be performing very nicely.
its colder outside and it takes longer to get up to temp. your idle is set by temp.
my engine temps are staying down around 200-215 right now vs the 235-250 i saw in the heat.
:up:
thanks Jim. I know with the outside temp's it takes it longer to come up to full song. You'll see what I'm talking about...this thing is back to being cocked and loaded again...just as bad as it was before. I'm having to pull my clutch lever in when I go around the two 90* s-bends on the road I live on and coast thru them again. There is no way I can roll thru them with giving it any kind of throttle...it just wants to launch off like a bat out of hell. It's definitely got some low end power with this pipe. Not much for slow speed manners. The cams are a thumpin and it wants to getty up and go.
It's angry again...but I know you'll like that :hyst:
the old Duracell is headed back to Jim's Saturday morning for a re-tune. The only change that was made to the bike...is the Burns pipe.
I guess we will find out how she does sometime next week. :embarrassed:
great let us know the end of the long cat story bag :up:
Quote from: fidel on November 21, 2013, 02:52:28 PM
great let us know the end of the long cat story bag :up:
Although it will be interesting to see the difference the pipe makes, I hope this is just the base line for the future cam and compression bump. :smilep:
Yes, I am an enabler. Out of curiosity ( and laziness as I don't want to reread all the posts ) which cam and cr did you have Burns design this pipe for?
okay
OH come'on this is got to be the Ultimate climax,If not back to the drawing board. :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on November 21, 2013, 03:33:57 PM
your right fidel...I'm done...no more posting about the MOST PUBLICIZED 124 in HTT history.
This has been too long of a posting anyway.
I fixed it for ya :hyst: :beer:
i for one have enjoyed the posting about your beast :up:
need more peeps to do the same
best of luck Travis :beer:
Quote from: hotbo on November 21, 2013, 04:50:19 PM
i for one have enjoyed the posting about your beast :up:
need more peeps to do the same
best of luck Travis :beer:
:agree: Keep em coming Ray, BTW are you done with them keys?
I built a 124 this summer using S&S crank, cylinders, pistons, gear drives, dual runner air cleaner; 110 heads by Dan Vance who also did the Timken conversion; Woods 408-6 cam and lifters; HPI 58mm throttle body with 62mm intake; rb Racing 2" LSR pipe; Power Vision tuning(no dyno close). Mr Woods said I might have starting problems and suggested additional compression releases. That concerned me so thought a lower compression might be good. Not good because I am not seeing the power talked about in this post. In you all's opinion how much compression can I run and whats a good piston to go with, without pinging and knocking problems? Sometimes I don't have the best gas and have cold mornings at times. Also It starts easy with using just the manual releases. Please help and thanks in advance.
10.8ish with a 408-6 cam . Ran it personally at 11 to 1 and it was pretty hard to start hot even with releases
Quote from: Snowyone on November 22, 2013, 01:58:34 PM
I built a 124 this summer using S&S crank, cylinders, pistons, gear drives, dual runner air cleaner; 110 heads by Dan Vance who also did the Timken conversion; Woods 408-6 cam and lifters; HPI 58mm throttle body with 62mm intake; rb Racing 2" LSR pipe; Power Vision tuning(no dyno close). Mr Woods said I might have starting problems and suggested additional compression releases. That concerned me so thought a lower compression might be good. Not good because I am not seeing the power talked about in this post. In you all's opinion how much compression can I run and whats a good piston to go with, without pinging and knocking problems? Sometimes I don't have the best gas and have cold mornings at times. Also It starts easy with using just the manual releases. Please help and thanks in advance.
Probably should start a new thread
Sorry, thought the same thing after i hit post :bf: cant wait to see Ray's results with the burns pipe . Particularly the tq. Curve and what side it moves to.
Sorry about the poach it's just that there was so much information on the 124. I'll further my quest in another string.
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on November 22, 2013, 02:56:14 PM
Sorry, thought the same thing after i hit post :bf: cant wait to see Ray's results with the burns pipe . Particularly the tq. Curve and what side it moves to.
me too - this has been a great thread - thanks Ray and everyone else that has offered their input
Ray are you pacing like an expectant father?
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 23, 2013, 09:42:42 AM
Ray are you pacing like an expectant father?
:hyst:
Busy week at work coming up .
After this week I will be off until the new year . :smilep:
But have a lot I do in three days .
Hope to get on it tommorow evening .
It's on the drum ray .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null_zps5b74efc7.jpg)
Herko blocks are in and the anticipation begins. Sleep tight Ray. May you have a great sheet to make up for loss of sleep.
Quote from: jam65 on November 24, 2013, 02:40:44 PM
Herko blocks are in and the anticipation begins. Sleep tight Ray. May you have a great sheet to make up for loss of sleep.
:up:
:missed:
Herko blocks and a AMRA sticker installed...Jim seems to be making headway :hyst:
I actually had my best night sleep in weeks...I didn't even think about the re-tune :wink:
the first bit of porn.
this is as delivered ...no tuning yet
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets276.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets276.jpg.html)
Eric this is for you
this is no tuning ...as delivered on the zilla map
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets278.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets278.jpg.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets279.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets279.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 25, 2013, 06:09:48 PM
the first bit of porn.
this is as delivered ...no tuning yet
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets276.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets276.jpg.html)
Looks like a nice flatland curve.. :wink:
Max
it looks like it has some serious potential there Max. :smilep:
The afr tables show it definitely needed a re-tune with this pipe...which I knew it would.
I'm liking the lines on the 1st graph I'm seeing for it...as it was dropped off to Jim. No more 4300 rpm dip. The bottom end will need some work for sure...but looks promising.
I'm confident that Jim will work his magic on the drum and dial it in exceeding my expectations.
Now I'm starting to pace like the expectant father :hyst: this is good stuff!
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2013, 04:36:19 AM
Now I'm starting to pace like the expectant father :hyst: this is good stuff!
:hyst: :hyst:
:pop:
Know that feeling all to well.
I haven't been on the forum in a while. Work has been so busy but is starting to slow down now. I just got caught up on this thread. One of my favorite threads on here Ray. Keep the good stuff coming. I wish Strokerjlk tuned carbed bikes. I would take mine there. He isn't even that far away.
Should be a runner-
Can't wait till you get it to the track.
Here's a 10 second bagger (real daily ridden bagger like yours, not a stripped, lightened, dedicated race only bagger)-
I think yours should run mid 11's all day but who know till it goes down the track...
pass time S&S 145ci Road King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muDI03Kvg00#)
I've referred to that Pass Time episode a few times here. For those wondering if a belt can hold up to serious power. 145" with George's rather large...frame, lifting the front wheel in 2nd.
You've got to admire George Bryce's success...and for thinking outside of the box on his creations. He is an innovator...for sure.
His isn't afraid to launch that 200hp monster off the line with the stock belt and tire.
I 1st seen a picture of his bike with the front tire up in the air showing the belt on the rear a few years ago on the RB Racing site.
Very impressive bagger.
Thanks for posting that Paul, never saw it before, nasty all over.
Quote from: pwmorris on November 26, 2013, 01:52:54 PM
Should be a runner-
Can't wait till you get it to the track.
Here's a 10 second bagger (real daily ridden bagger like yours, not a stripped, lightened, dedicated race only bagger)-
I think yours should run mid 11's all day but who know till it goes down the track...
pass time S&S 145ci Road King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muDI03Kvg00#)
George can ride em :beer:
but what class would you run with it?
he cant run NHRA draggin bagger or AMRA dresser class's. with 145 ci.
it takes a 10.6 or better to win dresser class AMRA with a N/A 124 ci limit (127 overbore limit)
it a cool bike though. :up:
Ray it stuck right where i though it would. :banghead:
i tried to get that 150
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets282.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets282.jpg.html)
this is what the tune got ya
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets281.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets281.jpg.html)
blue is zilla
red is burns
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets284.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets284.jpg.html)
runs #22 & 34. 150 club
and the ones i like to see ..UNCORRECTED
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets285.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets285.jpg.html)
It's amazing to see the difference that a pipe will make. :up:
Yes, it sure did make a difference. Red if you were after top end, blue has more low end. I'm more of a blue rider I think.
Either way, it's nice power. :up:
very nice!!! imo im a red rider :chop:
with that much power who care about the low end change! you wont feel it imo.
but you will feel the difference every where else :beer:
Congrats to Jim and Ray :scoot:
great job ray and nice pipe thanks for the post
Nice job Guy's! :up:
:up:
great job Jim!
So...the old Duracell likes the new pipe...aye?
Like I said before...this thing is at 4000 rpm already in the blink of an eye. Now by 4K...it's already making more power with this pipe and it carries it on out higher and further.
The thing that I'm really impressed with is....at 5250 rpm it looks to be making about 15 more horsepower and torque in that area...but still isn't done making horsepower.
I guess I will have to live with my 1st attempt at making an exhaust pipe. I don't think it turned out too awfully bad...for a barn built pipe.
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2013, 07:06:33 PM
:up:
great job Jim!
So...the old Duracell likes the new pipe...aye?
Like I said before...this thing is at 4000 rpm already in the blink of an eye. Now by 4K...it's already making more power with this pipe and it carries it on out higher and further.
The thing that I'm really impressed with is....at 5250 rpm it looks to be making about 15 more horsepower and torque in that area...but still isn't done making horsepower.
I guess I will have to live with my 1st attempt at making an exhaust pipe. I don't think it turned out too awfully bad...for a barn built pipe.
you did good Ray
a centerfold pipe, that works and sounds as good as it looks :up:
did you suit up....and take it out for a putt?
Burrrr...if you did :hyst:
Great job guys! It did almost what I thought it would Ray. Great thing about those big engines, you can move everything to the right and get that top end hp and give up a little torque down low in its favor. Still more than enough to stretch your arms out down low but that hp will carry it out much better.
Hope yours didn't hurt Jims dyno to much, mines gonna need it bad! It'll be embarrassing compared to the Duracell tho.
Congrats on the success!
WOW now that's a great power house right there you will enjoy that ride!Just twist the wick and hang on,Great job to all! :up: :wink:
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 26, 2013, 06:09:19 PM
blue is zilla
red is burns
Any way to tweak the pipe to capture the low end of the villa? Maybe a tad bit of restriction? Probably not worth messing with, probably would reduce the tits on the bull... apple vs. pear?? I'll take the apple..lol
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg.html)
:up: :up:
Yup, bout perfect there! I like that pipe and the curves it made!
*Nice tune Jim.
Quote from: hotbo on November 26, 2013, 06:35:16 PM
very nice!!! imo im a red rider :chop:
with that much power who care about the low end change! you wont feel it imo.
but you will feel the difference every where else :beer:
Congrats to Jim and Ray :scoot:
exactly what I was thinking too. congrats.
Love the pipe Ray, plenty of low end grunt, and upper too boot. Doesn't get much better for a street driven machine.
As usual fine work Stroker. :up:
I always wanted my torque on the left hand side all my life...until I built and rode this 124" engine.
I found out pretty quickly that a 124"er with moderate compression (11.10:1) and with some good flowing headwork produces plenty of power on the lower end better than anything else I've ever built and ridden. The extra cubes definitely come into play and there is no replacement for them.
This engine has had that "loaded and cocked" feeling right off idle with the Zilla and 662-2 cams installed. My goal with the Burns pipe was to get rid of the dip it had in the middle and have it carry the power out a little better in the mid range and the top end...trying to hopefully not kill the bottom end too much. The bottom end could of actually stood to lose a little of it's angriness...and it looks like I accomplished both my goals.
It will be nice to have it a little tamer in town...but twist the wick on it...and dump it at around 4K...it becomes a no holds bar angry rocker and shows it's other side. :wink:
I hope everyone is able to gather any usable information/data from this thread on the 124"er's journey. Hopefully this info might help someone in the future with projects that they might have.
I've learned a lot along the way myself...and I really appreciate all the kind words and support I've received from everyone along the way!
:hug:
Ray
Thanks for including us in your quest for power.
The number of pages as well as views for this thread shows this is what people come to HTT for. The real life trial and error with data and documents to show the outcome beats some self-proclaimed internet expert spewing theory or equations that may or may not even apply to the specific needs of the Harley motor.
You did your research, did the build, had it properly tuned, and shared it all including the good and bad not once but twice with great success. Not many can build a 117 and 124 with all it takes to do it right such a short time span, so my hat is off to you. To think we got to come along for the ride at no charge, and you were not even trying to market anything..
Not sure if I should bring this up but back at the beginning of the 117 thread you sent me a PM because of comments I made about your butt dyno. My only intent then was to get you to go the extra mile and get a good tune so you would get all you could from a good build. I think that tune picked you up about 10-12 hp across the board. Sense then you have gain on each trip to the dyno and the best part is you can see what works and where. I have been playing with cars and bikes and paying for the test results for years and I had you pegged for a guy that could appreciate the value of the information from the start. I have to say now the teacher has become the student, you have shown me plenty here. Thanks again for share with us.
One more thanks to stroker going the extra with posting graphs, and all the other data and back ground that helps make a thread like this work.
Very well said 1FSTRK, very well said. :up:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 27, 2013, 07:06:06 AM
Very well said 1FSTRK, very well said. :up:
:up: :beer:
Now Ray, about them tool box keys...
Wonder what it would do with some compression and the S&S 640 of C/R 650'? :potstir:
:hyst: sorry ray couldn't help myself . Better send the pistons and cams to Durwood Along with the toolbox keys
Laser
I think anything gained in the bottom by restriction ,will be a trade off with top end loss.
Hard to think of a zilla as restrictive , but that's why it did better down low .
Eric
I took 3-4 deg of timing out from 4000 up
Added timing down low. It's been a learning experience for me along the way as well.
Thanks guys :beer:
Damn'it Jim, I forgot about them pistons and cams, Ray will be needing those keys... :potstir:
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 27, 2013, 07:18:38 AM
[Wonder what it would do with some compression and the S&S 640 of C/R 650'? :potstir:]
nope I'm not falling for that one...you two can tag team up together on me all you want :gob:
I haven't gave those pistons and cams another thought :doh: ...yeah right! :banghead: :hyst:
you both know I'm a little 8-up :emoGroan:
Quote from: No Cents on November 27, 2013, 06:12:57 AM
I always wanted my torque on the left hand side all my life...until I built and rode this 124" engine.
I found out pretty quickly that a 124"er with moderate compression (11.10:1) and with some good flowing headwork produces plenty of power on the lower end better than anything else I've ever built and ridden. The extra cubes definitely come into play and there is no replacement for them.
This engine has had that "loaded and cocked" feeling right off idle with the Zilla and 662-2 cams installed. My goal with the Burns pipe was to get rid of the dip it had in the middle and have it carry the power out a little better in the mid range and the top end...trying to hopefully no kill the bottom end too much. The bottom end could of actually stood to lose a little of it's angriness...and it looks like I accomplished both my goals.
It will be nice to have it a little tamer in town...but twist the wick on it...and dump it at around 4K...it becomes a no holds bar angry rocker and shows it's other side. :wink:
I hope everyone is able to gather any usable information/data from this thread on the 124"er's journey. Hopefully this info might help someone in the future with projects that they might have.
I've learned a lot along the way myself...and I really appreciate all the kind words and support I've received from everyone along the way!
:hug:
Ray
Well said Ray, well said.... the best of all worlds, and only cubes can get you there.
That's pretty much what I expected to hear from you about a butt plug Jim. Fits right in with Ray's plan from the start.
Nice job all around! :up:
Looks like a small torque dip around 3000rpm. I also have one with the burns pipe around 3500rpm. Adding some back pressure helped it out.
Looks like a runner.
Merc...the new Burns pipe is the red line...not the blue line with the torque dip.
''Thanks for including us in your quest for power.
The number of pages as well as views for this thread shows this is what people come to HTT for. The real life trial and error with data and documents to show the outcome beats some self-proclaimed internet expert spewing theory or equations that may or may not even apply to the specific needs of the Harley motor.
You did your research, did the build, had it properly tuned, and shared it all including the good and bad not once but twice with great success. Not many can build a 117 and 124 with all it takes to do it right such a short time span, so my hat is off to you. To think we got to come along for the ride at no charge, and you were not even trying to market anything..''
:agree: Couldn't say it any better - thanks :up:
Looks good Ray. :scoot:
:up:
thanks.
I'm pretty excited to go tomorrow and bring it home. I can't wait to take it out for a ride with another fine looking tune that Jim has put in it...and actually feel the difference it made. Jim has the touch!
From the graphs Jim has posted...it looks like it will have a bunch of fun factor in it...when rolling it down the road. :embarrassed:
here is a little video Jim just sent me of the bike with it's new tune
http://youtu.be/kprjxGMat6M (http://youtu.be/kprjxGMat6M)
Ray, Sounds good! :up:
Jim, need a holeshot video.... :potstir:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 28, 2013, 09:37:47 AM
Ray, Sounds good! :up:
Jim, need a holeshot video.... :potstir:
just got back from a 30 min ride ,wow what a diff the shocks made.
it rides so smooth now.
Brian cold roads = no hole shot. tire comes un-glued no problem.
it pulls 6 th gear 55-60 mph 2300-2400 no problem
5 th gear at 55 mph is sweet in 5 th gear. cant see any low end problems :chop:
what...no velcro needed on the seat now :doh: ...Durwoods not going to be happy with that and he will probably want those pistons in now :hyst:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 28, 2013, 09:37:47 AM
Ray, Sounds good! :up:
Jim, need a holeshot video.... :potstir:
Maybe Ray will make one for us!
:embarrassed:
I promised I would.
Man, sounds good, mechanically quiet :up:
Quote from: Deye76 on November 28, 2013, 01:25:30 PM
Man, sounds good, mechanically quiet :up:
Even his noisy cam motor was quiet . :beer:
Quote from: No Cents on November 28, 2013, 11:16:18 AM
what...no velcro needed on the seat now :doh: ...Durwoods not going to be happy with that and he will probably want those pistons in now :hyst:
Dude, that bike ROCKS, I wouldn't change a thing....
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 28, 2013, 11:09:17 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 28, 2013, 09:37:47 AM
Ray, Sounds good! :up:
Jim, need a holeshot video.... :potstir:
just got back from a 30 min ride ,wow what a diff the shocks made.
it rides so smooth now.
Brian cold roads = no hole shot. tire comes un-glued no problem.
it pulls 6 th gear 55-60 mph 2300-2400 no problem
5 th gear at 55 mph is sweet in 5 th gear. cant see any low end problems :chop:
Oh I was teasing more than anything else.... :smiled:
I know that it has no problem breaking the rear loose, and also know how cold roads can get you in trouble quickly! :scoot:
Ray Kudos to ya mate, yah have inspired me to get my pipe built for my 120r
Ray is out doing the Black Friday sales looking for rear tires. :hyst: :potstir: :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2013, 07:06:33 PM
great job Jim!
So...the old Duracell likes the new pipe...aye?
Like I said before...this thing is at 4000 rpm already in the blink of an eye. Now by 4K...it's already making more power with this pipe and it carries it on out higher and further.
The thing that I'm really impressed with is....at 5250 rpm it looks to be making about 15 more horsepower and torque in that area...but still isn't done making horsepower.
I guess I will have to live with my 1st attempt at making an exhaust pipe. I don't think it turned out too awfully bad...for a barn built pipe.
Pipe came out great, good job! Try not to focus on the uncorrected sheet, as awesome as it looks. It greatly exaggerates the gains of the new pipe with the 30* cooler and less humid conditions. On the sae apples to apples sheet it looks to lose 5-15ft lbs below 4k and gain 5-8ish hp above 4500. Exactly what one would think a shorter more free flowing hp pipe would do. Most bagger guys wouldn't want to give up the torque for the hp but I would gladly just for the reasons you stated. I would much prefer the curve of the new pipe. Plenty of torque either way with the big inch motor, a little softer on the bottom makes it easier to ride in any situation, and it comes on harder where you really need it. :up: even though it's a bagger, another plus in my book is how much lighter that pipe is than the big zilla. You didn't happen to weigh them did you? I'd be curious how much.
Ride it as is for a while then unlock the toolbox and slip those Diamonds and 640's in it.
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on November 29, 2013, 03:38:14 AM
Ray is out doing the Black Friday sales looking for rear tires. :hyst: :potstir: :wink:
was you following me down the tire isle Mike :hyst:
[attach=0]
No I just got back from Jims a little while ago. You know me I had to just take it out for a short putt and feel it.
I guess it's like wfolarry says about the numbers not meaning chit...because this is testimony to it.
This thing lacks nothing on the bottom end...even if the dyno #'s showed it lost some bottom end. I can crack the throttle about a quarter turn at 2K in 1st gear and it will instantly start spinning the tire. So I tried 2nd gear at 2500 rpms...coasting along then crack it with about 1/4 throttle again...same results...it just bust the tire loose. So I thought....hummmm. So I caught the red light coming out of town and rolled out in 1st gear slowly...pulled the clutch in and reved it to 4K and let it chew. :smilep:
All I can say is WOW !!!
I'm truly impressed with how it performs above 4K...you can play with the throttle between 4-5K in 1st gear and spin the rear tire as long as you want. I launched it a little harder at the stop sign before the road to my house. All I can say is that it has never ran like this before....I'm pretty much speechless...if you can believe that one :hyst:
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
And no I can't Believe you're speechless I'll have to think about that one for a minute,but back on track there is no Feeling like a big block V-twin sitting between your knees And twisting on it! :hyst: :up: :wink: In joy your new ride and please stay out of trouble with the Po Po!!!!!
I see a Fat Baggers Inc wide tire kit in your future.
If I can get the tire in the picture under there with the chain conversion...I'll be happy.
That's a 160/60-18 Pirelli Angel GT rear tire and a 120/70-21 Shinko front tire in the above picture.
Shinko was the only company I could find that makes a 21" front radial...but they don't make a 160/60-18 rear tire. So I guess I'll try two different manufactures radials.
I wanted to try radials on both ends this time.
My front bias ply Metz has dry rot cracks in it after only a season and a half. The rear Metz...is toast...for some reason :embarrassed:
good for you Ray :up:
you've worked very hard in more ways than one to get to where you are - congratulations :beer:
:chop:
Quote from: No Cents on November 29, 2013, 02:41:55 PM
If I can get the tire in the picture under there with the chain conversion...I'll be happy.
That's a 160/60-18 Pirelli Angel GT rear tire and a 120/70-21 Shinko front tire in the above picture.
Shinko was the only company I could find that makes a 21" front radial...but they don't make a 160/60-18 rear tire. So I guess I'll try two different manufactures radials.
I wanted to try radials on both ends this time.
My front bias ply Metz has dry rot cracks in it after only a season and a half. The rear Metz...is toast...for some reason :embarrassed:
I run Metzler 880 xxl's on my Deuce. They are both radial. They make a 120/70H 21 if you don't like the Shinko. I've been thinking about trying a Shinko on the rear.
https://www.denniskirk.com/543228.sku?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&gclid=CPrU4_WJi7sCFccRMwodtxcAUQ (https://www.denniskirk.com/543228.sku?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&gclid=CPrU4_WJi7sCFccRMwodtxcAUQ)
They also make a 160/60 VR 18.
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/6130/i/metzeler-me-880-marathon-xxl-rear-tire (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/6130/i/metzeler-me-880-marathon-xxl-rear-tire)
I almost bought the Avons for it this time...but I kept going back and re-reading the reviews and testing on this new Pirelli Angel GT.
It replaces the Angel ST. The GT is a dual compound radial with a wider contact patch over the ST. I was pretty impressed with the testing and results with this new GT tire.
I figured I'd give one a try and if I don't like it...well I'll just burn it up real quick.
You'll need more air pressure with the radials.
One of the problems I was finding when looking for radials was the load index was lower.
Almost settled with avons since so many other people run them but the load index wasn't setting easy with me. I called avon to ask them about it and they obviously didn't recommend using them.
The metzler was the only thing I could find with a high enough load index
vdop
I did weigh the Zilla muffler and the Burns muffler with the collector welded on to it for Jam65.
The Zilla muffler weighed in at 9.790 pds.
The Burns muffler and collector weighed in at 4.680 pds...that's less than 1/2 the weight with a collector welded on it. Very light system.
06R/G
The new Angel GT is designed for a touring bike with bags and 2 up riding...according to Pirelli.com's web site
Thumper
the 120/70-21 Metz is a bias ply tire. Metzler does not make a 21" front radial, nor Avon, or Michelin, or Pirelli, or Dunlop, or Bridgestone, etc. I google searched for a 21" front radial motorcycle tire and Shinko was the only manufacture that came up with one in my search...at least to the best of my knowledge from what I could find.
The add says radial:
http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_165_172_607&products_id=6078 (http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_165_172_607&products_id=6078)
Dunlop also make one in the E3
okay...I guess google lied to me then...my mistake.
I like the way the 880 xxl's handle. The big deal for me is that it is the only 200mm which fits my rear rim. The rears have always been made in Germany and the fronts from Brazil. My last front, which I swapped out this last summer, started cracking after 2 seasons. The rear just wears down.
No mistake Ray.
Just nice to know you have options, unlike me, not many 18" front available in radials.
Quote from: 06roadglide on November 29, 2013, 05:58:05 PM
No mistake Ray.
Just nice to know you have options, unlike me, not many 18" front available in radials.
You have a few choices, there are probably more:
http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_165_172_607&products_id=4637 (http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_165_172_607&products_id=4637)
http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=33_892_894 (http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=33_892_894)
http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=33_892_896 (http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=33_892_896)
http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_82_91&products_id=675 (http://www.americanmototire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_82_91&products_id=675)
I'm happy with the ME880's front and rear radial. As long as they are available.
I guess I should have mentioned that I like the front and rear to be matched also.
Has to be a 130/70 18 to fit the front of mine. A 140 rubs my fender and I think the 120's are a bit too small/light on the load index.
Just remember the weakest link-
Right now your rear tire is dissipating the stored energy that you release when you twist your right wrist while releasing your clutch.
The rear tire is your weakest link but also your friend.
You get a rear tire that hooks and bam-up goes the front end, possiblly slamming down all that weight on your front suspension.
That energy will also get transferred to your chassis, rear belt, clutch, etc...
Pick your poison...
:up: I know Paul. The tire is my friend right now...it's about wore out and spins very easily, especially on these cooler roads right now.
I do have everything I need to do the chain conversion sitting on the work bench...but that will probably show the next weakest link as you stated.
I think the pipe is a savior and blessing in disguise also. It has moved the torque more to the right so it doesn't have that sudden low end blast on the drivetrain.
But when it hits that sweet spot...it's lock and loaded for bear it feels like.
This is an on going experiment...and I'm sure it's only getting started :doh:
It still has a long way to go to get it where I want it...but I think it has made some progress towards my final goal.
Shinko 150 rear @ 10-13 psi . Then lets see it reach for the sky . :potstir:
Or drop the pressure to 13 psi with the metzler . Have randy shoot the video :fish:
"Excuse me while I kiss the sky " :smilep:
Videographer is ready to catch ray riding some 1 oclockers.. :beer:.
Quote from: groundhog135 on November 30, 2013, 07:24:04 AM
Videographer is ready to catch ray riding some 1 oclockers.. :beer:.
1 oclockers :doh:
more like this :scoot: :hyst:
No Cents in leaving a tire with some rubber on it. A video burning it down a little would be nice.
Quote from: strokerjlk on November 26, 2013, 06:09:19 PM
blue is zilla
red is burns
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/dynosheets283.jpg.html)
Jim was kind enough :up: to make and send me a new map yesterday with the throttle progressivity adjusted a little bit. It seemed to had lost a little bit of it's blip factor...but now it's back. The throttle response is amazing on it again and I couldn't be happier with the way it performs now with the Burns pipe.
It was 46* outside so I took it out for a little ride yesterday for about an hour or so. It's got excellent in town slow speed manners now with the ability to roll on it from any rpm while moving slow...with absolutely no hesitation and smooth instant power delivery. This is by far the best the bike has ever felt.
I know the dyno graph shows a lose in bottom end torque...but I sure can't feel it anywhere. Once your above 2500-3000 rpm's it seems to be a totally different bike with tons of extra power on tap at the twist of the wick...which for some reason doesn't jive with the graph. :nix: The mid range and top end is mind boggling now. It's almost undescribable.
It tachs up so fast and hits that sweet spot in the rpm's before you realize it...and once it does...you better have it pointed straight...and be hanging on tight. :wink:
I wish it was the beginning of summer instead of going into the winter months. It's going to be hard to park this thing for the winter and not be able to get it out on the roads here in Ohio real soon.
The only future plans I have for it this winter is to do the chain conversion and mount a new set of tires on it...then I'll end up going stir crazy watching the snow fly :doh:
110 ft lbs at 2500? Mine only has 2 more than that at peak :hyst: If I was ever to ride a bike like that, I would be ruined :chop:
Why does the blue line dip at 45?
good question :nix: ...that's why I decided to make the Burns pipe to see if I could get rid of that 4500 dip.
No more dip at 4500...and way more fun to ride. The bike is a total different machine now.
Durwood...when we ever hook up...I plan on spoiling you...you have to feel it to believe it.
If you want to convert the rear to a 180 tire, it's a simple rear fender swap. Especially if you're already going to a chain conversion. I put a 180/55/18 on the rear of my 2007 using a fender from Native Custom Baggers. He uses a Klockwerks rear fender and welds in filler panels. This is an all steel set-up that is VERY stout.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on December 01, 2013, 10:14:17 AM
good question :nix: ...that's why I decided to make the Burns pipe to see if I could get rid of that 4500 dip.
No more dip at 4500...and way more fun to ride. The bike is a total different machine now.
Durwood...when we ever hook up...I plan on spoiling you...you have to feel it to believe it.
it doesn't have to dip. (if that's what you want to call it)
it could have been a nice flat 138/138 curve
once again ......if it wasn't working so good below 4500 rpm ,there wouldn't be a dip
Quote from: No Cents on December 01, 2013, 10:14:17 AM
Durwood...when we ever hook up...I plan on spoiling you...you have to feel it to believe it.
Thanks buddy, but I ain't riding one till I can afford one, Jim has offered on several occasions but I have not taken him up on it.
Reminds me of the first time I drank beer, shoulda never popped the top.. :hyst:
With a fender swap you can run a 180 with your belt, with a chain a 200 will fit. Need a wider rim.
:up:
thanks for the bigger fender and tire suggestions men.
I'll try to wedge this 160/60-18 tire under the rear that I've already got for next season.
It might be all I need if I can get it under the fender.
I got a chance to ride the bike again today...I'm pretty much speechless :embarrassed:
here is a question for those of you that might be interested in giving me an answer?
The guy that welded up my Burns pipe together for me...wanted to know today if there is a market for a pipe like mine?
He's curious...and he is wanting us to maybe make a few more. :nix: This guy knows nothing about Harleys other than they have two wheels...but he is a heck of a stainless steel welder/ fabricator by trade.
I told him I didn't think that there would be a lot of people interested in a pipe like mine...but I promised him I would ask for opinions.
Count me as a future customer! I've been following this whole thread and its been one hell of a RIDE thanks for sharing
You know what I think. :smiled:
The answer is in the response.
Quote from: No Cents on December 02, 2013, 04:24:33 PM
here is a question for those of you that might be interested in giving me an answer?
The guy that welded up my Burns pipe together for me...wanted to know today if there is a market for a pipe like mine?
He's curious...and he is wanting us to maybe make a few more. :nix: This guy knows nothing about Harleys other than they have two wheels...but he is a heck of a stainless steel welder/ fabricator by trade.
I told him I didn't think that there would be a lot of people interested in a pipe like mine...but I promised him I would ask for opinions.
I would like one for a softtail. Would it be built to my engine specs, and could it be made upswept like the softtail boarzilla?
Quote from: jam65 on December 02, 2013, 07:21:10 PM
The answer is in the response.
yep :agree: with you Jay...I don't see too many people saying that they would be interested in one. I guess I'll tell him I only had a few replies.
TA63...I don't have a softail to mock one up off of.
In truth I'm no longer interested in the pipe for my use. You'd need several bikes for mock up. I am glad it turned out well for you nocents, stroker.
this was my 1st attempt at trying to make a one off prototype pipe for myself...it will never be anything else but that...one of a kind that I made.
I personally like the way it turned out...and I will proudly run it.
I'd be interested in one but I don't know how much different one for a '09 would be.
Ray, the cat is out of the bag but what about the new thread to address the elephant in the room? You know the one I'm talking about, the new bigger pistons and the 640 cams we talked about in a recent conversation we had. :wink: Do the specs for the pipe need to change for that or are you going to change the pipe too for the elephant build? Might ought to have an extra key cut before Darren picks those up. BTW, nice job on the pipe. It did better than I would have predicted. If you make it down this way, I'd like to take it for a spin to see if I could feel the dip. Its real hard for me to give up that bottom end TQ on the street. When I get my heads done I may have to borrow your welder fella if I can't feel that dip. I'd have been real curious to see what a Thunderheader X pipe with some tweaking on the screen would do. I have one here going on a 120R with 10 over bore, DTT custom ignition curve, heads worked, thermal barrier coatings on the slugs and CC chambers, valves and exhaust port and a CV51 carb that just got back from Wood that got the Super King 505 treatment (very impressed with that work BTW). I may send the new T Header down to be coated inside and out as well.
James...Burns actually designed my pipe for the CR 650's & the S&S 640 cams with the higher compression pistons in mind. :koolaid1: still more left on tap.
There is no dip to feel on it at all...even with running the current 662-2's. It pulls great from idle, and even pulls great from when rolling in sixth gear and cruising at 55-60 mph...twist the throttle and it just delivers smooth constant power from everywhere...no hesitation...just instant power. But...if you wind it up to around 4K...you better be holding the *&%k on...it's a totally different animal in the mid range and top end areas. :wink: The in town slow speed mannerisms are perfect on it now...I'm actually quit impressed with that. This is the best it has ever been in town. Out of town...it's basically undiscribable the difference in the bike. It's a total blast to ride it and play with it wound up a little higher...it's actually scary fast.
Someday I will probably do the compression bump and run either the CR 650's or the 640's...but I just don't have the heart to pull it apart right now because it's running too good with it's current set up. When the top end needs a freshening up...I'll have the cylinders punched out for the +.010 over domed pistons then...but for now it's staying the way it is.
Right now the only plans for it is to do the chain conversion and have new rubber mounted front and back.
Then I'll just have to dream of being in Florida...while I watch the snow fly...which they say will be here this weekend :sick:
Someday my ass.... :oops:
Quote from: groundhog135 on December 04, 2013, 12:51:30 PM
Someday my ass.... :oops:
:smilep: :argue: :slap: :banghead: :hyst:
for me, "someday" would be a long ways down the road. :missed:
I don't know how you really improve on this motor? I believe it's everything you say it is and the dyno sheet proves it. You can f*ck up a good thing...people do it every day. You have a moderately beefed 124 that is making just about 150hp and over 140 ft libs of torque...what more would a guy need? It has good manners and will answer the call when the throttle is screwed on. It ain't a "torque dip" if the graph is always climbing up. And you can tell by the graph that she really comes alive at about 3500 rpm, which may look to some like a torque dip - to me it looks like the part where you say "oh sh*t!" Starts easy and will likely be very dependable. If I needed more than that, I think I'd build a killer street racer/bar hopper and leave this gem alone. Just my .02
Ever make pancakes and stir the batter too long? They don't taste quite as good... :wink:
Your bike...your choice. Either way, I'm jealous as hell. :smilep:
Good on you Ray (as the Aussies would say) :up: that's one fine machine!
:agree:
you said it correct. At 3500-4000 rpm it's got that "hold on tight" fun factor right there like it has never had before. There is no torque dip to feel at all.
I'm going to run this engine like it is....there is no need to pull it apart for more compression anytime soon.
groundhog135 is my friend and neighbor...his is just trying to get me going and :potstir: :hyst:
Ray,i was just messing with you,come buy the house and do some longer burn outs before you change that rear tire... :koolaid:
I knew you were only :potstir:
it doesn't look like it's coming out of the barn anytime soon :emsad: rain, snow, sleet and ice forecasted for tomorrow. Winter is here :sick:
Then the long term forecast doesn't look like it's going to warm up anytime soon.
I might as well put it up on the lift and start doing the chain conversion.
Your videographer director skills will have to wait...I guess :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on December 05, 2013, 03:39:01 AM
I knew you were only :potstir:
it doesn't look like it's coming out of the barn anytime soon :emsad: rain, snow, sleet and ice forecasted for tomorrow. Winter is here :sick:
Then the long term forecast doesn't look like it's going to warm up anytime soon.
I might as well put it up on the lift and start doing the chain conversion.
Your videographer director skills will have to wait...I guess :hyst:
its coming your way.
already freezing rain here :cry:
Hoping for some big snow! Got new shoes on my 4x4, and ready to have some fun this weekend! :smile:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 05, 2013, 04:40:20 PM
Hoping for some big snow! Got new shoes on my 4x4, and ready to have some fun this weekend! :smile:
Oh does that bring back some good time memories.
We would bring out the trucks on the on the level 3 nights and hit the bar. :-X
Ray, what are you're CCP's? Maybe a list again if you don't mind of the entire build with the final parts used would be helpful. I'm hoping to pull mine down this winter but already booked in the shop for a good bit and maybe moving to bigger place but will be interesting to compare my 124 to yours. I'm just low on compression for my 640's and entirely different head than you're running but it will be nice to compare the two builds. Maybe give guys a better idea of which way to approach this level of power whether starting with a build from ground up or buying a crate motor and starting from there. Not that one way is a one size fits all but still a nice comparison.
it sits at 200 ccp's in each hole. The build spec's are the same as listed in my very 1st post in this thread...with the exception of now I'm running Tman 662-2 cams and the pipe I made.
11.10:1 static compression
9.70:1 corrected
200.2 ccp's
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2013, 04:58:16 AM
it sits at 200 ccp's in each hole. The build spec's are the same as listed in my very 1st post in this thread...with the exception of now I'm running Tman 662-2 cams and the pipe I made.
11.10:1 static compression
9.70:1 corrected
200.2 ccp's
AND A SH*TLOAD OF POWER :wink:
QuoteI'm just low on compression for my 640's and entirely different head than you're running but it will be nice to compare the two builds. Maybe give guys a better idea of which way to approach this level of power whether starting with a build from ground up or buying a crate motor and starting from there. Not that one way is a one size fits all but still a nice comparison.
lets see :scratch: the builds differ
diff cams
diff heads
diff pipe
diff tuner
post your dyno sheet in the dyno section ,then we will be along shortly to tell you where you need improving
first suggestion ....662-2 cams then a good tune
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 06, 2013, 05:57:04 AM
QuoteI'm just low on compression for my 640's and entirely different head than you're running but it will be nice to compare the two builds. Maybe give guys a better idea of which way to approach this level of power whether starting with a build from ground up or buying a crate motor and starting from there. Not that one way is a one size fits all but still a nice comparison.
lets see :scratch: the builds differ
diff cams
diff heads
diff pipe
diff tuner
post your dyno sheet in the dyno section ,then we will be along shortly to tell you where you need improving
first suggestion ....662-2 cams then a good tune
Sounds like a great offer, James. Probably why this one isn't over there.
I like my 640's just fine. I know what needs to be done. I suppose this is where you come in and tell everyone again that I got a canned map from you one time huh, Jim? Lol
Like I said, Rays build with the burns pipe did better than I expected but I could never give up 16 TQ for 6 HP on a bike that is built for the street, that's my opinion but its not my bike.
Thanks for the PM, Ray. You certainly have a nice bike and nice build, no question and thanks for candidly sharing it here.
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on December 06, 2013, 10:51:01 AM
Like I said, Rays build with the burns pipe did better than I expected but I could never give up 16 TQ for 6 HP on a bike that is built for the street, that's my opinion but its not my bike.
How much torque do you need on the street?
Ray's bike still has a ton of torque that spins his rear tire at will and will pull his bagger up the highest mountain I'm sure-
Remember the most important part of his build, he loves riding the bike now more than ever-you can just tell from his posts. It ROCKS now!
At the end of the day, that's all that matters...
I agree with you, Paul on Ray being happy with the build. All Im saying is that if it were my bike, I would be happier with the extra TQ. I would think seat of the pants you could feel 16 TQ more than 6 HP. If I was running the bike at the track, I would take the HP. If you disagree, Ill just agree to disagree.
:hug:
Why did you go with the angel gt over a night dragon(or something else)
Trying to decide on a new rear tire for my shark nose. Can find much info on the gt's on a bagger.
Quote from: ratlover on December 06, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Why did you go with the angel gt over a night dragon(or something else)
Trying to decide on a new rear tire for my shark nose. Can find much info on the gt's on a bagger.
Does night dragon offer it in a radial? I didn't think they did
First I want to say Ray I have really enjoyed reading about your building adventures. About your exhaust project, when Truesdale was building the different pipes for the LSR "Hemi Bike" he spent several hours on the dyno with his basic design and a tig making changes until he felt satisfied with the results. As others have noted about using CAD programs that they are not perfect but can get you in the ball park. Burns uses a program as well as others using Pipe Max to get you started in the right area.
With little extra R&D you could have it all. Good job!
I have already sent my dyno sheet to Burns and asked them what would they have suggested to me if I had wanted more bottom end out of the pipe from the beginning.
I got their reply...and it would be done with smaller diameter tubing...and would come with the lose of some mid range and top end power...which is not even an option on this bike.
I would not change a thing to this pipe on my 124"er...it works with it perfectly. :wink:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 06, 2013, 10:43:25 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 06, 2013, 05:57:04 AM
QuoteI'm just low on compression for my 640's and entirely different head than you're running but it will be nice to compare the two builds. Maybe give guys a better idea of which way to approach this level of power whether starting with a build from ground up or buying a crate motor and starting from there. Not that one way is a one size fits all but still a nice comparison.
lets see :scratch: the builds differ
diff cams
diff heads
diff pipe
diff tuner
post your dyno sheet in the dyno section ,then we will be along shortly to tell you where you need improving
first suggestion ....662-2 cams then a good tune
Sounds like a great offer, James. Probably why this one isn't over there.
I posted this one in the dyno section for you Jason...critique away.
Quote from: INDEPENDENT 1 on December 06, 2013, 11:53:00 AM
I agree with you, Paul on Ray being happy with the build. All Im saying is that if it were my bike, I would be happier with the extra TQ. I would think seat of the pants you could feel 16 TQ more than 6 HP. If I was running the bike at the track, I would take the HP. If you disagree, Ill just agree to disagree.
I'm no engineer...but exact how much torque do you need on the bottom end...at what point is too much? It has enough torque right now to bust the rear tire loose at will in 1st, & 2nd gears from an easy roll on at slow speeds. I'm up into the 3500-4000 rpm range quicker than ever and it zips thru the lower rpm's in a blink of an eye. Bottom end lose :scratch: ...I'm not seeing it or feeling it in the seat of the bike.
If it had more bottom end torque...it would probably be a waste...it's not going to hook up any quicker with more bottom end torque...it's already spinning the tire if you twist on it...with the intent to launch it. Cruise it easy in town...and it's perfect with no hesitation or stumbling. I couldn't ask for more.
It's giving me more off the bottom right now over vs what the Zilla was offering if you were sitting on the bike and was able to feel the difference between the two.
The dyno graph might not show that...but trust me...it lacks nothing down low.
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2013, 02:50:06 PM
I posted this one in the dyno section for you Jason...critique away.
Not my style.
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 06, 2013, 05:57:04 AM
post your dyno sheet in the dyno section ,then we will be along shortly to tell you where you need improving
first suggestion ....662-2 cams then a good tune
Quote from: No Cents on January 24, 2013, 07:00:12 PM
:nix:
maybe try the 594's with the 1.625 rollers on the intakes and give it another whirl. My 594's seemed to carry out just fine.
No Cents
:wink:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,58020.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,58020.0.html)
But it seems to be others. Why would I critique? You have stated you are happy and the bike is exactly how you want it.
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2013, 02:35:17 PM
I have already sent my dyno sheet to Burns and asked them what would they have suggested to me if I had wanted more bottom end out of the pipe from the beginning.
I got their reply...and it would be done with smaller diameter tubing...and would come with the lose of some mid range and top end power...which is not even an option on this bike.
I would not change a thing to this pipe on my 124"er...it works with it perfectly. :wink:
you could also likely lengthen/modify the collector but I don't think you'd gain enough to make it worth the time and expense.
but then you are 8 up.... :nix:
If you're happy, I'm happy. I suppose the same question could be reversed. When does X amount of HP become too much? I'm not concerned about 1st, 2nd gear. I'm talking about the TQ in 6th gear. Setting at 2500 RPM or so cruising and just roll on I would prefer the extra torque. That's just my personal preference. Its not meant to take anything away from your build whatsoever. It turned out nice. I'm sure its strong everywhere, I don't need to be convinced. You can be proud of your build, you have no reason not to be.
I don't usually just roll on it in 6th gear easy...if I need to speed up for some reason...I drop a gear and go!
I guess I've never hesitated to down shift in certain situations...different riding styles I guess.
Yeah, just my preference for a street bike. Again, no shame whatsoever in your build. Anybody should be proud of that one. It looks good! :up:
YES!!! You got what you wanted and you ain't done "giggling" yet are you?? :bike: !!! This is a FINE long thread that is worth every miniute of readin....!! Thanks for all of it No Cents, and keep your thoughts commin.... At this stage - the "what if's" don't matter...
Paul
:up:
thanks Wicked...I appreciate it.
All of the sudden I get the feeling like I'm getting tag teamed up on for some reason :nix: maybe I'm over thinking this...but it just appears that way to me.
I've always tried to be truthful and post what I did with the outcome of my build being good or bad...with the hopes that someone else could learn with me as I go. :wink:
Quote from: Wicked on December 06, 2013, 03:47:58 PM
YES!!! You got what you wanted and you ain't done "giggling" yet are you?? :bike: !!! This is a FINE long thread that is worth every miniute of readin....!! Thanks for all of it No Cents, and keep your thoughts commin.... At this stage - the "what if's" don't matter...
Paul
+1 :agree:
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2013, 04:08:19 PM
:up:
thanks Wicked...I appreciate it.
All of the sudden I get the feeling like I'm getting tag teamed up on for some reason :nix: maybe I'm over thinking this...but it just appears that way to me.
I've always tried to be truthful and post what I did with the outcome of my build being good or bad...with the hopes that someone else could learn with me as I go. :wink:
You did good Ray, i'm honored that you let me hold the tool box keys :wink:
Ray it is a fine thread and I have read it several times since it began as I was also building a 124", now complete but not yet tuned. I have picked up a few important things along the way, thank you.
The only regret is now it is winter there and I particularly liked the ride reports of your 117" and was looking forward to similar postings from the 124' experience but now I need to wait for your spring to arrive for your enjoyment level reports.
You did a great job no doubt and should be rightly proud of your efforts.
:up:
thanks OzyMax...it dropped 4" of snow here today onto top of the freezing rain we got 1st...and it's still snowing. :sick:
Did I mention...I hate snow :hyst:
Good luck on your 124 build...I hope it turns out great for you!
Been out of pocket a bit but knew you'd have results posted and that they'd be good! Nice job and hats off to you and another great tune by Jim seals the deal. Good on ya!
Thank goodness Ray likes to change up things, guys like myself get to purchase his quality used parts at a very affordable price. :bike:
Quote from: bulldog on December 07, 2013, 05:55:17 AM
Thank goodness Ray likes to change up things, guys like myself get to purchase his quality used parts at a very affordable price. :bike:
:agree: :teeth: :chop:
you wanna rock up top loose the 2into1 pipe< try a $400.00 set of Cycle Shack M pipes
:up:
thanks for the suggestion...but I'm more than happy with this pipe.
It does everything I want it to...and more! :wink:
Quote from: speed limit on December 07, 2013, 08:38:45 AM
you wanna rock up top loose the 2into1 pipe< try a $400.00 set of Cycle Shack M pipes
Any comparison data? Curious to see that.
I would like to say this about what happened yesterday:
I unfortunately let a forum member on here get me pretty mad over a comment made. So I asked Coyote to lock down my threads before it got out of hand...which was selfish on my part and I apologize to everyone for doing that.
He was kind enough to open it back up so anyone that would like to...can continue posting in this thread.
I should not take offense with a response that a member posts...everyone has the right to post their thoughts and they are entitled to their opinion. I have to learn to take it with a grain of salt...if I do not agree.
I'm sorry to everyone for acting so hastily...and I will try to keep a cool domineer from now on.
Ray
:up: :beer:
Hey Ray with all that snow down there you will be able to have plenty to keep you Cool,I know you love it as much as I do!!! :hyst: :up:
"He was kind enough to open it back up"
Coyote a good guy.
Now get to work on that 126" Ray, and leave Coyote alone. :hyst:
Quote
......
Coyote a good guy.
.....
:scratch:
:hug:
126 :oops: now the cat is out of the bag ... :potstir:
Quote from: groundhog135 on December 08, 2013, 02:55:20 PM
126 :oops: now the cat is out of the bag ... :potstir:
126 :scratch: plus a couple more :hyst:
Hey I didn't say any thing to nobody! :nix:
Want to feel a little bit more seat of the pants .. Lose the belt , put a chain on it with some gearing ....xzo
Quote from: xzo124 on December 08, 2013, 04:04:47 PM
Want to feel a little bit more seat of the pants .. Lose the belt , put a chain on it with some gearing ....xzo
all the parts are sitting on the work bench for that exact fix :wink:
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on December 08, 2013, 03:57:09 PM
Hey I didn't say any thing to nobody! :nix:
:gob: shame on you Mike...who you been talking to? :hyst:
Is the thread title fixing to change? :pop:
Quote from: Durwood on December 08, 2013, 04:23:53 PM
Is the thread title fixing to change? :pop:
No Cents never ending adventure...I'll let the cat out of the bag :hyst:
Quote from: 06roadglide on December 08, 2013, 04:28:29 PM
Quote from: Durwood on December 08, 2013, 04:23:53 PM
Is the thread title fixing to change? :pop:
No Cents never ending adventure...I'll let the cat out of the bag :hyst:
Catchy, I like it..
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 08, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
HEY....wait just a minute!!!! :wtf:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 08, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
Come on Brian that ain't no fair :gob:
Quote from: Durwood on December 08, 2013, 04:58:34 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 08, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
Come on Brian that ain't no fair :gob:
+1 :cry:
Quote from: sfmichael on December 08, 2013, 05:03:03 PM
Quote from: Durwood on December 08, 2013, 04:58:34 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 08, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
Come on Brian that ain't no fair :gob:
+1 :cry:
:pop:
Quote from: Durwood on December 08, 2013, 04:58:34 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 08, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
"NO" plans on building anything this winter...but I might start a little new somethin somethin project in the spring. :wink:
I'm researching a few options for the idea's I got brewing right now. A mind is a terrible thing to waste :hyst:
You know...measure twice...cut once approach. :potstir:
We'll have to wait to see how they all pan out.
I got dibs on the 124 motor... >:D
Come on Brian that ain't no fair :gob:
but, but, but, Daren, I'd be selling the 117... :wink:
Ahhhhhhh :idea:
you guys are killing me :hyst: who said anything about selling the 124 :potstir:
I think YOU ARE ALL CRAZY!! GET a expermental 14?/15? ci and go for broke!! Stroke so long ya have to lower the cases in the frame to keep for sitting on the heads for a seat!!!! Ya can use MACK diesel pistons!! It'll be out next year or two!!!
Templer(CA)
damn Templer...your giving my project piston spec's away...it was suppose to be a secret :hyst:
oh...they coming out of a Peterbilt by the way :teeth:
PETERbuilt? Now it is VALVO!!
Templer(CA)
Forgot the 8 forward speed AUTOMATIC!!
Templer(CA)
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 06:49:41 PM
you guys are killing me :hyst: who said anything about selling the 124 :potstir:
just havin some fun Ray. :smiled:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 09, 2013, 02:30:03 AM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 06:49:41 PM
you guys are killing me :hyst: who said anything about selling the 124 :potstir:
just havin some fun Ray. :smiled:
:fish:
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
Quote from: xzo124 on December 08, 2013, 04:04:47 PM
Want to feel a little bit more seat of the pants .. Lose the belt , put a chain on it with some gearing ....xzo
all the parts are sitting on the work bench for that exact fix :wink:
:up: :up:
Speaking about going bigger, Is anyone out there running a 145"? :potstir:
Quote from: rob71458 on December 09, 2013, 06:29:16 AM
Speaking about going bigger, Is anyone out there running a 145"? :potstir:
We are working on the bigger CI ( two engines at this time ) with the new T2 cases. But at this moment there are some parts that are not ready yet. So looks to be first of the year to see the rest of the parts in production per say.
Cool. Will they fit in a stock frame?
Yep .. 131,135 and 139 and with a true one off a 145 that has already been done fits in a 09+ frame.. but that is another thread. :up:
I got a freind that is having 2 Boss Performance build him a B2 head 4 3/8 bore 135" motor with a set of S&S 4.500 stroke flywheels. All S&S parts with the new T2 cases...with the exception of CP pistons going in.
Rob Schoff (owner of 2 Boss Performance) has already built a couple of these 135's with the new T2 cases. Rob said it's a very smooth combination and produces tons of power and it will slide right into the 07-up frames with no mods required. 160-170 hp out of the box :dgust:
On Rob's facebook page there is a video of a 135"er running thats installed in an orange roadglide...it's a quit impressive engine.
Quote from: No Cents on December 09, 2013, 08:59:19 AM
I got a freind that is having 2 Boss Performance build him a B2 head 4 3/8 bore 135" motor with a set of S&S 4.500 stroke flywheels. All S&S parts with the new T2 cases...with the exception of CP pistons going in.
Rob Schoff (owner of 2 Boss Performance) has already built a couple of these 135's with the new T2 cases. Rob said it's a very smooth combination and produces tons of power and it will slide right into the 07-up frames with no mods required. 160-170 hp out of the box :dgust:
On Rob's facebook page there is a video of a 135"er running thats installed in an orange roadglide...it's a quit impressive engine.
Rob asked me to post up on this.. as this is incorrect and he wanted the record straight.
First off that bike ( the 135 CI ) is a 2005 bike not a 07+ , Secondly Rob has not built any engines on the new T2 case at this point and thirdly would never tell anyone that it made that kind of power.. The bike that did make the big power numbers had 2.300 valves and had a ton of cylinder head work in to it.... ( one off custom b2 heads not off the shelf by any means)
The parts ( cylinders and lifter blocks ) are due out maybe mid FEB.. Not to say that you cannot take current parts and machine the base of the cylinder build lifters blocks ( machine others) to get it done and have custom pistons made.. Rather pricey engine at this point. Even once done the engines are not kits. So all parts will be bought separate.
Ray nothing meant by the post please do not take it the wrong way. We along with a few other shops are all dealing with the new T2 set up. Just like the drilling jig or maybe you dont need it.. :wink: Once more parts are in production this set up will be a much more simpler deal . :up:
Below is pic of what current production parts would like like..
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/SampSt2vscylinder3_zps9d7e3b08.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/SampSt2vscylinder3_zps9d7e3b08.jpg.html)
I'm sure my friend has been talking to the same Rob Schoff as you...except he has been quoted the invoice price for his 135"er with a parts list.
Rob even told Randy that he could bring the engine to the Expo for him :scratch:
Hopefully Randy will see this and chime in with what Rob has told him and prices quoted to him.
On the 135" bike posted in the video on facebook...I guess he wrote the wrong year down in the tag. It clearly says 2009...135" engine done by Rob Schoff.
If you call S&S...three weeks ago the hold up was on the cylinders and lifter blocks...which as of last week we were told they are ready to go now and able to ship.
I personally haven't talked to Rob...but my friend tells no lies and I would have to believe him. I know he told me more on this...but I just didn't want to say anything.
Quote from: No Cents on December 09, 2013, 12:22:38 PM
I'm sure my friend has been talking to the same Rob Schoff as you...except he has been quoted the invoice price for his 135"er with a parts list.
Rob even told Randy that he could bring the engine to the Expo for him :scratch:
Hopefully Randy will see this and chime in with what Rob has told him and prices quoted to him.
On the 135" bike posted in the video on facebook...I guess he wrote the wrong year down in the tag. It clearly says 2009...135" engine done by Rob Schoff.
If you call S&S...three weeks ago the hold up was on the cylinders and lifter blocks...which as of last week we were told they are ready to go now and able to ship.
I personally haven't talked to Rob...but my friend tells no lies and I would have to believe him. I know he told me more on this...but I just didn't want to say anything.
Ray, these new S&S cases you are talking about, do they have to be machined to adapt to the OE trans?
maybe Steve can chime in on that...he says he has a few of the T2 cases already.
Dam how big we going to go? For the Street! :idunno:
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on December 09, 2013, 02:22:52 PM
Dam how big we going to go? For the Street! :idunno:
Sure seems like 124 would be enough - that's over 2000cc - bigger than many 4 cylinder car engines :nix:
Ray
Jeremy at S&S would love to speak to you and he will be happy to to answer any questions, concerning current product on hand and ETA of new product release. He is the product line manager for all of the S&S line products.
1-608-627-0317 (Dir)
As for what I am in process of building I already posted up what needs to be done on the case to work with a OEM trans.
That's what I was thinking but I :idunno: went with a 131 and started with a 88" see how that happens? I think my cases can go bigger and Thought about it but said NO!!!! :slap:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on December 09, 2013, 08:52:43 AM
Yep .. 131,135 and 139 and with a true one off a 145 that has already been done fits in a 09+ frame.. but that is another thread. :up:
Hi
Can you tell me rod lenght,flywheel diameter,bore and stroke.
Thanks John
Beginning to remind me of Partycrasher, remember that guy? IIRC he bought a brand new bagger a few years ago pulled the motor and sold it and had Hillside put a Jims 131" in it for a sleeper build.
Last I saw he had the 131" up for sale in the Swap meet section some time ago, Christ only knows what he's running now,lol.
Mike
Quote from: John/1 on December 09, 2013, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on December 09, 2013, 08:52:43 AM
Yep .. 131,135 and 139 and with a true one off a 145 that has already been done fits in a 09+ frame.. but that is another thread. :up:
Hi
Can you tell me rod lenght,flywheel diameter,bore and stroke.
Thanks John
What's the info on the 135 and 139"
Stroke, bore etc, like john asked.
Are these T2 cases the same as the SA cases for 99-06 but now fitting in the newer bikes?
135"= 4 3/8" bore with a 4.500 stroke flywheel
139"= 4 3/8" bore with a 4 5/8 stroke flywheel
the new S&S T2 cases are for 07-up touring models and come in two different bore sizes 4.125, and 4.375 IIRC
they are clearanced for up to 4 13/16" stroke and .720 lift cams. they also come with a Timkens set up and cylinder studs installed.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: sfmichael on December 09, 2013, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on December 09, 2013, 02:22:52 PM
Dam how big we going to go? For the Street! :idunno:
Sure seems like 124 would be enough - that's over 2000cc - bigger than many 4 cylinder car engines :nix:
They can certainly be a handful, set up properly. :up:
Scott
Quote from: No Cents on December 09, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
135"= 4 3/8" bore with a 4.500 stroke flywheel
139"= 4 3/8" bore with a 4 5/8 stroke flywheel
the new S&S T2 cases are for 07-up touring models and come in two different bore sizes 4.125, and 4.375 IIRC
they are clearanced for up to 4 13/16" stroke and .720 lift cams. they also come with a Timkens set up and cylinder studs installed.
Hi
I would like to know rod length and flywheel diameter.If these motors fit in stock frames they must have piston with no skirts?I would think you would need a minimum,8 in. Rod.
John...my new 3 piece S&S 4 5/8" flywheels have a larger 1.671" crankpin and it uses 7.659" length rods. I don't know exactly how big in diameter the wheels are.
John...I'll try to copy/paste a picture of the S&S 4.125 bore flat top pistons
https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/24108.jpg (https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/24108.jpg)
here is a picture of a set of S&S 4 3/8 bore pistons
https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg (https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg)
Quote from: No Cents on December 10, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
here is a picture of a set of S&S 4 3/8 bore pistons
https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg (https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg)
Ray
Did you notice wrist pin location in oil ring groove?
John
yes...mine had it on the 4.125 bore for the 124.
Quote from: No Cents on December 10, 2013, 04:59:27 PM
yes...mine had it on the 4.125 bore for the 124.
I took my motor apart seems to me I don't have enough piston skirt,there was some a little piston scuffing,motor does not have many miles.I was wondering if something like that could help me.4.25 bore with 7.69 rods and 4.625 stroke with 8.25 flywheels
John
Maybe I could go to 8.inch rods but would have to raise backbone
I just went back to S&S's web site...looking at their new 3 piece flywheels because I thought I read at the bottom that they have what is called "special order"...which I'm taking it as flywheels custom made to your spec's.
It states to call them on the web site.
My motor is a evo merch 131
Quote from: John/1 on December 10, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 10, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
here is a picture of a set of S&S 4 3/8 bore pistons
https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg (https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg)
Ray
Did you notice wrist pin location in oil ring groove?
John
Stroker pistons have been doing that for years. A 8 inch rod can cause some problems with TDC dwell and best rod to crank angle. More need to be thought about besides just raising a back bone. That's pretty easy compared to what else need to be thinked about and planed.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 10, 2013, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: John/1 on December 10, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 10, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
here is a picture of a set of S&S 4 3/8 bore pistons
https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg (https://www.sscycle.com/product/secure/images/products/26128.jpg)
Ray
Did you notice wrist pin location in oil ring groove?
John
Stroker pistons have been doing that for years. A 8 inch rod can cause some problems with TDC dwell and best rod to crank angle. More need to be thought about besides just raising a back bone. That's pretty easy compared to what else need to be thinked about and planed.
I do realize 8 in rods will require new rods,barrels,piston,intake manifold,pushrods,tubes,and I will have to fabricate or modify my exhaust pipe
I was just mentioning it.
Several things can cause piston scuffing. I've taken apart some really good running engines that had scuffed pistons. If the leak-down is acceptable and she runs good, I say let 'er buck.
Wonder if I have room for .250" to squeeze a 139" :) and a bit more compression and head work.
Quote from: sfmichael on December 10, 2013, 07:10:10 PM
Several things can cause piston scuffing. I've taken apart some really good running engines that had scuffed pistons. If the leak-down is acceptable and she runs good, I say let 'er buck.
Hi
I'm thinking same thing ran real good no loss in compression,consumes no oil.Piston maybe a little heavier above wrist pin,skirts aren't very long and ring pack has been lower 115 thousand.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on December 09, 2013, 06:50:46 AM
Quote from: rob71458 on December 09, 2013, 06:29:16 AM
Speaking about going bigger, Is anyone out there running a 145"? :potstir:
We are working on the bigger CI ( two engines at this time ) with the new T2 cases. But at this moment there are some parts that are not ready yet. So looks to be first of the year to see the rest of the parts in production per say.
Steve,
How many sets of the cases do you have? Rumor had they will support a 139 or 145 any validity to that? Will we be able to go larger than 70 mm the Jim's gave me a fit with the HPI 62/62
unbalanced,.. feel free to contact us directly on the T2 cases & builds thank you.
Steve I am really tied up with work heading cross country could you post a picture of the cases specifically the bore area and pistons squirters.
I will follow up with you after that when I get back early next week.
Thanks Buddy
Time to sell that 124 Ray and run with the big dogs 135!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I want to race it on the strip eventually in the bagger class...I have stay a 124.
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 09:19:21 AM
If I want to race it on the strip eventually in the bagger class...I have stay a 124.
Ray, they do allow overbore to 127"
:emoGroan: Bigger is always better Ray. I will reveal my build this spring :scratch:
:up:
Thanks...I knew that Darren. I don't plan on going to that big of an over bore on the 1st time it needs a little freshening up. I'd hope to get a year or so out of this engine before it needs any boring done.
Hollywood...I do have plans of building another engine someday...I promise it will be a little bigger than a 124"er :wink:
Hyperformance 222" Street Pro Motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ciCdrEWYE#)
Something to shoot for Ray.
nothing like that...just something out of the T2 cases will be fine for my final engine build. I'm thinking of going with a big bore low compression cross country cruiser.
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 12:01:11 PM
nothing like that...just something out of the T2 cases will be fine for my final engine build. I'm thinking of going with a big bore low compression cross country cruiser.
:scratch: I thought 11.2 was low compression :hyst:
By then you'll be looking for a shark nose. Jim might not let it on his drums. :dgust:
Quote from: kd on December 13, 2013, 12:11:28 PM
By then you'll be looking for a shark nose. Jim might not let it on his drums. :dgust:
Yeah he will, I broke him of that a couple years ago, I think he's beginning to actually like a Road glide, but he'd never admit it in front of his batty friends.. :potstir:
Quote from: Durwood on December 13, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 12:01:11 PM
nothing like that...just something out of the T2 cases will be fine for my final engine build. I'm thinking of going with a big bore low compression cross country cruiser.
:scratch: I thought 11.2 was low compression :hyst:
:nix: mines at 11.10:1...and I think it's definitely not high :missed:
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Durwood on December 13, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 12:01:11 PM
nothing like that...just something out of the T2 cases will be fine for my final engine build. I'm thinking of going with a big bore low compression cross country cruiser.
:scratch: I thought 11.2 was low compression :hyst:
:nix: mines at 11.10:1...and I think it's definitely not high :missed:
My point exactly, I thought you were kidding, and actually talking about adding those pistons you have...my bad.
Carry on.
those pistons will set it at 11.86:1.
I'll definitely have to run the CR650 cams or the S&S 640's when I do the compression bump to keep the ccp's down around the 205 area.
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 01:27:10 PM
those pistons will set it at 11.86:1.
I'll definitely have to run the CR650 cams or the S&S 640's when I do the compression bump to keep the ccp's down around the 205 area.
:teeth: ....... :hyst:
:dgust: are you hinting the time is here :hyst:
Since it's on the rack for the chain conversion...
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2013, 04:24:16 PM
:dgust: are you hinting the time is here :hyst:
no ... but "when I do " sounds definite......its going to be a long winter around that barn. :unsure:
It's been too cold for me after working all day outside in the snow and freezing temperatures to go out into the barn and do any wrenching. I guess I'm getting too old or lazy to have the desire to fire up the torpedo heater and grin and bear it inside the barn. The bike actually hasn't even made it up onto the lift yet to do the chain conversion and put the fresh rubber on it.
I'm trying to hold off for as long as I can and not even go out into the barn and look at it.
I know it's going to be a long winter...so I'm trying to pace myself :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on December 14, 2013, 02:35:06 AM
It's been too cold for me after working all day outside in the snow and freezing temperatures to go out into the barn and do any wrenching. I guess I'm getting too old or lazy to have the desire to fire up the torpedo heater and grin and bear it inside the barn. The bike actually hasn't even made it up onto the lift yet to do the chain conversion and put the fresh rubber on it.
I'm trying to hold off for as long as I can and not even go out into the barn and look at it.
I know it's going to be a long winter...so I'm trying to pace myself :hyst:
I hear that Ray. I have an total repaint to do on mine. Tired of black, frame is showing it's age, not to mention, it fell over a couple months ago and scratched the Hell out of it.
did you get a chance to ride it after Jim tuned it up?
I bet it sure feels different :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on December 15, 2013, 06:16:19 AM
did you get a chance to ride it after Jim tuned it up?
I bet it sure feels different :wink:
Heading to Jims right now to get it. :teeth:
Ok I am building a nasty bagger and have ordered air ride No Cents(Ray) says they ride like "Potty mouth" is this true?
Quote from: Hollywood on December 16, 2013, 05:39:04 PM
Ok I am building a nasty bagger and have ordered air ride No Cents(Ray) says they ride like "Potty mouth" is this true?
yep. but they have cool factor. all in what your gonna do with it.
Quote from: Durwood on December 13, 2013, 12:16:08 PM
Quote from: kd on December 13, 2013, 12:11:28 PM
By then you'll be looking for a shark nose. Jim might not let it on his drums. :dgust:
Yeah he will, I broke him of that a couple years ago, I think he's beginning to actually like a Road glide, but he'd never admit it in front of his batty friends.. :potstir:
He is a closet shark noser lol You might have to give him an intervention Durwood. lol
Its a 2013 Road GLide 26' clear front rim with step lip, air ride front and back, stretched bags with 10' subwoofers in bags. Motor is going to be 135'er!!! There will be other additions along the way
:wtf: That bike is gonna be huge!!
Quote from: Hollywood on December 17, 2013, 07:26:39 AM
Its a 2013 Road GLide 26' clear front rim with step lip, air ride front and back, stretched bags with 10' subwoofers in bags. Motor is going to be 135'er!!! There will be other additions along the way
MFer... No Cents is gonna have some penis envy! :pop:
Quote from: laserp on December 17, 2013, 02:59:45 PM
Quote from: Hollywood on December 17, 2013, 07:26:39 AM
Its a 2013 Road GLide 26' clear front rim with step lip, air ride front and back, stretched bags with 10' subwoofers in bags. Motor is going to be 135'er!!! There will be other additions along the way
MFer... No Cents is gonna have some penis envy! :pop:
:doh: :slap: :hyst:
I pretty sure Josh (Hollywood) meant 26" rim & 10" subwoofers...he always thinks BIG. He just lives down the road from me and is definitely a lady's man :wink:
A big clear 26" wheel and those 10" subwoofers with a thumpin 135"er will make it a little hard to sneak in after he closes the bar on bike night :potstir:
:hyst:
I think we all knew what he meant. Weez just havin some with it.
Welcome Josh! Start you a thread with progress pics of your bike. We'd like to see some pics.
Quote from: 06roadglide on December 17, 2013, 03:33:10 PM
:hyst:
I think we all knew what he meant. Weez just havin some with it.
Welcome Josh! Start you a thread with progress pics of your bike. We'd like to see some pics.
:agree: A nice winter project. With Mr. Cents (No, to his close friends) right down the street, he's got a high water mark to hit. :pop:
I told Hollywood yesterday :gob: them there 135"er's better watch out...there might be a little 124"er lurking around the corner with some added compression and horsepower very soon...just waiting to pounce on them :potstir:
I just gotta find out where the hell Durwood hid them damn tool box keys at first :hyst:
Now you guys see what I'm up against. Like it wasn't going to be bad enough to have one 135"er within a mile of my house...now two of them are in the works. :banghead:
They are ganging up on me :dgust: now there goes the neighborhood :smilep:
But it's all good...we assemble the posse together quit often to do some riding...and we have some serious fun when we do it.
It's going to be a looooong winter
After this winter crap subsides, I want you to feel what a fourth gear rev limit feels like. And you can't just creep up on it. Wick it and smile. But only if your are comfortable with that.
I didn't get much seat time in it Jay before the weather got bad here. I did bounce it off the rev limiter a couple times thru the first few gears...and I have to say without a doubt it is the strongest the bike has ever ran to date. I quickly ran out of road each time before I was able to try 4th gear. I know by the time I was in third and it finally hooked up good...I was flying down the road.
I'm pretty much positive my saving grace on it was the worn out rear tire. If this thing was to hook up quicker...it would have the front tire pointing towards the sky. Today was my last day of work until after the New Year. I'm going to roll the bike up on the lift tomorrow and start doing the chain conversion and have the new tires mounted so it's ready to go in the spring.
I'm already dreaming of warm weather...and I know we got a good three months of winter left ahead of us.
Quote from: jam65 on December 17, 2013, 07:09:43 PM
After this winter crap subsides, I want you to feel what a fourth gear rev limit feels like. And you can't just creep up on it. Wick it and smile. But only if your are comfortable with that.
April 26-27 Bowling Green KY
July 26-27 Xenia OH.... :potstir:
Gordon
Martin MI ......Aug 23-24 :fish:
This would only be a test to see if you think you need to go bigger. I am sure you will be happy with what you have at this point.
And as Jim suggested, we should meet at the strip to have some fun. I would be the odd one out though with no bags. Nothing better than having a 1/4 mile slip on paper to prove your money and effort.
Edgewater Dragway is 10 miles from my house. I hope to do a little test and tuning before I go to Xenia next year.
practice practice practice
Looking forward to those dates stroker,good times.. :beer:
Quote from: groundhog135 on December 17, 2013, 08:20:46 PM
Looking forward to those dates stroker,good times.. :beer:
yes it was :beer: :beer:
I will definitely start a thread and get pictures up of the build. The clear rim from Mad Wheels should be here in the next 6 weeks along with the front end parts so the fun will begin then. I wanted a 145'er in the beginning but heard they wont fit in the stock frame(That way Mr. Cents would have no chance at keeping up :hyst:) so i guess the 135 will work!!!! :wink:
Last year we had to beg Mr. Cents to give that hog some gas and see what it could do :pop: After giving him crap for a full day he finally gave in and wow!!! it broke back tire with ease :bike:
That's cause I'm just :scoot: along :hyst:
Between you and Randy ragging on me for babying it...I seemed to always cave in and would have to let it chew a few times for you two.
When you guys get them 135"ers in...it will be my turn to do a little ragging :smilep:
:hyst:You wont have to haggle me too bad you know me i drive everything i have like i stole it
I've been sitting in the emergency ward all morning with the wifeeepooh.
I think she had a heart attack.
I drove that F-450 to the hospital like I stole it :angry:
Quote from: No Cents on December 18, 2013, 08:18:18 AM
I've been sitting in the emergency ward all morning with the wifeeepooh.
I think she had a heart attack.
I drove that F-450 to the hospital like I stole it :angry:
Oh "Potty mouth" Ray! Sorry to hear about that. I hope she recovers ok.
Prayers will be sent her way.
Damn, hope she's ok!
Easier to put a bigger motor in a bike than to replace a wife who lets you keep spending bucks on upgrades!
(btw - have enjoyed every minute of the way on this thread!)
:up:
Thanks
They have her stable and breathing on her own. They are doing all kinds of tests.
The poor woman just battled the shingles a few months ago...now this happens :doh:
Quote from: No Cents on December 18, 2013, 08:58:37 AM
:up:
Thanks
They have her stable and breathing on her own. They are doing all kinds of tests.
The poor woman just battled the shingles a few months ago...now this happens :doh:
Prayers sent your way buddy, Any update on her condition?
We both got home a few hours ago. Tests showed her heart was beating irregularly and her blood pressure had shot thru the roof. They wrenched on her for a couple of hours and then gave her some kind of miracle drug that got her heart beating on path again. Once it was beating properly...within 3 hours her blood pressure was back to normal. Blood and piss tests turned out fine.
They gave her some prescriptions and a pat on the butt...and sent her home :nix: she's been asleep on the couch every since we got home.
This woman is making me a nervous wreck :doh:
and the bump parts
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hope the wife recovers well Ray and you can relax a little.
those parts are no good in your shed, just send the slugs to me would do just fine :teeth: wish I had a set similar to them
Ray very glad your wife is home and doing better.
Wonder if she maybe has been reading this thread while your at work, and mention of a 131" made her heart shift into overdrive. :teeth:
Great to hear of her recovery. Keep a close eye on her. God Bless.
John
Glad to hear your wife is doing better and is home.
Hope all stays well.
Sorry to hear about the better half,hopes she is fine,Keep the motor work on the low down things will get better the less she knows,If you need anything let us know!
Quote from: No Cents on December 18, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
We both got home a few hours ago. Tests showed her heart was beating irregularly and her blood pressure had shot thru the roof. They wrenched on her for a couple of hours and then gave her some kind of miracle drug that got her heart beating on path again. Once it was beating properly...within 3 hours her blood pressure was back to normal. Blood and piss tests turned out fine.
They gave her some prescriptions and a pat on the butt...and sent her home :nix: she's been asleep on the couch every since we got home.
This woman is making me a nervous wreck :doh:
Best update in this whole thread ray !
Now about that pat on the butt... You gotta watch those emergency room doc's. :wink:
Prayers for a speedy recovery
Great news Ray! :hug:
:up:
thanks for all the kind words men...I truly appreciate it!
She is awake now and she said "it feels like a train just ran over me". I made her something to eat and she didn't do too bad on eating a little something.
She is having me take her to the family saw bones in the morning so she can get a second opinion on the matter. She is not liking what the hospital did today by releasing her so soon. I told her that this is the new wave of health care. They will put a band aid on it and get you out the door as quickly as possible so the next person can come in. She is still having some trouble breathing right...because of the pain in her chest. Thank God I'm on vacation until next year...that way I'll be able to keep a close eye on her.
Thanks again for caring!
Ray
:hug:
Glad to hear she is well .while I am no Doctor my son had similar symptoms At a very young age . And after many emergency room visits and many specialist he was diagnosed with SVT or super ventricular tachachordia. Not saying that is her issue but may be something she may want to ask about .
Good luck with whatever they find out.
I hope all goes well with your wife
:up:
thanks for the kind words from everyone!
The wife is up today and moving around...so I decided to take a stroll out into the barn and start the chain conversion.
I wanted to post a few pictures of the CompensaVer that I put in back when I built this 124 engine.
I ran Amsoil Super Shift ATF in the primary the whole time.
Pictures clearly speak for them self...this fixed my SE comp woes!!!
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and one more
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Snap a pic of the other side
here you go Jim
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here is a shot of my Hayden BT07 primary tensioner...with a little over 8,000 miles on it. It does a great job taking the banjo tightness out of the primary chain.
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Looks decent for ATF. I'm still not a fan of the stuff in this app but hell, it's doing it's job . Comparible to Brians ATF comp he recently posted. Pic shows the importance of matching the cam and spokes with an index mark if some R&R's are done. See that one at 10 oclock with a different contact patch compared to the other two?
Ron
Quote from: No Cents on December 19, 2013, 03:17:49 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 19, 2013, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 19, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
here you go Jim
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how many miles ray ?
4K on that one.
looks like mine did at 900 miles with ATF . (no compusaver) . scared me into running formula +
if you can keep it looking like that for 20-30,000 more miles, I guess your good :up:
thanks for testing all the stuff you do :beer:
:up: no problem Jim.
I made a little progress on the chain conversion today. I have the primary stripped and the front tranny pulley already mounted on it. I called it quits for the day.
I'm going to take the wheel tomorrow and have the new tire mounted. I hope I'll able to get it under the fender to see if I need a spacer for the rear sprocket. If all goes well I should have it done by Saturday...but I got a feeling I'm going to have to order a rear sprocket spacer.
Ray, which PBI front sprocket you end up installing ?
24 tooth 1/2" offset
Quote from: rbabos on December 19, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
Looks decent for ATF. I'm still not a fan of the stuff in this app but hell, it's doing it's job . Comparible to Brians ATF comp he recently posted. Pic shows the importance of matching the cam and spokes with an index mark if some R&R's are done. See that one at 10 oclock with a different contact patch compared to the other two?
Ron
Ron I think it is the light playing tricks on the picture. It was a blazing 54* outside so I opened the garage door up to snap the shot.
I'll take a better one tomorrow laying flat. All three contact patches look to be very close as to being the same.
This was my 3rd SE comp...and the 1st one to be ran with the CompensaVer. I did buy a new SE comp kit when I installed the CompensaVer.
The 4K miles on this comp are all on this 124 engine. I'm very pleased with what I saw when I pulled it apart today. My other two comps were just about junk by 4K. This one looks like it has a lot of life left in it. :up:
Quote from: No Cents on December 19, 2013, 06:26:59 PM
24 tooth 1/2" offset
I'll take a stab at it, probably need a .065 spacer for the rear sprocket. :teeth
this should have read .125 not .065
are you telling me this from experience John...or an educated guess?
While I'm out running this morning getting the tire mounted...I'll see if I can find a spacer that size.
Thanks
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 19, 2013, 06:43:52 PM
It was a blazing 54* outside so I opened the garage door up to snap the shot.
[/quote]
:up: :up: Love the warmer weather but at the same time it's killing me.
I have a bike that's itching to be rode with the new tune and new wheels on my car that is put away for the winter also. :banghead:
Quote from: No Cents on December 19, 2013, 06:43:52 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 19, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
Looks decent for ATF. I'm still not a fan of the stuff in this app but hell, it's doing it's job . Comparible to Brians ATF comp he recently posted. Pic shows the importance of matching the cam and spokes with an index mark if some R&R's are done. See that one at 10 oclock with a different contact patch compared to the other two?
Ron
Ron I think it is the light playing tricks on the picture. It was a blazing 54* outside so I opened the garage door up to snap the shot.
I'll take a better one tomorrow laying flat. All three contact patches look to be very close as to being the same.
This was my 3rd SE comp...and the 1st one to be ran with the CompensaVer. I did buy a new SE comp kit when I installed the CompensaVer.
The 4K miles on this comp are all on this 124 engine. I'm very pleased with what I saw when I pulled it apart today. My other two comps were just about junk by 4K. This one looks like it has a lot of life left in it. :up:
Understand the camera thing. I have that problem all the time. :banghead:
Still a good idea to index the cam/sprocket so the same contact points remain otherwise there is excess wear on the install until the parts remate again. The bore gets exposed to this off center loading in the form of sprocket wobble. Stupid as it sounds, comps need a break in period to where all 3 points even themselves out then the wear drops off.
Ron
If you can't find one local, check Amazon. I needed a .0625 for my 180 conversion on my '07. This is the one I got.
http://www.amazon.com/BKrider-Sprocket-Pulley-Spacer-Harley-Davidson/dp/B007KPW6JQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387563004&sr=8-1&keywords=harley+pulley+spacer (http://www.amazon.com/BKrider-Sprocket-Pulley-Spacer-Harley-Davidson/dp/B007KPW6JQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387563004&sr=8-1&keywords=harley+pulley+spacer)
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on December 20, 2013, 03:55:55 AM
are you telling me this from experience John...or an educated guess?
While I'm out running this morning getting the tire mounted...I'll see if I can find a spacer that size.
Thanks
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 20, 2013, 03:55:55 AM
are you telling me this from experience John...or an educated guess?
While I'm out running this morning getting the tire mounted...I'll see if I can find a spacer that size.
Thanks
Ray
OK correction and how I came about it, your bike and mine 5spd to your 6spd, they did not change the rear wheel spacing or pulley location. so location of front pulley are the same for both, I used a .625 spacer on my bike with 1.060 offset, and you use a .500 front sprocket. so reduce the .500 from .625 and should get .125 I did use a 07 pulley side spacer. which is no different from 02 on up.
Zack, did you use a 1.060 offset for the 180 clearance ?
Not sure where I ended up on total spacing. I'd have to check all my notes at home. The rear hub on my wheel is not a stock length. I worked with the wheel builder to minimize the need for spacers etc. I'm still mocking things up on the back, but bought that spacer based on some quick math. I may not need it. It was cheap enough to have on hand though.
Zach
I got the tire mounted on the rim and did a mock up to see what size spacer I would need. The 160/60-18 tire spun freely in the fender...which made me happy.
I clamped a straight edge to the rear sprocket and measured the distance at the tranny sprocket...it said I needed a .650 spacer for the rear sprocket. :dgust:
So I called my friend Don that owns an indy shop (Don's Custom Cycle...aka Sucker Punch Sally until he sold that trademark name) to see if he had any spacers. He said he had a 1/2" spacer for the late models and a 3/4" for early models He told me to come on over and get it...and give it a try. So with the 1/2" spacer on the wheel and mocked up again...it was still .150 out. :doh:
I took back his 1/2" spacer and he had to order me a .750 spacer. He will chuck it up in the lathe and turn .100 off it when it comes in.
It should be here Monday.
Wow, I was not even close :emoGroan: I'll just stay quiet now :slap:
Quote from: JohnCA58 on December 20, 2013, 06:24:46 PM
Wow, I was not even close :emoGroan: I'll just stay quiet now :slap:
No...I appreciate you trying to help John. :up:
I'm running a set of aftermarket Southern Motorcycle Works wheels. On my belt system...they also made me a matching rear pulley. The belt of course ran true on the rear pulley...but rode on the very inside of the Andrews 30 tooth tranny gear. My guess is their hub measurement on the sprocket side is what makes me need the size spacer I do.
With the PBI .500 offset tranny gear...it looks like it will push the chain out a touch further than the belt was...so that's my guess for the extra spacing needed in the rear.
I put a key way on each side of my swing arm for more adjustment. I copied this idea from Tattoo. They work nice.
It might be hard to see...I painted them black to match the swing arm.
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Haven't checked on this thread for a few days. Ray hoping the wife is doing well and making a full recovery. Sending prayers your way. :rose:
How is the key way held in place?
Small roll pin
1st off...the wifeeepooh seems to be feeling a lot better today. She said to tell everyone a big thanks for including her in your prayers. :up:
The key way is held in place with a .062 roll pin. I used a .059 drill bit to drill thru the key way in the vise. Then I clamped it into place on the swing arm and drilled thru the key way hole into the swing arm.
Here is a picture of the 160/60-18 tire sitting under the fender. It fills it out nicely.
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That's a good way to do that. I welded mine. With the thought of a 100 grit roll lock would remove it easily without any holes to the swingarm.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/22/qygyqasa.jpg)
:up:
nice bead!
Here is a little closer picture with some added light on it. I didn't drill all the way thru the frame...only about 3/8" deep into it. I bottomed the roll pin into the hole...and broke the rest off.
It's on pretty tight with the roll pin. I couldn't pull it back off by hand.
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I like that better than trying to spot weld! :up:
excellent idea :up: going to do that for switching from 51t sprocket to 49t. don't have to change a link on the chain.
One reason I used the roll pin was so if I went back to belt i could easily remove the keys.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m18/tattoo66/1452182_584581194922373_245666573_n_zps5eee904d.jpg) (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/tattoo66/media/1452182_584581194922373_245666573_n_zps5eee904d.jpg.html)
I've got two different size sprockets...a 58 tooth for a 3.270 ratio...and a 56 tooth for a 3.157 ratio. I was running the 3.15 ratio with the belt.
My thinking was to set it up with the bigger 58 tooth sprocket with the axle forward...then put the chain on it to see where I will have to cut it to put the master link in. If I wanted to go with the smaller sprocket...I'm hoping I will have plenty of adjustment.
Ron...I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the sprocket laying flat I promised you.
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Quote from: No Cents on December 21, 2013, 05:33:00 PM
Ron...I almost forgot. Here is a picture of the sprocket laying flat I promised you.
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Look's good Ray :up:
Here is my previous SE comp sprocket. It had 3,812 miles on it and was making all kinds of noise.
Both were ran with Amsoil Super Shift ATF. There is no comparison in the two...plus my current on has more miles on it.
The CompensaVer is doing it's job!
Here is a couple of pic's of the old SE comp sprocket.
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one more laying flat
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Quote from: No Cents on December 21, 2013, 02:56:44 PM
Here is a little closer picture with some added light on it. I didn't drill all the way thru the frame...only about 3/8" deep into it. I bottomed the roll pin into the hole...and broke the rest off.
It's on pretty tight with the roll pin. I couldn't pull it back off by hand.
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why not put one more roll pin in?
nice work Ray :beer:
Jim...my swing arm was actually recessed (notched) there where the key way sits. I cut the key way down to length to fit into the recessed groove. One roll pin should hold it in place while it has no axle cam tension on it. When the cam is up against it...it's not going anywhere.
The roll pin is just there to hold them in place...so they don't fall off while it doesn't have any cam tension up against it.
got ya.. :up:
here is how I figured out what size rear sprocket spacer I would need.
I clamped a straight edge to the outside of the rear sprocket with the rear axle on the cam tensioners so it's straight in the swing arm...then I measure off the outside of the tranny sprocket to the outside edge of my straight edge.
This should put both sprockets on the same outside straight parallel plain and the chain run true...if I'm thinking correctly.
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Ray I bought a Laser alignment tool from E-Bay that I used after the chain and sprockets were installed.
I've got a laser...but I couldn't get it exactly where I wanted it beings they were so far out.
I was going to try to shoot the laser down off the rear sprocket center once I have the spacer on...and see how it hits the front sprocket.
Fishing line will get you as close as you need to be. String it on the outside face of the sprockets hook it on the teeth and check with a feeler gauge in four points. Once they are straight measure the thickness of both sprockets and adjust for your center line.
This will also check the alignment of the rear axle to the trans shaft.
Added:
Remember to start the line parallel to the trans sprocket and do the adjusting with the wheel sprocket.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 22, 2013, 06:21:17 AM
Fishing line will get you as close as you need to be. String it on the outside face of the sprockets hook it on the teeth and check with a feeler gauge in four points. Once they are straight measure the thickness of both sprockets and adjust for your center line.
This will also check the alignment of the rear axle to the trans shaft.
Agree about the string. :up:
I've taken to using piano wire, strong, and can be clamped to items without fear of cutting it.
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 22, 2013, 06:24:21 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 22, 2013, 06:21:17 AM
Fishing line will get you as close as you need to be. String it on the outside face of the sprockets hook it on the teeth and check with a feeler gauge in four points. Once they are straight measure the thickness of both sprockets and adjust for your center line.
This will also check the alignment of the rear axle to the trans shaft.
Agree about the string. :up:
I've taken to using piano wire, strong, and can be clamped to items without fear of cutting it.
Fine wire is great to. I do not recommend string, fishing line is fine and strong and you can get it at any Walmart at midnight on Sunday if that is when you need it.
I tried the fishing line string trick. I put it on the tranny sprocket around a tooth toward the front of the bike and placed a clamp on the back. I pulled the line tight and made sure it was flush across the face of the tranny sprocket. I measured from the line back to the rear sprocket close to a bolt. I got .670 that way. :doh:
Now I'm confused.
I didn't take the straight edge off and I got .650 re-measuring that way again.
Quote from: No Cents on December 22, 2013, 08:08:40 AM
I tried the fishing line string trick. I put it on the tranny sprocket around a tooth toward the front of the bike and placed a clamp on the back. I pulled the line tight and made sure it was flush across the face of the tranny sprocket. I measured from the line back to the rear sprocket close to a bolt. I got .670 that way. :doh:
Now I'm confused.
I didn't take the straight edge off and I got .650 re-measuring that way again.
Ray, is the straight edge actually straight? Check it with string pulled tight along it's length.
I made progress. Randy (groundhog135) came over and we made different size spacers out of pvc tubing and bolted it all together. We measured the chain and only had to remove one link. We tried 3 different size pvc spacers...and for some reason the .750 spacer looks the best on the bike when rolling the wheel and watching the chain from the rear. We pulled fishing line, did straight edges...the works.
I'm going to bolt the .750 spacer on when it comes tomorrow and see how that looks then.
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Looks awesome, LOL never would have thought you be using .750 :up:
Ray are both sprockets the same thickness where the chain runs.
I just measured them...no they are not. The tranny sprocket is .350 where the chain sits down in between the teeth and tapers out a little after that...and the rear sprocket is .315 thick, and it is flat.
What I'm going to try in the morning is pull some more fishing line straight down the center of the tranny sprockets teeth and stretch it tight to the back. Then I'll measure off that center line to the outside of the rear sprocket...then add half of the rear sprockets thickness (.1575) to that measurement...and that should be the spacer size I will need. That should put both sprockets with the center line right in the middle of them.
It sure sounds good in my head...at least :hyst:
I would stay on the outside of the sprocket and use math to adjust the center for thickness.
Get the outside aligned as 1FRSTRK suggests, then subtract 0.018" from the sprocket spacer thickness the alignment suggests.
After you have the wheel straight make sure the axle is torqued before you make the final measurement between the rear sprocket and the line. I noticed that everything shifts and self centers as the axle flexes the swingarm when tightened.
I couldn't take it any longer...it was bugging the hell out of me. So back out to the barn I went. The axle is torqued and the weight of the bike back down on the tire.
This time I served a line down the center of the tranny sprocket teeth and pulled it tight to the rear. I measured from the line at both ends of the rear sprocket and in the middle near the bolts...all measurements were .596 from the string to the sprocket face in each location.
So if I add 1/2 the thickness of my rear sprocket .1575 + .596= 7.535 ...it looks like I come up with a .750 spacer again.
Close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades :hyst:
Enough already put the dam thing back together and quit :banghead:
okay :embarrassed:
:up: thanks for coming over an lending an extra set of eyes!
Quote from: No Cents on December 22, 2013, 01:11:11 PM
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Ray- that is an awesome picture! EK chain, correct?
Yes...EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain
As I posted a while ago, most of us run this exact chain. Most bikes north of 100/100 as well. I put approx 16k very hard miles on mine with 4 adjustments. I am anal on keeping mine clean and use PJ-1 blue label wax. I think you will really like that set up.
My buddy Don said the big brown truck was a no show today with the spacer :emoGroan: maybe tomorrow :nix:
Big Brown truck has been working overtime..... last night the door bell rang at 9:10 p.m. it was Big Brown truck delivery. :smileo:
well...the spacer came today. I thought I was going to be able to finally start putting it together. I put the spacer and sprocket on the wheel and loctited the flange bolts and torqued them down to 65' pds.
I got the wheel up under the fender and went to slide my axle in with the spacer...and said :oops: the axle spacer won't fit thru the hub spacer to ride up against the wheel bearing.
Now I have to go have the spacer center hole opened up on the lathe so my spacer will go thru it :doh:
I'll have to take it back to Don's and have him put it on his lathe. The axle spacer is 1.500 wide...so I'll have him open the hole in the hub spacer to at least 1.750...so I'll have plenty of clearance instead of the 1.600 I wrote on the spacer.
It looks like everything is on hold now until Thursday.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
FYI, this where I got my spacer .
http://vulcanworks.net/Harley-2000-UP-Pulley-Spacers-p-369.html (http://vulcanworks.net/Harley-2000-UP-Pulley-Spacers-p-369.html)
Ray it is winter and there is no hurry here. Do yourself a favor and have the spacer bored for a bearing. It will save you time during the riding season when your axle is bent because the sprocket is now so far out board of the wheel bearing. Vic does this on bikes like mine when he does the chain conversion. I have seen more than one come into his shop with a bent axle from his bigger motors and hard running (Remember when I tried to tell stroker about his belt).
I will try to find some pics from what he did, if I can't I can get them for you after the holidays.
Merry Christmas to all the members and thanks for a great year of information exchange.
Just curious, but how does adding a outboard bearing help from the axle bending?
too late...I went out into the barn and used a 2" hole saw on my drill press an enlarged the center hole in the sprocket spacer.
I have the chain on and the master link crimped. I'll start buttoning everything else up tomorrow.
[attach=0]
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I finished buttoning things up about an hour ago. It was 33* outside...so I let the bike warm up real good and took it around the block (roughly 1 mile out here in the country) to check things out and see if I could feel a difference in the gearing. I changed the final gear ratio with this chain conversion from 3.15 to 3.27...and did it ever make a big difference.
The 3.27 ratio has put it back to angry off the bottom end again...no hesitation at all and it wants to get up and go with the slightest bit of throttle. It's ready to go at any moment when you twist the wick from the slower rpm's I was running. I like the feel of this gearing much better.
The new Pirelli Angel GT tire was smooth as silk. I didn't try to pull hard on it because of the cold roads and the new back tire. The EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain ran silent also. :wink:
Merry Christmas all !
Ray
Ray,
Did you take notes on your RPM / MPH with that tire and gear ratio? Maybe some highway / top gear touring RPM? I'm just wondering how highway travelling would be.
:nix: yet.
It was too cold out to go very far. I will check it for you when I get a chance. I definitely noticed how much quicker it goes thru the gears now...even without pulling hard on it.
I like the feel of the 3.27 so far...a lot better than the 3.15.
Quote from: No Cents on December 25, 2013, 01:25:10 PM
I finished buttoning things up about an hour ago. It was 33* outside...so I let the bike warm up real good and took it around the block (roughly 1 mile out here in the country) to check things out and see if I could feel a difference in the gearing. I changed the final gear ratio with this chain conversion from 3.15 to 3.27...and did it ever make a big difference.
The 3.27 ratio has put it back to angry off the bottom end again...no hesitation at all and it wants to get up and go with the slightest bit of throttle. It's ready to go at any moment when you twist the wick from the slower rpm's I was running. I like the feel of this gearing much better.
The new Pirelli Angel GT tire was smooth as silk. I didn't try to pull hard on it because of the cold roads and the new back tire. The EK ZZZ 530 O-ring chain ran silent also. :wink:
Merry Christmas all !
Ray
Awesome! I figured youd like that chain. Ive been following this thread from the get go- always look forward to your updates. Merry Christmas to you and yours Ray.
:up:
thanks Marty.
When I got the chain I cleaned the factory grease off it in a parts cleaner...then hung it up in a tree and shot brake cleaner on it and blew it dry with the air compressor. I lubed it down with the Klotz KLR before taking it out on my little test ride yesterday.
I couldn't believe that the chain ran silent...I was amazed. I expected to hear it whirling...but nothing! When I parked the bike after my ride I pulled the hard bag off to see if it flung any lube onto the bike anywhere...nothing...nada. I like this chain lube.
I'm hoping to catch a warmer day here pretty soon so I can take it out and run it a little harder thru the paces.
Thanks for the suggestion on the EK ZZZ O-ring chain Marty...I appreciate it!
A little update on the chain conversion:
It's is a blazing 40* outside so I decided to put the Carthartts on and the leather coat and gloves and go see how this thing does.
The gearing change is awesome. :up: I can be rolling along in 1st gear now and just blip the throttle and the front wheel instantly comes off the ground. :dgust: I only rode it for about ten miles and had to go back home and park it...to thaw myself out....burrrr it's still winter out :emsad:
I can't wait until it warms up so I can take this baby out and bounce it off the rev limiter a few times and see how it acts.
It's definitely a new program with the softer rear tire, chain, and the gearing change...a totally different animal! :teeth:
Its definitely a different animal, on the midwest trips I was running 3.15 and like it for the highway, but changed to 3.27 and have never gone back. I do a lot of touring so ordered a OD 6 spd for the highway.
John...I did notice something today on my short ride. I shifted into sixth gear and cruised it a mile down the road to the stop sign going 50 mph...with no lugging or even a hint of it. Before I would have to be in fifth gear at that same speed to prevent it from trying to lug down so I would usually grab fourth.
Sixth gear appears to be a lot more usable now...and it's not just an interstate gear anymore.
This 3.27 gearing is going to be a lot more fun to play with too :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on December 26, 2013, 02:12:20 PM
John...I did notice something today on my short ride. I shifted into sixth gear and cruised it a mile down the road to the stop sign going 50 mph...with no lugging or even a hint of it. Before I would have to be in fifth gear at that same speed to prevent it from trying to lug down so I would usually grab fourth.
Sixth gear appears to be a lot more usable now...and it's not just an interstate gear anymore.
This 3.27 gearing is going to be a lot more fun to play with too :wink:
Thats what I was trying to say last time I posted here, Ray. Its kinda nice to be able to stay in high gear while you drop speed to ease through town and then just roll on when you leave town. Youre always in the sweet spot of the TQ for passing without having to downshift at highway speed too. You turn a few more RPMS at cruise but these motors like to turn.
I will try a can of that lube when the PJ runs out. Man- I bet that is a fun ride. Going to see some track time next year? :potstir:
Quote from: m1marty on December 26, 2013, 02:39:11 PM
I will try a can of that lube when the PJ runs out. Man- I bet that is a fun ride. Going to see some track time next year? :potstir:
That's the plan. It's getting a lot closer to being track worthy :embarrassed:
New Years Day and it was 47* outside so I jumped on the bike to return a borrowed tool since Durwood took my keys to my tool box. :hyst: When I left my friend Randys house (groundhog135) he told me to open it up...so I couldn't resist and figured why not.
As I've done in the past...I would roll it out slowly in 1st gear in front of his house...pull in the clutch and dump it at 3500-4000 rpm's and spin the tire and bounce it off the rev limiter for him. Randy gets a kick out of that.
But not this time. [attach=0] I did my usual roll out in 1st...pulled the clutch in and dumped it at around 3500 rpm's. The damn thing didn't spin a lick with this softer new rear tire and the gear change.
It instantly put the front end straight up in the air..."IT SCARED THE HELL OUT OF ME" :dgust:
I was not prepared for that. My legs must of looked like an octopus on it I bet. [attach=1] My heart was pounding so hard I thought it was going to jump out of my chest. One hell of an adrenalin rush!
I got home and had to check the rear fender to see if I scraped it up. :doh: ...then I had to go into the house and clean my under wear out [attachimg=3]
Now that was a New Years Day ride I won't forget anytime soon :embarrassed:
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
That is sweet music to my ears,now that you got a taste for the air up there pretty soon you will be getting the hang of it and you will be banging gears and riding wheelies all summer long,thats right i said riding wheelies :koolaid:
:hyst: :hyst:
I don't usually check this thread, now I think I'll start... :hyst:
Hahaha! Welcome to the fun of wheelies. Bet you do it again.
Oh Yeah, those unexpected wheelies are always the best ones! :bike:
You want me to steal Jim's wheelie bar for you? :idunno:
Just roll out about 10mph and roll off the throttle and wickit should get an instant bite and let the party begin then hit 2nd in air and roll for about 3-400 ft , front tire about 24"s off the ground , nuttin but power !!! that's when you get everybody's attention ....xzo
Well since you've decided to start flying time to learn how:
How to do a wheelie on a sport motorcycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqdYvMadiU#ws)
How to wheelie a motorcycle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqlgvfkih58#)
How to Pop a Wheelie on a Motorcycle : Riding a Wheelie Balance Point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWookzdYYgU#)
It was totally unexpected and took me by surprise...I wasn't ready for that one.
I thought with the cold road it would have no trouble busting this softer rear tire loose...boy was I ever wrong :slap:
It just flat out hooked up...like right now...and had me kissin the sky. :embarrassed:
I'm going to have to play with this thing now...to figure out how to launch it. It's a whole different bike now with the gear change, chain conversion, and a softer rear tire.
Ray you were probably too busy to notice someone got a picture of you.
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o756/1fstrk/387821d8-df21-4652-a593-e5e96d99c5e6_zps3b1d23f4.jpg)
You may want to look into this.
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o756/1fstrk/8fc05bf2-654c-4bb9-b7d6-0866d15bcadf_zps18f7f775.jpg)
Happy new year
:hyst:
that's probably about how I looked. I was hoping nobody seen me after I did it. It had to look hilarious. Both my legs were flapping in the breeze and my eyes were probably the size of basketballs [attach=0]
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I didn't want to bring this thread back to the top...but I thought someone might be interested in what I've decided to do to my Burns pipe. I'm making an end cap for it.
I'm thinking this will make a little more pressure in the pipe and maybe it will produce some earlier torque in the rpm band off the bottom.
I'm having a buddy of mine machine it out of 6061 aluminum round bar. It will have 3 openings that measure .250 around the outside of the end cap and a center hole of 1.750" to start with that will be champered on the inside towards the baffle. I can always open up the inside hole in size if needed.
Here is what I scribbled on paper for him to machine out.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
a picture of kind of what I'm after.
[attach=0]
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Send a copy of that print to Vince and then post his reply here.
" I didn't want to bring this thread back to the top" :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: Why? Only been doing it for 7 months :horse:
:emoGroan: back pressure is bad umkay
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Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 25, 2014, 07:36:09 AM
Send a copy of that print to Vince and then post his reply here.
Eric...I did as you requested and sent it to Vince @ Burns...and he said it's worth a try if I needed more bottom end.
He said I would more than likely gain on the bottom...but it might see a little lose up top.
I'm going to go ahead and make the end cap and have it ready for spring time. I do plan on riding it a little more as is before I make my decision if I even need more on the bottom end.
With what little time I got to ride it after it's last tune...I might be just wasting my time.
Quote from: torqueinc on January 25, 2014, 09:32:08 AM
:emoGroan: back pressure is bad umkay
Actually, back pressure is nonsense, but pressure in the pipe is not.
The inside of a Burns muffler is such a beautiful piece of art that it seems a shame to plug it up.
well I guess I said that wrong John...not back pressure...but more pressure in the pipe is what I meant to say.
My Burns pipe was actually designed for the 11.86:1 compression bump and a set of later closing cams.
Right now with less compression and earlier closing cams...this might be a better option than trying different cams.
I figured it was worth a try to see if anything happens. I'd only be out the $6.00 for the cost of the aluminum. My buddy will machine it for free...well actually probably a case of :beer:
I have a guy local that said he would spin it on his dyno and do a base pull from where it currently sits...then I can bolt the end cap on and he will do another pull and see what it does on the bottom. If it looks good...it will then need to take another ride back to Strokerjlk's for some tweeking.
My aluminum round bar stock came in the mail today.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
I was messing with John. Not you Ray.
Quote from: AllanW on January 25, 2014, 09:06:24 AM
" I didn't want to bring this thread back to the top" :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: Why? Only been doing it for 7 months :horse:
[attach=0] sorry there AllanW...if you are not interested in this thread...just pass it on by and read another.
I didn't post this for you...I did it for all the people that have pm'd me about this Burns pipe and are interested in one.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Ray even on a full throttle pull, if the cap does what you hope and changes the air flow curve at low rpm you will have to make a rough fuel adjustment to see if it will actually help the lowend torque.
The local dyno guy said he would play with it a little on the tune to see if it makes a difference. I told him I didn't want him to do a full tune on it...just to see if it makes any difference. I told him if it looked promising I would take it back to Jim's.
He said he would be more than happy to see if it makes a difference for me.
Well if anyone is interested I had Vince have his engineer design a 2-1 stepped pipe for my engine. I asked for a peak torque pipe designed around my 120", Baisley Hybrid heads, 12.3:1 with a TW68G cam and 62mm HPInc tb. Each step is 12.0" long going from 1.875" to 2.00" to 2.125" then into the collector. So this pipe is a little longer than what they designed for Ray. If I can get a picture of the inside of the collector and muffler I'll post it. It is a thing of beauty.
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 12:21:38 PM
well I guess I said that wrong John...not back pressure...but more pressure in the pipe is what I meant to say.
My Burns pipe was actually designed for the 11.86:1 compression bump and a set of later closing cams.
Right now with less compression and earlier closing cams...this might be a better option than trying different cams.
I figured it was worth a try to see if anything happens. I'd only be out the $6.00 for the cost of the aluminum. My buddy will machine it for free...well actually probably a case of :beer:
I have a guy local that said he would spin it on his dyno and do a base pull from where it currently sits...then I can bolt the end cap on and he will do another pull and see what it does on the bottom. If it looks good...it will then need to take another ride back to Strokerjlk's for some tweeking.
My aluminum round bar stock came in the mail today.
[attach=0]
Where did you order the aluminum from? I need some similar for a project.
E-Bay
Quote from: HighLiner on January 25, 2014, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 12:21:38 PM
well I guess I said that wrong John...not back pressure...but more pressure in the pipe is what I meant to say.
My Burns pipe was actually designed for the 11.86:1 compression bump and a set of later closing cams.
Right now with less compression and earlier closing cams...this might be a better option than trying different cams.
I figured it was worth a try to see if anything happens. I'd only be out the $6.00 for the cost of the aluminum. My buddy will machine it for free...well actually probably a case of :beer:
I have a guy local that said he would spin it on his dyno and do a base pull from where it currently sits...then I can bolt the end cap on and he will do another pull and see what it does on the bottom. If it looks good...it will then need to take another ride back to Strokerjlk's for some tweeking.
My aluminum round bar stock came in the mail today.
[attach=0]
Where did you order the aluminum from? I need some similar for a project.
I've used this place a few times. They're great for small volume items, and will cut to length.
https://www.metalsdepot.com/index.php (https://www.metalsdepot.com/index.php)
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 07:21:20 AM
a picture of kind of what I'm after.
[attach=0]
Ray, I own a Guppy II pipe from JBV Racing and have the current design baffle. The baffle is more than just and end cap. It is about eight inches long, shaped sort of like a bullet with a hole down the middle, and allows for flow around the outside as well.
I dyno'd the bike with and without the baffle, picked up a bunch of low and midrange, lost very little on the right side.
Quote from: turboprop on January 25, 2014, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 07:21:20 AM
a picture of kind of what I'm after.
[attach=0]
Ray, I own a Guppy II pipe from JBV Racing and have the current design baffle. The baffle is more than just and end cap. It is about eight inches long, shaped sort of like a bullet with a hole down the middle, and allows for flow around the outside as well.
I dyno'd the bike with and without the baffle, picked up a bunch of low and midrange, lost very little on the right side.
:up:
thanks for the info Ed!
I hope this end cap does what I'm hoping it will do. I found one of Brian's (JBV) baffle/end cap design drawing and adapted it to fit into the Burns muffler so that it will flow down the middle and along the edges from the existing baffle.
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and see how it does this spring. I figured it couldn't hurt trying.
Vince @ Burns sent my sketch to Jack (owner of Burns) to get his opinion on it.
Ray, I don't bowl but have heard it's an awesome cure to the winter time blues :bike:
:hyst: There is no cure for what Ray has. :bike:
if it was sunny and 85* out...would be a good start to a cure :smiled:
:crook: It was sunny and 79 yesterday, and mine is apart. normally high 40's to mid 50's around here this time of the year, and we haven't had any rain in more than 50 days..... might have some in a week. we could use it.
Hey Ray,
Looking foreword to seeing the effect! Was my wonder when you showed your sheepskin. :up: :pop:
Ray looking forward to seeing how your baffle works out I hope it does the trick. Glad you got a reply from Vince before you spent time making things.
As for your thread here I think it is great to follow the story in one thread it is better than having to search all over for bits and pieces of this great story. On the other hand Vic helped a guy with a Ferrari V12 project and I have been watching that guy's thread for about 4 years, it is 173 pages long with 3500 posts but he is basically hand making it one piece at a time in his basement and puts up lots of pictures to go with my morning coffee.
Ray, have you ever seen A/R chambers like this?
Much different than what was big a few years ago that slipped into the pipe before you install them, they don't reduce the opening size.
Haven't seen it in the Harley arena of exhaust, or know if it's been tested.
When tuning your bike, did it go rich on the bottom and Jim had to lean it out to get the AFR back? Maybe Jim could have some input on them since he seen what your pipe was doing to the AFR?
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
I sent my sketch to both Jim and wfolarry before I posted it in the thread.
Jim said he thinks I'm on the right track....Larry wanted to know if I bought wheelie bars yet :dgust:
No bar aloud in the bagger class :hyst:
Quote from: turboprop on January 25, 2014, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 07:21:20 AM
a picture of kind of what I'm after.
[attach=0]
Ray, I own a Guppy II pipe from JBV Racing and have the current design baffle. The baffle is more than just and end cap. It is about eight inches long, shaped sort of like a bullet with a hole down the middle, and allows for flow around the outside as well.
I dyno'd the bike with and without the baffle, picked up a bunch of low and midrange, lost very little on the right side.
Is this the baffle?
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/636/guppymuffler.jpg)
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on January 30, 2014, 06:50:09 PM
Quote from: turboprop on January 25, 2014, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2014, 07:21:20 AM
a picture of kind of what I'm after.
[attach=0]
Ray, I own a Guppy II pipe from JBV Racing and have the current design baffle. The baffle is more than just and end cap. It is about eight inches long, shaped sort of like a bullet with a hole down the middle, and allows for flow around the outside as well.
I dyno'd the bike with and without the baffle, picked up a bunch of low and midrange, lost very little on the right side.
Is this the baffle?
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/636/guppymuffler.jpg)
Yes.
QuoteWhen tuning your bike, did it go rich on the bottom and Jim had to lean it out to get the AFR back? Maybe Jim could have some input on them since he seen what your pipe was doing to the AFR?
It went lean at 2250 -2500 1.1 - 1.5 AFR both cylinders .
2750 -4000 it was close enough to not need a change . On the front .
Rear needed .2-.5 in same area . 4000-6500 didn't need a change .
Front needed .4 . 5 more Afr from 4000- 6500
Does anyone know if JBV is still in business?
I'm looking for a Guppy III for EVO application of 126 inches.
I believe they are.
Hey Nowhereman, nice to see you post :up:
Good seeing you Durwood.
Hows the scoot?
Quote from: Nowhereman on February 18, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
Good seeing you Durwood.
Hows the scoot?
Sold the softy, bought me a Road glide Ultra, its alot of fun :up:
How bout your ride? :chop:
Nice, that's a first class scoot.
I still have my custom and my FLSTF.
Always tinkering with em.
Looking for a JBV for the FLSTF.
Those guys never answer emails so I thought they went belly up.
Quote from: Nowhereman on February 18, 2014, 11:54:34 AM
Nice, that's a first class scoot.
I still have my custom and my FLSTF.
Always tinkering with em.
Looking for a JBV for the FLSTF.
Those guys never answer emails so I thought they went belly up.
Ray, the author of this thread might be able to put you in touch with them...
This is a good tech forum, your input will be welcomed by many.. I'd like to be the first to welcome you to HTT :up:
Thanks.
Just replaced the stator / regulator in the FLSTF and while I was in there, took a look at the compensator and noticed it was on it's last legs.
Replaced it with the BDL unit.
Wow what a difference in weight and simplicity.
It made my Ultima six speed shift so much nicer now, I have to wonder how long the HD unit was bad.
Hope you stick around NWM, I always enjoyed your posts. You ever move forward with the snail? If so I'd love to hear about it.
They never answered any of my emails, so I had Burns design a pipe for my scoot.
Quote from: Nowhereman on February 18, 2014, 11:12:37 AM
Does anyone know if JBV is still in business?
I'm looking for a Guppy III for EVO application of 126 inches.
JBV is still in business and making pipes. I have a Guppy with the newest baffle and hear from Brian regularly.
Ed...that makes Brian one of the hardest men in the world to get ahold of then. I tried phone calls and e-mails for months on end. I never got a reply to any of them.
I finally went with a Burns kit after giving up on Brian's no response.
Quote from: No Cents on February 18, 2014, 05:09:05 PM
Ed...that makes Brian one of the hardest men in the world to get ahold of then. I tried phone calls and e-mails for months on end. I never got a reply to any of them.
I finally went with a Burns kit after giving up on Brian's no response.
And it looks like your Burns SS pipe has been a huge success. Congrats.
As for Brian, while I do not speak for him, he works outside the harley industry (think white lab coat, NASA scientist type) and I suspect he only takes on projects that he is interested in. Not making excuses, just offering some insight and a little speculation.
Quote from: Nowhereman on February 18, 2014, 11:54:34 AM
Nice, that's a first class scoot.
I still have my custom and my FLSTF.
Always tinkering with em.
Looking for a JBV for the FLSTF.
Those guys never answer emails so I thought they went belly up.
I tried emailing as well with no result.
well men...the winter here in Ohio has been a long cold wet one this year. More snow has fell around here than I can remember in a long time.
I've done my very best to stay out of the barn to keep temptation down so I wouldn't want to do any wrenching on the bike :teeth:
After going to the Expo and talking to S&S about the new 635HO cams it got my old brain spinning again :doh: S&S really talked the 635HO cams up and they said they were a true performance cam that has proven itself beyond their expectations.
So I've been talking with S&S back and forth ever since the Expo. I had a few concerns about the cams with their early intake closing along with the higher TDC exhaust lift and the extra long exhaust duration. I was assured that the spec's were designed for the performance minded person and they were excited to see someone use them in a bigger inch motor for everyone to see the results.
So you guys know me...I'm just 8-up enough to give them a try and set my curiosity to rest.
As soon as the weather breaks I'm going to ride it as it sits...then I'll swap the cams and let Jim tuner up again. I will have my end cap ready for my pipe by then so we can see what difference it makes also.
It will be interesting for sure Ray. I for one look forward to see what the cams do. Some of the specs do seem to go against the normal for what's commonly done, but then again, this is how break thru's are done too. :up:
Quote from: No Cents on February 21, 2014, 02:53:32 AM
well men...the winter here in Ohio has been a long cold wet one this year. More snow has fell around here than I can remember in a long time.
I've done my very best to stay out of the barn to keep temptation down so I wouldn't want to do any wrenching on the bike :teeth:
After going to the Expo and talking to S&S about the new 635HO cams it got my old brain spinning again :doh: S&S really talked the 635HO cams up and they said they were a true performance cam that has proven itself beyond their expectations.
So I've been talking with S&S back and forth ever since the Expo. I had a few concerns about the cams with their early intake closing along with the higher TDC exhaust lift and the extra long exhaust duration. I was assured that the spec's were designed for the performance minded person and they were excited to see someone use them in a bigger inch motor for everyone to see the results.
So you guys know me...I'm just 8-up enough to give them a try and set my curiosity to rest.
As soon as the weather breaks I'm going to ride it as it sits...then I'll swap the cams and let Jim tuner up again. I will have my end cap ready for my pipe by then so we can see what difference it makes also.
Sorry on last post,forget to type info.No cents you are way beyond the point of no return.You will never be satisfied but only for a short while ,welcome to the Abbey Normal club.
I've been a member of that club every since I bought my first Harley....ummm some 40 years ago.
I posted it in my avatar...there is no cure for what I got! :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on February 21, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
I've been a member of that club every since I bought my first Harley....ummm some 40 years ago.
I posted it in my avatar...there is no cure for what I got! :hyst:
AND I HOPE THEY NEVER FIND ONE...I LOVE READING ABOUT THE SYMPTOMS!
+1 - this is a great thread! :up:
Quote from: No Cents on February 21, 2014, 02:53:32 AM
well men...the winter here in Ohio has been a long cold wet one this year. More snow has fell around here than I can remember in a long time.
I've done my very best to stay out of the barn to keep temptation down so I wouldn't want to do any wrenching on the bike :teeth:
After going to the Expo and talking to S&S about the new 635HO cams it got my old brain spinning again :doh: S&S really talked the 635HO cams up and they said they were a true performance cam that has proven itself beyond their expectations.
So I've been talking with S&S back and forth ever since the Expo. I had a few concerns about the cams with their early intake closing along with the higher TDC exhaust lift and the extra long exhaust duration. I was assured that the spec's were designed for the performance minded person and they were excited to see someone use them in a bigger inch motor for everyone to see the results.
So you guys know me...I'm just 8-up enough to give them a try and set my curiosity to rest.
As soon as the weather breaks I'm going to ride it as it sits...then I'll swap the cams and let Jim tuner up again. I will have my end cap ready for my pipe by then so we can see what difference it makes also.
Awesome! I for one want to see how this new cam does. The early intake close had me wondering how it would do at higher compressions. Maybe the longer exhaust duration helps bleed off some of the pressure? It will be interesting for sure.
What the F1 guys have found out is that exhaust valves don't care that much about area (lift) they are more sensitive to duration.
Intakes want the area.
Most top end cam designers know this now and are coming out with some super designs that save your torque and give the HP.
Ray i cant help wonder if there isnt something seriously wrong with you,with that said lets get the bikes out tomorrow and go get a burger and some beers.. :hyst:
Quote from: groundhog135 on February 21, 2014, 02:37:38 PM
Ray i cant help wonder if there isnt something seriously wrong with you,with that said lets get the bikes out tomorrow and go get a burger and some beers.. :hyst:
deranged...is close :hyst:
burgers and beers :up:
It was nice enough out today to finally get a little ride in. Damn was that nice to be able to finally get it out of the barn and put it on the road. The roads were dry but they still have a lot of loose sand and gravel on them in places...so I had to be careful and watch out.
The old Duracell ran flawlessly. With the chain conversion and the gearing change I did...I call be rolling along in 1st gear and just blip the throttle quickly and the front tire just comes up off the ground with ease. The new softer rear Pirelli Angel GT tire is awesome.
I didn't try to launch it because the roads are not worthy yet...but it has that angry feeling to it every where.
Jim did a great job tuning it this last go around with the Burns pipe, and after I got it back from him and I did the gearing change to 3.27 from 3.15...I have quickly found out that it just wants to get up and go from anywhere in the rpm band.
Now tomorrow...it's back to winter around here again they say :doh: but a day like today helps with the winter time blues :wink:
Good you were able to get out Ray, looking forward if you decide to test the 635HO :up:.
Now I'm not trying to enable your affliction, ....but, if the shoe fit's,....
Quote from: Deye76 on February 22, 2014, 05:19:04 PM
Good you were able to get out Ray, looking forward if you decide to test the 635HO :up:.
Now I'm not trying to enable your affliction, ....but, if the shoe fit's,....
Enable Ray ? he does a great job of that himself... :hyst:
I had a TC 120 Jim's in my Pro Street Chopper with pretty serious compression. Heads by Poor Boy, WT 46 cams and Big Ass HPI TB. It had a RSD 6speed. I had problem with the belt
stretchting with that much power. But I would find it hard to believe that S&S would come out with a cam that's far and away better than a T-Man, Woods or a WT. I wouldn't of wanted a cam bigger than the 46. It came in just right. Any larger and it would of come in to late. I would wait for some dyno charts to come out on it. :idunno:
Quote from: Deye76 on February 22, 2014, 05:19:04 PM
Good you were able to get out Ray, looking forward if you decide to test the 635HO :up:.
Now I'm not trying to enable your affliction, ....but, if the shoe fit's,....
It did feel good to get a little winter ride in to cure my blues. The bike ran as strong as I remembered before I parked it for the winter.
John & Darren...as far as the 635HO cams go...it would be a nice experiment to see if their unusual cam spec's really work as well as S&S keeps telling me. They said I wouldn't be sorry if I tried them :nix:
I still haven't received the testing dyno sheets they promised me from the 124 that is set up with the same compression as mine and made such huge gains. It will be interesting to see them. The guy that had a set for testing in his 124...does the R&D testing at his shop for D&D exhaust.
My real interest in them is to see if they compliment my pipe more than the 662-2's did...if they don't...I can always slip the -2's back in and re-load the -2's map.
I'm just pokin' at ya Ray, I am nearly as 8-up as you on this performance stuff, difference is the bank roll, mine goes to Murray State University....
That will be over Dec of 2015 when she graduates...Then look out, i'm comin to get ya' :potstir:
I know what your talking about Darren...my baby is 24 years old now. All three kids are grown and out on their own, and the 4 bedroom house sure does feel empty at times now. Time sure does fly...it seems like yesterday I had the baby in diapers sitting on my bike.
My addiction for this performance stuff has been with me my whole life...before the wifeeepooh and the kids were even a thought...and I will probably be that way until the day I die.
This was an old laminated picture I've had around for a long time...excuse the rust colored lines in the pic.
That's my 24 year old son on my 91 FXSTC...which I would keep in our old house inside the kitchen during the winter...lol
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Love those pics.
I can relate... :wink:
You sure that 124 was just like yours.. Last time I saw that 124 engine it had the new B2 heads on it and a 70 MM t/b . R&D testing for D&D... well ... I hope that he is testing the pipes he works there. Aron moved on and he took his place .
Steve...I'm just going on what Scott @ S&S told me.
The guy that had the 124 that did the testing was at the booth at the Expo. Scott walked me over to talk with him but he was busy talking with the guy that machines the T2 cases so you don't have to run the external oil lines. I got side tracked with that conversation and lost all train of thought about asking about his 124. I did get the cat's card that can machine the T2 cases though. :wink:
here is a pic of the same 91 FXSTC one year later. As you can see it wasn't stock no more. I made over 100/100 out of that little 80ci motor.
This is a pic that I keep in my wallet taken in Sturgis...with the wifeeepooh sitting on it.
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[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
that is a nice old photo to have. Lost to many of them over the years unfortunately
Machining on the cases , NICE !!!
Quote from: No Cents on February 23, 2014, 01:52:57 PM
here is a pic of the same 91 FXSTC one year later. As you can see it wasn't stock no more. I made over 100/100 out of that little 80ci motor.
This is a pic that I keep in my wallet taken in Sturgis...with the wifeeepooh sitting on it.
[attach=0]
Nice a double keeper.
Like to here more on the case machining.
Something a guy with a Bridgeport could handle maybe?
I got my S&S 635HO cams in today. I took a picture of them trying to show the huge difference in the shape of the intake and exhaust lobes. The intake is more egg shaped and the exhaust is...well you decide.
I also noticed the camshaft body between the lobes seems to be a touch bigger around.
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
What compression do you plan on running and what are you running now?
11.10:1 is my current static compression...and according to S&S...that will be perfect :nix:
They had testing done with the 635's in a 124 with the same compression as mine...and they said the results blew them away with the gains it made with just a cam swap.
I was concerned with the early intake closing and it running my corrected compression too high. I will be @ 10.04:1 and my ccp's should be around 209.3 @ 600' altitude...according to the Big Boyz calculator. S&S told me these cams are right at home with a 10.00:1 corrected compression.
My guess is the longer exhaust duration is bleeding a little compression off...but that's only a guess. I was told with the design spec's of the 635's that they actually made more bottom end torque sooner and more top end horsepower than their ever reliable 640 cams.
I guess I'll find out later this spring if they work in mine as well as they were saying.
The only way I will know for sure...is to try 'em. I'm just hoping they work well with my Burns pipe.
Ummm, Ray, it has been many hours since you got the cams. Are they in the bike yet? :teeth:
Quote from: No Cents on February 23, 2014, 01:22:02 PM
I know what your talking about Darren...my baby is 24 years old now. All three kids are grown and out on their own, and the 4 bedroom house sure does feel empty at times now. Time sure does fly...it seems like yesterday I had the baby in diapers sitting on my bike.
My addiction for this performance stuff has been with me my whole life...before the wifeeepooh and the kids were even a thought...and I will probably be that way until the day I die.
This was an old laminated picture I've had around for a long time...excuse the rust colored lines in the pic.
That's my 24 year old son on my 91 FXSTC...which I would keep in our old house inside the kitchen during the winter...lol
[attach=0]
that's awesome. My dad kept his bike in the living room when I was a kid. He has similar pics of me on it. Now I have pics of my 2 year old on my bike.
Quote from: WI Bob on February 25, 2014, 07:46:24 PM
Ummm, Ray, it has been many hours since you got the cams. Are they in the bike yet? :teeth:
:hyst: no...the plan is to do them sometime this spring...then I'll get with Jim and find out when he has a slot open to fiddle with it.
A little off subject here Ray but would it be to hard to make a "table of contents" for your topic. LOL.
I was looking to verify your exhaust specs and it took a while to find it. Were those specs accurate as well?
the OD size of the steps is correct...1 7/8- 2"- 2 1/8" @ the collector. I had to alter the lengths a little that Burns suggested to make the pipe fit the way I wanted. I'd have to measure them to get the exact lengths if you want them...I honestly don't know them off the top of my head.
Gordon...if you are wanting my spec's I'll post them here. I'll have to measure the pipes steps when I get home from work if you want them...I know I changed them from what Burns suggested.
The engine is set @ 11.10:1 static compression with -2.6cc flat top pistons and a .030 head gasket.
110" heads flowed 332 cfm @ 28" at .700 lift and it has a 2.1" intake valve. The exhaust is a 1.625" valve that flowed 240 cfm. wfolarry doesn't provide flow charts...just final #'s.
66mm S&S T/Hog with 6.2 HPI injectors pulling air thru an Exotx extended air filter.
current cams are the Tman 662-2's.
my final gear ratio is now 3.27
if you need more info...hopefully I can answer your questions or possibly find out.
Thanks, I was wondering and started looking, but it's a long thread. I thought you were running some squeeze.
I will not pull my 640's!! I will not pull my 640's!! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! :emoGroan:
Quote from: rob71458 on February 26, 2014, 06:07:49 AM
I will not pull my 640's!! I will not pull my 640's!! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! :emoGroan:
:hyst:
So will the 635"s raise the ccp compared to the 662-2 and what is your ccp now Ray?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 26, 2014, 06:06:40 AM
but it's a long thread.
You're telling me, but I have to keep reading it. :teeth:
current ccp's is 200
635HO ccp will be 209
You guys are right about this thread being a very long one. It did seem to get a lot of interests and views along the way.
I think it's time for me to just let this thread die off...it's been a lengthy journey that I have learned a lot from...along the way.
Thanks for all the support and suggestions in the thread.
This will be my last posting in this thread.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on February 26, 2014, 08:03:10 AM
current ccp's is 200
635HO ccp will be 209
You guys are right about this thread being a very long one. It did seem to get a lot of interests and views along the way.
I think it's time for me to just let this thread die off...it's been a lengthy journey that I have learned a lot from...along the way.
Thanks for all the support and suggestions in the thread.
This will be my last posting in this thread.
Ray
I don't think you should kill it. I've rather been enjoying it and was just kidding about it being long. There seems to still be a lot of interest...or you could start another relating to it.
Rick
I just like to say thanks for all the time and energy you put into this thread,
it was both interesting and informative. Hope you will follow up with the cam change in
new one.
Think we called it "Section 8"
Semper Fi
I agree with Rick, for a while back I thought holy crap is this thing ever going to die, now the interest is back up again. :up:
:agree: I have thoroughly enjoyed it myself, besides Ray, ya gotta post the new sheet in here, It is about the 124 :teeth:
:agree: ..... and it is still barn built ...... :bike:
I wouldn't kill the thread, but if you do we need another one with the 124 and 635.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 26, 2014, 10:35:54 AM
I wouldn't kill the thread, but if you do we need another one with the 124 and 635.
good idea :up:
Keep it l together in one thread .
Ray ...If you start another thread . Let it be for the 135 er
This is all about the same motor same bike . It's a journey and deserves to be in one thread .
Ray I check every day for new posts on this thread.I have thoroughly enjoyed every word.Learned much from this one. Dont kill it,extend it.The winter is killing me and this thread is keeping me alive!Fred
Quote from: strokerjlk on February 26, 2014, 12:17:48 PM
Keep it l together in one thread .
Ray ...If you start another thread . Let it be for the 135 er
This is all about the same motor same bike . It's a journey and deserves to be in one thread .
:agree:
Quote from: strokerjlk on February 26, 2014, 12:17:48 PM
Keep it l together in one thread .
Ray ...If you start another thread . Let it be for the 135 er
This is all about the same motor same bike . It's a journey and deserves to be in one thread .
:agree: :up:
Quote from: kd on February 26, 2014, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on February 26, 2014, 12:17:48 PM
Keep it l together in one thread .
Ray ...If you start another thread . Let it be for the 135 er
This is all about the same motor same bike . It's a journey and deserves to be in one thread .
:agree: :up:
YUP :up:
:agree:
It looks like your screwed Ray. :hug: This one will be a novel when you're done (or at least set some sort of record for number of views and replies.
+1 for keeping this thread as long as you have the motor. It is a great journey and should be an inspiration to all motor heads. I for one hope it inspires others to do similar threads on big projects.
thread?!?!? i thought this start off as a short story and is now becoming a book when was it a thread? haha
Quote from: digga25 on February 26, 2014, 12:28:11 PM
Ray I check every day for new posts on this thread.I have thoroughly enjoyed every word.Learned much from this one. Dont kill it,extend it.The winter is killing me and this thread is keeping me alive!Fred
what he said.
:agree: :up: Another vote positive to retain the thread here. The winter has been horrid here in Ontario, Canada and this build has been highly entertaining and informative. :chop: Buffalo
Cmon Ray dont fk around where are u.
He's pulling that motor apart and putting those 635s in there!
Quote from: digga25 on February 26, 2014, 08:00:29 PM
Cmon Ray dont fk around where are u.
I'm here...I just thought you guys might be getting tired of the length of this on going saga. :banghead:
It seems most everyone is in agreement that if I post anything about the 124, beings it is the same engine, in the same bike...I should keep it in this subject line...so I will.
I just didn't want to ruffle any feathers :wink:
Thanks Ray
Reaper T-man cycle Rama , it's about time your switching over to proven performance S&S :potstir:
:hyst:
You forgot the Bobby Wood 408-6's
Quote from: No Cents on February 27, 2014, 10:34:56 AM
:hyst:
You forgot the Bobby Wood 408-6's
Huh? I can't hear you.. :hyst:
That's what I said. :doh:
You're right Ray Musta had a :bf:
Quote from: No Cents on February 27, 2014, 10:34:56 AM
:hyst:
You forgot the Bobby Wood 408-6's
Never ever again :banghead:
Quote from: strokerjlk on February 27, 2014, 12:10:07 PM
Quote from: No Cents on February 27, 2014, 10:34:56 AM
:hyst:
You forgot the Bobby Wood 408-6's
Never ever again :banghead:
The one and only build I ever heard with them cams sounded like a concrete mixer :hyst:
:up:
yep...a concrete mixer is about right :hyst:
this is when I took it from a 96" to a 103 Stage 4
I could not stand the valve train noise associated with the 408-6's. I tried HD B lifters, Wood Directional, and the video was taken with H-Q Black Ops lifters...which was the quietest running the engine ever got between all the lifters I tried. I put a set of Tman 625's in it after pulling the 408-6's...and the valve train went back to quiet as stock.
Don't make fun of those tanned chicken legs...the video was taken in early May :hyst:
http://youtu.be/-y0XNweK8i4 (http://youtu.be/-y0XNweK8i4)
I decided to pull the 408-6's out and sell them along with the V&H Pro Pipe. TR suggested to me to try his Tman 625's, and I picked up a Zilla . I changed the wheels/rotors and put on a set of chrome legs and crash bar while I had it up on the lift.
I really liked this combo in the 103 with wfolarry's massaged 110 heads and the SE 10.5:1 domed pistons...which the 408-6's had the same set up.
It was a pleasure to ride...and had plenty of power everywhere.
http://youtu.be/bxhuvrScx64 (http://youtu.be/bxhuvrScx64)
then came the 117 with the 594 cams
http://youtu.be/EgGiaaScFVg (http://youtu.be/EgGiaaScFVg)
now your up to speed on the changes this bike has went thru to the present 124.
:chop:
You want to REALLY listen, TRY all three at the same time. Turn up your volume and Start all Three bikes and you'll get an Ear Full...
Lot of Time Work and Money... THANKS for this thread and ONLY 61 pages long... Full of Information to read but Not much I'll try like you did. Sticking to my Old Mans Bike Build... Plenty for me... :hyst:
signed....BUBBIE
you need to dig up some dyno sheet and specs of this journey of the process so everyone can have it on one page :) you know if you get bored
I can do that for you. I lost the dyno sheet for my 103 Stage 4 build after I cleaned the barn out a few years ago. I must have tossed it in the garbage by mistake while I was cleaning. It made 120/121 SAE...if memory serves me correct.
Here is the progression it has made since the 103 to where it's at now.
117 with 594 cams and Zilla
[attach=0]
124 with CR 650 cams and Zilla
[attach=1]
124 with 662-2 cams and Zilla
[attachimg=3]
124 with 662-2 cams and the Burns pipe
[attachimg=4]
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Ray, i've been watchin the cam thread, I looked and your tool box keys are missing, Do I need to report them stolen? :pop:
No...I called a locksmith :cry:
Now that's crafty... very crafty.
148/143 ...gotta be a kick to ride :bike:
VERY interested to see what the S&S can do :pop:
thanks again for all the effort and for sharing it all - you walk the walk :up: :up:
:rose: I had to attend a funeral today for a co-worker that got killed on the job. :rose: A pole he was climbing fell over and landed on top of him. He actually got up and was walking around after the accident. The life squad was called and was transporting him to the hospital...he died in route. Unknown to anyone...he had a severed aorta...which made him bleed out. He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. He was only 43 years old...and lost his 8 year old son less than 6 months ago. He son died in his sleep while his father was on his way to work that morning. He is survived by his wife and three other children. My guess is God figured his son needed him to be with him.
It was a very sad day for all his IBEW 1347 union brother & sister linepersons. :cry:
After the funeral they had some food and drinks for everyone at another church. So I went home and changed my clothes beings it was 56* outside and figured I'd ride the old Duracell back over.
I have to admit after my little ride back over to the church...the damn thing is absolutely amazing the way it sits right now!
With my recent gearing change to 3.27 when I did the chain conversion this past winter...it has made "HUGE" difference in the bike. I can now be in 6th gear cruising along at 45-50 mph without a hint of lugging or for the need to down shift and grab 5th gear. I took a nice easy slow cruise over to the church because the roads are still dirty in places with loose sand/gravel from the last blast of winter we got here this past weekend.
After I left the church I was feeling angry inside :angry: ...because of losing a dear friend with my heart full of sorrow. The closer I got to home the more I wanted to take my anger out with the bike. By the time I got close to home...the more tempting it became. I wanted to feel the power and hopefully it would take my mind off of my sorrows...and maybe cure some of my blues.
So I launched it from a stop sign @ 3500 rpm's from a dead stop. The bike instantly hooked up and pulled the front tire toward the sky...which I was expecting it this time and was ready for it...so I stayed in it. I hit 2nd gear with the tire still about 6" off the ground and it bounced off the rev limiter. Once I felt the tire touch the ground in 2nd gear...I banged 3rd gear and set it right back on the rev limiter again. I looked down when I hit 4th gear and I was already well over 100 mph...with a bunch left in it. I quickly backed off it and slowed down because of some loose gravel I seen in the approaching bend in the road...that I noticed on my way out to the church.
This is by far...the angriest this bike has ever been to date. There is absolutely no hesitation in it...it rev's in the blink of an eye...with tons of torque...and it just delivers instant power from everywhere. I'm in total amazement of the change in the bike from when I parked it for the winter.
It is a true joy to ride...even on one of the saddest days of my life :wink:
:up: :up: :up: Now Ray .... remind me again why you want to change that. :dgust:
Hang in there My Friend Only time will heal.... And Have a ride in Memory of your fellow friend and worker with some of the other guys from work if they ride,Stay Safe Ray you need anything let us Know..... :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on March 07, 2014, 01:30:26 PM
:rose: I had to attend a funeral today for a co-worker that got killed on the job. :rose: A pole he was climbing fell over and landed on top of him. He actually got up and was walking around after the accident. The life squad was called and was transporting him to the hospital...he died in route. Unknown to anyone...he had a severed aorta...which made him bleed out. He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. He was only 43 years old...and lost his 8 year old son less than 6 months ago. He son died in his sleep while his father was on his way to work that morning. He is survived by his wife and three other children. My guess is God figured his son needed him to be with him.
It was a very sad day for all his IBEW 1347 union brother & sister linepersons. :cry:
After the funeral they had some food and drinks for everyone at another church. So I went home and changed my clothes beings it was 56* outside and figured I'd ride the old Duracell back over.
I have to admit after my little ride back over to the church...the damn thing is absolutely amazing the way it sits right now!
With my recent gearing change to 3.27 when I did the chain conversion this past winter...it has made "HUGE" difference in the bike. I can now be in 6th gear cruising along at 45-50 mph without a hint of lugging or for the need to down shift and grab 5th gear. I took a nice easy slow cruise over to the church because the roads are still dirty in places with loose sand/gravel from the last blast of winter we got here this past weekend.
After I left the church I was feeling angry inside :angry: ...because of losing a dear friend with my heart full of sorrow. The closer I got to home the more I wanted to take my anger out with the bike. By the time I got close to home...the more tempting it became. I wanted to feel the power and hopefully it would take my mind off of my sorrows...and maybe cure some of my blues.
So I launched it from a stop sign @ 3500 rpm's from a dead stop. The bike instantly hooked up and pulled the front tire toward the sky...which I was expecting it this time and was ready for it...so I stayed in it. I hit 2nd gear with the tire still about 6" off the ground and it bounced off the rev limiter. Once I felt the tire touch the ground in 2nd gear...I banged 3rd gear and set it right back on the rev limiter again. I looked down when I hit 4th gear and I was already well over 100 mph...with a bunch left in it. I quickly backed off it and slowed down because of some loose gravel I seen in the approaching bend in the road...that I noticed on my way out to the church.
This is by far...the angriest this bike has ever been to date. There is absolutely no hesitation in it...it rev's in the blink of an eye...with tons of torque...and it just delivers instant power from everywhere. I'm in total amazement of the change in the bike from when I parked it for the winter.
It is a true joy to ride...even on one of the saddest days of my life :wink:
Man Ray,that's awful about your friend, sorry for your loss :sad:
Ray sorry for the loss of your friend I know its hard to deal with that.But you need to be careful with your own life while thinking of the loss of his,it would be a shame to hurt yourself in anger and put yourself in a situation where you cant take care of your family.Go easy live long,and to your friend RIP.
Id be interested in hearing a review of the tire especially after you get some miles on it.
Sorry to hear of your friend. We have a very unforgiving trade, accidents like that hit hard. We all grieve different. As hard as it is at work keep your focus brother.
Philip Blackburn L.U. 51
Quote from: IRONMIKE103 on March 07, 2014, 01:47:28 PM
Hang in there My Friend Only time will heal.... And Have a ride in Memory of your fellow friend and worker with some of the other guys from work if they ride. Stay Safe Ray you need anything let us Know.....
+1
prayers for you buddy and his family and friends :rose:
I just did a lineman tattoo that was in memory of a guys coworker who died on the job. Just did it last week. I have a picture of it somewhere. I'll post it if I can find it.
Prayers for our fallen brother IBEW 459
Sorry to here the loss of your friend. It's a hard thing to do sometimes when it comes to expressing your anger, frustration and true feelings when you need to be strong about what has just happened :sad: Sometimes you need to make a little noise on the road to get it all out of your system, and move on. Sometimes it really reviles what you are capable of. Helps a lot with the grieving process. I know this is true cause I do it.
Thanks for all the updates and videos on this thread. You are an inspiration to me with my next build. Prayers for your friends family and also with yours.
Keep the rubber side down brother.
Quote from: kd on March 07, 2014, 01:41:02 PM
:up: :up: :up: Now Ray .... remind me again why you want to change that. :dgust:
:up:
thanks for all the kind sincere gestures men...I truly appreciate it! :hug:
It was a tough thing to see...witnessing the sorrow of his grieving family. God had a greater plan for him...is all I can come up with.
[attach=0]
kd...if you don't know by now
I'm truly 8-up :hyst: ...I'm still not convinced the 635HO's won't offer the old Duracell a little gain over where it sits right now. :doh:
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
I hear you Ray. I suppose my comment was meant more to distract you from your grief. I want you to know we all feel your pain. At our age (and you are there whether you think you are or not) we start to lose our brothers and sisters for all sorts of reasons. I think it's important to realise that none of the ones we lose would want us to lose focus and somehow change because of it.
I lost a brother a few years ago that I rode with (and did lots of stuff I still can't admit to) for 42 years at that time. I miss him and think of him almost every time I ride. (Maybe it's the feather I have in my windshield frame that means he is always with me) They remain with us always.
Go for it bro. I'll be in touch.
WOW just getting caught up ...........RIP :sad:
so now your using the rev limiter to set the front end down soft ......nice. much more fun than burnouts. :bike:
angry bike :crash:
:up: :dgust:
:sad:Sorry to read about the loss.
The gearing change was a good move.I'm sure it makes it more responsive everywhere.
I took a little putt yesterday out to an establishment for some burgers and beers with groundhog135 and Hollywood.
Of course they tempted me to turn it up on the wick...so I did.
It's a wheelie monster now with the new sticky soft tire and the gearing change. Even with the cold roads...it just wants to lift the front tire at will.
Now that I got the go fast...I'm going to work on the stop fast.
I've already purchased 3 new sets of the gold Lyndall pads...which I having been using the gold's on the rear for about a year...and I really like them way better than the stock pads.
I've recently been looking into better rotors to compliment the Brembo calipers. I'm running a set of solid rotors that came with my aftermarket wheels to match them...but they are not floaters. The company that made my wheels now offers floating rotors to match...so I called them and they discounted me a set...so I ordered them. That was about 4 weeks ago. I e-mailed them last week after not receiving them and they informed me that their supplier will not have any ready until mid May sometime...so they refunded me my money back.
I've looked at what HD has to offer and also EBC. Anyone one used either of these rotors before...and how did they compare to the stock solid one piece rotor?
Quote from: No Cents on March 09, 2014, 12:26:50 PM
I took a little putt yesterday out to an establishment for some burgers and beers with groundhog135 and Hollywood.
Of course they tempted me to turn it up on the wick...so I did.
It's a wheelie monster now with the new sticky soft tire and the gearing change. Even with the cold roads...it just wants to lift the front tire at will.
Now that I got the go fast...I'm going to work on the stop fast.
I've already purchased 3 new sets of the gold Lyndall pads...which I having been using the gold's on the rear for about a year...and I really like them way better than the stock pads.
I've recently been looking into better rotors to compliment the Brembo calipers. I'm running a set of solid rotors that came with my aftermarket wheels to match them...but they are not floaters. The company that made my wheels now offers floating rotors to match...so I called them and they discounted me a set...so I ordered them. That was about 4 weeks ago. I e-mailed them last week after not receiving them and they informed me that their supplier will not have any ready until mid May sometime...so they refunded me my money back.
I've looked at what HD has to offer and also EBC. Anyone one used either of these rotors before...and how did they compare to the stock solid one piece rotor?
Call Jeff Gehrs at BrakeTech. He has 320mm rotors with the newer harley bolt pattern. BrakeTech is the supplier to Howard at Motorcycle Metal. You will need a set of adapters to move the calipers in the correct position. 320mm offers a substantial increase in swept area over the harley/brembo rotor.
:up:
thanks Ed. That looks like a killer set up!
For everyone else, here is a link to the website for Brake Tech's stuff for harley's. 320mm floating rotors, Brembo calipers and adapters. Really good stuff.
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111)
you beat me to it Ed...I was just getting ready to copy/paste the page on here too.
I'll be calling Jeff tomorrow. This looks like the best set up I've seen so far.
Thanks again!
That's exactly what BrianG used when he did a Dual Disk front on his Heritage.
I may contact them myself to see if the have the Adaptors to move the HD-Brembo Caliper as well.
His Flood Pants Thread (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,49565.msg520252.html#msg520252) on HTT.
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/nairbg/Harley%20hop-up/FinishedFrontBrakes.jpg)
Please note the many different friction compounds available from Ferrodo. I run the ZRAC pads on my FXR. Takes some getting used to. I am able to power deep into curves before braking, turn after turn, very little fade. My riding buddies do not me having having these brakes.
Stopping can be a good thing. Now you have me thinking. My 07' SERK, came with floating rotors, but I believe the calipers are single piston. Are Brembo's the best way to go? Will they work ok, with the OEM master cylinder? Thanks.
rob71458 the calipers on your '07 SERK are the Silver 44381-99C & 44382-99C that have been used (ignoring the rev level) on Softails, Dynas & Tourers since TC's came along.
Later '08 and onward HD-Brembo Calipers are an improvement and will require the '08 and onward HD-Brembo MC.
There's a good write up on HTT done by Ben, upgradeing a system to the later HD-Brembos and is cheap to do using take off parts, which is how I did the Duall HD-Brembos on my Fatty.
Now 320mm Rotors and 65mm Brembos, that setup would be even better, but to spendy for me.
(http://i.imgur.com/fw6ooud.png)
The brakes on the rc51 in the stable are very similar to the flood pants brakes, not identical, but similar. Great brakes, not radial brembo or isr good, but better than anything harley has. The rc51 can lay plumes of smoke of the front wheel, a harley can too if you set it up properly.
Thanks FSG.
I got ahold of Jeff @ Brake Tech. My factory Brembo calipers will not work with his 320mm Big-Brake kit. I would have to buy a set of different Brembo calipers.
So with being able to keep my current factory Brembo calipers...I've decided to get the Matrix composite rotors. Here is a picture of what I will be ordering. Mine will have black center carriers with chrome buttons.
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QuoteI may contact them myself to see if the have the Adaptors to move the HD-Brembo Caliper as well.
I sent them an email, no reply as yet, but it looks as though Ray got the answer anyway.
Jeff @ Brake Tech said in the e-mail I received that the Brembo (P4 30/34) twin-pin 4-pot caliper is needed for his 320mm kit.
Quote from: No Cents on March 11, 2014, 03:14:18 PM
I got ahold of Jeff @ Brake Tech. My factory Brembo calipers will not work with his 320mm Big-Brake kit. I would have to buy a set of different Brembo calipers.
So with being able to keep my current factory Brembo calipers...I've decided to get the Matrix composite rotors. Here is a picture of what I will be ordering. Mine will have black center carriers with chrome buttons.
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Along with that rotor are very specific requirements for pad material.
Ed...are you talking about the Matrix rotors?
Matrix said their rotors carry a lifetime warranty if you run a certain specific brake pad with them.
I asked them if the Lyndall Gold pads were okay. They said yes...the Lyndall Gold pads would not void their warranty.
That was good to know because I've got 3 new sets of Lyndall Gold pads sitting on the shelf out in the barn for the factory HD Brembo's.
Quote from: No Cents on March 11, 2014, 04:21:34 PM
Ed...are you talking about the Matrix rotors?
Matrix said their rotors carry a lifetime warranty if you run a certain specific brake pad with them.
I asked them if the Lyndall Gold pads were okay. They said yes...the Lyndall Gold pads would not void their warranty.
That was good to know because I've got 3 new sets of Lyndall Gold pads sitting on the shelf out in the barn for the factory HD Brembo's.
Take a look at the Lyndall website and see what they say about what pads to use on their matrix rotors. Their first recomendation is the Red+, second recomendation is the gold pads. Keep i mind that the friction ring on the Matrix rotors is the same material on the Lyndall rotors.
http://www.lyndallbrakes.com/faqs/ (http://www.lyndallbrakes.com/faqs/)
Added link.
FWIW, I run the Red+ pads with my composite rotor (rear wheel) and the rotor looks almost new. My brother has a set of Lyndalls on the front of his dyna and runs the Gold+ pads, his rotors look pretty rough and probably should be replaced. My brother really likes how they perform.
But, just to test the waters, call Paul at Lyndall Racing Brakes and ask him for a recommendation for pads for use with his rotors. Ask him how the Gold pads would work.
:up:
thanks Ed...I'll get ahold of Paul and see what he has to say.
I think someone asked me what my bike was tacking after the chain conversion to the 3.27 gearing.
I rode the bike to work today on the interstate so I could answer it. The speedo calibration was corrected thru the TTS tuner for my 3.27 gearing.
At 65mph the bike is at 2800 rpm's...at 70mph it is at 3000 rpm's.
I tried running the red pads on my scoot. They didn't seem to be wearing in correctly so I switched to gold.
Quote from: No Cents on March 11, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Jeff @ Brake Tech said in the e-mail I received that the Brembo (P4 30/34) twin-pin 4-pot caliper is needed for his 320mm kit.
:up: Received a response to my email, Q & A below. My problem is I want to keep the HD-Brembos I have, so with no adapters available then it looks like Metal Matrix rotors.
My email to Brake Tech.Q: I see you have adapters so that 65mm Brembo Calipers can be fitted to HD Legs for use with 320mm rotors.
Do you have an adapter that would move the stock HD-Brembo Caliper (out & down) so that 320mm rotors could be used?
A: In short, no.
Only offer this for use with the Nissin caliper shod XR1200 and for those willing to convert to the Brembo (P4 30/34) twin-pin calipers in our Big Brake Kits:
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=109 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=109)
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111)
Pls also bear in mind, these are genuine full-floaters in the race design mode, so they are going to rattle a bit...
Quote from: FSG on March 12, 2014, 05:43:59 PM
Quote from: No Cents on March 11, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
Jeff @ Brake Tech said in the e-mail I received that the Brembo (P4 30/34) twin-pin 4-pot caliper is needed for his 320mm kit.
:up: Received a response to my email, Q & A below. My problem is I want to keep the HD-Brembos I have, so with no adapters available then it looks like Metal Matrix rotors.
My email to Brake Tech.
Q: I see you have adapters so that 65mm Brembo Calipers can be fitted to HD Legs for use with 320mm rotors.
Do you have an adapter that would move the stock HD-Brembo Caliper (out & down) so that 320mm rotors could be used?
A: In short, no.
Only offer this for use with the Nissin caliper shod XR1200 and for those willing to convert to the Brembo (P4 30/34) twin-pin calipers in our Big Brake Kits:
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=109 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=109)
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=111)
Pls also bear in mind, these are genuine full-floaters in the race design mode, so they are going to rattle a bit...
The noise is not that bad on the BrakeTech rotors but it is considerably more than the Lyndalls. I cant hear it on the road, but just rolling the bike around in the garage or spinning the wheel on the lift, they rattle pretty good. In comparison my bike with the Lyndalls is silent. As for floating, the Brake Tech rotors have ALLOT of side to side play and the Lyndalls have almost none. Not sure the Lyndall lug drive rotors should be classified as floaters.
The same thing I was told on the phone with Brake Tech yesterday FSG. They warned me about their rotors rattling and said most HD riders don't like this after they install their kit.
They told me the needed Brembo caliper part# to run with their 320mm kit.
Thumper...this might make you happy.
I bought these Lyndall Omega rotors for the front today. I found it on J&P Cycle on close out for $203.86...about 1/2 price...so I snatched it up. I got the last ones. :bike:
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Quote from: No Cents on March 13, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
Thumper...this might make you happy.
I bought these Lyndall Omega rotors for the front today. I found it on J&P Cycle on close out for $203.86...about 1/2 price...so I snatched it up. I got the last ones. :bike:
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Are those stainless or composite?
composite
Quote from: No Cents on March 13, 2014, 02:14:22 PM
Thumper...this might make you happy.
I bought these Lyndall Omega rotors for the front today. I found it on J&P Cycle on close out for $203.86...about 1/2 price...so I snatched it up. I got the last ones. :bike:
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Well, I guess they don't call them Omega for nothing.
Looks like a good deal. I hope they work out well for you. I can't speak to just the rotor change since I did the wheels at the same time, but I do notice a big difference with lightening up rotating parts.
No cents,
I'm doing a 124 now (r&r) and have to switch from my SE 58mm to the throttle hog 66mm, wondering how the low end response is and how you like it overall? Thanks.
I had the bike out today for a little while...and yes Max :potstir: ...it gets ridden and it is not a barn queen :hyst:
It is a true pleasure to ride. It puts a smile on my face every time I pull it out and run it thru the gears. The bike pulls from idle to the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. The 66mm T/Hog has not disappointed me in the least. I'm running 6.2 HPI injectors with it. There is absolutely "NO" hesitation anywhere. You can roll on the throttle from any rpm...from any gear...and it just delivers instant mind boggling power. The gearing change I did this past winter has made the bike a wheelie monster now. You can be rolling along in 1st gear at 2500-3000 rpm's and just blip the throttle and the front tire instantly lifts off the road. 2nd gear is a little scary... because you need to have it pointed straight because it will lift the tire in 2nd as easy as it does in 1st gear now.
Of course...Jim (strokerjlk) has it tuned to perfection...and a good tune is crucial to the power delivery.
Quote from: Crixus67 on March 15, 2014, 04:11:50 PM
No cents,
I'm doing a 124 now (r&r) and have to switch from my SE 58mm to the throttle hog 66mm, wondering how the low end response is and how you like it overall? Thanks.
you can run the se 58mm btw even with the R&R 124 and there heads just putting that out there
Quote from: No Cents on March 15, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
I had the bike out today for a little while...and yes Max :potstir: ...it gets ridden and it is not a barn queen :hyst:
It is a true pleasure to ride. It puts a smile on my face every time I pull it out and run it thru the gears. The bike pulls from idle to the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. The 66mm T/Hog has not disappointed me in the least. I'm running 6.2 HPI injectors with it. There is absolutely "NO" hesitation anywhere. You can roll on the throttle from any rpm...from any gear...and it just delivers instant mind boggling power. The gearing change I did this past winter has made the bike a wheelie monster now. You can be rolling along in 1st gear at 2500-3000 rpm's and just blip the throttle and the front tire instantly lifts off the road. 2nd gear is a little scary... because you need to have it pointed straight because it will lift the tire in 2nd as easy as it does in 1st gear now.
Of course...Jim (strokerjlk) has it tuned to perfection...and a good tune is crucial to the power delivery.
Excellent! Glad to hear that, that's what they told me to run as well 6.2
Quote from: WideWildGlide on March 15, 2014, 05:09:14 PM
Quote from: Crixus67 on March 15, 2014, 04:11:50 PM
No cents,
I'm doing a 124 now (r&r) and have to switch from my SE 58mm to the throttle hog 66mm, wondering how the low end response is and how you like it overall? Thanks.
you can run the se 58mm btw even with the R&R 124 and there heads just putting that out there
Are you sure wide glide? They said something about the motor being a little taller or wider so it wouldn't fit?! I'm going to shoot down there Monday and bring the 58 and see if it will work. Thanks for pointing this out.
we had to use a S&S adapter(it center the intake with there heads) which they sold us but it will line up correctly, is the SE 58mm as good as t-hog idk, they told us we could run it so we did yes the motor is taller we have to pull the front motor mount in order too pull/put the rear rocker arms on (the 2 bolts hold rocker arm support plate on the belt side where the issue i ran into on a Ultra Glide) you will enjoy the motor once you get it and tune we leave 150ft+ black marks with a 195/55R16zr car tire with stock gearing prob lem we ran into is getting to the shiftier to get into 2nd gear
That's good to know widewildglide. Disuse get the adaptor from S&s or from r&r? Yeah I can't wait to get this thing back in the bike.
ART at R&R is who we deal with but who every you been talking to just tell them what you want to do there very knowledge folks, just tell them what you want to do and they will set you up you will have to do a little grinding or hogging out the adapter just a hair to get them to fit around the manifold
Please feel free to PM me if need anything elese,so we dont take away from NoCent's Novel he is writing
Quote from: WideWildGlide on March 16, 2014, 06:53:17 PM
Please feel free to PM me if need anything elese,so we dont take away from NoCent's Novel he is writing
:hyst: ...it will definitely not make the best sellers list :hyst:
Quote from: WideWildGlide on March 15, 2014, 09:15:50 PM
we had to use a S&S adapter(it center the intake with there heads) which they sold us but it will line up correctly, is the SE 58mm as good as t-hog idk, they told us we could run it so we did yes the motor is taller we have to pull the front motor mount in order too pull/put the rear rocker arms on (the 2 bolts hold rocker arm support plate on the belt side where the issue i ran into on a Ultra Glide) you will enjoy the motor once you get it and tune we leave 150ft+ black marks with a 195/55R16zr car tire with stock gearing prob lem we ran into is getting to the shiftier to get into 2nd gear
How's the car tire working out ? I was always interested in going dark side on my 09 ultra with the 117.
Failer in are mind,but most issue we think are due to how the car tire lower the rear of the bike to much,it was also too wide and we notice it tend to sit closer to the left side of the fender wish we could space it out better but due too the abs ring idk how, durning burn out it would rub the left side of the (beltside)fender,also it lower the rear of the bike too much so overall the set-up was a fail unless we where talking about stright line perfomance the foot print was about 3x as much as a 200/60r17 motorcycle tire patch,we would like to retry it but will taller narrow tire,the bike put down 130/130 tire was also much much sticker almost like shinko stickness judging by how my foot was stopped when i ran it over the black marks
I finally got around to mounting the new 21" Shinko tire today along with the new Lyndall floating rotors and new Lyndall Gold pads.
It has way better front stopping power...and it is the difference of night and day with the lever feel and over all smoothness.
A very nice upgrade.
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Looks very nice Ray. I'm not much of a bagger fan but DAMN....you ride one VERY nice bagger. I got a message from wfo larry today. My heads and intake track are done and can be picked up tomorrow. He's had them quite a while but with him disassembling them and sending the bare head out to axtell for me I think they were on the back burner because he knew I was still doing pistons and all that. I messaged him the same night I got the pistons and cylinders done and told him I was done and ready for the heads and damned if he didn't get them done for me in less than 24 hours. I couldn't be happier. Thanks for the recommendation.
Larry is one of the best!
I sometimes think the man can walk on water.
He has probably forgot more than most will ever know.
Good luck on that monster.
You'll have to post us up a video of that beast when you get it done so we can hear those T7's making music to our ears.
That is SWEEEEEEET Looking Ray,You the Man..... :smiled:
Good Job Ray, i hope when you write your novel,you also release a picture books (dont forget the babes)
My rear EBC 10 button floating rear rotor finally showed up today. It was on back order...and was sitting at the back door when I got home from work today.
It came with a chrome center carrier...the only option for my bike. I sanded the chrome carrier up and painted it black. I like it better black...it will match the front ones a lot better.
I hope to have the time this weekend to put the bike up on the lift and get it mounted.
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Nice
If those brakes don't stop it the next step is a parachute.
:agree: I've seen them in black too... :unsure:
I e-mailed EBC and asked them if I could order the 10 button floating rear rotor carrier in black and the outside edge contoured rotor option also for my 08 FLHX. EBS told me that it wasn't available in a black carrier or a contoured rotor option for the 08 models that run the 11.8" rotors for some reason...they only offered them in chrome with the smooth outer rotor option.
I did see in their catalog where they offered floating rotors in black with the contoured edge for 11.5" rotors.
I did ask them if they had any future plans on making them in black with the contoured rotor for my model year...and they said no...at least no plans at this time. :nix:
Now all you need is that wheelie bar. Or that different cam, or an advance gear, or a little more compression, or synthetic oil.............? :scratch: :bike: Don't be offended. Just bustin' your chops.
Quote from: No Cents on March 28, 2014, 02:45:12 AM
I e-mailed EBC and asked them if I could order the 10 button floating rear rotor carrier in black and the outside edge contoured rotor option also for my 08 FLHX. EBS told me that it wasn't available in a black carrier or a contoured rotor option for the 08 models that run the 11.8" rotors for some reason...they only offered them in chrome with the smooth outer rotor option.
I did see in their catalog where they offered floating rotors in black with the contoured edge for 11.5" rotors.
I did ask them if they had any future plans on making them in black with the contoured rotor for my model year...and they said no...at least no plans at this time. :nix:
Makes no sense to me either....if they offered black I would already have some on the bike
:agree: John...it made no sense to me either. It would of been nice to get the rotor in black directly from EBC.
It's been raining outside all morning like a cow pissin on a flat rock...so I decided to got out into the barn and put the rear EBC floating rotor on. I bought 5 new 12 point ARP flange bolts to replace the factory bolts for mounting the rotor. I got the 7/16" heads on the bolts which came with the bigger flanges and they fit perfect in the rotors machined recess area for the bolts.
I really like the way it turned out...even though I had to paint the rotor carrier black. I used VHT 550* engine block paint on the rotor.
I got a little bit of the go fast with the engine...now hopefully with the new rotors all the way around along with the new brakes...it will have the stop fast too.
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:up:
Looks good.
Nice Job Ray. :chop:
It's been super nice outside the last few days so I have been practicing on my launching of the bike off the line getting ready to put it on the strip this year.
All was going well until I heard the engine change tone after a good hard 4K launch.
Here is what I did to the exhaust.
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It had just a sliver left holding it on to the collector. 9/10 of the weld around the housing completely broke. I was lucky it didn't come all the way off and get road rashed.
It looks like a trip back to the welders is in store. :doh:
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Holy "Potty mouth"....definetly could of been worse!
Ray, are you planning to build a bracket coming off the bag support to support the pipe ? next time it may break further up the pipe's
Might want to fab a bracket something like on a dyna to support the muffler part and still allow it to flex with the engine. That's a lot of weight to hang on the end of a weld on thin stainless. Bob
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BUMMER...... :crook:
Sorry to see that this happened. I would think that the change in tone would be an understatement. That wasn't one of your guys welds was it?
no Jay...this was the Burns weld from the collector to the muffler housing. It doesn't look like it had very good penetration...and gave up the ghost with the flogging I was giving it. Yeah...it got real loud...quickly :hyst:
I'll get my buddy to weld it back on a little better this time so I don't have to worry about that again.
The muffler housing weighs 3.53 pounds...so it's very light.
you can see it didn't have good penetration.
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muffler housing weight
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You need to support the cone , like we do on the dynas . Even with little weight the vibes will win every time . .. At least no one ran over it ...
Tell Burns to send you a new one.
That big Motor Wants to Run in the Open Header mode that's all.... :hyst: A little Retune By Strokerjlk You'll Be Set to Go..... :potstir: Too Much Power Get's You In Trouble Anyways.... :wink: Keep Us Posted
I was just making sure Ray. I got my collector welded up from Burns just the same as you did. I do have a "saddle" under the can to support the SMALL weight that it has. But if you think of it as others have stated, that weight and the length of it past your last support area will fatigue the weld in time.
Quote from: wfolarry on April 20, 2014, 03:02:52 PM
Tell Burns to send you a new one.
I don't think that's going to happen Larry....picking the winning lotto #'s maybe easier. :hyst:
I did send Vince @ Burns a couple of pictures of it...I'll see what he has to say about it.
I figure it will be easier to just let my buddy weld it up stronger so it will withstand the abuse.
My mounting bracket I have welded to the collector is good and solid...so I guess my hole shots vibrated the housing enough to snap the weld.
I'll see what my buddy thinks about beefing the weld up and possibly adding a piece of stainless flat stock from the housing back onto the collector for some additional support.
Quote from: FXDBI on April 20, 2014, 12:09:11 PM
Might want to fab a bracket something like on a dyna to support the muffler part and still allow it to flex with the engine. That's a lot of weight to hang on the end of a weld on thin stainless. Bob
:up: why the longer bagger models have additional support at the saddlebag. Your likely in between the 2 Ray. Supertrapp brakets for FXR's run between the trans and the back of the muffler. Might try something along that line.
I'm going to try to get over to my buddy's welding shop tomorrow.
We will put our heads together and try to figure something out to add some additional support to the housing.
I can't let this slow me down :hyst: I was having too much fun with it...before it broke. :angry:
Quote from: wfolarry on April 20, 2014, 03:02:52 PM
Tell Burns to send you a new one.
No kidding, it shouldn't be breaking at the weld.
I have two brackets on mine holding the pipe to engine and tranny. One is on the collector to tranny but nothing on the muffler itself. The muffler I run is much heavier than the burns and the weld is fine. My little bro the welder that did the pipe said the metal would crack before the weld would.
im a welder if the penetration is not full the weld crack before metal on stress there is a problem in the weld process in this case
weld on friday maybe .....
The weld was pretty on the outside...I just think it lacked a little penetration.
I'll hopefully find out today what my buddy says about welding it up so it won't happen again.
It clearly broke right in the middle of the weld...all the way around.
At least I was lucky enough that it had a little sliver holding it on to the collector and it didn't drag the ground or come off :emoGroan:
FWIW we fabbed up a bracket from an old TH bracket. Works great.
I'd still ask for a new one. If you had put it on when it was warm out when you would be riding the bike everyday it would have broke off in a week or two.
Vince @ Burns offered to re-weld this one today....but I had already dropped it off at my buddy's welding shop. He said that the weld didn't have proper penetration and he would take care of it for me.
He called me just before I got off of work and said to come get it he was done with it.
He beefed the weld up with a wider penetrating bead all the way around the housing to the collector, and he put a 1" wide strip of stainless on the back side and underneath side...where the housing meets the collector for additional strength.
I bolted it back together and took it for a ride. All seems good now.
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underneath and back side addition housing support strip 1" wide...welded on.
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on the road again...for now.
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Off topic, but is that some sort of chassis brace lurking behind the muffler?
yes
Love the pipe.
Let us know how it works.
Check this out no cents
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did you finally get your wheel Josh?
All I see is a black rim...they must of left some inners out and are not done making it yet...huh :hyst:
Looks way cool! :up:
It comes in next week with the neck kit and fender and rest of parts. That rim is 1 of 1 :smiled:
You'll be the only rooster in town with one of those rims...nobody else I know can afford that set up.
The rest of us are poor :hyst:
:hyst: :hyst: It is not that expensive :potstir: After i get back from Florida begins the project
Quote from: Hollywood on April 24, 2014, 06:59:17 AM
:hyst: :hyst: It is not that expensive :potstir: After i get back from Florida begins the project
Very nice! Who is making your wheels?
From the website:
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/50c0f237e4b0d4daf9f5db42/1354822201014/297653_230798033643498_1901985368_n.jpg?format=1000w)
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/50c0f208e4b07a6fbc51642e/1354822153425/250250_175372652519370_6486989_n.jpg?format=750w)
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/50c0f1cde4b0e21dd2e348ad/1354822094549/254928_175378379185464_6112719_n.jpg?format=750w)
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/50c0f0f9e4b04e30857f08f4/1354821883091/402664_279755998747701_1999774811_n.jpg?format=1000w)
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/518c7397e4b0b32a949d0f00/1368159128092/130211-Cameron-Jurow-030.jpg?format=750w)
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/502069b284ae954efd3040d3/t/518c7363e4b0887d9a393168/1368159077575/321479_470971102973287_1114437214_n.png?format=1000w)
I just wonder how hard it is to scratch them up?
Hollywood (Josh) told me last night that there is some kind of scratch resistant coating applied to the Lexan.
My man spent 5K on that 26" front wheel alone.
He is definitely a rooster in the hen house :hyst:
All I heard at bike night last night after he won the split the pot is: "SHOTS FOR EVERYONE" :emoGroan:
My head is hurting this morning :hyst:
Mad Wheels(Doug Mcgoon) He hooked me up! He doesnt want to build them anymore because of the expense and time he puts into them. So for anybody else he charges 8k for that rim. He put a step lip on mine so it is the only 26 with that lip. I think i woke up this morning drunk still :sick: LATE NIGHT!!!!!!
If ya got it, spend it..
Looks nice, specially the baggers.
I am hoping it will look good. I spend too much money :banghead: I wanted something barely anybody has
Quote from: Hollywood on April 25, 2014, 07:00:05 AM
I am hoping it will look good. I spend too much money :banghead: I wanted something barely anybody has
You got it..
I myself, never wanted to attract too much attention but, for good reason.
My moto is run under the radar when you can...
If some punk decides to mess with the wheels, you can vent on him good.... :doh:
I'd worry about the touchy, feely people who are around your bike when you are not there. They might want to reach out and touch them wheels and I wouldn't want anyone touching my bike. But I'm just that way.
They are original but how will they wear in the long term with that kind of cash invested? Brake dust, road grime, ect. I am pretty anal about cleaning my wheels and what I use to get the film off of them.
You really can't enjoy something if you have to worry about it all the time.
well men I didn't post on why I think my muffler housing weld broke in the middle of it like it did.
What I found is when I took the exhaust off to get it welded back up was my tranny bracket that mounts to the two bottom tranny holes was very loose (only finger tight)...which was causing the extra vibration to be transferred back to the muffler housing because my collector has a solid mounting bracket welded down the side of it so I can drop a bolt thru it to bolt it to the tranny bracket and hold them together. With the tranny bracket being loose it was transferring all this extra vibration straight back to the muffler housing itself.
When I backed the bolts out of the tranny...some of the threads came out with both bolts. So I drilled and taped the two holes out and put Heli-Coil inserts in both holes. The bracket is solid as a rock now and the muffler housing seems to be very stable with very little vibration going to it.
I'll keep a close eye on it to make sure everything stays good and tight. I think this is what caused the original weld to fail the way it did.
Quote from: No Cents on April 26, 2014, 09:03:25 AM
well men I didn't post on why I think my muffler housing weld broke in the middle of it like it did.
What I found is when I took the exhaust off to get it welded back up was my tranny bracket that mounts to the two bottom tranny holes was very loose (only finger tight)...which was causing the extra vibration to be transferred back to the muffler housing because my collector has a solid mounting bracket welded down the side of it so I can drop a bolt thru it to bolt it to the tranny bracket and hold them together. With the tranny bracket being loose it was transferring all this extra vibration straight back to the muffler housing itself.
When I backed the bolts out of the tranny...some of the threads came out with both bolts. So I drilled and taped the two holes out and put Heli-Coil inserts in both holes. The bracket is solid as a rock now and the muffler housing seems to be very stable with very little vibration going to it.
I'll keep a close eye on it to make sure everything stays good and tight. I think this is what caused the original weld to fail the way it did.
:up: Like Forrest Gump said, $hit happens.... sometimes.... :wink:
:up: Like Forrest Gump said, $hit happens.... sometimes.... :wink:
[/quote]
Yup, and if it happens again or trans mount come loose, then you know the vibration going the opposite cause the break.
Loctite (blue) a Harley's best friend... :hyst:
If the bracket is black powder coated or coated in general. You might have a problem having it stay tight with out removing the coating from the faying surface. I have seen this a couple of time on 09 and up powered coated front engine mounts.
When I made the tranny bracket out of 304 stainless...I painted it black with a rattle can on both sides and installed it with blue Loctite on the bolts. It wore the paint off the back side of it from being loose. I didn't re-paint it...just bolted it back on after Heli-Coiling the bolt holes and I used red Loctite this time.
I've put about 400 miles on the bike since I had the muffler housing welded back together. I check it every time I get off it and everything is rock solid still.
Knock on wood...hopefully this fixed it.
Quote from: No Cents on April 26, 2014, 12:06:08 PM
When I made the tranny bracket out of 304 stainless...I painted it black with a rattle can on both sides and installed it with blue Loctite on the bolts. It wore the paint off the back side of it from being loose. I didn't re-paint it...just bolted it back on after Heli-Coiling the bolt holes and I used red Loctite this time.
I've put about 400 miles on the bike since I had the muffler housing welded back together. I check it every time I get off it and everything is rock solid still.
Knock on wood...hopefully this fixed it.
Man Red Loctite should only be used for things that will never come apart unless you use a blowtorch.
Blue should of worked fine.
I saw a picture of a 21 that had 50k miles on it and it looked brand new. I will have about 9k in the front end. I just have a problem with pulling up to bike night and seeing 10 bikes like mine this way I know I won't see one. I am having a 135ci motor built for it after randy gets his
Quote from: Hollywood on April 27, 2014, 06:13:10 PM
I saw a picture of a 21 that had 50k miles on it and it looked brand new. I will have about 9k in the front end. I just have a problem with pulling up to bike night and seeing 10 bikes like mine this way I know I won't see one. I am having a 135ci motor built for it after randy gets his
why don't you drop me off a bag full of that money over here at my house Hollywood. :potstir:
I could start building my next little project to let it out of the bag too :hyst:
I still have to figure out how to raise the backbone...a little bit [attach=0]
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Raise the back bone here we go :potstir:
Let me get that stage 3 beast off u and I will drop it off :potstir: and you better not build a 145 I will be :angry: you know that's what I wanted to have
who...me [attach=0]
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You won't do it you don't have the balls :potstir: it's already a wheelie machine
it's already in the works...and no it's not going to be a 145"er :smiled: just kidding....I'm going back to a little stock 103"er...this hp crap ain't what it's cut out to be :potstir:
but I want one like this
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What size is that
R&R makes a nice little Billet 155". :potstir:
You know if you get the 160" motor, someone will come out with a 165"!
When was the first motorcycle race held?
When the second motorcycle was built.
Only reson i am not going 145'er is because of the back bone issue and it not fitting unless you modify it. If it was not for that i would have one so the 135 will have to do
:pop: :beer: :beer:
Quote from: Hollywood on April 28, 2014, 04:39:37 AM
You won't do it you don't have the balls :potstir: it's already a wheelie machine
I know it's turned into a wheelie machine now with this sticky tire on it.
That's why I'm going back to a lil stock motor...no balls :hyst:
On a serious note:
I'm very happy with this little 124...it has brought more smiles to my face than I could of ever dreamed of. I might have to go to a harder compound tire to keep the front end down on the ground...where it belongs.
The wheels are turning in my head for my next project...it might not be this winter...but I can honestly say that what ever I build will fit into my frame without cutting on it.
Hell Josh...your going to have Guy cut the neck off that bike for that raked neck for the 26" wheel.
You might as well have him raise that back bone at the same time and have it ready to slip a 145"er in :potstir:
Star Racing will sell you a bolt in 145 for that bike...you know. :smilep:
You goin with a stock motor is like Randy sticking with a bike more than a year it aint gonna happen :hyst:
How much is that star motor?
Star Racing's 145"er is around $8995.00 if memory serves me correct...un-assembled and you have to get an induction system.
(800)841-7827
Ray, any idea who makes that induction system? :idea: :teeth: -Tutt
Hi "A"...nice to see you posting!
My guess if it was going to be a B2 head monster...a 70mm T/Hog would be up to the plate. :nix:
Looking down the road at a 131 4 3/8ths square bore. Problems are cam choice (thinking S&S 675 Easy Start?), exhaust choice (Wegner or Guppie if available?), and intake choice for that size in a light weight 2009 Dyna project. Wanting a 6250-6400 rpm redline and pulling all the way to the end. Considering lightened flywheels from Star and S&S. Don't want that much low end TQ as only makes the tire spin coming out of the corners. Already have great suspension. Better front brake would be advisable! :bike: -A-
Quote from: CowboyTutt on April 30, 2014, 06:28:11 PM
Looking down the road at a 131 4 3/8ths square bore. Problems are cam choice (thinking S&S 675 Easy Start?), exhaust choice (Wegner or Guppie if available?), and intake choice for that size in a light weight 2009 Dyna project. Wanting a 6250-6400 rpm redline and pulling all the way to the end. Considering lightened flywheels from Star and S&S. Don't want that much low end TQ as only makes the tire spin coming out of the corners. Already have great suspension. Better front brake would be advisable! :bike: -A-
:up: :up:
go for it "A" ...sounds like a plan!
You guys all remember the ice that we had to drive on this past winter. Why bring that driving tactic to your bikes in the summer? Don't get me wrong, I love the power. But if you can't make it stick, what's the point? I'm kind of lost on the upgrade of a wheelie machine. Set me straight Ray.
Jay...with the soft Pirelli Angel GT tire on the rear it just wants to lift the front end off the ground if I twist on it half way hard.
I can't get it to launch off the line yet without it wheeling. The back tire just flat out hooks up and don't spin at all...even with 36 pounds of air pressure in it. I've tried everything between 4K down to 3200 rpm's...with pretty much not being able to keep the front end down on the ground and me damn near laying on the tank. I'm thinking this tire might be a little too soft if that is possible. I can't even image what it would be like if I dropped the air pressure in it and tried to launch it.
I was out playing on it tonight a little bit. I can be just rolling along in 2nd gear and grab a fist full of throttle and it just yanks the front tire off the ground and carries it until you hit 3rd gear. It's hooked up for sure...but wouldn't it be a little better if I could keep the front end down somehow and let it carry that power to the ground?
That's why I suggested getting a longer wheelbase. A longer swing arm and rear shocks for that setup should keep you more well grounded. Hit it hard and move forward is what you want isn't it? I would like to hear from the bagger crowd about how to tame a ripper such as yours.
Later on if I was to turn this bike into a serious strip only bike...I think I would have to look into a longer swing arm and lengthening the wheel base some. I think that would help it a lot.
But right now it's also my daily rider and it's a ton of fun to ride as long as I don't try to twist on it too hard.
I still have to do a lot of practicing to see what will work best for it. I would like to bring it off the line harder...and be able to stay in it.
I've still not been able to go WOT with it in any gear...so there is more in it that I haven't even had the opportunity to experience yet to know what it's full potential even is.
I will say this for it...it's definitely hooking up right now like it has never done in the past.
Sounds like it just needs to be setup. If you're not into corner carving lower the front end. The lower it is the less it will wheelie. Only downside is if it does wheelie there's not much to absorb it when it comes down so you want to stay in the throttle. Put a strap on the front too. When you're ready to launch it just stand up grab the front brake and yank the strap and slam the front end. You want to avoid weight transfer to the back. When you're going to launch it or race it stiffen up the rear shocks, maybe run a seat that pushes you farther forward. Maybe an air ride setup on the back would work well on a bagger? You could slam it on the fly when you pull up to a stop. You could add a link to the chain and make sure the axle is as far back in the swingarm as possible. There's a lot of ways to improve a stock length bike. When setup in daily rider trim my bike acts like you describe but I can control it pretty well. If I launch it or stab it in first and shift it without the clutch the front end doesn't touch the ground til I click 4th but I'm full throttle almost the whole time, it's still accelerating hard. When setup with most of the stuff I just mentioned I can launch it hard and it will barely wheelie, becomes a whole different animal. Not as much fun but a lot faster.
I do see that RB Racing offers there swing arm mod in 4"&6" over!
Christ Ray I'd like to be around just to pick up the chit you get bored with....
Mark
come on groundhog135...spill the beans to everyone on that thing you got in the works :potstir:
I'm sure inquiring minds on here would like to know :smilep:
Quote from: HighLiner on May 01, 2014, 06:11:57 AM
I do see that RB Racing offers there swing arm mod in 4"&6" over!
And it weighs a ton. Heck, the oem length bagger arm can be used to anchor medium sized ships. 4"-6" extensions would be, well much heavier in a place that we do not want to add weight.
Several companies make quality, lightweight, aluminum swingarms in just about any length the customer wants.
I have an avon on the rear, very soft, always hooks. I've never had wheelie problems at all. Maybe you're making more power down low than me, but I can be in first gear at 3000rpm and crack it WOT, it just sling shots straight and on the ground. Only time the front comes up a tiny bit is durning shifts.
I have very hard springs in the rear, mine rides like a soft tail in the back, but never stands up as hard as I beat on it. I'll try setup the go pro and make a little vid of some blasts.
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of things that makes the front end want to come up as easy as it does now.
I did a chain conversion this past winter and went to a 3.27 final ratio from the 3.15 ratio I had with the belt. This gear ratio change along with this softer tire has the bike putting everything to the ground with very little tire spin. It's translating the power now into wanting to lift the front tire with this added traction. I'm not saying this is a bad thing...but I didn't expect it to be such a drastic change.
I'm going to have to learn to adapt to these changes...it's not the same bike that I parked when winter hit last year.
Quote from: No Cents on May 03, 2014, 07:52:22 AM
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of things that makes the front end want to come up as easy as it does now.
I did a chain conversion this past winter and went to a 3.27 final ratio from the 3.15 ratio I had with the belt. This gear ratio change along with this softer tire has the bike putting everything to the ground with very little tire spin. It's translating the power now into wanting to lift the front tire with this added traction. I'm not saying this is a bad thing...but I didn't expect it to be such a drastic change.
I'm going to have to learn to adapt to these changes...it's not the same bike that I parked when winter hit last year.
Just enjoy and try to keep the bugs out of your smiling mouth. :soda:
:up:
that's the plan. I'm liking my bike more and more as I get quality seat time on it...but the damn bugs are tasting awful :teeth:
now it's time for me to start worrying and losing sleep at night :doh: This is my worst nightmare coming true :banghead:
My son just brought this home from a yard sale in the back of his pick up truck. He paid $350.00 for it with a clear title. It's a 1997 Yamaha FZR 600 crotch rocket with 15,000 miles on it. It needs some work and it's "thank God not running"...but he said he is going to fix it up and having it purring like a kitten in no time...yea right :doh:
Now there goes the neighborhood
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with this he can make whellie with his dad :oops:
Quote from: No Cents on May 03, 2014, 10:54:15 AM
now it's time for me to start worrying and losing sleep at night :doh: This is my worst nightmare coming true :banghead:
My son just brought this home from a yard sale in the back of his pick up truck. He paid $350.00 for it with a clear title. It's a 1997 Yamaha FZR 600 crotch rocket with 15,000 miles on it. It needs some work and it's "thank God not running"...but he said he is going to fix it up and having it purring like a kitten in no time...yea right :doh:
Now there goes the neighborhood
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That looks like allot of fun and it's where most harley riders started.
Early FZR's were nice bikes with good handling. A bonus is they are not nearly as powerful as the current crop of 600's so it's a good learner bike and a great price.
:slap:
I couldn't take it watching him struggle with trying to work on it. I went out and helped him and I got it running in about 20 minutes.
I sounds excellent for the short time we had it running. When we started it...oil poured out from behind the clutch cover. I took that off and the front chain sprocket to get to the clutch p/rod. It was broke off and about an inch long piece stayed in the ramp in the cover and the long part of the clutch rod stayed inside. I pulled the oil seal off that goes around the clutch rod where most of the p/rod was still inside. I used a welders magnet with a ball end allen wrench layed across it and was able to put it up against the p/rod down in the hole and got it out far enough so I could grab it with my fingers...we got lucky there.
So now he has his parts lists ready for fixing this rig and being able to get it out on the road. :doh:
I should of just set back and watched him bang his head on it for a week or two. :hyst: what was I thinkin...hey that's a song isn't it? :hyst:
Ray I feel your pain,my son came home with a Duc 1198.172 hp,360 lbs.I took it down the road and will never swing a leg over that again.Felt like a pretzel,all twisted up.But we ride together and its a plus.All we can do is show them the path and hope they stay on it.Good luck to him.
Rode an R1 once, I think it was an 05 or 06. No desire to do it again as the mere memory still brings on an involuntary pucker.
I think the original owner felt the same way as I doubt it has 3000 miles on it and has been sitting for years.
Mark
my son is 23 years old and he is at that age where he is still doing everything @ WOT in his life. I have to tell him to slow down all the time. He has rode my Low Rider with us in a group of bikes a few times and he's even tried to turn the wick up on that bike...which is bone stock. My fear is he will try to do the same with this crotch rocket and he will push it to it limits. He has rode some sort of two wheeler most of his life...but that won't stop me from worrying about him on one of the crotch rockets. They scare the hell out of me and I never did want him to straddle one of his own! :doh:
I tried to talk him into buying a Harley...but he would have no part of it.
I know I have to put my trust in him because he is a young man and he can make his own decisions in life...I just don't agree with this one.
He works third shift at the airport for DHL and he plans on riding the bike to work. It's about a twenty five mile trip one way for him to go to work...if you add in the darkness and all the deer around here...plus his thrill for speed...I can see many sleepless nights ahead for me worrying about if he made it to work alright. :emoGroan:
All you can do is try to make sure he wears a full face helmet and some body armor. Stories like this make me glad that I have daughters. Then again, that comes with it's own issues. :emoGroan:
:agree:
that was the first thing I told him...you have to buy a full face helmet in order to be able to ride that thing out of your mom's garage.
My son is the baby...and I have two older daughters...so I know perfectly well what your talking about.
Them girls do stress a man out...especially when they get into their teenage years :emoGroan: I'm glad I survived that.
They are both grown now and out on their own and they have started their own families.
Now I have to battle all the grand kids...and they always win! :hyst:
Ray- I can only imagine your worries over your boy. If it makes you feel any better, at 16 I managed to snag an 88 Honda Interceptor 1000. I turned out (relatively) fine. :hyst:
Theres a 2008 Gsxr1000 in the garage that the wife rides. I wont touch it. Im trouble enough on a 110/110ish bagger......
Ray, as he's a youngster, why not encourage, and pay his way to an MC safety foundations class? The Great Oaks Schools have them. I asked my son to take it, and he did before he and I rode across the US. He was 34 at the time, and had not risen in at least 10 years. He learned a lot.
He will take the coarse if my wifeepooh has anything to do with it.
The wifeepooh took her coarse about 5-6 years ago when she finally decided to ride solo and get off the back of mine...so I'm pretty sure she will make him take it.
http://project1201.ducati.com/explore?__utma=214671746.859041513.1399251888.1399251888.1399251888.1&__utmb=214671746.1.10.1399251888&__utmc=214671746&__utmx=-&__utmz=214671746.1399251888.1.1.utmcsr=bing (http://project1201.ducati.com/explore?__utma=214671746.859041513.1399251888.1399251888.1399251888.1&__utmb=214671746.1.10.1399251888&__utmc=214671746&__utmx=-&__utmz=214671746.1399251888.1.1.utmcsr=bing)|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=ducati&__utmv=-&__utmk=175064417
We are just dicking around in the HD world.
With any luck this phase will pass. I'm 26 and like nothing more than to play with my Hd weather its pulling it apart or riding it.
Make a mental note... don't pick on Ducati 1199 Superleggera :embarrassed:
This is why my buddy Bill at Bore-Tech humors me in the HD world. He's built some truly fast bikes, at half the motor size of most of our big bore motors. However he does respect any bike that shows extraordinary power for it's design / type.
Quote from: 03NhHarley on May 04, 2014, 06:13:45 PM
With any luck this phase will pass. I'm 26 and like nothing more than to play with my Hd weather its pulling it apart or riding it.
I ride Harley style because they are easy to work on and supported by the aftermarket. That Duc is one bad ass bike. It's 400 lbs! For $65,000 I expect it to be.
and 13.2:1 compression and over 200 hp.
The key as mention as well is the weight. Our average bagger, with 140 HP has a power to weight ratio of 5.71 pounds per HP. That Ducati has 1.90 pounds per HP.
Even if the HP in the two bikes were the same, the Ducati would kill the HD.
But this is the reason that we spend so much time and money to make something that is so old in engineering, perform in ways that were never thought of from the onset.
I'll pick up more women on my HD than any Ducati riding around and THAT is RWHP at it's best. lol
No decent woman will want to be hunched over, if she can even fit on a Duc.
Those little men on those little bikes in their clown suits..... :hyst:
Actually, my oldest bought one and loves it.
His wife wants him to sell it and get an HD......
Quote from: jam65 on May 04, 2014, 07:13:09 PM
But this is the reason that we spend so much time and money to make something that is so old in engineering, perform in ways that were never thought of from the onset.
Exactly, which is all well and good until we do that then proclaim it a pos when it breaks. :banghead:
- Mark
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on May 05, 2014, 04:32:55 AM
Quote from: jam65 on May 04, 2014, 07:13:09 PM
But this is the reason that we spend so much time and money to make something that is so old in engineering, perform in ways that were never thought of from the onset.
Exactly, which is all well and good until we do that then proclaim it a pos when it breaks. :banghead:
- Mark
That's part of the mystique... :hyst:
Sportbike performance numbers-
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers)
Most of these sportbikes are 10 and 11 second bikes, (only a handful of 9 second bikes) and these numbers are with a PRO rider...
The vast majority of sportbike rider squids on the street or who take their stock sportbikes to the dragstrip turn a 9 second bike into a 10 second bike and run 11's on a 10 second sportbike.
I have smoked enough of them and watched them ride to know. The majority wheelie, get out of shape, miss shifts and simply don't know how to launch a short wheelbase, high revving sport bike. Modified bikes and top level riders are another story- they own v twins...
I know a guy with a Ducati who gets owned when we play from a light.
He leaves me in another zip code when we top end freeway or canyon curve...
Different types of bikes for different purposes...
:agree:
I send this link to many of my CRocket friends... The link in the HTT post takes a few moments to load/start, but it's funny and worth it...
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,44928.msg466996.html#msg466996 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,44928.msg466996.html#msg466996)
I know a kid that runs 8.80's on a stock Busa motor , 12" arm , street tire
Weighing 120 lbs helps
Totally agree knowing how to launch them is pretty key. But just as many HD riders aren't experts at launching them either. Modify a sport bikes gearing for 1/4 mile makes a load of difference as well.
Quote from: strokerjlk on May 05, 2014, 11:54:29 AM
I know a kid that runs 8.80's on a stock Busa motor , 12" arm , street tire
Weighing 120 lbs helps
Super light kid, knows how to ride, 12" arm, maybe shift kit, ignition, pipe, lowered, even more??
Has to be more than just an arm...
Here is me in right lane running against a Busa on my FXR street bike.
He had an electric shifter, arm, pipe, different ignition, etc...
Mid 9's- No where near 8.80's...
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/189/first9secondpass001.jpg)
To be clear, as I said in the above post, I was referring to stock factory sport bikes-
Quote from: pwmorris on May 05, 2014, 11:00:24 AM
Sportbike performance numbers-
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers)
"The majority wheelie, get out of shape, miss shifts and simply don't know how to launch a short wheelbase, high revving sport bike. Modified bikes and top level riders are another story- they own v twins..."
Yea he is fearless and knows how to run the groove .
Gears , pipe , tune , air over electric shifter , wheels and carbon fiber panels .
All the stuff you need to race a street bike and be competitive.
Ray make sure along with that helmet he gets a descent jacket, gloves, boots and at least kevlar jeans.
Some may never get over sports bikes and always have one along with a harley in the garage. (like me)
As far as fast goes a quick Japper can be had for far less $$ than a HD. My stock motor zx14R is a pretty quick bike with just arm extensions and front strap. takes me 1 hr to get it ready for the strip and does 9.8's and I can't ride for "Potty mouth".
They are a bitch to work on though, I could have the HD heads off in the time it takes to change the plugs on the ZX.
Ride with him some and it may keep him in check as long as you can keep yourself in check
And always remember that the apple never falls too far from the tree. :teeth:
Damn a .000 reaction time, didn't leave anything on the table... :smiled: :beer: :beer: :beer:
Quote from: pwmorris on May 05, 2014, 01:40:27 PM
Here is me in right lane running against a Busa on my FXR street bike.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/189/first9secondpass001.jpg)
Exactly, which is all well and good until we do that then proclaim it a pos when it breaks. :banghead:
- Mark
[/quote]
My bike will never be a POS as long as I work on it. That would make my mechanical abilities look bad. :hyst:
And Jim, I won't be fielding any comments from you at this time. :wink:
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.... Sorry Ray.
Quote from: pwmorris on May 05, 2014, 11:00:24 AM
Sportbike performance numbers-
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers)
Most of these sportbikes are 10 and 11 second bikes, (only a handful of 9 second bikes) and these numbers are with a PRO rider...
The vast majority of sportbike rider squids on the street or who take their stock sportbikes to the dragstrip turn a 9 second bike into a 10 second bike and run 11's on a 10 second sportbike.
I have smoked enough of them and watched them ride to know. The majority wheelie, get out of shape, miss shifts and simply don't know how to launch a short wheelbase, high revving sport bike. Modified bikes and top level riders are another story- they own v twins...
I know a guy with a Ducati who gets owned when we play from a light.
He leaves me in another zip code when we top end freeway or canyon curve...
Different types of bikes for different purposes...
I grew up on Kawasaki's from triples in the 70's to the ZX12R in 2000. My Harley is the slowest bike I've owned but I can pull the average rider out of the hole and I don't have to worry about my Fatbob coming over on me :) I recently had a stretched Busa watch me shift into 2nd & 3rd.. I did know when to let off too..
the son finally got his parts in yesterday for his Yamaha. We replaced the clutch rod and adjusted the clutch, chain and pretty much went over it head to toe. It's running great and he is happier than a pig in -*-*.
So today I started working on a little project for the Duracell.
Can you guess what it is?
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Its a breather!! Carb intake!!Buffalo
excellent guess!
It's going to be my home made version of a SE heavy breather. I will match the 66mm T/Hog's bore with the hole in the backing plate I will machine. I've got to decide whether to make the backing plate out of 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum plate. The mandrel bent tubing will be .065 wall aluminum.
I'm going to have to do some research to find what length works best for the leg going to the filter. I guess this is all about runner length. :nix:
Hopefully one of you smart guys can give me some ideas for lengths that will work best.
I'm thinking about using a pretty good sized oval tapered K&N air filter...part# RX-5090...which also breaths thru the front of it.
I'm also going to stop by Exotx air filters manufacturing shop tomorrow and see if they have a filter like this K&N...or see if he can make me one.
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Outstanding Nocents, I've been waiting for someone to ignore t/b placement while adding intake length, even if you did so based on the constraints of design.
6,500 rpm, first wave about 22", second ... third ...
http://www.swartzracingmanifolds.com/tech/index.htm (http://www.swartzracingmanifolds.com/tech/index.htm)
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24120 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24120)
http://www.wallaceracing.com/intake-runner-length.php (http://www.wallaceracing.com/intake-runner-length.php)
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php (http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php)
Quote from: pwmorris on May 05, 2014, 11:00:24 AM
Sportbike performance numbers-
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers)
Most of these sportbikes are 10 and 11 second bikes, (only a handful of 9 second bikes) and these numbers are with a PRO rider...
The vast majority of sportbike rider squids on the street or who take their stock sportbikes to the dragstrip turn a 9 second bike into a 10 second bike and run 11's on a 10 second sportbike.
I have smoked enough of them and watched them ride to know. The majority wheelie, get out of shape, miss shifts and simply don't know how to launch a short wheelbase, high revving sport bike. Modified bikes and top level riders are another story- they own v twins...
I know a guy with a Ducati who gets owned when we play from a light.
He leaves me in another zip code when we top end freeway or canyon curve...
Different types of bikes for different purposes...
Yep Paul I agree with everything stated above. This is more an observation on the ability of the average sport bike rider to drag race than the potential of these bikes. That said it is truly awesome to watch Jeremy Teasley turn a 8.60/160+ 1/4 on a stock wheelbase stock motor ZX14R (no internal motor mods except clutch). I love my Harley, but I have to appreciate the astounding advances in technology, performance, and reliability made by sport bikes in the last 30 years. 99 + % of the riders who own these bikes are not capable of realizing the full potential of them. That was certainly true of me. :hug:
Quote from: No Cents on May 04, 2014, 03:40:55 PM
:agree:
that was the first thing I told him...you have to buy a full face helmet in order to be able to ride that thing out of your mom's garage.
My son is the baby...and I have two older daughters...so I know perfectly well what your talking about.
Them girls do stress a man out...especially when they get into their teenage years :emoGroan: I'm glad I survived that.
They are both grown now and out on their own and they have started their own families.
Now I have to battle all the grand kids...and they always win! :hyst:
Similar boat here . . . always lose against my 4 GRANDAUGHTERS (I never had a dang chance). I also went through ALL THREE daughters/stepdaughters and their Mom getting bikes :crook: They all took the MSF course (I used to be an instructor), geared properly and it was STILL a gut busting moment to watch them leave on their first real rides without me along as tail gunner. Talk about acid indigestion!!!
Current stepson has gone from MSF course to older Kaw 500 Ninja and finally his current older ZZR 1200. Spent many hours with him doing parking lot practice using a paper cup course. Now he can u-turn that mile long 1200 at walking speed in two parking spaces.
Good luck with the son . . . its is scary, it is also gratifying and rewarding to know you sent 'em out as prepared as possible. Note, one of the daughters had her future husband try to talk her out of riding several years ago . . . to zero effect. She just traded her BMS GS650 for a GS1200 . . . that's my girl! :koolaid1:
I made a little head way on my heavy breather today.
I just need to take it to my welder and have him weld the tubing to the backing plate I made.
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a couple more shots.
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Looks good 'Cents! I also like the patina your exhaust is changing into. Very nice. -Tutt
Very nice! Sure would like to know where you got that 2 3/4" tubing from.
I got the 2 3/4" OD 90* mandrel bent aluminum tubing off E-Bay for $20.00. I got my 3/8" aluminum plate for the backing plate off there too for $9.00.
I got a total of $29.00 in it so far...and about three hours in making the backing plate out in the barn.
My K&N filter is going to cost me $70.00.
I decided to go with this K&N filter RX-4870
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Ray, I have pretty much the same set up that I have not used yet. I am still scratching my head as how to support the weight of the air cleaner hanging all the way out there.
I thought about that Jay...that's why I'm having the tubing welded to the backing plate.
Hopefully it will be strong enough to hold the weight of the filter and the tubing wall is 16 gauge thick...same as my exhaust.
The filter weighs just 1.4 lbs.
I am also thinking about an air dam/scoop around the base of the air cleaner to slow down the air flow around the filter element.
The biggest improvement to this whole idea is to get the throttle body as far away from the intake tract as possible. That is where the velocity of air flow really comes into play as far as what I have seen. The butterfly in the throttle body needs to be way ahead to let the incoming air charge reach it's potential. :scratch:
This way of thinking is coming off of the video of JBV's Bonneville bike video. And this is to tune a bike running at a specific top end RPM.
I was thinking of maybe adding this to the engine side of the end of the tubing...but I think my filter will be out far enough forward that it won't be pulling in any heat off the exhaust or engine...but this is always an option that can be added later if I need it.
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All this time I thought that was a snazzy cup holder.
Looks good Ray :up:
Jay I wasn't trying to do anything extreme like the JBV Racing Bonneville set up...but that was way cool what they made for that bike.
I was hoping that if it had an open ended air filter like the K&N filter I'll be using...that it would catch more cool air and force it down the tubing directly into the t/body.
I talked to Jim before starting this little project and I asked him if he has noticed any gains when running a heavy breather type system vs a filter set up like I currently use. He said yes...and he said my current set up I'm running lost me about 4 hp.
So I figured I would try to make one and give it a shot.
I wanted it to have the tubing size large enough to be able to match up to my 66mm T/Hogs bore and have all the parts work together and basically have no reduction in size and have it flow with no obstructions...kind of a ram air set up. :hyst:
I like it! It will add more of your personal touch on form and function.
I didn't weigh my current air cleaner system...but this intake (backing plate and tubing) only weighs in at 1.004 lbs.
The air filter I'll be using with it weighs in @ 1.4 lbs.
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Nice NOCENTECH scale. :hyst:
Quote from: jam65 on May 17, 2014, 01:15:21 PM
Nice NOCENTECH scale. :hyst:
:doh: I didn't even notice that...way too funny :hyst:
Looking at your current configuration makes me wonder if it was larger at the filter end, with a gradual taper, would increase the air velocity enough to act like a tunnel ram. IDK, but it might be worth the time to fab up a second one.
:agree: It would probably increase air velocity with a tapered tube...but I don't have a clue where I could find a piece of aluminum 2 3/4" OD tubing that increases in size and is mandrel bent with a 90* bend.
If you know where I can find some...let me know...I'd make another one.
Just something to think about:
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/0703sr_fabricating_tapered_cones/ (http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/0703sr_fabricating_tapered_cones/)
http://video.handymanclub.com/video/Hand-Bending-Metal-Tubing (http://video.handymanclub.com/video/Hand-Bending-Metal-Tubing)
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-bend-pipe-without-a-pipe-bender/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-bend-pipe-without-a-pipe-bender/)
Not really related but just for laughs, here's a pic of my 01 Dyna set up with a Magnacharger and air to air intercooling! The intake tract was made from 2 1/2" stainless steel. Intercooler/airfilter on the left side, plumbed down the front and back up to the 42mm Mikuni carb. It reduced the incoming air charge by 30 degrees, actually forming ice crystals on the tube in fron of the carb on cooler days. Approx 130hp/130t at 6500 at 12lbs boost. Very effective BMW beater!! hehe. Buffalo
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I rode a R6 and R1 most of my riding experience and honestly its a matter of time before something bad happens. I had 3 friends die and one had to learn to rewalk after going down. Any where we rode was 120mph splitting semis on the highway riding wheelies for miles and eventually you get the point where you have to get out or something bad is going to happen. That is why i went to a harley. Its fun while it lasted tho! Ray only thing i can say is teach the boy to ride and he will try to do wheelies( i dont think he can on that bike) but he will try and understand that you were once there if not still lol
I got my backing plate with the tube welded on it back from the welder today.
I painted the backing plate trying to keep the color theme on the bike...a contrast cut.
The K&N air filter arrives tomorrow.
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excuse the mess on the floor...the wind was blowing stuff off the trees straight in the barn door.
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Looks good Ray :up:
Look real nice Ray, you'll be doing some more polishing now tho! Buffalo
Ray, there was a thread here a while back that the question came up about why HPI was "fluting" the entrance "mouth" of their throttle body's. I phoned and talked to someone there (it may have been Jimmy Light IIRC) and he said they were doing that to straighten out the flow coming in off the Heavy Breather style air cleaners lots of guys are using now. They found it necessary to properly set up the flow coming off the bend. That, along with the stuff Max found when flowing at the head with oversize manifold to a smaller head port appearing to cause a turbulence coming off the "step" into the smaller head port (as opposed to the other way around) may be worth looking into. It appears by the photos you may have a larger breather pipe to 62MM throttle body. It may be that you can take advantage of this (if it is as it appears) to fit a machined fluted stack device at or in the mounting surface of the breather pipe that will match the throttle body bore and that will cure the negative effect of the 2 things I mention. :nix:
I'd give Jimmy Light a call at HPI and ask him about his fluted throttle bodies and the reason for it and take another look at the "port matching" thread on here again. I took a quick look but couldn't find it. Max will remember cuz he and a few others spent a good bit of time bench testing the port match theory and sharing their info. You may be able to do some trail blazing here. I'd love to hear what you find out if you do check into it.
I got my heavy breather assembled onto the bike and took it out for a ride to see if I could feel any difference on the ole' butt dyno.
I came back from the ride looking like this :teeth:
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a couple more pic's
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Well, what did the seat of your pants say?
Looks good Ray. :up:
thanks Brian :up:
kd...what the seat of the my pants told me was :smilep: this dog will hunt :hyst:
It made a big enough difference that my butt dyno could feel it instantly once I was moving along and the air was being forced into it. With this open ended face of the K&N X-Stream air filter it seems to catch the cooler air hitting it straight in the face along with pulling the air thru the sides of the filter which gives it that straight down the throat ram air affect...which I found out pretty fast that it is a definite improvement over my old round type air filter system.
I was hoping when I started this little project that I would end up with this kind of results...and to my surprise...it actually works.
The only thing I'm not liking so far besides the big ugly air filter hanging out there in space is that the filter vibrates a little on the end of the tubing at idle...but once I'm moving it sits dead still and pulls in the air like it is designed to do...but of course the whole damn engine shakes at idle so why would I even think the filter wouldn't :doh: ...but so far I'm digging the results on the performance end of it.
The plan is to get it out this weekend and let it chew a little :wink:
Let me know how it works out for you. :potstir:
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it is definitely noticeable already. :up:
That looks good Jay!
here is a picture of the face of my filter.
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nice job Ray - 1st class :up: :up:
I'd love to ride that bad bitch :smiled:
lucky man you are :beer: :wink:
:up:
thank you sfmichael !
It's always fun to do little projects like this when you can instantly feel the difference it makes.
I have less than $100.00 invested into this whole air cleaner set up...but it doesn't say Screamin Chicken on it :emsad: :hyst:
My filter does not have a open end on the front, but has a reverse cone molded into the nose to speed up the air flow. I'm still iffy about hanging all that weight out their for the long term. I have had this set up before my last dyno session with Jim. I left it at home thinking that the improvement would only show up in excess of 100mph. :idunno:
I could feel the difference at 10 mph Jay. I was shocked!
The down side of this air filter system is:
I'll probably have to give Jim a re-visit. It made that big a difference I think and could probably use some tuning adjustments.
The throttle response went back to cocked and loaded at every where I tried to roll on it from...which has it set on the fun play mode again for sure.
Sounds good Ray. I still have yet to ride this year. But will be back on the road soon to try mine out just for kicks. I have never used it, just mocked it up.
your tranny still down?
Yep, you must have seen the void in my previous pic. post. I have very few months to ride, now that I go 12hrs. plus in September for work. It's all about money and time in my case.
Oh yes, I agree. That thing looks like it should have added at least 15HP (or subtracted $150 from your wallet).
Either way, as long as you're happy, that's what counts. It does look trick though. Gotta give you that.
Ray I like the look and they work,S&S Did some testing with what I would call the long Horn(Tuned Intake) System.It has that all Business Look,I have the two filter system on one of my scooters too I like it..... :agree:
Dosent look like you would have any leg clearance issues, do you? My problem is with the Mic 48 and filfer setup, my leg hits the filter cover. I think that 90 deg. bend would solve my issue. Nice job Ray, I may have to copy. :wink:
MCE...I don't think it added 15 hp...but my butt can feel a difference on the plus side...or at least it seems to have.
I've always wanted to try a heavy breather...I just couldn't justify spending $300.00 plus dollars on one if it truly didn't work and gain me anything.
With me being able to find the proper size mandrel bent tubing I needed to match up to my 66mm T/Hog's bore...I decided to go ahead and take the plunge and make one. With less than a $100.00 in this whole system bolted up on the bike...I'm happy with the return it's made.
Mike...I couldn't agree with you more on the all business look it gives. I do think my old air cleaner was a lot prettier...but I'll take performance over looks on this. I have done a little more searching and I've found a different filter a little smaller and lighter...but it doesn't breath through the front like this one does. I might buy one and see if the ole' butt dyno can feel a difference in the two.
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Quote from: DEW on May 24, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Dosent look like you would have any leg clearance issues, do you? My problem is with the Mic 48 and filfer setup, my leg hits the filter cover. I think that 90 deg. bend would solve my issue. Nice job Ray, I may have to copy. :wink:
No leg clearance issues at all...actually I have more leg (knee) clearance now than with my old Exotx extended round air cleaner.
with my current K&N air filter on the heavy breather system I've got...it weighs in over a pound less than my old PM Gasser set up.
I can cut another pound off the weight of that if I go with the filter I found this morning.
I know that's not a lot of weight...but I guess every little bit helps.
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At the track, every pound is ET, on my Daughter's Jr dragster 1.5lbs=.01
I had weights in 1/2 lb increments to add or subtract in the ballast to get it to run the same number every pass, we were on a 7.90 index.
Ray, in the Bagger class, which is "No Breakout" you would want to trim as much as possible.
Have you considered ceramic wheel bearings? Gotta cut the rolling resistance as well :potstir:
Quote from: Durwood on May 24, 2014, 12:59:32 PM
At the track, every pound is ET, on my Daughter's Jr dragster 1.5lbs=.01
I had weights in 1/2 lb increments to add or subtract in the ballast to get it to run the same number every pass, we were on a 7.90 index.
Ray, in the Bagger class, which is "No Breakout" you would want to trim as much as possible.
Have you considered ceramic wheel bearings? Gotta cut the rolling resistance as well :potstir:
:embarrassed: I know where to get them.... :hyst:
Yes Daren...I read Brian's post on the ceramic bearings and was amazed at the video that was posted of the front wheel spinning. I bookmarked it and saved the thread.
I will eventually have to have some of them :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on May 24, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Yes Daren...I read Brian's post on the ceramic bearings and was amazed at the video that was posted of the front wheel spinning. I bookmarked it and saved the thread.
I will eventually have to have some of them :wink:
I guess I missed that post, My bad, WFO mentioned them at the expo.
Quote from: Durwood on May 24, 2014, 07:46:11 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 24, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Yes Daren...I read Brian's post on the ceramic bearings and was amazed at the video that was posted of the front wheel spinning. I bookmarked it and saved the thread.
I will eventually have to have some of them :wink:
I guess I missed that post, My bad, WFO mentioned them at the expo.
Daren, bring yer wallet.....
$$$http://www.brocksperformance.com/Ceramic-Bearing-CB9252+I131457+C170.aspx (http://www.brocksperformance.com/Ceramic-Bearing-CB9252+I131457+C170.aspx)
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 24, 2014, 07:51:34 PM
Quote from: Durwood on May 24, 2014, 07:46:11 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 24, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Yes Daren...I read Brian's post on the ceramic bearings and was amazed at the video that was posted of the front wheel spinning. I bookmarked it and saved the thread.
I will eventually have to have some of them :wink:
I guess I missed that post, My bad, WFO mentioned them at the expo.
Daren, bring yer wallet..... $$$
http://www.brocksperformance.com/Ceramic-Bearing-CB9252+I131457+C170.aspx (http://www.brocksperformance.com/Ceramic-Bearing-CB9252+I131457+C170.aspx)
Ray's buying this round. :hyst:
I just got my property tax bill in the mail today :doh:
Those bearings will have to wait for now.
But...if you want to go ahead and buy this round Daren...I'll get the next :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on May 24, 2014, 08:05:03 PM
I just got my property tax bill in the mail today :doh:
Those bearings will have to wait for now.
But...if you want to go ahead and buy this round Daren...I'll get the next :hyst:
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
Quote from: No Cents on May 24, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Yes Daren...I read Brian's post on the ceramic bearings and was amazed at the video that was posted of the front wheel spinning. I bookmarked it and saved the thread.
I will eventually have to have some of them :wink:
Is that value for money Ray?
Isn't your front wheel off the ground most of the time ? :teeth:
:hyst:
I'm trying my best to keep it down on both tires! :banghead:
I do see some of those ceramic bearings in my distant future.
I think they are amazing at the difference they made...according to the video I seen. :wink:
Less rolling resistance can only be a good thing.
A $3.00 can of nitro airplane fuel in the tank really cuts down the the rolling resistance also. :hyst:
Not all ceramic bearings are created equal. Many race teams run Micro Blue ceramic bearings throughout their bikes, not just in the wheels. Mike Roberts was known to run ceramic bearings from Micro Blue, even had them do the gears, shafts and chains and he dominated in the AHDRA 124 class.
http://www.microblueracing.com/microblue-ceramic-ball-bearings.html (http://www.microblueracing.com/microblue-ceramic-ball-bearings.html)
:up:
thanks Ed.
I think it was Jay (jam65) that had a thread about his tranny and asked if anyone had used Micro Blue before.
I checked their web site out and watched a video of the guy using Micro Blue on his drag bike. His drag engine lasted the whole season.
Very impressive!
Really neat Ray thanks for sharing.My super d air filter is always in the way.
John
Quote from: No Cents on May 25, 2014, 02:54:01 PM
:up:
thanks Ed.
I think it was Jay (jam65) that had a thread about his tranny and asked if anyone had used Micro Blue before.
I checked their web site out and watched a video of the guy using Micro Blue on his drag bike. His drag engine lasted the whole season.
Very impressive!
I posted here about Micro Blue a few years ago. The old guard on this forum responded as if I were an idiot. Funny how things change. Embrace new technology. Its the only way to move forward.
Like I said in my other thread about Micro Blue. They must be doing something right to still be doing business. Not too many people here to use their product for the n'th degree in performance, but it's out there if you feel that you need or want it.
another one
http://www.worldwidebearings.com/motorcycle.htm (http://www.worldwidebearings.com/motorcycle.htm)
A buddy of mine has carbon fiber wheels with the world wide ceramic bearings in them. they were not cheap at all.
I went on a little 211 mile cancer charity ride today with a half dozen of my riding pals. I'm guessing 150 bikes in the pack. I'm not much for riding in packs like that...but it was for a good cause.
The ole 124"er didn't miss a beat all day long. It ran excellent.
When we got to the end of the ride there was a band playing and low and behold...a Dyno Jet on a trailer.
The guy was charging $40.00 to do three pulls on your bike and donating $5.00 back from each bike to the cancer charity.
I watched two V-Rods make 104 hp and four or five Street Glides make between 66hp to 95hp.
I was being teased by the guys I rode with to throw mine up there...I just laughed :hyst: and told them it wasn't a dyno queen.
It sure got the guys running the dyno's attention pretty quick when I rode it in.
We talked for a little while and I ended up showing him my dyno sheet on the forum here.
He said I don't know who tuned your bike...but that guy can tune 'em up...for sure!
I told him my tuners name was Jim Kennedy from Mattoon, Il...and he said...I've heard of that cat before.
Jim...your a legend among tuners you don't even know!
I wish jim was down here in florida
hell Kirby...bring it up to him when you get it done.
the snow is gone...it's safe now :hyst:
you sure? just had a buddy down from northern ill. last week,he said they had flurries the week before.ill wait till mid july just to be on the safe side :soda:
88* today in sw Ohio.
the weather has been beautiful around here finally.
:up: nice video's you posted at the track.
did that p/rod hit you when it came flying out in the last one...it looked scary?
Some of those trailer gypsies have no merit. It's like going to the State Fair to see if you can ring the bell.
:agree:
with you Jay.
This guy has a custom cycle shop somewhere near Carrollton, Ky. I listened to him sell his spiel to the crowd that gathered around his trailer.
The first bike he spun on the drum was a 14 CVO 110 bagger that he just got done tuning at his shop. He brought it along to get the show started...I guess. He had the initial pull graph before tuning it and the final tune graph on a big flat screen TV that he had hooked up to the computer on the dyno. He did get about 10/10 more out of the bike...but I wasn't impressed with the wavy lines his final graph had on it. :nix: After he made a few more pulls on it there...the crowd quickly gathered.
The guy looked pretty young and he has definitely spent a lot of money in his trailer and dyno set up...everything looked brand new.
I set back and watched all this going on. By the time I walked away the guy did get about a dozen appointments made from guys and gals to get their bikes tuned by him. I heard him tell them he charged $250.00 for a complete tune and he would need their bike for a couple of days.
Ray, you should have put it up on the dyno to show some real numbers!!! :nix:
I had a few guys trying to coax me to put it up there...they even offered to pay...but I stood my ground and said no. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2014, 10:34:59 AM
I had a few guys trying to coax me to put it up there...they even offered to pay...but I stood my ground and said no. :wink:
If i'd been there :potstir:
Quote from: Durwood on June 01, 2014, 11:09:30 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2014, 10:34:59 AM
I had a few guys trying to coax me to put it up there...they even offered to pay...but I stood my ground and said no. :wink:
If i'd been there :potstir:
:teeth:
Quote from: Durwood on June 01, 2014, 11:09:30 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2014, 10:34:59 AM
I had a few guys trying to coax me to put it up there...they even offered to pay...but I stood my ground and said no. :wink:
If i'd been there :potstir:
and Daren...you would of been proud of me and happy to know...the front tire stayed on the ground all day :bike:
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 01, 2014, 11:09:30 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2014, 10:34:59 AM
I had a few guys trying to coax me to put it up there...they even offered to pay...but I stood my ground and said no. :wink:
If i'd been there :potstir:
and Daren...you would of been proud of me and happy to know...the front tire stayed on the ground all day :bike:
You were behavin, packing the Mrs were ya?
nope no ole' lady on the back...just me behaving myself :embarrassed:
WTH, all that money and time invested and you didn't even try to break it? :wink:
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on June 02, 2014, 03:48:56 AM
WTH, all that money and time invested and you didn't even try to break it? :wink:
No I'm trying to put 10k on it this summer without having to ask Durwood for my tool box keys. :hyst:
damn Durwood...those keys keep shining into my eyes every time I walk into the barn. :hyst:
I never did get the end cap machined by my buddy for my pipe...he has been too busy to do my little side project so far. He has had it for six months now and I'm about to give up on him and take it to another machine shop. :doh:
I know it's riding season...but I might put the old Duracell up on the operating table and make a few changes to it. And no...I'm not doing the .010 over domed pistons just yet...but I've been debating very hard on this idea I've got in mind. It just might end up de-tuning it a little...or maybe possibly going the other way and making more power. :nix: Only time will tell what the results will be.
I would have to pick up a new set of head gaskets and rocker box gaskets to do what I'm thinking of.
I will be treading new waters with this if I do what I've got in mind. I haven't seen anybody out there with this combo I'm debating on doing. I even tried google searching specifically what I'm thinking of doing...and it came back with no results from any where...on any forum.
If I do get 8-up enough to do this :kick: ...it will definitely have to go back to Jim's for another spin on his drum.
Frequent flyer miles apply :hyst:
I knew you was up to no good,Always Tinkering,Maybe run the year out Than go ahead with plan 13 ...... :hyst:
PS send that end cap up here Ray i'll have somebody take care of that piece for you.... :potstir:
plan 13 Mike...more like plan 99 :hyst:
my buddy is a hell of a machinist...it's just that he has been flooded with work at his shop.
He would have machined it for me for cold beers as a payment. I like that payment plan...as I can help reduce the inventory with him :smilep:
I guess if I want to try it on my pipe...I might have to take it to someone else because I don't see him having any free time to machine it anytime soon. He has been working 16 plus hour days...6-7 days a week. He has been turning down work because he doesn't have enough hours in the day to get it all done.
Good for him...bad for me :hyst:
added later:
I might just have to take you up on that offer Mike if you know some one up there that can get it done in a timely manner.
Just let me know, with all the dimensions,if you decide,we went for a ride today,Only 150 miles but riding the Drag Bagger that's enough,but man just twist on it your gone,didn't get to do it too much Mama jacked on me ,she had her street Glide and a few friends she instructed me that we where to ride together....... :kick:
Cat is out of the bag. Now you want to have more lead ins? Come on. What are you going to do that never has been done? I am all ears....... Is this completely you as an independent, or you after you have talk to most in this industry?
That cat doesn't know what a bag is!!! Go for it Ray.
Yeah i asked if you put that bike on the dyno that day!!!!! They told me you tucked it and wouldn't go up :dgust: Got the bike to JYC Thursday getting neck cut! Kinda scary seeing a brand new bike down to a frame and motor
Come on Ray, you lifted your tool box keys from me, Time to Get Busy :potstir:
Quote from: Durwood on June 09, 2014, 10:52:52 AM
Come on Ray, you lifted your tool box keys from me, Time to Get Busy :potstir:
Oh,oh, Ray has the keys for his toolbox?
That should be good for another 30 pages on this thread. :bike:
Nope...no more pages on my behalf...the rest of my ventures will be between me and my tuner and not posted on any forum.
As far as I'm concerned...this thread can be moved to the shed.
Sounds like Ray's goin racing. :up: Time to start keepin secrets. :smiled: :potstir:
Does that mean no more motor porn? :emsad:
:emsad:
Quote from: No Cents on June 09, 2014, 12:20:05 PM
Nope...no more pages on my behalf...the rest of my ventures will be between me and my tuner and not posted on any forum.
As far as I'm concerned...this thread can be moved to the shed.
just consider the source Ray. :sick:
Quote from: No Cents on June 09, 2014, 12:20:05 PM
Nope...no more pages on my behalf...the rest of my ventures will be between me and my tuner and not posted on any forum.
As far as I'm concerned...this thread can be moved to the shed.
Really you can't do that to us. As far as im concerened this thread is second only to the Ta-Ta's one over on hdforums
:agree: this is one of the best threads anywhere. Always look forward to catching up and have learned a lot by following a long. Dunno the back story but this will be missed.
Ray ain't going nowhere, he's not going to let one wet blanket spoil the camping trip.
I enjoy the fact that Ray shares his R&D, good or bad.. I also can tell for sure there is a couple of killer 124" recipes right here in these pages IMO. AND more to come as I know there are some un-tried parts on the shelves of the barn :wink:
I can be having a bad day, then you come up with some cool new Redneck tool, and all I can do is smile :teeth:
Keep up the good work buddy, and remember not everyone is happy for you, some guys are just jealous, but most of us are very interested in "the rest of the story".. Paul Harvey, Good Day :teeth:
:up: one of my favorite threads ray.
there is no secret stories to tell.
I have been willing to share everything I've done with this 124 project, and also my old 117 build for all to see.
There were a lot of things I did that were trial and error for me along the way...and I posted it all for everyone to see up front so it could possibly save someone the same headaches I had. Most everyone always showed me great support and offered me some great suggestions along the way...and I truly appreciate. :hug:
Now with over 80,000 views to this thread...it's got so big that it's hard to grasp all that has happened along the way. I sat down over last week end and started with my 1st post, and I re-read the whole thread. It is very long and is very time consuming to read it all. I feel a lot of good info becomes lost along the way.
I'm not mad at anyone...I just feel that if I ever do decide to make any changes to my bike...I should make the changes I'm wanting to do and see if it does make a difference before stating my intentions up front. In the past I would have no secrets and I would tell everyone what I was going to be attempting before actually doing it.
If I do something that does make a difference to my bike that I feel would be worth sharing...I will post it for all to see.
I'm not the type of guy that would keep it to myself if it may help someone else too.
I just think it would be best to start a new thread stating the results instead of making this one larger.
Keep it here, at least till you build a 145"er :potstir:
:potstir:
WHAT WOULD THIS FORUM BECOME?
No more No Cents Modification Things being done... I ONLY read about most and freeley Learn Both Sides of the changes made...
Coyote won't let this thread go to the shed... Too much more to be done here. :sheep:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on June 10, 2014, 06:04:45 AM
Too much more to be done here. :sheep:
signed....BUBBIE
Amen Bubby :sheep:
That's it....
I've been trolling in and outta here from time to time to see WTF the conversations are about.
I've come to the conclusion that you guys are really just a bunch of old Jewish women at a sewing circle. :hyst:
From this day on, I will never look upon this thread again as the cerebral gain in any type of wisdom has long past.
When the quilt is finished, you will all look at each other and be saddened by the fact that you got a lot older and still do not understand the real meaning of sumping and it's effects on the national budget... :wtf:
OK, that was just a bunch of fragmented thoughts; what were we talking about..... :oops:
Come on ray do tell :pop:
Ray I appreciate all the info you have readily given up.It has taken a lot of your time and energy to write this thread.Hope you continue it has been my entertainment since the beginning.Thanks.Fred
Quote from: Nowhereman on June 10, 2014, 06:17:24 AM
That's it....
I've been trolling in and outta here from time to time to see WTF the conversations are about.
I've come to the conclusion that you guys are really just a bunch of old Jewish women at a sewing circle. :hyst:
From this day on, I will never look upon this thread again as the cerebral gain in any type of wisdom has long past.
When the quilt is finished, you will all look at each other and be saddened by the fact that you got a lot older and still do not understand the real meaning of sumping and it's effects on the national budget... :wtf:
OK, that was just a bunch of fragmented thoughts; what were we talking about..... :oops:
We were not talking to you. It was just the cerebral battle in your head that consumes you. Too damn head strong for this crowd and probably some other groups that you may encounter in your travels. Are you Ackmed under a new name? Sure seems like the last one that went out the same way.
I love that you post you ideas and plans up front and let us ride along with you. For me, it's a great learning experience and I get a lot out of it.
Quote from: Durwood on June 10, 2014, 06:03:50 AM
Keep it here, at least till you build a 145"er :potstir:
Lol... :smilep:
I try to keep up on this thread. I figure anything that holds up in and behind Ray's 8up 124 oughta fare well in my puny 103.
This has been a great thread so far with all the R&D. Way more time, energy and cash than I am willing to put forth. It is impressive to me what the potential of the 124" has. I have a mild low compression 124" being built in Florida right now. While id love to have the fire breathing power of a max potential 124" with 130k on my bike right now I am going for longevity. Id love to get 100k out of my build. Great thread and thanks to all that have contributed. It was a long read.
I know off topic but i have a rake kit from Misfit Industries brand new in the box for sale. It is to put a 26 on the front and 1500 takes it. The kit is over 1700 on their site. :bike:513-505-3259
Holy hanna, what a thread. It's taken me a couple days to read through all 73 pages but man what a read. Great job Ray! I forgot about HTT but then I saw another post somewhere and figured hey more material to look at. Been researching building my own 124" and typed that in the search bar and phooof here's your thread. Enjoyed all the R&D articles and tips, bummed when your wife was ill and also when the lineman lost his life. Overall, one of the best things to read in a very long time. All I can do is read and collect info since I decided to come back over to Afghanistan to work again but part of the prize for doing this is to beef up my 2011 CVO Ultra (can't forget the FXSTC as well). Gonna make them girls get up and boogie but maybe I'll tone it down a bit...or not. Anyway, awesome read and thank you and all of those who participated in the novel.
:up: :up: :up: :up:
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
And there you have it Ray. One positive post = many negative posts. Some of the best parts of this thread show that most of us don't know it all and can learn by sharing some trial and error information that benefits others in their quest for a better performing HD.
Big following for Grumpy's pics every week and this one is even better for the petrol heads.
You can almost smell the gas and the rubber in some of Ray's posts. :teeth:
:up:
Quote from: jam65 on June 18, 2014, 07:41:09 PM
And there you have it Ray. One positive post = many negative posts. Some of the best parts of this thread show that most of us don't know it all and can learn by sharing some trial and error information that benefits others in their quest for a better performing HD.
Quote from: CVOThunder on June 18, 2014, 06:15:28 PM
Holy hanna, what a thread. It's taken me a couple days to read through all 73 pages but man what a read. Great job Ray! I forgot about HTT but then I saw another post somewhere and figured hey more material to look at. Been researching building my own 124" and typed that in the search bar and phooof here's your thread. Enjoyed all the R&D articles and tips, bummed when your wife was ill and also when the lineman lost his life. Overall, one of the best things to read in a very long time. All I can do is read and collect info since I decided to come back over to Afghanistan to work again but part of the prize for doing this is to beef up my 2011 CVO Ultra (can't forget the FXSTC as well). Gonna make them girls get up and boogie but maybe I'll tone it down a bit...or not. Anyway, awesome read and thank you and all of those who participated in the novel.
:up: :up: :up: :up:
:agree: these two sum it up :up:
Quote from: 98fxstc on June 18, 2014, 08:13:33 PM
...You can almost smell the gas and the rubber in some of Ray's posts. :teeth:
:up:
Yep, and feel the excitement too!
come on ray you have been to quite.. :pop:
With my big blabber mouth...who you kidding :hyst:
I'm just getting all my ducks in a row right now.
I've learned a lot over just this past week with all the smart people I've talked to...which will go un-named.
I need to go back to work next week...this being on vacation all week has had me looking at that tool box a lot harder than I should have been. :kick:
I avoided temptation though...and I'm glad I did. I'm no where near ready to open the bike back up.
I keep telling myself to wait until fall before putting the bike up on the lift. This is riding season and it will be gone before I know it.
My heads will be going back to wfolarry for him to install a set of PAC Racing .750" lift RPM Series dual springs to handle the lift.
I talked to Bill's daughter on the phone today @ Bore Tech for fitting the pistons to my cylinders for me. She said anytime after Bill (the owner) gets back from Bonneville he can knock them out for me in probably a weeks time. I liked hearing that.
So sometime this fall...if all the planets line up correctly and I have all my needed parts...it's going to be operation Duracell II coming for our viewing pleasure. :hyst:
In other words...I'm still the 8-up guy you's know...it's just that I'm in a learning mode right now and I haven't had much of anything new to say about the ole 124"er :wink:
I will say this about it...the damn thing still runs like a scalded dog.
Ray
added later:
see you got my big mouth a goin :doh:
Ray, Bill and I were in Wilmington early in the day, passing safety and all. The pre Bonneville runs start tomorrow.
are you going with him to Bonneville?
I'm just getting all my ducks in a row right now.
Ray
I learned a while back to just shoot the ducks. They are easier to line up then.
Still in the air, not sure if I can get away. Kelli, his daughter, and several others are going. I'll know in a few weeks if I can get away.
I hope you are able to get away and go.
I've always wanted to go to the salt flats every since I was a kid and saw pictures of the bikes flying down the course.
I've been talking to Ed (turboprop) ...he's going.
Tell Bill "good luck" for me...and I wish him well.
Ray
now Bob...about them ducks
The game wardon would have me in cuff's with all the ducks I've shot this week :hyst:
Bonneville is a magical place. Sort of the Mecca for gearheads with a pilgrimage every August. Bring money.
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/XU7Q9044_zps0145218b.jpg)
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/_U7Q8224-2.jpg)
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/_U7Q8239-2.jpg)
Quote from: turboprop on July 11, 2014, 07:42:34 PM
Bonneville is a magical place. Sort of the Mecca for gearheads with a pilgrimage every August. Bring money.
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/XU7Q9044_zps0145218b.jpg)
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/_U7Q8224-2.jpg)
(http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h392/econnor2/Bonneville%202011/_U7Q8239-2.jpg)
Right on! Isn't Ron using the green TTS. I understand there isn't a lot of hoopla about, but it is nice to know people doing things like this are using it. :unsure:
:up:
very nice pictures Ed!
thanks for sharing with us.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 11, 2014, 10:15:04 PM
Right on! Isn't Ron using the green TTS. I understand there isn't a lot of hoopla about, but it is nice to know people doing things like this are using it. :unsure:
I'll bite, What is the green TTS?
:nix:
one used by space aliens...I presume :scratch:
it must be a top secret box...I've never heard of it either.
Ray
Might be the one with the 4 analog outputs, I did not know they were green or even available to the public.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/12/usyqenab.jpg)
I think they became available beginning of this month but I'm not sure.
what changes does this new green TTS box offer over the older black box?
The 4 channel analog inputs on the side of the box is what makes it different from the HD06 (blue)
I'm no tuner Jason...so what you said just went straight over my head. 4 channel analog inputs and blue HD06 isn't telling me anything.
I'm sure it is something certain people can understand and relate to...but I don't have a clue what all that means. :nix:
Ray
in short it most likely for data logging for avg person i would assume it isnt worth it, but for few its like walking on water till something elese come around might help dyno opratior give better tune if he/she understand and has extra equipment also might be able add wide band and have auto tune feature
http://www.hdforums.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=71&view=topic&postid=580111&forumid=27 (http://www.hdforums.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=71&view=topic&postid=580111&forumid=27) here Steve Cole words
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,70365.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,70365.0.html)
:up:
thanks Glide...that helps me understand a little more about the green TTS box now.
Ray
Here's a news flash that I thought a few of you's might be interested in.
The old Duracell is making it's maiden voyage down the drag strip here in a few weeks at Xenia Raceway.
Strokerjlk is going to pilot it and run it thru it's paces.
I just hope he is not going to be too disappointed in it.
So...everybody come out and help me cheer Jim on!
Ray
Is he gonna get to practice his hole shots first? :potstir:
Just curious. Rules let one rider pilot two or more bikes in the same class? Maybe Jims and Rays bikes are in different classes.
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2014, 04:46:49 PM
Is he gonna get to practice his hole shots first? :potstir:
kd...I warned him :wink:
Jay...I will let Jim tell you his plans and the classes he will be entering
Ray
Dam it ray I want some pic's, I wish I could be there good luck, I need Strokerjlk to come up here and run my 131 at the kaukana race track...... :potstir:
I'll get some.
I might even have to get the wifeepooh to show me how to work her camcorder and get some good video shots too.
Ray
No disrespect Ray but what a bike runs and what a bikes owner runs on his bike are two different things to be proud of. Get out there with your girl and do the dance.
None taken Jay. I thought that would bring up a few questions about me not running it.
I was told Jim needed a bike to run at Xenia. I gladly offered mine to him if he wanted to use it...Jim said hell yes.
I plan on doing the dance soon enough myself. I still need to get myself a full face helmet and some leathers.
I don't have either.
Ray
Awsome news on Jim running your bike. Can't wait to hear how it does. Also don't know if your on facebook but looks like fuel moto/ Gary Williams are ripping off your intake.
Fuel Moto/Williams prototype torque tube
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
I'm not...but my son is on Facebook.
hummm :scratch:
yes...that does look awfully familiar :doh:
Good for them...I think Jamie will be surprised at how well it works.
Maybe Jamie will give me a percentage of the profits :hyst:
[attach=0]
Ray
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
:chop: Ray we will only accept this if you make few pass yourself, let stroker video and bring extra pair of underwear, try get video and good luck to Duracell and stroker
:pop:
Ray, is that a pic of your engine?
yes
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2014, 04:32:20 PM
Here's a news flash that I thought a few of you's might be interested in.
The old Duracell is making it's maiden voyage down the drag strip here in a few weeks at Xenia Raceway.
Strokerjlk is going to pilot it and run it thru it's paces.
I just hope he is not going to be too disappointed in it.
So...everybody come out and help me cheer Jim on!
Ray
:up: :up:
Where is Xenia Raceway?
Is it 1/8 or 1/4 mile?
Eric...Kil-Kare speedway is located in Xenia, Ohio.
here is the flyer for the weekend
[attach=0]
Ray
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: jam65 on July 13, 2014, 05:22:33 PM
No disrespect Ray but what a bike runs and what a bikes owner runs on his bike are two different things to be proud of. Get out there with your girl and do the dance.
:agree:, Nothing wrong with letting Jim ride it, but I believe you can do it as well.
Jim has my practice tree, use it to get the feel for the tree and as Jay said, "Do the dance" at least make a shot or two in test and tune.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 14, 2014, 03:51:14 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2014, 04:32:20 PM
Here's a news flash that I thought a few of you's might be interested in.
The old Duracell is making it's maiden voyage down the drag strip here in a few weeks at Xenia Raceway.
Strokerjlk is going to pilot it and run it thru it's paces.
I just hope he is not going to be too disappointed in it.
So...everybody come out and help me cheer Jim on!
Ray
:up: :up:
Where is Xenia Raceway?
Is it 1/8 or 1/4 mile?
Thanks Ray . That takes the pressure off getting this 88 er back up .
Not being able to make the race this past weekend, was killing me .
We will see where she's at and go from there as to what class/classes to run .
Eric it's a 1/4 mile track , with a lazer milled concrete surface . It's a fast track .
Durwood...you coming to help cheer Jim on?
I'd love for a bunch of you guys to try to make it...the more the merrier!
Ray
oh...I'm practicing still...don't you ever think I'm not. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on July 14, 2014, 02:49:36 PM
Durwood...you coming to help cheer Jim on?
I'd love for a bunch of you guys to try to make it...the more the merrier!
Ray
oh...I'm practicing still...don't you ever think I'm not. :hyst:
I will probably be working on my new shop, I am getting the keys this weekend and it needs painting, ect before I will move my equipment in.
Come on down, I got a paint roller with your name on it. :hyst:
Good luck to you guys, Jim is more than capable :up:
you got a paint roller that says.... 8-up on it? :hyst:
That's the 1st I heard of a new shop for you...congrats! :up:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 14, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
you got a paint roller that says.... 8-up on it? :hyst:
That's the 1st I heard of a new shop for you...congrats! :up:
Ray
Thanks, I will have one custom embroidered just for you :teeth:
Ray, on that Xenia thing. You and Jim are about the same aren't you? Jim as you know will get the full potential out of your bike. Your gonna be 8up to match his effort and I can't wait to see the motivation you will have after this race weekend. Pulling for the both of you.
Great thread. I missed the meaning behind the "8 up" though
Jim and Ray, count me in! I'll be there to see this also.
I'm about as motivated as I'll get Jay. I've just been too busy working a bunch all year trying to build my pension #'s up before I retire and it hasn't left me too much play time this year. They told us this morning at work that we are going to mandatory 5- 10 hour days starting next week...until further notice. They told us to expect it to run this way until at least fall time.
To tell you the truth...I will be happy just to watch the bike go down the strip for the first time...even with Jim at the helm.
I don't have a clue as to what to expect for what kind of times Jim will get out of it...but I'm sure he will push it to it's limits. I'm sure he will find the next weakest link on it. My guess is it's going to be the stock tranny next. I just hope it stays together for him and he has fun on it.
If Jim can keep the front tire from going straight up and down when he launches it off the line...he just might surprise us with a half way respectable time out of the old Duracell. We'll just have to wait and see how he feels about it.
It's not the same bike he last rode when he tuned it. It's had the chain conversion done with the gearing change and the heavy breather added to it I made since he last saw it.
I waiting to see the expression on his face when he gets on it and twists the wick for the 1st time with these changes I've made to it.
I think he will like them.
Ray
Merc1100sc...I'll let one of these guys explain to you about the meaning "8-up" :wink:
added later:
and don't believe a word of what they say :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on July 14, 2014, 07:59:31 PM
I'm about as motivated as I'll get Jay. I've just been too busy working a bunch all year trying to build my pension #'s up before I retire and it hasn't left me too much play time this year. They told us this morning at work that we are going to mandatory 5- 10 hour days starting next week...until further notice. They told us to expect it to run this way until at least fall time.
To tell you the truth...I will be happy just to watch the bike go down the strip for the first time...even with Jim at the helm.
I don't have a clue as to what to expect for what kind of times Jim will get out of it...but I'm sure he will push it to it's limits. I'm sure he will find the next weakest link on it. My guess is it's going to be the stock tranny next. I just hope it stays together for him and he has fun on it.
If Jim can keep the front tire from going straight up and down when he launches it off the line...he just might surprise us with a half way respectable time out of the old Duracell. We'll just have to wait and see how he feels about it.
It's not the same bike he last rode when he tuned it. It's had the chain conversion done with the gearing change and the heavy breather added to it I made since he last saw it.
I waiting to see the expression on his face when he gets on it and twists the wick for the 1st time with these changes I've made to it.
I think he will like them.
Ray
my bike runs a 11.6. it has more weight 8-9 less hp bad gearing for a good 5 th gear charge.
I am hoping yours hits 5th gear hard .honestly if I didn't think it was faster than my bike :up: ,I would ride mine .
my 6 sp has a bunch of passes on it .(knock wood) I will be gentle ...promise.
I will bring a extra clutch spring just in case we need it for 3 rd and 4 th gear
take the 25th off too. bring the toy hauler . with any luck we will be one of the last to leave sun. if not it will still be a blast .
I am counting on it not being the same bike I rode last.
if I can stay in the seat ..it aught to do good.....might have another seat lined up
Im betting 11.4- maybe 11.3. We have some similar power baggers here at the shop pulling down those numbers.
marty...11.4 would impress the hell out of me. Even with Jim piloting the ole Duracell I don't think 11.4 is happening. Remember...this will be it's first time on the strip. I'm sure it will be a good starting point that will show me what's needed for making more improvements to it.
Jim...the toy hauler isn't an option. I haven't even de-winterized it this year. I noticed that this past winter had taken it's toll pretty hard on the tires. All six tires have some serious dry rot cracks in them around the rims.
Before moving that rig...I'd have to spend a wad of cash on tires to be able to roll it down the road...sorry.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 15, 2014, 03:45:43 AM
marty...11.4 would impress the hell out of me. Even with Jim piloting the ole Duracell I don't think 11.4 is happening. Remember...this will be it's first time on the strip. I'm sure it will be a good starting point that will show me what's needed for making more improvements to it.
Jim...the toy hauler isn't an option. I haven't even de-winterized it this year. I noticed that this past winter had taken it's toll pretty hard on the tires. All six tires have some serious dry rot cracks in them around the rims.
Before moving that rig...I'd have to spend a wad of cash on tires to be able to roll it down the road...sorry.
Ray
Maybe richie rich will buy a block of rooms in town .... :hyst:
Sorry Randy ... Couldn't help myself :embarrassed:
Quote
Posted by: 06roadglide
« on: Yesterday at 07:55:00 PM » Insert Quote
Jim and Ray, count me in! I'll be there to see this also.
And make some passes ?
Quote
Posted by: 06roadglide
« on: Yesterday at 07:55:00 PM » Insert Quote
Jim and Ray, count me in! I'll be there to see this also.
And make some passes ?
[/quote]
I'd sure like to but I think I'd like my first time on a sticky launching track to be on a closer to stock motorcycle. I've launched mine many of times on the street but I know the tire is the weak link and I don't fear anything unexpected will happen. I've never had to manage clutch control/friction/hook up.
Although I suppose I don't have to just go full tilt on my first attempt on a track.
Quote from: 06roadglide on July 15, 2014, 10:42:48 AM
Quote
Posted by: 06roadglide
« on: Yesterday at 07:55:00 PM » Insert Quote
Jim and Ray, count me in! I'll be there to see this also.
And make some passes ?
I'd sure like to but I think I'd like my first time on a sticky launching track to be on a closer to stock motorcycle. I've launched mine many of times on the street but I know the tire is the weak link and I don't fear anything unexpected will happen. I've never had to manage clutch control/friction/hook up.
Although I suppose I don't have to just go full tilt on my first attempt on a track.
[/quote]
You just go as far as you feel comfortable with .
Just keep nudging it a little more each pass
No worries jim,thank god ray was able to drive us home last year :beer: :beer: :beer:
Quote from: groundhog135 on July 15, 2014, 05:35:23 PM
No worries jim,thank god ray was able to drive us home last year :beer: :beer: :beer:
and I'll probably have to drive you guys home again this year :hyst: :beer: :beer: :beer:
Given Jim's input re less weight and a good, sticky track - you just might see that 11.3 or 4. Jim knows how to launch and get the most from it. A good 60, a nice straight run hitting the gears right -- very do-able. Can you say "Copper-top Freight Train?"
I put the bike up on the lift when I got home again today to install an extra small disc spring into the spring pack of my SE comp.
I was so excited with what I seen on the inside of my comp...that I had to tell you gent's.
I've been running the "CompensaVer" for just over two seasons now with over 10,000 miles on it...and I've been running ATF in it since day one. Now most of these miles were with some fairly hard abuse placed on the comp with the horsepower I push at it.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it tonight. It looked almost as good as new. No scoring or rusty looking marks inside the sprocket with very faint wear marks on the sliding cam. The oil is apparently getting to everything properly just as it was designed to.
I just want to give a big shout out and a big thanks to Ron and Richard for the hard work, and time, and money invested into their product!
Ray
Good news Ray. Im planning on doing those mods to my primary down the road. First I need to get my motor from Kirby.
I should of took pictures of it...but I didn't think about it. :doh:
Ray
Thats OK- you'll have it pulled apart soon enough :potstir: cough 145" cough
no plans for a 145"er in the near future Robin.
I do have a little something up my sleeve to keep me busy when this riding season is up :wink:
Ray
I put my bike up on the lift the other day and changed my oil out to this 10W60 Liqui Moly synthetic I've been wanting to try for sometime. In the summer months I had been running 60wt Amsoil synthetic in the past with excellent results. I always had to order the Amsoil because it was never sitting on the shelf anywhere. I found out thru a thread on here that the 10W60 Liqui Moly could now be purchased at Napa. Sure enough they had some 5 liter jugs in their warehouse. They had it for me the next morning. I let the bike drain over night and I put the 10W60 in. I've been checking my oil temp's closely to see if I notice any difference. Surprisingly I have seen my normal oil temp's a touch lower. It has been cooler than normal around here but my oil temp's are a little lower than I usually see. I will record what I find when the temp's get back up into the 90's again...but so far I like what I'm seeing with this oil.
Yesterday I put the bike back up on the lift and I added an extra small spring disc to my SE comp stack. I rode the bike this morning for about 75 miles and it did seem to make my comp a little quieter than it was before. In the past I have always used Amsoil Super Shift ATF in my primary and I've also been running the CompensaVer that I put in a few years ago. This time I'm going to be trying the B&M Trick Shift ATF because I found it locally on the shelf at an auto parts store and some guys running it have stated they have had good results with it.
My comp parts looked absolutely amazing with the oil being able to get into the internals of it with the use of the CompensaVer. This comp has over 10,000 miles on it to date and is still going strong with very little wear marks on the sliding cam and the inside of the sprocket looked like the day I put it in. This was great to see...especially with the added abuse it has to take with my little above stock horsepower 124" engine.
I couldn't be happier with what I seen while I was in my primary.
Ray
Ray: How much cleanup needed in the centrifugal debri collection area in the retainer that otherwise would have gone through the comp? Not that it matters any more due to this design being obsolete now but just curious how long it would take before the risk of choking the oil holes came into play. Something, by the way was not even considered on the 2014 MoCo version.
Ron
Where did you get the extra spring?
Ron...everything was very clean when I pulled it apart and inspected each part. The centrifugal oiler holes were all clear of debri and the only thing I did was hit all the parts with some brake cleaner, blew some air thru everything, and re-install it.
I wished I would have taken some pictures of everything while I had it apart. :doh: I was just so pleased with what I seen...I just bolted everything back together after I cleaned the Loctite out of the crank bolt hole.
HighLiner...I got it from Jim (TweekmyTwin). He said he has had very good results with running the added small spring to the spring stack of the older SE comp version like I'm running still.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2014, 10:50:51 AM
Ron...everything was very clean when I pulled it apart and inspected each part. The centrifugal oiler holes were all clear of debri and the only thing I did was hit all the parts with some brake cleaner, blew some air thru everything, and re-install it.
I wished I would have taken some pictures of everything while I had it apart. :doh: I was just so pleased with what I seen...I just bolted everything back together after I cleaned the Loctite out of the crank bolt hole.
HighLiner...I got it from Jim (TweekmyTwin). He said he has had very good results with running the added small spring to the spring stack of the older SE comp version like I'm running still.
Ray
Interesting. Maybe the ATF ain't so bad after all, as long as it gets into the parts :wink:.
Ron
I'm sure this is a fairly common problem on these bagger.
I've noticed recently a lot of vibration in my fairing...especially when it's sitting at an idle.
So today I pulled the fairing off to take a peek see and low and behold it had both of the upper inner fairing brackets broke where they make their 90* bend. What a cheap thin bracket. One piss poor design.
So I took a good hard look at it and decided to beef the thing up. I took two pieces of some thicker steel and bent them into a 90*. I drilled two 1/4" holes in each on of them and then drilled a hole thru the old bracket...and bolted everything together. It seems to have done the job.
No more vibrating fairing.
Ray
:up:
Too many wheelies
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 20, 2014, 05:32:51 PM
:up:
Too many wheelies
Setting it down too hard. Keep that front wheel pointed skyward. :teeth:
Quote from: wfolarry on July 20, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 20, 2014, 05:32:51 PM
:up:
Too many wheelies
Setting it down too hard. Keep that front wheel pointed skyward. :teeth:
I'm getting a lot better at sitting it down easier under load and not slamming it down anymore.
It just took me awhile to figure out I couldn't do 4K launches from a dead stop without it damn near going straight up and down.
I slammed 'er down pretty hard a few times when I thought I was going to flip it over backwards...then I had to change my underwear :hyst:
I just keep on practicing when I get the chance.
Ray
So on my lil' 103" fatazzed UC there isn't likely to be a fairing bracket issue? :teeth:
Mark, they break every now and then. These are decent replacements, lighter and stronger than OEM.
http://www.easternperformance.com/alloy-art-strong-arm-fairing-brackets-for-harley-davidson-batwing-electra-glide-flhtc.html (http://www.easternperformance.com/alloy-art-strong-arm-fairing-brackets-for-harley-davidson-batwing-electra-glide-flhtc.html)
There use to be a guy here on HTT that made some stronger stainless steel brackets on here few years back. :up:
The countdown is on to Xenia😎
Quote from: No Cents on July 20, 2014, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: wfolarry on July 20, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 20, 2014, 05:32:51 PM
:up:
Too many wheelies
Setting it down too hard. Keep that front wheel pointed skyward. :teeth:
I'm getting a lot better at sitting it down easier under load and not slamming it down anymore.
It just took me awhile to figure out I couldn't do 4K launches from a dead stop without it damn near going straight up and down.
I slammed 'er down pretty hard a few times when I thought I was going to flip it over backwards...then I had to change my underwear :hyst:
I just keep on practicing when I get the chance.
Ray
Ray when you get it down path sent me a video,I myself hook my right foot under the rear brake pedal so I don't come off,but your Instinct is to ethier pull your feet to the side(thinking you will end up on your feet) or slamming it down when it goes up,But these things start to go side ways
And when your slipping in 3 gear,That's when I say ok this thing could go bad real Fast because I'll pull mine to 6000 + in the second Thur fourth gears but after that,My Gonads are back of me,and your running a diff. Rear tire than me,I'm running a 880 yet by that it lets some power get away,mine is still the factory belt with my build.
So for the street it works,On the track way Diff. A few years ago we went to the track down by Appleton
And a few buds ran there bikes one Had a 95" and the other had the 107 that beat my Ole 95" both took off and just about dump them before the 60Ft mark,ass end sliding all over the place mind you they had street tires on them,we watched other bike of all makes go down the track also they all seemed to baby it out of the box,and it was a good thing because I always was thinking with my bike I wound just stage it about 3000 or so and hammer it,Boy that might have been a bad Idea,it works on the street but not at the track,and if it did hook up with the front wheel in the air where it goes who knows hopefully strait down the track,I think you have the Right guy to get it down the track in a fast pace,Sorry for the ramble, Mike..... :scratch:
Something to try when you get a chance. It's gets a little busy but found it out by accident because of a hot clutch.
Bring up your rpms, let the clutch out enough to feel the bike wanting to move forward and hold the front brake to keep the bike from creeping forward. Crank open the throttle as you let off of the front brake and see how you like it. Moderate from there. You are in much better control at this point because your drivetrain is all loaded up like a line lock. Your bike can be controlled better without the sudden shock to the drivetrain from dumping the clutch.
I myself never drop the clutch.I always tighten the drive train,I'm still running a stock belt on my scooter from 2006 and she pulled over 150 by BVBOB's shop, but He is building something to kick my Butt and he will do so,I have doubt,but back to basics,I over did it with mine because I will never run it to its ability because,I for one do not have the Gonads to do it,I wish I did,but as you get Older your out look on life change's,but as far as I'v been is I have taken it to the point to where I have not looked at any tail lite's,and before any one thinks that I my scooter is the fastest one around by far NOT, Pick Your Battles,The Nice thing about big heavy Ultra striped down is they never think you got a Chance,while you have the tunes playing some blues music
With a smoky treat in your Chops,just liven life,until the next lite when they ask you WHAT THE HELL YOU RUNNING IN THAT THING,And you look over and just smile and tell them just a ole man on a ole Harley,In my books that is Priceless, HEY JAM THATS JUST THE WAY I ROLL.. :wink: sorry to get off track but I had to tell ya......
I like your analogy Mike. I was just talking about running a bike at the strip and how a guy might get a feel of things the first time out. A fast bagger is a sleeper and a big eye opener as you have said. Ray obviously has one of these and he will put shame on many who want to play.
Quote from: groundhog135 on July 21, 2014, 01:28:50 PM
The countdown is on to Xenia😎
cant wait :bike:
you don't have a seat with a little back support laying around do you?
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null_zps5b74efc7.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null_zps5b74efc7.jpg.html)
or might have to do this :teeth:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg.html)
I think Randy (groundhog135) just recently bought a mustang solo seat with a backrest.
I don't know if it will fit on my 08 frame or not...I'll ask him today if it will fit on mine...and if it does fit...I'll see if I can borrow it for the weekend.
Bad news is they have thunder storms forecasted around here for Saturday and Sunday. :doh:
Ray
Jim
I could run you down one of my C&C solo w/rest. Doesn't have to be from the BfH.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 02:51:23 AM
or might have to do this :teeth: There are many mysterious valves and plumbing around that engine.That fairing may have a slightly better drag cofficient,and frontal area than a stocker.I take it AMRA gives a lot of leeway here.It does look nice and evil.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg.html)
Quote from: Cracked Head on July 22, 2014, 06:23:20 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 02:51:23 AM
or might have to do this :teeth: There are many mysterious valves and plumbing around that engine.That fairing may have a slightly better drag cofficient,and frontal area than a stocker.I take it AMRA gives a lot of leeway here.It does look nice and evil.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg.html)
That's Steve Caldwells 103 ci shovel head . Two stage nos . Runs low 11's .
Steve used to be the man to beat in the dresser class.
He only gets to a few races a year now . Really cool bike , and a super nice guy .
Just a ? What kinda power does that MoCheine run with the two stage NOS?
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 05:31:12 PM
Quote from: Cracked Head on July 22, 2014, 06:23:20 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 02:51:23 AM
or might have to do this :teeth: There are many mysterious valves and plumbing around that engine.That fairing may have a slightly better drag cofficient,and frontal area than a stocker.I take it AMRA gives a lot of leeway here.It does look nice and evil.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg.html)
That's Steve Caldwells 103 ci shovel head . Two stage nos . Runs low 11's .
Steve used to be the man to beat in the dresser class.
He only gets to a few races a year now . Really cool bike , and a super nice guy .
Is Steve an relation to Tom Caldwell, the former AHDRA prostock racer?
Quote from: turboprop on July 22, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 05:31:12 PM
Quote from: Cracked Head on July 22, 2014, 06:23:20 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2014, 02:51:23 AM
or might have to do this :teeth: There are many mysterious valves and plumbing around that engine.That fairing may have a slightly better drag cofficient,and frontal area than a stocker.I take it AMRA gives a lot of leeway here.It does look nice and evil.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/3e96179a-0c87-4013-b1df-274069d0909a.jpg.html)
That's Steve Caldwells 103 ci shovel head . Two stage nos . Runs low 11's .
Steve used to be the man to beat in the dresser class.
He only gets to a few races a year now . Really cool bike , and a super nice guy .
Is Steve an relation to Tom Caldwell, the former AHDRA prostock racer?
I don't think so Ed.
Tom is running a 8.80 bike in AMRA . I think he has another bike he runs as well . Pro gas or pro mod .
Mike
The story goes 180 hp . With the big nos jets
Quote from: Black Diamond on July 22, 2014, 06:08:11 AM
Jim
I could run you down one of my C&C solo w/rest. Doesn't have to be from the BfH.
Thanks Jeff .
If randy dosen't have one . Sure . I am off work the rest of the week, be around all day .
As long as it isn't Lexi's seat . :angry:
that pic of steve's bike was taken during qualifying .
the next day steve and I went to the finals against each other .
he's faster than me ,so I had to get out on him.
race was won on the line . as he ran a quicker time. but he couldn't make it up.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-21.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-21.jpg.html)
.046 MOV, you had him by roughly a bike length at the stripe, good job on the bulb there Jim :up:
That was a great race.
Wish I could of seen it.... :agree:
Quote from: Nowhereman on June 10, 2014, 06:17:24 AM
That's it....
I've been trolling in and outta here from time to time to see WTF the conversations are about.
I've come to the conclusion that you guys are really just a bunch of old Jewish women at a sewing circle. :hyst:
From this day on, I will never look upon this thread again as the cerebral gain in any type of wisdom has long past.
When the quilt is finished, you will all look at each other and be saddened by the fact that you got a lot older and still do not understand the real meaning of sumping and it's effects on the national budget... :wtf:
OK, that was just a bunch of fragmented thoughts; what were we talking about..... :oops:
I see you went trolling thru the thread here again after all. I guess you had to see what the old women in the sewing circle was up to...huh :hyst: :wink:
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 14, 2014, 07:16:29 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 14, 2014, 03:51:14 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2014, 04:32:20 PM
Here's a news flash that I thought a few of you's might be interested in.
The old Duracell is making it's maiden voyage down the drag strip here in a few weeks at Xenia Raceway.
Strokerjlk is going to pilot it and run it thru it's paces.
I just hope he is not going to be too disappointed in it.
So...everybody come out and help me cheer Jim on!
Ray
:up: :up:
Where is Xenia Raceway?
Is it 1/8 or 1/4 mile?
Thanks Ray . That takes the pressure off getting this 88 er back up .
Not being able to make the race this past weekend, was killing me .
We will see where she's at and go from there as to what class/classes to run .
Eric it's a 1/4 mile track , with a lazer milled concrete surface . It's a fast track .
Best of luck to all this weekend.
I will be looking forward to lots of pics and run information to keep us informed until the ESPN movie
"
The Builder, The Tuner, and a Little Barn Build" comes out.
Thanks Eric.
I took off work today to do a few final things to get ready for this week end. I'm borrowing Randy's (groundhog135)'s Mustang solo seat to bolt it on the bike because his seat has a backrest...a little anti butt sliding off feature that might be needed. I got to get a tag for my trailer today too...my old one expired.
I just hope the weather doesn't turn out like they have it forecasted to be. I just watched the local news and the weather channel and it's not looking very promising on both channels. They have storms forecasted for both Saturday & Sunday around here...go figure :doh:
Ray
All the best for the weekend to you and Jim. Here's hoping the weather holds. :beer: Bring your gear with you Ray. You may get a chance to do a pass and get the feel of a prepped track. I'll talk to the big guy for you and ask him to send that wet stuff around you.
You have a large following here that just want to see you (and the coppertop) get some experience so don't worry about us. Stay focused on your day and enjoy the day and everything you can learn on the weekend. :up: :up: :up: We all know you'll share with us later. :wink:
So far the beginning of this weekend isn't starting out good for me now. The excitement I had building...quickly went away.
I went over to Randy's (groundhog135) to put his seat with the backrest on liked we planned yesterday.
His son came out of the house when I pull the bike around by the garage door and he told me Randy apparently had a heart attack yesterday just a couple of hours later after I spoke to him on the phone. :emsad:
Chad (his son) said they kept him in the hospital over night and did blood work and testing. The good news is they are letting him out and he is coming home today. :teeth:
This screwed my head up badly to hear that Randy had another heart attack. He has already had by pass surgery.
I pray for the best for you Rich Kid...you better not scare me like that anymore!
Ray
Sorry to hear that! Hope the best for Randy, he come home quick and strong!
Ray .. Don't worry about me .
Do what you need to do . Lifelong friends are WAY more important than a race .
Randy my prayers for a speedy recovery . Damn I was looking forward to seeing you this weekend :soda:
Randy just called me on the phone. He's home and said he is not going to be able to make it to the races this weekend...dah really :slap:
I'm riding over to see him right now.
He to me come over and get that seat and go racin...so I am.
Ray
Prayer's out to Randy.
Just got back from Randy's...he seems to be doing fine.
We put his seat on and got it race ready.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
You should probably test that seat today to make sure it works!
Glad to hear Randy is doing well. We plan for tomorrow, but live for today.
Best of luck to Jim and Ray , hope the weather holds off for you guys . I will be looking forward to seeing some mid 10's time slips :chop:
Wheels up pics please :pop:
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 25, 2014, 10:19:27 AM
Best of luck to Jim and Ray , hope the weather holds off for you guys . I will be looking forward to seeing some mid 10's time slips :chop:
He will need an acme rocket on that bike to hit a mid 10. That's a heavy bike to move down the track quickly.
Is the race track at sea level or elevation?
Here is to hoping the weather holds out for you guys.. I am anxious to see the victorious results, good luck! Wish I was making it. :beer:
Josh...you'll probably need to add at least a second to that mid 10's. If it does go under the 12's...I think it will be doing good for where the engine sits at right now and it being it's 1st time down the strip.
Who knows...maybe Jim can get it to launch hard right off the line and keep it going straight down the track and it will shock me with a decent time :nix: I'm sure he will have to feel it out.
The weather isn't looking good around here already. The sun was out all morning and now the heavy clouds are moving in quickly.
I guess we'll see how the weather is in the morning.
I just hate to see Jim make the long trip from Illinois and it be a wash out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for good weather. If the bike does hit the track...I promise I will take some pictures for you guys.
Thanks for all the well wishes.
Ray
Ray you might be surprised, hey buddy of mine with a full grown bagger with a 107 ran high 12's
Slipping out of the box, I'll bet a box of beer he will do a lot better if he can get it hooked up!
The softer back tire I got hooks up pretty good. It doesn't like to spin a whole lot. The old Metzeler I had would spin thru 3 gears if you twist the wick hard on it. This Pirelli doesn't do that...it just transfers the power to the ground and makes the front end lighter.
I'm sure Jim will like playing with it.
Ray
rain delay :emsad:
I had to back the trailer up into the barn.
Ray
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Ray I take it you like Budweiser..... :hyst: And as for the rear tire I still run the 880 myself on mine because I still run the stock belt, and just think at one time I had talked to Frank over at Draggo's and was going to hang a charger on the side of the 131,and he is the guy that talked me into putting the Tman 662-2 cam's in..... :potstir: I really like the way Frank thinks(BIG) actually too big for me,I got what I was looking for,I think but you never know..... :scratch:
I have a friend that owned a bar. He would give me a lot of stuff that the beer vendors would give him. Bud, Miller, Heinekin, etc all gave him signs and posters and all kinds of junk. I was lucky and I got a real nice neon Bud sign from him one time...it's pretty cool.
I never turned down any of his freebies.
Ray
Nothing like covering all the Topics that started as a 124"build than it went to bikes,beer,babe's,drag racing hell we covered it all,But back on track I have some Pabst signs in the basement that might need a new home I'll take some pic's for you if you and only you are interested. And Ray this has been one Hell of a story....... :wink:
Ray , maybe Im being a little optimistic but seeing Jim's reaction times and your barn built 124" having almost 150 hp is a great combination ! I wish you guys the best and hope it clears up for you out there .
11.7 on my FXST120r, Jim will get your fire breather into the high 10's low 11's
I just hope that the only thing wet on that track this weekend is the water box.
Ray- Im pretty fair on a track .usually nail .0something's on the tree and a best time of 12.32 on a RoadKing that has approx 35 less hp than you. While my bike weighs a fair bit less (approx 725lbs now) I still stand by my 11.4 cutting a good/great light. You have the hp and have the gearing. :up:
With reaction time having nothing to do with ET, the 60ft will be key to getting the best ET.
Jim is a very capable rider and will get the most out of it, i agree Marty that a mid 11 second pass is probably where it will land :up:
Now the Rain has to stop!
Spoke with David Dennick at the motel tonight. He humbly acknowledged to me that he in fact did run a 10.39 last week in Maryland . :beer:
Thats hauling Azz on a 950 lbs bagger . The AMRA record he now holds is 10.506
So this weekend might just be a new record . To match his personal best .
Everybody is going faster . :up:
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2014, 07:49:04 AM
So far the beginning of this weekend isn't starting out good for me now. The excitement I had building...quickly went away.
I went over to Randy's (groundhog135) to put his seat with the backrest on liked we planned yesterday.
His son came out of the house when I pull the bike around by the garage door and he told me Randy apparently had a heart attack yesterday just a couple of hours later after I spoke to him on the phone. :emsad:
Chad (his son) said they kept him in the hospital over night and did blood work and testing. The good news is they are letting him out and he is coming home today. :teeth:
This screwed my head up badly to hear that Randy had another heart attack. He has already had by pass surgery.
I pray for the best for you Rich Kid...you better not scare me like that anymore!
Ray
Have a friend who went thru this Heart attack thing with a bypass.
They put him on thinners and other drugs that he did not like.
Ready for this? He went Vegan and after a year of it his heart and arteries were in better shape than after surgery.
He still is on that diet and says it's not bad at all.
Doc is taking him off some of the meds too.
Just sharing... :wink:
What DA will the bike be running in?
Best time Saturday was a 11.85 with a 1.900 60' time.
It's not hooking up off the line...or just wheeling.
Looks like it will be going home after the first round today.
We drew the guy that ran the 10.39 last week in Maryland.
Ray
That's not bad with street tires,I was thinkin that was going to be an issue a slipper clutch maybe,and as for who you guy drew for today well someone is going to need A game today
And we are here win,lose,draw,We are behind you,Good luck Ray And Jim
Nice for the first day at the track. :up: :up:
As for the race, don't count yourself out, there are a million ways to lose a race and only one way to win.
Jim has played with air pressure and fattened up the tune a little.
We both think it will go faster...it's just finding out what it wants to come off the line better.
If it would do a little better 60' time...it should be a little quicker. There seems to be more in it...it's just getting it out of it.
Ray
Great job Ray ! Did you get to make any runs ?
And hopefully you got some live video...... :wink:
I got a couple videos posted on my Facebook page.
Ray Edwards on Facebook
You have a lot more there. Just need to get her dialed in. My Electra Glide will run low 1.8' 60' times all day long with stock tire and your bike will easily outdo that. What were the trap speeds?
Joel 2001 FLHT
Ray,
Some of us aren't facebook types. Will you be posting any videos here in the 124" thread? BTW, congrats on the first run at the track. All things considered, with no previous track time, it sounds like a decent showing. Now that you've got the itch you'll have to keep scratching. Thanks for sharing.
Yup Ray just watch both,more track time I think Jim would get a handle on that monster,No hook up in the first run and way to much in the second run,hope you guys can find the middle of the two and you'll be set..... :wink:
I tried looking you up on Facebook but there are a thousand Ray Edwards out there. Give me a link.
:agree: please post a link , I spent 30 minutes looking for Ray Edwards , couldnt find you
https://www.facebook.com/people/Ray-Edwards/100007748927718 (https://www.facebook.com/people/Ray-Edwards/100007748927718)
Hey Ray.. sorry bout the rain today. Glad we got to meet and talk with you guys yesterday. Thanks for the link as well, tracy has facebook. Got a good steak and had a nice ride home last night, no rain. Enjoyed looking over the duracell bike and strokers blue bike as well..thanks guys for the hospitality... Scott and Tracy
Just page through the search of Ray Edwards and watch for a pic of the coppertop. I couldn't access it cuz I don't have a facebook acct.
I'll put a few videos up of the weekend.
http://youtu.be/w1hh60wpDcs (http://youtu.be/w1hh60wpDcs)
this was the Duracell's best run...a 11.85.
This was against the guy that qualified #1 and set a new track record.
http://youtu.be/a_zokW6XUi0 (http://youtu.be/a_zokW6XUi0)
Now for the bad news...the bike did it's 1st test and tune run Sunday morning and the clutch apparently gave up the ghost.
The bike would creep forward with the clutch lever pulled all the way in as soon as you dropped it in gear. I pulled the derby cover and we tried to adjust the clutch rod...but it didn't change anything. I felt bad and was disappointed that it didn't get to run in the bracket races. It would of actually had to go up against a bike that runs in the mid 10's...so it just eased my pain of seeing a major spanking I guess.
So I put the bike on the trailer and I'll have to pull the primary apart to see what's going on with it.
All in all I had a great time at the track and I want to thank Jim for running the bike for me.
Now Durwood...about those tool box keys :hyst:
Ray
Now Durwood...about those tool box keys
:teeth:
Ray for the first time at the track you and Jim both did good,you have a mark to beat next time,Maybe put jim in the pits and you run the ole Duracell...... :hyst: What clutch are you running anyways? Maybe the clutch rod chit the bed,Didn't that happen to you before IIRC ?
If you need help with that Tool Box I know some people that know some people,Just let me know make,model,and color..... :pop:
Quote from: No Cents on July 27, 2014, 02:09:12 PM
I'll put a few videos up of the weekend.
http://youtu.be/w1hh60wpDcs (http://youtu.be/w1hh60wpDcs)
That boy leaves hard! So what does he got that you ain't got?
I'm don't have a full face helmet or any leather pants...as of yet Bob. Jim was kind enough to put it thru it's shake down paces for me.
The next time the bike hits the track I'll be running it.
I have to set up a tether to the off/on switch before they will let me run it again. I didn't have that set up.
The bike is on the lift right now and I have the primary cover off. I came into the house to get something to drink and I'm headed back out to see what I can find.
First glance at the primary...everything looks fine...but pull the clutch lever in and it doesn't sound good.
Yes Mike...you are correct...I lost a throw out bearing on Jim's dyno when I 1st built this engine.
I'll know more within the hour.
Ray
I think the clutch was slipping the whole time.
I took the clutch rod adjuster out and pulled off the TTP...and then took the friction plates out and the steels.
I took a pencil magnet and pulled the clutch adjuster rod out and it looked fine...at least it wasn't welded to the throw out bearing this time.
Here is what my steels looked like :dgust:
Ray
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How does the clutch basket itself look like? I'm no expert with HD clutch,but I don't see any blue hot spots like we see in the class 7/8 big trucks when they don't work :pop:
the basket looks good.
I guess I need to take a better picture.
The steels are blued to hell and back.
Ray
Yup I could not see at first lite setting on my IPad set way low,me can see the light now or should I say the blue.... :hyst: wow that clutch isn't that old is it?
I wound have thought you wouldn't loose the clutch travel or gain it,just slipping of the clutch
How was the free play if you can call it that?
No...maybe 2 years old.
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I've been running Amsoil Super Shift ATF in it all the clutches life in the bike. I just had these steels out a week or so ago and they looked good as new :nix:
I switched and tried B&M Trick Shift this go around. I don't know if it was the B&M that caused it...but it sure was slipping and got hot.
Ray
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I just went back to the beginning of this post,and see the clutch set up your running Primo with the gold springs, what do they Rate that set up for? I'm think your going to need a lot more clutch,I run the bandit in my bikes and on the big motor bike I have all the shims and heaviest springs they have because I thought I was getting clutch slipping,turns out the ole Dunlap I had on it was spinning,the guys following me informed me of that..... :hyst:
BVBOB even stuck one in my last build,My does pull hard but I'm use to it,and don't have to worry about the slip as far as I know of,4000 mile on the big bike still work great.Oh I am running 80wt spectro
I definitely need to explore a better clutch set up :banghead:
I was debating on getting new steel and frictions for this set up...but now I don't know what to do.
I wonder what the bike would have ran with this damn clutch not slipping :scratch:
I'm going to have to start a new thread to see what responses I get for a clutch set up that will hold up to what I need.
Yup I hear ya,My vote is for the bandit like I was saying that what I run behind my 131 and no issues to date,and I have not been easy on it now that I know what to expect from the bike..
Good luck mike
Bandit custom ( 1957-1974 sportster ) with MTC 6 finger lock up . Splined for your application Not a 500.00 Bandit Sportsman .
Then you can control your wheelie out of the hole
I'm thinking your blowing past the TPP and it is having a hard time catching up for full lock up. :nix:
Quote from: jam65 on July 27, 2014, 06:24:03 PM
I'm thinking your blowing past the TPP and it is having a hard time catching up for full lock up. :nix:
I bet you're right.
Rivera just don't have the chit .
Been through this with mine .
I have 650 psi of spring pressure on mine now and the clutch hooks hard . Tire is another story .
Got to have the adjustability of the 6 finger lock up .
I managed a 11.4 out of my bike .
I really feel rays has some more in it . But it's still gonna be about 40 hp shy of being competitive . Until :fish:
What is that guy running for an engine combo? Adding 40 ponies NA is going to get expensive as you know.
It's doing something alright...that's for sure.
It fried all the steels in the clutch pack except one.
I'm scratching my head right now as to what to do to fix it.
As you's can see in the crappy video's I shot...it's lifting the front end skyward...even with the clutch slipping.
I need to be able to launch this thing and keep the front end lifting to a minimum.
I watched that guy that's holding the bagger record and his bike travels thru 1st gear with the tire less than a foot off the ground and he bangs 2nd and it raises up a touch and then he short shifts 3rd gear...and he's gone like a bat out of hell.
That set up Jim's talking about is something I'm going to have to check into.
All's I know is what I've got in it right now...isn't cutting the mustard.
Is there a cure for blowing past the TPP on this set up I've got?
Ray
Ray how does the inner primary look behind the ring gear?
Any signs you are flexing the main shaft?
I'll have to look tomorrow...it's bed time.
5am comes early.
Ray
Ray .. Thanks so much . I had a blast . I hope some of that Adrenaline rush rubbed off and your hooked now . :teeth:
I might have enough decent steels to get you by until you step the clutch up .
And you could always throw a black spring on with the gold spring like I did .
But to be competitive . You need to work your magic on bandit . Have them to make you a 6 finger setup . the 57-74 hub is the best setup . Unless there is a chance it will get the the power level, that it needs a sintered setup , that hub isn't absolutely mandatory.
Two people you need to talk to ...energy 1 and then bandit
I really like your calm approach in the pits . Kinda balances things out . Thanks again :beer:
Quote from: jam65 on July 27, 2014, 06:40:29 PM
What is that guy running for an engine combo? Adding 40 ponies NA is going to get expensive as you know.
Ray has a list of everything he needs .
# 1 was B2 heads
But that probably went to # 2 now .. After clutch
The rest is minor details
Shift light
Elec over air shifter .
Mod for 180 tire
The ole Duracell needs to go on a diet
Green backs :crook:
Thanks to the both of you (Ray and Jim) for taking us HTT guys along for the ride this weekend. I love this stuff.
Quote from: jam65 on July 27, 2014, 07:25:08 PM
Thanks to the both of you (Ray and Jim) for taking us HTT guys along for the ride this weekend. I love this stuff.
Jay
Went to the semi's in E class on my bike ... Pink lighted against Huffman .
And he was taking a nap :banghead:... Damn
going on the diet would be the easy thing. It's easy to get rid of the crash bar and a few other things to reduce the weight.
The B2's did fall down lower on the list now. I have to address this clutch issue first thing.
I'll call Energy 1 and Bandit today if I get the time at work and see what they have to offer.
I had a blast too!
Thanks for putting up with me.
My next trip to the track...I'll be a little better prepared.
Ray
Have you looked at a two stage rev limiter?
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 27, 2014, 08:53:29 PM
Quote from: jam65 on July 27, 2014, 07:25:08 PM
Thanks to the both of you (Ray and Jim) for taking us HTT guys along for the ride this weekend. I love this stuff.
Jay
Went to the semi's in E class on my bike ... Pink lighted against Huffman .
And he was taking a nap :banghead:... Damn
Semi's are good, :up: Congrats Jim... Yeah, it is disheartening to go red as the opponent is reading the daily paper...
Great job. I wish I was able to see you guys there. When is your next race?
I talked to Bandit clutch today. They suggested for me to run their Sportsman clutch and to call Nacho at Evo Industries and use their forged basket with the Sportsman clutch. The gentleman told me which springs to start with and how many shims would be a good starting point. He said that set up would hold 200 horsepower all day long.
No sooner than I hung up with Bandit...my cell phone rang. Low and behold it was John from Rivera Primo. He said he was informed by a member on here that I had issues with my Pro Clutch this past weekend. Apparently he seen the pictures I posted of my steels and said he wanted to make it good. John said they recently re-designed their gold spring and he would send me a new one with a new spring pack to go along with it for free. He said my care package will be on my door step in the next day or two.
I was floored and didn't know what to say besides "thank you".
He said they have tested this new set up and it's holding a lot more horsepower than their old set up was like I was running. He didn't want me to give up on their product and he said this one will hold way in excess of the horsepower I've got right now.
Now that is what I call excellent customer service!
And a big thanks to the member on here (which I will leave un-named)...that let Primo know of the troubles I had! :hug:
It's having friends like that...that makes me proud to be a member of this forum.
Thanks,
Ray
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 28, 2014, 10:21:49 AM
Have you looked at a two stage rev limiter?
no I haven't...but that's a very good idea.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 28, 2014, 02:46:50 PM
I talked to Bandit clutch today. They suggested for me to run their Sportsman clutch and to call Nacho at Evo Industries and use their forged basket with the Sportsman clutch. The gentleman told me which springs to start with and how many shims would be a good starting point. He said that set up would hold 200 horsepower all day long.
No sooner than I hung up with Bandit...my cell phone rang. Low and behold it was John from Rivera Primo. He said he was informed by a member on here that I had issues with my Pro Clutch this past weekend. Apparently he seen the pictures I posted of my steels and said he wanted to make it good. John said they recently re-designed their gold spring and he would send me a new one with a new spring pack to go along with it for free. He said my care package will be on my door step in the next day or two.
I was floored and didn't know what to say besides "thank you".
He said they have tested this new set up and it's holding a lot more horsepower than their old set up was like I was running. He didn't want me to give up on their product and he said this one will hold way in excess of the horsepower I've got right now.
Now that is what I call excellent customer service!
And a big thanks to the member on here (which I will leave un-named)...that let Primo know of the troubles I had! :hug:
It's having friends like that...that makes me proud to be a member of this forum.
Thanks,
Ray
Good stuff Ray, good stuff! :up:
Big diff in holding 200 hp and launching 200 hp .
Mine is holding 190 hp . No thanks to Rivera . Every time I talk to them, they tell me a silver spring is good for 140 and a gold for 160 hp. So I don't have much faith in their new 480 spring.
Glad they are sending you some new parts ray . Saving some face there .
Wonder when they will send me mine . :hyst:
I will put it in and take it to Martin MI. next month for some testing if they really want some track testing . My guess Is it will be the same as what I have already learned .
Set it up to slip and launch good ,then it will start slipping on the big end at the end of the track
You know what you need for the track . But this will get you going for the street .
:agree:
it will put me back on the street and I'll play with it a little when I get it back together.
I'm not having much luck finding that MTC 6 finger deal for my bike that your talking about.
Where do you stand Ray on the EVO basket? It is a very nice piece that should be on the top of your list. Consider it insurance against trashing all those really expensive goodies in the engine.
Quote from: jam65 on July 28, 2014, 06:28:18 PM
Where do you stand Ray on the EVO basket? It is a very nice piece that should be on the top of your list. Consider it insurance against trashing all those really expensive goodies in the engine.
I like mine. :up: They're built tough!
Hi Ray, this what you need Bandit sell it minus outer primary,is a Barnett.[attach=0]
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Free: New Rivera Primo Clutch Check
B2 Heads back to the top of list :potstir:
Quote from: John/1 on July 28, 2014, 07:11:26 PM
Hi Ray, this what you need Bandit sell it minus outer primary,is a Barnett.You will have access to clutch pack and lock-up without removing outer.Jim was right when he said there is a difference in holding and managing hp. attachimg=1]
Hi,ray I use short gold springs with a soffffffffffffffffffffffft lever pull less than 200 lbs spring pressure.[attach=0]
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that's a nice looking set up there John!
Quote from: No Cents on July 28, 2014, 07:46:20 PM
that's a nice looking set up there John!
Hi Ray,ok thanks your gonna need a prep trans to.It cost 5 or 6 big one's.For super clutch,mtc lock-up,barnet outer,electric over air shifter,co2 air bottle and reg.Plus trans prep. with 2.94st,2.08nd.(I'd run all Andrews gears and shafts,2nd gear the 2.08 is a Baker)My b
bakers 6 spd has all Andrews gears and shafts except for 2nd the 2.08.
John
Nacho is no longer at EVO.. I agree on the holding the power and launching the power . Street vs strip. But I am only pulling down 1.69 60 foot times so I have more work there. But I did cut a hell of a light .0203.last time out ....... Drag racing is fun enjoy it. I dont think I would do anything to the clutch other than rebuild it maybe slight upgrade. Build a drag bike and keep the bagger for the hot street set up. SUper nice bagger that can hold its own. Nothing wrong there. I have my eye on a vrod that would be a ton of fun , be very quick and not be a parts breaker and still be somewhat low cost.
Have gone down this path and you end up with something that is close to nothing. Its not street its not strip, very hard to have the "best" of both,.... But then again I am not 8 up. :teeth:. I dont care if I win or loose at the track its just fun for me.
Not poking fun in any way.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on July 29, 2014, 06:00:53 AM
Nacho is no longer at EVO.. I agree on the holding the power and launching the power . Street vs strip. But I am only pulling down 1.69 60 foot times so I have more work there. But I did cut a hell of a light .0203.last time out ....... Drag racing is fun enjoy it. I dont think I would do anything to the clutch other than rebuild it maybe slight upgrade. Build a drag bike and keep the bagger for the hot street set up. SUper nice bagger that can hold its own. Nothing wrong there. I have my eye on a vrod that would be a ton of fun , be very quick and not be a parts breaker and still be somewhat low cost.
Have gone down this path and you end up with something that is close to nothing. Its not street its not strip, very hard to have the "best" of both,.... But then again I am not 8 up. :teeth:. I dont care if I win or loose at the track its just fun for me.
well said Steve :agree:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on July 29, 2014, 06:00:53 AM
Nacho is no longer at EVO.. I agree on the holding the power and launching the power . Street vs strip. But I am only pulling down 1.69 60 foot times so I have more work there. But I did cut a hell of a light .0203.last time out ....... Drag racing is fun enjoy it. I dont think I would do anything to the clutch other than rebuild it maybe slight upgrade. Build a drag bike and keep the bagger for the hot street set up. SUper nice bagger that can hold its own. Nothing wrong there. I have my eye on a vrod that would be a ton of fun , be very quick and not be a parts breaker and still be somewhat low cost.
Have gone down this path and you end up with something that is close to nothing. Its not street its not strip, very hard to have the "best" of both,.... But then again I am not 8 up. :teeth:. I dont care if I win or loose at the track its just fun for me.
Not poking fun in any way.
the current clutch set up will never take it to the winner circle .
stock v rods at the track don't last too long. they take there own mods to the bottom end to be reliable .
spoken like a true looser .... :emoGroan:
[/quote]
the current clutch set up will never take it to the winner circle .
stock v rods at the track don't last too long. they take there own mods to the bottom end to be reliable .
spoken like a true looser .... :emoGroan:
[/quote]
Never said anything about the winners line up there.
He has a clutch that is worn out. Its not a drag bike.. its a street bike that needs a ton of money to be in the circle as you so put it. If Ray wants to go that route great , But my point was that he has a very nice bike that is a heavy hitter on the street and is more than caplabe of laying down a great ET. AND still be a bike that can go cross country.
Touring means different things to different people. But going to be hard pressed to have the B2 headed monster with the complete set up to run the 1/4 and win along with still being a outstanding touring bike as well .
I agree a stock vrod is not the best but then again I am in it for fun. In stock form they will take a huge beating and not fail. See it almost every weekend at the track . Its not a winner that is correct but I would bet that you would be wrong if you say that the owner is not having fun.. And the vrod was something I am looking at
I see guys that have a blast with very slow vehicles , bikes trucks cars what ever. Its about the sport , many tend to forget that.
As for the last comment , If being a looser is what I am in your opinion thats fine with me :up: Have a great day Jim.
I love racing guys like you ..... :hyst:
either you go to win or you stay on the porch
Sounds like a grudge match in the making!
QuoteAs for the last comment , If being a looser is what I am in your opinion thats fine with me :up: Have a great day Jim.
at the track steve ...I meant at the track
rays bike was a just for fun outing . I entered it in the bagger class hoping it would run a low 11.
pretty confident it would run a mid 11. but I also knew that there was going to be a record pass in the class this past weekend. I could have entered it in E class (dial in) and seriously raced his bike.
I choose to run my bike in that class. and use his bike for the heads up bagger class. just because that's the class ray wants to build a bike to run in. I was still serious about winning ,or at least going to the finals. we had three break singles in the dresser class this weekend . so anything can happen.
if ray was just wanting to take his bike and run E class ,don't change nothing . just go racing and dial it in like it is now.
but if you don't go to win .....why bother ?
QuoteI dont care if I win or loose at the track its just fun for me.
statements like this are made when losers are loading the trailer ,after going out first round
I wish my bike would of at least made it to the first round :emsad:
I talked to Bandit again today. John/1...they don't even offer their Super Clutch with a MTC six finger lock up for the 07-up models...just 06 and down. He said they do have a three finger set up for my model year and no one has ever requested a six finger for the 07- ups.
Jeff @ Bandit said they could probably make something up with a 2 stage six finger to fit on my model year bike...but I would have to fab up a custom outer primary cover about 1 1/2" wider in the derby cover area to clear the MTC. He said it wouldn't be very street friendly and he wouldn't suggest doing it if the bike is ever ran on the street.
Jeff was going to talk with John @ Bandit today to see if they can figure out a good plan of attack for me.
I told Jeff I wanted to be able to stage on the line and be able to go to the rev limiter and drop the clutch lever and not have the bike stand straight up and down.
Ray
When I asked they said they could do it in belt drive . :scratch:
3 finger works good on a light sportster .
Take some testing , but if its your only option. That's what you need to do .
Just for chits and giggles . If you want to race a Martin ?
Throw the pistons and Cams of choice in , new parts from Rivera .
Get it over for a "racer" tune ( on me for letting me race her last week ) , and lets see what she will do .
If nothing else you can run SE 11:50 index and E class .
I even have a spare bar you can use , if you so desire .
I'm going to say this nicely,Ray don't do it,kinda sounds like here smoke this it's not that bad for you,Ray your going to get HOOKED...... :hyst:
Honestly Jim I got some thinking to do before I change things up any. I need a good game plan and I already see a long list of parts that I'll need.
I feel if I'm wanting to be competitive in the dresser class that I will have to step up to the level these guys are at...or stay on the porch...and I'm not ready for the rocking chair just yet :hyst:
I'll need to go to a lot higher compression than the +4cc domed pistons I have sitting on the shelf will give me...with more than likely some nicely loved on B2 heads. Then once I squeeze the B2's on...then I'll have to change my exhaust because it's not going to fit with the added height of the B2's. So I'll have to make me a new pipe...more than likely a short set of drag pipes instead of my 2n1.
And of course I'll have to address this clutch set up thing, and then spend some really big dollars on having the tranny worked over so it will able to hold all of this.
Then there is the electric over air shifter, a shift light, bigger t/body for the B2's...and the list keeps going.
As you can see the wheels have been turning in my head...and I'm not in the position to spend that kind of money on my bike yet to make it a strip only bike.
I still plan on putting my +4cc domed pistons in this fall and set it up for a little higher lift cam to play with until I retire. I'll take it to the track a few times just for giggles and chits to see how it does with that combo...but I know right now as sure as I'm sitting here that it's still going to be sucking hind tit after seeing what these guys are bringing to the game. Those guys are on their "A" games and are not riding those bikes on the street for fun. They are full out race bikes and a guy like me that rides his daily doesn't stand a chance with them.
But...once I retire in 18 months...then it will be game on for me...and time for me to get serious with them boys :wink:
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 29, 2014, 01:16:39 PM
When I asked they said they could do it in belt drive . :scratch:
3 finger works good on a light sportster .
Take some testing , but if its your only option. That's what you need to do .
Jeff did say if I had to have the six finger that they do offer it in a belt drive system...eliminating the comp. I think Thumper is going to be running this set up on his bike.
When it comes to being in full game mode...that is what I'll have to run.
And that right there is a great way to look at it Ray fix your clutch Ray,and ride on,them boys there are in a different game,than guys like us,And there is nothing wrong with that,Very Very hard to have a bike for both as someone else said,and I even gained more RESPECT for you Ray
By the choice you have made!
Ray - If a wider rear tire is in your future you may want to give Paul Richards over at Native Custom Baggers a call. He has a very nice fender (all steel) that is pretty cost effective and fits like stock. I put one on the back of my 07 when I switched over to a 180 a few months ago.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2014, 02:23:51 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 29, 2014, 01:16:39 PM
When I asked they said they could do it in belt drive . :scratch:
3 finger works good on a light sportster .
Take some testing , but if its your only option. That's what you need to do .
Jeff did say if I had to have the six finger that they do offer it in a belt drive system...eliminating the comp. I think Thumper is going to be running this set up on his bike.
When it comes to being in full game mode...that is what I'll have to run.
I ran the belt setup all last season. It is the smoothest operating clutch assembly I've had in the scoot so far. I put the power through a Jim's Fat5 Overdrive and I am anxious to see what kind of power the TW68G is going to give me. They sent the wrong rings so it looks like I won't be on the road this week.
My buddies 103ci. Evo making 130 something HP would run 9.6's because it was in a purpose built chassis, and was a dedicated race bike. 130hp won't get a street riden Dyna into the 10's even. That's basically what you're up against running at the track. I think Steve's advice was on track, keep the BA bagger for street duty and build a drag chassis. When you try to do both it takes the fun out of the daily driver, especially when things don't work out.
C-Cat...no frame mod's allowed. It must use the stock frame.
Here is the 2014 AMRA Dresser class rules.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: biggzed on July 29, 2014, 02:35:16 PM
Ray - If a wider rear tire is in your future you may want to give Paul Richards over at Native Custom Baggers a call. He has a very nice fender (all steel) that is pretty cost effective and fits like stock. I put one on the back of my 07 when I switched over to a 180 a few months ago.
Zach
I already see a 180 rear tire and some carbon fiber wheels with ceramic bearings on the long list of to get parts.
I've got a whole page of parts that I'll need.
Now all's I need is the cash :doh:
Remember...I'm No Cents...just a poor guy with an addiction.
Ray
When you sell the wife's bike tell her you put it storage for the winter. Get your bike set up right & hopefully by spring you'll have a way to pay her back.
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2014, 02:14:40 PM
But...once I retire in 18 months...then it will be game on for me...and time for me to get serious with them boys :wink:
Ray
Perfect plan, 18 months is just about enough time to build a competitive drag bike.
Keep running the what you have to get some track time in any class that will get you more runs and start refining the list of what you will really want to end up with 18 month from now. Don't forget to watch what the winners are doing and add it to your plans, watch what the losers are trying and don't do it.
So it's meant to be a street driven class. Are the top guys street driving their bikes? Probaly not, and don't imagine with the extra competition HP they have the drivability you have. If you've got a serious 1/4 mile # in your head go for it! I'm just saying brackets are fun, money stays in the pocket, nice looking rims stay on the bike, and you still get to hone your skills.
I'd set it up with repairing what you got. Learn the in and outs of the track. When you get to the point of out growing what you have now. Then build it up to suit your level. You might think differently than launching the bike at 6500. Gateway drag strip is about 7 miles from my shop. They have test and tune on Tuesday and Wednesday and once a month a midnight madness on Friday. Check your local track and practice.
BTW I know a guy that is making 2 hyd covers for the Fat5. Only one is spoken for.
Quote from: wfolarry on July 29, 2014, 04:43:38 PM
When you sell the wife's bike tell her you put it storage for the winter. Get your bike set up right & hopefully by spring you'll have a way to pay her back.
yes C-Cat...it's meant to be a street driven class that has got some serious (non street driven) bikes competing in it. I do plan to bump my compression a little bit and run a higher lift cams and get some quality seat time on it before turning this bike into a full time race bike like these other guys are running in the so called "street dresser class".
I want to stay alive Larry...your trying to get me killed with an idea like that...she can be a mean woman when she wants to be...all 110 pounds of her :hyst:
Eric...I've got a little nest egg built up in my 401K that I've been working on for almost 30 years now.
I just have to wait until I retire and move it over into an IRA so I can put my hands on a little bit of it without being penalized. :smilep:
Ray
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 29, 2014, 05:00:52 PM
I'd set it up with repairing what you got. Learn the in and outs of the track. When you get to the point of out growing what you have now. Then build it up to suit your level. You might think differently than launching the bike at 6500. Gateway drag strip is about 7 miles from my shop. They have test and tune on Tuesday and Wednesday and once a month a midnight madness on Friday. Check your local track and practice.
BTW I know a guy that is making 2 hyd covers for the Fat5. Only one is spoken for.
:up:
thanks Jason.
Edgewater Dragway is less than 10 miles from my house.
I tried to get there a few times on their Friday night test and tune...but it rained every time I planned to go. I even had a guy going to loan me his full face helmet that would fit over my big ass head...which I have one on my list to get also. I wear a 7 1/2 ball cap size...a lot of noggin to cover :hyst:
Thanks for the pic's of your fender biggzed!
Ray
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 29, 2014, 04:50:40 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2014, 02:14:40 PM
But...once I retire in 18 months...then it will be game on for me...and time for me to get serious with them boys :wink:
Ray
Perfect plan, 18 months is just about enough time to build a competitive drag bike.
Keep running the what you have to get some track time in any class that will get you more runs and start refining the list of what you will really want to end up with 18 month from now. Don't forget to watch what the winners are doing and add it to your plans, watch what the losers are trying and don't do it.
That's what I was getting at . Honing his skills and seeing what other Harley's are running .
And your testing on a prepped track .
Get to cutting lights now . Learn to run the groove .
Paul's bike is street legal and street ridden ray .
The rules were changed to make charging systems optional though .
Dressers don't always just run dresser class. you have to get your moneys worth.
paul is running SE 11:50 index class here
http://youtu.be/VFllf0pxNXQ (http://youtu.be/VFllf0pxNXQ)
Here is one more video of the competition I've been studying.
http://youtu.be/DAoMAJd_E5I (http://youtu.be/DAoMAJd_E5I)
and this is what he did at the same track ,last year.
that's with a bandit super clutch . no lock up
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-11.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-11.jpg.html)
Looks like a Shinko on the rear; good stuff.
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 29, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
and this is what he did at the same track ,last year.
that's with a bandit super clutch . no lock up
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-11.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-11.jpg.html)
Holy, supposed to feather it, not pop it haha :doh:
:agree:
with you Jim.
That's the difference of him popping the Bandit clutch last year vs pulling the bike up to the line this year and staging it...then going WOT to the rev limiter and popping the clutch.
They have the clutch dialed in so he can come off the line smoothly now and keep the front end down.
HUGE difference!
Jim...stop your video at .050 seconds in and take a close look at the front end of Paul's bike. It looks like he has the front end raked a little bit. He must have different triple trees on it to give him the longer rake which might help him with the way the power is being transfer too.
Ray
Leaving the line with a traditional clutch setup successfully requires determining what the right RPM should be. Leave the line at 2500 RPM, stand it straight up. In the case of my Deuce 3700 RPM would lift the front end 3" to 6" and turn the back wheel 1 to 1.5 turns when leaving the line. You can observe your bike at the line or have someone film you to see the launch and make changes. I also shifted when my rpm was 200 over my peak torque number. I had been laying a line in 2nd and 3rd because I shifted at to high an RPM. I discovered the same thing as you Ray, unless you ante up you wont be competitive.
I can easily see 15- 20K needing to be invested into my bike to be at the same level of these guys.
They have their "A" game face on...for sure.
These guys have the bar raised Gordon in the street dresser class.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 30, 2014, 02:48:31 AM
:agree:
with you Jim.
That's the difference of him popping the Bandit clutch last year vs pulling the bike up to the line this year and staging it...then going WOT to the rev limiter and popping the clutch.
They have the clutch dialed in so he can come off the line smoothly now and keep the front end down.
HUGE difference!
Jim...stop your video at .050 seconds in and take a close look at the front end of Paul's bike. It looks like he has the front end raked a little bit. He must have different triple trees on it to give him the longer rake which might help him with the way the power is being transfer too.
Ray
yes all three of those flat black baggers have a raked front end .
a ruling was made to let them run. ( the class needs some more bikes) this also opened up the rules to allow aftermarket wheels.
funny you mention the advantage . everyone was ok with it ...before one of them starting running record times. now there is talk about the extra rake giving them an advantage.
I have always though ...extra wheel base is extra leverage ,from a swing arm or a stretched front end.
but I think they should be allowed to stay now. the ruling has been made . let it stand .JMO
Quote from: gordonr on July 30, 2014, 04:03:38 AM
Leaving the line with a traditional clutch setup successfully requires determining what the right RPM should be. Leave the line at 2500 RPM, stand it straight up. In the case of my Deuce 3700 RPM would lift the front end 3" to 6" and turn the back wheel 1 to 1.5 turns when leaving the line. You can observe your bike at the line or have someone film you to see the launch and make changes. I also shifted when my rpm was 200 over my peak torque number. I had been laying a line in 2nd and 3rd because I shifted at to high an RPM. I discovered the same thing as you Ray, unless you ante up you wont be competitive.
Gordon . I know what your saying
but
where would you shift at if you were gonna shift 200 rpms after peak tq on my bike?
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/E%2085/dynosheets310.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/E%2085/dynosheets310.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 30, 2014, 05:52:10 AM
Quote from: gordonr on July 30, 2014, 04:03:38 AM
Leaving the line with a traditional clutch setup successfully requires determining what the right RPM should be. Leave the line at 2500 RPM, stand it straight up. In the case of my Deuce 3700 RPM would lift the front end 3" to 6" and turn the back wheel 1 to 1.5 turns when leaving the line. You can observe your bike at the line or have someone film you to see the launch and make changes. I also shifted when my rpm was 200 over my peak torque number. I had been laying a line in 2nd and 3rd because I shifted at to high an RPM. I discovered the same thing as you Ray, unless you ante up you wont be competitive.
Gordon . I know what your saying
but
where would you shift at if you were gonna shift 200 rpms after peak tq on my bike?
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/E%2085/dynosheets310.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/E%2085/dynosheets310.jpg.html)
Nice curve! I didnt have that luxury with my 95"B. Are you laying lines shifting?
I always shifted after peak HP
Quote from: wfolarry on July 30, 2014, 06:24:02 AM
I always shifted after peak HP
that's what I do also.
Gordon
sometimes it lifts the front end and slips the tire just slightly in 2nd .really nice
sometimes it just spins the tire going into 2nd . 3 rd - 5th are fine.(off the bottle )
its getting off the line ,and over into the groove, then into 2 nd gear that hurts me. if the track it good and the groove is sticky it does ok .
little 140 shinko tire
Knowing the issue with the contact patch of rear wheel or the sensitivity of it being on or off, you know your problem. Do you burn out or go around the water box? How much air pressure do you run? Also shifting after peak would make me believe your loosing momentum preparing for the next gear? I would make notes with changes as if you were performing on your dyno.
Quote from: wfolarry on July 30, 2014, 06:24:02 AM
I always shifted after peak HP
Me too.
Torque gets you off the line, horsepower gets you done the track. The higher average hp between shifts will equal a quicker and faster time.
You want to shift over your peak hp so you don't drop the rpm into a low hp spot.
Quote from: Merc63 on July 30, 2014, 07:25:39 AM
Quote from: wfolarry on July 30, 2014, 06:24:02 AM
I always shifted after peak HP
Me too.
Torque gets you off the line, horsepower gets you done the track. The higher average hp between shifts will equal a quicker and faster time.
You want to shift over your peak hp so you don't drop the rpm into a low hp spot.
Imagine when you shift your isolating that event as if your leaving the line in a way. The rate of acceleration between each shift event should be the focus. IMO
Quote from: gordonr on July 30, 2014, 07:22:38 AM
Knowing the issue with the contact patch of rear wheel or the sensitivity of it being on or off, you know your problem. Do you burn out or go around the water box? How much air pressure do you run? Also shifting after peak would make me believe your loosing momentum preparing for the next gear? I would make notes with changes as if you were performing on your dyno.
I do a burn out . 9-13 lbs air pressure seems to be the best .
I am considering adding struts and a bar for some testing. I am at a stand still on 60 ft times ,with my current configuration
.0213 reaction
1.6603 60
4.7603 330
7.3083 1/8
98.19 MPH
Best I can get my 60 foot times. I am running shinko tire at 11.5 PSI . I tried struts and that did not work well but I did not try several lengths either. Right now it has custom valved shocks the bodys are progressive with a remote added and built by a local shop that builds drag shocks. I see guys with some very short struts but dyna never on a bagger that I have seen here. This was test and tune night.
Using a AIM lockup unit + 1 carbonite pack and leaving at 4000 RPM with some pack slip and best we can tell 2 turns on the tire. I am happy with this set up and I can ride it anywhere. I ride it to the track and home. Not the fastest that is for sure , and nothing local for racing as far as class's here.
I got a call from Jeff @ Bandit today. He said that John and himself talked it over and figured out how they could make me a 2 stage 6 finger MTC set up to work with their Sportsman clutch. Jeff said it would take about two additional hours machine time on their end to make it and the cost for the clutch and MTC would be $1480.00. :banghead:
Jeff said I would definately need to run the Evo Ind. clutch basket to hold this set up. So I'm looking at a little over 2K for this clutch set up.
He also said I would have to make a custom outer primary cover to work with this deal. It would need to have the derby hole more centered on the clutch pack for adjustment acessability and it would also have to be at least 1 1/2" wider for the added room needed for the six finger MTC.
Jeff said this will be the 1st time that Bandit has made a set up like this for the 07-up bagger crowd...and it should work very well once it's dialed in and be a killer 2 stage set up for the bike.
Ray
http://www.barnettclutches.com/scorpion-primary-cover-7198.html (http://www.barnettclutches.com/scorpion-primary-cover-7198.html)
Quote from: No Cents on July 30, 2014, 12:26:35 PM
the cost for the clutch and MTC would be $1480.00. :banghead:
I'm looking at a little over 2K for this clutch set up.
it's all part of the Game Ray, lucky your not looking at clutch set ups for a sports bike, a Hays set up with all the bits and shipping is $4k+ for me
can you strap the front down like we do on the sports bikes
give that rear suspension some real thought also
sounds like an interesting 18 mths for you.
cheers
Max
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 30, 2014, 12:37:30 PM
http://www.barnettclutches.com/scorpion-primary-cover-7198.html (http://www.barnettclutches.com/scorpion-primary-cover-7198.html)
:up:
thanks Jason...I almost bought a used primary cover off E-Bay today for $25.00. I was going to cut it up and fab something up that would give me the clearance I'd need...while centering the derby cover hole where it needs to be.
I'll give them a call and see how far their cover extends outwards over the stock factory cover. I like that they actually centered the derby hole over the clutch. This might save me the headache of fabbing a stock cover.
Ray
Sounds like a good chunk of change for a couple 10ths at the track, are you getting into drag racing?
Quote from: No Cents on July 30, 2014, 12:26:35 PM
I got a call from Jeff @ Bandit today. He said that John and himself talked it over and figured out how they could make me a 2 stage 6 finger MTC set up to work with their Sportsman clutch. Jeff said it would take about two additional hours machine time on their end to make it and the cost for the clutch and MTC would be $1480.00. :banghead:
Jeff said I would definately need to run the Evo Ind. clutch basket to hold this set up. So I'm looking at a little over 2K for this clutch set up.
He also said I would have to make a custom outer primary cover to work with this deal. It would need to have the derby hole more centered on the clutch pack for adjustment acessability and it would also have to be at least 1 1/2" wider for the added room needed for the six finger MTC.
Jeff said this will be the 1st time that Bandit has made a set up like this for the 07-up bagger crowd...and it should work very well once it's dialed in and be a killer 2 stage set up for the bike.
Ray
That sounds interesting. Maybe if they get a couple of more orders the price could be different...
I have a wideglide 2010 with a 124" HSU with a procharger. Makes 212 HP and 185TQ. Also have the Rivera pro clutch with TPP, EVO 49tooth basket and Baker trap door. Haven't seen any slipping on the dyno....
Have done some high 6 seconds on the track...my main worries now is the spoke wheel and tranny.
Just bought a used Pingel elecric shifter that I will try out..will connect it to shift light for automatic shift of gear at 6400 rpm.
Probably will destroy the tranny :crook:
QuoteJust bought a used Pingel elecric shifter that I will try out..will connect it to shift light for automatic shift of gear at 6400 rpm.
Probably will destroy the tranny :crook:
with a street tire ,there is a good chance you will.
one time of breaking the tire loose and hitting the 6400 rpm set point. it isn't pretty.
be careful if you don't lock 1 st and 2 nd gear out from being auto shift
thanks for the leg work ray . thats cheaper than a 4000.00 belt drive setup :up:
FROM READING THIS THREAD THE HOT TICKET SOUNDS LIKE A ROAD KING WITH RAKED TRIPLE TREES, AND A 103 MOTOR ON NOS. WHY ROAD KING? IT'S THE LIGHTEST DRESSER. WHY RAKED TREES? YOU CAN'T RAKE THE FRAME AND MOVING THE FRONT TIRE FORWARD HELPS THE BIKE PLANT THE CHASSIS AND "LOWER" WHEELIES. WHY 103 ON NOS? A 180 TIRE, LARGEST ALLOWED BY THE RULES, CAN ONLY "HOLD" SO MUCH HORSEPOWER AT A STANDING START. BY USING NOS YOU ALLOW THE CHASSIS TO BUILD SPEED AND THE TIRE TO GAIN TRACTION BEFORE APPLING BIG POWER. JUST A THOUGHT.
Quote from: dirty jim on July 31, 2014, 05:00:57 AM
FROM READING THIS THREAD THE HOT TICKET SOUNDS LIKE A ROAD KING WITH RAKED TRIPLE TREES, AND A 103 MOTOR ON NOS. WHY ROAD KING? IT'S THE LIGHTEST DRESSER. WHY RAKED TREES? YOU CAN'T RAKE THE FRAME AND MOVING THE FRONT TIRE FORWARD HELPS THE BIKE PLANT THE CHASSIS AND "LOWER" WHEELIES. WHY 103 ON NOS? A 180 TIRE, LARGEST ALLOWED BY THE RULES, CAN ONLY "HOLD" SO MUCH HORSEPOWER AT A STANDING START. BY USING NOS YOU ALLOW THE CHASSIS TO BUILD SPEED AND THE TIRE TO GAIN TRACTION BEFORE APPLING BIG POWER. JUST A THOUGHT.
:up:
Shzzzzzz
Not so loud .. :teeth:
Ray, pick your shoe of choice, I wear tennis shoes most of the time is why I suggested them.
Reason for the shoes? Once you begin racing, it will consume every spare dime you have and make buying shoes second to eating... :hyst:
My care package from Primo arrived today and was sitting at my back door when I got home. It included their new gold spring and new steels and frictions.
I put everything in and adjusted the gold spring to .018. I had to add .060 shims under the four bolts that bolt the TPP down. I tried it with no shims and it was flat as a pancake...so I added shims a few different times until I finally get the .018 bow I needed. So apparently Primo did change something.
After adjusting the clutch and buttoning it up and putting a quart of B&M Trick shift in it...I took it for a little ride to get some gas in it.
WOW!!! ...what a difference. This bike has never had the clutch feel that it has now...with no slippage that I can feel at all. I can roll on in third gear from 2200 rpm's and it instantly plants you back in the seat and the front end gets very light.
I was all smiles when I parked it. :bike:
What track are you going to next to try it out?
Edgewater Dragway next week.
I'm on vacation again and I've got to see what this thing will do now.
The new clutch pack has made a HUGE difference in it.
It's no 11.85 bike anymore :wink:
Ray
Kick ass Ray ! :chop:
Good luck Ray, keep us posted :up:
Beating the clock will now get your checkbook 8up if you let it. Enjoy it Ray and be safe. Looking forward to the results of the new clutch. Times will tell. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2014, 05:29:02 PM
WOW!!! ...what a difference. This bike has never had the clutch feel that it has now...
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/null-11.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/null-11.jpg.html)
Ray goin down the road to get some gas ??
yep...that's been an all too familiar looking picture that I've done myself more than I care to again with this 124 in the old Duracell. :hyst:
I need to be able to keep mine down on the ground a lot better in 1st and 2nd gears so I don't end up looking like him again.
I'll just have to keep practicing to see what it wants now.
This new spring and clutch has made the bike a whole different animal.
I really like how it felt this evening when I took it for a little spin. It's never felt this good.
I think I'm definitely making progress in the right direction...but if the bike ever becomes a full time race bike...it will need the 2 stage six finger MTC set up in it.
For now the plan is to just keep getting more seat time practicing with it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2014, 05:54:29 PM
It's no 11.85 bike anymore :wink:
Ray
11.4/5....... :wink:
:pop:
:up:
Would a dyna FLD (Switchback) qualify? Hard bags, FL front end, floorboards, etc. Be a sneaky way to run that class.
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 01, 2014, 08:17:02 PM
Would a dyna FLD (Switchback) qualify? Hard bags, FL front end, floorboards, etc. Be a sneaky way to run that class.
:idea: :up:
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 01, 2014, 08:17:02 PM
Would a dyna FLD (Switchback) qualify? Hard bags, FL front end, floorboards, etc. Be a sneaky way to run that class.
No it has been ruled on . No switchback in dresser class .
Ray what were the rest of the times on your 11.85 run, did you post the slip and I missed it?
here you go Eric.
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Looking at the incremental times compared to Jim's run #54 I do not think your clutch was ever hooked up. It may have been from 1/8 to 1000' but even then I doubt it.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 02, 2014, 05:01:49 AM
Looking at the incremental times compared to Jim's run #54 I do not think your clutch was ever hooked up. It may have been from 1/8 to 1000' but even then I doubt it.
:up:
:agree:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/timesheets004.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/timesheets004.jpg.html)
:agree:
The clutch was poo-poo for sure Eric. I think it slipped the whole time last weekend myself. I was disappointed with how the bike ran to tell you the truth. I knew in my heart it wasn't right after Jim's 1st pass.
The good news is it's locking up now with the new care package Primo sent me!
I can't even begin to describe the difference I'm feeling in the bike now.
Ray
Ray, I have a Pro cycle shift light, you would need the rpm appropriate pill for this unit though as the one I have is a 5000 rpm.. PM me your address and I'll send it to you if youre interested. See ya, Scooter
wow that other bagger is laying 60 foot time like some of the rider on 1k and busa's
It was suppose to rain this morning so I decided to pull my Gaterman 1023's out for inspection and put in a fresh set of Comp Cams 850-1's.
My gaterman's had a little over 7000 miles on them and they looked great.
I'll pull them apart and give them a good cleaning and re-assemble them in the engine when I bump the compression this fall.
buttoning it back up.
[attach=0]
1023 lifters
[attach=1]
Ray
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They look great, give us a pic when you get them apart and clean.
On a side note, I see you have mastered the drag racing ET math.
11.85-1.46=$20,000.00 :hyst:
yep Eric...I see the math and I don't like it.
It took me awhile to count that high on my toes and fingers. The bad part was I lost count a few times and had to start all over again :hyst:
Maybe I should just go backwards and make a de-tuned lower compression motor and just :scoot: :unsure:
Ray
Eric...here is a drop in the bucket so far.
These are my .750 lift PAC springs I got the other day.
Ray
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It is to bad all the great looking parts have to get hidden inside where you don't get to look at them.
Glad to see your making progress.
Quote from: No Cents on August 02, 2014, 04:10:42 PM
It was suppose to rain this morning so I decided to pull my Gaterman 1023's out for inspection and put in a fresh set of Comp Cams 850-1's.
My gaterman's had a little over 7000 miles on them and they looked great.
I'll pull them apart and give them a good cleaning and re-assemble them in the engine when I bump the compression this fall.
buttoning it back up.
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1023 lifters
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Ray
What pipes ya running there and how do they perform? look great
Quote from: No Cents on August 02, 2014, 05:55:59 PM
Eric...here is a drop in the bucket so far.
These are my .750 lift PAC springs I got the other day.
Ray
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Hey Ray are those "extreme duals"?
no Gordon...they are their RPM Series dual springs.
PAC 1208X's.
Ray
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Quote from: chriso on August 03, 2014, 02:05:00 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 02, 2014, 04:10:42 PM
It was suppose to rain this morning so I decided to pull my Gaterman 1023's out for inspection and put in a fresh set of Comp Cams 850-1's.
My gaterman's had a little over 7000 miles on them and they looked great.
I'll pull them apart and give them a good cleaning and re-assemble them in the engine when I bump the compression this fall.
buttoning it back up.
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1023 lifters
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Ray
What pipes ya running there and how do they perform? look great
It's a Burns Stainless pipe that I made.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 03, 2014, 06:00:41 AM
no Gordon...they are their RPM Series dual springs.
PAC 1208X's.
Ray
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Nice!
here you go Gordon.
The spring chart for the RPM series springs I posted before was too small and I couldn't even read it.
So I made it a little larger.
Ray
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I was hungry...supper time.
Ray
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Thanks Ray. I'm running their product and I've had some trouble working with another pn# @.750 But your install height looks fine. Their stuff really helps in reducing spring surge.
Quote from: No Cents on August 03, 2014, 01:20:24 PM
I was hungry...supper time.
Ray
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Damn, those smell good. :up:
I got my George's Garage trap door today.
A very nice looking quality piece.
Ray
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That's a nice looking piece!
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 07, 2013, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2013, 10:36:26 AM
I've gathered all the parts...got the heads and bottom end out to shops for loving on.
So here is the plan:
Newest version 4 5/8" S&S flywheels put in a set of SE Pro crankcases, bored out to 4.125 bore, with a Timkens conversion, S&S piston jets, with Torrington cam bearings...being done by Kirby @ Vee-Twin Racing. The pistons will be S&S (Wiseco) -1.6 flat tops...with compression set @ 11.32:1 with them. I've been thinking about a set of domed CP pistons and running a little higher compression...but I'm going to try these flat tops first.
I'm going to try the 58* intake closing Cyclerama .650 lift gear drive cams first...hopefully they will perform as well as Wes Brown @ Cyclerama said they would. Wes said he designed these cams specifically for a 124" motor so they will produce early torque and let it carry that torque thru the whole rpm band, while building high horsepower along with it. He said he has not put them in a 124" motor yet with 11.00:1 compression, along with proper headwork...that has not make 150/150. Oh...by the way...wfolarry is doing another set of 110" heads for me again...this time with a little different twist!
I'll be also using the following parts:
SE camplate
Dan Thayer 3 stage oil pump
newest version Gaterman 1023 lifters
Smith Brothers custom made adjustable pushrods
SE forged rocker arm support...drilled out oil returns to .125
HD metal breather valves
S&S 1.625 roller rockers and shafts
S&S gears for the cams
S&S 66mm T/Hog with 6.2 HPI injectors that will pull air thru an Exotx extended Superfilter
Boarzilla headpipe with a 5" Supertrapp muffler with an open end cap and 20 disc's for a start...we will see how that does
All the internal bolts through out the motor are all ARP hardware
I'll have Strokerjlk (Jim Kennedy) tune it for me
That's the plan so far
Sounds really good Ray. I may need to buy that 117 from you.... I have a knock going on.
after all that.... did I read the 117 needs a home??? RowdyRody
Ray, flip it over and take a picture and post it. I wanna see the other side.
Quote from: jam65 on August 04, 2014, 06:09:46 PM
Ray, flip it over and take a picture and post it. I wanna see the other side.
:agree: Jam did you rebuild your 6 speed not to long ago?
Yes I did. I had my dogs back cut and all of the bearing replaced along with the Baker door and throw out bearing.
Quote from: jam65 on August 04, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
Yes I did. I had my dogs back cut and all of the bearing replaced along with the Baker door and throw out bearing.
if you had to go over with rebuild your trans would do same thing or go different route?
here you go Jay...the backside of George's trap door.
Ray
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rowdy...the 117"er is long gone.
Brian (Ohio HD) bought it from me.
Ray
Quote from: WideWildGlide on August 04, 2014, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: jam65 on August 04, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
Yes I did. I had my dogs back cut and all of the bearing replaced along with the Baker door and throw out bearing.
if you had to go over with rebuild your trans would do same thing or go different route?
I'm not sure what you are asking and you can PM me with your questions as not to sidetrack Rays thread.
Thanks Ray, looks good. It's nice to call that company and the owner picks up the phone to answer a persons questions.
:agree:
yes it is Jay.
George was very friendly and he answered all the questions I asked him.
It's customer service like that...that makes a person want to be a return buyer.
I will give George more of my business in the future. I like a lot of his specialty tools he has.
Ray
I have no affiliation with Georges products and am only stating my dealings with this company FWIW.
I can cross another part off my ever growing grocery list.
Scott (Scooter_trash_1) is sending me a shift light to mount on the old Duracell.
Thank you Scott...I appreciate it!
Ray
No problem Ray.. I wasnt using it and you needed it.. ding ding.. Scooter
:pop:
You know Ray sometimes that is the best way to look at it,As Ray Charles sang a song night time is the right To do some THINKING,Try it I don't know who is worse you or me..... :hyst:
Doobie doobie doo, doo doo doo de da.... strangers in the night...... :hyst:
It's been 2 days now and Ray hasn't broken anything or upgraded anything.
Slacker.
I took Durwood's advice...I've been buying gym shoes. :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: Hossamania on August 08, 2014, 06:58:12 AM
It's been 2 days now and Ray hasn't broken anything or upgraded anything.
Slacker.
day three with no changes...I couldn't take it anymore Hoss. :hyst:
I bought one of these FLO oil filters today. I'm tired of paying $15.00 for a K&N filter every time I change the oil.
Ray
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Looks good Ray I think you twisted my arm long enough..... :slap:I'm going to check it out too
Guys, I have one of those and I use it once in a while. ( if I forget to by a normal filter )
Note: clean it every 1000 miles and you'll do ok.
Not much filter area in it so frequency cleaning is the rule.
Looks nice though.
maybe you shouldn't forget to use it...as you would say: :rtfb:
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Quote from: No Cents on August 08, 2014, 10:14:22 AM
I took Durwood's advice...I've been buying gym shoes. :hyst:
Ray
:up: Funny thing, my racecar always got a fresh set of combat boots when needed... :hyst:
Ray
pretty sure this was the 11.85 pass
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg.html)
way too much air time :doh:
you do look like you were having fun though!
thanks for sharing. :up:
Ray
Awesome pic !
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 10, 2014, 12:05:51 PM
Ray
pretty sure this was the 11.85 pass
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg.html)
Madman for sure, great pic Jim :up:
that would be a nice picture to get blown up and framed and hang it in my barn over my work bench.
It would give me inspiration. :wink:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 10, 2014, 01:44:40 PM
that would be a nice picture to get blown up and framed and hang it in my barn over my work bench.
It would give me inspiration. :wink:
Ray
if you go on his website to look or order. like his you tube page.....so he can do live streaming from the races.
that is gonna be way cool
Quote from: No Cents on August 09, 2014, 07:07:09 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 08, 2014, 06:58:12 AM
It's been 2 days now and Ray hasn't broken anything or upgraded anything.
Slacker.
day three with no changes...I couldn't take it anymore Hoss. :hyst:
I bought one of these FLO oil filters today. I'm tired of paying $15.00 for a K&N filter every time I change the oil.
Ray
I run these,nice filters
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I like it,And Jim makes it look easy,But We all Know better...... :agree:
Ray, now you just have to "Let the cat out of the bagger".
:embarrassed:
There are a few very sharp guys in this thread.
Pay attention to "nominal" VS "absolute"
Very relevant when it comes to a full flow cleanable filter
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 10, 2014, 04:19:19 PM
There are a few very sharp guys in this thread.
Pay attention to "nominal" VS "absolute"
Very relevant when it comes to a full flow cleanable filter
can you put what your saying into words that an old country boy can understand Don?
Ray
B is next to V on the keyboard :oops:
Quote from: groundhog135 on August 10, 2014, 05:46:41 PM
B is next to V on the keyboard :oops:
:wtf:
now your talking in the same tongue as Don :doh:
I'm lost...as usual. :smiled:
I found this about the FLO oil filters Don...is this what your talking about when you mention "nominal" VS "absolute" ?
Ray
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Hd engines? Hi RPM?
Like I said, if you use it, clean it every 1000 miles.
Correct me if I'm wrong but actual/nominal ratings are more relivent with paper media filters. With synthetic media the actual/nominal rating numbers are very close. I've been switching a lot of our equipment over to Donaldson synthetic oil filters for this reason. Am I incorrect?
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/engine-oils-lubrication/198823-harley-super-5-oil-filter-specs-2.html (http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/engine-oils-lubrication/198823-harley-super-5-oil-filter-specs-2.html)
read this and then decide
Is 35 micron "Absolute" a high quality filtration number?
The critical components in the HD big twin that can plug or become compromised with material roaming around are the piston oiler jets and lifters.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 10, 2014, 12:05:51 PM
Ray
pretty sure this was the 11.85 pass
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/LDR_4879duracelrace.jpg.html)
It needs the disclaimer "Professional Driver on a closed course Do Not Try This At Home"
:wink:
but Eric...I've been trying it at home for some time now :hyst:
I'm glad there was finally a picture taken of what I've been telling you guys about all along.
It's a wheelie machine...of course that's not good for the drag strip...but it sure is fun to play with on the street...if your wanting to show off a little bit. :doh:
Ray
I got my FLO oil filter today and I installed it.
It's a nice looking product. I'll see how it does.
Ray
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Her you go Ray.. this outta do it for ya.. http://www.racingjunk.com/Drag-Bikes/182242096/F-S-Entire-Dano-Wert-Racing-Operation-.html (http://www.racingjunk.com/Drag-Bikes/182242096/F-S-Entire-Dano-Wert-Racing-Operation-.html) Scooter
Ray, my guess is he's barefooted and hungry, make him an offer :smilep:
Nice little catch can Ray.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
I got my FLO oil filter today and I installed it.
It's a nice looking product. I'll see how it does.
Ray
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Quote from: Durwood on August 13, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
Ray, my guess is he's barefooted and hungry, make him an offer :smilep:
Dano has been pretty successful during his career .
He announced his retirement earlier this year .
He probably sells enought PAC springs to buy a pair of sneakers , every other year . :hyst:
QuoteNice little catch can Ray.
what is the orange / amber bit off the top
(http://i.imgur.com/Joub6a1.png)
I think thats the reflector on the frame...uhmmmm.. And thanks for the catch can tip Ray.. Scott
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your welcome Scott...but Jim (strokerjlk) turned me on to it.
FSG...it's just the side reflector casting it's image on the chrome Mini Jaz filter top.
...and no I'm not interested in buying Dano's bike. That would take half the fun out of what I'm doing.
The dresser class will be my limit.
Ray
Though you might be intersted Ray
Got a e mail from rapator today
New product .
http://www.raptorperformance.com/products/raptor-sport-bike-power-interrupt-quick-kill?utm_source=raptor_performance_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=raptor_quickkill_53eb849ad6c340ed4ab21a53 (http://www.raptorperformance.com/products/raptor-sport-bike-power-interrupt-quick-kill?utm_source=raptor_performance_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=raptor_quickkill_53eb849ad6c340ed4ab21a53)
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 13, 2014, 04:31:00 PM
Though you might be intersted Ray
Got a e mail from rapator today
New product .
http://www.raptorperformance.com/products/raptor-sport-bike-power-interrupt-quick-kill?utm_source=raptor_performance_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=raptor_quickkill_53eb849ad6c340ed4ab21a53 (http://www.raptorperformance.com/products/raptor-sport-bike-power-interrupt-quick-kill?utm_source=raptor_performance_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=raptor_quickkill_53eb849ad6c340ed4ab21a53)
Says that it only offers options for 4 or 8 injectors ... does that make a difference? Is it better to stop the injectors over the ignition system like the Pingle system does?
Thanks Jim..great product! Scott
I've spent my limit this month on parts.
Parts I can cross off my list so far this month are:
The new Dan Thayer cam plate, a set of .750 lift PAC valve springs, George's Garage trap door, a Flo oil filter, and the ultra sonic cleaner, and two new pairs of Danner work boots to get me thru until retirement, and a pair of gym shoes to make Durwood happy. :hyst:
This put a little dent in my parts list...but I have a long ways to go still. :wink:
Don't tell the wifeepooh I sat my boots on her kitchen table...she would kick my ass. :kick:
Ray
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Quote from: No Cents on August 13, 2014, 06:30:16 PM
I've spent my limit this month on parts.
Parts I can cross off my list so far this month are:
The new Dan Thayer cam plate, a set of .750 lift PAC valve springs, George's Garage trap door, a Flo oil filter, and the ultra sonic cleaner, and two new pairs of Danner work boots to get me thru until retirement, and a pair of gym shoes to make Durwood happy. :hyst:
This put a little dent in my parts list...but I have a long ways to go still. :wink:
Don't tell the wifeepooh I sat my boots on her kitchen table...she would kick my ass. :kick:
Ray
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That's thinking ahead :up:
Scott...on the drain valve on the bottom of your Mini Jaz...I took a 4" long piece of clear 3/8" OD rubber tubing and slid it onto the drain...no clamp needed.
I slip an old empty clear plastic water bottle over the 3/8" tubing and open the valve and let it drain. It keeps everything nice and clean and lets you aim the muck into the bottle.
Ray
Nice "Potty mouth" kickers!! You like them over Hoffmans?
yes...way better!
the pair on the right are insulated for the winter months.
Ray
Nice boots! I just dropped my White's off at my boot guy today to send them off for a total re build. Nothing better than good boots.
Boots doing my job (IBEW 1347 electrical lineman) can make you or break you. It's tough hanging off a pole all day long with boots that break down and don't support your feet.
Over my almost 30 year career I've tried Red Wings, Hoffman's, Hall's, West Coast, and Danner's. All were fairly good boots...but none of them compared to the comfort of the Danner's for me. They are pricey...but worth every penny to me.
Ray
Size 15 and flat footed the Whites have been the best ive found for their arch support. Some day ill try Wesco's. A must for a heavy equipment mechanic.
you won't be flat footed for long...you'll be pushing down so hard on them foot pegs with that new 124 engine that you'll build your own arch :hyst:
Ray
I hope so. The transit bus isnt doing me any favors.
No Cents, sorry I called you a slacker. Didn't mean to fire you up to overcompensate!
That's a good looking list of stuff you've acquired. (Missing the new turbo - you know you want one!)
Hoss...no turbo needed...it's going to be all natur-ell :wink:
Your the only person in my life to call me a slacker...besides my wifeepooh. :hyst:
I can never do enough for her :doh:
Ray
I'm sure you do everything you can to keep her happy, and she really appreciates it!
As far as the slacker thing, I mean, come on, 3 days without breaking it? I had to call you out!
the old Duracell is hanging together pretty tough. I've been trying to break something because I have not been babying it.
I guess I'm just having a lucky run going on with it right now :embarrassed:
Ray
added later:
but that could all change tomorrow Hoss :doh:
Hoss...I did get to spin a few wrenches yesterday...not so much on my bike...but it had a wheel. :potstir:
I had to re-build my wheel barrel with new handles.
The wife used it one time yesterday and said she wore it out :hyst:
The damn thing was 15 years old and the handles were rotten...but I thought it was funny she said she wore it out working so hard. :hyst:
Ray
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here is a little video of this mornings cold start up of the old 124 with the FLO oil filter installed and the Comp 850-1 lifters.
Ray
http://youtu.be/eeby1JZCBcc (http://youtu.be/eeby1JZCBcc)
Sounds great Ray !
:up:
thanks Josh!
I had a request from a friend and a member on here that wanted to hear what the Comp 850-1 lifters sounded like on cold start up.
Ray
Sounds real good Ray,As for the wheel Barrow,looks like your going to mount a big tire on that puppy,Do you plan on a Rim change on it too,you would have the first one,let us know how it turns out..... :potstir: :hyst: :hyst:
Mike...didn't you notice the over sized tire and rim already on it?
I put that custom tire and rim on years ago.
It made it pick up 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2014, 05:54:29 PM
Edgewater Dragway next week.
I'm on vacation again and I've got to see what this thing will do now.
The new clutch pack has made a HUGE difference in it.
It's no 11.85 bike anymore :wink:
Ray
Is that tonight or tommorow night your racing ?
Where is that wiring diagram you had for the dyna two step ?
no racing this week for me...I'm baby sitting the grand kids this weekend :doh:
What wiring diagram you talking about?
Quote from: No Cents on August 15, 2014, 12:51:14 PM
no racing this week for me...I'm baby sitting the grand kids this weekend :doh:
What wiring diagram you talking about?
I though you posted a wiring diagram for the dyna two step ?
Can't find it now :scratch:
nope...it wasn't me.
Ray
Ray, looking forward to seeing you lay down some passes. When are you going to visit the strip and pilot that bike?
:pop:
There is an AMRA race up here next weekend! :potstir:
Quote from: jam65 on August 15, 2014, 07:08:18 PM
Ray, looking forward to seeing you lay down some passes. When are you going to visit the strip and pilot that bike?
I'd hoped to soon Jay but I'm in no hurry. Jim already showed us what the bike had in it right now. Even though the clutch was slipping it was basically around a 12.0 bike...give or take a little. That just made me want to make more changes to it and improve a little more on it's performance aspect.
I'm half tempted to put it up on the lift and do my compression bump very soon.
I'd like to put my new trap door on it and my Baker heavy duty throw out bearing in while I have it up there too.
What's holding me up from doing this is I still need to get an Evo Ind. clutch basket (which I don't have yet) if I'm going to tear it down that far...plus the heads will be going back to Larry for him to set them up for the .750 lift PAC springs.
I'm still in debate on which cam to use to ride in the new Dan Thayer cam plate.
I've narrowed it down to these three.
The new Zipper's prototype RS687...straight up with a 62* intake closing (which I was told by Zipper's head mechanical engineer the other day that they would be ready very soon). Zipper's will be posting a video of their test mule on Facebook next week with these new RS687 cams in it. They tested them in their Bonneville bike and their shop 110" RK set at 12.5:1 compression. They were very pleased with the testing results and said they made several dyno pulls to 7400 rpm's with them, and they were very stable and made impressive power.
The other two cams I have on the shelf that are in debate are the:
S&S 640...with 1.7 stilts on the intakes with a 60* intake closing
CR650...with 1.7 stilts on the intakes with a 58* intake closing
decisions, decisions, decisions :unsure:
Ray
I know some of you guys like the pictures I post...so here is my new Dan Thayer cam plate.
Ray
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OK what does the pressure relief valve look like or have you not taken it out for a look see yet?
I see you know me too well FSG :hyst:
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Ray
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So where does the oil dump to?
How do the dims of this valve & spring compare to the stock HD ones?
Is a stock roll pin used or it it a different size?
Is that valve solid or hollow?
(http://i.imgur.com/wP4GJDp.png)
I didn't have a stock relief valve to measure it against...so I didn't measure it.
I looked around for a stock cam plate...but I sold the last one I had. To the eye the roll pin looks to be the same size OD because I used the same punch I've always used on the roll pins in other plates to remove them.
The valve is hollow.
The oil looks to be getting dumped out of the relief valve channel itself back into the cam chest area instead of going to the suction side of the oil pump.
You can look into the hole Dan says not to plug on the bottom of the plate and actually see the valve up thru the hole.
Ray
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:up: I like the DT Logo , wonder if he'll do a plate for the early TC's?
Did Dan mention what his target relief pressure was set to dump at?
Ray, are you adding a spring or shim to the relief or just have it out for a look see?
I have a R&R cam plate. It too is designed to used with a DT pump and one feature I noticed about the R&R is that it has a small hole in the plate to direct oil onto gear drives.
no...I was just curious as to what the relief valve and spring looked like.
I've tried the Baisley 002 spring and the Axtell by pass spring before in the past. I told Dan I was using them with his 3 stage oil pump a few years ago...and he didn't like that idea at all. He said his oil pump wasn't designed to be ran with those aftermarket springs and valves and it would make the oil pressure too high.
I was seeing my oil pressure peg the gauge on cold start ups and Dan said that was not good and for me to take the aftermarket spring/valve back out of the cam plate and put the stock one back in. With the stock relief valve & spring back in my SE cam plate and with running his 3 stage oil pump I typically see 32- 34 #'s of oil pressure on cold start up....which Dan said is perfect...and between 8- 12 #'s of oil pressure at full operating temp. My cruising heat soaked engine oil pressure is 32- 34 #'s.
Dan didn't say what he has the relief pressure designed for in his new cam plate...but I'm going to run it as it came...along with his 3 stage oil pump.
Ray
added later:
this cam plate does not put aerated oil back into the suction side of the oil pump...thus eliminating most of the aerated oil in the oil system...which should equate to the lifters staying better pumped up with the elimination of air being introduced to them. Which should make for a quieter valve train.
Ray , where do you get your DT parts from ? I googled his name thinking he had a website but nothing came up .
google search: Thayer's Sales and Service
(585)762-4705 ask for Dan.
Ray
Thanks Ray !
I talked to Dave @ World Wide Bearings today about his Hybrid Ceramic wheel bearings.
The price for the Hybrid Ceramic Bearings for my 08 FLHX was $115.00 a piece for the ABS bearings, and the other two wheel bearings were $75.00 each.
The old Duracell will be getting a full compliment of these wheel bearings this winter to replace the six year old stock wheel bearings.
Ray
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:up: :up: :up:
Did you ask them about transmission bearings?
Quote from: Soft 02 on August 13, 2014, 07:56:17 PM
Size 15 and flat footed the Whites have been the best ive found for their arch support. Some day ill try Wesco's. A must for a heavy equipment mechanic.
I had a pair of Wesco highliners that I liked a lot. Very nice boots.
Quote from: No Cents on August 18, 2014, 05:13:55 PM
I talked to Dave @ World Wide Bearings today about his Hybrid Ceramic wheel bearings.
The price for the Hybrid Ceramic Bearings for my 08 FLHX was $115.00 a piece for the ABS bearings, and the other two wheel bearings were $75.00 each.
The old Duracell will be getting a full compliment of these wheel bearings this winter to replace the six year old stock wheel bearings.
Ray
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Before locking into WWB, have you looked into ceramic bearings from Micro Blue Racing? Allot of race teams swear by them. Mike Roberts ran these throughout his 124 Challenge bike and dominated the class. MBR will also finish primary drive gears and chains, final drive gears and chains, transmission components.
http://www.microblueracing.com/new-low-friction-bearings-products.html (http://www.microblueracing.com/new-low-friction-bearings-products.html)
Actually Ed I have tried to contact Micro Blue thru an e-mail about two weeks ago and I asked them what the costs would be for them coating my six speed tranny gear set for me, and if they had any ceramic wheel bearings for my ABS bike.
To date...I have not heard back from them :nix:
Ray
Hmmm. I know a guy over there. Will reach out.
Quote from: jam65 on August 18, 2014, 05:34:31 PM
Did you ask them about transmission bearings?
no I didn't Jay...but I will.
Ray
Ray- Get your bike dialed and I am still willing to bet its NOT a 12sec bike. Heres a 12sec pass with a more stock than not 2011 RK that just barely nudges the 115hp mark. Happy to say the least. :scoot:
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/aaron12b/PIR1.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/aaron12b/media/PIR1.jpg.html)
I'm working on it Marty :wink:
I still don't think this Primo clutch is holding it too well.
I just sold the 03 Lowrider today and I've got a little unexpected change in my pocket now...going jingle-lingle-ling.
I had the old Duracell out this morning and I tried a few practice launches on it...and it felt like it was blowing thru the lock up again.
I can feel it slipping in 2nd and 3rd gears when laying the throttle to it hard. :doh:
I'm definitely going to have to try to find a clutch set up that will work better than what I've got.
Ray
Guys here are running a complete Evo Industries kit (basket for strength, clutch kit for grip) Some have lock ups- some dont. Quite a few 150-180hp baggers in the shop here.
I don't know which way to turn. This clutch thing has got me baffled.
Evo Ind. told me they don't offer a lock up for their clutch. But I will probably end up getting their clutch basket...and then I'll have to figure out what's my best option for a clutch and a lock up system for it.
If I go with the Bandit clutch and a MTC lock up...I'm going to have to get a different primary cover. That's around a $2500.00 set up.
Barnett is telling me their new low profile lock up Scorpion clutch will easily handle 200 hp...and it will fit under the stock primary cover...and it has tuning ability. :nix: Do I take another chance and try the Barnett unit...or keep researching until I find something that is proven to hold what I've got.
The new Primo care package I got from them felt good for the 1st week or so...but it didn't cure my slipping problem when I hammer on it. It's fine for just cruising around town...but it can't handle the WOT stuff.
I'm not going to jump too quick and not explore all my options before deciding on what I need to handle my little 150 hp engine.
So far I'm not convinced on anything yet.
Ray
Hey Ray do you think it's blowing Thur with the HP,or the torque,I run a bandit on my 131 with no slip other than the rear wheel on the Dyno when Bob tuned it according to to the Chart,And that was right on the bottom because of the hit of the torque..... :scratch:
PS I sent you the wheel chart you will see how hard it hits
Mike I did experiment with it at different rpm roll ons in different gears to see when I can feel it slipping.
Just about anytime I try go from 2500 rpm's and grab a hand full of throttle in the first three gears...I can feel it slip. Once I'm over 4000 rpm's I think it's in full lock up...but I really don't know for sure if it's slipping or not. By the time I'm above 4K...I'm in the point straight and hang on mode.
Your guess is a good as mine if it's the torque or the horsepower...or both.
Ray
Did you run it on Jim's Dyno afterwards and have Jim do the wheel chart?And see what it is doing....
I put every thing bandit sent in for shims,with the strongest springs in mine and it does pull very hard to the point your fore arm will be sore..... :hyst:
No...Jim's is a 5 hour drive one way to his place for me.
Next time I make that trip...I'll be making it worth my while with a face lift on the Duracell. :wink:
Ray
Sounds like the old duracell 124 incher may become big bore 131 B2 head monster ,now that the low rider is history :potstir:
Hmmm, Ray, I know a good place you could store the 124 if you happen to go 131 :smiled:
come on you two...you both know darn good and well I'm in the process of de-tuning the 124 :wink:
I'm thinking on the lines of 585 cams and about 10.2:1 compression :unsure:
...or maybe not :potstir:
Ray
David Took his ET record back in the dresser class .
10.37 with a 2 nd gear wheelie , when she hooked . Poetry in motion . :beer:
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 24, 2014, 06:37:13 PM
David Took his ET record back in the dresser class .
10.37 with a 2 nd gear wheelie , when she hooked . Poetry in motion . :beer:
That was a good race...10.37 to a 10.45? I think.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 24, 2014, 06:37:13 PM
David Took his ET record back in the dresser class .
10.37 with a 2 nd gear wheelie , when she hooked . Poetry in motion . :beer:
them boys got those bikes and clutches dialed in :up:
It's amazing to watch them stage and come off the line and be able to put that power down to the ground...and I've got to figure out what I need to do it too. :doh:
Great job this past weekend Jim...congrats!
Ray
I'm sure you'll get it figured out!!
Quote from: No Cents on August 24, 2014, 06:26:11 PM
come on you two...you both know darn good and well I'm in the process of de-tuning the 124 :wink:
I'm thinking on the lines of 585 cams and about 10.2:1 compression :unsure:
...or maybe not :potstir:
Ray
Ray, I "detuned" my 124" with 662-2s to the 640's and the bottom end is soft IMO but i'll tell you what. After about 5-6K miles it is growing on me. I am starting to like the normal acceleration outta the hole but also like the hold on tight I still have 3500 and up. Still is just as fast but is more graceful getting there. The only thing I'm doing in the off season is bumping the compression up to 11.8-12:1 or so. These cams are growing on me. The 662-2's are a hoot load of fun but the fun beats the $hit outta you after a while.
I've got a set of 640's sitting on the shelf Jaycee and they are more than likely going in with the domed pistons set @ 11.86:1.
I rode the bike to work today and the noise coming from the primary is absolutely driving me nuts.
I can't take it anymore.
This is the result of one hours wrenching after I got home.
I wanted to look at my stator and rotor to see what they looked like after the other day when the bike only went to 11 volts and spit a low voltage code out at me. They look like the day I put them on.
It will going back together with an Evo Ind. clutch basket and the Barnett low profile lock up clutch.
I talked to Barnett again today and they told me Wink Eller is running this clutch in his drag bike and it made 314 hp...without any slipping...and they just had a supercharged bike that made over 280 hp with this clutch also...and no slipping on it either.
Ray
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Ron...this is for you. This is how it came out with running ATF...it looks very good!
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now for the piece of "Potty mouth" that's making all the noise :doh:
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It looks good on the inside of it...but the sprocket and ramp areas are junk.
I'll add this:
I always ran Amsoil Super Shift ATF with this latest SE comp with the Compensaver. I had my primary apart a little over a month ago and the sprocket and ramp showed very little wear. I was very pleased with what I seen.
When I had it apart I switched over to try B&M Trick Shift...and I have maybe put 1500- 2000 miles on it since the change over.
The sprocket and ramp deteriorated very quickly with the changing of a different fluid.
The Compensaver was getting plenty of fluid to the internals of the comp...but apparently the sprocket and ramp didn't like the B&M Trick Shift in my bike.
Ray
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one bright thing was the welded factory tensioner.
At least my chain was perfect with a 1/2" deflection when I pulled it apart while it was hot.
The deflection was set with a cold primary at 5/8" when the tensioner was marked and welded together.
Ray
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Dam that don't look good Ray,...... :dgust:
Looking at that Comp.
What version comp is that?
the one before they came out with the tray version.
QuoteI talked to Barnett again today and they told me Wink Eller is running this clutch in his drag bike and it made 314 hp...without any slipping...and they just had a supercharged bike that made over 280 hp with this clutch also...and no slipping on it either.
those are Bar bikes.... big diff in clutch setup.
its not about holding the power . its about managing the power.
better get lots of weights and fingers made up ,if you want to dial it in on a no bar bike.
if its gonna stay a street only or occasional track bike , no big deal :up:
comp has seen better days for sure .
Wonder how close Hoban is to releasing theirs.
Quote from: IRONMIKE113 on August 25, 2014, 03:57:24 PM
Dam that don't look good Ray,...... :dgust:
tell me about it Mike.
I thought the damn crank bolt had loosened up it was rattling so bad on the way home from work...but it wasn't.
I can't take this comp stuff anymore.
I'm going to call John @ Darkhorse tomorrow and plead with him and see what he's got...and if he can't help me I'm half tempted to go with a direct sprocket and eliminate the comp.
That's how aggravated I am right now...and that's an understatement!
I'm not buying another SE comp and wasting my money on them again. That is SE comp #3 that was in there.
I'm :angry: right now.
Ray
Let us know what John says!
Jim...I've been talking back and forth with Chance @ Barnett for about a week now about their new low profile lock up clutch.
This new low profile lock up is totally adjustable and he says it will produce the same results as the Bandit with the MTC lock up.
He said I will be shocked with the adjustability it has. I guess I'll be finding out.
Paul (pwmorris) pm'd me today and said he is probably going to run the new Barnett low profile lock up clutch also in his 126.
Paul said he is having the same trouble I am with his Primo clutch with their new gold spring too.
Ray
You would think someone could design one with the neoprene pads in it like they did on the snowmobile torque converter and with the oil they would last longer,you could have replacement pads like a serviceable item, maybe I'm just thinking too stupid..... :slap:
Quote from: No Cents on August 25, 2014, 04:44:30 PM
Jim...I've been talking back and forth with Chance @ Barnett for about a week now about their new low profile lock up clutch.
This new low profile lock up is totally adjustable and he says it will produce the same results as the Bandit with the MTC lock up.
He said I will be shocked with the adjustability it has. I guess I'll be finding out.
Paul (pwmorris) pm'd me today and said he is probably going to run the new Barnett low profile lock up clutch also in his 126.
Paul said he is having the same trouble I am with his Primo clutch with their new gold spring too.
Ray
duh ....imagine that.
good luck it will be a learning curve anyway you go. :beer:
Quote from: Soft 02 on August 25, 2014, 04:41:08 PM
Let us know what John says!
:up: will do!
I just e-mailed John...begging and pleading with him to let me run what he's got.
I e-mailed him a few weeks ago when I noticed the comp starting to talk to me.
John replied then and said they had just made another revision and they were getting closer.
I'm willing to be a test mule if he will let me.
If not...it's going to be a solid sprocket until John releases his answer to the SE comp.
Ray
Not feeling all warm and fuzzy about putting this SE comp on my 124 either. Havnt herd much about the BDL one on larger motors.
I might go with this if John doesn't have anything for me.
Ray
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Ray, did you add that 'extra' spring to the compensator?
yes...and it helped a bunch. It was the smaller outer spring.
With it...it had no more 1st gear hard clunk and no more noise on shut down.
Ray
I just wonder if the added pressure caused the sudden wear to the spokes? Maybe with primary lube, or motor oil, the added pressure is ok, maybe not with ATF. :idunno:
Hi Ray
I was wondering if I might ask is that a electrical bonding strap on the trans mission it's hard to see in the picture. If it is why. If not what is it.
Thanks Russ
Liked the vid of you going down the track!
I can't say one way or the other Brian if a primary lube would have been any better or not. It didn't play well with the B&M in it.
I was impressed with how quiet the primary was until a few weeks ago. Each time I rode it the noisier it got. It was weird because at idle sitting at a stop light it wouldn't make a peep. But once rolling along and get into sixth gear it was noisy as hell and rattling something fierce. It sounded like it had marbles rolling around in the primary.
Even when I couldn't take it anymore and I decided to pull it apart...it made no noise on it's final shut down on the last ride.
When dropping it into gear it was almost dead silent too. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: flhtruss on August 25, 2014, 08:06:34 PM
Hi Ray
I was wondering if I might ask is that a electrical bonding strap on the trans mission it's hard to see in the picture. If it is why. If not what is it.
Thanks Russ
Liked the vid of you going down the track!
Russ...I don't know exactly what your talking about...but no there is no grounding strap by the tranny.
That was actually Jim (strokerjlk) running my bike down the strip in the video's.
Ray
I destroyed an early SE comp with B&M Trick Shift in about 1000 miles.
Am still using the A model comp with a .078" machine washer in the spring stack. Oil is 32 oz of 10-40 MC oil and 6 ounce of synthetic tranny fluid like Amsoil or Schaeffer.
I previously had a .050" and .035" washer in the stack. I feel that .078 is as big as one should go. Then replace the comp. Getting a lot more life out it anyway.
I also am using a 2014 outer primary cover with the slightly different webbing to splash a bit more oil.
Your running 40 oz of oil in your primary?
so what are the down sides of running a sprocket instead of a comp?
I've read that some say you will feel more engine pulses...especially if you lug the engine...which I don't lug my engine. I've heard some say it's harder on the crank splines...which I can't find anything documented that proves that when I do a google search looking for that problem.
I'd like to hear from anyone that has actually done this and has eliminated their comp in the 07- up models that have the rubber mounted engines.
I'm running a S&S flywheel that is welded and the bottom end has a Timken conversion.
I found a 34 tooth sprocket from Vulcan Works that is made from 4140 tool steel that is hardened for $175.50.
I don't want this thing to be totally erratic...feeling excessive pulses and vibrations all the time...but I need to explore this option if I want to get away from spending more money on another SE comp...that I feel has been a poor design for the 07- up models from the on set.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 26, 2014, 04:52:28 AM
so what are the down sides of running a sprocket instead of a comp?
I've read that some say you will feel more engine pulses...especially if you lug the engine...which I don't lug my engine. I've heard some say it's harder on the crank splines...which I can't find anything documented that proves that when I do a google search looking for that problem.
I'd like to hear from anyone that has actually done this and has eliminated their comp in the 07- up models that have the rubber mounted engines.
I'm running a S&S flywheel that is welded and the bottom end has a Timken conversion.
I found a 34 tooth sprocket from Vulcan Works that is made from 4140 tool steel that is hardened for $175.50.
I don't want this thing to be totally erratic...feeling excessive pulses and vibrations all the time...but I need to explore this option if I want to get away from spending more money on another SE comp...that I feel has been a poor design for the 07- up models from the on set.
Ray
Don't think it's a good idea. All you will gain is it will spool up quicker and be quiet. From there on it's all down side. Vibration, spline damage on the crank, more shock to the gear box and so on. It will however tolerate B&M. :wink:
Ron
I'm running out of options here Ron.
I can't keep throwing money away on the SE comp and have to keep changing it out every other year. It seems to be a huge waste of money to me for something that doesn't last.
At this point...I don't know what to do. The bike is up on the lift and apparently it will be there for some time now. I might as well get the Evo Ind. clutch basket and a different clutch while I have it apart. I can also pull the tranny down and put my new trap door in too.
I had trouble sleeping last night trying to figure out what to do with this comp issue. I don't know if there is a correct answer in what to do.
Ray
I ran a sprocket for years but I had also installed an R1 rear wheel with a "cush drive" to absorb the pulses. I'm not sure how the newer trans reacts going into 1st gear without the compensator.
I don't know either Gordon...especially on my rubber mounted engine in this FLHX.
But you can see I'm running out of options trying to find something that will last.
Ray
Ray, at what RPM do u cruise? And if you want to gain speed do you ease on the throttle or just roll it on?
I would go to a solid sprocket. If you r "detuning" then I would guess you would like your engine a little more manageable a less of a beast all the time. If this is true you will hate that sprocket.
Have you tried a heavy weight oil in the primary ? Like a 75 90?
Ray,i have your fix just install my stock 103 and all your issues are gone :hyst:
lets just say I don't lug my engine and if I want to gain speed I give it throttle to make it move.
Cruising @ 70 mph on the interstate the engine is running 3K.
In town I'm usually around 2500- 3000 rpm's in the lower gears while moving along.
I just got off of the phone with Joe @ Vulcan Works. We talked for over a 1/2 hour about the SE comps and their poor design and about his re-placement sprocket.
He said he just did another run of 1000 sprockets and he got the 1st batch back from heat treat yesterday. He said he can not keep them on the shelf. He said he has a HD dealership in Florida that is buying them a dozen at a time to replace comps in bikes for customers that are done messing around with the MOCO's comp issues.
I'm going to order one today and give it a try...I guess. I don't know what else to do.
Ray
Use it when you race if nothing else. You get the clutch dialed in and everything will work fine.
I got a reply to my e-mail I sent John @ darkhorse yesterday.
He said within a week he will have something for me.
Ray
I am runing the evo sprocket on my 124". it is 'chunky' at cruise, but love it everywhere else... I have S&S wheels loved by darkhorse. Darkhorse said no issue with running a sprocket at the time. [attach=0]
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Quote from: No Cents on August 26, 2014, 08:29:49 AM
I got a reply to my e-mail I sent John @ darkhorse yesterday.
He said within a week he will have something for me.
Ray
What about the rest of us?????
Any word on the wide release??
I thought I had read somewhere that the solid sprocket is hard on the shaft splines.
Long term Clanking back and forth gotta start to Wear on the crank Unless Welded on... That would not be a good option. The rubber Cushion on the rear wheel Drive and the cushion on the crank are needed things for the highway IMHO...
Gotta be a better way than the Solid chain gear to crank...
Cumbersome, but would the Big Belt Drive work and give you some soft cushion needed ? Probably rob too much power?
signed....BUBBIE
Ray worse comes to worse you can try the newest comp. and see how that works out.Mine has been in for about 3000 now, with the compensaver and welded adjuster,will take it apart after the holiday and see how she looks.Have done a few burn outs and hard downshifts so I have not been easy on it.
I ran the Evolution sprocket for a time on my 107". I thought it was very smooth.
But mine is only a mouse motor compared to yours Ray.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 25, 2014, 09:26:40 PM
Your running 40 oz of oil in your primary?
No, bad math on my part. Fixed the 8 to a 6 now. Running 38 oz total.
I was going to order the Vulcan sprocket and eliminate the comp...but after getting the reply back from John @ Darkhorse I'm going to try to be patient and wait to see what he is going to do for me.
I'm trying to shop around and get a good price for an Evo Ind. basket and the clutch I'm going to try.
Looks like the bike is going to be sitting up on the lift for a few weeks now.
All's I know for sure is...I'm not buying another SE comp!
Ray
Put some formula + in it and ride it until you get all your parts .
Give you some more time to think about your choices .
3 weeks on the lift at the end of season , over a worn comp ? No way !
Just call it a test to see what formula + can do to heal a worn comp.
your probably right Jim.
I could put it back together and put some Formula+ in it until I get all my parts.
The damn thing was making so much noise that I couldn't stand it. I don't know if I even want to put it back together again with what I've got and it still make the noise.
I got my buddy Don @ Don's Custom and another local indy pricing me up the basket and clutch right now.
I'll wait a few days to see what I can come up with.
Ray
I will say the clutch pull with the red springs is a bear on the Evo set up. Just a heads up.....
Is there no warranty on the comp.
Russ
Quote from: flhtruss on August 26, 2014, 03:11:12 PM
Is there no warranty on the comp.
Russ
no...not in my case.
My bike is a 2008 model year...warranty is long gone.
On a new bike it will have a warranty.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 26, 2014, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: flhtruss on August 26, 2014, 03:11:12 PM
Is there no warranty on the comp.
Russ
no...not in my case.
My bike is a 2008 model year...warranty is long gone.
On a new bike it will have a warranty.
Ray
Jim is right, get the atf out of there and it will quieten it down.
Hey Ray I wouldnt rush to blame the Lube.. until recently, mine has been lubed with formula plus lube, and when I took it apart it had the same wear patterns that yours had on the spokes.. its noisy too..one year old. Scott
Quote from: Durwood on August 26, 2014, 03:47:15 PM
Quote from: No Cents on August 26, 2014, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: flhtruss on August 26, 2014, 03:11:12 PM
Is there no warranty on the comp.
Russ
no...not in my case.
My bike is a 2008 model year...warranty is long gone.
On a new bike it will have a warranty.
Ray
Jim is right, get the atf out of there and it will quieten it down.
Seen a hell of a lot worse looking comps running down the road .
At least worth a try to see if the noise is actually the comp
I might try it Jim...at this point I don't have nothing to lose.
I ordered my Evo Ind. clutch basket and the Barnett low profile lock up clutch today. They probably won't be here until next week.
I held off from buying the Vulcan Works sprocket to see if John @ Darkhorse is going to set me up with his comp...but I'm half tempted to go ahead and get the Vulcan sprocket to see how I like it.
Jim...I was all over the thing with a stethoscope before pulling it apart. The noise was definitely coming from the comp area.
The crank bolt was tight when I impacted it off....and the stack had no play in it. I don't know what else could of been making the noise.
The valve train and the engine case sounded like a well oiled sewing machine every where with the stethoscope.
No noise back by the clutch or the tensioner...but move it to the comp and you could hear what almost sounded like taking marbles and grinding them together in your hand. That's about the best way I know how to describe it.
Ray
Jim...here is some closer pictures of the sprocket groove wore into it and the ramp with how the hardened finished has worn off and it has blistered badly.
You might have seen worse before...but this one didn't look any thing like this a month ago.
It's went down hill quickly for what ever reason...and was making a terrible racket.
Would it help if I took the ramp and polished the valleys smooth on it and took the sprocket and made the arms smooth and polished?
My guess would be no because the hardening process on them is wore thru...but I figured I'd ask.
Ray
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flooding the things with oil aka the compensaver may work but it's always going to be a bandaid
HD need to increase the surface area of the spoke / ramp contact patches, get them parallel and get them making contact at the same time, anything else is a compromise that will result in point loading and subsequent wear will be the result
Quote from: FSG on August 26, 2014, 05:32:08 PM
flooding the things with oil aka the compensaver may work but it's always going to be a bandaid
HD need to increase the surface area of the spoke / ramp contact patches, get them parallel and get them making contact at the same time, anything else is a compromise that will result in point loading and subsequent wear will be the result
:agree: with you Gary.
Joe @ Vulcan Works told me today he has been debating on making a replacement comp for the 07- up models.
He said that it would be very time consuming for him to make one with the precision grinding that would have to be done with the sprocket and the ramp. Then once it's ground to precision it requires and better heat treating process than what is being done with the SE comps. He said if he made what he was thinking of...it would have to have a cost on it of around $450.00 with all the labor involved on his end...but he said it would cure all the comp issues everyone is having. The thing that is stopping him is...Joe didn't think a lot of people would want to spend that kind of money for a replacement comp. He said the MoCo is not going to spend that kind of time and money to make it a precision piece...like it's needed to be.
Ray
what I did on my 2014 comp. was I marked the spokes and ramps so they would always be installed the same way during install. Then I used Dykem on the ramps and turned the spokes along the ramps to find the high and low spots. Then I grinded the surface of the ramps so there was equal contact threw rotation. Far from precision ground but the original casting was so bad I thought any attempt at better contact between the spoke and ramp was worth a try. The composite washer also seems to be helping with the casting imperfections in my case.
QuoteJoe didn't think a lot of people would want to spend that kind of money for a replacement comp
I for sure would if it was going to fix the problem.
Quote from: No Cents on August 26, 2014, 05:16:29 PM
Jim...here is some closer pictures of the sprocket groove wore into it and the ramp with how the hardened finished has worn off and it has blistered badly.
You might have seen worse before...but this one didn't look any thing like this a month ago.
It's went down hill quickly for what ever reason...and was making a terrible racket.
Would it help if I took the ramp and polished the valleys smooth on it and took the sprocket and made the arms smooth and polished?
My guess would be no because the hardening process on them is wore thru...but I figured I'd ask.
Ray
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What have you got to lose ?
I would rather you just put F+ in and ride it until you usually say quits for the season .
I have seen the same thing smooth its self right back out running F+ .
Mine for one . It's something you would never believe unless you saw it for yourself .
Naturally it can't put material back . But it will smooth out and polish it back up .
If your really going to make this a serious track bike , use the solid sprocket . They take a little getting used to , but they are the way to go if your gonna dial a lockup clutch in and get Consistent 60 ft times .
Ray, I cannot recall, did you shim up the spring pack?
Bob...I had added one of the smaller springs to the stack. It seemed to work very well. No more hard clunks when initially dropping it into 1st gear when it was cold...and it had no noise at shut down.
Richard K was kind enough to offer me another sprocket and ramp from a comp he did some testing with that is still in good shape.
If Richard does send me those...I'll put it back together as it was and try the Formula + until the end of the season.
The ramp on mine is just so rough and blistered I wouldn't attempt using it again.
My primary drain plug was heaped with metal for the 1st time...when I drained the primary when I pulled it apart...and I mean heaped with metal.
The sprocket and ramp were apparently eating each other up.
Ray
When I installed the Bandit Sportsman behind the 124 I used the recommended Golden Spectro 80W Trans./Primary oil.
I have drained the primary twice since then and there has been no metal on the drain plug.
Maybe 4500 miles on the first gen. SE comp.
Another option Ray.
Quote from: mike jesse on August 27, 2014, 01:51:43 PM
When I installed the Bandit Sportsman behind the 124 I used the recommended Golden Spectro 80W Trans./Primary oil.
I have drained the primary twice since then and there has been no metal on the drain plug.
Maybe 4500 miles on the first gen. SE comp.
Another option Ray.
Thanks! Wanted to hear that as I have the same set up. What springs you running? Im starting of with all gray and no shims.
Gray spring with one or two shims, I don't remember now.
Light lever pull too.
Quote from: Soft 02 on August 27, 2014, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: mike jesse on August 27, 2014, 01:51:43 PM
When I installed the Bandit Sportsman behind the 124 I used the recommended Golden Spectro 80W Trans./Primary oil.
I have drained the primary twice since then and there has been no metal on the drain plug.
Maybe 4500 miles on the first gen. SE comp.
Another option Ray.
Thanks! Wanted to hear that as I have the same set up. What springs you running? Im starting of with all gray and no shims.
Quote from: mike jesse on August 27, 2014, 01:51:43 PM
When I installed the Bandit Sportsman behind the 124 I used the recommended Golden Spectro 80W Trans./Primary oil.
I have drained the primary twice since then and there has been no metal on the drain plug.
Maybe 4500 miles on the first gen. SE comp.
Another option Ray.
I've eyeballed that stuff myself. Due lack of availability here, didn't get a chance to get my paws on it but it did sound like a good oil and is GL rated. Mind you I tried Belray Gear Saver for two stroke transmissions an it took the comp out as fast as ATF did. Both looked identical to each other. Lesson learned here was just because it says transmission it doesn't mean it's good for a compensator. GL rating is the key. Finding a GL rated oil to be clutch friendly is the holy grail.
Ron
Ron
Ron, I get mine from the local Cycle Gear which is still a 80 mile round trip.
It's always in stock.
Good enough reason for me to take a ride.
Bel-Ray Gear Saver 75W #99240
Bought some from Amazon, free shipping. Planning to try it some time.
what i dont get is my 2010 Dyna comp is different then my dad's 2012 ultra that been replaced twice has 14k miles and my step-moms 2012 dyna sounds like crap at low rpms with new motor build, but my bike has 36k of drag/aggrisve street abuse 4 different motor sizes vary from 96-124ci, hp from stock-130 last dyno and ive ran also ran a small shot of nitrous on top of 130 hp still using same comp that was shipped with the bike in 2010, so why is my comp hold up better it dose have wear marks but nothing compared to Rays so what gives?
Ray, I love this thread! Just keeps giving and giving and giving! LOL :chop:
Quote from: WideWildGlide on August 28, 2014, 07:34:11 AM
what i dont get is my 2010 Dyna comp is different then my dad's 2012 ultra that been replaced twice has 14k miles and my step-moms 2012 dyna sounds like crap at low rpms with new motor build, but my bike has 36k of drag/aggrisve street abuse 4 different motor sizes vary from 96-124ci, hp from stock-130 last dyno and ive ran also ran a small shot of nitrous on top of 130 hp still using same comp that was shipped with the bike in 2010, so why is my comp hold up better it dose have wear marks but nothing compared to Rays so what gives?
That erra of stock 07 version comp did very little in the form of taming high load pulses. It went rigid. The light springs offered very little friction to wear it out but at the same time it did very little in taking shock loads out in anything over idle to light cruise. The mass of the clutch assy, chain and so on after the starter loaded the comp one via cam, caused the spring pack to bottom and comp go rigid when the engine started due to the lag (mass) in the baskets rotational delay keeping up to the revs of the engines crank at startup. During the rebound is what I'm trying to say. That bang sound on startup is what was common as a result. If that's all it took to go rigid, it had little hope of working in higher load conditions, which it don't.
Ron
From the 09 King stocker (comp) I went to the 08 "A" and yet to this day, I have it working just fine... I did face grooves into the spokes and face of the front boss where the Bearing or replacement washer runs on the newer ones... I have run it 35,500 and still doing it's job... (MTL) :oil:
Remember reading that LONG thread on Dry Rust.....................
Why I ask Why? All I ever read has Problems using the comps... Could I have been given a good one? :hyst:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on August 28, 2014, 09:47:37 AM
From the 09 King stocker (comp) I went to the 08 "A" and yet to this day, I have it working just fine... I did face grooves into the spokes and face of the front boss where the Bearing or replacement washer runs on the newer ones... I have run it 35,500 and still doing it's job... (MTL) :oil:
Remember reading that LONG thread on Dry Rust.....................
Why I ask Why? All I ever read has Problems using the comps... Could I have been given a good one? :hyst:
signed....BUBBIE
Pretty much the same here . I cut the grooves on the spokes as ron suggested . Way back when. At 500 miles it looked pretty bad with trick shift . Went to red line ATF for 400 more miles . Still looked horrible. Went to F+ and all has been good for 35,000 .
I been running trick shift again this year, since I needed every advantage I could get with clutch hook up . I figure I will go solid sprocket if its trashed when I go into it again .
If for nothing else , just to see if it will shift a un-welded SE 4 5/8 crank .
I just don't get it. How are some guys not having no luck at all with these comps? While others have there original still?
I'm by no means easy with how I ride. Still have original. I've used 20w50, 80w90, ATF, and now B&M trick.
Still sounds the same, no problems.
Knock on wood...
I stopped into this huge cycle dealership today because I know they have a large variety of lubricants. They sell Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Polaris there.
I was looking at the labels to find something for the primary and their top tech told me to run Spectro Golden Gear Lube 85w in the primary. Out of the blue this guy says it works great with your wet clutches and it will keep the comp you guys are having trouble with lubed so it will last. Needless to say my jaw dropped when he hit me with that out of the blue.
Then he tells me a story about his dad's 2008 Ultra. He said his comp was replaced under warranty in the 1st year. His dad replaced whatever fluid the HD dealership put in with the Spectro 85w. His dad just turned 100,000 miles on his bike this summer with the replacement comp still in there. He said all he runs is the Spectro 85W in the primary.
He said this is the crotch rocket guys best kept secret from you Harley guys. :hyst:
It comes in a one liter bottle. I bought two for when my primary goes back together.
Ray
[attach=0]
back side of the bottle
[attach=1]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Count me in Ray. -Tutt
I run the Spectro 6spd Platinum in my transmission.. I'll try the Gold next primary change.. I've been with B&M Trick Shift but I'll try something different.
I also use Golden Spectro 6 speed platinum in my gear box as does my friend with his DD7. It is Baker's recommended oil. So I would not be surprised to learn to use Golden Spectro's product in the primary as well, especially on my new build. -Tutt
I've got 62K+ on Spectro 6 speed platinum on my 2010. It gets a fresh quart every spring.
Quote from: No Cents on August 28, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
Spectro Golden Gear Lube
Ray
That's what John recommends for his Bandit clutches but not the full bottle. Has worked well in my 124 with his clutch and the new SE comp
I knew Bert suggests to run Spectro in his Baker trannies...but I never gave it much thought about using one of Spectro's products in the primary. I'm willing give this 85w a try and see how it does. I know it's a fine balance trying to get something to lube these comps and also have it work well with the clutch so it still hooks up like it should. I just never gave a gear lube any thought for being used in the primary...until yesterday. I always thought of gear lube as being too thick of a product for the clutches...hopefully this stuff will prove me wrong.
Ray
Yeah the SAE rating I think is different from motor oil to gear lubes. The Bel-Ray 75w I have on the shelf is something like 10w30 or 10w40 equivalent to motor oil. Our old dirt bikes when we were kids used this type of lube in the transmission and wet clutch.
:missed:
NOT Raining on the Spectro Parade:
Just Information about an OLD Product that does well in the Primary's
MTL by Redline= SAE 70w80 ... API GL-4 Gear Oil... Now having 35,500 on the SE 08 "A" comp in my 09 King...
I do like what is said about the Golden gear lube by spectro.
IT might just do Better Than my above example I use....... I'm ALL Ears on this product and knowingly Ray will be the Test Dummy :pop:
(Meant with the Utmost RESPECT Ray) :hyst:
signed....BUBBIE
http://www.spectro-oils.com/heavy-duty-primary-chaincase-oil/ (http://www.spectro-oils.com/heavy-duty-primary-chaincase-oil/)
I didn't know about this one either..
Formula+ is also a gear oil.
Ron
Is the S&S rebrand of Golden Spectro the the same gear oil?
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 29, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
Dressers don't always just run dresser class. you have to get your moneys worth.
paul is running SE 11:50 index class here
http://youtu.be/VFllf0pxNXQ (http://youtu.be/VFllf0pxNXQ)
Ray thought I aught to clear something up .
I made a statement somewhere in this thread ( this thread needs its own search button )
Anyway can't find it . But I said the fastest baggers are all running B 2 heads .
This bike of Paul's is a 117 er with stock 96 -103 style casting . :oops:
Fricking amazing !!!
I walked over Sunday morning @ Kil-Kare and took a better look at Paul's bike from a distance. The 1st thing I did notice was it didn't have B2 heads. I was trying to focus in on his primary side to see what kind of clutch set up and air shifter he was running. I got a few funny stares when I walked around closer in the next pit area and I tried to look at that side of his bike.
I wish I would of took some pictures of the bike anyways to study it a little more closer. There was a couple of guys standing around it at the time and they were in a pretty deep conversation about it...so I didn't want to intrude on them and look like an ass trying to take some pictures.
:agree:
this thread has gotten too long and some good info easily gets buried in it and difficult to find.
Ray
It's a Barnett primary cover , with Bandit / MTC 6 finger lock up .
Air shifter is MTC electric over air controlled . ( adjustable kill time ) Hand crafted cylinder mounting .
PS I got the guys number that does the custom primary's .have t called for a price yet .
Ray, how much of the Spectro is going in your primary? The whole bottle?
FWIW, I ran Spectro semi-synthetic motor oil in a Shovel & a couple Evo's, after going through the Badlands in 110-120 deg. ambient temps the oil still looked fresh. Good oil.
:hyst:
I see you have been looking hard at that bike and inquiring about it too. :up:
He has a sweet set up going on with it. As far as the heads go...I will be talking to Larry very soon. I want to see what he has to say about what is needed to be done in that department...if anything. I'll listen to see what he suggests.
I did buy the Evo Ind. clutch basket along with the Barnett Scorpion low profile lock up clutch set up. Barnett assured me that it is totally adjustable like the Bandit with the MTC lock up. I'll see if they were telling me the truth. They said it was designed to perform in the hi hp-tq applications for the drag strip. I've never ran a Barnett clutch before...so this will be treading new waters for me. Chance @ Barnett said once I get it dialed in...I will be elated with how well it performs. I actually sent him a video of Paul's bike making a pass to let him see how his clutch was working. After viewing it...Chance told me this clutch is going to give me the same results once I find the proper combo of springs that work to achieve what I want. He said a little testing will be involved...but shouldn't be too difficult to find the right combination I'm after. He did make a suggestion of which combination of springs to start with.
I haven't gotten either yet...it will probably be sometime next mid week. My Vulcan Works comp eliminating sprocket should be here today. I'm still on the fence with the sprocket. :nix:
It's day 5 being down...and it's killing me. I sold the Lowrider so I don't have a back up to ride now. :doh:
Ray
Quote from: Deye76 on August 30, 2014, 06:45:17 AM
Ray, how much of the Spectro is going in your primary? The whole bottle?
FWIW, I ran Spectro semi-synthetic motor oil in a Shovel & a couple Evo's, after going through the Badlands in 110-120 deg. ambient temps the oil still looked fresh. Good oil.
John...with the bike sitting straight up and down on the lift...I'm going to fill it to the bottom of the clutch basket.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 07:03:26 AM
:hyst:
I see you have been looking hard at that bike and inquiring about it too. :up:
He has a sweet set up going on with it. As far as the heads go...I will be talking to Larry very soon. I want to see what he has to say about what is needed to be done in that department...if anything. I'll listen to see what he suggests.
I did buy the Evo Ind. clutch basket along with the Barnett Scorpion low profile lock up clutch set up. Barnett assured me that it is totally adjustable like the Bandit with the MTC lock up. I'll see if they were telling me the truth. They said it was designed to perform in the hi hp-tq applications for the drag strip. I've never ran a Barnett clutch before...so this will be treading new waters for me. Chance @ Barnett said once I get it dialed in...I will be elated with how well it performs. I actually sent him a video of Paul's bike making a pass to let him see how his clutch was working. After viewing it...Chance told me this clutch is going to give me the same results once I find the proper combo of springs that work to achieve what I want. He said a little testing will be involved...but shouldn't be too difficult to find the right combination I'm after. He did make a suggestion of which combination of springs to start with.
I haven't gotten either yet...it will probably be sometime next mid week. My Vulcan Works comp eliminating sprocket should be here today. I'm still on the fence with the sprocket. :nix:
It's day 5 being down...and it's killing me. I sold the Lowrider so I don't have a back up to ride now. :doh:
Ray
I got a bike here now that was built by the crew chief of 3 , 8 sec bikes .
He is the one that told me a few weeks back about the guy that machines the primary covers .
When I told him what Barnett said about the adjustability of there clutch and it doing the same think as a adjustable 6 finger , he about fell on the ground laughing .
He says you can set it up for 2 stages , with a tool box full of fingers , weight and springs , but you will never have the ability of 3-6 stages of lock up .
You might do just fine with two stages, would be better with 3 IMO :beer:
yep...6 fingers on this Barnett lock up vs the 4 fingers on my Primo unit. As you know the Primo had no adjustability with coil springs.
All I can do now is see if it does what it's advertised to do.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
:missed: :missed: :missed:
When you are on this thread, Go to the top right Search and enter your ??????? IT will give you what is IN this thread... (giving 30 Post back ONLY on your search) :kick: :slap:
BY further trial and ERROR I EDIT'ed this Post...
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 07:50:45 AM
yep...6 fingers on this Barnett lock up vs the 4 fingers on my Primo unit. As you know the Primo had no adjustability with coil springs.
All I can do now is see if it does what it's advertised to do.
Ray
[attach=0]
You still don't get it on the set up . Its not about the number of fingers , its about the adjustability of the fingers . A good set of .090 - .105 feeler gauges and some springs is all you need .
Remember Rivera blowing smoke up your tail pipe about how their new setup would work ?
That one was free . And never made it to the track . This one will cost ya to find out .
If your afraid you can't ride it on the street with the MTC lockup , it's street-able as well.
This class will be in the. 9's soon . Think ahead if your really gonna try and compete .
I gotta ask Ray, what are your REAL goals with this bike? :scratch:
right now Mike my goal is to get it back together and running again.
I was out in the barn cleaning parts getting it ready. I just happened to notice the marks on my clutch rod. It's about 5" from the end. My guess is it was being caused by trap door flex. My inner primary has a small mark on it also.
Ray
clutch rod marks
[attach=0]
clutch rod mark measurement
[attach=1]
inner primary mark by the bolt
[attachimg=3]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 30, 2014, 10:06:21 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 07:50:45 AM
yep...6 fingers on this Barnett lock up vs the 4 fingers on my Primo unit. As you know the Primo had no adjustability with coil springs.
All I can do now is see if it does what it's advertised to do.
Ray
[attach=0]
You still don't get it on the set up . Its not about the number of fingers , its about the adjustability of the fingers . A good set of .090 - .105 feeler gauges and some springs is all you need .
Remember Rivera blowing smoke up your tail pipe about how their new setup would work ?
That one was free . And never made it to the track . This one will cost ya to find out .
If your afraid you can't ride it on the street with the MTC lockup , it's street-able as well.
This class will be in the. 9's soon . Think ahead if your really gonna try and compete .
Oh...I get it Jim...I'm just exploring another option we will say. This Barnett clutch is new and I don't know how good or bad it will be until I try it.
This one is suppose to be totally adjustable too. The only person I know of that is running this Barnett set up that I've heard of before is Wink Eller...and like I said...it held his 314 hp bike and didn't slip. That has to be way better than what I had as you well know...so I've got to be headed in the right direction with this clutch if it works as advertised to me. I've had a few pm's from some of the top name guys on this forum and they said this clutch is a smart move. :nix:
Now as far as me getting it dialed in...it will be a learning curve for me and I will play with it until I find what I'm looking for...if I can actually get out of it what I want. If I can't get it to do what I want...well let's just say it won't be the 1st time I tried a product and I didn't like it after I ran it.
Who knows...this might be the next greatest clutch money can buy and no one has tried it and given it a chance. :nix:
I do agree with you and I will have to be thinking outside of the box if I want to be competitive with these guys that will more than likely be going in the 9's next year.
I'll know more in the upcoming weeks if I like this clutch or not.
If I do like it...you'll see and feel it on my next visit to the drum.
Just don't count me out...just yet...I've got a few tricks up my sleeve still!
I've got a list of changes going to happen this winter as long as my arm.
Ray
if all else fails with my attempt to get a comp to work as designed and be quiet...here is my back up plan that I got today.
Ray
Vulcan Works comp eliminating sprocket
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
What does the inside of that Vulcan sprocket look like, the part that butts up against the rotor?
Ray, I love watching you constantly trying to make it better and faster. And not being afraid to try new things, and break a few things.
Thanks for all the info from your efforts.
Here you go FSG.
Vulcan Works sprocket backside view.
[attach=0]
the spacer that goes between the sprocket and the rotor. It measures 0.1875".
[attach=1]
the washer for the crank bolt that was also supplied.
[attachimg=3]
Ray
added later:
the Vulcan Works sprocket is a 34 tooth sprocket made from 4140 tool steel that is heat treated...for the 07- up Twin Cams.
It comes with the spacer and a crank bolt washer with this sprocket. It lists for $175.50 with free shipping from Vulcan Works.com
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
:up:
Try out that sprocket first. You will know from the start whether you like it or not. Since you have been through the comps. you know they take some time to show you good or bad.
I have to add since I had the transmission work done, my drop into first gear is a very subtle click into first gear like all of the motocrossers I raced before. Your feelings of the vibration at cruise will let you know if it's a keeper or not.
Quote from: jam65 on August 30, 2014, 04:50:54 PM
Try out that sprocket first. You will know from the start whether you like it or not. Since you have been through the comps. you know they take some time to show you good or bad.
I have to add since I had the transmission work done, my drop into first gear is a very subtle click into first gear like all of the motocrossers I raced before. Your feelings of the vibration at cruise will let you know if it's a keeper or not.
good point Jay!
I could have it buttoned up in no time with the Primo clutch...but we have rain forecasted for the next three days here. I don't know if I'd get a chance to ride it before my new clutch and Evo basket come in.
My new clutch and basket is due in on Wednesday.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 30, 2014, 10:06:21 AM
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 07:50:45 AM
yep...6 fingers on this Barnett lock up vs the 4 fingers on my Primo unit. As you know the Primo had no adjustability with coil springs.
All I can do now is see if it does what it's advertised to do.
Ray
[attach=0]
You still don't get it on the set up . Its not about the number of fingers , its about the adjustability of the fingers . A good set of .090 - .105 feeler gauges and some springs is all you need .
Remember Rivera blowing smoke up your tail pipe about how their new setup would work ?
That one was free . And never made it to the track . This one will cost ya to find out .
If your afraid you can't ride it on the street with the MTC lockup , it's street-able as well.
This class will be in the. 9's soon . Think ahead if your really gonna try and compete .
Oh...I get it Jim...I'm just exploring another option we will say. This Barnett clutch is new and I don't know how good or bad it will be until I try it.
This one is suppose to be totally adjustable too. The only person I know of that is running this Barnett set up that I've heard of before is Wink Eller...and like I said...it held his 314 hp bike and didn't slip. That has to be way better than what I had as you well know...so I've got to be headed in the right direction with this clutch if it works as advertised to me. I've had a few pm's from some of the top name guys on this forum and they said this clutch is a smart move. :nix:
Now as far as me getting it dialed in...it will be a learning curve for me and I will play with it until I find what I'm looking for...if I can actually get out of it what I want. If I can't get it to do what I want...well let's just say it won't be the 1st time I tried a product and I didn't like it after I ran it.
Who knows...this might be the next greatest clutch money can buy and no one has tried it and given it a chance. :nix:
I do agree with you and I will have to be thinking outside of the box if I want to be competitive with these guys that will more than likely be going in the 9's next year.
I'll know more in the upcoming weeks if I like this clutch or not.
If I do like it...you'll see and feel it on my next visit to the drum.
Just don't count me out...just yet...I've got a few tricks up my sleeve still!
I've got a list of changes going to happen this winter as long as my arm.
Ray
I am sure it will work fine for your application
i dont see why it wont hold all your power and work fine on the dyno either .
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 12:52:29 PM
if all else fails with my attempt to get a comp to work as designed and be quiet...here is my back up plan that I got today.
Ray
Vulcan Works comp eliminating sprocket
[attach=0]
Now I'm paying attention, I would love to read your feedback on that solid sprocket on the street. I went to solid sprocket on my 93" shovel years ago and I love it (and yes I know that's comparing BB's to bowling balls here).
In my nearly factory 12 UC EG I can run down the road and let the rpms drop a bit I can hear the compensator clank. The damn thing only has 5500 miles on it.
Mark
BUBBIE pm'd me and said the crank bolt washer had some rough looking edges on it that could possibly flake off...so I cleaned it up on the grinder.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
BUBBIE...I went one step further and hit the washer with 2000 degree header paint.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Dam, if the 30 tooth Evo solid made the drive train rough, can't imagine what the full size will do. :crash: Fisher tried that years ago and even with a mini damper in it, there wasn't a lot of success in the smoothness department compared to a comp.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 31, 2014, 07:10:42 AM
Dam, if the 30 tooth Evo solid made the drive train rough, can't imagine what the full size will do. :crash: Fisher tried that years ago and even with a mini damper in it, there wasn't a lot of success in the smoothness department compared to a comp.
Ron
I got one here right now. (solid evo)
I cant get it to stop clacking at idle no matter what idle rpm (within reason) or timing I use.
some you can and some you cant.
it starts to clatter pretty good when your cruising at low rpms. right before what I would consider lugging it. keep the rpms up and it feels fine.
:hyst:
Ray might at times be a Bugger but surly not a Lugger..... :hyst:
Ray,
I pm'ed you because I didn't want to sound PICK-E on the forum... I have Enough bad stuff and eating Crow here now and then... :potstir:
Knowing you just from the forum, I thought you would do what you did to that washer. I feel better about it. And the paint is a Bonus...
signed....BUBBIE
Ray,
I can see that you're focused on the primary these days, when you get a chance, would you please post a pic showing how you have the Jaz Catch Can mounted on the down tube? Would you change anything about your breather set-up if you were to do it again?
Thanks
It's mounted using the supplied bracket with two radiator hose clamps I painted black.
I don't think I would change a thing with this breather set up I'm running. I'm very happy with the way it works.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
How much does it catch and how often does it need to be drained? Mine is just dumping to the ground and I know that isn't right..
I drain mine about every tank of fuel I run thru the bike. It put's maybe 1/8-1/4" of muck in the bottom of a plastic water bottle when I drain it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 30, 2014, 11:25:20 AM
right now Mike my goal is to get it back together and running again.
I was out in the barn cleaning parts getting it ready. I just happened to notice the marks on my clutch rod. It's about 5" from the end. My guess is it was being caused by trap door flex. My inner primary has a small mark on it also.
Ray
clutch rod marks
[attach=0]
clutch rod mark measurement
[attach=1]
inner primary mark by the bolt
[attachimg=3]
My marks on my inner primary are a lot worse than what you have. I noticed they stopped after I installed the Baker DD7. Maybe the mainshaft is not flexing as much???
I will start a new thread on my many clutch, drive sprocket findings and failures.
This is what happens with a direct drive and AIM lock-up with a stock hub... This is the third one....[attach=1][attach=0]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
not pretty Burch.
Ray
What oil was in there,and how many miles on it? And what did you run for the chain adjuster?
Bad stuff right there.... :wink:
The Barnett Scorpion low profile lock up clutch, and the Evo Ind. clutch basket, and a sprocket and ramp for my SE comp all came in today.
1st I'd like to thank Richard K. and rbabos for sending me some replacement comp parts. I went ahead and ran the comp to see if I have better luck this time.
I pressed the clutch hub into the Evo basket and commenced to assembling everything. All went together smoothly. I had 5/8" cold deflection on the primary chain and all looked well.
Randy (groundhog135) stopped over and helped me finish buttoning things up.
We both were amazed at how easy the clutch pull was on this Barnett...it's way easier than the Primo with the gold spring.
I only rode the bike down the road to the stop sign to make sure everything felt and sounded right. It shifted positive and had a nice firm feeling to it. I turned around at the stop sign which is about 1/2 mile...to go back home and clean my mess up in the barn.
The bike did shift flawlessly and seems to be smoother and neutral was a breeze to find...but a longer ride tomorrow will tell the final tale. The Spectro Golden 85 seems to be a nice addition in the primary also.
Ray
Ray,
Do you mean Barnett Scorpion? or did you go with the Bandit Sportsman after all the painful research you did? :missed:
yes :doh:
thanks kd...I went back and corrected it!
Ray
havin a little drinkypoo tonight eh :hyst:
I was on the hard stuff too kd....ice tea :hyst:
I was just overly excited to get it back together...but it did start with a "B" at least :doh:
Ray
The ride into work this morning was the best and quietest the primary has ever been since I bought this bike new in 2008.
The clutch pull is "butter" !
Ray
Thanks for the info Ray! Please keep us updated, I appreciate everyone's input letting us know what does and doesn't work. :bike:
Quote from: No Cents on September 04, 2014, 04:02:29 AM
The ride into work this morning was the best and quietest the primary has ever been since I bought this bike new in 2008.
The clutch pull is "butter" !
Ray
Is that with the sprocket?
No...I ran the SE comp with the replacement pieces that Richard K. and rbabos sent me.
Ray
What chain tensioner are you now running?
Now we have to wait until you get the itch to see how it holds. :missed:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on September 04, 2014, 06:25:52 AM
What chain tensioner are you now running?
Steve...the stock tensioner welded in place with 5/8" cold chain deflection.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 04, 2014, 06:52:19 AM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on September 04, 2014, 06:25:52 AM
What chain tensioner are you now running?
Steve...the stock tensioner welded in place with 5/8" cold chain deflection.
Ray
Keep in mind what I said about it's behaviour when matched with certain engine running traits. :wink:
Glad it's back to quiet.
Ron
these came today.
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Ray , i would love to be your UPS delivery guy :bike:
Quote from: rbabos on September 04, 2014, 06:58:41 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 04, 2014, 06:52:19 AM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on September 04, 2014, 06:25:52 AM
What chain tensioner are you now running?
Steve...the stock tensioner welded in place with 5/8" cold chain deflection.
Ray
Keep in mind what I said about it's behaviour when matched with certain engine running traits. :wink:
Glad it's back to quiet.
Ron
'Would like to hear more about the "ingredients" in the rebuilt comp?
Do the "engine running traits" have to do with minimal deceleration by engine braking until the primary is up to operating temp?
Ray, Thanks for the pic of the Jaz, and all of your "Helpers" for the Real World R&D!!!
here is what the bike sounds like with the Barnett clutch/Evo basket with the 4th SE comp and the Spectro Golden 85W.
It's the quitest the primary compartment has been to date.
Oh...that new Barnett lock up clutch...is a keeper :wink:
Ray
added later:
this video was taken on a heat soaked engine...notice the lower left outside ambient air temperature gauge on the dash. It was almost 100* in the barn when I pulled the bike into it and parked it.
The barn had been shut up all day and the sun had been beating down on it...so it had it quit warm inside. The outside temp was 92* that day.
http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ (http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ)
Quote from: No Cents on September 04, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
here is what the bike sounds like with the Barnett clutch/Evo basket with the 4th SE comp and the Spectro Golden 85W.
It's the quitest the primary compartment has been to date.
Oh...that new Barnett lock up clutch...is a keeper :wink:
Ray
http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ (http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ)
Ray, does that bracelet work? Primary sounds good. :up:
Ron
Ha I didn't even notice the bracelet. I was too busy trying to figure out if the primary was on the wash or rinse cycle.
The W/R cycle make this bike faster, always cleaning up its act!!! Happy to see you have fixed the clutch issues for now. Its time to see if you can BREAK it, lol Buffalo
Ron...yes it works.
I've worn it for over 15 years. If I don't wear it over night...when I wake up in the morning I can not even lift my arm higher than shoulder height.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 05, 2014, 08:46:50 AM
Ron...yes it works.
I've worn it for over 15 years. If I don't wear it over night...when I wake up in the morning I can not even lift my arm higher than shoulder height.
Ray
Hmmm. Wonder if it will improve my golf game. I suck and the wife always beats me. :hyst: Got some joint pain too. Qray, correct?
Ron
Ron
Yes it's a Q-Ray.
It's saved me from having to have rotator cup surgery...and let me live with my arthritis.
Ray
:hyst:
Sounds like you guys Just need a NEW Voltage Regulator... :kick:
Our bodies are TOO full of moisture at times (Max and Ron have this one solved) :hyst:
MY ground must be a little rusty as the flow has slowed up a bit... I feel the need for SOMETHING to help me out. :scratch:
Electrical? A Bracelet Might do the trick...?.?.? :nix:
IF No Cents says it works,,,,,, IT Must work...
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: BUBBIE on September 05, 2014, 09:47:47 AM
:hyst:
Sounds like you guys Just need a NEW Voltage Regulator... :kick:
Our bodies are TOO full of moisture at times (Max and Ron have this one solved) :hyst:
MY ground must be a little rusty as the flow has slowed up a bit... I feel the need for SOMETHING to help me out. :scratch:
Electrical? A Bracelet Might do the trick...?.?.? :nix:
IF No Cents says it works,,,,,, IT Must work...
signed....BUBBIE
It's a slow day. What can I say? :hyst:
Ron
Quote from: No Cents on September 04, 2014, 05:55:02 PM
here is what the bike sounds like with the Barnett clutch/Evo basket with the 4th SE comp and the Spectro Golden 85W.
It's the quitest the primary compartment has been to date.
Oh...that new Barnett lock up clutch...is a keeper :wink:
Ray
http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ (http://youtu.be/4TSxZIOrkVk?list=UUrXxFkp9-7wYGBXjgEfFVkQ)
Does this mean we will see the ol' Duracell at Beech Bend the end of the month?
Nope
Ray do you have the fiber washer from GMR in your comp.
Ray. So what did it cost for all the pieces to make your Burns pipe? Just curious.
Quote from: No Cents on September 05, 2014, 01:43:12 PM
Nope
Oh well, guess i'll just have to wait for the video :smile:
Soft 02...I think all the pieces from Burns came to $927.00 to my door.
That included the megaphone muffler with the collector already welded on.
digga25...no I'm running the earlier SE comp before this latest HD release...where you can run the fiber washer.
Daren...I've decided it won't see the strip until it gets a face lift this winter. Next spring I hope to make a valiant effort to make a few races. I want to be at least half way competitive.
Ray
Thanks Ray. Having a TIG I might do this down the road.
Quote from: Soft 02 on September 05, 2014, 05:05:41 PM
Thanks Ray. Having a TIG I might do this down the road.
Soft 02...go to Burns Stainless web site and fill out the "race engine spec forum" at the top of their home page.
It will ask all the details of your engine and where you want the power to be.
Vince @ Burns will computer design what size OD and the length of the steps for the exhaust so you can accomplish your goal.
It's a free service they offer.
Ray
Thank. Still have to choke down the cost of this motor and havnt even ridin it yet. Dyno this Wednesday.
Lots of excellent info in this thread..
ive done a lot of searches and this on seems to come up a lot.
thank you Ray and everyone else that made this thread informative and exciting
Quote from: N-gin on September 05, 2014, 06:19:42 PM
Lots of excellent info in this thread..
ive done a lot of searches and this on seems to come up a lot.
thank you Ray and everyone else that made this thread informative and exciting
:agree: :up:
Old groundhog135 and myself took a little ride this afternoon. Stopped at a little watering hole for a pizza and some cool refreshments along the way.
Randy let that 103"er with that RB pipe chew a few times. :fish: I just wish the old Duracell could keep up with him. :embarrassed:
The Barnett clutch I'm running now is very nice.
I might of banged it off the rev limiter a few times today and lifted the front end off the ground...maybe once :wink: ok...maybe twice :hyst:
Ray
added later:
I have to get these little digs in while I can because Randy is going to be leaving me in the dust with the monster he will be bolting in his bike. [attach=0]
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:up:
thanks for the keys Durwood. :wink:
It felt nice to spin a wrench after I rode the bike home from work today.
Ray
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The more ya ride'em the slower they get...
I'll try to put a little more pep in it's step this time Billy. :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 09, 2014, 05:50:40 PM
:up:
thanks for the keys Durwood. :wink:
It felt nice to spin a wrench after I rode the bike home from work today.
Ray
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:up:
Quote from: No Cents on September 09, 2014, 05:50:40 PM
:up:
thanks for the keys Durwood. :wink:
It felt nice to spin a wrench after I rode the bike home from work today.
Ray
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Ray, How many miles on those pistons? What's on the menu this time?
Quote from: No Cents on September 09, 2014, 05:59:14 PM
I'll try to put a little more pep in it's step this time Billy. :hyst:
Ray
:hyst: :hyst:
BTW, Do you polish the inside of that cam cover? It's amazingly clear.
Ray i just rode with you a couple of days ago,do i need to check you into rehab... :wtf:
Rehab...yes! :banghead: If all goes well...I might have it back together in two weeks time.
I just checked the mileage...7000 miles on those pistons and cylinders.
It will get different pistons, cams, new cam bearings, the new DT cam plate, PAC Racing RPM Series valve springs, different rocker arms, and lifters...just to name a few changes.
The S&S cylinders looked amazing with no up and down marks and the cross hatch hone marks were standing proud.
The pistons and cylinders will get dropped off tomorrow to Bill at Bore Tech to have the .010 over Diamond Racing domed pistons fit to the cylinders. Bill said he will get right on them.
No Billy...I haven't polished the inside of the cam cover. :hyst:
Ray
Ray, You sir need help! :hyst:
Ray,
Those lifters are the best I have tried. And I have had more than a few.
Bike sounds fantastic.
Bob
Will mama notice the smell of gas on her couch pillow you got the tank on?
Quote from: Soft 02 on September 09, 2014, 07:37:30 PM
Will mama notice the smell of gas on her couch pillow you got the tank on?
:hyst: that's actually an old folded up quilt she was going to throw away. I snatched it for just such an occasion.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 09, 2014, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on September 09, 2014, 07:37:30 PM
Will mama notice the smell of gas on her couch pillow you got the tank on?
:hyst: that's actually an old folded up quilt she was going to throw away. I snatched it for just such an occasion.
Ray
I made a bad mistake I hate to admit with my tank. I had it sitting on a couple of those oil absorbent mats in my shop and a couple of blue solo cups full of hardware around the tank. Well some fuel leaked out and melted the cups to my tank and removed a 1"x2" piece of clear from the under side of my tank. If you cant laugh about it you might cry.
sorry to hear that...that sucks for sure. You look like you have a nice paint job on that softy.
Ray
I got a use for yer old pisons if you dont ;)
Awesomeness!
You like to wrench as much as you like to ride.
I'll drink to that :soda:
Cheers
stopping point for tonight.
Ray
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Ray, make it to Bill's today?
yes I did Brian.
He is going to take care of the fitting the piston to the cylinders for me.
Nice guy!
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 10, 2014, 07:04:32 PM
yes I did Brian.
He is going to care of the fitting the piston to the cylinders for me.
Nice guy!
Ray
Yeah, he ain't too bad... :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on September 09, 2014, 05:50:40 PM
:up:
thanks for the keys Durwood. :wink:
It felt nice to spin a wrench after I rode the bike home from work today.
Ray
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oh Lord... :doh:
I'm surprised there isn't a baker dd7 in there yet. :idea:
The cams are in with the new Dan Thayer cam plate and his 3 stage oil pump...Dan's newly designed cam plate is a very nice high quality piece just like his oil pump.
I went with the S&S Premium H2LT lifters this time and have them in their holes.
Now it's just wait for Bill to get done fitting the pistons to the cylinders, and Larry to do his thing to the heads.
Ray
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Looks great so far. With all the changes do you have your dyno tune scheduled?
Looking forward to seeing the difference this all makes. Thanks again for sharing all you do here so that we all learn from your money and hard work.
BTW which cams are in it?
Surely the cycle-rama cams :pop:
Saw the pistons and cylinders about 30 minutes ago, you're in the queue. :teeth:
Maybe it is going to be a surprise.
If i recall correctly there was a new grind coming out and he was in line to do some more experimenting.
Watching this thread is better than watching a movie.. It never ends.. And it's ALL Good.. :up: I "Thought" about 3 builds since this started and settled on just a bump.. :embarrassed:
CR651's with Baisley 1.725 stilts going on the intakes.
It will give me .690 lift on the intakes and .628 on the exhaust.
Ray
I'm interested in seeing that DH comp!!! Is that still happening?
Quote from: Soft 02 on September 12, 2014, 07:23:29 PM
I'm interested in seeing that DH comp!!! Is that still happening?
I haven't heard anything back from John yet. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 13, 2014, 04:20:08 AM
Quote from: Soft 02 on September 12, 2014, 07:23:29 PM
I'm interested in seeing that DH comp!!! Is that still happening?
I haven't heard anything back from John yet. :nix:
Ray
Join the club i have been waiting a year for John to get me one to
ceramic wheel bearings will be going in.
Ray
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Quote from: No Cents on September 12, 2014, 06:37:24 PM
CR651's with Baisley 1.725 stilts going on the intakes.
It will give me .690 lift on the intakes and .628 on the exhaust.
Ray
What Compression Ratio are you going to run? (or did I miss it?)
The pistons are just +4cc domes...so it should move me from 11.10:1 to 11.86:1. Nothing crazy but it should be fun.
I decided today to tighten up the tolerances on my rocker arm supports and the lifters to the roll pins.
The lifters on the rear both had .007 gap between the pin and lifter, and the fronts both had .004. Zipper's suggests .002- .004 gap.
I'll set all lifters with .002 gap. The rear will take a .255 pin and the front will take a .252 pin.
The SE forged rocker arm supports took a little more work. I removed material for each rocker arm support so I could use a .010 316 stainless steel shim on each rocker arm. The intakes were the worst with .011 and .012 gap...while both exhausts were .007.
I tightened them up so each rocker arm has .004 gap.
Hopefully this will make for a very quiet valve train.
Ray
SE rocker arm supports with S&S 1.625 exhaust roller rockers, and Baisley 1.725 rollers on the intakes.
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lifter block pins.
[attach=1]
Quote from: No Cents on September 14, 2014, 04:25:09 PM
The pistons are just +4cc domes...so it should move me from 11.10:1 to 11.86:1. Nothing crazy but it should be fun.
I decided today to tighten up the tolerances on my rocker arm supports and the lifters to the roll pins.
The lifters on the rear both had .007 gap between the pin and lifter, and the fronts both had .004. Zipper's suggests .002- .004 gap.
I set all lifters with .002 gap. The rear took a .255 pin and the front took a .252 pin.
The SE forged rocker arm supports took a little more work. I removed material for each rocker arm support so I could use a .010 316 stainless steel shim on each rocker arm. The intakes were the worst with .011 and .012 gap...while both exhausts were .007.
I tightened them up so each rocker arm has .004 gap.
Hopefully this will make for a very quiet valve train.
Ray
SE rocker arm supports with S&S 1.625 exhaust roller rockers, and Baisley 1.725 rollers on the intakes.
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lifter block pins.
[attach=1]
All that extra drag from tight fitting parts will slow your et down. :hyst: Personally I think .002 is too tight. Those pins should not be relied on for control but more to prevent an out of control condition, like the roller bouncing over a big chunk of debri on one side of the roller or some bad alignment issues with the bore/cam lobe, slanted lobe and so on, mostly over center on the lobe tip. Basically you do not want constant contact with the lifter body and the pin. I've not had any success with rocker shimming to reduce noise. Some have, or claim to have.
Ron
I haven't installed the pins yet. I ordered them Friday and they are suppose to be here Tuesday. I ordered sizes from .251- thru .258.
I can go with a less tighter pin clearance if need be.
Ron...so you think I should leave the fronts @ .004 and make the rear cylinder lifters the same with a .253 pin?
.004 would be the outside tolerance according to Zipper's.
Ray
Nice attention to details Ray.
:up:
thank you Gordon...I'm trying :embarrassed:
Ray
QuoteThe pistons are just +4cc domes...so it should move me from 11.10:1 to 11.86:1.
Ray, we have talked, and I know what advice you have been given by some very illustrious people. I just don't think I would want to run that sort of compression on our CA pump gas (not your problem however!) I am reducing the compression in my next build so I can continue to run a lot of advance timing for its better throttle response and let the breathability of the heads/intake do the work.
-Tutt
I think 0.004 is plenty tight Ray. When I pulled the 117 down for lifters, the Gaterman lifters were in the 0.010 to 0.011 range, and the B's were 0.005 to 0.006 with std. diameter pins. If you remember the pins that I took out were marked from the lifters, so I would say unless you have excessive clearance like those did, should be no worries at 0.004 to 0.006.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,71385.msg797749.html#msg797749 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,71385.msg797749.html#msg797749)
In that case Brian...I'll just use an oversized pin for the rear lifters. A 0.253 will give me .004 gap like the front lifters have.
"A"...I hear you on backing down the compression out where you are. It seems these 131"ers and up run around 10.5:1 with great success.
The extra cubes just make them monsters with their bore size alone. The new S&S 142 ???+/- crate engine is suppose to be set @ 10.5:1 from what my guy @ S&S told me. It's suppose to be able to run on junk fuel from what I'm told...but it does like the higher octane.
Ray
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 14, 2014, 04:57:01 PM
I think 0.004 is plenty tight Ray. When I pulled the 117 down for lifters, the Gaterman lifters were in the 0.010 to 0.011 range, and the B's were 0.005 to 0.006 with std. diameter pins. If you remember the pins that I took out were marked from the lifters, so I would say unless you have excessive clearance like those did, should be no worries at 0.004 to 0.006.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,71385.msg797749.html#msg797749 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,71385.msg797749.html#msg797749)
I'm in agreement. Lifter bores are just too damn sloppy to squeeze it down to .002. That .002 should be checked on the up valve side loading of the lifter, not static free play.
Ron
Very cool!! I can't wait to watch the progress! Good on ya Ray!
I put the ceramic wheel bearings in the back wheel today while the bike is up on the lift while I'm waiting on my parts to get done. I have to wait until I get the bike off the lift and back on the floor to use my ATV floor jack to do the front wheel.
I took the opportunity to clean the chain real good and lube it up while I was at it.
The ceramic bearings are amazing with how well they let the wheel spin. I spun the wheel before I put the chain back on it and it just spun, and spun, and spun.
There is no comparison between the stock wheel bearings and these ceramic bearings.
Ray
Reminds me of that Chris Rock piece about rims. There still spinnin, still spinnin. :hyst:No dig on your bearings Ray. I might have to talk to those people at some point.
Quote from: No Cents on September 20, 2014, 05:03:45 PM
I put the ceramic wheel bearings in the back wheel today while the bike is up on the lift while I'm waiting on my parts to get done. I have to wait until I get the bike off the lift and back on the floor to use my ATV floor jack to do the front wheel.
I took the opportunity to clean the chain real good and lube it up while I was at it.
The ceramic bearings are amazing with how well they let the wheel spin. I spun the wheel before I put the chain back on it and it just spun, and spun, and spun.
There is no comparison between the stock wheel bearings and these ceramic bearings.
Ray
When it comes time for wheel bearings in the '09, I am considering the ceramics, any idea as to the estimated service life compared to the OE (on a Sport Touring bike)? Or would you only recommend them for a hot rod?
Would you post a link to the ones that you used?
Thanks
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Ray
a little update:
I got the heads back from Larry today and I'm still waiting on the pistons and cylinders...hopefully I'll see them in the next day or so.
Larry did a fantastic job setting the heads up for the .750 lift PAC dual springs. :up:
I have the locking collars installed on the valves to check the TDC lifts when I clay the engine.
Ray
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Ray , your work bench looks like mine did for the last 2 months ! Best of luck on the new build :chop:
:hyst: Thanks Josh...but that's my lay out table where the clean parts get put into baggies and wait to be installed.
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I'd be embarrassed to take a picture of my work bench that's on the other side of the barn...it's a wreck :embarrassed:
Ray
Nice mustang !!!
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/jponchel/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsc2e46d3a.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/jponchel/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsc2e46d3a.jpg.html)
Looks great Ray, What did Larry do to the heads? What size intake valve is that?
Quote from: No Cents on September 20, 2014, 05:03:45 PM
I put the ceramic wheel bearings in the back wheel today while the bike is up on the lift while I'm waiting on my parts to get done. I have to wait until I get the bike off the lift and back on the floor to use my ATV floor jack to do the front wheel.
I took the opportunity to clean the chain real good and lube it up while I was at it.
The ceramic bearings are amazing with how well they let the wheel spin. I spun the wheel before I put the chain back on it and it just spun, and spun, and spun.
There is no comparison between the stock wheel bearings and these ceramic bearings.
Ray
Has negative HP run ever been collected on your bike? It be interesting to see a before and after.
Larry did not change the valves...they are the same as before. It's a 2.1" intake.
Larry set the heads up for the .750 lift PAC dual springs.
Jason...I don't know what your talking about when you say "negative hp".
Ray
Ray,
It is a run made on the dyno just like a HP and TQ run, BUT you take this by starting a run around redline and let the bike coast down. The reading is negative HP and is suppose to represent the drag of all drive components. It is a representation of the parasitic loses that the transmission, chain/ belt and bearings induce. To do a back to back with just wheel bearing swap might verify those bearing in a real world scenario. There is a little more to it. The bearings in the dyno's negative HP is a good base line to know before you start. Your operator can probably tell you more.
I talked to a well known retired drag racer about his testing of MicroBlue coating he got done on all the bearings in the bike. (I thought they all looked over heated.) He said he saw improvement with HP, but wasn't a true believer until he saw less negative HP.
I was just wondering. Some guys do it, and some don't. I do it on my drum with starter about every month, and I do it on builds that are not putting out like expected. I always do my bikes, and the bikes I know will be back after changes are made down the road. It's decent info that need to be taken and interpreted like regular HP and TQ reading of DJ.
I guess this is a "clutch in" comparison to eliminate engine decel effect?
Yes, we don't want engine involved.
I see what your talking about now...but no...I don't think any testing like that has ever been done to my bike.
Ray
added later:
I'm headed to Bore Tech to pick up the pistons and cylinders after work. :teeth:
Looks like this weekend I might be able to have it back up and running again...if all goes well with mock up.
Hey Ray Baggies,I remember them 3 Fingers Deep when I seen them..... :hyst:
Sorry Mike. It used to be four.
The damn thing is back to it's old self...fighting me the whole way. I couldn't even get the 1st cylinder down over the bottom rings. I got too aggravated and had to walk away for the night. My eyes are too bad to be messing with it in the barn at night with not so good lighting.
Mike and Jay...you guys bought the wrong quantity...think pounds...not three and four finger baggies :hyst:
Ray
added later:
and no...I can not put the piston into the cylinder on the work bench...and then just slide the pin into the rod.
These 124 pistons have the bottom ring land in the top of the pin hole...which does not allow you to push the pin straight in without contacting the ring in the bottom land.
I figured some of you guys were laughing at me on that one and I better explain why I'm having to do it the way I am. The only way I can see to do it is to put the pistons on the rods...then install the rings once the piston is on the rod...then slide the cylinder on.
If I'm missing something here...by all means tell me what I'm not doing right...if you know of a better way. I do have the Goodson piston ring compressor tool.
I plan on getting another set of eyes and hands on it with me when I get home from work today while I still have some good daylight to brighten up the subject.
It's hell getting old men...and your eyes just don't want to see as good as they use to.
I've gotten this far without breaking anything...so I'm not going to rush something and break a ring over being in a hurry.
YOU GOT IT RAY, MORE LIGHT. A 25 YEAR OLD AND A 50 YEAR OLD, BOTH WITH 20-20 VISION, 50 YEAR OLD NEEDS TWICE AS MUCH LIGHT. AS FAR AS I KNOW (WHICH ISN'T MUCH) PISTON ON IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT.
Double check in good light that your oil ring set does not have an overlapping expander.The expander ends must be butted together,this can be very easy to have happen and hard to see.the oil rails will look fine but if that expander overlaps each end .you will never get past that ,as it wont allow the pack to compress enough.It is true older guys need lots of light,I was told.
well men...I made a little progress today after work. Randy stopped over and together we got the cylinders on. It fought us...but we showed it who was boss. :hyst:
I did the 1st heat cycle @ 11:30 pm and then called it a night.
I seen no leaks...and it sounds pretty damn good. :teeth:
Ray
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What is expectations of this experiment ? HP and tq wise. Thanks Pete
What are the plans after the heat cycles are done? If this was all to make more power some place on the curve it will require fuel and timing changes to achieve that goal as well as keep it from hurting itself. Sure you could vtune the fuel in the street range but that will do nothing for the WOT and vtune does nothing to remove timing. Every time you go up a step on the build you get a step closer to a motor that will destroy itself just by running if it is not in proper tune. And you my friend have stepped up a long way from the "bolt in cam, it is better by the butt dyno days."
Pete...no real expectations. I had these domed pistons sitting on the shelf and I wanted to use them. I honestly don't think it is going to gain much because they were only +4cc domed pistons. I does sound a little angrier from what I heard from the 1st heat cycle.
Eric...I e-mailed Jim and asked him if it needed a break in tune loaded into it. He said to ride it with the current tune...just don't over heat it and it will be fine.
I do plan on getting a proper tune put on it. I will do the heat cycles and then do a 50 mile oil change and then a 100 mile oil change. I'm not going to rip on it...I'll be gentle.
Once I've got it to that point...no butt tune will be applied...it will go to the master so he can properly dial it in.
You taught me well. I learned my lesson.
Ray
added later:
2nd heat cycle is done and all seems well so far. :teeth:
added later today:
all heats cycles are done and I took it into town to get some gas. I rode it only 10 miles and had to park it to do other things on the honey do list.
The bike felt extremely strong for keeping it under 3k rpms.
Maybe tomorrow I can put enough miles on it to do it's 1st oil change.
Sounds great Ray! Glad youre back on it.. I know youll keep us posted.. Thanks again.. Scooter
:up:
thanks Scott.
I took it out this morning for it's 1st 50 mile ride before it's initial oil change...which turned into 160 miles before I made it back home. I just couldn't get off it. It ran that well...even with the -2 tune in it. It starts as soon as you touch the button on the heat soaked engine...and it idles very nice. I can tell it will need some fine tuning...but man did it ever feel good to get it out and just feel it.
Here is what it sounds like after the compression bump and the CR651 cams on 1.725 stilts on the intakes and S&S limited lifters. The valve train is probably the quietest it's ever been to date.
I did not rev it over 3500 rpm's...but @ 2500- 2600 rpm's you can feel those CR651's give it a kick in the butt and make it want to gitty up and go. I'm liking what I'm feeling.
It's going to need the strokerjlk touch put on it very soon.
http://youtu.be/_PU9PF8hElw (http://youtu.be/_PU9PF8hElw)
Ray
The motor sounded healthy Sunday!!!!! Tried to get Ray to give it a twist :kick:
I had posted on here earlier about my clear rim here it is
Man that sounds good Ray !
Sounds awesome Ray..Hope you get some miles on it before the weather turns.. Scott
It's running like crap Josh & Scott...it needs tuned badly. Hollywood tried to get me to rip on it some Sunday...but I held my ground and kept it under 3000 rpm's the best I could. I can feel areas in it that need addressed badly in the tuning department...so I'm not going to let it chew and tear something up.
I've been spoiled lately with having good tunes...so it's going to have to make it back to Jim's very soon for me to be happy.
I actually parked it today for good...until I can make it back to him.
Ray
Jim will get it rippin for sure :chop:
:pop:
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on September 30, 2014, 06:17:31 PM
Jim will get it rippin for sure :chop:
I hope so Josh. It just doesn't like the tune it has in it with the changes I've made. The extra compression along with the higher cam lift and later intake closing definately has an effect on the engine, and the -2 tune doesn't work with it very well at all. I tried to load my initial 124 tune back into it that used the same CR651 cams...but it still didn't make it any better. I guess compression plays a big part in a tune.
It starts great and idles fine...but it's needing attention after that. My guess is the timing and fuel mixture is not even close to what it's wanting now.
I think it will be a very nice combo with the proper tune done to it. I like the way it feels so far. I can tell it wants to run.
I hope when Jim gets done with it...I will be smiling with this combination.
Ray
Ray, aside from the clutch and basket, what things should people be looking for to break? The stock transmission trap door and maybe stock main bearing? The belt? Is the latest SE comp with one of the funnels and Golden Spectro oil enough? It might help others to know. Thanks for sharing your experiences again. "-A-" :teeth:
I don't know the answer to that Andy.
I can only say what I've had to do along the way so far. It's all a learning experience for me.
This winter my tranny is going to be addressed. I do know for sure the trap door is flexing with the evidence I seen with the marks on the clutch rod.
Belt or chain final drive...I like the chain for the extra strength...but I hate cleaning it. So that's one you will have to answer for yourself. The belt is basically zero maintenance...where as the chain needs attention every couple weeks cleaning it and lubing it up.
The clutch and basket is an upgrade that will no doubt be needed.
The comp :doh: ...lets just say I'm on comp #4 and still not totally happy...but I do have a comp eliminator sprocket to try if this one starts talking to me.
Ray
added later:
Jim was kind enough to send me a tune tonight to load into my bike to get me by for a little while until I can get the bike up to him.
I loaded it in and I'll ride it to work in the morning and see if it will help it out any.
Hopefully I can continue to ride mine and once Randy has his new S&S 144"er ready to go in his bike...then I'll drop both our bikes off at Jim's at the same time.
Quote from: No Cents on October 01, 2014, 05:50:09 PM
I don't know the answer to that Andy.
I can only say what I've had to do along the way so far. It's all a learning experience for me.
This winter my tranny is going to be addressed. I do know for sure the trap door is flexing with the evidence I seen with the marks on the clutch rod.
Belt or chain final drive...I like the chain for the extra strength...but I hate cleaning it. So that's one you will have to answer for yourself. The belt is basically zero maintenance...where as the chain needs attention every couple weeks cleaning it and lubing it up.
The clutch and basket is an upgrade that will no doubt be needed.
The comp :doh: ...lets just say I'm on comp #4 and still not totally happy...but I do have a comp eliminator sprocket to try if this one starts talking to me.
Ray
added later:
Jim was kind enough to send me a tune tonight to load into my bike to get me by for a little while until I can get the bike up to him.
I loaded it in and I'll ride it to work in the morning and see if it will help it out any.
Hopefully I can continue to ride mine and once Randy has his new S&S 144"er ready to go in his bike...then I'll drop both our bikes off at Jim's at the same time.
Personal experiences:
Belt has a stronger tensile strength but stretches, which can be good and bad. Once there is a small tear, its gone. So, things like road debris shorten its life as well as added hp.
Chain final drive is nice, but leave the cush drive.
Mod the swingarm for strength and length (RB Racing).
Lose the comp, go to an EVO sprocket, but be sure your wheels are welded if you go this route with high compression.
EVO basket is a must, the stock one is made of cheese.
Centrifical clutches are a good compromise, but do not use the stock hub with the other mods listed above as it will grenade!
I found issues with two 6sp... even with aftermarket trap door, I gave up and went to the DD7 couldn't be happier.
Stiffer motor mounts are in order.
timekins are a must in bottom end otherwise you wipe out the stator and rotors with the added flex.
Manual primary chain adjuster is much better especially if losing the comp.
more to list, but for now my bike is 7-10k a year miles reliable.
Good info.. learned from your experience.. Aaron is a good guy Ray, friend of mine.. You two will have to get together one day.. maybe next time you and Stroker, Jim, are in the same neighborhood.. These guys are a wealth of information Aaron, and really good guys to boot.. Stroker (Jim) has forgot more about drag racing bikes than most people know.. There you go guys.. Scott
I took a vacation day today and crossed a few things of my to do list.
1) drop the pan and change the tranny fluid and filter in the F-450 pickemup truck.
2) install the ceramic wheels bearings on the front of the bike...now I have them front and back.
3) install new head badges.
I got them all done...now if the roads would dry out so I can take the bike for a ride...I'd be happy.
The head badges were made by Kirby Apathy's buddy "Lurch". He does very nice work as you can see.
These head badges are engraved...not painted.
Ray
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
They look nice Ray, are they anodized?
yes they are Brian.
He uses .062 black anodized 6061- T6511 stock.
Ray
Ray what did you do with your stock trap door and wouldnt be willing to part with it?
It's still on the bike.
The tranny is going to be a winter time project.
Ray
Are you sure Randy won't let you help with the install? It just seem that if you were wrenching instead of typing we would have dyno porn a lot sooner. :hyst:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 04, 2014, 06:29:32 AM
Are you sure Randy won't let you help with the install? It just seem that if you were wrenching instead of typing we would have dyno porn a lot sooner. :hyst:
:agree: :hyst:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 04, 2014, 06:29:32 AM
Are you sure Randy won't let you help with the install? It just seem that if you were wrenching instead of typing we would have dyno porn a lot sooner. :hyst:
your wish was my command Eric. :hyst:
103 out...144"er in.
Ray
[attach=0]
:banghead: :banghead:
I finally made a wish that came true and I wasted it.
I should have wished for you to come put a 144 in my frame. :hyst:
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
I tried that "Potty mouth" too. See ya tomorrow. :hyst:
Ron
Cut the sh-t Ray.
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
Oh no you don't, not with winter comin on :smileo:
You promised us a two bike trip to Jim's.
I bought :beer: and :pop: just for viewing the results.
Ray the Story don't end like that,I am worried you will end up in the shed with preacher and Bertha
Then all Hells going to break loose,Call,text,or Email if you want to chat Ray Anytime ,you have My Infor,,,,,,,,,,, :beer:
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/67B33EF3-6CB1-4A74-987B-07CFC769E7B6.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/67B33EF3-6CB1-4A74-987B-07CFC769E7B6.jpg.html)
Well said Jim :up:
ya,i for one enjoyed reading your threads and the help if i PM you,i dont know whats going on but dont let someone or anything chase you off of here,Bobbyjoes
Thank God we have been friends and hell raisers for the past 35 yrs that way i can still get my daily fix :chop:
Oh no, there goes my daily fix.. Thanks for the wealth of information Ray.. hope this aint forever.. Well stated Jim!.. we gotta get you back Ray..... :wtf:
:gob:
HEY,
With ALL the work and answering Questions here and elsewhere PLUS the PM's he responds to. Ray Might need some time OFF
He Knows he is always WANTED here... Sharing/answering ALL like he does Would overwhelm most...
Have some good time OFF Ray. Waiting for your results on the New ride When You Are Ready..... :pop:
From One that you have Helped beyond Words...
signed....BUBBIE
Well from the picture sent I see tire stickers on the side of the lift. Probably be a bunch more after that new motor gets broke in.
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 05, 2014, 03:57:57 AM
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/67B33EF3-6CB1-4A74-987B-07CFC769E7B6.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/67B33EF3-6CB1-4A74-987B-07CFC769E7B6.jpg.html)
What Jim said. Will miss Ray, he was such a breath of fresh air.
:rose:
:hug:
Removed because You all know my feelings for Ray and the Other Quality members here on HTT...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
signed....BUBBIE
Too many negative people in this world. Ray has given his great attitude and passion for all thing Harley to this board. To hell with the haters.The majority here would hope you will still post up the good stuff we look forward to hearing from you.
I bet you are busy dealing with your PM box about this.
:up:
Ok, what the he.. did I miss? Someone here messing with Ray? :scratch:
very nice - coming right along :up:
I hope all is well Ray! We'll miss what you contribute here. Scott
I definitely missed something... Sorry to see you go Ray!! I enjoyed reading about your projects...
Really bummed about Ray's decision, but I get it.
Now whoever pi**ed up this rope needs to come out so we can bash him! :banghead:
Quote from: crewchief25H on October 07, 2014, 04:32:47 AM
I definitely missed something... Sorry to see you go Ray!!
You and me both. WTF is this all about?
Rick
I'm here guys :hug: ...I'm just opting to choose my postings a little more wisely.
Ray
Glad to see you back Ray ! It has been a long couple of days with no updates on your scoot . Please keep posting as alot of us learn from your posts . Josh
Quote from: No Cents on October 07, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
I'm here guys :hug: ...I'm just opting to choose my postings a little more wisely.
Ray
:up: :up:
Quote from: rbabos on October 04, 2014, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 04, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
I have to say I have enjoyed being a member on the forum here...but it's time for me to be signing off.
I've made a lot of friends on here and hope to meet a lot of you guys in the future.
So for now...I'm taking a break and will be laying low.
Everybody keep the shiny side up...and the rubber down!
Ray
I tried that "Potty mouth" too. See ya tomorrow. :hyst:
Ron
:up: :teeth:
Quote from: Burch753 on October 07, 2014, 05:11:11 AM
Really bummed about Ray's decision, but I get it.
Now whoever pi**ed up this rope needs to come out so we can bash him! :banghead:
Agree! :slap:
Page 100 . It's just like intermission . Go potty , get some :pop:. Grab a cool one , relax and watch an ole western . Come on back . Hell Rays just getting started .
Wheeew, glad to hear it Ray, what with winter comin on an all.. we need you to provide with food for thought to get us thru the frozen season.. well, you and some of Mamas moonshine ;D
Quote from: No Cents on October 07, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
I'm here guys :hug: ...I'm just opting to choose my postings a little more wisely.
Ray
Ray, you know who your friends are. The peripheral noise is just that. I think what I enjoy the most out of your builds and posts is that you are not here to self promote your business. This forum does not affect your livelihood. With that comes a certain level of respect and openness that the commercial members on this forum cannot replicate. Many of us are very grateful for what you willingly share here. L&R -Ed
Ray fk those guys.We know you and will back you up any time.Those that can...do,those that cant find fault and use every excuse why they cant do.
Quote from: digga25 on October 07, 2014, 04:17:31 PM
Ray fk those guys.We know you and will back you up any time.Those that can...do,those that cant find fault and use every excuse why they cant do.
Amen to that!! :up:
I look forward to reading Ray's post every morning over coffee. I haven't posted in a long time on here. Just too busy with the rebuild of my grandmother's 100 year old home. Ray's post keep me in the Harley frame of mind and of builds I've done in the years past. Keep up the good post Ray, you are what make this site what it is. A place to learn, even when some have thought they knew it all. Can't wait til the update on the new build.
signed Smarty
thanks for the kind words men...I truly appreciate it!
I ordered a set of these Vulcan 7075 billet rocker arm supports awhile back and they finally came in today. They have been on back order for over a month. I've also got a brand new set of S&S rocker arm shafts to install with them inside my Baisley 1.725 ratio rollers on the intakes and my S&S 1.625 ratio rollers on the exhausts.
I've always wanted to try a set of these Vulcan supports to see if I could tell any difference between them and the SE forged supports I've ran for years.
I'll check the clearances on the rocker arms before installing them in the bike...and afterwards with them torqued down and I'll post what gaps I find.
They look like a top quality machined piece. Now to see if they work as well as they are advertised.
It looks like this weekend will be a good time to do it because they are calling for rain here all weekend.
I plan on pulling my S&S H2LT lifters out and pulling them apart and taking a good peek inside them for debris since initial break in is complete.
Ray
[attach=0]
WOW Ray, those look beautiful!!
Good luck with that setup.
~John
QuoteI plan on pulling my S&S H2LT lifters out and pulling them apart .......
Can you measure the thickness of the limiters when you have the lifters apart? I suspect that S&S put together their H2LT Lifters using matched thickness limiters. The set I disassembled all four had .116" limiters which surprised me, not because of the thickness but because all four were the same. TIA
I sure will FSG...not a problem.
Ray
Ray those supports really look killer! glad you are back! i lurk a lot but enjoy your 8upness...
Travis :beer:
Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
thanks for the kind words men...I truly appreciate it!
I ordered a set of these Vulcan 7075 billet rocker arm supports awhile back and they finally came in today. They have been on back order for over a month. I've also got a brand new set of S&S rocker arm shafts to install with them inside my Baisley 1.725 ratio rollers on the intakes and my S&S 1.625 ratio rollers on the exhausts.
I've always wanted to try a set of these Vulcan supports to see if I could tell any difference between them and the SE forged supports I've ran for years.
I'll check the clearances on the rocker arms before installing them in the bike...and afterwards with them torqued down and I'll post what gaps I find.
They look like a top quality machine piece. Now to see if they work as well as they are advertised.
It looks like this weekend will be a good time to do it because they are calling for rain here all weekend.
I plan on pulling my S&S H2LT lifters out and pulling them apart and taking a good peek inside them for debris since initial break in is complete.
Ray
[attach=0]
It's a shame you have to put a cover over something so beautiful
That's what I was thinkin on covering those gems.. Will they fit on the 144"? :)
Quote from: FSG on October 08, 2014, 03:29:58 PM
QuoteI plan on pulling my S&S H2LT lifters out and pulling them apart .......
Can you measure the thickness of the limiters when you have the lifters apart? I suspect that S&S put together their H2LT Lifters using matched thickness limiters. The set I disassembled all four had .116" limiters which surprised me, not because of the thickness but because all four were the same. TIA
I have 4 limiters I didn't install that are new. 3 are .115 one is .113
QuoteI have 4 limiters I didn't install that are new. 3 are .115 one is .113
crewchief25H I've never had a new bag of four with more than two that were the same size. :teeth:
(http://i.imgur.com/68NwfIw.png)
Should be some really strong rocker supports. That 7075 is much stronger than the 6061 commonly used.
Joel 2001 FLHT
I'm happy to see you back and reporting the latest, greatest addition to your addiction -hehe.
I check in at least twice a day, every day to see the progress. Your doing some truly outstanding "garage work" here.
Look forward to your next steps. Always learning! Buffalo
Ray, I also purchased a set of the same rocker supports. I know you are going to check them but the set I have are not wide enough to allow the rocker arms to fit. Opening is too small to accept the rocker arms. I have not had a chance to measure them yet but I tried with a set of stock, S&S, and also a set of Jim's. This could be a good thing allowing us to fit them with minimal clearance.
My only concern is where to remove the excess metal. I am not sure if the rocker supports are a treated material that removing material might remove some of the surface hardness. This being the case if it was heat treated or whatever. Same concerns on removing material off the rocker arms.
I am curious to see what your finding are, wondering if they will be the same.
I will be following to see what your results are.
Ron
Not Ray obviously but I purchased the same supports and found them too tight also. I figured I could do better on keeping the S&S rockers ends true than grinding on the supports so used valve grinding compound and a piece of glass to widdle down the rockers till I achieved what I believe was .003 end play(been a year and 1/2 ago). About 10k miles now and still working. I think I like the too tight idea that allows one to hone to fit.
I put the bike on the lift and pulled the rocker arm supports off and also took the S&S HL2T lifters out for inspection and a good cleaning.
The Vulcan rocker arm supports were tight fitting to both the Baisley and S&S roller rockers...so I have to love on the supports a little to get the rocker arms to move like I wanted. I can slip a .004 feeler gauge between the arm and the support sitting on the work bench now. I haven't mounted them back into the bike yet because I pulled all four of the S&S lifters apart.
FSG...three of my limiters measured 0.115 and one measured 0.114. I found no debris in the lifters. I cleaned the lifters real good and re-installed them and the lifter blocks and checked pin clearance to the lifters. All four were .004 with no witness marks on either pin.
Tomorrow after work I will install the rocker arm supports and adjust the p/rods...then check the gap on the rocker arms to the supports.
Ray
[attach=0]
Welcome back Ray. :hug:
Those Vulcan arm supports are beautiful. Great pics too.
I buttoned it all back up last night and fired it up...it sounded good.
I'll get it out and ride it today to get the lifters fully pumped up.
Now it's just waiting for Randy to get his 144" monster all buttoned up...and it's off to Strokerjlk's for a little fine tuning on both machines.
Ray
added later:
I almost forgot.
The Vulcan supports on the table had a .004" gap between the arms and the support once I loved on the supports a little. They had about .002 gap straight out of the box...too tight for my likings.
Once bolted down on the bike they had .006" gap on three arms to the supports and .007" on one. So they did spread a little once torqued down.
Quoteauthor=No Cents link=topic=64175.msg850620#msg850620 date=1412900456]
............
FSG...three of my limiters measured 0.115 and one measured 0.114. ...........
Ray
Checked the bag in my box this AM, 2=.113, 1=113.5, 1= .114
Mark
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on October 11, 2014, 08:51:13 AM
Quoteauthor=No Cents link=topic=64175.msg850620#msg850620 date=1412900456]
............
FSG...three of my limiters measured 0.115 and one measured 0.114. ...........
Ray
Checked the bag in my box this AM, 2=.113, 1=113.5, 1= .114
Mark
Ray, Mark, thanks. Looks like they are getting better with what they bag and minimum spread in a set of lifters is good to see,
yeah, just ignore my random decimals. :embarrassed:
I wasn't going to say anything Mark...but your 113.5" limiter might have been the biggest one yet from S&S. :hyst:
I knew what you meant :wink:
Ray
me too :wink: but that would have been an interesting spread in a set of premiums :hyst:
I've got a recently ordered set I'll check out Monday for the hell of it.
Rick
:up:
I must've been thinking about the exhaust pipes on pappy's flattie. :nix:
Quote from: rotten on October 09, 2014, 11:07:28 AM
Ray, I also purchased a set of the same rocker supports. I know you are going to check them but the set I have are not wide enough to allow the rocker arms to fit. Opening is too small to accept the rocker arms. I have not had a chance to measure them yet but I tried with a set of stock, S&S, and also a set of Jim's. This could be a good thing allowing us to fit them with minimal clearance.
My only concern is where to remove the excess metal. I am not sure if the rocker supports are a treated material that removing material might remove some of the surface hardness. This being the case if it was heat treated or whatever. Same concerns on removing material off the rocker arms.
I am curious to see what your finding are, wondering if they will be the same.
I will be following to see what your results are.
Ron
rotten...I called Vulcan and talked to them about removing material from the rocker arm supports. I didn't think they had any kind of treated hardening process done to them...but your post had me wondering if I did the correct thing by removing material from the support.
Vulcan confirmed to me that there is no hardening process done to the supports and they make them tight on purpose so you can fit your rocker arms to them. They stated they have seen a big variance in rocker arm lengths.
What I did is I took a 1" wide fine flat file to the supports once I clamped it down level in the vice. I used small pieces of card board between the support and the jaws of the vice so I didn't mar them. I decided to remove material from the non thrust side for each rocker arm support. I would slowly remove some material making sure the file stayed flat on the support while moving it slowly back and forth with even pressure applied at all times. Then I would take them into the house and clean them off with hot soapy dish water...then back out to the barn and hit them with the air compressor and trial fit the rocker arms in. I repeated this process over and over again until I got close to my desired .004" gap for each rocker arm to the support. I finished them off with a flat stone to get them smooth as a babies bottom and ended up with my final .004 gap.
Doing both supports this way took me around and hour each to get them where I wanted them. The timely part was having to make the trips back into the house to wash them off each time before trial fitting them. I didn't want any small pieces of filings touching the roller rockers during trial fitments.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on October 11, 2014, 04:36:03 PM
Vulcan confirmed to me that there is no hardening process done to the supports and they make them tight on purpose so you can fit your rocker arms to them. They stated they have seen a big variance in rocker arm lengths.
:scratch:
You don't harden 7075.. It is already hardened.. Good thing about aluminum after hardening is that you can still cut it..
Max
I didn't know that Max.
I know certain machined pieces sometimes go thru a hardening process after they are made...I was just making sure these rocker arm supports didn't fall into that category.
Ray
Quote from: Max Headflow on October 11, 2014, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 11, 2014, 04:36:03 PM
Vulcan confirmed to me that there is no hardening process done to the supports and they make them tight on purpose so you can fit your rocker arms to them. They stated they have seen a big variance in rocker arm lengths.
:scratch:
You don't harden 7075.. It is already hardened.. Good thing about aluminum after hardening is that you can still cut it..
Max
That stuff is really nice to machine compared to 6061.
Ron
Both machine very easy with the right cutters.
Quote from: rbabos on October 12, 2014, 07:59:13 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on October 11, 2014, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 11, 2014, 04:36:03 PM
Vulcan confirmed to me that there is no hardening process done to the supports and they make them tight on purpose so you can fit your rocker arms to them. They stated they have seen a big variance in rocker arm lengths.
:scratch:
You don't harden 7075.. It is already hardened.. Good thing about aluminum after hardening is that you can still cut it..
Max
That stuff is really nice to machine compared to 6061.
Ron
Quote from: No Cents on October 12, 2014, 03:04:15 AM
I didn't know that Max.
I know certain machined pieces sometimes go thru a hardening process after they are made...I was just making sure these rocker arm supports didn't fall into that category.
Ray
Generally the only stuff that gets post hardened are different steels as it can save on machine tool life.. Not sure about other metals tho.. Still, you can buy 4140 that is pre hardened and still machinable..
Max
So What No T-1,T-6, aging with 7075..... :nix:
Quote from: IRONMIKE113 on October 12, 2014, 04:30:15 PM
So What No T-1,T-6, aging with 7075..... :nix:
:scratch:
Sure,, Why not?
Max
T-1 and on are different methods of heat treating aluminum alloys and H-1 and on is strain hardening of alloys and W-1 and on is solution hardening. :up:
While we are on the subject, or off the subject I guess..
How can the cylinder heads undergo major welding without affecting the metals properties. I have heard the term used loosely that they are then "rehardened". The assumption is that they were heat or process treated in some way to begin with. These are investment castings I assume. What heat treatment, if any, are the heads cast aluminum subjected to before powder coat and that said how is the aftermarket welding up ports, remachining them, and claiming to "re-heat treat" without affecting the powder coating? I admit my only direct experience is with heat treatment of steels. :unsure:
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 13, 2014, 02:17:04 AM
While we are on the subject, or off the subject I guess..
How can the cylinder heads undergo major welding without affecting the metals properties. I have heard the term used loosely that they are then "rehardened". The assumption is that they were heat or process treated in some way to begin with. These are investment castings I assume. What heat treatment, if any, are the heads cast aluminum subjected to before powder coat and that said how is the aftermarket welding up ports, remachining them, and claiming to "re-heat treat" without affecting the powder coating? I admit my only direct experience is with heat treatment of steels. :unsure:
Any welding done on heads, there are two material zones. The original and the weld. The two never become one material but rather a mixture within the weld zone. Both would require different heat treatments :wink: and in the case of the head not practical or needed. Basically port welding is in the same area as applying bondo to a car then grinding it smooth with the exception the weld is a fusion bond rather then cohesion
Ron
Max I was just referring to your commenting about you Don't Harden 7075,it's already Hardened that's all........ :bf:
A little update on the bike. The Vulcan rocker arm supports must be doing their job because maybe it's just me...but the valve train seems to be even more quieter now that the lifters are totally pumped up again.
I put it up on the lift tonight and pulled the Barnett low profile clutch lock up off and yanked the gold 58lb springs and installed the green 82lb springs. The clutch lever pull is a little harder than with the gold springs...but I hope it will hold the power better when it rolls up on Jim's drum.
Eric...the old butt dyno is liking what I'm feeling so far. I did shift it at 4 grand a few times Sunday.
Daddy likes. :wink:
Ray
Nice :up:
Quote from: No Cents on October 13, 2014, 05:29:31 PM
A little update on the bike. The Vulcan rocker arm supports must be doing their job because maybe it's just me...but the valve train seems to be even more quieter now that the lifters are totally pumped up again.
I put it up on the lift tonight and pulled the Barnett low profile clutch lock up off and yanked the gold 58lb springs and installed the green 82lb springs. The clutch lever pull is a little harder than with the gold springs...but I hope it will hold the power better when it rolls up on Jim's drum.
Eric...the old butt dyno is liking what I'm feeling so far. I did shift it at 4 grand a few times Sunday.
Daddy likes. :wink:
Ray
:teeth: :up: :up:
Keep E'm coming Ray great updates 😃
Ray,
Thanks again for that info on your clutch. Be waiting until you get back from your tuning session to see how it held up. We are just waiting to fire that R&R 124 until we get a good clutch. Barnett is no problem for us to aquire, we may throw the stocker back in with an extra plate to do the heat cycles and break in, Once we have a good clutch it's off to Doc Weavers dyno :teeth:.
Quote from: Eglider05 on October 11, 2014, 04:28:09 PM
I've got a recently ordered set I'll check out Monday for the hell of it.
Rick
I have a bag here just recently ordered. 2@.115, 1@.116 and 1@.118.
Rick
I've got a little project to do while I'm waiting on Randy to get his 144 buttoned up before heading to Jim's.
I bought these Strong Arm inner fairing brackets because my stock pot metal ones broke this past summer and I did a band aid fix to them. My CD player has seemed to skip after my tempo fix when I hit a good bump in the road. Hopefully these brackets will cure the skipping. I sent the radio/CD player back to Iron Cross Audio to check it out...and the radio/CD player is good. So my guess would be the stronger brackets are needed...especially with the extra stress and vibration this 124 creates.
While I have the fairing off I figured it is a good time to yank the factory ambient air temperature gauge out and replace it with the matching HD oil temperature gauge instead. I like the idea of being able to monitor the oil temperature at a glance of the gauge being on the dash.
I'll post a picture of these Strong Arm inner fairing brackets for you guys. They look way beefier.
Ray
[attach=0]
They look great,I have replaced a few those metal one's in one particular bike...... :wink:
What do they weigh ... Ray ?
Lighter than your others ?
Ray the buddy that used these, and recommended them said they also absorb vibrations better, hence they don't fracture like the metal once ones do. I may have a broken mount too, I need to take a look soon.
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 19, 2014, 05:06:24 AM
What do they weigh ... Ray ?
Lighter than your others ?
I don't know what the factory brackets weigh yet Jim...but these Strong Arm brackets weigh in @ .936 of a pound apiece.
Ray
[attach=0]
I was wandering what was going over there in the barn, since i have not seen or heard from you in a few days :pop:
I've been working...and waiting to hear your progress.
I twisted my damn ankle @ work Friday and couldn't even walk on it by the time I got home. I hobbled around all day at work yesterday...I couldn't pass up the OT.
It's much better today. I've been doing the chores around the house, weed eating, cutting the grass, cleaning out the gutters, blowing the leaves...you know the honey do list crap.
I got to keep her happy...if I want to take a ride on the bike this afternoon. :wink:
Ray
I think he's tellin the truth Randy, when I got there today, Ray was sneaking out the bedroom window, to come out and play! :teeth:
:hyst:
Brian...no bedroom action here lately.
My birthday is in February and Christmas isn't for a few months.
It's down to twice a year now Brian...if I need it or not. :banghead:
I rode the bike over to Randy's after you left. He told me I should have brought you by to check out his new big block. :doh: I didn't even think of it while you were here. He's like two minutes down the road from my house.
I did do my 1st wheelie since doing the compression bump...and it was by accident. Randy said to shift it @ 4 grand when I left his house...so dummy me did. 4 grand shifting into 2nd gear lifts the front tire nicely. :kick:
Ray
aahhgg, I wanted to go see it too!!! :emsad:
sorry...we got rambling away and I should of asked...but it slipped my mind :bf:
how did you like the sound of the newest face lift on the old Duracell?
Kind of almost sounds like a stock 103... :hyst:
Ray
Yeah, those 255 cams have a nice sound to them.... :teeth:
I think those CR650 cams will make a big difference once everything is dialed back in. That Burns pipe sounds different in person, than recorded. Has a nice deep tone. :up:
it doesn't sound too awfully bad for a barn built pipe. It definitely sounds different in person vs the video's of it. I think the video's don't due it justice. I agree with you...it has a nice deep tone to it. The older it gets...the better it sounds if you ask me.
Those 255 cams on them there stilts kinda puts a little more thumpity thump into it too. :bike:
all kidding aside...I'm anxious to see how the engine does now with the added compression done to it and what the pipe was originally designed for.
I can tell you one thing is for sure...the bike has a feel to it like it has never had to date. I can tell it just wants to get up and go. It's got a more aggressive feel at every rpm level I've had it at. I still haven't had it over 4000 rpm's yet. I'm going to wait until it's tuned before ripping harder on it. I can honestly say that it has scared me a few times at a couple of 4K shifts. It's locked and loaded...even without being tuned.
The tune will probably put it over the top for me...and make me one happy guy. :wink:
If your not busy sometime this week Brian...stop back over and we will go over to Randy's. He has definitely got some eye candy over in his garage that's worth seeing 1st hand.
Ray
The sound note of a Burns pipe is a head turner for sure. And a bonus for those wanting most out of their $. There are several aftermarket production pipes out there that will cater to the bigger build people and make them happy.
Don't go spending money on something that is not needed at high rpms.
Ray your build is awesome. Major props to you. I can't wait to do my 124
Quote from: No Cents on October 19, 2014, 06:38:09 PM
it doesn't sound too awfully bad for a barn built pipe. It definitely sounds different in person vs the video's of it. I think the video's don't due it justice. I agree with you...it has a nice deep tone to it. The older it gets...the better it sounds if you ask me.
Those 255 cams on them there stilts kinda puts a little more thumpity thump into it too. :bike:
all kidding aside...I'm anxious to see how the engine does now with the added compression done to it and what the pipe was originally designed for.
I can tell you one thing is for sure...the bike has a feel to it like it has never had to date. I can tell it just wants to get up and go. It's got a more aggressive feel at every rpm level I've had it at. I still haven't had it over 4000 rpm's yet. I'm going to wait until it's tuned before ripping harder on it. I can honestly say that it has scared me a few times at a couple of 4K shifts. It's locked and loaded...even without being tuned.
The tune will probably put it over the top for me...and make me one happy guy. :wink:
If your not busy sometime this week Brian...stop back over and we will go over to Randy's. He has definitely got some eye candy over in his garage that's worth seeing 1st hand.
Ray
Sounds good, let me get with you near the end of the week, see what you're doing.
Jim...here you go.
The stock bracket weighed in at 1.166 lbs...which is more than the Strong Arm brackets @ .936 lbs.
The Strong Arm bracket was weighed with the mounting bolts and the stock bracket was the bracket alone with no mounting bolts.
Ray
[attach=0]
Quote from: No Cents on October 25, 2014, 04:58:44 PM
Jim...here you go.
The stock bracket weighed in at 1.166 lbs...which is more than the Strong Arm brackets @ .936 lbs.
The Strong Arm bracket was weighed with the mounting bolts and the stock bracket was the bracket alone with no mounting bolts.
Ray
[attach=0]
Every little bit helps . :scoot:
I also changed the ambient air temperature gauge out for the matching silver HD oil temperature gauge while the bike was up on the lift.
For those that might do this gauge swap...it calls for disconnecting the 107 connector that the air temperature gauge is plugged in to.
I had a hell of a time finding it. The instructions didn't show or tell where that 107 connector was.
It is mounted on the frame by the neck of the bike on the primary side. The 107 connector is eliminated and the wire that was plugged into it gets plugged into one end of the oil temperature gauges wiring harness.
Ray
I finally got my end cap made for my Burns pipe after trying for almost a year.
Ray
[attach=0]
Looking at the design and from listening to similar end caps I'll bet the sound is more distinct for each power stroke. :up: :up:
So how does that attach to the meg and how do you expect it to effect your performance?
Thumper...I don't know what it will do to the tq/hp curve. I'm hoping to see more of both earlier...but this is an experiment and mostly trial and error. I got my fingers crossed on the outcome.
I will slide the end cap into the pipe and position it so the three mounting tabs are to my liking. Then I will mark the pipe so it's in the center of one of the mounting tabs. I'll pull the end cap back out...drill thru the side of the pipe and re-install the end cap back in. I'll mark the center of the hole I just drilled thru the side of the pipe onto the end cap mounting tab...then pull it back out and drill it and tap it out for a button head allen bolt.
I'll re-install the end cap and put the 1st bolt in...then I'll repeat the procedure for the other two tabs for the bolts.
Ray
Ray what is the diameter of the center hole?
here you go Eric. This is what it was made from.
The center hole is 1.850"...with and addition .250" gap in between the mounting tabs.
[attach=0]
Ray
added later:
I got it drilled and tapped out tonight and mounted.
Randy stopped over and liked the sound of it better with the end cap. I'm prepping it for high temp heat paint right now.
I guess when the bike rolls up on Jim's drum...we will find out if it helps or not.
high temp paint applied.
[attach=0]
Ray
Silly question but did you test fit it before painting?
yes :wink:
Ray
How's chances on a little sound clip when you put it back in? :teeth: :fish:
Quote from: kd on October 27, 2014, 06:08:56 PM
How's chances on a little sound clip when you put it back in? :teeth: :fish:
kd....I'll make a video of it without the end cap...then pause it...then install the end cap and re-start the video for a comparison on sound.
It does sound different with the end cap installed. It took some of the deepness tone away from the pipe.
My buddy Randy (groundhog144) likes it better with the end cap installed.
I think his words were..."it sounds more like a big block". :nix:
Ray
That'd be great Ray. The sound change you described is exactly what I suspected from stuff I have done. I figured it would be "crisper" sounding, especially with the compression bump. I'm looking forward to hearing the comparison. :up:
no more noise
no more noise
Nice job Ray. I know the whole purpose will be to see what it does for the power band, but I like the sound of the pipe without it.
It definitely has a much cleaner / deeper sound in person than by recording. :up:
My phone does not do a good job of capturing the true sound of the pipe...that's for sure. :banghead:
I'm hoping that opening up the center hole another .250" will give it what I'm looking for.
Ray
QuoteI came back from my short ride and decided to pull the end cap back off and have the center hole opened up a touch more.
I stripped the paint back off it and I measured the opening of the center hole. I wanted it 1.850"...but it measures 1.840". :nix:
I'm going to have it opened up to 2.100" and re-install it and see if I like it better.
Ray
Ray, I really like your intuitive way of thinking about this and making decisions.
-Tutt
Im sure my 10 year old computer speakers arnt doing it justice either. It does sounds like it hits hard fast.
Ray your bike is bad ass and looks awesome but red takes away from the pipe leave it natural machine finish .it will flow with the look of the pipe .jmo youdid such a nice job with the pipe .the red cap just dont flow well with the look.
:agree: with you Paul.
I was trying to match the color of the pin striping the bike has with the end cap. It was close...but not dead on.
The natural aluminum does look better to me installed in the pipe.
Ray
Working from the phone recording it is obvious that the sound has changed significantly. It snarls now instead of roaring (if you know what I mean). The big block sound is going away. It seems to have changed a lot.
I suspect the radius on the exit end of the Burns baffle dumps a lot of air to the outside of the muffler interior at the tip. That would cause more exhaust gas at the outside inner diameter than a conventional end cut baffle. :nix: With the square cut of the end cap in the outer ring and the taper of the mouth of the Burns meg it likely forces even more air through there. In the early 70's there was a company (I don't remember who) that was making megaphones that had the same tone effect on everything we put them on. I don't remember what they had in them though.
In my minimal experience, opening the core will likely lower the tone a bit and take some of the crack out of the exhaust note or soften it. It seems to have a whistle (sound of air rushing) to it now too. I guess that's why you are opening the center a bit. :teeth: If I could suggest something to try, it would be to steel wool the 3 - .250 perimeter vents around the circumference and see how or if it changes. If the whistle, if that's even what I think I'm hearing, goes away, it may be interesting to open those slots up a bit too and let that air out.
I wish I could hear it in real life. I know Ohio has and if it is deeper than the recording it must be awesome. From the sound of your comment about responsiveness on your test ride it appears to be working. In what rpm ranges remains to be seen I guess. I'm also with you on the need "more sound" thing but I guess we are not all listening to our radios :wink:. :up: :up:
Nocents, pipe sounds great both ways. With, it sounds like a NA Porsche, without, American muscle.
Really looking forward to the next iteration.
Any chance you'll be making these for sale?
Quote from: build it on October 28, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
Nocents, pipe sounds great both ways. With, it sounds like a NA Porsche, without, American muscle.
Really looking forward to the next iteration.
Any chance you'll be making these for sale?
Good description build it.
I plan on taking the end cap to Don's Cycle tomorrow and see if his lathe will be big enough to chuck it up. If it is...I'll open up the center hole and give it another test.
I know what I'm looking for as far as the sound goes...but I'm not wanting to lose what I can feel it gained off idle pulling up through the gears. It feels like it helped a lot with making power sooner...it's almost instant on the twist of the grip. It is an improvement that can be felt...even on the un-tuned bike. I think it needs to flow just a tad bit more and hopefully pick back up a little more of the older sound...kind of a happy medium of where it was before and where it's at right now.
Ray
:wtf: :pop:
Ray when are you going to tune that beast we want sheets to drool over
Quote from: groundhog144 on October 28, 2014, 07:10:51 PM
:wtf: :pop:
I'm trying to get both barrels out [attach=0] :hyst:
Ray
Sham Rock...I'm waiting on groundhog144 to get his monster buttoned up so we can drop them off at Jim's at the same time.
Quote from: No Cents on October 28, 2014, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: groundhog144 on October 28, 2014, 07:10:51 PM
:wtf: :pop:
I'm trying to get both barrels out [attach=0] :hyst:
Ray
Sham Rock...I'm waiting on groundhog144 to get his monster buttoned up so we can drop them off at Jim's at the same time.
Jim, get the bunkhouse ready, I'm staying that weekend :pop:
Hay Ray, I think it sounds good with the cap as long as that whistle sound is just in the phone audio.
If you want to experiment more I'd try to make something similar to what a thunderheader has at the end of the muffler. Install it over the end of your tail pipe about 1", about 1" diameter bigger, 6" long and taper down to about 2.25"-2.5".
version II was done to the end cap today. The center hole was opened up from 1.840" to 2.100".
I installed it and took it for a little longer ride today than yesterdays 1st version end cap ride. The bike is still a lot quieter at idle and cruising speeds. I say it's still close to 50% quieter than the non end capped muffler. The throttle response didn't seem to change any from yesterdays version.
I seem to be making progress with it. I might pull it off again and take another .250" out of the center hole and see how it does.
I did make another video of it with the version II end cap if anyone is interested in hearing it. :nix:
Ray
Post it up Ray :chop:
Ray,
You can send it to me if you aren't going to post it. I'm real interested in following your progress. BTW did you try some steel wool in the perimeter as a sound deadening test or did the enlarged hole pass more exhaust and silence the whistle sound I said I thought I heard.
no more noise
Ray - If you've got a smart phone there are several free apps that provide a dB meter. Would be an easy way to see the actual difference in the sound level with and without the end cap.
Zach
I changed my mind back to no end cap,loud pipe saves lives :scoot:
I don't care what you do to it, that bike sounds pissed. :up:
Mark
Quote from: groundhog144 on October 29, 2014, 04:25:43 PM
I changed my mind back to no end cap,loud pipe saves lives :scoot:
:doh:
strokerjlk will make the final decision on the end cap or no end cap after he spins it on the drum. :potstir:
Version 3 will probably be a little more louder than this version is. I've decided to open it up to 2.400" on the center hole and give that a whirl.
Mark...it's just a little tame kitty cat :wink:
Ray
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on October 29, 2014, 04:26:00 PM
I don't care what you do to it, that bike sounds pissed. :up:
Mark
I'm going with his vote Pissed.......... :agree:
I'll start out by saying I don't want you to think I dislike the new sound. On the version 2 video there is a perceived minor difference in sound but we're at a disadvantage listening to a recording rather than the real thing. My laptop is a gaming laptop though, so the sound is still decent.
I can still hear that funky hollow whistle (for lack of a better description). Do you hear it in real time like the sound track (or do you hear it at all). I know my ears are shot and ring from 37 years of abuse and the OL says stuff to me I never hear. :hyst: I again want to say that I don't think the new sound is a bad thing, but I sense you would like the "American Muscle" sound back and keep the seat of the pants performance increase you felt. Maybe the sound wave is reflecting harder back up the pipe now and improving the torque :nix: and you are on the right track. Jim's dyno will tell you that.
The original tone is so hard to beat. I like it better than the Guppy pipes I have heard recordings of, even though they are very similar in construction. Guppy's are usually a tad shorter and that may be why. I'll bet the new capped higher tone or pitch will break ear drums and set off car alarms when you get on it and are in the top revs. :dgust:
Ray I'd just let Jim do his thing and go from there,and the sound will be the sound it is,you know what I did with my HO pipe,it is what it is sound and all........ :wink:
I think Lenght will be the key! JMO
Quote from: IRONMIKE113 on October 29, 2014, 05:18:17 PM
Ray I'd just let Jim do his thing and go from there,and the sound will be the sound it is,you know what I did with my HO pipe,it is what it is sound and all........ :wink:
I agree. It's all about performance and the sound will be different just like many other systems. :up:
Cool stuff Ray. It will be interesting to see how you tune your pipe out. My first experience with a semi custom exhaust was years ago with Fiac. They sent me three different muff body lengths and two diff sized venturi Id inserts that bolted in 3" from the exit. Figuring the best configuration for a build is very satisfying.
:agree: gordon...I enjoy doing things like this. It keeps me out of trouble :hyst:
Mike...one more final cut on the end cap tomorrow and I'll see how it does. I feel I'm headed in the right direction and I'm making progress with it.
I figured in the beginning that the center hole was going to be too small. I knew I could test it and I could always have smaller amounts of material removed...then re-test. I knew I couldn't add any more material back on if I needed more...that's why I started with the smaller 1.850" center hole.
What ever I end up with tomorrow after enlarging the center hole one more time...it will be going back to Jim's that way. I'm done tinkering with it. I think it's going to be close to accomplishing my goal that I set out for...once I made my mind up to attempt this experiment. I know it feels better by the butt dyno...but the truth will be told on the drum.
After tomorrows test ride on version 3...it will be left all in the hands of Jim. Then he can do his thing and find out if I wasted my time and money with this end cap project...or if it's going to be a keeper.
Ray
Quote from: groundhog144 on October 29, 2014, 04:25:43 PM
I changed my mind back to no end cap,loud pipe saves lives :scoot:
:up: Sound good too! :teeth:
Quote from: gordonr on October 29, 2014, 05:36:34 PM
Cool stuff Ray. It will be interesting to see how you tune your pipe out. My first experience with a semi custom exhaust was years ago with Fiac. They sent me three different muff body lengths and two diff sized venturi Id inserts that bolted in 3" from the exit. Figuring the best configuration for a build is very satisfying.
If you ever get your hands on a FIAC pipe for a bagger, I am interested .
Can't remember his name . But I spoke to him once . He was driving a limo . or owns a limo service now . Or something like that ( its been 5-6 years ago ). anyway He couldn't be coaxed to make me a pipe . :banghead:
I have only tuned one .( Softail model on a 95 hemi motor.)
Nice pipe . Do you have any data on the pipe at speed ?
I have always wondered what happened to the state of tune at road speeds .( does it lean out much)
Quote from: strokerjlk on October 29, 2014, 07:46:35 PM
Quote from: gordonr on October 29, 2014, 05:36:34 PM
Cool stuff Ray. It will be interesting to see how you tune your pipe out. My first experience with a semi custom exhaust was years ago with Fiac. They sent me three different muff body lengths and two diff sized venturi Id inserts that bolted in 3" from the exit. Figuring the best configuration for a build is very satisfying.
If you ever get your hands on a FIAC pipe for a bagger, I am interested .
Can't remember his name . But I spoke to him once . He was driving a limo . or owns a limo service now . Or something like that ( its been 5-6 years ago ). anyway He couldn't be coaxed to make me a pipe . :banghead:
I have only tuned one .( Softail model on a 95 hemi motor.)
Nice pipe . Do you have any data on the pipe at speed ?
I have always wondered what happened to the state of tune at road speeds .( does it lean out much)
The actual maker of those pipes is "CustomCraft" www.customcraftheaders.com (http://www.customcraftheaders.com). Jeffs site was or is www.faic.cc (http://www.faic.cc). Jim, sending you a pm.
Ray, I love the pipe and the original sound. Have you ever thought of getting the end cap where you want it for torque and hp for the race track and then take it off for everyday riding for the growl that you and so many of us love. You then have the best of both worlds. JMO
PS. I love how you go about working on your bike and share with the rest of us dreamers.
Definitely hear a difference in the volume, but off throttle sounds like a turbo spooling down or blowing off the boost valve. Or maybe a Jake brake!!
Sorry to sound so negative, but it just sounds weird to me.
I built a 5" long extension for a Pro pipe several years ago. Main purpose was to get the sound out from under the saddlebag and behind the bike. I added a small 3/4" deep baffle inside the exit side with a 2 3/4" exit hole. I used the original 2 1/2 baffle from V&H inside rear and packing from a Dyna muffler for both.
Not only did it reduce the sound for touring substantially, it still has a serious growl when standing on it! Tests showed between stock V&H baffle system and my setup, it actually gained 2.4 hp and 2 ft/lbs of torque! Very easy on the ears while putting, still has a good strong idle sound. A win, win in my book. I have not been stopped or checked for sound since the install in 07. The stock V&H, even when new, set off car alarms while putting thru streets, this does not do that. fwiw Buffalo
I had the center hole in the end cap opened up from 2.100" to 2.400" today and I installed it when I got home.
This was by far the best sounding of the three versions to me so far. I took it out for a ride and the bike at cruising speeds is around 25% quieter and about the same percentage quieter at idle vs the open muffler. It has a more deeper raspier sound to it now than the 1st two versions...with most of the whistling sound kd was talking about hearing almost eliminated.
It will be up to Jim now to find out if it actually works of not.
Ray
no more noise
Ray, I'm only going by the quality of the microphone in the videos, but that is the best sounding one of the "end cap" series by far. Regards, :up: -Tutt
Quote from: CowboyTutt on October 30, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
Ray, I'm only going by the quality of the microphone in the videos, but that is the best sounding one of the "end cap" series by far. Regards, :up: -Tutt
:up:
Ray that sounds wicked pissa.Thats the one right there.Nice job and Looks better too with the paint gone.Good luck at the tuners.Hope all turns out well for you.
That sounds much better, badass in fact. I like the natural finish better than the orange too.
Rick
:hyst:
I just came in from the barn and read this.
I was out there painting the end cap orange again because I was happy with the way it turned out in version 3 in the sound and butt dyno performance. :doh:
I'll run it a few days like that and see if it grows on me...but it will more than likely get the paint stripped off it again and ran in it's natural state.
Ray
Ray,
I just got in and checked my favorite thread to find version 3 sound track. Like you, I find this version to be cleaner and deeper. It seems the larger hole is letting out some more of the flow and is removing the sound of the air rushing past the cap. I'm guessing that you may have found it too restrictive on the top end at the next tune but not so much now. What is important is how you feel and what effect it has on the performance increase you felt was there or are looking for. I know that if it was me, I would be wondering if the small port was better and now you won't know because you let us talk you into fooling with it. :embarrassed: Too bad there wasn't a known formula to work from to ensure the flow is enough. (there probably is, right Max?) Actually, the Burns' program may deal with this stuff too or they may know something from their testing.
Because you have the cap, and if you wanted to, you could probably trace out some thin tin plates from the cap, with longer tabs where the 3 spacer tabs are that could fold around the 3 outer slots if placed on the end cap, cut them out with snips and just hole saw the old sizes you enlarged from into the centers. When you are on the drum install the different (previous size) hole templates and check for differences. Maybe 1 pull each and then lay the graphs on each other and look for a trend. :nix: You won't have that nice taper up to the hole that is machined into the cap (hopefully that won't cause bad turbulence) but it may be helpful in understanding the effect this cap is producing on flow and when it peaks in the power that you are hoping to improve. There have been threads with tuners drilling different size holes in the end caps on super traps that were drilled in graduations with a positive effect until it went the other way so it probably applies here.
All in all it's a GREAT effort so far and I figure you will have some sort of success or understanding that will at least be useful as a No Cents pipe tuning option (when faced with different heads, cams or throttle body combinations). When do you go see Jim?
kd...I'm pretty much happy with the end cap where it's at now. It has some of that American muscle sound back and it has a nice throaty raspy growl to it now when you twist the wick on it. The whistling sound we were hearing before...is gone.
We will be making the trip to Jim's when Randy get's his bike ready to go. He is still in limbo on the exhaust and throttle body.
If we are lucky... Randy will have everything he needs in the next few weeks...and hopefully Jim has some open slots so he can fit us in.
Ray
Good news. :up: Well you best get rested up for your trip to Mattoon. You've earned it. You'll have lots of barn time soon, if your weather is changing as fast as ours. The long range is colder too.
It snowed here today and the wind is howling like a banshee. This weekend will be some sun and highs of + 4 & 5 C with 8* on Monday but some rain. (Monday I leave for Las Vegas to take in the SEMA show with a couple of buddies for a week. :koolaid: Should be warmer there.) I expect your weather should be marginally better than mine too. I don't know about you but I'm going to get some short trip rides in before the snow hits and stays.
I guess we'll all have to wait a while for our next fix. On the up side we'll get to see how Randy's 143 turns on too.
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
:hyst:
I just came in from the barn and read this.
I was out there painting the end cap orange again
Ray
:oops: :teeth:
that's a man that knows how to blip a FBW bike :scoot: I just watched all three for the first time, with good speakers .
I like no cap and version #3
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 03:18:05 PM
version 3 video...if anyone one is interested.
http://youtu.be/WvWoBWbgOVc (http://youtu.be/WvWoBWbgOVc)
Ray
WOW Very Nice........from this :scoot:
to THIS :chop:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
It will be up to Jim now to find out if it actually works of not.
Ray
I think first you must define what "works" means here.. Or is the another case where you really don't know what you want? :scratch:
Max
Start with what you have now and make a series of sleeves from the correct size tubing and try each as a reducing bush with Jim to see if there is any worth while performance changes.
Quote from: Max Headflow on October 30, 2014, 09:46:27 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
It will be up to Jim now to find out if it actually works of not.
Ray
I think first you must define what "works" means here.. Or is the another case where you really don't know what you want? :scratch:
Max
what works mean in this case is:
moving the torque curve a small amount to the left.
and yes Max...I have no clue what I want...please tell me what I'm looking for. :doh:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on October 31, 2014, 02:57:17 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on October 30, 2014, 09:46:27 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
It will be up to Jim now to find out if it actually works of not.
Ray
I think first you must define what "works" means here.. Or is the another case where you really don't know what you want? :scratch:
Max
what works mean in this case is:
moving the torque curve a small amount to the left.
and yes Max...I have no clue what I want...please tell me what I'm looking for. :doh:
Ray
Thanks.. I missed what your intentions were.. For instance it might have been that you tired of the noise. or a broader power band? :scratch:
Max
I thought it was noise also.
Today new set up un tuned and making adjustments made on sound .. failed to see the power shift being wanted. :nix:
:unsure:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on October 31, 2014, 05:40:20 AM
I thought it was noise also.
Today new set up un tuned and making adjustments made on sound .. failed to see the power shift being wanted. :nix:
Steve...I'm not going on sound. I would ride the bike at every change I made to the end cap to see if I could feel any difference. I could each time...so I knew I was making the changes in the right direction towards my goal. Sorry...if it's just noise to you. I promise there will never be a video posted of my bike again on this...or any other forum.
I personally don't have the luxury to roll my bike up on a dyno to see if the changes I make will show a little gain or lose...but when you can actually feel the bike respond sooner...I feel it's a positive thing...and it should show an improvement once it does have the chance to finally roll up on the dyno.
As far as your comment Jason being good or bad...I thought you sent me a pm stating you wouldn't post in this thread anymore and you asked me to do the same for you.
I kept my end of the bargain.
Ray
Well being that you have always sought out the performance of the engine. And its not tuned, ( maybe the item is only bring the tune into a better range), I fail to see how changes to the exhaust can be verified without a tune to be factual . Its not like you are new to this.
As for your videos I do not care if you add more or not. I think the item you built is a good idea . I hope that it produces the gains you want ( whatever/ wherever that may be) once done.. BTW I am not the only one that thought it was noise.
the noise is removed.
Ray
:argue:
:smiled:
Yep...you can take that statement to the bank.
"all bets are off" :angry:
Ray
im french canadian but from what i read in ray post i never think he made this just for sound
for me its just like i do with my supermeg play with disc and different cap to move the power where i want first and sound second
Quote from: No Cents on October 30, 2014, 06:19:54 PM
kd...I'm pretty much happy with the end cap where it's at now. It has some of that American muscle sound back and it has a nice throaty raspy growl to it now when you twist the wick on it. The whistling sound we were hearing before...is gone.
We will be making the trip to Jim's when Randy get's his bike ready to go. He is still in limbo on the exhaust and throttle body.
If we are lucky... Randy will have everything he needs in the next few weeks...and hopefully Jim has some open slots so he can fit us in.
Ray
Ray
I will provide a map for the end cap and another map for without the end cap.
That way you can switch back and forth .
You might be able to sneak up on that 144 er and overtake him ..if ... Your very very quioet
Speaking of that 144"/143"? Is that one up, running and waiting for Jim too?
Jim...no need for two maps. I just wanted to see if this end cap moves the tq curve any to the left and let's it pull out on top without affecting it up there. If it does...I'll keep it on...if it doesn't...I have a good paper weight.
This was an experiment I was trying that I should not of posted anything about it. I was riding the bike each time I made a change to it and seeing how the bike responded to the change. Each time I made a change it did give me feedback that I could feel in the throttle. I knew what I was after and I think I accomplished what I set out for. The sound of the pipe was never in the equation. Where ever it ended up at as far as sound goes...is what it was. Which in apparently many of the members ears...it was just noise.
I'm learning slowly the hard way that I shouldn't be posting things I'm experimenting with and just keep them things to myself.
I think I have it thru my thick head now.
Keep my mouth shut and my fingers off the key board with what I'm in to.
Rob...Randy is still waiting on an exhaust and throttle body for his engine.
Ray
I understand ray .
I appologize . I shouldn't have posted in your thread .
no Jim your fine...and your always welcome to post in any thread I ever started.
I'm the one that is sorry...and will quit posting my projects.
Ray
Damn! It isn't even snowing out yet.. If this were January I would understand.. :hug:
PM sent
exhaust make sound
lifter cam compensator make noise :slap:
Ray, I check your thread everyday. I like to see what you have been up to. I think I speak for most of us. Keep doing what you have been doing! We appreciate it and we have your back! :up:
129623 view
Quote from: rob71458 on October 31, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
Ray, I check your thread everyday. I like to see what you have been up to. I think I speak for most of us. Keep doing what you have been doing! We appreciate it and we have your back! :up:
thank you :up:
Ray
Ray Ray Ray, damit man, everybody here loves and appreciates what what U have done on this thread! Some make comments that even offend me :chop: but are really only comments to help. I dream of doing to my bagger about half of what U are doing to yours. Don't let little "Potty mouth" like that derail ya :sheep: keep up the good work :hug:
Ray, I check your thread everyday. I like to see what you have been up to. I think I speak for most of us. Keep doing what you have been doing! We appreciate it and we have your back! :up:
+1 :up:
Quote from: rob71458 on October 31, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
Ray, I check your thread everyday. I like to see what you have been up to. I think I speak for most of us. Keep doing what you have been doing! We appreciate it and we have your back! :up:
:beer: :up:
Its a sad day when people start ganging up on Ray who has done so much to help the technical expertise of this forum which is what its supposed to be about. Too many haters here. -Tutt
thanks men. :up:
I appreciate the support and I will try to stay on track with what I'm doing. I know everyone has their own opinions on things...and they should have.
I'm trying to do things to my bike that makes me feel good about it...and I've been asked about certain things I've made on it. It gives me great pride to look back at them and say...I made that myself.
As most of you know by now...I'm very passionate about certain things I do.
My problem is I get so involved with what I'm doing that I eagerly post up what I'm doing without thinking about it or knowing the outcome of what I'm working on. I just get an idea in my head...and I run with it.
I need to stop doing that so freely and wait until I'm done with a project and maybe then show what I did. I've never been ashamed of showing something I was attempting to do and it not work. I figured who ever was reading what I was posting was along for the ride and they could learn with me as I moved forward...even if it goes three steps backwards first.
I have sadly learned today that not everybody is here to just learn and help one another and share findings about our bikes. It seems there are a few people that no matter what you do...they are just here to pick it apart. I've always wanted to be a person to help someone...instead of tearing them down.
There...I said my piece...now I need a cold beer!
Ray
:beer: ill take one with you ray
I guess I haven't followed this thread as closely as others, probably
because if I'm off line for a day or two the thread just grows! All the testing and fabricating
will save others time and money, so cudos to you Ray!l It's your thread and if others
don't like it, why are they following it? Looking forward to your and the Groundhog's results!
Ray, I for one look at your post first everyday when I log on. You do what some of us like to do, try and improve on performance not depending on others and cookie cutter packages. You prove them up by trial and error and seat of the pants feel. I love it and would be supper bummed if you quit. As far as sound goes with the pipe, it's just a great big bonus if the sound is better and the torque curve is where you would like it to be. No doubt there is a fine line between restriction of exhaust flow, sound, and having the power band where it works the best for intended purposes. Keep them coming buddy and fuck all the rest!
I wish I had the money to own and be schooled on how to use a dyno for testing and tuning purposes. It's a great tool to have.
I'm forced to try to make changes that I can only feel the results and hoping they are for the better...then haul my bike to a competent tuner like strokerjlk and see if it works better than what I had previous.
It would be nice if someone like Jim was next door or just down the street...but that's not the case for me. I don't know of a good tuner close to me in SW Ohio. So it becomes very expensive for me to try to make even the most settle changes that can affect the performance and tune of my bike.
There are so many things I would like to try but having to travel a great distance for proof of what I want to do and see the results would become too expensive.
I have to say that I envy all these independent shop owners and tuners that have the ability and access to their own dyno. I would be going non stop experimenting with different things to see how they performed.
Ray
Where are you located at Ray?
Ray, if you had your own dyno, you probably would have blown that motor to pieces by now! It would have 10,000 miles of dyno time on it for every 2000 miles of riding. But man, those would be awesome 2000 miles!
Ray
With the changes that you like to do , A PV tuner would be a great investment. You have the other tuner to draw a great base map( pro tuner right?) out so you are way ahead in that area as well. Then Once you get it as close as you can just tweak the map if needed on a dyno.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on November 01, 2014, 09:06:57 AM
Ray
With the changes that you like to do , A PV tuner would be a great investment. You have the other tuner to draw a great base map( pro tuner right?) out so you are way ahead in that area as well. Then Once you get it as close as you can just tweak the map if needed on a dyno.
I agree on the PV. Adds a whole new element of fun or frustration, depending on how anal one gets.
Ron
Quote from: harleytuner on November 01, 2014, 08:26:09 AM
Where are you located at Ray?
sw corner of Ohio...a little town called Harrison.
No Steve...I've got the old black box TTS.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on November 01, 2014, 08:26:09 AM
Where are you located at Ray?
sw corner of Ohio...a little town called Harrison.
No Steve...I've got the old black box TTS.
Ray
A little far from me (8:45) but i'll throw you an open invite to play on my dyno if you ever get this way. (Fredericksburg, Va.)
thanks Chad!
How's the new shop coming along? Best wishes for success!
I follow your shop on facebook...and I really like your employee of the month. :wink:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 10:45:54 AM
thanks Chad!
How's the new shop coming along? Best wishes for success!
I follow your shop on facebook...and I really like your employee of the month. :wink:
Ray
It's coming Ray, a little slower than I expected. I got held up quit a bit with zoning and city inspections, but all that is good now. Just need some work coming in the shop but that will come. Thanks for the best wishes and my employee of the month is very dedicated, but also very demanding. You know what they say about good help though :nix:
Eglider05 and digga25...I have to admit...both you guys were right.
I re-installed the painted end cap and was out in the barn doing a few things for about an hour and I'd keep glancing over at that orange end cap.
It sure didn't grow on me like I thought it would...it had to be stripped again.
Here is the final look for it. It will stay un-finished in it's natural state.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 07:56:16 AM
I wish I had the money to own and be schooled on how to use a dyno for testing and tuning purposes. It's a great tool to have.
I'm forced to try to make changes that I can only feel the results and hoping they are for the better...then haul my bike to a competent tuner like strokerjlk and see if it works better than what I had previous.
It would be nice if someone like Jim was next door or just down the street...but that's not the case for me. I don't know of a good tuner close to me in SW Ohio. So it becomes very expensive for me to try to make even the most settle changes that can affect the performance and tune of my bike.
There are so many things I would like to try but having to travel a great distance for proof of what I want to do and see the results would become too expensive.
I have to say that I envy all these independent shop owners and tuners that have the ability and access to their own dyno. I would be going non stop experimenting with different things to see how they performed.
Sounds like you found a part time job after you retire! :fish:
I can think of several shops that would like a retired guy that would do testing for them. It very time consuming and costly as well.. I have a 124 that I need to run back to back to back to back tests.. 59 Se 58 HPI 58 SS 66 SS.. All same day type of deal, Then add in I have two more ex so a total of 3 systems once the FBW testing is done. Then a new FBW also.. Easy 2 days in the test cell banging that out. On top of all the other work.. I do not think you will have issue finding a job HA HA The idea to have a guy that is gun ho to do all that makes me smile
Not to mention building 2-4 maps for each combo on 3 tuners.. WOW,........break is over I have a 113 to tune have fun guys.
I do have one or two things planned to keep me busy for when I retire.
I hope to be getting things ready very soon for my first project I want to take on.
And wouldn't you know it...I will be needing a dyno for the proof of what I'm going to be doing. :banghead:
Ray
I prefer the look of the natural metal over the orange - red painted one. When I told my pet baboon about your decision he started to cry.
I wonder what the retirement project will be ,possibly a another engine build :potstir:
Ray that end cap looks good like that fits in with all the other good stuff.You should take mama on a vaca to fla and let her hit the beach and you can take the course from Doc on dyno tuning and be ready for when you get yours.The class cant be more than a week long.Just right.
Quote from: groundhog144 on November 01, 2014, 01:51:55 PM
I wonder what the retirement project will be ,possibly a another engine build :potstir:
you know someday I will build me that square motor I always wanted :wink:
digga25...I would love to take Doc's course. But then I would even be more 8-up :doh: ...and I really couldn't justify buying a dyno for the barn. I'm too cramped for space as it is now. I guess I could always do an addition to the barn. :hyst:
I'll just leave the tuning in the hands of Jim.
He just needs to move in next door so he's closer. :soda:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: groundhog144 on November 01, 2014, 01:51:55 PM
I wonder what the retirement project will be ,possibly a another engine build :potstir:
you know someday I will build me that square motor I always wanted :wink:
digga25...I would love to take Doc's course. But then I would even be more 8-up :doh: ...and I really couldn't justify buying a dyno for the barn. I'm too cramped for space as it is now. I guess I could always do an addition to the barn. :hyst:
I'll just leave the tuning in the hands of Jim.
He just needs to move in next door so he's closer. :soda:
Ray
Open your own tuning business in retirement. Heck if Bean at BigBoyz in Augusta can tune in a shack in his back yard why not you? Seems like a cool dig. Work at your own scheduled pace and chill when you want to. The extra $$ will support your other adventures.
That is something to think about.
I have something I'm going to try first and see if it takes off. I've been doing some leg work trying to get all my ducks in a row on what I've got in mind. If I can do what I'm wanting to...and sell some of them...later on I might be able to possibly do something like your talking about.
The problem is I just don't think there are enough people around here locally that would be interested in having their bikes dyno tuned...especially by someone like me that would just be starting out. I think they would rather travel the extra miles for a good experienced tuner instead. And I couldn't blame them for that.
Ray
added later:
just for giggles and chits I google searched for a used DynoJet 250i.
Much to my surprise I actually found three of them that were in trailers for sale that were complete units with the computers and fans and the rest of the works. All three units were in the $22,000.00 range. Each listing said everything that was needed was included in the listing. One was in Missouri and one was in Florida, and I forget where the other was.
The newest of the three was a 2011 model DynoJet 250i mounted in a 18' Haulin trailer with custom lifting side walls for viewing purposes. It was a brand new looking unit.
I would have expected a set up like one of these to cost a lot more. :nix:
http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/TrainingPrograms.html (http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/TrainingPrograms.html)
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 05:15:01 PM
That is something to think about.
I have something I'm going to try first and see if it takes off. I've been doing some leg work trying to get all my ducks in a row on what I've got in mind. If I can do what I'm wanting to...and sell some of them...later on I might be able to possibly do something like your talking about.
The problem is I just don't think there are enough people around here locally that would be interested in having their bikes dyno tuned...especially by someone like me that would just be starting out. I think they would rather travel the extra miles for a good experienced tuner instead. And I couldn't blame them for that.
Ray
added later:
just for giggles and chits I google searched for a used DynoJet 250i.
Much to my surprise I actually found three of them that were in trailers for sale that were complete units with the computers and fans and the rest of the works. All three units were in the $22,000.00 range. Each listing said everything that was needed was included in the listing. One was in Missouri and one was in Florida, and I forget where the other was.
The newest of the three was a 2011 model DynoJet 250i mounted in a 18' Haulin trailer with custom lifting side walls for viewing purposes. It was a brand new looking unit.
I would have expected a set up like one of these to cost a lot more. :nix:
It doesn't matter about experience so much IMO, If you are passionate about something that is a leg up. You'll pay attn. to the details more than I guy who "just does it for a living". If your a quick learner and follow the necessary steps you'll succeed. Heck, I know people who drive 1000+ miles to have a Bean tune. Word will get out quick enough about your skills. Don't worry too much about having enough local business. If you build it they will come.
it is an interesting idea...but I don't think I will ever pursue it.
If I was to invest into a piece of equipment like that I would have to put a sound proof addition onto the barn...even though I live out in the country. I do have neighbors close enough to me that I don't think would like to hear me spinning bikes on the drum.
By the time I built a climate controlled sound proof addition to the barn...bought a unit, and paid for the schooling to be competent enough to run one...I'd be dropping a huge chunk of cash down for possibly never being able to come close to breaking even.
I would be taking a big gamble.
I'll just have to wait and see what retirement does to me.
Something like this would keep me sane...I think. :hyst:
I'll more than likely just make a few custom exhaust pipes and build a few engines here and there...and leave the tuning to the pro's :wink:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 01, 2014, 07:33:15 PM
it is an interesting idea...but I don't think I will ever pursue it.
If I was to invest into a piece of equipment like that I would have to put a sound proof addition onto the barn...even though I live out in the country. I do have neighbors close enough to me that I don't think would like to hear me spinning bikes on the drum.
By the time I built a climate controlled sound proof addition to the barn...bought a unit, and paid for the schooling to be competent enough to run one...I'd be dropping a huge chunk of cash down for possibly of never being able to come close to breaking even.
I would be taking a big gamble.
I'll just have to wait and see what retirement does to me.
Something like this would keep me sane...I think. :hyst:
I'll more than likely just make a few custom exhaust pipes and build a few engines here and there...and leave the tuning to the pro's :wink:
Ray
Common Ray, go for it! Make all the noise you want. I ran a two-stroke Kawasaki on the drum this morning. The smoke was
outa control and the smell was awesome! Reminded me of napalm (the smell of victory).
Screw the neighbors. You gotta eat too!
Ray , I know where there is a late model 250 I with fans etc. I believe it could be had for around 10k . PM me if you are interested
I've got a little over a year before retirement. Now that you guys have put this bug into my ear I might just look around for one if I can get a bargain deal on one.
This is the one I found last night. It looks like a pretty nice set up and is a 2011 model 250i. He said it comes complete with everything needed. He was asking 22k for this rig.
I seriously doubt this is something I'll ever pursue...the investment would be a huge one for me.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Ray
That is a pretty nice set up Ray, you could probably recoup about 6K from the trailer if you were to sell it. Those concession trailers go for quit a bit. There looks to be rust on the drum which leads me to believe that it hasn't had a bike on it. My dyno is a 250i that was built in '09. When I got it a couple months ago it had less than12 bikes on it and I was told most of them were just HP pulls and not tunes. If you do go this route i'd suggest choosing a tuner and only using that type untill you get it all figured out. New dyno operators that want to tune every brand made seam to get overwhelmed. So figure one out and get comfortable with it before moving on to another. The fundamentals are pretty much the same between tuners, it's just learning the software. I'm lucky in the fact that when I started tuning about 10 years ago there was only a couple tuners (PC and SERT) to learn, the rest came after I had the process down pretty to go learning new tuners was just a matter of learning how to maneuver through the software.
The offer stands, if you want to take a mini vacation to Va. to play with one before you make an investment you're more than welcome to use mine. Being a start up shop and all, i'm not using it full time right now.
thanks Chad. :up:
I don't think this is something that will ever come about. I like the idea...but as you stated...there would be a big learning curve to the software programs used with these for me. I really didn't stay up with the times as well as I should have when this computer era exploded. My kids...which are grown adults now still have to help me out on the computer to do all kinds of things. I still type with one finger at a time. :doh:
It would be a huge learning curve for me to be able to understand exactly how these programs work and how they need to be applied to the bike. I'm not saying I couldn't be taught and sit down and learn it...I've just never tried to fully understand how it works.
I envy guys like yourself that have took this knowledge and have been able to use it.
I'll just have to see how things go when I retire. I do want to make a few different types of exhaust pipes and see how that goes. My start up cost for that would be more to my liking. If I was able to make a little profit from some pipes...I would then maybe look harder into buying a dyno to have the ability for testing purposes in the barn.
There is a guy here locally that has a dyno that I have talked to...to see if I could use it for doing some testing when I decide to make a few pipes. He seemed to have no problem with that. My problem would be that I would be changing tubing lengths and diameters until I found what I was after before making the final end product. I would be spending a lot of time on his dyno. I really don't think he fully understood what I was asking him.
Ray
Well Ray load your truck up with the pipe and stuff,And show up with some Beer and tell the guy you might be there for a while,and if he want he can stick around and he might even learn something,Of what not to do with the Dyno........ :hyst:
Ray I just could not help myself....... :oops:
I know...it would be dyno abuse if I was operating it :hyst: because I don't have a clue as to what the hell I would be doing on it.
Ray
Ray you would have a lot right here telling you what you need to do RIGHT,I would be at your side fudging with the lap top saying what will this do,or let's try that and see what happens,We both be buying or paying for a Dyno repair,That's if we didn't tear it up completely... :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: But what the hell are friends for right...... :potstir:
Let me know I'll be down with some of my Own bag of Plans
Purchasing a dyno and getting into the tuning business is something that has always sparked my interest as well.
I'm with ray on it, it worries me that it would take so long to recoupe that money and the fact that most people around here seem to die hard about going to a HD dealer for everything.
Ray, one good thing about a mobile dyno is you can haul it to a location that won't piss off the neighbors. I'm in the same boat with you there. I'm in the country but have neighbors and I want to respect that.
I have plenty of room for one in my shop or even at a buddies motorcycle business that would possibly bring in good business opportunities for them and me but that risk just scares the heck out of me.
Depending on your start up costs, you can be looking at easily 45 to 65 tunes @ $350.00 a pop to recover your investment. For a guy starting out, maybe two years if lucky. That's not counting any other expenses you have for up keep and updating of equipment that may be needed over time. If you need to build a dyno room, add more time.
The best tuners out there started off with a desire to learn and no experience, spent the dollars and time to get started. Spent many more hours and more dollars to get adequate. Stuck with it, kept an open mind and wallet, and got good. Realized there was a whole bunch to learn. Spent more time and effort to get to the level they are at now. I think you'd be good at it, given your desire to learn and improve.
the only way I would consider buying a dyno later on down the road would be if I could pick a good one up really cheap. I could not justify spending 20K on a machine and probably at least 1/2 that amount on building a sound proof room addition to put it into.
The investment looks too high for the possible small return I may get from it. My main objective for one would be more for testing purposes...rather than being in the business for tuning.
Ray
added later:
I just found out it would cost me another $5200.00 for a 6-day training class...with no expenses for lodging, food, or travel included in that price :cry:
That quickly takes the wind out of my sail for the possibility of ever buying a dyno someday. :emsad:
It would probably cost me over 40K by the time I was looking at a dyno sitting in the barn and I was trained to run it...before the 1st bike ever rolled up on it.
Oh well...it was nice to dream about it for a few days. :slap:
Ray dreams turn into reality if you have the passion.It seems like you have the passion+. Maybe that dyno tuner near you would hire you after retirement as a shop guy and you could learn the details from him and while you are learning you could slowly build your dyno room then buy one used and start the process.Take it slow, little at a time, then break off and do it up.You can build, you know the details, this we know is true. I didnt know the tuning class was so expensive but this guy Doc is pretty good, especially with TTS.Whatever you do good luck and you got my vote.As Jaycee siad Beans tuning shed is just that,a shed nothing extravagant and his porting room is like my wifes closet.But he does it and he has people coming from Canada and the mid west for tuning all the time.I will post a pic if I can find one.
makes the cost of a GOOD tune seem pretty good for those that didn't feel that way before.
Hang in there Ray you will come up with something to keep you going.
I retired 2 years ago and honestly I am that busy now I don't know how I ever had time to go to work.
It's funny how my wifes and my life long dreams of me being able to retire and move further south to a warmer climate...which I was looking forward to, to be able to ride year round...has quickly faded away it seems now in the last few years. With all the grand kids being born...my wife is dug in like a tick now. I don't think I'll ever be able to get her to move now.
I guess I can still find things around here to keep me busy...it's just harder each year on my body having to go thru the winter months after working outside in them for nearly my whole adult life.
I would be happy if I never seen snow again. This coming winter will be the longest of my life so far...just knowing it puts me closer to retirement.
I'll have a long winter to figure out something that can keep me busy in my retirement years.
Ray
It appears you need a second home Ray! A southern home refuge for those cold snowy winter months. Then rent it out when not in use and go back to your home base when the fair weather shows itself in the spring. Maybe your wife will come around to the idea after a year or two then make a permanent move.
Hey Ray, She could always come visit you from Nov-April. :chop:
We had plans this past summer to go south and spend a few weeks looking for a second place. That's when she broke the news to me she couldn't move away from the grand kids.
I'm not ruling out still finding a little place for a winter retreat. I think if I did find one...she might join me during the winter months when I'm not around to plow the snow off the drive way. I know she is not going to do it. :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 03, 2014, 04:26:32 AM
We had plans this past summer to go south and spend a few weeks looking for a second place. That's when she broke the news to me she couldn't move away from the grand kids.
I'm not ruling out still finding a little place for a winter retreat. I think if I did find one...she might join me during the winter months when I'm not around to plow the snow off the drive way. I know she is not going to do it. :hyst:
Ray
I guess I'm lucky. It will be another 6 for me until retirement but my wife is chomping at the bit to get out of Michigan.
Rick
Ray,
Lots of places for Rent Out of the Phoenix, Tucson, Casa Grande' area... Little towns like I live in (500/550$ monthly) have Many places that will rent for the winter season... Az. is a great place to live for the warmth...
Heck, today is ANOTHER Sunny day, BURR though starting out at 36* (global warming :hyst:) and only hitting 64*... Yet Yuma, is usually HOT year around... Cool of 78* today and warming to the Low 90* area during the next 10 days. Gila Bend another Warm year around spot 80* to 87* the next 10 days...
Apache Junction area (centering around the areas here in Az.) running low 80* to highs of 87* next 10 days. Riding from that area puts you centered for the best runs out Every Day riding year around....
So staying outside the Higher $$ Towns and High density people living areas best (for me anyways)...
Lots to offer here in Az...
signed....BUBBIE
I have friends that live in Kingman, then winter in Yuma. There are small trailer courts in Yuma that have really nice trailers, most with garages or large sheds. They can be gotten for like $2,800 a year lot rent. Trailers purchased for around $5,000.They have weekend get togethers, music, food, etc. You also have neighbors watching your stuff when your gone.
High lights in Yuma are the underground electric golf cart racing.. Bring your walker and your A game :hyst: Shuffle board is popular as well.. I hear there is a heavy hitter taking all the SS checks :missed:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on November 03, 2014, 09:13:15 AM
High lights in Yuma are the underground electric golf cart racing.. Bring your walker and your A game :hyst: Shuffle board is popular as well.. I hear there is a heavy hitter taking all the SS checks :missed:
WOW! Good thing they like to ride huh?
I am being funny its a huge retirement area, I have ridden through it countless times, in fact we had to stop once for a herd of golf carts to cross the road.. no kidding. Sunday brunch maybe I dont know.. :doh:
Had a chance to buy a dynojet 150 last year for 1250. It was a inertia dyno that was in a storage facility for 12 years. Looked almost new too....got cold feet cause it didnt have a brake....now im kicking myself.
the only draw back about it was it was 500 miles away...
:kick:
Still kick myself everytime i think about itt.
Quote
I guess I'm lucky. It will be another 6 for me until retirement but my wife is chomping at the bit to get out of Michigan.
I never thought I'd say it but after last winter I am finally leaning that way myself.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on November 03, 2014, 10:05:13 AM
I am being funny its a huge retirement area, I have ridden through it countless times, in fact we had to stop once for a herd of golf carts to cross the road.. no kidding. Sunday brunch maybe I dont know.. :doh:
Guess you've not been to Red's Bird Cage in downtown Yuma? I had a lot of fun nights there, as well as other places. Yuma is a place they use to get away.
Quote from: N-gin on November 03, 2014, 02:35:19 PM
Had a chance to buy a dynojet 150 last year for 1250. It was a inertia dyno that was in a storage facility for 12 years. Looked almost new too....got cold feet cause it didnt have a brake....now im kicking myself.
the only draw back about it was it was 500 miles away...
:kick:
Still kick myself everytime i think about itt.
did you see if they still had it in storage?
That's the kind of deal I would love to find myself. If I run into a deal like that...I'd have a dyno in the barn to play with.
Ray
Ray you can find a really nice park model or a mobile home for $2500-$5000 every day in Alabama or florida and park it in a nice secure park for $1800-$3000 a year....maybe less
Yea John...my 1st thought was to maybe buy a lot or a little piece of land because I've got a nice 41' 5th wheel toy hauler with three slide outs that I could park and live in it during the winter months. I'd just have to find some place that would let me park it that was un-zoned and I'd want sewer and water and electric on the property.
I could build me a nice little shed to keep the bike in while I was there.
That way I could just leave the 5th wheel there and pull the bike back and forth on a trailer. Later on if I find a nice little house...maybe I could buy it.
I was thinking along the pan handle coast somewhere a few miles inland would be perfect.
I will go looking next year...even if the wifeepooh doesn't want to go this time. I'll just load the bike up and stroll around down that way and poke around for a few weeks. I should be able to find something.
Ray
Ray,
Sure don't have to worry about you Slumming it do we... :bike:
Good on you Ray... :up:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on November 03, 2014, 09:13:15 AM
High lights in Yuma are the underground electric golf cart racing.. Bring your walker and your A game :hyst: Shuffle board is popular as well.. I hear there is a heavy hitter taking all the SS checks :missed:
If they catching you making too much noise, do you get canned. :scratch:
Max
:wink:
I rode thru a park my Aunt and Uncle were staying in Yuma. Dirt road.
I was on my Dyna with seasoned Python 3's and really let it rip just to make sure they Heard Me Com'n...... No one seemed to mind the noise but complained about the Speed I rode IN and Dust I left behind... :chop:
Remember the High Banner, stretched across the entrance of Deadwood... "Welcome...We Heard You Com'n" That was My favorite way IN and I KNEW they heard me com'n...
signed....BUBBIE
ive been street tuning for last year it help when have web site with tuner that are willing to help you understand as HTT
Well Ray I'm with you on the snow. Started life in Montana and been the last 40 in Alaska. Tired of snow, cold, and aches. Bought a home in Az this spring but the wife was waffling because she likes the new home I built her in Ak. Told her fine I would see her in the spring. She changed her mind and is packing as I type. Now I've got to finish putting the clutch in the truck and finish packing the trailer. EEEEEHaaa Az here I come.
Knowing you'll and She will love it here...
Especially IF your used to the cold when you come here IN The Winter...
The first two years I was here:
Wintered fine,,,,,Too warm in the summer then year two, Not bad in the summer, NOW Just right in the summer. Air conditioning is a must :hyst:
That is why I ride... :chop:
signed....BUBBIE
SE corner of Az.
enjoy Arizona Snowyone...that sounds nice! :up:
I have a harder time each year dealing with the cold winter weather the older I get...so finding a warm winter haven retreat is going to be high on my priority list for next year.
I guess people can laugh at me a call me a snow bird...but at least I won't be frozen to the bone.
Ray
Make sure Ray you find House with a lot of extra rooms and a few baths,I think I found you the extra income you where lookin for that Dyno,hell I'll be the first one in line during the Grand Opening,first room rental,and first Dyno sign me up,And I'll fill the fridge up the first time around I might need the room till about April or May though........ 💰💰💰💰
well men...I've kicked the thought around of up sizing the injectors from my current yellow band 6.2's to a blue band 60lb 7.5 injector.
I ended up buying a set of 60lber's made by Siemens.
If anything...I don't think it will be starving for fuel.
I'll put the 60lb injectors in this weekend and I'll take the 6.2's along with me to Jim's...so if the 7.5's don't tune in very well I will have the 6.2's there for back up.
Randy's pipe is suppose to be here tomorrow for his 143/144 project...so the trips to Jim's is getting real close now.
[attach=0]
Ray
Looks like Baker is in the beta testing phase if their comp. Hows yours holding up?
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg.html)
:nix:
I've only put 500 easy miles on it since I did the compression bump. I haven't heard the comp make any noises so far.
I'm hoping to make it to Jim's real soon for the tune so I can twist on it harder if we get lucky and catch a warm dry day.
The weather has turned for the worse around here now...winter is here. :sick:
It might be spring time before I know how the comps going to hold up this time...if it doesn't I will eliminate it and go to a solid sprocket and try that. I never heard anymore from John @ Darkhorse about the comp he was working on.
Ray
Yea we all gave up on a DH comp.
I told an Indy friend about the Darkhorse comp and he called for an update. He has been installing solid sprockets with reasonable success on daily driver type situations but is looking for a comp alternative to the Harley OEM. He was told it's real close to release now. Just confirming the materials or something like that. Maybe someone here has a similar report?
:pop: We are all here Ray :pop:
it's been a busy day for me today.
I got up and worked some more Saturday OT to pay for the bike to be tuned.
My oldest 31 year old daughter went into labor around midnight for giving birth to her 1st child. She said she would never have any kids...so it was a shock to me and the wifeeepooh when she told us she was pregnant.
I got a call at work from my wife saying to come straight home and we were going to the hospital.
Rachel (my daughter) had some complications and they couldn't stop the bleeding. She lost about 1/2 the blood in her body before they got it stopped. She had to under go an emergency surgery and they gave her four pints of blood. She was moved from ICU to a room and we finally got to see the baby. They baby girl is fat and healthy and Rachel is recovering.
Here is the wifeeepooh with the newest addition to the grand kids. Grandma is one happy camper!
[attach=0]
Ray
Beautiful baby Ray,congrats to you and your family and i know you already know God is good..
Nice picture, she looks very happy!
Congrats Papa! I hope your daughter is doing well. Child berth is not a given thing as I am the father of a pre me. Wishing the best for all of you.
Grandchildren ..... unconditional love :hug:
All's well that ends well. Thank God!
this girl was...aaah...big.
9lbs 9oz and was 22" long.
You can tell she likes Harley's already...with those hog jaws :hyst:
[attach=0]
Ray
Congrats Ray !
I'm glad everything turned out well Ray. You have a beautiful family!
Congrats Ray!!!!!
Congrats!!
Congratulations Ray! Glad to hear things are going well with your daughter.
the wifeeepooh and I thank all of you for the best wishes! :hug:
Ray & Vicki
Well I got to say she looks a lot better than her grandpa....... :hyst:
Just messin with Ya Ray,congratulations,remember feed'em candy and send them home,when they get alittle older......
Congrats Ray!!
Congrats Ray., Just found out yesterday that I am going to be a grandfather for the first time. My son and daughter-n-law had a reveal party and it will be a boy!!!!!! Hell yeah!
Congratulations Ray! Beautiful grandaughter. Wish your daughter a speedy recovery and hope you get a few good naps in with that ball of joy sleeping on your chest!
She already has that "you better not be standing in my way when I want to ride" look!!! She's almost big enough now for her first ride, right!!
Congrats and best wishes for your daughters speedy recovery. Buffalo
Congrats to you and yours Ray.. Beautiful Baby!! Glad everything turned out OK.. Scott
Quote from: Buffalo on November 16, 2014, 10:39:52 AM
She already has that "you better not be standing in my way when I want to ride" look!!! She's almost big enough now for her first ride, right!!
Congrats and best wishes for your daughters speedy recovery. Buffalo
Think you are right Buffalo,
All Ray needs is a set of goggles for her and a front carrier strapped up to Ray, so she is looking straight forward thru the wind screen... insert the little gal and she and Ray are Off to the races... :chop:
signed....BUBBIE
:up:
thank you men for the well wishes.
My daughter was finally moved from the ICU room today and she was moved into a private room.
The baby is doing great and my daughter is making some progress. She had all the IV's removed today except for the one for adding blood incase she needs more blood.
Now a motorcycle topic. I put the 60lb 7.5 injectors in today. Loaded in a new map with the constants changed to 7.5 for the injectors. The bike fired right up while on the lift and seemed to run fine...throttle blipping was exceptional and it seemed to roll effortlessly up the rpm's. I let it run for a few minutes on the lift and shut it off. I went back 5- 10 minutes later to start it again. She won't start. I would crank but wouldn't light up. So I went back into the map and lowered the constant on the injector to 7.41...same results...won't start. I damn near ran the battery down trying to start it.
So I gave up on them and put the 6.2 injectors back in and didn't change the map. I wanted to see if it would start.
I hit the button and it fired right up.
So I loaded the map back in for the 6.2 injectors and Jim will get it like that.
I guess I bought some 60lb 7.5 injector paper weights. :doh:
Ray
issue is in the starting fuel table Stroker should be able to walk you thought it
Congrats Ray. Glad to hear your daughter is doing OK now. :rose:
Quote from: WideWildGlide on November 16, 2014, 01:17:53 PM
issue is in the starting fuel table Stroker should be able to walk you thought it
hummm...I'm going to have to look into that...because when it fired up with the 60lb injectors in it...the throttle blipped better than it has ever done before. It was actually amazing. It just wouldn't start back up again.
Thanks for the heads up.
Thank you Billy. :up:
The daughter and the baby got to go home this afternoon.
Now I can finally breath a sigh of relief!
Ray
Quote from: Soft 02 on November 14, 2014, 02:42:12 PM
Looks like Baker is in the beta testing phase if their comp. Hows yours holding up?
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg.html)
Awesome. How did you come across this? I am curious for more info as I am sure are others
Quote from: misfitJason on November 17, 2014, 06:18:12 PM
Quote from: Soft 02 on November 14, 2014, 02:42:12 PM
Looks like Baker is in the beta testing phase if their comp. Hows yours holding up?
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/c1_a86ffb325e97b1b420f602f447d9f0b08de716d8.jpg.html)
Awesome. How did you come across this? I am curious for more info as I am sure are others
I'll let you know more when I know more. This one is being tested right now then a few will probably released for beta testing. Can't say much more.
I hope it works and is light weight too.
Quote from: No Cents on November 16, 2014, 12:47:38 PM
Now a motorcycle topic. I put the 60lb 7.5 injectors in today. Loaded in a new map with the constants changed to 7.5 for the injectors. The bike fired right up while on the lift and seemed to run fine...throttle blipping was exceptional and it seemed to roll effortlessly up the rpm's. I let it run for a few minutes on the lift and shut it off. I went back 5- 10 minutes later to start it again. She won't start. I would crank but wouldn't light up. So I went back into the map and lowered the constant on the injector to 7.41...same results...won't start. I damn near ran the battery down trying to start it.
So I gave up on them and put the 6.2 injectors back in and didn't change the map. I wanted to see if it would start.
I hit the button and it fired right up.
So I loaded the map back in for the 6.2 injectors and Jim will get it like that.
I guess I bought some 60lb 7.5 injector paper weights. :doh:
Ray
I can't see how your bike should need the 60lb./hr. injectors... :nix: I would think the 50lb./hr. injectors should flow plenty enough fuel for your bike. What made you want to add the others? Are you thinking of using E85?
K.
I'm staying with the 6.2's.
Ray
Your cranking fuel table is in PW. This is directly related to how long the injector is open in milliseconds. Injector size in the other table has no affect on this.
On a build like yours that was tuned "correctly" before hand. You can find the difference in flow rate from old injectors to new in a percentage. Subtract that same percentage from cranking fuel and you should be in ball park.
Assuming you still have TTS. HTH
Blah Blah Blah let's get started on that square motor :potstir:
Quote from: groundhog144 on November 19, 2014, 10:31:33 AM
Blah Blah Blah let's get started on that square motor :potstir:
:doh:
ok...I sent off for a parts list today. :embarrassed:
Ray
I was able to get the bike out today for the 1st time in weeks. The roads are dirty from snow treatment but they dried enough so I only needed 40 more miles on it to be able to do my 500 mile oil change since the compression bump. I had the 10w60 Liqui-Moly oil in it with low miles on the oil when I did the compression bump...so I kept it in and didn't run dino oil. This is the 1st time I ran a full synthetic during ring seating and break in.
I must say there was no metal on the drain plug and I cut the K&N filter open I was using to inspect it. It had no metal in it either. I was happy to see that. The bike doesn't appear to have used any oil or smoke any...so I guess I did a good job seating the rings with the synthetic oil.
I went back this time with my FLO oil filter and put in some thinner 15w50 Mobil 1 synthetic for the winter.
Randy was able to run his 143/144 Canned Heat yesterday and log on the 50 miles he needed to do his 1st oil change. I stopped by his house today on the bike and he wasn't home but it looked like he probably had his out again today because you could see in the driveway where he washed something to get the nasty road grim off...I figured it had to be his bike.
When ever Randy says he's ready to load them up and Jim has a few stalls open...I'm game to drop a Canned Heat and Duracell off to be tuned.
Ray
Just sittin here waitin for the report...... :pop:
Than we can start on the New (PROJECT) For a Adrenaline rush,Nothing like Big Cube's....
Quote from: No Cents on November 23, 2014, 11:14:22 AM
I was able to get the bike out today for the 1st time in weeks. The roads are dirty from snow treatment but they dried enough so I only needed 40 more miles on it to be able to do my 500 mile oil change since the compression bump. I had the 10w60 Liqui-Moly oil in it with low miles on the oil when I did the compression bump...so I kept it in and didn't run dino oil. This is the 1st time I ran a full synthetic during ring seating and break in.
I must say there was no metal on the drain plug and I cut the K&N filter open I was using to inspect it. It had no metal in it either. I was happy to see that. The bike doesn't appear to have used any oil or smoke any...so I guess I did a good job seating the rings with the synthetic oil.
I went back this time with my FLO oil filter and put in some thinner 15w50 Mobil 1 synthetic for the winter.
Randy was able to run his 143/144 Canned Heat yesterday and log on the 50 miles he needed to do his 1st oil change. I stopped by his house today on the bike and he wasn't home but it looked like he probably had his out again today because you could see in the driveway where he washed something to get the nasty road grim off...I figured it had to be his bike.
When ever Randy says he's ready to load them up and Jim has a few stalls open...I'm game to drop a Canned Heat and Duracell off to be tuned.
Ray
Sounds good! :up:
Mr. Bill also knows how to hone our cylinders, been pulling metal out of cylinders for over 30 years.
Bill did a great job fitting the piston to the cylinders for me. :up: I wouldn't hesitate to use him again or suggest his services to anyone looking.
Did you get your bike out yesterday or today Brian...and get it dirty?
I couldn't take it and I had to get mine out and feel it a little bit. I broke down and did some 4K and 5K shifts...WOW is about all I can say about that! I'm still smiling and I parked the bike over an hour ago.
I almost made it all the way home before the rain started. The last two miles I got a little wet and I had to keep the wick turned down.
Ray
I would have liked to get out Ray, but ended up going into work around noon yesterday, then went in again today at 5:00 AM, just now got home. Had next week as vacation, and will end up in work at least tomorrow.
Guess it could be worse, I could be looking for a job.....
Yeah, Bill does super work. I don't know if he told you or not, one reason he had your parts as long as he did, he made a new set of torque plates for your cylinders. He wasn't satisfied with they way the bigger bore set he had was squaring your cylinder bore, they weren't repeatable. So he made a set specifically for "larger" bores. If you sit and listen to him, he's a very smart guy, knows how to make motors go.
yes he did tell me that.
He said exactly what you said and he ending up making new torque plates to do my cylinders. :teeth:
That's the mark of a true craftsman and a professional at work! :up:
When you see him...tell him "thanks" for me again!
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 23, 2014, 11:56:54 AM
yes he did tell me that.
He said exactly what you said and he ending up making new torque plates to do my cylinders. :teeth:
That's the mark of a true craftsman and a professional at work! :up:
When you see him...tell him "thanks" for me again!
Ray
:up:
Quote from: No Cents on November 23, 2014, 11:56:54 AM
yes he did tell me that.
He said exactly what you said and he ending up making new torque plates to do my cylinders. :teeth:
That's the mark of a true craftsman and a professional at work! :up:
When you see him...tell him "thanks" for me again!
Ray
There was also a time, eight or so years ago where Bill was boring R&D cylinders for S&S. Not sure why they sent them out, but they did.
Quote from: IRONMIKE113 on November 23, 2014, 11:22:37 AM
Just sittin here waitin for the report...... :pop:
Than we can start on the New (PROJECT) For a Adrenaline rush,Nothing like Big Cube's....
Mike...I'm almost embarrassed to be taking my bike to Jim's with Randy's at the same time. :embarrassed:
I think Randy's bike is going to be off the hook...and put up some really impressive numbers. It's friggin badass!
Mine will look like a little 100lb weakling compared to his...but I do hope mine does make some improvement.
We should be getting close to making the trip to Jim's...I do believe.
Ray
Just skip the 131" and go for R&R's 155" It's very close to square.
Bore - 4.600
Stroke - 4.625
Rod Length - 8.375
Compression - 10.2:1
Pistons - CP® Dished
Cam - 620M Or have Randy KOC, supply the parts for something really big!
TIME TO BE TOP DOG!
[attach=0] not me...no top dog for me.
I just want a reliable bigger inch motor for long distance touring that can get out of it's own way if need be.
Ray
What is the top speed of your bike?
Ray Your's will do Great,As for Randy he is on a Different Bus...... :hyst: (No offense Randy)
Your Project is a Whole Differant Animal....... :wink: Be Careful how high you Raise the bar!!
Is there going to be a silent auction for the 124? :potstir:
Quote from: Barrett on November 23, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
What is the top speed of your bike?
I don't have a clue as for the top speed. I guess it boils down to how many gonads I have that day. :hyst:
Mark...no silent auction...I never thought about selling it....maybe the whole bike :emoGroan: ...but the engine would be staying in it if I did.
Ray
Ray, you have a sweet-looking bike that runs as good as it looks and is a result of much effort. I'd have a tough time parting with it. But... A custom FXR frame... another killa engine... and a big barn to store two bikes in... I'd be making' plans!!!
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on November 24, 2014, 02:56:21 AM
Is there going to be a silent auction for the 124? :potstir:
:potstir: Nice to see you "here" Mark.... :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 24, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on November 24, 2014, 02:56:21 AM
Is there going to be a silent auction for the 124? :potstir:
:potstir: Nice to see you "here" Mark.... :teeth:
Well you can't help but get some of this stuff on ya....
:hyst:
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on November 24, 2014, 02:56:21 AM
Is there going to be a silent auction for the 124? :potstir:
I'd throw a bid in on it! :fish:
I watched a couple of video tonight where a few guys had changed their stock HD front lower motor mount out to the Glide Pro motor mount.
It looked like it made a big difference with less vibration in the bars and the engine at idle.
Anyone found this to be true?
If so I might have to invest in one.
Ray
I have the Glide Pro on my '06 really like it.
Burch753 has them in his RK with a 124, I can attest to how smooth it is, I tuned it and was very impressed. Here a ling, he has a video in post 1.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,78107.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,78107.0.html)
I'll just have to pick one up then and see if it helps on my bike...thanks :up:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2014, 03:28:28 AM
I'll just have to pick one up then and see if it helps on my bike...thanks :up:
Ray
The biggest thing Ray is to snug it down lightly then crank the engine and let it idle for 15 or 20 seconds to center up everything. You do that and it will be smooth as a babies ass.
:up:
Thanks Smarty...that's what the guys did in the videos I watched.
One guy held a glass of water on the front brake reservoir for a before and after demonstration...a huge difference with the Glide Pro installed.
Ray
Quote from: Dogbone45ACP on November 25, 2014, 07:09:48 PM
I have the Glide Pro on my '06 really like it.
:agree: I have the front mount on my 05, very happy.
Rick
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2014, 06:33:46 AM
:up:
Thanks Smarty...that's what the guys did in the videos I watched.
One guy held a glass of water on the front brake reservoir for a before and after demonstration...a huge difference with the Glide Pro installed.
Ray
I might add:
The ones I saw installed by friends that didn't do this, the vibration was terrible. They hated the glide pro. I helped them center it then everything was great.
Quote from: Smarty on November 26, 2014, 06:39:53 AM
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2014, 06:33:46 AM
:up:
Thanks Smarty...that's what the guys did in the videos I watched.
One guy held a glass of water on the front brake reservoir for a before and after demonstration...a huge difference with the Glide Pro installed.
Ray
I might add:
The ones I saw installed by friends that didn't do this, the vibration was terrible. They hated the glide pro. I helped them center it then everything was great.
If you over torque the GP it will shake. I think it's something like 10 ft. lb.
Rick
'Have the GlidePros (F&R) in the '05 SEEG & '09 SERG, really like them, much smoother...
Great Customer Service from GlidePro!
1 tater masher loaded for the trip to Jim's in the morning.
That Canned Heat machine will be slipping onto the trailer here very shortly also.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 28, 2014, 10:56:51 AM
1 tater masher loaded for the trip to Jim's in the morning.
That Canned Heat machine will be slipping onto the trailer here very shortly also.
[attach=0]
Ray
Now thats a pickup truck. Is probably larger inside than my first house.
Ed...I bought that F-450 new in 2008. It's been a good truck. It will pull a house...for sure.
Randy brought the Canned Heat monster over and we have them loaded up and tucked away back into the barn.
Here come the boys from Ohio Jim...ready or not. :hyst:
I think Randy's bike will tune out very nice for you and show some impressive numbers...mine on the other hand needs a tune badly and I just hope I didn't go backwards with it. :doh:
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 23, 2014, 05:43:55 PM
[attach=0] not me...no top dog for me.
I just want a reliable bigger inch motor for long distance touring that can get out of it's own way if need be.
Ray
R&R 131 then,... as the build you have outlined is not a long distance style build for touring by common definition. But what do you think you will gain with the 131??
Some pics of a 131 we did with ductile.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Engine%20parts/DSCF2322_zps3ee030c1.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Engine%20parts/DSCF2322_zps3ee030c1.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Engine%20parts/DSCF2325_zps9446f9dc.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Engine%20parts/DSCF2325_zps9446f9dc.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Engine%20parts/DSCF2323_zpsc557e111.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Engine%20parts/DSCF2323_zpsc557e111.jpg.html)
A crate 131 from R&R .. From having done it both ways no way would I go the cylinder route you plan on for your stated use. But If you want real info Call up R&R and talk to them .
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/DSCF2985_zps1ccb59f9.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/DSCF2985_zps1ccb59f9.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/DSCF2986_zps5411b42f.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/DSCF2986_zps5411b42f.jpg.html)
I've just about scraped the idea of a finned ductile cylinder and will more than likely just go with a set of the newer style cylinders from S&S again or aluminum finned cylinders from Axtell. I think it would be wise for me to not run external oil lines and just play it on the safer side. This might just be the easiest and simplest approach to it for me.
The engine will not be high in compression (10.2- 10.5:1 max)...it will just be a little bigger cubic inch engine designed to deliver smooth roll on power from idle to 5800 rpm's.
It will not be a racer or a dyno queen...no burn outs or wheelies...just built to be a long distance cruiser.
Like I said...it's all in the planning stages and I'm in no hurry. So I want to look at all my options for every part before deciding on what to go with before I start gathering all the parts and pieces I'll be needing.
I plan on talking to a lot of people that have built something like this before and see what kind of results they have gotten from a larger bore engine that is designed with cruising in mind.
Ray
"No burn outs or wheelies" :hyst: BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH :hyst: :hyst: ooops sorry Ray, It just slipped out. :embarrassed:
Ray, glad you ditched the ductile iron thing on a street bike. I didn't want to say anything but its hard to keep these super big inch engines cool in day to day traffic stops! Regards to you and your lovely wife, daughter and grand daughter. Play it safe Amigo! -Tutt aka -A-
There's two for sure (probably more) of us looking forward towards seeing the results from both the Duracell and Canned Heat. I own a little old S&S 124 and my bud is frothing at the mouth over the 143/144!!!
I think a low comp 131 square engine should be a really good choice for touring. 140/140 would let you cruise the highways in comfort and relative quiet. I too would choose S&S cylinders for this build. My 124 runs around 190 degrees on 100 degree days, the hottest I've ever seen it was 230 stuck in traffic for an hour on the bridge from Canada to US at the Sioux. Within 4-5 miles it was back to 190 once I got going again. The extra fin surface on the S&S heads and cylinders does it job! Buffalo
Ray, years ago when AMI was hosting the HP shootout I remember TR casually riding up to the competition on a stock appearing HD. Didn't sound like much either but when he rolled up on the Superflow dyno he clicked off around 200hp! Said it was a 155" and would do 205 if memory serves. Sounds like something your looking for?
it's got to fit into a stock frame Gordon.
I'm not wanting anything extreme...just reliable smooth power that will last without beating itself to death.
Ray
Randy and I delivered our bikes to Jim's today for tuning.
I can't wait to see what he says about Randy's rig. I predict it will be very close to 170 hp...plus or minus a few.
Ray
:party:
:pop:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 29, 2014, 03:19:16 PM
:party:
:up: yes...we finally made it to Jim's...Eric & Mike. :D
I just hope I didn't hurt mine by putting 500 miles on it before getting a proper tune put to it.
Now I just wait to see if my end cap works...or I got another paper weight for the barn :cry:
I know just about everybody is excited to see what Randy's 143/144 crate engine does. I can't wait to see the results myself.
I know Randy has to be excited...and I'm happy for him.
Ray
I thought I'd bump this to the top. :smiled: It sounds like we may be getting close to finding out how the 124 changes and the pipe cap worked out. :chop:
It won't be in the same league of that Canned Heat 143/144 of Randy's...that's a fact.
I got your package from the SEMA show today kd...thanks :up:
I just hope mine doesn't go backwards. It felt better with the changes...but that wasn't fact...it was just my butt talking thru my mouth. :doh:
Ray
Maybe not the same as Randy's (nor could you expect it to be) but I'll bet it picks up something with your changes. If it felt better it probably is. Unless of course you were twisting the grip harder than before. :dgust: :slap:
I hope there was something in the books that is useful. :up:
this is what I've been working on lately.
I took the saw tooth sprocket that Sidewinder sent me by mistake that wasn't finished and I drilled out the holes to match my wheels and I plasma cut out the bigger sections.
I took a die grinder with a burr bit and got it pretty close tonight. It dropped some serious weight over the sprocket that's on the bike right now.
[attach=0]
If and how are you wanting to put in the contrast cut?
I'll paint it.
Ray
Very cool. Are you feelin a little fidgety right now? :wink: You're one busy dude.
no kd I'm pretty relaxed. I'm getting too damn old to get overly excited about many things it seems these days.
I'm sure Jim will do a great job tuning the old Duracell for me. I just hope nothing breaks this time. :banghead: My track record at Jim's isn't the best. :hyst:
After tuning Randy's 143ci monster...Jim will think mine feels like a little mini bike.
Ray
A 124CI motor putting 1.2 HP/CI to the rear wheel is NO mini bike. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on December 02, 2014, 07:11:51 PM
I'll paint it.
Ray
one side almost done Jay.
close enough for hand grenades and horse shoes. 40 mph down the road and no one will ever know the difference.
[attach=0]
Ray
I like it. Nice job on the match.
Looks good.
Ray any word on when the updated Cat will be peering out of the bag?
nope...no word yet.
Ray
Remain calm Ray the old Duracell is on the drum :soda:
:gob:
calm...me calm? :hyst:
:beer:
Ray
I know you discounted using the ductile iron cylinders on your new project in the making but I've had experience with them and it was all good but not near the size you're talking. Built a 4 5/8 stroke stock bore Evo back in 88 and for the era it was a monster. Used Hemi Design heads and pistons at 10 1/2 to 1; Bob Woods modified carb; Supertrap Exhaust; Dyna S single fire ignition; and a Redshift cam(575 if I remember right. It was the quickest, smoothest, Electraglide, or Harley for that manner I ever rode till my 124 softail and there were two hotrod 95's between that time. It went on trips from the Artic Circle to Key West, Florida-from 100* plus temps on the Sturgis drag to 30* temps in Alaska for 40k and with never a problem or hiccup. The only reason it got sold is it was totaled by the insurance company and I bought it back, fixed it up an sold it and had enough money for a new Road Glide with a 95" upgrade. Small community and I know it's been thrashed by three owners and looks like crap right now but the current owner needed a new clutch cable and I fixed it for him. Took it for a ride and it still rips without the Hemi Heads and Woods carb. Engine has never been into sense it left my garage. I'd buy it back just for the engine and would be using ductile iron now if it wasn't so expensive.
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 01:42:26 PM
:gob:
calm...me calm? :hyst:
:beer:
Ray
Are we there yet :potstir:
Ray any results yet.Hoping for ya.
no...but I guess Randy has talked or been texting Jim...and Jim said he had it strapped down on the drum ready to start messing with it.
I guess we will be hearing something fairly soon. I just hope it doesn't fall on it's face.
Ray
How did the butt dyno feel? Did it feel like it fell on its face?
let's just say it needed tuned badly.
It felt stronger...but my butt dyno isn't any count. :hyst:
Ray
Randy probably broke the dyno. :smilep:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 04, 2014, 03:28:56 PM
Randy probably broke the dyno. :smilep:
If he didn't...he definitely wore it out. :hyst:
The old Duracell will be a lot easier on Jim's drum.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 03:41:10 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 04, 2014, 03:28:56 PM
Randy probably broke the dyno. :smilep:
If he didn't...he definitely wore it out. :hyst:
The old Duracell will be a lot easier on Jim's drum.
Ray
check your e mail :chop: ......you did good Ray :beer:
Woo-hoo!
:pop: :missed: :pop:
come on ray check it
[attach=0]
thank you Jim! :up: :beer:
I'll sleep like a baby tonight. :bike:
Ray
Dont do that to us Ray ! PLEASE post the sheet :chop:
with or with out the end cap ????
Sounds like time to lock the thread. :potstir:
:wtf: lolll
Brilliant!!! Can you say," Bookmark"?
After reply 2816 this thread was locked for a goof.
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Edit: Should have quoted it, but this was in reply to post 2816
:emoGroan: C'mon Ray! We'll be up till 2 AM checking this thread every 10 minutes man. :missed: Have some mercy on the brothers here. :chop:
151...square.
Ray
Can't wait
:pop:
Whatcha got for CCP right now in the copper top?
Wow that's nice!
How about the end cap?
Anyone notice the drain on the server ? Must be all those nasty pm's . :hyst:
You guys quit hitting refresh and maybe ray can get logged on :potstir:
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 06:48:56 PM
151...square.
Ray
:up: Sounds great Ray, a
little lot of low end grunt too. :chop:
Sweeet ! Great job Ray and Jim :beer:
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 04, 2014, 06:51:59 PM
Anyone notice the drain on the server ? Must be all those nasty pm's . :hyst:
You guys quit hitting refresh and maybe ray can get logged on :potstir:
:up: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: Wait a go there Ray. Good on ya buddy. You too Jim :up: :up: :up:
2 replies since I typed this :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Well done you guys, well done!
good work ray :up:
Nice job guys. Look forward to seeing the run sheet. :up:
The best I can do right now ray . I am back in the shop.
Here are your two best runs with the baffle / end cap
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/F85CA931-71C3-4EAA-A4A2-DC64DB29F2F9.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/F85CA931-71C3-4EAA-A4A2-DC64DB29F2F9.jpg.html)
Ray your willingness to share your journey with us is much appreciated.
Congrats on reaching your goal with this build :up: :beer:
Ray keep playing, it's paying off. Congratulations.
Your contributions in this thread are greatly appreciated, Fun reading!
:hyst:
It looks like I got rid of the early tq dip I had before with the end cap I made.
It think it's a keeper...and it's not going to be a paper weight after all.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 07:14:41 PM
:hyst:
It looks like I got rid of the early tq dip I had before with the end cap I made.
It think it's a keeper...and it's not going to be a paper weight after all.
Ray
:up: :up: :beer:
Ray,
120 TQ at 2,000 RPM is wicked. It looks like the end cap was a success. I hope you'll show us a run without it if you (Jim) did one. Might even start out higher torque than that neighbor of yours' 144 incher right now with that cap. I reccon It'll pull your arms off the grips real good now.
I couldn't be happier for you. :koolaid: Thanks for taking the time to share all this with us. Now turn a couple of brown bottles into telescopes and relax for the rest of the evening. :wink:
Congratulations Ray! Your perseverance and mad skills have certainly paid off.
Thank you for sharing all the details, sharing the thought processes, having the patience to put up with all the questions and diversions.
I started reading this thread about 2 years ago (seems like it anyway!) just because it already had like 4 pages of posts, thinking I had no horse in the race.
I thought for sure a hot 106 was in my future. Now I need a 124.
Looking forward to your reviews of the riding experience.
Great work guys. Ray I can't remember what cams are in this combo and don't have time to read 50 pages back. So what are they again? Congratulations
:up:
thank you men for the kind words!
...and thank you Jim for another great tune...you da man!
Nick they are Cycle-rama CR651's.
run 34 was my last old tune with the 662-2's
run 31 is the current set up with the end cap
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray run 31 and run 35 are both now with the end cap .
Run 34 is last tune
Last tune no end cap vs now with end cap .
Sorry I will get the others
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/E%2085/41A8A7FC-E7B4-4D12-AF4E-0C7B617ED2AB.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/E%2085/41A8A7FC-E7B4-4D12-AF4E-0C7B617ED2AB.jpg.html)
run 34...old tune with 662-2's with "no" end cap
run 38...current set up with CR651's and "no" end cap
run 31...current set up with CR651's and "with the end cap"
[attach=0]
Ray
Picked up 15 tq right in the sweet spot . Should be a blast !
Keep the cap :teeth: :up: :up: nice Big gain on the bottom and no loss on top. Just what you were looking for. Well worth the R&D time. :up: :up: :up:
uncorrected sheet
[attach=0]
Ray
Very impressive Ray good luck.Stroker you are a pro,nice job.
Vince should see this sheet.
So i get home from work eat ,shower, shave and then fall asleep on the couch at 8.30 and then wake up at 11.30 only to see i missed all the fireworks pages 113-115 well Jim proves once again why we love the trip to Illinois and Ray/8 up is constantly finding more Hp/Tork from within the Old Duracell ,Now if i can only get ray to ride the bike like he stole the sumb..ch :hyst: :hyst:
now...how am I going to be able to get 20 more horsepower out of this thing so I can ride along beside you? :doh:
just kidding...this engine will be ridden just the way it sits.
Hey...at least I got my square motor I was after :hyst:
Yes kd...it looks like the end cap accomplished what I sat out to do. It raised my torque up sooner and let it carry on out without hurting the big end, and didn't lose me any horsepower. It looks like a win, win for the end cap.
Ray
Any feedback on how your new Scorpion low-profile clutch is working?
Quote from: turboprop on December 05, 2014, 03:36:22 AM
Any feedback on how your new Scorpion low-profile clutch is working?
no Ed...I haven't talked to Jim yet.
He just sent me the dyno sheets last night and told me good job on the end cap.
Ray
Very cool Ray!! I love the lines, that end cap nailed it.
Great build Ray! And as usual Strokers "Midas touch". Nice work.
:up:
Thanks guys!
I'm very pleased to see the torque come in sooner and higher with the end cap.
I can't wait to ride it with it being properly tuned.
I knew the old butt dyno could feel a difference...it just goes to show that sometimes I get lucky and come up with a good idea. :hyst:
Ray
Had nothing to add to this thread but damn amazing to watch the process. Very impressed. All your threads are very educational. Gunna start callin you PBS.
Dam!! Good stuff....how fast you reckon we be crusin where Tq crosses HP??
Congratulations ! :scoot:
So a simple recap would be great.
Increase in compression new cam and end cap on pipe?
Any chance you are going to run it on Roaders dyno with winn 8 ??
Yes Steve...a +4cc domed piston, back to the original CR651 cams to keep the ccp's in check, and the air cleaner and end cap I made. Those were the changes I made along with a different clutch this time.
My goal was to pick up the tq sooner with the end cap while not hurting the top end so much. I'm happy seeing it improved where I targeted my gain.
I don't have any plans to run it on a different dyno...I don't see any need to.
I'm sure Jim has it dialed in as good as possible. I wasn't predicting numbers...just looking to improve in the area I did.
Ray
Speaking of A/C
Taking the filter off the 90 deg homemade intake actually lost hp ray .
Surprised me
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
Speaking of A/C
Taking the filter off the 90 deg homemade intake actually lost hp ray .
Surprised me
I've also seen this before with a heavy breather. Also seen the decorative covers pick up a little hp when it seems it would be very restrictive.
Man Ray, that thing's got to be a blast to ride!!
Nice job.
~John
Quote from: No Cents on December 05, 2014, 07:07:09 AM
Yes Steve...a +4cc domed piston, back to the original CR651 cams to keep the ccp's in check, and the air cleaner and end cap I made. Those were the changes I made along with a different clutch this time.
My goal was to pick up the tq sooner with the end cap while not hurting the top end so much. I'm happy seeing it improved where I targeted my gain.
I don't have any plans to run it on a different dyno...I don't see any need to.
I'm sure Jim has it dialed in as good as possible. I wasn't predicting numbers...just looking to improve in the area I did.
Ray
Its not a numbers thing really I have been asked a few times on 7 vs 8 thats all. And being that other shop has 8 its just info for me and they are in N OH. . Nothing meant by it .. :up: And yes the TQ curve is a vast improvement or the other on the sheet. :scoot:
Good job Ray. Looks like you got what you were after with exhaust cap.
thank you Jason
Ray
Quote from: vdop on December 05, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
Speaking of A/C
Taking the filter off the 90 deg homemade intake actually lost hp ray .
Surprised me
I've also seen this before with a heavy breather. Also seen the decorative covers pick up a little hp when it seems it would be very restrictive.
Interesting . Thanks for the input .
I had never seen where taking just the filter off the 90 deg elbow lost hp .
I have seen where taking the 90 deg and the filter lost hp.
I have seen a couple that the 90 deg elbow killed hp . The 90 deg elbow needs massaged a little on some HPI 58's . I think it's more of a casting thing on the elbow .
My best stage 1's are with the heavy breather .
I would like to try one of Gary Williams 90's on my bike .
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: vdop on December 05, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
Speaking of A/C
Taking the filter off the 90 deg homemade intake actually lost hp ray .
Surprised me
I've also seen this before with a heavy breather. Also seen the decorative covers pick up a little hp when it seems it would be very restrictive.
Interesting . Thanks for the input .
I had never seen where taking just the filter off the 90 deg elbow lost hp .
I have seen where taking the 90 deg and the filter lost hp.
I have seen a couple that the 90 deg elbow killed hp . The 90 deg elbow needs massaged a little on some HPI 58's . I think it's more of a casting thing on the elbow .
My best stage 1's are with the heavy breather .
I would like to try one of Gary Williams 90's on my bike .
now that you mention it I have to take that back. I was thinking of removing the elbow also like you mentioned, not just the filter. Same here on the stage 1s.
Quote from: vdop on December 05, 2014, 10:20:04 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 10:12:46 AM
Quote from: vdop on December 05, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
Speaking of A/C
Taking the filter off the 90 deg homemade intake actually lost hp ray .
Surprised me
I've also seen this before with a heavy breather. Also seen the decorative covers pick up a little hp when it seems it would be very restrictive.
Interesting . Thanks for the input .
I had never seen where taking just the filter off the 90 deg elbow lost hp .
I have seen where taking the 90 deg and the filter lost hp.
I have seen a couple that the 90 deg elbow killed hp . The 90 deg elbow needs massaged a little on some HPI 58's . I think it's more of a casting thing on the elbow .
My best stage 1's are with the heavy breather .
I would like to try one of Gary Williams 90's on my bike .
now that you mention it I have to take that back. I was thinking of removing the elbow also like you mentioned, not just the filter. Same here on the stage 1s.
VDOP
have you done any testing with the S&S dual filter unit? I have only run one and it was on my own bike and saw no increase with no filters and a slight decrease removing them. Not a big big though at the time.
VDOP
have you done any testing with the S&S dual filter unit? I have only run one and it was on my own bike and saw no increase with no filters and a slight decrease removing them. Not a big big though at the time.
[/quote]
Only once on a 120r. Wasn't intended for the 58mm and had horrible mufflers that made for a very strange curve so it's hard to say how the a/c did.
We saw no difference on the dual filter unit with or without the filters on my T124.
At the time the dyno operator thought the filters might be restricting airflow, was not the case.
I'm still running them 60,000 klms later. Buffalo
Quote from: No Cents on December 05, 2014, 05:48:22 AM
:up:
Thanks guys!
I'm very pleased to see the torque come in sooner and higher with the end cap.
I can't wait to ride it with it being properly tuned.
I knew the old butt dyno could feel a difference...it just goes to show that sometimes I get lucky and come up with a good idea. :hyst:
Ray
What you came up with was amazing for someone without a dyno . :up:
You might have mentioned it earlier in your thread . But. It sounds like a old DT 466 turbo whistling between gears .
I like it . Has a cool sound to it .
but Jim...I do have a dyno...it's called my butt :doh: :hyst:
I started with a 1.850" center opening in the end cap knowing I would have to make it bigger as I went. I instantly knew it wasn't what I was looking for when I rode it the first time. Each time I opened the center hole up bigger and rode it I could tell I was making progress and headed in the right direction.
With the final 2.400" opening the bike seemed happiest with way more torque right off idle it felt and the sound of the pipe was back closer to it being uncapped again. I knew it was time to stop making the center hole bigger and let you spin it on the drum and see if it made any difference. I'm glad I stopped where I did.
Ray
By chance is there a tuned pull with and without the end cap? I just completed a hooker muffler tune with the tunable inserts and its very cool to see how you can effect the power curve. Its not anywhere as bad azz as your build but even a 103 with a 204 cam I could move the tq around some. Again very nice curve :up: My 124 does not hit that soon.. at least right now any ways :wink: Gives me something to get done here soon.
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
run 34...old tune with -2's with "no" end cap
run 38...current set up with "no" end cap
run 31...current set up "with the end cap"
[attach=0]
Ray
Here you go Steve.
Awesome job Ray and Stroker!! Man, :bike: you nailed for sure!!
Thanks Durwood I missed that I looked the old -2 part and miss read that. WOW that is super nice and a great improvement..
Quote from: Durwood on December 05, 2014, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
run 34...old tune with -2's with "no" end cap
run 38...current set up with "no" end cap
run 31...current set up "with the end cap"
[attach=0]
Ray
Here you go Steve.
The question is
Was the run #38 tuned with no end cap or just removed the end cap and did a run with the tune that was in there from run #31?
Quote from: Buffalo on December 05, 2014, 11:26:46 AM
We saw no difference on the dual filter unit with or without the filters on my T124.
This motor (124 Axtell motor) also showed no difference in the dyno readings with/without the filters.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo51/jmorton10_photo/th_newbiike_zps7af43077.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/jmorton10_photo/media/newbiike_zps7af43077.jpg.html)
~John
WOW Ray that's Walking the Dog,That's a complete plan from Beginning to End,You were on a man on a mission,And thanks for the Great info along the way...... :wink:
Now be Careful when you Twist on it,make sure you have your Harness hooked,Looks like it will be needed..... :hyst:
Hats off to Jim for another great tune..... :up:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 05, 2014, 02:52:46 PM
Quote from: Durwood on December 05, 2014, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
run 34...old tune with -2's with "no" end cap
run 38...current set up with "no" end cap
run 31...current set up "with the end cap"
[attach=0]
Ray
Here you go Steve.
The question is
Was the run #38 tuned with no end cap or just removed the end cap and did a run with the tune that was in there from run #31?
Yes it was retuned @ WOT
Awesome job Ray! Excellent tune Jim! I'm not surprised at all! :up: :up:
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 04:21:03 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 05, 2014, 02:52:46 PM
Quote from: Durwood on December 05, 2014, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
run 34...old tune with -2's with "no" end cap
run 38...current set up with "no" end cap
run 31...current set up "with the end cap"
[attach=0]
Ray
Here you go Steve.
The question is
Was the run #38 tuned with no end cap or just removed the end cap and did a run with the tune that was in there from run #31?
Yes it was retuned @ WOT
Exactly what we have come to count on from you, I just did not want to assume anything.
What is the static compression ratio now?
What is the actual CCP on Jim's gauge?
Hi No Cents You may now have to repaint to the new Duracell "high energy" red/black combo.
Congrats on a great selection of goodies and the cap performance made it all show up in spades!
Buffalo
Quote from: turboprop on December 05, 2014, 03:36:22 AM
Any feedback on how your new Scorpion low-profile clutch is working?
here is the gear ratio graph
and it cranked 202 ccp on my gauge
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP.png.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP7.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP7.png.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP9.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP9.png.html)
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP8.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP8.png.html)
with and without end cap
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP1.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP1.png.html)
the first two runs are as you delivered it ray.
the third run is what it did after i applied the corrections obtained on those two first two runs
disregard the 143 header :embarrassed: or maybe it is a sign :crook:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY1ST3.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY1ST3.png.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 05, 2014, 08:09:58 PM
with and without end cap
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP1.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/RAY124651CAMSENDCAP1.png.html)
And Ray did this with nothing more than a butt dyno. Incredible.
Nothing new to add but enjoying the heck out of reading this. Curious about the 143 coming up on the dyno next. Home is a long ways from Illinois but it sure is tempting to haul my bike cross country to get the same expertise in tuning. I'm sure Paul in Idaho can work magic as well, just good to see what Jim is capable of. Awesome read Ray, congrats on your build and thanks for keeping us in the loop. Congrats with recent family events as well.
Jim...all I can say is you never seize to amaze me with your tuning talents!
I must say after the way it was deliver, and what it looks like after you got done tuning it is....WOW !!! :koolaid:
I'm elated with my final results you got out of it for me...and I can't wait to ride it now.
202 ccp's is right where I thought it would land. I like it. :smilep:
Very nice job my friend ! :beer:
Ray
Quote from: CVOThunder on December 05, 2014, 09:40:03 PM
Nothing new to add but enjoying the heck out of reading this. Curious about the 143 coming up on the dyno next. Home is a long ways from Illinois but it sure is tempting to haul my bike cross country to get the same expertise in tuning. I'm sure Paul in Idaho can work magic as well, just good to see what Jim is capable of. Awesome read Ray, congrats on your build and thanks for keeping us in the loop. Congrats with recent family events as well.
this is how it stacks up against the ole 143 er
pretty respectful @ 1.225 HP per CI.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/CANNEDHEAT.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/CANNEDHEAT.png.html)
damn it Jim...you just had to go and show me that comparison...now I just want to lay my head down and cry :cry:
Just when I was starting to get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside about mine. :hyst:
I guess they both aren't too awfully bad when you put into perspective that they came from a couple of back woods country boys from Ohio. :wink:
Ray
added later:
Don't get me wrong...I'm still very happy with mine.
Just giving you two boys sompin to talk about on the ride over . :hyst:
You have no reason to :cry:
The 124 er almost caught big brother in the middle .
...but you know Randy...I'll never hear the end of it now.
He will be :kick: me and :hyst: at me all the way there.
It will be a :potstir: fest for him all the way there now. :doh:
...but I'm just 8-up enough to listen...but I'm not buying one of those 143ci crate motors. [attach=0]
Ray
Jay...I was able to get the other side of the sprocket painted up yesterday.
It didn't turn out too bad. I can live with it.
I will weigh it against the one on the bike right now and see how much rotating weight it drops.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2014, 04:30:35 AM
...but you know Randy...I'll never hear the end of it now.
He will be :kick: me and :hyst: at me all the way there.
It will be a :potstir: fest for him all the way there now. :doh:
...but I'm just 8-up enough to listen...but I'm not buying one of those 143ci crate motors. [attach=0]
Ray
Doesn't have to be like that, it's your truck and trailer right? :kick: his ass out half way to Jims, at least you'll beat him to GET the bikes.
Hi No Cents I wouldn't really compare your 124 against Randys 143/144! As I understand it you are working towards competing in the 124 inch Bagger class, something the 144 can't do!!!
This is amazing performance from the Duracell, the right components in the right package delivering really great power! I especially like what the end cap did to bring up the torque in the bottom without affecting the upper end. :up:
Looking forward to your "next" 8up steps, having a super sensitive "butt" dyno is helping you too.
:bike: Buffalo
Nice work Ray. I really admire the performance gains from the endcap. Sweet! :up:
I just wanted to say thank you to Ray, Randy, and Jim for all the info provided on this thread and the rest of the comments everyone has made. This one thread is the epitome of what a great forum should be. I look forward each day to see what else Ray has done or is planning to do. It gives all of us hope and cuts the learning curve way down of trial and error.
Ray, this thread I would say is the most inept thread of one mans dreams I can ever remember reading. Keep'm coming, the American dream is alive and well at HTT!
Smarty
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2014, 04:47:01 AM
Jay...I was able to get the other side of the sprocket painted up yesterday.
It didn't turn out too bad. I can live with it.
I will weigh it against the one on the bike right now and see how much rotating weight it drops.
[attach=0]
Ray
I like it, nice job! Now if I could find someone to cut one for me with my rim design? Trademark issues though.
Hold on tight!
With those numbers and the gearing you have, it will be a blast!
Looks good. Nice work guys. Don't fret over your buddies bigger numbers Ray. Line em' up.
He may go up in smoke while you blow by. :chop:
Outstanding Ray, Jim!
Cudos for your instincts on the end cap and getting the results you did. Sure learned a lot following this along and enjoyed every minute. Great job!
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO LAUNCH THIS THING AT THE DRAGS? DROP THE CLUTCH AT IDLE, ROLL ON THE THROTTLE AND GRANNY SHIFT IT? WAIT, WITH THAT MUCH TORQUE DOWN THAT LOW IT'LL PROBABLY WHEELIE ANY WAY. MAYBE IF YOU START IT IN GEAR? HAVE FUN!
:up:
thanks men!
Randy and I just got back from making the round trip to Strokejlk's. It's dark outside and only 39*...so we decided to just back the trailer with the bikes still strapped down on it into the barn for over night. Tomorrow it's suppose to be in the mid to upper 40's.
My bike will be hitting the street in the morning for it's 1st tuned ride. I can't wait.
Randy will probably sleep until noon...the trip wore him out :hyst: just kidding...I bet he's over here when the roosters crow to unleash that 143ci Canned Heat monster. :wink: Hell...he had to start it on the trailer and hear it run before he went home.
My bet is he will be dreaming about it tonight. :wink:
Ray
Quotehad to start it on the trailer and hear it run before he went home.
what ..he didn't do another burnout on the trailer. literally brought up wood !
wish i wood of had the video going for that. :scoot:
a burnout on your concrete pad...check :up:
a burnout while it's loaded on my trailer...check :up:
I wonder what tomorrow will bring [attach=0]
I can already smell the rubber burning :hyst:
Ray
Come on fellows all i did was let the clutch out :hyst: :hyst:
just had some BW3 wings...yum
full belly and ready for bed :hyst:
I can't wait to see your face tomorrow when you twist the wick on that rubber laying machine.
I just might have to film this action. :wink:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2014, 05:50:56 PM
just had some BW3 wings...yum
full belly and ready for bed :hyst:
I can't wait to see your face tomorrow when you twist the wick on that rubber laying machine.
I just might have to film this action. :wink:
Ray
:up:ay. And ask him to run a vid on you too so we can hear that cap in action. :potstir:
So let me get this straight
124" with a CCP of 202psi
Over 125lbs TQ at 2500 rpm
144.5 HP/TQ At 5252 rpm
Over 150HP/150TQ peak
1.23 HP/CI by 6050 rpm
EPC of .496, BMEP of 196.25
All on pump gas
And you built this in your barn, assembled your own exhaust, and designed as well as built your own intake and exhaust end cap.
You need to patent that barn and sell franchises, you'd be a millionaire.
Great job Ray you are a true motor head in every sense of the word. Thanks for sharing this great thread with us so that we could join you in this journey every step of the way.
My hat's off to all the pros involved in supplying parts and tuning on this project as well.
yep :embarrassed:
thank you Eric! :up:
Ray
A thirst for knowledge and not being afraid to fail is what I'm feeling. Good on you Ray!
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 06, 2014, 06:17:52 PM
So let me get this straight
124” with a CCP of 202psi
Over 125lbs TQ at 2500 rpm
144.5 HP/TQ At 5252 rpm
Over 150HP/150TQ peak
1.23 HP/CI by 6050 rpm
EPC of .496, BMEP of 196.25
All on pump gas
And you built this in your barn, assembled your own exhaust, and designed as well as built your own intake and exhaust end cap.
You need to patent that barn and sell franchises, you’d be a millionaire.
Great job Ray you are a true motor head in every sense of the word. Thanks for sharing this great thread with us so that we could join you in this journey every step of the way.
My hat’s off to all the pros involved in supplying parts and tuning on this project as well.
If I can add, ..... It's just like hangin out in your shop with you. We all got to know each other a little more too :hug:.
My initial test ride review after the tune was completed.
I don't really know what or how to say this...but here goes.
It starts instantly when you hit the button...it seems the engine doesn't even turn over a whole revolution before it fires up, it idles thru warm up perfectly, and at idle the engine seems a lot smoother with less vibration.
You throw your leg over it and let the clutch out in 1st gear and casually roll up thru rpm's and shift @ 3K...and it seems to be just begging for more.
Cruising along in 2nd gear @ 2k if you grab a hand full of throttle...it just goes skyward once the back tire stops spinning and it's hooked up. :smilep: it's never done that before...that was a new one for me.
I noticed I was having a hard time staying under all the posted speed limits signs when I would look down at the speedometer. It goes up thru the rpm's faster than it ever has before. It's almost like I'm short shifting it now...but when you look at the tach...it's beyond my normal shift points from before. I thought I was just rolling along in sixth gear once and when I looked I was going over 80 mph...with the throttle barely cracked open...so you know me. I grabbed another handful and twisted the wick harder on it and it buried the speedo in what seemed to be the blink of an eye. I was going so fast that my eyes were watering so badly, I had to get out of it...and it was still pulling HARD when I did!
It's a pure joy to ride...and not even close to what the previous version of what the Duracell was.
Jim (strokerjlk)...you sure can tune 'em my friend!!! :wink:
I wished you would of had the chance to ride this thing and feel the difference it made for yourself.
Ray
Maybe he did and ain't sayin. :smiled: Any new snakes on the road by his place? :missed:
Just back from deer camp and see your results. Great job Ray and Jim!
Ray you said it seems to run smoother, What do you think was the big factor with this, The lower comp. maybe, or the cam Spec.?????? My 131 shakes dam good till about 3000 RPMs than it is smooth as Glass, I take it as big pistons and crank........ :wink:
Quote...so you know me. I grabbed another handful and twisted the wick harder on it and it buried the speedo in what seemed to be the blink of an eye. I was going so fast that my eyes were watering so badly, I had to get out of it...and it was still pulling HARD when I did!
Not to be a buzz kill but maybe it's time to review tires, brakes, suspension, swingarm and neck bearings?
Just sayin'
Mark
Ray, You and Jim are killing me. Everytime I ready this thread I want to tear back into my motor and do more work. You barn work always impresses the poo outa me. That pipe looks like a work of art and it actually performs to match. I thought the end cap was going to choke you on the top end but that surprised me again. Keep up the good work. Let me know if you need another bike to park in the barn for tear down.
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on December 07, 2014, 12:16:46 PM
Quote...so you know me. I grabbed another handful and twisted the wick harder on it and it buried the speedo in what seemed to be the blink of an eye. I was going so fast that my eyes were watering so badly, I had to get out of it...and it was still pulling HARD when I did!
Not to be a buzz kill but maybe it's time to review tires, brakes, suspension, swingarm and neck bearings?
Just sayin'
Mark
Mark...most of that stuff has already been taken care of and crossed off the list, with the exception of a custom swing arm. I did add ceramic wheel bearings too.
Mike...the compression went up...not down. I would have to say I think it's the tune that smoothed it out because the engine vibrated pretty badly at idle with this latest change...until Jim tuned it. I'd say 75% of the vibration it had at idle is now gone. There is no noticeable vibration once your rolling...it smooth's out like a babies bottom. Before the tune I was looking into buying a Glide Pro front motor mount to see if it would help reduce the vibration at idle...but now I don't think I even need it.
Ray
Quote from: kd on December 07, 2014, 11:37:22 AM
Maybe he did and ain't sayin. :smiled: Any new snakes on the road by his place? :missed:
no kd...mine was actually still strapped down on the dyno when we got there.
Now when Jim rode Randy's bike...he might of took a little rubber off the rear tire for him :hyst:
Ray
Will you be doing a new thread on the trap door install soon?
probably not.
Ray
HighLiner, not a whole lot going on with the street door. Just another stronger aftermarket piece to replace the OEM.
I picked up a couple of Jes Custom Accents white faced oil & tranny temperature gauges for the old Duracell.
[attach=0]
Ray
Cool gauges! (Just don't be checkin the temp while the Duracell be flying :0
Just what I was looking to get for my own bike. Good thing you posted it up as I couldn't find one.
Quote from: 03NhHarley on December 07, 2014, 12:19:17 PM
Ray, You and Jim are killing me. Everytime I ready this thread I want to tear back into my motor and do more work. You barn work always impresses the poo outa me. That pipe looks like a work of art and it actually performs to match. I thought the end cap was going to choke you on the top end but that surprised me again. Keep up the good work. Let me know if you need another bike to park in the barn for tear down.
:agree:
I use the same gauges good product and you can lean over and check while riding,only takes a glance.Well made, liquid filled is the way to go.
I installed an oil filter relocation kit today on my bike.
It's a very nice high quality made kit.
No more oil messes at oil changes now.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
Ray
the front adapter
[attach=0]
very nice Ray, been thinking about doing the same thing. have you got a pic of the side of the bike with everything on it. ?
nice :up:
Yup I like it too,And no more mess!And the Gauges look great too.
Quote from: JohnCA58 on January 10, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
very nice Ray, been thinking about doing the same thing. have you got a pic of the side of the bike with everything on it. ?
Not right now John...I've got the back wheel off it to change out the sprocket. Monday I'm dropping off my hub spacer to have .025" machined off it.
What you see in those pictures is what you see with the kit installed. The rubber hoses can only be seen where it comes off the front adapter and where it comes out behind the primary going to the filter. They tuck up nicely and run along the inside of the frame rail.
Ray
Nice work Ray :up:
Who makes the kit?
Moore Sensible Products
Quote from: No Cents on January 10, 2015, 08:25:44 PM
the front adapter
[attach=0]
Ray you didnt get the oil cooler?.. Its a nice unit ...I put his relocate kit and cooler on a few months ago and is a really nice kit...Works really well
No not yet. Dan sent me an e-mail the other day and said if I wanted to add his oil cooler to the bike...he would take good care of me.
Right now I don't know if I need it. I'm using the factory HD oil cooler with the Big Sky fans behind it and I'm running the Liqui Moly 10w60 synthetic and the hottest I seen my 124" last summer was 214*...without using the fans.
But I will keep Dan's oil cooler in mind...it looks like a nice piece also.
Ray
I'd think the fins on that filter housing oughta take some heat away. :up:
Quote from: No Cents on January 11, 2015, 04:12:20 PM
No not yet. Dan sent me an e-mail the other day and said if I wanted to add his oil cooler to the bike...he would take good care of me.
Right now I don't know if I need it. I'm using the factory HD oil cooler with the Big Sky fans behind it and I'm running the Liqui Moly 10w60 synthetic and the hottest I seen my 124" last summer was 214*...without using the fans.
But I will keep Dan's oil cooler in mind...it looks like a nice piece also.
Ray
Fair enough..i have the wards fans and jagg cooler and see right about 190 ..that was running everything right about 85 -90 degrees outside temp in traffic on 95 in stop and go during rush hour...i was pleased to say the least
Quote from: No Cents on January 11, 2015, 04:12:20 PM
No not yet. Dan sent me an e-mail the other day and said if I wanted to add his oil cooler to the bike...he would take good care of me.
Right now I don't know if I need it. I'm using the factory HD oil cooler with the Big Sky fans behind it and I'm running the Liqui Moly 10w60 synthetic and the hottest I seen my 124" last summer was 214*...without using the fans.
But I will keep Dan's oil cooler in mind...it looks like a nice piece also.
Ray
Is that the same Dan that Shelley banned from the HTT few years ago ?
I believe so.
Ray
Too bad those connections don't come crimped.
I don't see how they could come crimped on both ends...maybe on one end. :nix: You have to route the hoses between the primary and the frame along the frame rail going over the cross member. There is no way either end of the adaptors would fit through that space. The hose clamps that are sent with the kit are high quality.
Ray
Is there enough room to run that remote filter with the 143/144 oil line routing?
:nix: I don't know for sure Robin.
Randy stopped over yesterday to look at it.
I honestly think it would because the oil lines for the 143/144 crate engine are tucked up following the inner primary cover and this oil filter relocation kit the hose follow the inside of the frame rail under the outer primary cover.
Ray
Good to know. I'm still thinking on the next build...
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 12, 2015, 09:49:54 AM
Good to know. I'm still thinking on the next build...
Rolex ? 143 ? ..... Rolex 143 ? :scratch:
Just kidding . Don't go hocking the watch .
Lol
a Timex will do Robin...get the 143! :hyst:
Ray
Robin, I did see that Rolex on FB, very nice watch Gail's HD gave you. :up:
Quote from: strokerjlk on January 12, 2015, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 12, 2015, 09:49:54 AM
Good to know. I'm still thinking on the next build...
Rolex ? 143 ? ..... Rolex 143 ? :scratch:
Just kidding . Don't go hocking the watch .
:hyst: We could arrange a mugging. :wink:
Quote from: JohnCA58 on January 12, 2015, 03:57:20 PM
Robin, I did see that Rolex on FB, very nice watch Gail's HD gave you. :up:
I seen it too...and it is a nice watch...and more than likely well deserved. :up:
...but Robin...a 143"er with a pro charger should be all you would ever need :potstir:
I will not be tempted. Just say no. Really.
I sold the panhead to start the shop process. Can't spend garage $ on toys. Shop $ can be spent on concrete, building materials, wiring, lights, tools and shop supplies. And a 250i.
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 12, 2015, 05:54:22 PM
I will not be tempted. Just say no. Really.
I sold the panhead to start the shop process. Can't spend garage $ on toys. Shop $ can be spent on concrete, building materials, wiring, lights, tools and shop supplies. And a 250i.
:up: I have a line on a 250I if you're in need of one. Pm me if interested
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 12, 2015, 05:54:22 PM
I will not be tempted. Just say no. Really.
I sold the panhead to start the shop process. Can't spend garage $ on toys. Shop $ can be spent on concrete, building materials, wiring, lights, tools and shop supplies. And a 250i.
...good plan! :up:
I was just kidding with you on the 143/pro charger :wink:
Ray
Sure ya were ;)
I installed the Glide Pro front motor mount today...then I took the bike out for a short ride around the block beings it was only 40* outside.
I must say it made a nice improvement to the bike. I could instantly tell it had less vibration at idle and basically no vibration at all once the bike was moving.
I give the Glide Pro front motor mount 3 thumbs up. :up: :up: :up:
Ray
You keep screwing me up by changing your avatar!
Good to know on the glide pro, right now running the 2nd gen improved HD mount. First gen broke years ago.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 15, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
You keep screwing me up by changing your avatar!
sorry...I was bore...it's winter.
I fixed it. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on January 15, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 15, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
You keep screwing me up by changing your avatar!
sorry...I was bore...it's winter.
I fixed it. :hyst:
Don't change it on my account! I usually figure it out eventually. Cams are exciting, but so is Gomer. And Sham Rock's avatar is pretty good, if I've got that right.
:hyst:
this is the one I had on the a few day ago. Good old Snidley Whiplash.
[attach=0]
:agree:
Sham Rock's avatars are in a league of their own :up:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 15, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
Sham Rock's avatars are in a league of their own :up:
Ray
:up:
I now it's old news around here but how do you like your chain drive?
I like it a lot.
I just changed my rear sprocket out a few days ago from what I was running to one I fabbed up out of a saw tooth blank sprocket to match my wheels.
It dropped 1 1/2 pounds off the weight of the old steel sprocket.
old sprocket
[attach=0]
my fabbed up sprocket
[attach=1]
Ray
here is my old belt pulley and one of the sprocket saw tooth blanks I started with and one after I cut it out to match my pulley.
I painted the sprocket to give it that contrast look of my wheels and the old pulley.
[attach=0]
Ray
after yesterdays 50* temperature outside...Randy and I were able to get our bikes out for a nice little winter time ride. Next weeks forecast doesn't look like I'll be able to sneak in another ride.
So...I guess it's time to put the bike up on the lift and change out the tranny trap door and put in the Baker heavy duty throw out bearing in too.
This will be treading new waters for me because I haven't ever pulled the HD six speed tranny apart before.
Here goes nothing I guess.
Ray
When ya'll do the Baker throw out bearing try there inner clutch ramp.
It ISN'T A EASY PULL MODE!!!!!!
Different angle for the clutch ramp!!
I like it!!!!!!
:gob:
I got the trap door on today...but I'll need to pick up two new main shaft and counter shaft nylon locking nuts up tomorrow.
les was kind enough to give me the part number for them.
This was definitely a learning experience for me. I actually tapped the main shaft and counter shaft on too far and the tranny wouldn't spin by hand once I had it back in the housing. I gave the shafts a few taps backwards toward the primary side and it spins like butter.
When I looked in my service manual it showed a spacer between the shaft and the trap door bearing on the back side of the trap door...but my shafts didn't have this spacer when I tapped them out of the stock trap door for some reason. :nix:
Anyone witnessed this before?
Ray
this is where I called it a night.
[attach=0]
Ray
Nice work as usual Ray.
Lookin good!
I have done 2 of these. Neither one had any spacers that I can recall. The first one was part of a Baker F6fF kit and the other was from Jim's. Both did a great job at minimizing the flex you feel in the clutch lever. Tried the Jim's hoping it would shift better because it also included the shift fork shafts that were supposed to be a improvement over the stock ones. That may be the case but they did not improve the shifting. Will probably go with the Baker smooth shift kit in the future.
That's what I like about Ray,NO rock left unturned,Just one hell Build from start to finish,always with great documentation or detail for All to see,Just Good stuff........... :up:
You don't use the spacers with the Baker trap door according to Baker directions. Most aftermarket trap doors use a wider bearing and the room on shafts are made with removing washer.
Quote from: No Cents on January 18, 2015, 05:11:51 PM
I got the trap door on today...but I'll need to pick up two new main shaft and counter shaft nylon locking nuts up tomorrow.
les was kind enough to give me the part number for them.
This was definitely a learning experience for me. I actually tapped the main shaft and counter shaft on too far and the tranny wouldn't spin by hand once I had it back in the housing. I gave the shafts a few taps backwards toward the primary side and it spins like butter.
When I looked in my service manual it showed a spacer between the shaft and the trap door bearing on the back side of the trap door...but my shafts didn't have this spacer when I tapped them out of the stock trap door for some reason. :nix:
Anyone witnessed this before?
Ray
:scratch: Won't the shafts pull right back into the door when the nuts are put on and torqued?
Jims billet trap we just installed. Straight forward swap and it has solid shifter rods. I do not know if that really matters. Baker or Jims both work very well.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/20141223_104610_zpsc79aefbf.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/20141223_104610_zpsc79aefbf.jpg.html)
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 20, 2015, 06:32:13 AM
Quote from: No Cents on January 18, 2015, 05:11:51 PM
I got the trap door on today...but I'll need to pick up two new main shaft and counter shaft nylon locking nuts up tomorrow.
les was kind enough to give me the part number for them.
This was definitely a learning experience for me. I actually tapped the main shaft and counter shaft on too far and the tranny wouldn't spin by hand once I had it back in the housing. I gave the shafts a few taps backwards toward the primary side and it spins like butter.
When I looked in my service manual it showed a spacer between the shaft and the trap door bearing on the back side of the trap door...but my shafts didn't have this spacer when I tapped them out of the stock trap door for some reason. :nix:
Anyone witnessed this before?
Ray
:scratch: Won't the shafts pull right back into the door when the nuts are put on and torqued?
Eric...I tapped the shafts out of the stock door using the stock nuts after I loosed them. This trashed the nylon nuts...which I didn't plan on re-using them.
When I installed the shafts into the George's Garages trap door I used a soft rubber mallet and tapped them gently in. I didn't have any new nylon nuts to pull them in with at that time. I found I tapped them in too deep and the gears were up against the trap door and wouldn't spin freely. :doh: ...this was the first time I ever had a six speed tranny apart. It was a learning process for me.
I went to Harley the next day and tried to buy the two nylon locking nuts I needed (35078-79) for the shafts. They only had one in stock for $2.29...so I took it.
On the way home from the dealership I stopped by the local fastener shop and they had the same exact nylon locking nuts for $0.45 apiece. So I bought a couple more there.
When I got home I pulled the gear set back out of the tranny housing and torqued the nylon locking nuts down while I had it sitting on the work bench. The gear set spun like butter this time. I buttoned everything back up when I got home from work today and I took it out for a little ride around the block. Everything felt good.
I did notice that the Baker heavy duty throw out bearing that I put in while I had it apart...has gave it a different feel to the clutch lever. It has a what I will call a smoother/stronger feel to it. I like it.
Ray
I'm having some withdrawals. Come on NoCents, give us some juicy stuff you got planned.
yeah Ray what's going on over there in that barn :pop:
nothing I'm willing to share right now :embarrassed:
...but you know me...I can't stay idle.
Ray
I heard he was going to put one of those 30" wheels on the front of his bike.
no way Nick! [attach=0]
To each their own...but those 30" front wheels are not for me.
Ray
I worked 22 straight hours from Friday morning @ 7am to 5am this Saturday morning. I took a 5 hour cat nap when I got home and when I woke up I decided to go out to the barn and get the winter oil out of the bike and put in some fresh 10W60 Liqui Moly. I must say the Moore Sensible oil filter relocation system is the bomb. It makes for a "no mess" oil change with the oil filter relocated back behind the rear passenger foot peg. If anyone is tired of the oil messes that are associated with the oil filter in it's stock location...this is a very nice option that will eliminate the oil mess. I also changed my NPT sump plug out to the Dimple magnetic sump drain plug. Now the bike has the magnetic Dimple drain plugs in all the holes.
This past winter I upgraded to a better tranny door (Georges Garage) and I put in the Baker heavy duty throw out bearing while it was apart. I really like both of these upgrades after I had a chance today and take the bike out for a nice long ride. It shifts smooth and the clutch pull is more to my liking with the Baker throw out bearing.
This was my first opportunity to ride the bike for any extended time after being re-tuned right before winter hit. The bike will lift the front tire in the first two gears at will it seems...at no matter what rpm I'm at. Just grab a handful of throttle and hang on. I didn't try too
hard to raise the tire in third gear...but it probably would if I got serious with it.
This latest edition to the bike this past fall has put some serious fun factor into it now.
The Moore Sensible oil filter relocation kit
[attach=0]
Ray
:up: Plus one on the filter relocation. I used to dread removing the filter. Now it is 100% mess free.
Looks great Ray,Glad to hear you got out for a Spin,We have had a few people out up this way,and there has been some wrecks also,we still have a bunch of salt and sand on the roads,And I have been working on changing oil and going over a few things on the Scooters,And maybe in a few weeks or so take a trip over to Bob's and pick up the Rooster Cruiser,And see what the Master Mind did over winter................ :wink:
Mike...it rained around here a few days last week pretty hard...so the roads are fairly clean of the salt and debris.
It got up into the mid 70's yesterday so I had my 1st chance for an extended ride. I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to finally get it out and put it in the wind after the long winters wait. The bike runs fantastic with the changes I made late last fall and it sure does help the sole to be able to finally get it out for some riding time.
I can't wait to see what Bob has done to your bike for you. Bob has those mad scientists skills going on. I bet your going to love what he has done to it for you. :up:
Ray
The forecast for today was to be in the 70's.
I checked my mileage at 19824 miles and I put 'er in the wind early this morning.
I build this 124 engine and the odometer had 11,827 miles on it.
I hit a mile stone on the odometer today with it.
[attach=0]
the bike is running fantastic!
Ray
Congrats Ray ! Finally got some decent weather here today and got out for 80 miles myself .
If I could keep my fingers off of it long enough, mine would be up there with yours Ray.
Spends most of it's time on the lift and not on the road.
I'll get it figured out one of these years. :wink:
SWEET :up: :up:
Any plans to go back to the track this year???
Screw the odometer Ray, get to the track and ET that Copper Top. .Just messin with ya.
that's the plan.
I'm working on getting it track worthy. :potstir:
Ray
I've had the bike up on the lift for a week as of tomorrow waiting on some SE 1.725" non roller rocker arms to replace the 1.7 Baisley roller rocker arms that I was trying. Thank you forum member "fidel" for helping out with a new set of SE 1.725 non rollers. :up:
As some of you might already know...I had a valve train noise I wasn't happy with after my last changes. After last Sundays ride I put it up on the lift and pulled the tank and rocker box lids off for a closer inspection. I found the Baisley rollers were riding on the valve stem wrong. It was my fault for buying the used Baisley rollers and thinking they would work in my engine. Like a dumbazz...I didn't check to see how they were riding on the valve stems when I installed them. The Baisley rollers were not made for my engine...so don't think in any way the Baisley rollers are bad. Actually they are very nice pieces. These were just riding too far forward on the valve stems...and I think this is what I was hearing.
I'm going to replace the Baisley 1.7 rollers with the SE non roller 1.725's and change out my 1.625 S&S rollers on the exhausts with my stock non roller 1.625's to see what the valve train sounds like with non rollers. I'll make damn sure that these rocker arms ride perfectly on the valve stems.
Don Dorfman was kind enough to send me a set of his performance lifters for me to try also. I pulled the S&S Premium lifters out and installed Don's lifters. My hope is that with these changes my valve train ends up being strong and quiet.
I also developed another cracked weld in my pipe at the muffler/collector. Last time I had a 1" wide strip of stainless welded on the back third of the pipe for more support on the weld and had another bead ran around the rest of the pipe. With it cracking again at the bead...I went ahead and had another 1" wide patch welded all the way around the rest of the pipe after an initial bead where it cracked was re-welded. It lost some of it's curb appeal...but hopefully it made it stronger at this weak link.
I also took my end cap out I made and tried to lighten it up some. I drilled holes around the face of it removing what material I could to make it lighter.
The eta on the SE non roller arms is Tuesday. So I will know by Wednesday if going to these non rollers will make me happy.
end cap mod
[attach=0]
patched pipe
[attach=1]
Ray
Hell Ray you had way to many great looking parts on there anyway,how do you like the oil filter relocation kit,I have one with the cooler and I can not Believe how cool it runs,after two 70 mph trips for about 70 miles I can still grab the filter and hold on to it and not burn my hand,when I get back out on it I'm going to take my IR gun with me to see where it is at,still can't Believe how cool it runs........ :wink:
Maybe the new Pipe and cam's might be helping......... :emoGroan:
Good luck with the new Rockers, A minor setback but a lesson well learned, at least you found it others might have told you they all do that............ :potstir:
Mike...I love the oil filter relocation kit. :up:
It makes for no mess oil changes and I do believe it helps lower oil temp's a little bit with the filter being back away from the engines radiant heat. I will be eventually buying one of those oil coolers too.
Right now I've got a few other changes coming real soon to the bike that I hope will work out for me. :smiled:
After I get those changes paid for...and I have it up and running again I'll concentrate on getting one of those oil coolers.
Yeah it was my bad thinking I could just bolt a set of 1.7 Baisley rollers in my engine and they would work...I should of known better. I know they are mostly custom made for corrected geometry for Baisley's head work. I definitely should of checked them to see how they were riding on the valve stems when I installed them. It don't know why I didn't :doh: I know I looked at them when I bolted the supports in...but I didn't look at them after I adjusted the p/rods because I had already bolted on the rocker box lids...a definite brain fart on my end.
They were riding on the stem way too far forward.
[attach=0]
Ray
Lucky they didn't bend a valve and POP over... Lots of pressure on One side... Think?
Good change you are doing to try the Non rollers... Bet they will work good... That "over the top" roller would scare me at high RPM...
Have they been run Long that way?
signed....BUBBIE
BUBBIE...ever since I did the compression bump last year right before winter hit. It's a good thing I can't stand valve train noise and I had to investigate it.
I have less than 1,000 miles on it with the Baisley rollers on the intakes.
Ray
Are you changing rockers and lifters at same time?
yes Jason...I'm putting in the SE 1.725 non rollers on the intakes to replace the Baisley 1.7 rollers...and I'll be putting back in my factory stock 1.625 non rollers on the exhaust sides to replace the S&S 1.625 rollers.
I promised Don I would try his performance lifters that he sent me back in the winter the next time I had the engine apart. I am a man of my word and kept my promise. Don's lifters are already in the bike as we speak. I'm just waiting for the post office to deliver the SE non roller arms so I can button it back up.
If the valve train is quiet with the non rollers...I'll be pulling it back apart real soon to make a few more minor changes to the engine. :wink:
This should be interesting to see where it goes.
Ray
Have considered only changing one thing at a time (ie intake rockers), to isolate the effect of the changes?
Hi Ray
I understand your thinking with the intake rockers.
Just curious why you wouldn't leave the S&S rollers in for the exhaust side rather than going back to stock non rollers ?
Don't see a gain for the change .
I thought about that Ed...but with the stethoscope both exhaust rollers had a smooth scrolling sound to them. When I would move it to the intakes...it had a much harder ticking sound coming from both of them...and not so much of that scrolling sound I look for in a roller rocker arm. I'm pretty sure this is the noise I was hearing while riding the bike.
While I'm in waiting for the SE non rollers to show up...I was bored today so I went ahead and mocked up my factory non roller 1.625 ratio arms in the supports and put them in the engine. I adjusted the p/rods and they rode perfectly on the valve stems while rolling the engine thru it's revolutions. I pulled them back out and cleaned everything up real good and I put everything in zip lock baggies.
Once I get the 1.725's I'll put them in the supports and I'll check them to make sure they are not binding in any way. I'll bolt the supports back in again and adjust the p/rods. I'll check the gaps between the rocker arms to the supports once it's torqued down. If all is good I'll roll the engine thru it's revolutions checking to see how the 1.725's are riding on the intakes valve stems.
I've got my fingers crossed and I hope they ride on the valve stems as well as the factory exhaust arms did today.
98fxstc
mass weight reduction at the end of the arm.
Ray
Saw this and remembered your chain conversion.
https://youtu.be/tSVQbv9yi0s
We going to get some footage of the Duracell soon ?
Too bad you didnt take that bike for a ride with the oem non rollers in there. I am sure I am not the only one curious to know how much of a decrease in seat of the pants power was perceived.
I have not non-standard ratio rockers in the red bike, and while I am in there often, it would be nice to not have to be. This has got me thinking about doing some A-B dyno testing with a set of standard ratio rockers and whats in there now. Seriously, if it means a difference of 10 or 15 hp at 6,500, should I really care? I am inclined to think not. My engine does hit 6,500 from time to time, but rarely. But an extra season or two on the springs and guides, I'd give up some high rpm power for that. Just thinking out loud.
I don't think the ratio change would amount to 10 to 15 hp.I believe that the valve geometry will need correcting to run 1.7.I think it's like retarding your cam a a few degrees and add a little lift.
John
If your motor makes more power using a ratio rocker, opening a valve earlier and faster with a higher lift means your cylinder fill needs are off kilt by either having an inadequate head or a cam that's not the right fit. Using non rollers has the advantage of being hardened steel. While not leaving much loss of lift on the table because of deflection it also doesn't act like a spring board as the non hardened rollers do and their lighter. But had Ray put in non rollers with the error in geometry that he had he probably would have broken a valve spring or two and done some damage to the valves and guides. Rollers are very forgiving.
Ed...I didn't start the bike with the stock rocker arms on the intakes for the simple reason the bike was tuned last with the 1.7's on the intakes. I don't know if it would make any difference... I just decided to wait for the SE 1.725's.
Ray
the SE 1.725's non rollers are installed and I fired up the bike. It sounds 100% better than before. Don's performance lifters need a good pumping up...but the valve train is the quietest it's been so far. I couldn't take the bike out for a ride because it just stormed and the roads are wet. So I put the stethoscope on it and all four rocker arms have that scrolling sound I like to hear. No more ticking.
Here is what it sounds like right now. I'm sure it will get even quieter when I ride it and the lifters get fully pumped up.
This video was taken with the bike idling for maybe 15 minutes tops.
https://youtu.be/RyaVHu3u91c
Ray
Looks good Ray :up: Some how after your video The next was to learn about felting? WTH!
If your curious as to what Mr. Baisley does to correct the geometry, you can read about it here:
http://www.baisley.com/rocker_service.htm (http://www.baisley.com/rocker_service.htm)
Hey Ray,as usual well done :up: :up:
John
That vid makes me question how important rollers are at all and I wonder if Dan Baisley ever builds his rockers without a roller? Sort of similar to a flat tappet but further up the chain.
Way cool stuff No Cents. Harley performance mythology be damned!
How were Dons lifters after you'd run it and let it sit?
I really had no chance last night to get the lifters fully pumped up because of the wet roads. But I did ride it into work this morning. The lifters rattled on the cold start up for about 30 seconds and then got quieter. By the time I rode it the 10 miles to the shop...the valve train was super quiet. This afternoon when I get off work I plan to take the long way home and give the lifters a good chance to get fully pumped up. Then tomorrow mornings cold start up will tell the story.
Ray
Nothin to add as usual but Ray you have an amazing amount of patience and sense of detail. Love all the R&D! What gremlin bell you running on that beast?
Quote from: Soft 02 on May 12, 2015, 06:40:29 AM
Nothin to add as usual but Ray you have an amazing amount of patience and sense of detail. Love all the R&D! What gremlin bell you running on that beast?
POW/MIA gremlin bell
Ray,
I read your post about your rocker arm experiences.
Here is some information you may find helpful.
When using the Baisley corrected geometry roller rocker arms was the valve stem length changed or the rocker arm supports raised up using Baisley's .250" plates?
Below is some information I am working on for a Shovelhead web site that will explain what is actually happening with Mid-Lift and standard geometry on a Shovelhead.
There has been much published about Mid-Lift rocker geometry in automotive magazines and on the internet. Mid lift is the preferred method for setting up roller rocker arms on American vee eight engines.
If you look up the published rocker arm geometry articles you will see that the reference point used is from the center of the rocker arm pivot to the center of the roller and not from the center of the rocker arm pivot to the contact point on the valve stem.
What attracts people to the mid-lift geometry is the smaller travel mark they see on the valve stem when checking travel and the increase in valve lift. The mark can be seen by putting bluing or magic marker on the valve stem top and rotating the engine over. This mark could be to a rolling motion in a non roller rocker arm and is similar to gear teeth meshing or it could be caused by scrub. How do you know which?
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/661/CcrvGT.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/idCcrvGTj)
The mark shown when the valve end geometry is set to mid-lift is misleading for the following reason.
Using the example of mid-lift geometry on the Shovelhead would produce the following motion on the valve stem.
1) At the start of lift and up to half lift, the travel and the force is away from the rocker pivot center.
2) From half lift up to max lift, the travel is toward the rocker center.
3) From max lift down to half lift, the travel is away from the rocker center.
4) From half lift down to valve seated, the travel is toward the rocker center.
All this travel in just one valve lift cycle.
I will use an Andrews A2 spec that has a published max lift of .450" at the valve and a stock Shovel rocker arm, not a roller.
For a Shovelhead with the rocker arm set up for mid-lift geometry at the valve end of the rocker will produce the following motion using the A2 cam with a lift of .450".
• From valve on its seat up to half lift, the travel is outward .019".
• From half lift up to max lift, the travel is inward .019".
So far we have a total travel of .038" (seat to half lift .019" travel plus half lift to max lift .019" travel).
We are now at full lift and have to reverse the action and close the valve.
• From max lift down to half lift the travel is an additional .019".
Total travel now up to .057", .038" plus the .019".
• From half lift down to valve seated travel is an additional .019".
This added to the .057" travel equals .076" total back and forth travel not the .019" wide mark you see in the bluing or as wear mark on the valve stem.
This travel (.076") is only the total back and forth travel on the valve stem. SCRUB is the difference between the stem travel and the travel around the pad radius.
The two charts below compare stock Shovel rocker arm geometry (Left Chart) to a standard Shovelhead rocker arm set up for mid-lift geometry (Right Chart). Note, a stock constant radius pad is used in both examples.
First, about the information on the charts.
The Red Lines are the contact travel on the valve stem top. The valve stem height above the right angle line has the greatest effect on the movement patterns. The maximum value of the red line is the width of the travel mark you would visually see on top of the valve stem.
The Blue Lines are the contact travel on the rocker arm pad. The travel is linear for a constant radius pad. That is, the travel value is equal for each degree of rocker rotation.
At any time the Red and Blue travel lines are not on top of each other there is scrub. Scrub is like a tire spinning or skidding on the pavement. This wears the rocker pad and/or the valve tip. Scrub also increases wear of the valve stem and valve guide due to the side force acting on the valve stem. This force is either away from and/or towards the rocker arm shaft.
The 'Y' (Vertical) axis of the charts is travel in inches and the 'X' (Horizontal) axis is the percentage of maximum valve lift.
Listed on the charts are the following data...
• Total Scrub = The sum of the differences of the contact travel at the valve and rocker arm pad.
• Stem Height from the Right Angle Point. Stock Shovel is .114" above this right angle line and to get mid-lift geometry it needs to be .220" below the right angle line. This means you would have to shorten the valve stem .334" for mid-lift geometry using the stock Shovel rocker arm.
• Total Valve Lift. The total lift of the valve for a given degree rocker arm rotation.
• Total Rocker Rotation. In the charts, the same number of degrees for both the standard and the mid-lift geometries (18.40 Degrees) was used to represent the rotation that the standard .915" pushrod ball socket would input using the A2 cam.
The width of the travel mark on the valve stem would be equal to the maximum of the red line. The distance traveled on the valve stem for the standard Shovel geometry it is approximately .112" and for the mid-lift geometry it is approximately .019".
To total scrub for standard Shovel is .107" and for the mid-lift is a whopping .685"! A pad rocker arm would not last very long using mid-lift geometry due to the severe scrub. A roller can work due to its rolling action and a 52100 bearing race steel roller.
The max lift for the standard Shovel geometry is .450". For the mid-lift geometry is .464". That's .014" more lift for the mid-lift geometry.
My question is, why would you want to use bad geometry on the valve end of the rocker just to get .014" more lift? You could use a cam with higher lift, use EVO rockers, or weld up the pushrod socket and re machine it closer to the center of the rocker like the EVO (Move from stock .915" to .860").
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/673/9326c0.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/ip9326c0j)
To make it easy to see the scrub, the next charts have the area between the two curves colored in red.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/538/1b7735.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/ey1b7735j)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NpzU4pGjc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKY3scPIMd8#ws)
Another of an old NASCAR engine at 7000 rpm. Note how the center of the roller pin moves back and forth.
https://youtube.com/devicesupport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKY3scPIMd8#ws)
Here is a production BMW Motorcycle at 14,000 rpm. Note no roller between cam and follower and also no roller between the follower and valve stem.
https://youtube.com/devicesupport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKY3scPIMd8#ws)
A naturally aspirated F1 146.45 cubic inch V8 that made 5.3 horse power per cubic inch and has a max RPM of 20,000 (YES 20,000!) using a follower with out rollers. It had two 1.626" diameter intake valves per cylinder that were lifted to .680". Note... It doesn't use a Desmodromic valve train (Mechanically Open and Close) to control the valve but uses an air spring instead of a mechanical steel spring. See example below.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/908/ZtvQu7.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/p8ZtvQu7j)
Hope this helps you with your understanding of valve train geometry.
Ron
Quote from: EngineNut on May 13, 2015, 05:20:36 PM
• From valve on its seat up to half lift, the travel is outward .019".
• From half lift up to max lift, the travel is inward .019".
So far we have a total travel of .038" (seat to half lift .019" travel plus half lift to max lift .019" travel).
We are now at full lift and have to reverse the action and close the valve.
• From max lift down to half lift the travel is an additional .019".
Total travel now up to .057", .038" plus the .019".
• From half lift down to valve seated travel is an additional .019".
This added to the .057" travel equals .076" total back and forth travel
I'm fixin' to go to work in a minute so it'll be morning before I get to look through your post again, but it looks at first glance like you're adding .038 again when in fact it's not additional distance travel but merely retracing the initial .038. So .038
is the total, not. .076. +.038 + -.038 = 0, not +.038 + +.038 = .076
.. and the youtube links are broke.
I'll let others comment on the math. Scrub certainly will be worse the further you roll over toward the tip of the rocker. IMO But ears wide open.
Glens
It's still travel and therefore produces additional scrub.
Sorry about the video's. Try these.
Video of roller rocker at 10,000 rpm https://youtu.be/_REQ1PUM0rY (https://youtu.be/_REQ1PUM0rY)
NASCAR engine at 7000 rpm https://youtu.be/i_NpzU4pGjc (https://youtu.be/i_NpzU4pGjc)
BMW Motorcycle at 14,000 rpm https://www.youtube.com/embed/nsa6kq-qqIE (https://www.youtube.com/embed/nsa6kq-qqIE)
Ron
Quote from: EngineNut on May 13, 2015, 07:14:54 PM
Glens
It's still travel and therefore produces additional scrub.
Sorry about the video's. Try these.
Video of roller rocker at 10,000 rpm https://youtu.be/_REQ1PUM0rY (https://youtu.be/_REQ1PUM0rY)
NASCAR engine at 7000 rpm https://youtu.be/i_NpzU4pGjc (https://youtu.be/i_NpzU4pGjc)
BMW Motorcycle at 14,000 rpm https://www.youtube.com/embed/nsa6kq-qqIE (https://www.youtube.com/embed/nsa6kq-qqIE)
Ron
Nice write up EngineNut. Have you considered loss of lift with hydraulics in the mix?
Good write up.
In his case however he gained .040+ lift, advertised (changing from stock ratio), by making the change from a 1.7 rocker with unknown pedigree other than Baisley which was out of wack with the protrusion and mid lift angulation went to a 1.725 camt in this lift range and stock protrusion is also out of wack but not nearly as bad. I don't know seems like a decent stock ratio set of S&S rollers may be best short of tearing it apart and going the full geometry fix route. If using either of Baisleys methods the mix of 1.7 and 1.625 is troublesome. Neither will be perfect.
Maybe if 1.7 is a must an S&S 1.7 on the intake would be the lesser of evils. A custom cam seems more logical.
Don I bought the a SET OF S&S 1.7 for testing and have to say that there was not much gain to speak of. But then again what cam you test is night and day. I ran them on several S&S cams and tman and andrews. That was part of the + 4 sprocket testing as well.
I do again going to a basic rocker would be the best choice .
It's apart Don.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray you're a sick one... :wink:
has anyone seen anything like this before? :scratch:
There are ghost images at the cylinder stud locations on my cylinder bores. You can't feel them...but they are at every cylinder stud location on both cylinders and they run down the length of the cylinder with the piston as far down in the hole as it will go.
rear cylinder
[attach=0]
Ray
Really hard to tell from the picture Ray. Almost looks like there isn't enough material to support the iron liner at the studs bore. Almost like there's a separation there. Front looks ok?
Looks like some slight distortion of the cyl walls from head bolt torque, a couple of .0001, could be measured with good tools. Piston coating deposit possibly.
Yea I haven't come across this before. Like Billy said, a good bore gauge taking measurements with a torque plate and with out.
Ray, did you unzip because of an issue like oil consumption or compression loss?, or are you just trying something new?
Brian...the front cylinder looks exactly the same as the rear. It actually has the same ghost marks at the oil galley running down the cylinder length.. I've never seen this before.
I will pull them off and have them checked out.
There is maybe a 1,000 miles on these cylinders since Bill bore and honed them.
Can you show this picture to Bill and see what he thinks?
Ray
Quote from: Billy on May 15, 2015, 03:31:03 AM
Ray, did you unzip because of an issue like oil consumption or compression loss?, or are you just trying something new?
No Billy...I was going to make a few changes and I found this.
Ray
I guess I have no choice but to pull the cylinders off and I'll take them over to A. Hines Racing and let him look them over.
Ray
I believe it's the from the temp difference between where there is air (isolator) around the stud and where there is metal (conductor). The stud areas have thin, vertical, heat pockets.
I agree with Rigid. Looks like a heat issue. My brother has a set of high dollar bore gauges, he's just outside of Mansfield if you want to take a road trip. I bet there's some minor wattage. Kind of odd to me that your seeing that after only 1k miles when the temperature hasn't been all that hot in Ohio yet. Any idea what kind of engine temps you are seeing?
My 107" looked like that. Was told by FM it was normal but apples n oranges.
Someone showed a picture just like that a long time ago here on HTT. I don't remember the cause or if it affected anything. Sorry.
The cause could be anything related to tune or that would impact tune, from what I've seen. There were a ton of oem cylinders like that a year or so ago. Whatever it is, I'm positive you'll find the cause and address it...like always. 👍🏿
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 15, 2015, 04:34:52 AM
I believe it's the from the temp difference between where there is air (isolator) around the stud and where there is metal (conductor). The stud areas have thin, vertical, heat pockets.
So lack of enough of a heat sink with thin cylinder walls in the mix may be causing an overheating "bluing" at the stud locations?
Essentially, yes. The stock bore for these motors was 3.75, so the original stud locations were designed to provide enough room to hold the cylinders stable while at the same time providing a proper heat sink around the perimeter. The bigger we make the bore, the thinner the heat sink gets next to the studs. If there's no oil issues, i'd run em till the wheels fall off.
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 15, 2015, 05:07:28 AM
Essentially, yes. The stock bore for these motors was 3.75, so the original stud locations were designed to provide enough room to hold the cylinders stable while at the same time providing a proper heat sink around the perimeter. The bigger we make the bore, the thinner the heat sink gets next to the studs. If there's no oil issues, i'd run em till the wheels fall off.
:agree: Seen that on Evo cylinders all the time. They always measured fine. You need to ride that bike more before all the threads wear out of the bolt holes from you taking it apart all the time.
I can't feel anything when I run my finger nail across these ghost images.
The hottest I've seen the oil temperatures has been 214*. Lately is been running right around 195- 200*.
Ray
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 15, 2015, 05:07:28 AM
Essentially, yes. The stock bore for these motors was 3.75, so the original stud locations were designed to provide enough room to hold the cylinders stable while at the same time providing a proper heat sink around the perimeter. The bigger we make the bore, the thinner the heat sink gets next to the studs. If there's no oil issues, i'd run em till the wheels fall off.
This makes sense. It also looks as if secondary heat from ring friction may be just enough to make these marks, as they stop at the top of ring travel. Maybe rings with lower tension would avoid this. I agree with above, no oil or compression issues, run'em.
Quote from: wfolarry on May 15, 2015, 05:31:53 AM
You need to ride that bike more before all the threads wear out of the bolt holes from you taking it apart all the time.
:up:
Damn!
Apart just like that. Despite all we talked about nothing was real earth shattering that needed "fixing". Oh well,
Somewhere along this path were lateral gas ports employed? Just curious not pointing fingers at a technology or supplier.
Those marks are benign if the bores aren't distorted. Looking at the rings and the piston side will tell a bit more.
As long as the bolt pattern is stock and the bore 4.125"+ this is likely to happen, but I am not suggesting buying or changing anything.
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2015, 05:33:10 AM
I can't feel anything when I run my finger nail across these ghost images.
The hottest I've seen the oil temperatures has been 214*. Lately is been running right around 195- 200*.
Ray
You won't feel a thou or two. I'd put it back and ride it like the others suggested. But it'll always be in the back of your mind. Especially this summer when the temps get higher.
Ray, there was another thread a year to 2 years ago about this ghosting. IIRC it may have been started by Strokerjk when he built his 120 up with the new pistons. The general agreement was it is caused by the ability of the cylinders to move heat at equal rates in the areas where the stud holes have removed material to pass the studs through. I think there was other's that found this ghosting and it was considered to be normal. I know you don't want normal :hyst: :hyst: but I would also agree that it is. I remember looking for ghosting in every "run" cylinder bore picture from that day forward that was on this site and the ghosting is there. I would be interested to see if anyone can show a pic of a run cylinder that does not have it. If it measures good (and I know you're going to check - because you can) it is like Don, Larry, and others say ... it's a mute point and normal. JMHO
Have Randy make you a set without through bolts. Problem solved. :potstir:
We see it all the time from stock bikes to built bikes, We got a 111 crate motor down right now only 2500 miles same thing.
I'm with Jamie.. I have seen it on most engines I take apart. Ride it, your wearing the threads out faster than the bore!!!
I think Ray insists on fixing it until it is broken.
"They all do that". My original jugs at 14k look far more pronounced. Kinda freaked me out the first time I saw the marks in evo cylinders.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 15, 2015, 05:50:28 AM
Damn!
Apart just like that. Despite all we talked about nothing was real earth shattering that needed "fixing". Oh well,
Somewhere along this path were lateral gas ports employed? Just curious not pointing fingers at a technology or supplier.
Those marks are benign if the bores aren't distorted. Looking at the rings and the piston side will tell a bit more.
As long as the bolt pattern is stock and the bore 4.125"+ this is likely to happen, but I am not suggesting buying or changing anything.
It wasn't apart for the valve train noise. That was cured with the non rollers.
When I would hammer hard on it I would hear a quick ticking noise. I knew I had to take a peek. Can you see what I was hearing?
I think I found it. :wink:
[attach=0]
and yes men...seeing the cylinders with those ghost marks in them like that scared the hell out of me. I've never seen any of my cylinders do that before. Randy (groundhog143) came over last night and looked at them and he was scratching his head too. We were both baffled. That's why I posted a picture of them for everyone to see.
I guess I'll continue to run them as it seems the majority rule here thinks it's normal.
Ray
You can't see spark knock :potstir:
Chad...you see the shiny brow?
Quote from: harleytuner on May 15, 2015, 09:34:26 AM
You can't see spark knock :potstir:
Sure you can.. But you need some carbon on the piston first..
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Chad...you see the shiny brow?
How does the intake valve look? If I am seeing this correct it looks like a little contact. Also this only happened after you took the baisleys off of the intake and installed the non roller se?
Had those ghost marks in my 103. I posted on here but no real answers or much response.
In therory. You can have more TDC lift with correct 1.7's than you can with incorrect 1.725's. Part of the majic with center lift.
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Chad...you see the shiny brow?
Tape and a dremel time?
Ray, those pistons are looking pretty dark for 1,000 miles. Maaaybe your not running it hard enough. :fish: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on May 15, 2015, 10:25:02 AM
In therory. You can have more TDC lift with correct 1.7's than you can with incorrect 1.725's. Part of the majic with center lift.
:agree: Or less, depending on the TDC lift / rocker arc / lobe timing relationship. Another good find if it is contacting. If you want to confirm it, get your hands on a good jewelers loop (magnifier) and have a close look at the eyebrow and the edge of the valve lip. The witness marks if any should be detectable. On the valve it may not appear all the way around the lip due to the valve rotation imparted from the springs, valve guide fit and possible machining tolerances on the valve head rim but it still may show somewhere around the diameter of the valve edge. Is it on both pistons? Are both cylinders set at the same deck height?
Quote from: Just Nick on May 15, 2015, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Chad...you see the shiny brow?
How does the intake valve look? If I am seeing this correct it looks like a little contact. Also this only happened after you took the baisleys off of the intake and installed the non roller se?
If it's true that the "ticking" only started when you converted back to the non rollers, "and" you find there was a minor contact, I would suggest that is evidence that the roller possibly imparted less valve stem deflection due to reduced side forces from scrubbing of a non roller rocker. That's what they are supposed to do. The higher the lift, the more pronounced side forces will be at each end of the rocker arc.
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Chad...you see the shiny brow?
I see the contact (Ray Charles could see it). I was only dickin' with ya.
Lighten up guys.
Higher rpms?
Hitting is just that the pitch just changes with speed.
Jason is right, die grinder and a little lay back, done. Looks like the pistons have already been clearanced once before. Radius is the issue not depth. The clearance can be bench checked ahead of time if the motor is apart. If the heads are assembled it takes a trock tool to open the valves. No telling if the SE rocker is adding lift at tdc compared to the other. The other was for corrected geometry and the heads are not corrected. It takes both components to get the mid lift fixed. I already explained the ratio split issues too using the Baisley system.
Simple easy way to check it. Pull the valve spring set the head on the cylinder drop the valve until it makes contact on piston. Mark the valve stem pull it up and measure there you go. That gives you a exact spec , then you can add the ratio in or. Set it up with your parts make some soild lifters and run a light spring and roll it with clay with what ever rocker you want to use.
That way you have the clearance number and its for what ever you really have. The math is based on numbers that you think are correct. But I thought you posted pic of claying this set up in the past.
I did clay it with the 662-2 cams.
It apparently was touching with the CR 651,s and these Baisley 1.7 rollers...and the latest SE arms too.
I'll get it handled.
Sorry to stir up so much controversy.
Ray
All good on this end.. Those are the Diamond pistons right?? Seems odd you are hitting so far out of the pocket. though..
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 15, 2015, 12:22:04 PM
Seems odd you are hitting so far out of the pocket. though..
Heads shaved a fair bit ?
I don't see any controversy here either Ray. :hug: This is all good stuff (except for the downtime you are experiencing :banghead:). It shows and reminds us all about the importance of understanding and taking care of these details when building a killer engine like you have (and previously had) and how the slightest change can alter the game. I'm sure you have got it on track and like I said before, "Keep paying attention to those Spidie senses" :wink:. Another good catch on your part. :up:
kd...I'm trying.
I'll get it straightened out.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 15, 2015, 12:22:04 PM
All good on this end.. Those are the Diamond pistons right?? Seems odd you are hitting so far out of the pocket. though..
Steve...yes those are the Diamond pistons. John had these custom pistons made with a 2.18" intake relief...and my 110 heads have a 2.1" intake valve. So when I did the compression bump this past winter and I pulled the flat top pistons (which those are the ones I previously clayed and I had to open up the valve reliefs on for the 2.1" intakes). I figured with the relief being bigger than the valve on the Diamond pistons I wouldn't have an issue. Was I ever wrong. :doh:
My TDC lift clearances were wrote down when I clayed the 662-2's to the flat tops...which the flat tops were .002" down in the hole. According to the math the CR651's shouldn't of had had an issue with the Diamond pistons being at zero deck height...but then again...I didn't clay them so it's my fault and no one is to blame but myself. That's why I kept saying according to my math that the S&S 640's wouldn't work because I didn't show enough piston to valve clearance with them on the intakes.
The thing that threw me on this was the bike didn't make any ticking noise at idle and easy riding. The only time it was heard is when I hammered on it "hard"...and that was only heard for just for a split second and it would go away. :nix:
The piston in the pic with the marks is the rear, right?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on May 15, 2015, 02:19:31 PM
The piston in the pic with the marks is the rear, right?
would have to be, there is no push rod relief on the backside of cyl. :up:
crank run out without the cam plate seems to be acceptable.
https://youtu.be/WdWahZ9A3r8
Ray
Ray, haven't heard back from Bill. But I think these guys are right, lack of aluminum behind the stud holes to act as a heat sink. But I've not seen this myself. Evo or TC.
It scared me when I first seen it Brian. I didn't know what to think so I had Randy come over and look. We were both not sure what we were seeing and why it did it. The cylinders cross hatching looks excellent. It was just those ghost images following the studs and oil galleys.
Now here is the funny part. I cleaned the carbon off the tops of the pistons and now I can't see where they were making contact.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
I wonder if the valve reliefs in the pistons are the size they're supposed to be?
I will have to try to measure them.
Here is a picture of them when they were new to compare with.
[attach=0]
IIRC the piston has an intake relief for a 2.160 in. diameter valve.
The manufacture has no way of knowing what cam timing events the customer will use.
As always it is the responsibility of the end user to check for clearance.
Ray what did you use to clean the piston top with?
Quote from: mike jesse on May 15, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
IIRC the piston has an intake relief for a 2.160 in. diameter valve.
The manufacture has no way of knowing what cam timing events the customer will use.
As always it is the responsibility of the end user to check for clearance.
Ray what did you use to clean the piston top with?
I understand that, but what I asked, are they the radius they should be. Just another thing to look at when things don't fit.
Read sentence 3 again.
I use brake cleaner Mike sprayed on a lint free paper towel and I let it soak in good. Before I start I tape off the rest of the top of the cylinder when I clean them. It's time consuming...because I make sure nothing gets down in the ring land.
In the morning I plan on claying the pistons and seeing what I can find.
Quote from: mike jesse on May 15, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Ray what did you use to clean the piston top with?
Yeah, that. They look so clean I t's hard to believe they've been run. I thought you were showing a pic from initial assembly.
It's always fun to follow along with your excellent adventures. :up: :beer:
If you can't see witness marks on the pistons from the steel valves (or in the carbon of the valve rims) by using heavy magnification like a jewelers loop or printers proofing lens then it couldn't have made contact. That would be a simple fact. If there's a sound related to contact the steel should leave a mark in the aluminum. You won't be happy until you clay it and find out what you actually have there but I think if you can't see it .......it's as I said above. :nix:
f there's a sound related to contact the steel should leave a mark in the aluminum.
True plus the noise would not just be at high rpm
Could it be that the tolerances are so tight, that with the carbon build up it was just clearing the carbon off when it hit? Sounds like that might be what happened.
So after all this we are back to spark knock LMAO. :potstir:
I for one am glad that Ray is so anal about how his bike runs.
Every time he spins the wrenches I usually pick up a bit of information that I can use down the road.
That stud hole ghosting is fairly common. More so on cyls that have seen more heat then usual which amplify the colour (color) variations.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on May 16, 2015, 07:17:06 AM
That stud hole ghosting is fairly common. More so on cyls that have seen more heat then usual which amplify the colour (color) variations.
Ron
:up: Out of 10 sets of take off cylinders I have they all show signs of it, some worse than others. No big deal.
How does the head deck look clean.
Look at the valves. If it was making contact they will have a mark on them too.
I clayed the pistons today. All is good.
It was not touching...close...but not touching.
Ray
Maybe it's the velocity of the intake air coming off the tip of the valve rim. :nix: I expect it's moving pretty good so soot and carbon wouldn't likely build there. (much the same as the squish zone seems to stay relatively clean when it's tight) If the clearance is close the effect may be maximised. The air would pile up at the top of the tulip and be dense as well as fast and cooler. :scratch: Just tryin to figure out the reason for the shiny brow on the intake only.
I can't answer that kd...I don't know the answer.
When I pulled the t/body off the rear intake seal was cracked in half and had been leaking for some time looking at the stains on the outside of the flange. I don't know if this would of made the ticking sound I was hearing or not. It's a good possibility.
Funny thing is the bike didn't seem down on power. You would think with an intake leak like that the bike would run like :turd: ...but it wasn't. :nix:
flange & seals
[attach=0]
valves
[attach=1]
Ray
If the intake was leaking when it was tuned, if that's the case you might not see the symptoms. How big a difference are the VE tables from each other.
Quote from: harleytuner on May 16, 2015, 07:05:21 PM
If the intake was leaking when it was tuned, if that's the case you might not see the symptoms. How big a difference are the VE tables from each other.
Exactily that would show a big differance it would be obvious from the ve's
would that cracked intake seal cause the ticking sound I was hearing when I hammered on it?
Ray
I wouldn't think so Ray. Especially if it was metallic sounding. Like I said, with it gaining under high load are you sure it's not spark knock?
Ray take your Smartphone and the plug for that cylinder and snap a blowup of the insulator side of the plug in the sun light and post it. It may show more intel.
And I would suspect you are going to check everything now that it is apart. Pull the barrels and take some side shots of the ring pack and skirts.
Quote from: gordonr on May 17, 2015, 06:29:28 AM
Ray take your Smartphone and the plug for that cylinder and snap a blowup of the insulator side of the plug in the sun light and post it. It may show more intel.
this is the rear plug that had the cracked intake flange seal.
[attach=0]
Ray
Front too, please- intake leaks affect both cylinders.
front plug
[attach=0]
Ray
Looks slightly leaner than rear, which is what I expect to see with intake leak on the rear flange. Thanks for posting that.
Quote from: No Cents on May 17, 2015, 08:20:47 AM
Quote from: gordonr on May 17, 2015, 06:29:28 AM
Ray take your Smartphone and the plug for that cylinder and snap a blowup of the insulator side of the plug in the sun light and post it. It may show more intel.
this is the rear plug that had the cracked intake flange seal.
[attach=0]
Ray
Its hard to determine. But I was looking to spot some black specs or the appearance of insulator boiling. Its also hard to see if the electrode has an anneal mark 1 to 2mm down. I've used a "macro" app to really get in there and magnify the pic of the plug. Found this was way better than using an otoscope.
I might of found my ticking noise today while I was cleaning parts.
This ticking noise came after I did the compression bump right before winter hit. I went back to using the CR651 cams and I put 1.7 stilts on the intakes only when I did this compression bump with the domed pistons. This noise wasn't there before with 1.625" rocker arms and flat top pistons.
This ticking noise only happened when I hammered hard on it and it only lasted for a couple of seconds.
Today I noticed what looked like a dull discolored spot right above where the intake rocker arms would be on the rocker box lids. Both rocker box lids had the same look in the same place. I clearanced these rocker box lids a few years ago for the roller rockers and I never had a clearance issue with the S&S 1.625 rollers.
I think the 1.7 stilts might of been just barely touching the lids on the quick high rev's. I took some material away from the lids and I will clay the rocker box lids above the intakes when I put it back together to make sure I have enough clearance there.
I've been pulling my hair out trying to eliminate all possibilities as I go.
Today I clayed the pistons again and called Randy to come over and verify my findings. I used locking collars on the valves and set the intakes @ .243" and the exhausts @ .215" (which is a little more than S&S's spec's on the 640's) to see if I had enough clearance to run them.
I clayed the pistons and used "no head gaskets" to see what I would come up with. The piston to valve clearance looked good. Randy confirmed this too.
I'm trying to eliminate things as I go. If all clearances look good...maybe it was spark knock. :nix: It just sounded like a metal to metal tick.
claying pistons
[attach=0]
I removed material where the lid is shiny
[attach=1]
Ray
Ray, I've had rocker contact in the rocker boxes similar to what you describe. The intermittent noise was there but I couldn't find an actual witness mark. The 3rd time off with the covers I noticed a grey / black kind of a smudge and after a couple of us had a real good look a little more material was removed. Warmed it up and the noise wouldn't repeat and still doesn't. I'm guessing that was it because it was the 3rd time off with the covers and that time it worked.
If you want to know or even have a close idea that that's what it was (rocker clearance) you'll have to install the 1.7 Bailey rollers first and check them or you'll never know. I do know that will make you crazy so take the time to check them first. They don't have to touch to make the noise it seems. Mine didn't but when it got hot it would happen and not leave a real mark, just a smudge in the oil film.
Quote from: No Cents on May 17, 2015, 03:46:34 PM
If all clearances look good...maybe it was spark knock. :nix: It just sounded like a metal to metal tick.
Ray
:scratch: if I was asked to describe spark knock I'd probably say it sounded like metal to metal, usually sounds like it's coming from the top of the front cylinder.
kd & Chad...you might both be right. I might of had a couple things going on. It made the same noise with the Baisley 1.7's rollers and with the SE 1.725 non roller arms too.
That's why it's apart. I had to get to the bottom of this and find out why it was doing it. I first thought a valve was hitting a piston from the sound it made...but that's ruled out. I've found a few things along the way...ie: the cracked intake seal, and exactly what you just described in the rocker box covers kd.
I've been measuring and re-measuring everything as I go. I'm going to leave no stone unturned when it goes back together. I checked my notes and the pistons deck height was measured with a borrowed tool and it measured .000" when I first did the compression bump. I made a tool and I'm now showing the pistons are .002" "out" of the hole. I rechecked this multiple times and came up with the same thing. :doh:
Ray, the base gaskets probably compressed 0.002" since new. Unless you had the cylinder synched down when measuring the first time.
they are the .020" metal Cometic base gaskets...I guess it's possible.
It's good that you found potentially negative issues. I'm just glad they are easy fixes and not something catastrophic.
I would describe spark knock as putting a ball bearing in a glass and shaking the chit out of it. It does sound metallic.
You are doing the right thing by measuring everything.
How does the head gasket look on the compression ring?
I find pinging to be very random and if I let cylinder pressure build under load it starts out gently and builds. A regular noise is typically not a pinging issue. imo. Your piston crowns don't look like there's been a bunch of pinging. But then again you aren't claiming this is excessive.
It seems to me putting load on the engine shouldn't cause the valves to behave differently relative to pistons and seats than at lower loads until you get the RPM way up. If they were going to hit the pistons I'd expect to happen when engine is cooler and I can't believe you'd kiss a valve gently enough and not bend it without hearing it. Heck you won't hear it when the valves make solid contact with the piston, the one time it take to bend them.
Too little squish and you won't hear a piston compressing carbon when it's making contact and it won't sound like it's hitting the head, it will make a noise in the bottom end. More of a thud.
Have you pulled the cylinders to look at the skirts?
JW113's bike was making a very regular higher pitch clatter and it turned out to be loose intake seat. But, I found it to not have any dependence on load. But once it warmed up, it was there. However it had been building for at least 6 months. It wasn't doing it much but it seems like it became more consistent over time.
Just random thoughts. FWIW
Ray
its very possible that you could have had some detonation since the seal was leaking .
your plugs don't show signs of detonation.
the front piston could have a little sign of detonation. but it is hard to see from the pic.
if you want to see signs of detonation ,look in the exhaust ports.
this is what your looking for.
i purposely ran this up to detonation. then pulled the head.
your looking for the white/ tan looking specs. as you see in this pic.
as always good work. :up:
contact me if you have any questions. as i don't have time or patience to log in here much.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/B2D522AC-CC48-4A74-A64B-CF3E4FFEB668-22426-0000270935D732E0.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/B2D522AC-CC48-4A74-A64B-CF3E4FFEB668-22426-0000270935D732E0.jpg.html)
thanks Jim :up:
Both exhaust ports were coal black...no tan color at all in them.
Ray
You have carbon yet not any room for that. Valves can hit carbon and cause a mechanical noise so can pistons hit the deck. The rocker hitting the top I can believe but as soon as you went to the non roller that would eliminate the interference. Maybe the exhaust rocker was the offender or?
Pull the barrels. Look for the source of the carbon.
I would think if his nose was mechanical he wouldn't just here it under high demand.
Ray, does it seam to be RPM related? Could you make it happen? To me it sounds like it's only making a noise under certain conditions and not just randomly. If it's Rpm related if it's Michael it should make the noise at that RPM if you stay there steadily. If it's spark knock, like I believe, it will make the noise as you are going through an RPM under a certain load. In other words if it pings at wide open at 3000 RPM and it's mechanical it should be at 3k at lower loads as well.
Any spark activity in the log files? Detonation can leave specks in exhaust port and plugs, but if it isn't that severe or is being pulled out by ECM. You might not see the signs for it.
Pretty sure he's running the original (black box) TTS Jason, so probably not any logs. Doesn't sound like it happened a lot to him, knowing Ray he heard it only a couple times the tore into it. Probably not enough to see visual signs of detonation. I'm not saying it's not something else, just that's what it sounds like to me. And if his bike was tuned in over winter and cooler weather there might not of been any spark events occurring at that time, they might be more prominent with higher ambient temps, or he could of gotten some poor grade fuel as well. (if it's truely S.K.)
Quote from: No Cents on May 18, 2015, 04:59:35 AM
thanks Jim :up:
Both exhaust ports were coal black...no tan color at all in them.
Ray
Plug color don't match port color. Port looks really RICH but plugs don't. :scratch:
Bob
Iirc this bike was run with the camshafts it was tuned for and later on valve gear was changed; could explain the disparity between port and plugs?
It was last tuned with the 1.7 rollers on the intakes.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 18, 2015, 04:59:35 AM
thanks Jim :up:
Both exhaust ports were coal black...no tan color at all in them.
Ray
Good deal. Sounds like you found your problem .
Did you post a pic of your exhaust port that I missed ?
Anyway ...I think you already know how to weed through the garbage , but you don't want your spark plugs to look like your exhaust port.
here you go Don.
[attach=0]
Ray
Jim...no sorry...I didn't take any pictures of the ports of the heads. They didn't look abnormal...so I just took the springs off the heads and cleaned everything real good so I could use the heads with my locking collars on the valves to set TDC lift and clay the pistons.
Ray
Jim says looks like you found the problem? Coal black ports and tan plugs as Bob noted. Did you find the flecks in the port? Tops of your pistons didnt' seem to show evidence of detonation, I don't recall seeing evidence in the comb chambers either.
What's the problem? I don't see it... maybe I need a new prescription.
:idunno: Just trying to understand.
Ray
Front looks good as long as the skirts are not scuffed. Can't see the rear real well due to the light and angle. If the ports were without oil then the source of carbon can only be from fuel. I know you are not a lugger
Maybe all of those winter start-ups in the barn? :soda:
I run either BP 93 octane or Shell 93 octane.
kd...l think you got the answer. I started it too many times this past winter dreaming of spring time. :wink:
Ray
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: Been there and done it.
Winter startups :down:
Quote from: N-gin on May 20, 2015, 04:09:57 AM
Winter startups :down:
We all know it, but it's about one of the worst things to do. And many of us are guilty of doing it. :soda: "You gotta hear this!"
Quote from: Hossamania on May 20, 2015, 05:45:20 AM
Quote from: N-gin on May 20, 2015, 04:09:57 AM
Winter startups :down:
We all know it, but it's about one of the worst things to do. And many of us are guilty of doing it. :soda: "You gotta hear this!"
Aint that the truth. I don't think I will be storing my personal bikes at my shop next winter. Every other person coming in wants to hear it.
I try to start the bike at least once a month in the winter storage months and I'll let it come up to it's full operating oil temperature before I shut it down. I don't cave into the I've gotta hear that thing run stuff unless I plan to let it run long enough to come up to full song to work the moisture out of it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 20, 2015, 08:44:32 AM
I try to start the bike at least once a month in the winter storage months and I'll let it come up to it's full operating oil temperature before I shut it down. I don't cave into the I've gotta hear that thing run stuff unless I plan to let it run long enough to come up to full song to work the moisture out of it.
Ray
Unfortunately Ray, that's what pumps them full of moisture. Not enough hot run time to burn what was created off. Each run like that adds more and more. The other down side is all that time spent running on the warmup table each time adds fuel to the oil, and a nice flat black coating to the pistons. Takes a long trip to burn that out too as well as brown the fuel soot left behind.
Ron
When I first moved from AZ to TX I saw this very thing. Bikes will come in and when I start to tune there is so much moisture in the oil that pure water would drop out of the breathers!!!!! I do not ride my own bike back and forth to work now as I only live 2.3 miles... No way for it to come up to temp and burn that off.
AZ has no humidity to speak of.. TX well I have grown use to paper always feeling like its soggy :hyst:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 09:07:48 AM
I do not ride my own bike back and forth to work now as I only live 2.3 miles... No way for it to come up to temp and burn that off.
Perfect candidate for an electric bike!
Quote from: Hossamania on May 20, 2015, 09:20:08 AM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 09:07:48 AM
I do not ride my own bike back and forth to work now as I only live 2.3 miles... No way for it to come up to temp and burn that off.
Perfect candidate for an electric bike!
2.3 miles? How about a bicycle??
Quote from: Max Headflow on May 20, 2015, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 20, 2015, 09:20:08 AM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 09:07:48 AM
I do not ride my own bike back and forth to work now as I only live 2.3 miles... No way for it to come up to temp and burn that off.
Perfect candidate for an electric bike!
2.3 miles? How about a bicycle??
I've had my eye on one of these for a toy:
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/ebike (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/ebike)
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all.. so I will pass on something that I can not get out of the way quickly if needed.
But for a toy these are very cool ..
https://youtu.be/UX4fCTO44Ic
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all..
Amen to that and they ALL drive in the passing lane ALL the time...
Quote from: dynaman on May 20, 2015, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all..
Amen to that and they ALL drive in the passing lane ALL the time...
Sounds like CA, drive up to them on the fast lane and they might get in the slow lane, but as soon as you pass them they go right back to the fast lane.
Quote from: dynaman on May 20, 2015, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all..
Amen to that and they ALL drive in the passing lane ALL the time...
I stay in the passing lane but I am also normally going at least 15 over the posted limit
Quote from: JohnCA58 on May 20, 2015, 03:23:23 PM
Quote from: dynaman on May 20, 2015, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all..
Amen to that and they ALL drive in the passing lane ALL the time...
Sounds like CA, drive up to them on the fast lane and they might get in the slow lane, but as soon as you pass them they go right back to the fast lane.
Heck, I would be delighted with that. These morons stick in the passing lane like glue no matter what and many are traveling under the speed limit. One can guess the sex of those drivers with a very high degree of precision. They have a cell phone surgically attached to their ear.
Quote from: dynaman on May 21, 2015, 05:45:35 AM
Quote from: JohnCA58 on May 20, 2015, 03:23:23 PM
Quote from: dynaman on May 20, 2015, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on May 20, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
WELL The texas drivers for the most part have their head shoved way up there ARSE have no clue as to what a turn signal is at all..
Amen to that and they ALL drive in the passing lane ALL the time...
Sounds like CA, drive up to them on the fast lane and they might get in the slow lane, but as soon as you pass them they go right back to the fast lane.
Heck, I would be delighted with that. These morons stick in the passing lane like glue no matter what and many are traveling under the speed limit. One can guess the sex of those drivers with a very high degree of precision. They have a cell phone surgically attached to their ear.
One of my pet peeves are the drivers who think that because they are going a couple of miles over the speed limit they are allowed to stay in the left lane. Then when you come up behind them they don't yield the lane to let you go buy. I was taught that the left lane is for passing.
"fast lane?" "passing lane?" whats the speed limit in the fast lane??
no where in regs books I have seen this.
its just another lane.
I ride in it all the time cause the trucks have tore up other lanes.
so yeah I doing 10 over (usual)
some one comes up on me at 25 over he can go around to the tore up pavement if he wants to speed in the get a ticket area.
me pulling over into a line of trucks aint gonna happen so some one more important than me can get some where faster.
Quote from: garyajaz on May 21, 2015, 09:55:58 AM
"fast lane?" "passing lane?" whats the speed limit in the fast lane??
no where in regs books I have seen this.
its just another lane.
I ride in it all the time cause the trucks have tore up other lanes.
so yeah I doing 10 over (usual)
some one comes up on me at 25 over he can go around to the tore up pavement if he wants to speed in the get a ticket area.
me pulling over into a line of trucks aint gonna happen so some one more important than me can get some where faster.
In Minnesota, that is a ticketable offense, impeding the flow of traffic. By law, slower traffic is to move to the right, regardless of the limit.
So yes, it is in the reg books.
In California if your going the speed limit you don't have to get out of the left lane.........
WHAT A STUPID LAW :angry: And yes,the right lane is tore up from truck traffic
Coff 06
From the Ohio BMV of motor vehicle driving laws. The left lane is to be used for passing, and making turns to the left.
That being said, out our I-275 loop around the Tri-State is generally crowded, and you need all three lanes to maintain traffic flow. If the traffic is low, I drive the center lane. If traffic is heavy, I take the left lane.
Quote from: Coff 06 on May 21, 2015, 10:12:29 AM
In California if your going the speed limit you don't have to get out of the left lane.........
WHAT A STUPID LAW :angry: And yes,the right lane is tore up from truck traffic
Coff 06
:agree: :agree: But out of respect, I will get out of the way of anyone that wants to go faster than I do, and expect the same from others.
Quote from: JohnCA58 on May 21, 2015, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: Coff 06 on May 21, 2015, 10:12:29 AM
In California if your going the speed limit you don't have to get out of the left lane.........
WHAT A STUPID LAW :angry: And yes,the right lane is tore up from truck traffic
Coff 06
:agree: :agree: But out of respect, I will get out of the way of anyone that wants to go faster than I do, and expect the same from others.
Bingo.
Quote from: Hossamania on May 21, 2015, 10:06:21 AM
Quote from: garyajaz on May 21, 2015, 09:55:58 AM
"fast lane?" "passing lane?" whats the speed limit in the fast lane??
no where in regs books I have seen this.
its just another lane.
I ride in it all the time cause the trucks have tore up other lanes.
so yeah I doing 10 over (usual)
some one comes up on me at 25 over he can go around to the tore up pavement if he wants to speed in the get a ticket area.
me pulling over into a line of trucks aint gonna happen so some one more important than me can get some where faster.
In Minnesota, that is a ticketable offense, impeding the flow of traffic. By law, slower traffic is to move to the right, regardless of the limit.
So yes, it is in the reg books.
Also pretty sure that somewhere it'll say "No passing to the right"
I think everyone would be amazed by how much better traffic would flow if they adhered to only passing to the left, leave left lane open for passing and give the proper distance between vehicles. That and wish people would learn how to merge onto freeway. :banghead:
I agree John,if someone wants to pass me,then I'll jump in behind them and let them get the ticket as I usually go 10 over the posted always. Coff 06
NoCents,you gotta get back to the motor work,look at us bitching about traffic,
WE'RE BOARD. :hyst: Coff 06
Bored and cold!!
Quote from: JohnCA58 on May 21, 2015, 10:20:21 AM
Quote from: Coff 06 on May 21, 2015, 10:12:29 AM
In California if your going the speed limit you don't have to get out of the left lane.........
WHAT A STUPID LAW :angry: And yes,the right lane is tore up from truck traffic
Coff 06
:agree: :agree: But out of respect, I will get out of the way of anyone that wants to go faster than I do, and expect the same from others.
Yep, taught my son years ago if you're in the left lane going 10 over and someone comes up behind you get over and let them pass. They may want to do 15+ over. Let them be the cop bait. :teeth:
Rick
My take is that I am Always passing people if I'm in the left lane, Plus I am safer in the fast lane than in the right lane. If I see someone coming up faster than I, I will move over. If I move over and the A hole doesn't pass because they're just ignorant chronic tailgater or think I shoudl be their rabbit.. well. let's just say I'm not very polite from that point forward.
Driving in the fast lane at the speed limit IS illegal if you are being passed by normal flow of traffic.
California vehicle code, Keep right unless passing:
21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.
(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section.
(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state
highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their
jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs
directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane
except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a
left turn.
lol so in some of your states I could get a ticket for going to slow while traveling 10 over the limit???
that would be fun in court.
why not instead ticket the real speeders going 20+ over that really need to pass me going 10 over.
and yes, we have passing only lanes. up in mountains where trucks go 18 miles an hour trying to pass a truck going 16. then tying up road next 10 miles.
not talking bout posted lanes. am talking freeway.
Gary, you're just going to have to accept the fact that you are holding up traffic if it is stacking up behind you in the left lane, even if you are going 10 over. If you want to control the speed of other drivers, you are going to have to get a badge.
Sorry man, it's just the way things go, sometimes.
some selective quotes going on.
ah, so, hoss. if say 100 sport bikers doing 100+ mph wheelies on free way run and I doing 85 I could get the ticket cause I slower than them?? yeah right.
rage glide your law says unless passing or turning left??
how many left hand lane turn offs you see on freeways?
also my ol chp redi ref book addresses SLOW traffic in left lane. not less speeding... speeding is speeding
ohio how many left turns you make off freeway lately?
yep, I knew I was gonna catch crap. but oh well.
coff, that's the one law in calif I like. well that and the trucks must stay in right lane.
here in az they like to get in left lane and tear that one up also.
Ah hell Gary, I just like to take the other side and argue, even if my point gets shot down.
You should see how I deal with religion topics! I got questions!
And anyway, isn't this thread supposed to be about Ray beating the hell out of his motorcycle? That man cannot stop taking it apart and putting it back together.
Quote from: garyajaz on May 21, 2015, 03:34:07 PM
some selective quotes going on.
ah, so, hoss. if say 100 sport bikers doing 100+ mph wheelies on free way run and I doing 85 I could get the ticket cause I slower than them?? yeah right.
rage glide your law says unless passing or turning left??
how many left hand lane turn offs you see on freeways?
also my ol chp redi ref book addresses SLOW traffic in left lane. not less speeding... speeding is speeding
ohio how many left turns you make off freeway lately?
yep, I knew I was gonna catch crap. but oh well.
coff, that's the one law in calif I like. well that and the trucks must stay in right lane.
here in az they like to get in left lane and tear that one up also.
Hey Gary, in Ohio, not many, In the Tulsa Oklahoma area, maybe every forth exit from the freeway is on the left in the downtown area.
had one. its how I looked up redi ref.
its not about me controlling their speed. I don't care if they run off road.
they not stacking up behind me...lol..
its the Mercedes guy that can go 95 cause he knows the judge
that is so important he must get by me at all cost. hanging off my plate.
and I do pull over. just some times not fast enough for the "important" people who must be at some meeting.
and I wont dodge out of their way to jump in between a group of trucks
making it unsafe for me.
please give me a going too slow ticket while speeding.
next day book me on all the talk shows.
My riding depends on what's up around me.. Most of the time I'll favor the passing lane because it gives me a buffer on the ones entering from the side roads.. I don't impede the flow of traffic :)
Anyone that refuses to move over from the passing lane when a vehicle approached from behind as quickly as it is safe to do so is an assjole, period.
yep. and when the road signs say its a passing zone or go fast lane...agree 100% (never seen a sign saying FAST lane)
but if as stated, its just another lane....eh, no big hurry on my part . I am already speeding..
and if I have to choose a nice smooth lane or some chopped up crap we in Arizona call freeway...well, go around if you must run 95 .
of course if the over taking driver is unsafe. all bets off.
by all means get off the road into the gutter to avoid him/her
So Ray, with the cam change are you addressing valve spring install heights?
I think "slower traffic keep right" is the norm across the land and I agree that anybody who parks in the left lane and stacks people up behind them is an asshole. I don't care what the right lane is like. If they need to get into the rough for a minute to be courteous, then so be it. Either that or pick up the pace.
In Indiana if you get (I think the number is) 11 vehicles stacked up behind you you're supposed to pull over and let them pass. For sure that's on two-lane roads. I don't know how it gets enforced on the freeway when even the dawdler is going 10 over...
the new Cometic base gaskets came in the mail yesterday. I got the cylinders back on last night.
When I checked the deck height the pistons were .001" in the hole.
Ray
In Ohio cincy area I can think off the top of my head at least 6 left lane exit ramps. Just in the Cincinnati area. So yes. Left lane exits are common here.
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 03:50:44 AM
the new Cometic base gaskets came in the mail yesterday. I got the cylinders back on last night.
When I checked the deck height the pistons were .001" in the hole.
Ray
Looking forward to how the 640's come out for you Ray. My CCP came in a bit high on mine, higher than my target and the 640's should knock it down nicely if I decided to do them, but honestly, it'll stay the way it is until next winter then I may lower the comp and try the 635HO if they ever release them for the early twin cams. S&S told me they'll be out in about 3-4 months. [emoji108]
Scott...if I recall your running the 662-2's. The 635HO cams have an intake closing of 43.5.
You'll have an even earlier intake closing with them with an even higher ccp.
It will take some changes to run the 635's to get the ccp's lower than you have now...if you want to run them.
Ray
what your guys thoughts on this cam lobe?
click on the picture twice to enlarge it.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 03:35:26 PM
what your guys thoughts on this cam lobe?
click on the picture twice to enlarge it.
[attach=0]
Ray
It's fine. Not a particularly smooth grind but should not cause issues.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on May 22, 2015, 04:01:30 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 03:35:26 PM
what your guys thoughts on this cam lobe?
click on the picture twice to enlarge it.
[attach=0]
Ray
It's fine. Not a particularly smooth grind but should not cause issues.
I agree
Ron
I spent an hour using 2,000 grit sand paper in my wife's kitchen sink with hot Dawn dish soap.
Here is how this one turned out. These are the CR651 cams by the way.
[attach=0]
ray
In my house that definitly would be crossing line Ray!
Quote from: gordonr on May 22, 2015, 05:28:30 PM
In my house that definitly would be crossing line Ray!
So what would'a shovel 4 speed transmission case in the dishwasher be? :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 05:20:25 PM
I spent an hour using 2,000 grit sand paper in my wife's kitchen sink with hot Dawn dish soap.
Here is how this one turned out. These are the CR651 cams by the way.
[attach=0]
ray
Be very carefull doing that. Looking good means taking metal off to some extent. Surface might not be as square now as it was with the ugly grind. I've been bit by that a couple times myself with other things.
Ron
she was gone picking up the grand kids...or I wouldn't of been allowed to do what I just did in her kitchen sink. :hyst:
I removed any and all evidence. It's like it didn't even happen. :teeth:
Ray
I'd of not touched it.
(http://i.imgur.com/M9vgy7X.png)
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 05:36:13 PM
she was gone picking up the grand kids...or I wouldn't of been allowed to do what I just did in her kitchen sink. :hyst:
I removed any and all evidence. It's like it didn't even happen. :teeth:
Ray
So you put the dirty dishes back in the sink. :up: Good thinking. :teeth:
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 05:36:13 PM
she was gone picking up the grand kids...or I wouldn't of been allowed to do what I just did in her kitchen sink. :hyst:
I removed any and all evidence. It's like it didn't even happen. :teeth:
Ray
The evidence it on the Internet
Nick...she doesn't believe in HTT.
She says I should get a hobby :scratch:
She will never understand I guess.
I thought I had one.
added later:
that 2,000 grit paper is not a sanding paper...it's basically a polishing paper.
Quote from: FSG on May 22, 2015, 05:36:54 PM
I'd of not touched it.
(http://i.imgur.com/M9vgy7X.png)
So what you're sayin is that's not your fingerprint on that lobe? :fish: :hyst:
no it's not.
Ray
Did you sand your lifter roller also?
Quote from: No Cents on May 22, 2015, 05:44:14 PM
Nick...she doesn't believe in HTT.
She says I should get a hobby :scratch:
She will never understand I guess.
I thought I had one.
added later:
that 2,000 grit paper is not a sanding paper...it's basically a polishing paper.
Depends on how one looks at it. 40 grit on a rough casting could be considered polishing. Metal needs to be removed or there is no change in appearance was my point. :wink:
Ron
It happens..
Sometimes speed and feeds or stone dressing are not just right. But they are steel cores and induction hardened, I believe. Only a small amount of surface hardness.
I would not have messed with them but that said probably not enough removed to cause an issue.
the CR651's are out...and the S&S 640's are in.
Awesome ! Did you get any seat time with them yet Ray ?
Too bad you didn't wait on the new lifters and cam at same time. Could of let them break in into each other.
no Josh...it's still apart. I hope to have it up and running next week sometime.
Jason...the new lifters were only in there maybe 100 miles before I pulled it apart. They don't have a mark on them and still look brand new.
Ray. Are you bringing your bike to Xenia if it's together? Maybe Jim can take it home with him and tune it.
I haven't talked to Jim about it...but that isn't a bad idea. The thought has crossed my mind. The plan as it stands is Randy and I plan on going. It's kind of became a tradition for us. We even talked about riding our bikes there. Of course that all depends on if I get mine back together by then.
I don't know if Jim would have the room in his trailer or not to haul mine back with him. I know he will more than likely have both his bikes at Xenia.
Ray
Me and another guy gonna ride over to watch. Maybe go back and chat with Jim some too
If you haven't been to Kil-Kare before...the pits are open to the spectators. You can come and go as you please back and forth from your seats to the pits and watch what's going on in the pit area too.
Ray
Quote from: FSG on May 22, 2015, 05:36:54 PM
I'd of not touched it.
Probably a quick lap with steel wool if anything for me on that one.
Quote from: 06roadglide on May 21, 2015, 10:41:51 AM
Bored and cold!!
What is wrong with 54F? Perfect riding weather! You can wear some gear and not get overheated. The first ride I took this year it was 2F.
Geez, I don't read this thread for a week and I am 6 pages behind! Ray, both of us need to get some snaps and sippers on our engines, my 107" is apart again, third time in 18 months!
My old Pinto 2 liter had 4 bell housing bolts and a hole with a cover to pull the cam through the firewall and dash :teeth:
Quote from: No Cents on May 23, 2015, 04:47:14 PM
no Josh...it's still apart. I hope to have it up and running next week sometime.
Jason...the new lifters were only in there maybe 100 miles before I pulled it apart. They don't have a mark on them and still look brand new.
Ray did you get the heads and throttle body flow worked out yet?
Eric...no not yet.
My S&S 66mm T/Hog hit a wall @ 364 cfm's. It was choking the heads when flowed together. So it was taken to a Nascar shop yesterday to be flowed on their wet flow bench to see what is needed to be done to it so it will be able to flow the same as the heads do.
added later:
I hope to hear something today.
You mean you can't just test lone throttle bodies back to back on a flow bench. :wink:
I'm sure you can Eric.
My 66mm t/body is not flowing what the heads are...that's the problem. It was flowed by itself and with the heads.
The goal with it is to get it to flow what the heads are flowing so it will not be choking the heads off any.
Ray
That damn cats out again ... . :chop:
Quote from: No Cents on May 28, 2015, 03:39:48 AM
I'm sure you can Eric.
My 66mm t/body is not flowing what the heads are...that's the problem. It was flowed by itself and with the heads.
The goal with it is to get it to flow what the heads are flowing so it will not be choking the heads off any.
Ray
We did a full resistance flow with my B2 heads: from heads, to heads and TB, to heads and TB and AC. Just to see the drop, the 70mm held up nicely with some light massaging. The biggest drop in cfm was adding the AC. I think all in all the heads were 330 and everything was 319cfm. I know thats apples to oranges, but an idea of how do get a more acurate pictre of where you are losing flow.
I think the goal is 380 cfm's thru the t/body and heads at the same time.
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on May 28, 2015, 03:59:28 AM
That damn cats out again ... . :chop:
Jim you know Ray he just gives us a little bit at a time :pop:
How did you come up with 380 cfm?
What do your heads flow at max lift?
How do you measure it? Through both intake ports at same time I assume?
Are you doing the testing with AC on as well?
Sorry for all the questions. Lol
that's what the intakes of the heads are flowing on the bench by their self.
The t/body only flowed 364 cfm's yesterday before going to the wet flow bench to see what it will take to bring it up to match the head flow #'s.
I'm sure it's all being flowed every which way it can be.
The goal is for it all to flow the same as the heads do by their self.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 28, 2015, 08:31:51 AM
that's what the intakes of the heads are flowing on the bench by their self.
The t/body only flowed 364 cfm's yesterday before going to the wet flow bench to see what it will take to bring it up to match the head flow #'s.
I'm sure it's all being flowed every which way it can be.
The goal is for it all to flow the same as the heads do by their self.
Ray
with valves? what lift?
The heads will flow as advertised. Mine were proven on more than 2 benches.
Let's not get this thread to "full retard", no one else has documented their build to this degree in years.
8UP again at play I see!!! I'm waiting patiently for the results of the 640's with 11.??/1 compression.
Very curious to see where they go from 10.8 stock like mine.
Would you mind retelling us the valve sizes once more? I know they are NOT stock. Buffalo
intake valves are 2.175" which are flowing 380 cfm's at 28" @ .650" lift.
exhaust valves are 1.600" which are flowing 267 cfm's at 28" @ .650" lift.
I do know the exhaust ports were totally welded up and re-shaped....and I do know a bunch of work went into the exhaust ports to get them to flow the way they are.
Oh by the way...these were stock factory CVO 110 head castings to start with.
I was told in the beginning that the plan was to raise the intake ports a then re-shape the port to keep the port speed up. I haven't asked if they have actually been raised or not...so I honestly don't know.
Ray
Who did the heads?
Ray you spilled the beans I thought you were going to hold out until its was dyno'ed .
Nick...I'll keep the who and where a secret until I get the dyno sheet posted after Jim tunes it.
I just talked to him and he said he found out what that fat bellied T/Hog finally needed to pick the flow #'s up on it to match the heads with that Nascar wet flow bench he went and used. He said he will massage on it some more tomorrow now that he knows what it needs and he can finish it up with his air flow bench. He said this was the 1st time he ever messed with a S&S T/Hog...and it took some figuring out...but he's got it now after seeing what the air did and how it acted on the wet flow bench.
Ray
Cool I call firsts one the old heads :teeth:
I missed it, when did you change heads?
Two pages ago
Quote from: Just Nick on May 28, 2015, 08:25:10 PM
Two pages ago
I'm having a hell of a time trying to keep up.
Quote from: HighLiner on May 28, 2015, 08:24:04 PM
I missed it, when did you change heads?
the heads have been in the hands of this porter for a few months now. He didn't want my t/body sent to him until he had the heads exactly where he wanted them. This would cut down on my over all down time.
He told me yesterday that when he has the t/body flowing as much as the heads do...it will sound like a jet engine when it's bolted all together and flowed on his flow bench.
Ray
Do you have the old heads and Cycle Rama cams sold yet that would help fund the Baker comp and new rear tire you're going to be needing :pop:
Nope...I haven't tried to sell anything.
Ray
Might want to keep old heads for your future square touring build. [emoji6]
I'll take a guess at 175..
that might be a good guess. :wink:
only time will tell.
It's been ran thru the Accelerator Pro software and I was shocked at what it predicted.
rigidthumper ran it thru his Dynomations software last night and came up with your guess.
I think it's going to be interesting...to say the least.
Ray
http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcafhp.php (http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcafhp.php)
I just went here and came up with 180.. I dropped 5 because you were about 5 off from where it showed you should have been.. It's just a close guess either way.. It Will be badass..
Ray,
Have you considered talking to Burns with your new engine details and seeing how the pipe specs are now with all of the changes since it was built? It may or may not be a change in (more) exhaust flow with an approximate (estimated) 35 HP from the original build spec. Ya gotta be moving more air to get that increase.
I agree. Pipe is gonna play a big role in this.
Gonna need 2-2 drag pipes that taper to 2.25 right at the port opening.
I call first on the old burns. :baby: :chop:
Just kidding Ray
:potstir: Ravens on a gut pile eh Ray! :wink:
The Burn's recipe (as you discovered when researching yours) covers a bit of a range in engine specs. This new change (that you have been forced to let out of the bag) is significant in new found power if the calculators are close. I think it has been shown that the calculators are fairly intuitive (good word eh?). If the Burns recipe changes too, that may be a reasonable indicator that the pipe will be a significant influence on getting the numbers that the calculators have predicted.
kd...I've been kicking the idea around for a stepped 2-2 pipe for a few months now. I've been rolling it around in my head trying to think of a good way to mount the front pipe on this rubber mounted bagger frame. I've got a couple of ideas...I just haven't moved forward with it. The rear pipe should be no problem to get it mounted solidly.
For now...it will go back to Jim's and l will have him roll on the drum with my current Burns pipe and I'll see how it does.
I have no doubt the pipe will support more than I've thrown at it so far. This might just be the test for it.
Ray
May be able to make use of a dyna support for mounting a 2-2
One of my ideas is to make a bracket to come off the bottom two bolt holes of my cam cover. Weld a tab on the front pipe and have a bolt drop thru the tab and thru the bracket mounted to the bottom of the cam cover.
I just don't know if I like the thought of the heat transfer from the pipe to the cam cover. :nix:
thanks for the dyna bracket suggestion :up:
I'll eventually figure out something. I know it would be a nice winter project for me if nothing else.
I like the looks of these...with out that tape on them.
I might make something close to this.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray I still have the mega zilla pipe for the early style chassis collecting dust it has the R&R billet / B2 style 2 inch ex port. It has no heat shields and has been silver ceramic coated. This pipe on the old 131 went 160 hp with the 640 cam .. comp was only 10.8 . It not doing me any good might be a great starting point for you.. Just a thought .. IT is a slip fit head pipe with tabs to hold the head pipe to the main collector. WOuld be easy to make some changes to it if needed.
Steve...what is a Mega Zilla pipe?
I've never heard of one before.
Ray
I don't know the specs on it but last I heard it was built for all these BIG motors coming out where the normal Zilla couldn't go.
I also heard one was being made for the S&S 143
Don't think either have came to market yet tho
Quote from: No Cents on May 29, 2015, 02:01:27 PM
One of my ideas is to make a bracket to come off the bottom two bolt holes of my cam cover. Weld a tab on the front pipe and have a bolt drop thru the tab and thru the bracket mounted to the bottom of the cam cover.
I just don't know if I like the thought of the heat transfer from the pipe to the cam cover. :nix:
thanks for the dyna bracket suggestion :up:
I'll eventually figure out something. I know it would be a nice winter project for me if nothing else.
I like the looks of these...with out that tape on them.
I might make something close to this.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray, what if you put a tab on each pipe on the back of them where they almost meet. Then once mounted, bolt them together. Since you have a mounting place for the rear pipe, that should make them easy to install and a solid mount. Should look pretty clean.
Mega head pipe it has the std style can on it with a short 3 inch perf baffle, The trans mount will slid to most mounting locations. 18 mm bungs , and dyno proven with lower compression and that same cam.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Engine%20parts/20150529_172509_zpse2yq7c4w.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Engine%20parts/20150529_172509_zpse2yq7c4w.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Engine%20parts/20150529_172452_zpsgw6un4h3.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Engine%20parts/20150529_172452_zpsgw6un4h3.jpg.html)
Steve you got spiders in the front head pipe
That's a good looking pipe Steve do they make it for the 09up bikes?
:agree:
that's a good looking head pipe there Steve.
What size is that tubing?
It looks to be not stepped.
Thanks for posting the pictures of it. :up:
Ray
Ray, I sent you some reading on that pipe.
thanks Smarty :up:
that's kind of in line with my other idea. I was thinking I'd do the rear pipe first and once I had the rear pipe mounted to the tranny mount I could possibly piggy back somehow off that bracket to the front pipe to make it good and solid too. Possibly welding a tab onto the front pipe on the backside of it and weld another tab on the backside of the rear and just take some flat stock and make a nice bracket to join them together that way. I just don't like the idea of placing a bracket on the bottom bolts of the cam cover. The heat transfer scares me.
Once I get the time this winter I'll mock something up that will be solid and easy to take apart when I want to remove the pipes when the need arises.
I will do the first mock up version out of some mild steel tubing so I can make changes when it's needed until I get to the final set up I'm happy with. Once I'm happy with what I've got...I'll probably make the final version out of stainless.
Ray
Randy (groundhog143) and I went to the AMRA Harley drags today again this year at Kil-Kare Dragway up in Xenia, Ohio.
We seen Jim (strokerjlk) make so good passes on his newly Pro Charged Betty Blu bike. :up:
We ran into Scott (Scooter_trash_1) over at Jim and Darryl's pit area and shot the crap with him and his pal. It sounds like Scott has a very nice 124 he just built. Nice running into you again this year Scott.
I enjoyed walking around the pits and I seen a few things that I need to do to my bike still. I definitely need one of those Pingel electric shifters and I seen that most of the guys making some serious power had made some sort of heim joint that they ran from the frame to the swing arm on the left side of the bike to take away the side loading flex. I'll be all over that modification. :wink:
Now I have two more things on my to do list. :doh:
It rained at around 4:00...so Randy and I called it a day at the track.
Good luck to you tomorrow Jim!
Ray
Ray. I wanted to get over there as well but got tied up replacing a set of heads on a in laws truck.
Hoping to get out there tomorrow maybe if time allows.
Thanks Ray.
It was good seeing you ,Randy ,scott ,and friends.
We got some more racing in after you left . I ended up qualifying #2 in Dresser and # 3 in SE .
Looking forward to getting in elimainations tommorow without any rain. :idunno:
Kenny . AKA wild wide Glide on HTT qualified # 1 in his class with a 9.80.
He went 3 -9.50's with a light tune and launch . They will eventually be running 8.90 class with it. Nice job Kenny . Your enthusiasm is contagious . :up:
It's race day...and it's raining at the house right now Jim. :doh:
I hope it clears up. Temp's are cooler today and the times should be faster!
Go get 'em! :up:
Ray
Hey guys.. We did pretty good on the way home, got soaked the last 15 miles.. not bad considering it was a 2 hour ride.. I got to tell you, wet roads and this much torque is a touch and go kind of thing.. wheeew.. Glad I got to see everybody.. Go get em Stroker !! Ketch up with you in two weeks for the tune.. Scooter
Quote from: No Cents on May 30, 2015, 06:10:03 PM
I definitely need one of those Pingel electric shifters
That is one of the best mods I've made to my 124" RK.
~John
Quote from: Scooter_trash_1 on May 31, 2015, 10:09:16 AM
Hey guys.. We did pretty good on the way home, got soaked the last 15 miles.. not bad considering it was a 2 hour ride.. I got to tell you, wet roads and this much torque is a touch and go kind of thing.. wheeew.. Glad I got to see everybody.. Go get em Stroker !! Ketch up with you in two weeks for the tune.. Scooter
Wet rides make memories :teeth:
Ended up going runner up in both classes dresser and street eliminator
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/race%20videos/6C65A21E-56F5-48D3-AE9F-2A0CD5C28D4C.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/race%20videos/6C65A21E-56F5-48D3-AE9F-2A0CD5C28D4C.jpg.html)
way to go Jim! :up: :baby:
Nicely done :up:
Way to go Jim!! That makes it worth it right there!!
:up: Nice Jim
Great work Stroker :up:
very nice
~John
Right on Stroker
Great job Jim. It sure makes all of the time, money and effort well worth it.
thanks guys.
now how bout that
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8%20up.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8%20up.jpg.html)
Ray,quit holding out update please :pop:
no new news.
The two day turn around on the t/body massaging....has turned into two weeks as of yesterday. I hope to hear something soon.
I'm at the point where I'm thinking about just getting another t/body to strap on so I can ride and just do the changes later on.
I can't stand being down this long. It would even be worse if the weather was nicer around here...but there hasn't been a lot of good riding days I've missed since it's been down.
Ray
I have a 66 that you can borrow.
Ray come on over to the house and hop on canned heat that will take your mind off of copper head :potstir:
OH OH .... :potstir: :fish: :bike: Trouble will be brewing. :missed: ..... And I just noticed this is page 131 of this thread. :potstir:
Yes Ray, 131!
Quote from: kd on June 04, 2015, 06:02:09 AM
OH OH .... :potstir: :fish: :bike: Trouble will be brewing. :missed: ..... And I just noticed this is page 131 of this thread. :potstir:
I had a change of heart on the 640 cams today after much deliberating and I decided to put the CR651's back in the bike tonight.
The bmep on the 640's is 179...and the CR651's bmep is 183. Above 7250 rpm's it shows the 640's slightly edging out by 1- 2 hp.
I plan on keeping my rev limiter set at 6400 rpm's and it shows the CR651's winning all the way across the board by 3- 4 hp until they reach 7250 rpm's.
I won't be spinning this engine that high...so this is why the change of heart.
Ray
:missed:
I think I hear an ECHO from your motor : Yep....It is saying THAN YOU ,,,, Thank You Ray... :up: 6400 or I'll BUST... :SM:
signed....BUBBIE
:hyst:
Care to show the math on computing the two different cams bmep?
What you really need to do is follow stroker's lead & get another bike that you can actually ride because this one is more like a science project then you can make all the changes you want.
Quote from: wfolarry on June 05, 2015, 06:26:09 AM
What you really need to do is follow stroker's lead & get another bike that you can actually ride because this one is more like a science project then you can make all the changes you want.
That's true.. I'm blessed with a Brother with 2 bikes at my house.. He's always gone and I take care of them :) My crank gets here tomorrow and camplate, oilpump and heads Monday.. S&S all the way..
Like Dan/TXchop.
He went max effort on his only bike then tore it down, sold everything and bought a crate motor so he could ride it again.
:up:
:agree: :agree: Very happy with second bike :koolaid:
I feel already as if my bike is to much and that feeling started a long time when it was a 117. Granted it runs really cool, way cooler now at 124 than the 117 did. This is the end for me on pushing the envelope, nothing wrong with big, just keep the compression down and use a mild cam, like S&S does.
I'll add another bike to my garage one day then my RG will return to a bar hopper.
My next one will be a full dressed touring bike like what mine is now, hell, I'd already have one if I could find what it is I want. Harley hasn't made it yet, they need to make drastic changes for me to buy another bike from them. The BMW K1600 is high on my list.
It's just a head swap . No added compression . :scratch:
Keeping the cycle Rama is a good idea . The results will be just from a head swap and not a head and cam swap . Good stuff !
Keep up the good work Ray . And for crying in a bucket .. Stay out of TX . Or the sky will fall :hyst:
I agree Ray build , put 20,000 miles on and and have a ball.. :up: :up:
Ray get the heads and throttlebody back slap them on be happy with the newfound power and lock the toolbox and if you want to turn some wrenches come over to the garage I got plenty of work :koolaid:
Quote from: groundhog143 on June 05, 2015, 08:00:06 AM
Ray get the heads and throttlebody back slap them on be happy with the newfound power and lock the toolbox and if you want to turn some wrenches come over to the garage I got plenty of work :koolaid:
:up: :up:
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 05, 2015, 07:57:35 AM
Stroker
I make a statement about high heat pump gas and big compression and your get up tight :wtf:
Facts are facts nothing more.. Its not JUST this build , its pump gas that is the equalizer..
Ray has a killer build making big power. Nothing more,.. how you can take it and make your silly comments is beyond me..
I agree Ray build , put 20,000 miles on and and have a ball.. :up: :up:
I am sure Ray will sleep better now that you have given your approval . :sick:
Would love to see you hit 170 HP that would be very impressive .
I suggest buying the Jesel drive train. Rev to 8000 and install it in a pro mod frame. If it's your wallet. I got suggestions all day. :wink: I got a right side Jim's Fat5 back cut by Andy. All ready for the strip.
QuoteGood luck Ray I am sure the new head swap will yield even more power than you already have Would love to see you hit 170 HP that would be very impressive .
Now that wasn't too hard was it .
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 05, 2015, 06:13:57 AM
Care to show the math on computing the two different cams bmep?
Jason...these numbers came from gordonr's calculations. I'm assuming they are from Accelerator Pro software.
He sent me some of the stuff from his software that he ran for me to look at. I will look and see if it is in the stuff he sent me.
Gordon told me the CR651's showed a 3- 4 hp/tq higher number across the board until 7K over the 640's.
ok Randy...I'll be over. You can put me to work. :SM:
Larry...yes I need another bike...so I can keep on riding.
Ray
Why jack up this thread?
Stokers talent is self evident, but so are the guys he butts heads with ove technical stuff.
a lot of swinging balls here, no need for it. At The end of the day, we all seem to love motorcycles more than is natural, that should be enough of a binding force.
Steve,
On a running topic of two years and 132 pages. On a open forum. Don't you understand you have to be very careful of what you post. Some of these guys are real sensitive. Kid gloves only. Don't put in your knowledge off your experience if it goes against one guy and his. Drink the koolaid and don't get out of the box. No ruffling of any feathers. Just agree and tell them what a great job they are doing. No room for anything else.
Good Job in Ohio last week, Jim. Thank god for that lucky break in the first round. Looking forward to watch your accomplishments in Bowling Green.
Ray,
I follow along. Your building a bad azz engine and I am legitimately into bad azz engines. I don't care who owns it or who does what with it. Keep it up.
Quote from: No Cents on June 05, 2015, 09:21:23 AM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 05, 2015, 06:13:57 AM
Care to show the math on computing the two different cams bmep?
Jason...these numbers came from gordonr's calculations. I'm assuming they are from Accelerator Pro software.
He sent me some of the stuff from his software that he ran for me to look at. I will look and see if it is in the stuff he sent me.
Gordon told me the CR651's showed a 3- 4 hp/tq higher number across the board until 7K over the 640's.
ok Randy...I'll be over. You can put me to work. :SM:
Larry...yes I need another bike...so I can keep on riding.
Ray
Thanks Ray. I got a PM on it. Seems with the little info you sent me. You have enough to make those programs as accurate as possible.
Quote from: build it on June 05, 2015, 09:28:06 AM
Why jack up this thread?
Stokers talent is self evident, but so are the guys he butts heads with ove technical stuff.
a lot of swinging balls here, no need for it. At The end of the day, we all seem to love motorcycles more than is natural, that should be enough of a binding force.
132 pages and you can repeatedly see the same guys come in as naysayers , during each and every change .
The compression was not changed . So why the BS about TX heat . And all the negativity towards the test the owner and the bike .
Think about it a while you're sharp enough to get the "why" part
.. :up:
Motorcycles are cool...and chit
OK...I'm officially confused. :scratch:
what is going on with all the back and forth bickering?
We are grown men here and I was sharing what I was doing. My mistake again. I should have known better.
I see no further reason to share what I'm working on the forum here after reading the last page of this thread.
I will post a dyno sheet in the dyno section after having it re-tuned. Beyond that....you'll have to fill in the blanks for yourself.
Ray
Nothing I posted was meant derogatory in any way.
Good luck and hope you break the 170 mark
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 05, 2015, 12:53:39 PM
Nothing I posted was meant derogatory in any way.
Good luck and hope you break the 170 mark
Steve,
I don't see anything bad about what you were posting either.
Pointing out big inch, big compression motors in 100 degree plus Texas heat and city traffic don't mix is simply a true statement.
Ray,
I hear you. when I was posting my 126" re-build here everything was going smooth until stuff was posted that got personal with stupid "Potty mouth" and opinions that had nothing to do with, and took the focus away from, what was going on with the build itself.
A lot of guys asked me why I don't post here anymore.
I said to myself, screw it, as I thought this was a Tech Site and comments should be based on parts combos, suggestions to make a better motor based on what goals a guy has with his build, and Q&A as to why certain things were done the way they were done. Period.
Also, too many guys who have never done specific things being discussed with motor builds, or any other topic being discussed, seem to know what they are talking about like an expert even though they never actually built or did what was being discussed.
Example-
I can't tune a FI motor worth a "Potty mouth", but I certainly ain't stupid or ignorant enough to talk about FI like an expert or give suggestions on something I know nothing about.
Anyway,
Best of luck with this latest phase of your 124".
IMO, if you want to pull it apart one day and put it back together, trying all kinds of combos in the process- go for it. Years ago, I kind of did the same thing while I pushed my builds to the limit until I found the edge I was willing to go to for a fun, reliable, fast street bike. You will eventually find the point where it is set up exactly the was you want it, and I bet then you will slow down on combo testing-only you know when that time is.
When I finished my rebuild last year, I set goals for what I was trying to achieve-it has huge HP, it's easy to start, and has been reliable to this point, while on pump gas when ridden of the street (U4.4 when I take it to have fun at T&T track days)
So for me, it has met and exceeded my goals so I don't plan to touch it till it blows up or wears out again.
Quote from: pwmorris on June 05, 2015, 02:34:00 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 05, 2015, 12:53:39 PM
Nothing I posted was meant derogatory in any way.
Good luck and hope you break the 170 mark
Steve,
I don't see anything bad about what you were posting either.
Pointing out big inch, big compression motors in 100 degree plus Texas heat and city traffic don't mix is simply a true statement.
Ray,
I hear you. when I was posting my 126" re-build here everything was going smooth until stuff was posted that got personal with stupid "Potty mouth" and opinions that had nothing to do with, and took the focus away from, what was going on with the build itself.
A lot of guys asked me why I don't post here anymore.
I said to myself, screw it, as I thought this was a Tech Site and comments should be based on parts combos, suggestions to make a better motor based on what goals a guy has with his build, and Q&A as to why certain things were done the way they were done. Period.
Also, too many guys who have never done specific things being discussed with motor builds, or any other topic being discussed, seem to know what they are talking about like an expert even though they never actually built or did what was being discussed.
Example-
I can't tune a FI motor worth a "Potty mouth", but I certainly ain't stupid or ignorant enough to talk about FI like an expert or give suggestions on something I know nothing about.
Anyway,
Best of luck with this latest phase of your 124".
IMO, if you want to pull it apart one day and put it back together, trying all kinds of combos in the process- go for it. Years ago, I kind of did the same thing while I pushed my builds to the limit until I found the edge I was willing to go to for a fun, reliable, fast street bike. You will eventually find the point where it is set up exactly the was you want it, and I bet then you will slow down on combo testing-only you know when that time is.
When I finished my rebuild last year, I set goals for what I was trying to achieve-it has huge HP, it's easy to start, and has been reliable to this point, while on pump gas when ridden of the street (U4.4 when I take it to have fun at T&T track days)
So for me, it has met and exceeded my goals so I don't plan to touch it till it blows up or wears out again.
Well said Paul.
And you know the drill, screw everyone that wants to rain on your parade. It's your parade, you paid for it, enjoy it! :up:
Added: Ray the above was meant for you, don't worry what others will say. Remember, someone once was sure the world was flat too!
thanks for the vote of confidence Paul! :up:
I have always respected your views and opinions on things.
You have been there and done it before. People should take heed when you say something...because it is coming from a voice of experience.
I'll see where this combo lands when I get it back together. I hope it will still be streetable...if not it will be officially retired to the drag strip.
Ray
And to think, this all started with a little spark knock!! LMFAO.
Good luck with it Ray, I know your giving the thought process the best effort and for that I'm sure you'll achieve your goals.
nope Chad...this started "way before" the spark knock. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on June 05, 2015, 12:27:23 PM
OK...I'm officially confused. :scratch:
what is going on with all the back and forth bickering?
We are grown men here and I was sharing what I was doing. My mistake again. I should have known better.
I see no further reason to share what I'm working on the forum here after reading the last page of this thread.
I will post a dyno sheet in the dyno section after having it re-tuned. Beyond that....you'll have to fill in the blanks for yourself.
Ray
It's not you Ray . It's like I said before way back in this thread I need to stay off your thread .( it just so damn hard) I can't take all the ignorance , jealousy , back biting ,chest pumping , lying,underhanded tactics that goes on here .
After seeing this sheet and a few other sheets , I am confident that you're gonna see increase .
I hope it goes another 12-15 hp for sure . Busting 170 would be icing on the cake .
This is a 124 with stock 2003 style heads ,CV 51 carb ,all massaged and flowing 320 at 650 lift .
S&S 625 cams and a patriot defender 2-1 pipe .
Incredible numbers for what it is .
Can't wait for the next phase of you're ole Duracell .
You know how to reach me . :beer:
Edit : just got off the phone with him -changed the post to 2003 style heads.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/EC70B4EF-1C4A-468B-9A2E-F9401116F39D.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/EC70B4EF-1C4A-468B-9A2E-F9401116F39D.jpg.html)
Ray, Goodluck with this build upgrade. Post a sheet, but post a video also...I wanna hear ya fire that bad bitch up !
Quote from: No Cents on June 05, 2015, 03:30:34 PM
nope Chad...this started "way before" the spark knock. :wink:
I know, just funnin' ya.
Jim...I'm not dumb or stupid enough to predict any #'s...but I will say the heads are suppose to be flowing 380 cfm's now thru the t/body. :wink:
The old 66mm T/Hog was only flowing 310 cfm's when it was originally flowed before it's massaging started. It was actually choking off the set of wfolarry massaged 110 heads at their 332 cfm's.
The #'s the software programs have spit out are amazing to me. If I can get even close to what's predicted...I'm going to be very happy.
But I guess Jim...you'll be the first to know how well it actually does. :teeth:
Chad...I know your only messin' with me. :up: I rather enjoy it.
Thanks bulldog68...I'll post...or Jim can post the dyno sheet when he gets done re-tuning it.
Ray
Did you get the TB yet?
no...nor the heads yet.
The two day turn around on the t/body took a lot longer than thought. It is in week three now.
There was a lot of work that went into it to get it to flow properly from what I've been told. I was told the air didn't want to flow thru the T/Hog like it was advertised. I do know material was added...then removed to re-shape the inlets to keep the air speed up.
Ray
Ray. Would you be willing to post pictures of your heads and TB when you get it back?
I'd love to see the work that goes into this stuff to get flow #'s so high up.
I'd also understand if not. Some people don't like their work being posted.
Quote from: No Cents on June 05, 2015, 05:05:11 PM
no...nor the heads yet.
The two day turn around on the t/body took a lot longer than thought. It is in week three now.
There was a lot of work that went into it to get it to flow properly from what I've been told. I was told the air didn't want to flow thru the T/Hog like it was advertised. I do know material was added...then removed to re-shape the inlets to keep the air speed up.
Ray
S&S advises against porting them because you kill the air flow when you try. Getting 380 out of that TB is going to take some serious work.
He called me today and said he got it there Larry. The heads with the t/body attached are flowing 380 cfm's together.
It took a lot of work he said...and it took the aide of a wet flow bench at a Nascar shop to actually see what the t/body was doing and what was needed for it to keep the air speed up and the port velocity where it should be.
He said the air speed was terrible in the 66mm T/Hog's stock configuration and the air got lazy in it trying to make the hard turn into the port. :nix:
Ray
Love this thread and can't wait to see the results of your latest round of mods!
Hey Ray,that's great news on the added flow#.
John
I'd certainly ignore the "peanut gallery" here (us) for the most part. I really enjoy watching you take your 124 to the next level.
I read your blog here at least twice a day to see the next 8UP steps, can't wait to see the results from the matched TB/porting. It should be pounding out the numbers for sure.
Just continue to do what you do, the really interested onlookers will be perpetually grateful for the experience and dedication to the cause. Buffalo
200843 Views Nuff Said..
Quote from: Barrett on June 06, 2015, 10:28:39 AM
200843 Views Nuff Said..
Just to be clear.. I'm here to learn and I learned a lot on this thread.. Thanks Ray..
Keep it going Ray. I don't know "Potty mouth" in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoy the hell out of reading your updates.
Zach
Ray if you keep going like this the damn dyno is not going to able to read the power you bike puts out. Then dyno jet will be working on upgrading the 250i to read up to 1500 hp
To be honest...my bike ran fairly well sitting at 151/151 sae...and I was happy with it.
I was approached with the offer to do these latest changes to my bike and I gave it some serious thought before going ahead and moving forward with it.
I was shown my current engine and pipe spec's that was ran thru the Accelerator Pro software and I was astonished with what it showed. After seeing those predictions...I decided to move forward with this. I thought to myself that if it hits the numbers or even comes in close to what is predicted I would be ecstatic.
My only concern is to see how well it acts on the street after it's all back together.
Paul (pwmorris) has pm'd me a few times and he said he had basically done the same thing to his bike that I'm doing to my bike right now. He said I will know the first time I ride it if it's right on the edge for still being a street bike...or it's very possible I've crossed over the edge and I've made it a strip only bike. Only time will tell this outcome.
The porter that is doing this work for me called me this morning and said "it's done" :teeth: ...but he wants to take it back to the Nascar shop on Monday to flow everything together on their wet flow bench to see how it does on that flow bench.
Maybe I'll get this thing bolted all back together by next weekend.
I've got some work to do on my end when I get the stuff back ie: claying the pistons to check valve pocket clearance for the larger 2.175" intake valve, getting the geometry set to the best I can get it with the non roller rocker arms, checking rocker arm gaps to the supports...and making a few more checks along the way.
The plan is to take my time and check and double check everything as it goes back together...leaving no stone unturned.
Thank for the support men...I truly appreciate it. :up:
Ray
I hope it turns out as predicted as well and keeps street manners. I'd hate for you to do all this and not get to enjoy it daily and stomp every passer by. [emoji106]
Ray,
IIRC Paul is running a carb engine. If that is so, and you have the FI plus access to a premium tuner that REALLY knows his stuff, you should be able to keep the "street" in it (and know if doing that has left anything on the table). You'll be riding again. :up: Many of us have gone (almost) to far for the street and learned how to manage it as a daily driver. Your new mods shouldn't shave anything off the longevity of the last version, in fact it may make it better. That is as long as you don't let that neighbor of yours egg you on too much. :hyst: :hyst: I think you've already taken care of the breaky stuff in the drive train so here's hoping the pipe still performs and the rest of the season is pure enjoyment. :wink:
kd & "06"...yes Paul's bikes are carb'd. I'm hoping the FI has some better manners and keeps it streetable...but that is to be seen.
This will be a good test for my pipe also. I think it might do well...but then again...that remains to be seen also.
I think a lot of questions I have will be answered for me very soon.
I've been working on some swing arm braces to take away the possibility of any side loading flexing. I got the heim joints in the mail today...so I'm going to try to do a little mocking up on it. I'm using 7075 aluminum round bar for the struts that I will cut to length and drill and tap the ends for the heims. This 7075 round bar aluminum is suppose to be a lot stronger than steel...and of course way lighter. I'm making a dual purpose bracket that will support one end of a heim joint and also serve the purpose of mounting a lower foot peg to the bracket for racing. This bracket will go over the swing arm bushing bracket and will be directly bolted to the frame.
Don't laugh at the rough drawing on the flat stock aluminum. It's just giving me a general idea holding it up in place of how I kind of want the final product to be.
[attach=0]
Ray
one side of the first strut drilled and tapped hanging from a rear bracket.
[attach=0]
Ray
There's no reason a FI bike In damn near and configuration can't be stretchable. It just takes a little more to dial in the lower ranges. This bike will be fine with a good tune.
Are those heim joints left and right hand threads to make for easy adjustment?
yes they are Gary. :wink:
I'm thinking of possibly milling in two flat sides in the middle of the round bar for adjustment ease.
Ray
I'd hex the ends of the bar, but that's just me. Is the bar dia the same as the peak to peak of the hex nut?
(http://i.imgur.com/GTbhWg3.png)
yes...the round bar measured .6245" in diameter...and the jamb nut from peak to peak measures .625".
close enough for hand grenades and horse shoes.
Or mill 4 flats 90 degrees apart
thanks for the idea Gary :idea:
nothing a little tape, a vice, a file, and a little elbow grease can't cure.
[attach=0]
Ray
Definitely better ! Wasn't sure what you had to work with .......
sweet :up:
Ray why not mount the heim joint centers so that the suspension will still work?
Then you could run them on the street.
Hey Ray,this is what I did I put a 8" solid piece of rectangular aluminum in my swingarm.I drill and tap the outside my swingarm and aluminum but not out the inside of the swingarm.I also put a solid bushing in the pivot block,was thinking the strut wouldn't bind if it followed the same path that the swingarm does.We also mounted the swingarm with solid bushings.
John
Eric & John/1...I'm welding these heim braces on the center of the swing arm when they come in. They have not arrived in the mail yet. The braces are specifically for the size heims I'm using.
The strut will be on center plain of swing arm bushing thru bolt and centered on the swing arm. I plan to mount it...and run it all the time. It will be on the same plain as the swing arm is.
[attach=0]
Ray
OK
The pic of your aluminium bracket showed the front heim mounting behind the swing arm axle
Hey Ray,I like that you don't sit idle while waiting for parts thanks for sharing.
John
I've got to keep the old brain working John...if I don't I'm afraid I'll go senile. :hyst:
The flat stock aluminum bracket I'll be making will go over the factory swing arm bushing bracket using the same bolt holes as the factory bracket does. It will have a mounting hole rearwards of the thru bolt of the swing arm...and it will be on the same plain as it is on.
This is being done to have the room for putting the bolt thru the forward heim joint.
If I'm thinking correctly on this...the heim'd struts on each side of the swing arm should move exactly in the same swing of motion as swing arm does. I'll just be adding any needed extra support to stop any side load flexing of the swing arm by helping to support it and hold it straighter inline. :nix:
Am I thinking wrong on this?
If I am...I'm going to have to go back and re-think how I can make a mounting point on the front heim to the bracket.
Ray
Yes I went back and looked at your pick sound and looks good to me Ray.You could use hex stock for foot pegs,turn down one end then knurled,hollow and cut to length.
John
John...I've got some 7/8" OD 7075 aluminum round bar for the foot pegs. I was going to have my buddy knurl them for me.
Ray
Sound like you got it covered Ray don't forget to show us when your done. :up: :up:
John
well now I'm second guessing my bracket mounting point being rearward of the thru axle of the swing arm. I can't get it straight in my brain now.
Plan "B"...I could cut to width this 3/4" flat stock and have it welded onto the bracket right above where the axle would be. I'd have to counter sink drill the back side of it so the head of the mounting bolt wouldn't be hitting the swing arms thru axle. I'd probably have to counter sink the outside also so I could run the heim's mounting bolt thru the bracket and have a nut recessed enough so I can tighten it thru the bracket and have a solid mounting point for the heim joint. That way the heim will slip over the extending bolt and I can use a nylon locking nut on the outside of the heim. This way the strut would have the same mounting location as the swing arm does to the frame.
[attach=0]
Ray
Be sure to hollow out them pegs, man, they'll slow you down!! LOL :hyst: Buffalo
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Ray,
I have noticed on dirt bikes and just checked on a 06 road glide and the chain/belt tension changes when you jack the bike up vs lowering it down and putting the weight of the bike down. The swing arm swings in a small arch and changes the distance from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle, tightening the belt.
Have you checked your chain tension throughout the range your swing arm will travel? Just wondering if you will be binding similar to what KD was talking about.
Quote from: johncr on June 07, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
Ray,
I have noticed on dirt bikes and just checked on a 06 road glide and the chain/belt tension changes when you jack the bike up vs lowering it down and putting the weight of the bike down. The swing arm swings in a small arch and changes the distance from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle, tightening the belt.
Have you checked your chain tension throughout the range your swing arm will travel? Just wondering if you will be binding similar to what KD was talking about.
Johncr,
What you have noticed is as a result of 2 different arcs working at the same time. The suspension arc is from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle and the drive chain / belt arc is from the transmission main output shaft to the rear axle (which is on a different plane from the first / suspension arc that starts at the Swing arm pivot). The common denominator is the rear axle center which is not the pivot point so you end up with different arcs and travel. The drive arc is longer and the suspension arc is shorter. The consequence is the tension change in the chain / belt that you describe.
plan "B" bracket...with the heim mounting location being at the same location as the swing arm axle.
I'll have the thicker flat stock welded all the way around it to the bracket flat stock.
This one will be the right side bracket if your sitting on the bike.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray make sure you mount the heim center in line with the actual swingarm axle center and not with the center of the hole in the mount bracket.
The rubber mounts actually offset the swing arm axle in relation to the bracket hole.
pop the cap off and you will see what I mean.
Good luck welding 7075.
Ron
Ron...the guy I use to do my aluminum welding says he welds 7075 almost everyday. He welded and added a piece of 7075 to my Grey Area bagger brace five years ago and it's still there and perfect. :nix: but jfyi...the bracket and the added thicker flat stock that will get welded to the bracket is 6061.
Eric...that's the plan. It will be centered on the swing arm axle...not the hole.
Here is a very rough sketch of what I'm doing...to give those that don't understand my terrible explanations. This might give a clearer picture of what I'm doing.
[attach=0]
Ray
:up: :up:
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 07:33:08 AM
Quote from: johncr on June 07, 2015, 06:59:24 AM
Ray,
I have noticed on dirt bikes and just checked on a 06 road glide and the chain/belt tension changes when you jack the bike up vs lowering it down and putting the weight of the bike down. The swing arm swings in a small arch and changes the distance from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle, tightening the belt.
Have you checked your chain tension throughout the range your swing arm will travel? Just wondering if you will be binding similar to what KD was talking about.
Johncr,
What you have noticed is as a result of 2 different arcs working at the same time. The suspension arc is from the swing arm pivot to the rear axle and the drive chain / belt arc is from the transmission main output shaft to the rear axle (which is on a different plane from the first / suspension arc that starts at the Swing arm pivot). The common denominator is the rear axle center which is not the pivot point so you end up with different arcs and travel. The drive arc is longer and the suspension arc is shorter. The consequence is the tension change in the chain / belt that you describe.
Gotcha, understood.
Ray throttlebody and heads coming your way :pop:
Supposed to be shipped out today.
He wanted to check them one more time on that NASCAR shop's wet flow bench before sending them back. He said this was a learning process for him and he wants to make sure he has all his notes right so he can duplicate his work again if need be.
If he does get them out today...I might see them by this weekend. :teeth:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 07, 2015, 09:09:17 AM
Ron...the guy I use to do my aluminum welding says he welds 7075 almost everyday. He welded and added a piece of 7075 to my Grey Area bagger brace five years ago and it's still there and perfect. :nix: but jfyi...the bracket and the added thicker flat stock that will get welded to the bracket is 6061.
Eric...that's the plan. It will be centered on the swing arm axle...not the hole.
Here is a very rough sketch of what I'm doing...to give those that don't understand my terrible explanations. This might give a clearer picture of what I'm doing.
[attach=0]
Ray
I didn't say it couldn't be welded as I've done it myself back in the day for non critical apps. That and that's what I had laying around at the time. Point being by the time you are done you might as well have used 6061 and be done with it. Welding 7075 for structural purposes isn't recommended. Same goes for 2000 series alloys.
Ron
Welding 7075 is for filling. The weld will not have the strength.
I concur with Ron.
Not saying it hasn't been done, just not recommended.
Quote from: rbabos on June 09, 2015, 05:40:53 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 07, 2015, 09:09:17 AM
Ron...the guy I use to do my aluminum welding says he welds 7075 almost everyday. He welded and added a piece of 7075 to my Grey Area bagger brace five years ago and it's still there and perfect. :nix: but jfyi...the bracket and the added thicker flat stock that will get welded to the bracket is 6061.
Eric...that's the plan. It will be centered on the swing arm axle...not the hole.
Here is a very rough sketch of what I'm doing...to give those that don't understand my terrible explanations. This might give a clearer picture of what I'm doing.
[attach=0]
Ray
I didn't say it couldn't be welded as I've done it myself back in the day for non critical apps. That and that's what I had laying around at the time. Point being by the time you are done you might as well have used 6061 and be done with it. Welding 7075 for structural purposes isn't recommended. Same goes for 2000 series alloys.
Ron
Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 09, 2015, 09:51:34 AM
Welding 7075 is for filling. The weld will not have the strength.
I concur with Ron.
Not saying it hasn't been done, just not recommended.
If that's the case, it's best to change up the material now. You don't want one side tearing loose when the front wheel is flying on heavy acceleration. That is if you think that you may ever find yourself doing that. :dgust: :smiled:
I'd bolt the block on. The strength would be higher then a single shear bolt of the heim anyway. Diaganol 2 or 4 corners works.
Ron
men...this is 6061 I'm talking about having welded...not 7075.
7075 is the actual strut (rod) itself...which is drilled and tapped on both ends for the heims.
The mounting bracket to go over the factory swing arm bracket to hold one end of the heim is the 6061 aluminum. The other end is a steel bracket that will be welded to the swing arm.
The bolts that I will be using to go thru the heim joints will be grade 8 bolts with grade 8 nylon locking nuts.
swing arm bracket
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Yes, this is very critical or it will snap a bolt off. Snapping a front, not good.
Ron
Easy enough fitment test. Just jack the rear, take off the shocks, put slack into the belt and manually lift the swing arm up and down to pre-check for binds with the struts attached one at a time.
Everyone is always drooling over my avatar but gordonr that is one sexy ass avatar
Quote from: Just Nick on June 09, 2015, 05:22:59 PM
Everyone is always drooling over my avatar but gordonr that is one sexy ass avatar
No kidding! I just asked my wife If she would go for a racy avatar like you have. She just rolled her eyes. So I'm left with cold metal. Lol
Quote from: gordonr on June 09, 2015, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on June 09, 2015, 05:22:59 PM
Everyone is always drooling over my avatar but gordonr that is one sexy ass avatar
No kidding! I just asked my wife If she would go for a racy avatar like you have. She just rolled her eyes. So I'm left with cold metal. Lol
I have to change my password every now and than or else I log into a new picture she takes and puts up. I keep telling her the guys like the red boob picture leave it alone
Sorry Ray I stop taking about my wife's boobs in your thread. It's got plenty of views already
no problem Nick.
I FULLY understand. :wink:
Ray,
What Ron says is true. For that reason it may make more sense to do a bolt-on for that front heim mount(instead of welded) because you could slot the mounting holes slightly (or oversize) and center it when you install it. If you use 4 studs each side for example, you could lightly snug a couple while you work the swing arm and they will settle in to the sweet spot. Once there and they no longer move when you work the suspension tighten em up. If you use good flange nuts they'll probably bite real good and be solid. The aggregate of the 4 studs will me stronger than the heim mounting bolt so you should be good to go. They would also be easy to dismount and mount. Just a thought to help you keep it simple and help get back on track from the "Nick's avatar" (lucky bastard) talk. :hyst: :hyst: .
Just Nick anyway thanks for compliment. As I accomplish more on this build my avatar reflects the progress. Here's the newer one and an older mock up pic. Thanks Ray
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b583/gordonr2/Mobile%20Uploads/C4A6DDF9-C317-4381-BA05-5319BEA1EE24_zpscekowovt.jpg) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/gordonr2/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C4A6DDF9-C317-4381-BA05-5319BEA1EE24_zpscekowovt.jpg.html)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b583/gordonr2/Mobile%20Uploads/77A731EF-5A2F-4145-9DC8-66C41635BA88_zpsw58oz2gy.jpg) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/gordonr2/media/Mobile%20Uploads/77A731EF-5A2F-4145-9DC8-66C41635BA88_zpsw58oz2gy.jpg.html)
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
Well I guess a little distraction once in a while is a good thing eh Ray. Not that you need a higher page count on this thread. :wink: That's very nice Gordon. :up:
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:21:13 PM
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
All it takes is a bunch of cash.
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin (http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin)
Quote from: Eglider05 on June 09, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:21:13 PM
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
All it takes is a bunch of cash.
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin (http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin)
And a custom or heavily modified frame.
Quote from: Eglider05 on June 09, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:21:13 PM
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
All it takes is a bunch of cash.
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin (http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin)
But they don't list prices that I could see. Not that I needed to, I can see they are a bit out of my range. But I still want one.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:43:48 PM
Quote from: Eglider05 on June 09, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:21:13 PM
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
All it takes is a bunch of cash.
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin (http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin)
But they don't list prices that I could see. Not that I needed to, I can see they are a bit out of my range. But I still want one.
How does that saying go? If you need to ask........... :wink:
Quote from: Eglider05 on June 09, 2015, 07:05:43 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:43:48 PM
Quote from: Eglider05 on June 09, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2015, 06:21:13 PM
Are you kidding me? What the hell is that? And how do I get one?
All it takes is a bunch of cash.
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin (http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/v-twin)
But they don't list prices that I could see. Not that I needed to, I can see they are a bit out of my range. But I still want one.
How does that saying go? If you need to ask........... :wink:
Exactly what I was thinking.
Quote from: rbabos on June 09, 2015, 04:49:55 PM
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Yes, this is very critical or it will snap a bolt off. Snapping a front, not good.
Ron
This is BS.. Won't snap the bolt off from being out of align. Might tear up the motor mounts tho..
The location of the front mount (Centered on the pivot point) is critical, not so much for the rear mount. Have any of you guys that are spewing advice actually done any of this before?
Max, the problem is not about alignment. :scratch: Maybe you're not following the conversation. :nix: I'm thinkin that if the arcs aren't perfectly matched between the brace and the swing arm you're going to work that mounting bolt back and forth enough that it's going to break. Simple and basic enough to see. I believe a couple of others see it too.
You're right about the resulting workout the motor mounts are going to get too. If they get pounded out bad enough the bolt may then hold. There won't be any stop resistance at the end of the travel of the vibration because they're wallered out ? as you say. Either way, the swing of both components will have to be in exact harmony or it won't last on the street. We're not talking just 1/4 mile spurts here. Ray wants to ride this thing too.
I think the point here is trying give positive thought to the problem at hand. These braces are usually used on the track and Ray wants to try it on the street. I know that my knowledge of suspension is peanuts to yours. How do you see this working? I would like to learn something here too.
Turboprop,
I couldn't agree more about the pivot point and no I haven't done this before. I have however fabricated similar types of machinery and understand the concept. I also realise (as I am sure you do) that the pivot point of the swing arm is a bit of a moving target when running down the road and that becomes problematic when you mount the brace pivot to the frame and not the swing arm spindle.
As for spewing advice, I see this as a conversation over a perceived problem. How do you see this working? You certainly can't be critical unless you have some reasonable input. It's an interesting challenge Ray has taken on. (Or maybe I'm over thinking it) :nix:
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2015, 07:55:16 PM
Turboprop,
I couldn't agree more about the pivot point and no I haven't done this before. I have however fabricated similar types of machinery and understand the concept. I also realise (as I am sure you do) that the pivot point of the swing arm is a bit of a moving target when running down the road and that becomes problematic when you mount the brace pivot to the frame and not the swing arm spindle. How do you see this working? It's an interesting challenge Ray has taken on. (Or maybe I'm over thinking it) :nix:
This is typically done to bikes that only run on a race track, i.e: the Street Pro bikes. Those bikes will usually have solid motor mounting systems, not OEM type rubber isolators. Hence my question about having done this before.
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2015, 07:55:16 PM
Max, the problem is not about alignment. :scratch: Maybe you're not following the conversation. :nix: I'm thinkin that if the arcs aren't perfectly matched between the brace and the swing arm you're going to work that mounting bolt back and forth enough that it's going to break. Simple and basic enough to see. I believe a couple of others see it too.
You're right about the resulting workout the motor mounts are going to get too. If they get pounded out bad enough the bolt may then hold. There won't be any stop resistance at the end of the travel of the vibration because they're wallered out ? as you say. Either way, the swing of both components will have to be in exact harmony or it won't last on the street. We're not talking just 1/4 mile spurts here. Ray wants to ride this thing too.
I think the point here is trying give positive thought to the problem at hand. These braces are usually used on the track and Ray wants to try it on the street. I know that my knowledge of suspension is peanuts to yours. How do you see this working? I would like to learn something here too.
Turboprop,
I couldn't agree more about the pivot point and no I haven't done this before. I have however fabricated similar types of machinery and understand the concept. I also realise (as I am sure you do) that the pivot point of the swing arm is a bit of a moving target when running down the road and that becomes problematic when you mount the brace pivot to the frame and not the swing arm spindle. How do you see this working? It's an interesting challenge Ray has taken on. (Or maybe I'm over thinking it) :nix:
Oh I am,, You just don't understand the issues and geometry involved..
Quote from: turboprop on June 09, 2015, 07:59:05 PM
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2015, 07:55:16 PM
Turboprop,
I couldn't agree more about the pivot point and no I haven't done this before. I have however fabricated similar types of machinery and understand the concept. I also realise (as I am sure you do) that the pivot point of the swing arm is a bit of a moving target when running down the road and that becomes problematic when you mount the brace pivot to the frame and not the swing arm spindle. How do you see this working? It's an interesting challenge Ray has taken on. (Or maybe I'm over thinking it) :nix:
This is typically done to bikes that only run on a race track, i.e: the Street Pro bikes. Those bikes will usually have solid motor mounting systems, not OEM type rubber isolators. Hence my question about having done this before.
Heck,, Use struts for shocks, solid bushings and you don't need ball joints on the bars..
Add and it don't make much difference where you mount the front facing struts..
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 09, 2015, 08:03:17 PM
Quote from: turboprop on June 09, 2015, 07:59:05 PM
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2015, 07:55:16 PM
Turboprop,
I couldn't agree more about the pivot point and no I haven't done this before. I have however fabricated similar types of machinery and understand the concept. I also realise (as I am sure you do) that the pivot point of the swing arm is a bit of a moving target when running down the road and that becomes problematic when you mount the brace pivot to the frame and not the swing arm spindle. How do you see this working? It's an interesting challenge Ray has taken on. (Or maybe I'm over thinking it) :nix:
This is typically done to bikes that only run on a race track, i.e: the Street Pro bikes. Those bikes will usually have solid motor mounting systems, not OEM type rubber isolators. Hence my question about having done this before.
Heck,, Use struts for shocks, solid bushings and you don't need ball joints on the bars..
Add and it don't make much difference where you mount the front facing struts..
Wow, I can't type fast enough to stay in this game. Max, you're probably right about my level of understanding of the issues and geometry involved. I did however see this was heading for a possible failure the way it started out so I stuck my neck out and got involved instead of watching it go the course. Now that both of you folks have chimed in with your "real" experience it is plain that the KISS principle is the solution here.
Quick question Max. Why does it not matter where the front studs are mounted (if you were using this system)? How do you reconcile the change in the speed of the arcs with a solid brace rod that won't collapse or expand with the suspension movement in the swing arm (added later) - if they don't have the same pivot point?
Just a thought to throw out there. To simplify the skills needed to do this, why not just get a longer swingers thru bolt and a longer axle bolt and make your stabilizer go from each of these bolts. Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing and the geometry would be perfect? Tear me up, just my simple mind thinking here.
Ya, that's more in line with keeping to the KISS principal. I suppose the few of us that got involved were focussing more on what Ray wanted to do with the materials he has. Ol Ray's probably :scratch: his head over where this has gone right now.
If this is generally only used on a street pro bike, is there benefit for a street bike that is designed solely for twisties?
Ray, thanks for keeping this thing going.
Seams like creating a problem to find a solution to me.
This has been done on rubber mounted bikes used at the track for over 25 years and as long as the front heim is centered on the swingarm axle and the rear heim is centered anywhere along the swingarm's center line things will track fine and not tear anything up.
The problem with running all the time is the drivetrain vibration is transferred to the frame and you will feel like you have a somewhat solid mount motor because the back mounts are solid in the front to back plane.
The good news is they come off with two bolts at the end of each race day if you do not care for the vibration.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 10, 2015, 06:13:18 AM
This has been done on rubber mounted bikes used at the track for over 25 years and as long as the front heim is centered on the swingarm axle and the rear heim is centered anywhere along the swingarm's center line things will track fine and not tear anything up.
The problem with running all the time is the drivetrain vibration is transferred to the frame and you will feel like you have a somewhat solid mount motor because the back mounts are solid in the front to back plane.
The good news is they come off with two bolts at the end of each race day if you do not care for the vibration.
Well said. I guess it's time to back away (well me anyway :smiled:) and let Ray decide how he wants to do that.
Here is my reason for attempting to do this swing arm bracing.
What I have learned is if I hammer hard on my bike my chain will loosen some.
Randy is having the same issue with his bike. It's obvious these bikes weren't designed to handle this kind of power in their stock configuration.
My brain has been racking overtime trying to figure out why our bikes are both doing this.
My conclusion is the added tq/HP is side loading the swing arm because the wheels axle nut is still tight after this happens. Hence the idea for the struts on the swing arm.
Ray
Just the suspension travel will cause the chain to loosen. When you "hammer" on it the weight transfers to the rear loading the rear suspension which can cause the chain to loosen.
edit* not saying you don't have side load going on as well.
Looks like a great idea , Not sure where you are buying heim joints but there is a vast quality in good ones vs poor .. This is a link on where I have bought for the sand rail and I can say that off road use with a 3000+ sand rail pushing 900+ hp ,... pounding on them they have held up. As well I use these on the race truck and again no issues for street and track use.
http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/c-1052072-fabricators-corner-chromoly-heims.html. (http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/c-1052072-fabricators-corner-chromoly-heims.html.)
http://www.qa1.net/rod-ends-and-related/rod-ends (http://www.qa1.net/rod-ends-and-related/rod-ends)
You have shown that you have thought this out with great detail. Looks great maybe one new item for your upcoming catalog :wink:
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 09, 2015, 07:23:18 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 09, 2015, 04:49:55 PM
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Yes, this is very critical or it will snap a bolt off. Snapping a front, not good.
Ron
This is BS.. Won't snap the bolt off from being out of align. Might tear up the motor mounts tho..
Well ya. However if the front pivot is still basically none rigid, what's the point of it all. :scratch: Just adding weight.
Ron
Quote from: harleytuner on June 10, 2015, 07:00:17 AM
Just the suspension travel will cause the chain to loosen. When you "hammer" on it the weight transfers to the rear loading the rear suspension which can cause the chain to loosen.
edit* not saying you don't have side load going on as well.
Nailed it. r1 decreases v. r2 constant
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2015, 07:27:43 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 09, 2015, 07:23:18 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 09, 2015, 04:49:55 PM
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Yes, this is very critical or it will snap a bolt off. Snapping a front, not good.
Ron
This is BS.. Won't snap the bolt off from being out of align. Might tear up the motor mounts tho..
Well ya. However if the front pivot is still basically none rigid, what's the point of it all. :scratch: Just adding weight.
Ron
Did Ray remove the rubber dognuts and replace with solids.. If so then I'm wrong.. :embarrassed:
I have done this to my FXR I also mounted the pivot shaft solid no (rubber doughnuts).
What there not to understand it helps keeps thing true as an arrow,but then again you need to have 160hp and a sticky tire to really get it.
Keep up the good work Ray your on the right path!!
John[attachimg=1]
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 10, 2015, 08:18:41 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2015, 07:27:43 AM
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 09, 2015, 07:23:18 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 09, 2015, 04:49:55 PM
Quote from: kd on June 07, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
Plan B is the way to do it Ray. You'll need the front heim to be on center with the swing arm pivot and the rear one centered in the swing arm attaching point. If not you'll have different arcs and the braces will consequently push and pull the swing arm while riding down the road. Nice stuff there buddy.
Yes, this is very critical or it will snap a bolt off. Snapping a front, not good.
Ron
This is BS.. Won't snap the bolt off from being out of align. Might tear up the motor mounts tho..
Well ya. However if the front pivot is still basically none rigid, what's the point of it all. :scratch: Just adding weight.
Ron
Did Ray remove the rubber dognuts and replace with solids.. If so then I'm wrong.. :embarrassed:
Good question. :nix: I'm assuming he didn't being a street bike as part of the plan. Big difference on effects.
Ron
Hey Ron
That was my cure for a bent swingarm shaft I have not bent one since.
I deal with my problems one at a time as they arrive.
John
Added; It' just a brace not the end of the world :nix: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: John/1 on June 10, 2015, 08:51:25 AM
Hey Ron
That was my cure for a bent swingarm shaft I have not bent one since.
I deal with my problems one at a time as they arrive.
John
Added; It' just a brace not the end of the world :nix: :hyst: :hyst:
Interesting.
Ron
I've tried to stay out of this one but I just see to many misconceptions.
Remember...the engine/trans/swingarm are one piece joined together.
Because of this, the point from A to B (pulley to pulley) will not change in lateral force so adding a strut for this purpose (chain becoming loose under acceleration)does nothing.
Adding a strut to either side of the swing will not prevent the swingarm from "flexing" side to side. You would have to move the forward joints outward MUCH further for struts to help that, angling the struts.
The struts will only help with the engine/trans/swingarm moving laterally within the chassis taking forward force off of the rubber engine mounts and transferring it to the blocks over the swingarm mounts.
That's all it will do.
I have the Glide Pro rear stabilizer axle and dough nuts on the rear.
Here is my issue.
The cams on the rear axle is marked with a line...and another line straight across marked on the swing arm. I can go out and hammer hard on the bike...come back and the chain is loose. The marks on both sides are still straight across from each other. I'll put the bike up on the lift...get the rear tire up in the air and loosen the axle nut...re-adjust the chain tension....torque the axle but back down...roll the bike off the lift and the chain's deflection is perfect again...and the marks on the axle cams and swing arm are straight across from each other again :banghead:
The only thing I could come up with was side load flexing...maybe I'm looking at this totally wrong. :nix:
Someone have the answer and solution I'm looking for?
Ray
The way I see it happening is load is applied, motor torque want to pull the chain forward, which will pull the motor backwards in it rubber mounts, and the swingarm forward, much more so on the sprocket side. The brace as shown would eliminate the swingarms tendency to go forward, but will not prevent the motor from pulling back under load. Only making everything truly bushed solid would stop it all IMO.
It may help enough to prevent axle swing (loose chain under loads), but vibration may rear its ugly head enough to make it impractical for continuous street use. jm2c fwiw Buffalo
Quote from: Buffalo on June 10, 2015, 10:04:12 AM
The way I see it happening is load is applied, motor torque want to pull the chain forward, which will pull the motor backwards in it rubber mounts, and the swingarm forward, much more so on the sprocket side. The brace as shown would eliminate the swingarms tendency to go forward, but will not prevent the motor from pulling back under load. Only making everything truly bushed solid would stop it all IMO.
It may help enough to prevent axle swing (loose chain under loads), but vibration may rear its ugly head enough to make it impractical for continuous street use. jm2c fwiw Buffalo
There are no rubber mounts between pulleys.
The engine/trans/swingarm are one unit.
The rubber mount (donut) is only to isolate the drivetrain from the chassis.
I was at Zippers a month or so ago getting the $100 tour lol. They showed me a product they are working on that ditches the junk cam style stock adjuster and replaces it with an old style adjuster where you tighten up each side then lock it down. I'd give them a call and wee if they have it ready to go yet.
I was at Zippers a month or so ago getting the $100 tour lol. They showed me a product they are working on that ditches the junk cam style stock adjuster and replaces it with an old style adjuster where you tighten up each side then lock it down. I'd give them a call and wee if they have it ready to go yet.
Ray.
If your chain isn't stretched, This can happen in spots anywhere in the chain, I'd inspect the swingarm bearings and pivot axle fitment inside the trans housing.
I'd also add more torque to the wheel axle nut.
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 06:52:54 AM
Here is my reason for attempting to do this swing arm bracing.
What I have learned is if I hammer hard on my bike my chain will loosen some.
Randy is having the same issue with his bike. It's obvious these bikes weren't designed to handle this kind of power in their stock configuration.
My brain has been racking overtime trying to figure out why our bikes are both doing this.
My conclusion is the added tq/HP is side loading the swing arm because the wheels axle nut is still tight after this happens. Hence the idea for the struts on the swing arm.
Ray
Unless you are bending the swingarm axle or swing arm bearings are shot, this type brace will not help the chain stay tight. The front sprocket is held to the trans case by the main drive gear and bearing, the swingarm is held to the same case by the swingarm axle so there is no flex there without bending the swingarm axle. The original reason for this type brace was to keep the drivetrain and rear wheel aligned with the frame and front wheel on launch and hard accelerations. The drive train would try to drive trough the three rubbermounts and in doing so things would go out of alignment and cause the bike to go hard to one side as the motormount heim joints rotated.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 10, 2015, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 06:52:54 AM
Unless you are bending the swingarm axle or swing arm bearings are shot, this type brace will not help the chain stay tight. The front sprocket is held to the trans case by the main drive gear and bearing, the swingarm is held to the same case by the swingarm axle so there is no flex there without bending the swingarm axle. The original reason for this type brace was to keep the drivetrain and rear wheel aligned with the frame and front wheel on launch and hard accelerations. The drive train would try to drive trough the three rubbermounts and in doing so things would go out of alignment and cause the bike to go hard to one side as the motormount heim joints rotated.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
[attachimg=1]I can over tighten a strut and cause misalignment With the rubber blocks, so we went solid.with my solid rear mounts I extend the strut a bit on the left side and pull a bit with the strut on the right.I can notice way less wear on the side of sprockets.I think I will go to a solid mount up front as well.
Yes I understand that if they are out further they would have more effect.
Like on my hitch extender that I made I also preload that as well
Hey Ray,turn your back wheel and see if your chain gets tight and loose while rotating.
Your next chain use a non o ring I have less trouble with them and they last longer.I also believe they are stronger.
John
The chain is good. Same tension by spinning the wheel 360* .
I put the Glide Pro axle and doughnuts in a few months ago...which was a noticeable improvement.
It did it with the stock axle and factory doughnuts too. I checked the stock axle...and it was straight.
I guess I'm baffled now...and I don't know what the fix is.
Ray
It'll take more than 360* of wheel rotation to run through the entire length of chain. One link stretched can cause the issue you have.
If you suspect the swingarm bearings and pivot axle are tight and straight then I'd replace the chain.
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 10:51:14 AM
The chain is good. Same tension by spinning the wheel 360* .
I put the Glide Pro axle and doughnuts in a few months ago...which was a noticeable improvement.
It did it with the stock axle and factory doughnuts too. I checked the stock axle...and it was straight.
I guess I'm baffled now...and I don't know what the fix is.
Ray
Not sure about glide pro,the weak point are those rubber block CHUCK EM your going to drive through them anyway.There is not that much more vibration anyhow and you also have more power on the way.
Swing arm axle through trans is not a great fit, ( think custom bronzemag bushing) ( BVBOB just ran into this on his own bike) then you have the slip fit into the swing arm and rubber bushings. ALL of this adds up to a little play and if you only look at one area it does not seem like much. However add them up and then add in the length of the swing arm it gets exaggerated on the end..
I have installed a poly bushing and that made a huge change.. However the vibration in the bike went up a fair amount.. Some give and take involved.
Great ideas all come from testing them.. Any thoughts on making the swingarm itself more rigid ??
sorry...I should of said spinning the chain around 360*...using the rear wheel off the lift. The chain is a EK ZZZ 530 chain with 11,100 pounds tensile strength.
I thought it was just my bike...but when Randy mentioned he is having the same problem I'm having...I began to wonder what is happening here. I have a 2008 frame and his is a 2013 frame. He has a chain conversion with a cush drive rear sprocket....and I have a steel sprocket with no cush drive.
So...I guess it's scrap the heim strut idea for now....and just live with readjusting my chain once every few days.
There has to be an answer to why this is happening...and finding a cure.
Ray
I will be running a Trac-Dynamics aluminum swingarm. Its supposed to be much more rigid than stock and a fair bit lighter as well. Something to consider, Ray?
I seen a beautiful aluminum swing arm for baggers at the Expo made by Brock that was suppose to have been coming out shortly after the show. I never gave it much thought after the show...but I guess I might be giving Brock a call.
I still don't know if a different swing arm would be the answer. :nix: ...but it might be with the older style adjusters on the ends instead of the cams.
I just don't want to keep throwing money at it if it's not fixing it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 12:04:18 PM
sorry...I should of said spinning the chain around 360*...using the rear wheel off the lift. The chain is a EK ZZZ 530 chain with 11,100 pounds tensile strength.
I thought it was just my bike...but when Randy mentioned he is having the same problem I'm having...I began to wonder what is happening here. I have a 2008 frame and his is a 2013 frame. He has a chain conversion with a cush drive rear sprocket....and I have a steel sprocket with no cush drive.
So...I guess it's scrap the heim strut idea for now....and just live with readjusting my chain once every few days.
There has to be an answer to why this is happening...and finding a cure.
Ray
I don't think any of us are saying you should scrap the idea. It's just not going to resolve the problem you're hoping it will. It will surely help the bike launch straighter on a sticky track. :bike:
I really think you should try a new chain. If it doesn't solve it at least you'll have another chain reserved. Like someone mentioned already, get a non o-ring style.
Personally...I would never run a chain. There are tons of bikes making WAY more power and torque still using a belt with no issues. Look at the big V-8 bikes, Boss Hoss for example.
Just throwing this out there. Could it be the chain itself and slight sprocket wear. Don't take much to change the setting. .0001 here and there over that much area adds up. Anything else that moves will tend to rebound once load is off and the chain tension should be the same or close to where you set it. Only thing that won't rebound is wear , lengthening the chain. I doubt very much you are compressing the steel in the swing arm or bending the frame or mount attach points. Just a thought. You could make up a fixture with two sprockets , one mounted in a slot with bolt and a graduated scale to measure sprocket travel. When the issue shows up again, the measurement can be compared to the previous one.
Ron
Hey Ray,Finish with building your swingarm struts!!It won't cost you much to get them done
Then you will see if it helps or not,so get back to work were waiting :hyst: :hyst:
John
http://tracdynamics.com/collections/harley-davidson-swingarms/products/harley-road-glide-swingarms (http://tracdynamics.com/collections/harley-davidson-swingarms/products/harley-road-glide-swingarms)
I have these on a couple of customers bikes and my own. Nice stuff. Dyna's and FXR's can have a problem with keeping the axle tight and adjusted. This cures that.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/10/98dc30e6ace95c5049fa3fbf899f8881.jpg)
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 10, 2015, 12:47:39 PM
http://tracdynamics.com/collections/harley-davidson-swingarms/products/harley-road-glide-swingarms (http://tracdynamics.com/collections/harley-davidson-swingarms/products/harley-road-glide-swingarms)
I have these on a couple of customers bikes and my own. Nice stuff. Dyna's and FXR's can have a problem with keeping the axle tight and adjusted. This cures that.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/10/98dc30e6ace95c5049fa3fbf899f8881.jpg)
That's very similar to what Zippers is developing. Only it retains the stock swingarm and no modification is needed. (if I remember correctly)
My ZX12R had adjusters like those.. It will hold up for sure..
That's a nice looking swingarm!!
Looks awesome but pricey! I just looked one up and in black powdercoat it comes in at just over $1300
Here's a thought. Next time you or Randy go out and put er through the paces and come back with a looser chain, measure the slack and then wait until the chain and sprockets "cool right down" and recheck the adjustment. You'll at least have an idea how much if any of the slack is due to growth from heat.
we have both tried tightening the axle nut way up over what it should be...to no avail.
The part I'm not understanding is why the chain gets loose and the marks on the cam and the swing arm are still inline with each other. I can put the bike up on the lift....jack the rear tire up off the lift...loosen the axle nut and slack the cam off and then re-adjust the chain and it ends right back up with the lines being straight across from each other and the chain is back in adjustment again. :nix:
This just baffles me why I've ended up with the same thing over and over again. :doh:
Randy's chain doesn't have but maybe 500 miles on his and I'm guessing I have 5,000 miles on mine.
I've got to be over looking something.
Ray
Quote from: John/1 on June 10, 2015, 08:36:10 AM
I have done this to my FXR I also mounted the pivot shaft solid no (rubber doughnuts).
What there not to understand it helps keeps thing true as an arrow,but then again you need to have 160hp and a sticky tire to really get it.
Keep up the good work Ray your on the right path!!
John[attachimg=1]
What did you use for swingarm bearings?
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 04:10:17 PM
we have both tried tightening the axle nut way up over what it should be...to no avail.
The part I'm not understanding is why the chain gets loose and the marks on the cam and the swing arm are still inline with each other. I can put the bike up on the lift....jack the rear tire up off the lift...loosen the axle nut and slack the cam off and then re-adjust the chain and it ends right back up with the lines being straight across from each other and the chain is back in adjustment again. :nix:
This just baffles me why I've ended up with the same thing over and over again. :doh:
Randy's chain doesn't have but maybe 500 miles on his and I'm guessing I have 5,000 miles on mine.
I've got to be over looking something.
Ray
You adjust the chain with the tire off the lift?
When the chain warms up it grows a bit?
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on June 10, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
When the chain warms up it grows a bit?
Bob
I doubt it would that much but that would be easy enough to check. After a ride when it's loose dint touch a thing and check it the following morning.
In the beginning it was adjusted with someone very close to my weight sitting on the bike.
I marked the cam and swing arm after I knew I had the proper deflection in the chain at it's tightest spot. I marked the tightest link in the chain also while it was on the bottom centered between the sprockets.
This correct adjustment point has proven not to change in the 5,000 miles I've put on this chain. I can re-adjust it and it comes out the same every time.
After a good hard days riding and when I get home and check the chain I will notice it is looser than it should be. I've even let it set for a couple of days before going to ride it again. I'll check it and it's as loose as it was when I parked it. I'll re-adjust it and it's good for riding again. It will not loosen up unless I hammer hard on it. If I just ride around casually on it for a week or so the chain stays right where it needs to be. But 5- 6 hard launches and bang some gears and it goes back to the loose side again.
Ray
I always thought the mount bolt was off center to the rear for a reason. What ever power you are getting to the road is putting that power back into the chasis at swing arm attachmnet.
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 04:10:17 PM
we have both tried tightening the axle nut way up over what it should be...to no avail.
The part I'm not understanding is why the chain gets loose and the marks on the cam and the swing arm are still inline with each other. I can put the bike up on the lift....jack the rear tire up off the lift...loosen the axle nut and slack the cam off and then re-adjust the chain and it ends right back up with the lines being straight across from each other and the chain is back in adjustment again. :nix:
This just baffles me why I've ended up with the same thing over and over again. :doh:
Randy's chain doesn't have but maybe 500 miles on his and I'm guessing I have 5,000 miles on mine.
I've got to be over looking something.
Ray
Here's 2 things you know.
(1) When you pour on the power a few times and the rear squats and the tire rises above the normal at rest (ride height) swing arm line resulting in a loose chain condition. The scribed marks for your adjustment point remain in alignment as though they have not rotated with the axle but the chain is loose.
(2) With the loose chain, when you lift the rear tire off the ground the tire hangs below the normal at rest (ride height) swing arm line, you loosen the axle, back off the cam and reset it to the scribed marks and it is back in adjustment (even though that's where you just started from with the loose chain).
Have you (or Randy) tried to drop the suspension like in step (2) and without loosening the axle or backing off the cams return the suspension to the at rest (ride height) swing arm line and set it down to see if the chain returns to it's adjustment on it's own?
If it does not return to adjustment, and you re-raise the rear and re-drop the suspension back below the (ride height) swing arm line then loosen the axle nut and return the swing arm to the ride height swing arm line and if that doesn't do it then raise, lower, and back off the cams and return it to the ride height .... Does the wheel move back (rearward between the swing arm inner contact surfaces) when you do any of that? Which one of those things actually causes it to move back to the adjusted position? ... or alternatively... Have you tried this all by loosening the axle nut and cams without dropping the suspension below the (ride height) swing arm line?
It's a longshot (more like a wild ass guess), but I'm wondering if the power-on pulls are actually flexing / bending the axle in a forward arc enough the account for the slack in the chain. With a bow in the axle the wheel may move forward on the inside of the swing arm but the outer ends can't because the cams prevent them. Bent axles are a known problem on high output bikes. If the axle nut is tight and doing it's job, it may hold it there and not allow it to reflex back (to the adjusted position) but not have enough strength to stop it from flexing forward under all of that power. This may actually leave witness mark from the spacers rocking or moving on the inner surface of the swing arm adjuster slots or the outer spacer surfaces. .... You may also be able to see and measure that movement in the wheel with a dial gauge when you loosen the axle nut (or next) the cams and determine what it is that actually releases the wheel to the adjusted position. You may find the rest of the engine / transmission mounts (and your exhaust) are loading up and help hold everything in place until you lower the axle and loosen the axle etc.. That movement (the other mounts) when you do this (if any), would also be measureable with a dial gauge but would take several of these processes to get all of the measurements (if any). By that I mean you'd have to go back out and beat on it to loosen the chain to get the other measurements unless you had access to a few dial gauges you could set up at all of the mounting points and do it all at once.
I realise that this is probably a little tough to follow, but I think you need to know what is failing before you can come up with a solution. Otherwise you're just gonna end up doing "stuff" on a guess and hoping for a fix. If you are lucky enough to stop it by doing that random "stuff" you won't be any the wiser to what's going on to cause it. You need to know that to come up with the right way to fix it. If you want to know, you'll have to take a deep breath and investigate it in an organised and controlled manner. Make a list and work through it. You're good at sharing what you find, so some one (if not yourself) will spot the clue that gives up the answer.
I also remember you had a key stock adjuster stop held on with a spring pin from when you changed your belt gearing. Is that still there? If so does Randy? If you still have it does it move?
Sorry for the long winded description but I couldn't think of another way to say it. I think it's what I would try and hope it will give up some valuable information. Who knows, because I may be way off track, it may not give up the answer, but it may confirm some of the things that are OK.
yes...I added the key stock to my swing arm and it's still there and hasn't moved.
Randy did not put any key stock on his swing arm.
I'll have to pull the rear axle and check it to see if it is bent and has an arc in it. I haven't done that check.
[attach=0]
Ray
Hey Ray,you can also add a outboard bearing on your rear sprocket.
John
John
I tried the primo version and that thing never worked well in fact it would push the bearing out of the billet support...
. That was on my 124 Softail and I had gone to a chain 3 inch open and 1 inch rear axle made from drill rod at the time. once I made the axle the bearing support was not needed..
However chain selection was important and I recall dealing with this as well but cannot tell you what chain was doing it. too long ago now
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2015, 05:20:53 PM
In the beginning it was adjusted with someone very close to my weight sitting on the bike.
I marked the cam and swing arm after I knew I had the proper deflection in the chain at it's tightest spot. I marked the tightest link in the chain also while it was on the bottom centered between the sprockets.
This correct adjustment point has proven not to change in the 5,000 miles I've put on this chain. I can re-adjust it and it comes out the same every time.
After a good hard days riding and when I get home and check the chain I will notice it is looser than it should be. I've even let it set for a couple of days before going to ride it again. I'll check it and it's as loose as it was when I parked it. I'll re-adjust it and it's good for riding again. It will not loosen up unless I hammer hard on it. If I just ride around casually on it for a week or so the chain stays right where it needs to be. But 5- 6 hard launches and bang some gears and it goes back to the loose side again.
Ray
Re read my post on checking the chain. If all your index marks remain as is, and a hard rear wheel brake event won't return the chain setting, not much else can explain it.
Ron
the final flow numbers as were reported to me today.
66mm T/Hog= 425 cfm's...started out as 310.
intakes= 387 cfm's
exhausts= 267 cfm's
Ray
VERY nice that is a killer amount of air.
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 12, 2015, 01:03:33 PM
VERY nice that is a killer amount of air.
:agree: It will be interesting to see what that extra air is worth in this build.
I wonder if that cap in the end of your exhaust will have to be removed because of the added flow numbers up stream?
Quote from: wfolarry on June 12, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 12, 2015, 01:03:33 PM
VERY nice that is a killer amount of air.
:agree: It will be interesting to see what that extra air is worth in this build.
And how the changes in velocity (if any) affect the power characteristics...
I believe at some point you can have to much airflow. You need to have the air stay in the combustion chamber long enough to atomize with the fuel. Too much air and you'll go backwards with the performance. This has to be close to the limits. Good luck Ray.
Quote from: wfolarry on June 12, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: Gmr-Performance on June 12, 2015, 01:03:33 PM
VERY nice that is a killer amount of air.
:agree: It will be interesting to see what that extra air is worth in this build.
no predictions from me.
Quote from: harleytuner on June 12, 2015, 05:09:21 PM
I believe at some point you can have to much airflow. You need to have the air stay in the combustion chamber long enough to atomize with the fuel. Too much air and you'll go backwards with the performance. This has to be close to the limits. Good luck Ray.
only time will tell Chad [attach=0]
Ray
That's the exciting part Ray. I think it'll work out, that's a bunch of air. Getting that much air is the hard part, restricting it if needed is easy though.
Yes...this is very exciting times for me. I know I'm getting closer now to getting it back together.
The 2 day turn around on the t/body after the heads were done...turned into three weeks as of this past Wednesday.
He just wouldn't accept the T/Hog not flowing as much...or more than the heads were.
He said with everything bolted together now on the flow bench it sounds like a big ol' jet airplane taking off.
Jay...I already opened the end cap up a touch more...and I will have Jim do some pulls with it off also so I can see the difference.
Ray
Quote66mm T/Hog= 425 cfm's...started out as 310
That explains why the 66 manifold doesn't make big power on heads that flow 320-330.
That intake manifold is a work of art . :beer:
Don't sweat the air flow . :scoot: stay on course and execute . :chop:
The TB, if it was a separate component, has the potential to flow 700cfm @28" or so. Then there is that manifold and a hard right and left turn.
Good luck with the build
I know a lot of time and work...with a bunch of testing along the way went into getting this t/body to flow like it is now.
He straightening out the hard turns into the ports it had and he was able to keep the air speed up.
It apparently takes quite a bit of work to get these 66mm T/Hogs to flow well.
Ray
It will accept as much air as the piston will pull in period. Having that air on tap is the winner. What springs? Can you rev to 7000 and get 180's?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 13, 2015, 10:42:37 AM
It will accept as much air as the piston will pull in period. Having that air on tap is the winner. What springs? Can you rev to 7000 and get 180's?
There en lies a good question. The heads and intake will support those kind of numbers IMO.
Quote from: gordonr on June 13, 2015, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 13, 2015, 10:42:37 AM
It will accept as much air as the piston will pull in period. Having that air on tap is the winner. What springs? Can you rev to 7000 and get 180's?
There en lies a good question. The heads and intake will support those kind of numbers IMO.
with the current valve train I have there is no plan for me to spin it past 6400 rpm's.
I believe he said he put an .800" lift set of beehive springs on the heads.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 13, 2015, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: gordonr on June 13, 2015, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 13, 2015, 10:42:37 AM
It will accept as much air as the piston will pull in period. Having that air on tap is the winner. What springs? Can you rev to 7000 and get 180's?
There en lies a good question. The heads and intake will support those kind of numbers IMO.
with the current valve train I have there is no plan for me to spin it past 6400 rpm's.
I believe he said he put an .800" lift set of beehive springs on the heads.
Ray
Room for more camshaft testing.... :teeth:
Interested to see the inside of the 66 thog if you have pics to share thanks
Ray, I didn't think that there was a beehive spring available to support a .800 lift cam? What spring is being used?
Quote from: jam65 on June 14, 2015, 07:53:08 PM
Ray, I didn't think that there was a beehive spring available to support a .800 lift cam? What spring is being used?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/14/a10295020629e5e7d873c91ae5f2d095.jpg)
They were removed from something like this. ;)
Jay...I'm not sure of the spring manufacturer.
I'll find out for you.
No Joe...that's not the springs. :hyst:
Ray
This is the closest spring I recall to .800". I bought a set years ago but never used them. Ended up trading them away though.
http://www.feulingparts.com/products/Valve-train/Beehive%20Valve%20Springs/Tc%2005-14,%20Xl%2004-14,%20Xr%201200%2009-12/1205 (http://www.feulingparts.com/products/Valve-train/Beehive%20Valve%20Springs/Tc%2005-14,%20Xl%2004-14,%20Xr%201200%2009-12/1205)
Both associated and pioneer make a .780 lift spring that install at 1.945-1.96 other than that I know of no .800 lift beehives.
With the weight of the valve at that diameter and rpm above 6k id think a reverse wound dual spring would be better.
Dampers are so 1995
Oddly enough unless you have something THIS serious the best way to get better flow with and without the head is to start with a smaller throttle body
SE58 to 60mm and a 58 T hog to 62 mm can outflow a 66 T hog
Quote from: No Cents on June 12, 2015, 06:17:41 PM
Yes...this is very exciting times for me. I know I'm getting closer now to getting it back together.
The 2 day turn around on the t/body after the heads were done...turned into three weeks as of this past Wednesday.
He just wouldn't accept the T/Hog not flowing as much...or more than the heads were.
He said with everything bolted together now on the flow bench it sounds like a big ol' jet airplane taking off.
Jay...I already opened the end cap up a touch more...and I will have Jim do some pulls with it off also so I can see the difference.
Ray
:pop:
:pop:
I believe it all was finally getting shipped out today.
I talked to him this morning and he wanted to change the valve springs out to a set of beehives that didn't have so high of over the nose pressure beings I was going to run it on the street.
I can finally see some day light at the end of the tunnel...I think. :wink:
Jay & Joe...I did ask him about the .800 lift beehives...and he said he ended up going to a dual spring...but apparently he had another change of heart and as of this morning and he was going with a set of beehives that has less pressure.
I just hope to see everything soon. I'm ready to get this thing bolted together and get back on the road again.
Ray
added later:
John...they won't out flow this 66mm T/Hog now. :wink: ...which I think actually measures out to be a 67mm now.
I think I have an ulcer Ray.
Quote from: No Cents on June 16, 2015, 04:35:50 PM
I believe it all was finally getting shipped out today.
I talked to him this morning and he wanted to change the valve springs out to a set of beehives that didn't have so high of over the nose pressure beings I was going to run it on the street.
I can finally see some day light at the end of the tunnel...I think. :wink:
Jay & Joe...I did ask him about the .800 lift beehives...and he said he ended up going to a dual spring...but apparently he had another change of heart and as of this morning and he was going with a set of beehives that has less pressure.
I just hope to see everything soon. I'm ready to get this thing bolted together and get back on the road again.
Ray
added later:
John...they won't out flow this 66mm T/Hog now. :wink: ...which I think actually measures out to be a 67mm now.
I know you're ready to get back in the saddle :up: Summer is here
I should of never let the wife sell that Low Rider I bought her.
It sucks not having a back up bike yet. :doh:
Ray
Thanks Ray for getting back to me on the valve springs. A little wrench work and some tolerance checks will get you up and running. I'm looking forward to the real feel on this mod. from your perspective and hope you will be happy with the outcome.
Quote from: No Cents on June 16, 2015, 04:35:50 PM
I believe it all was finally getting shipped out today.
I talked to him this morning and he wanted to change the valve springs out to a set of beehives that didn't have so high of over the nose pressure beings I was going to run it on the street.
I can finally see some day light at the end of the tunnel...I think. :wink:
Jay & Joe...I did ask him about the .800 lift beehives...and he said he ended up going to a dual spring...but apparently he had another change of heart and as of this morning and he was going with a set of beehives that has less pressure.
I just hope to see everything soon. I'm ready to get this thing bolted together and get back on the road again.
Ray
added later:
John...they won't out flow this 66mm T/Hog now. :wink: ...which I think actually measures out to be a 67mm now.
Great news Ray I can't wait to get my hands on those parts :baby:
me too.
A month being down during riding season wasn't a smart move on my part.
Hopefully it will be worth the wait.
Ray
Ray
You should like this
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Videos/th_11141984_10155584513695112_910870895_n_zpslk4rithb.mp4) (http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Videos/11141984_10155584513695112_910870895_n_zpslk4rithb.mp4)
Yikes
Steve...I've seen that exact video many times.
Ray
added later:
do you see the heim joint and strut on the right side of the swing arm?
It doesn't look like it's centered down the parallel of the swing arm itself.
That's a cool video. First time I watched it I was focused on the chain. Second time on the front wheel. Fun stuff.
Zach
Ray,
That's for the brake.
I couldn't tell Jason...thanks :up:
now the fun begins soon.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
I think this 66mm T/Hog is going to work very nicely now.
Ray
Just compared that throttle body to the one I have on the bench and all I can say is WOW!
it's definitely...ahh different than it's stock form...for sure. :soda:
Ray
Anyone got a pic of a 66 throttle hog that hadn't been ported to compare to Rays?
Me gots a chubby
Nice looking stuff. I tried to take a pic of the 66 but it's coated black on the inside and aren't worth sh€t.
Best thing about that video is the toe play.
It's alive again!
I'm running the big blue Siemen 7.6 injectors with this combo.
I'll need to mess with the map tomorrow to see if I can get it a little closer...but it's good to hear it running again.
https://youtu.be/gCwfGxIKb8c
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 20, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
It's alive again!
I'm running the big blue Siemen 7.6 injectors with this combo.
I'll need to mess with the map tomorrow to see if I can get it a little closer...but it's good to hear it running again.
https://youtu.be/gCwfGxIKb8c
Ray
I've been running a Siemen injector ever since I reached puberty..
Ray,
I'v Always been impressed with the Song Your Bike Sings....... Was Not disappointed this time around... :SM:
Really Nice...
Best to You...
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 20, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: No Cents on June 20, 2015, 07:21:38 PM
It's alive again!
I'm running the big blue Siemen 7.6 injectors with this combo.
I'll need to mess with the map tomorrow to see if I can get it a little closer...but it's good to hear it running again.
https://youtu.be/gCwfGxIKb8c
Ray
I've been running a Siemen injector ever since I reached puberty..
:hyst: Ya Max, but not the big blue one. I'd say pinkish.
Nice Ray. It sounds good. The end cap still sounds good too with the larger center. When do you get your tune check-up?
Hey Ray,your back in the saddle again :up: :up:
John
Just installed some 7.1's and hoping for 150 something. I hope they will idle a 95 below 1200.
The best pic I could get of a stock 66.
Sounds sick Ray, Kudos mate
Did you give your pipe a polish? I have a stainless pipe that has discoloured
RXBOB...I did clean it up some. I just used a red Scotch Brite pad on it while I had it apart...no polish.
Ray
Cheers Ray, keep up this sick work
thanks RXBOB :up:
I'm going to try to take it out for a little ride this morning and see how it feels. I know it's running a little rough but I want to see how it feels on the street.
I e-mailed Jim this morning and asked him what I needed to do to my map to adjust it for these bigger injectors...and haven't heard back from him yet.
The bike definately needs the Strokerjlk touch done to it now.
I went into my TTS map to take a look and I went into the tuning constants and I just see injector size listed. When I talked to Jim briefly the other day he mentioned something about changing something...but I'm not sure what he was talking about. :nix:
Ray
Ray, select the injector size value under ECM Tuning Constants, Then use the Increment and Decrement buttons to change the value to the new injector size.
[attach=0]
thanks Brian :up:
I know how to do that...but Jim was saying something about going down on some scale that had something to do with the injectors I thought. He said you go the opposite direction of what you would think. A bigger injector gets a smaller number entered. :nix: I just don't know exactly what he was talking about.
I just got back from a little 50 mile ride and the bike doesn't seem to want to idle properly and stumbles when you roll up to a stop sign or traffic light with the throttle all the way off. You have to keep the rpm's up at around 1,200 with the clutch pulled in or it wants to die. But once it's rolling and you turn the wick up just a touch...it comes to life quickly and wants to run like a scalded dog. Besides that idle issue the bike feels strong every where else. One more thing to note is when I tried the blue 7.6 injectors before in my old combo...the bike fired up the 1st time and wouldn't re-start after that. I ended up putting the yellow band 6.2 injectors back in and it fired up every time. I'm guessing the added air flow is allowing the 7.6 injectors to let the bike fire up every time with this newest combo.
Hopefully Jim will call me and tell me exactly what he was talking about doing.
Ray
Change the injector size to the injectors that are in the bike. No special knowledge needed to put correct injector size into the calibration.
Save it to a unique name so, if you go bad with the tune you can simply refashion back.
The bigger the injector size typed into the cal the leaner it will cause running to be.
Bob
I'd let the tuner do his job and not ride until he does his job. I doubt it will take more than just changing injector size. With the combination you got going with the new and improved airflow potential. You'll run out of headroom with cubic inch and reducing injector size might be called for. The cranking fuel is scaled to direct injector opening. That will need to be addressed also. These might be the things Jim probably wants to address. I understand it's hard to wait with something new, but your this far.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on June 21, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
I'd let the tuner do his job and not ride until he does his job. I doubt it will take more than just changing injector size. With the combination you got going with the new and improved airflow potential. You'll run out of headroom with cubic inch and reducing injector size might be called for. The cranking fuel is scaled to direct injector opening. That will need to be addressed also. These might be the things Jim probably wants to address. I understand it's hard to wait with something new, but your this far.
:agree:
You know how many guys toasted their motors this year because they couldn't wait for the dyno tune?
I keep a box of Kleenex handy every spring.
Jim sent me a new map to load into it.
It's 100% better at idle now. It will idle now when I come up to a stop sign without having to use the throttle to hold the rpm's up.
I shifted it a few times at 5K just to feel it...it's a rocket ship shifting there!
I hear everyone advice...and it will make the trip to Mattoon very soon. I just need to get with Jim and find out when he has an opening.
Ray
Ray, I know you're happy to be back on the road :up: :up:
What #s are you looking for this time around??
I'd guess he is looking to make just a little more than his buddy with the 143"er. LOL
Zach
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on June 22, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
Ray, I know you're happy to be back on the road :up: :up:
What #s are you looking for this time around??
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on June 22, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
Ray, I know you're happy to be back on the road :up: :up:
What #s are you looking for this time around??
152/152 :embarrassed:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 22, 2015, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on June 22, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
Ray, I know you're happy to be back on the road :up: :up:
What #s are you looking for this time around??
152/152 :embarrassed:
Ray
Good one! I was wondering what you were going to come back with :hyst:
I'm making no predictions [attach=0] ...we will just have to wait and see where it lands.
I will say this...it's a different bike. :smiled:
Ray
Is it groundhog different? :teeth: :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on June 22, 2015, 04:10:14 PM
I'm making no predictions [attach=0] ...we will just have to wait and see where it lands.
I will say this...it's a different bike. :smiled:
Ray
Is different good? lol I know what you mean!
Quote from: kd on June 22, 2015, 04:12:07 PM
Is it groundhog different? :teeth: :wink:
:hyst: :potstir:
Quote from: kd on June 22, 2015, 04:12:07 PM
Is it groundhog different? :teeth: :wink:
no...it's No Cents different. [attach=0]
no groundhogs found over in my barn. :hyst:
Ray
:hyst: :hyst: :up: :missed:
Damn groundhogs :potstir:
:agree:
Hey Ray,I believe you will have found more power!!! :up: :up:
John
Hey Ray, a little birdie told me you been cloud gazing! : :soda:
that's correct Gordon...but not on purpose. I shifted into 3rd gear @ 5,000 rpm's...and it decided to show me the sky rolling along at 70 mph.
I think my pants might of had some of this in them afterwards. :turd: :hyst:
It's definitely got some potential in it...for sure!
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 23, 2015, 02:59:20 PM
that's correct Gordon...but not on purpose. I shifted into 3rd gear @ 5,000 rpm's...and it decided to show me the sky rolling along at 70 mph.
I think my pants might of had some of this in them afterwards. :turd: :hyst:
It's definitely got some potential in it...for sure!
Ray
Be careful if you keep talking about poo Preacher son will show up in your thread
the bike is making the trip to Mattoon, Illinois Thursday morning to be left in the tuning hands of Strokerjlk.
Jim's got his work cut out for himself to dial this one in...but I think he's up to the task.
I know these bigger injectors are shooting some serious fuel to it. It will blacken a fresh set of plugs in a little 10- 15 mile ride.
After I seen that...the bike has been mostly sitting until I could make the trip to Jim's.
It feels stronger...so I didn't want to hurt it by riding it with it not being tuned properly.
Ray
Ray you will be like a expecting father again......... :hyst:
Stroker will do a fine job,I don't think you will be disappointed ........ :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on June 30, 2015, 03:16:37 PM
the bike is making the trip to Mattoon, Illinois Thursday morning to be left in the tuning hands of Strokerjlk.
Jim's got his work cut out for himself to dial this one in...but I think he's up to the task.
I know these bigger injectors are shooting some serious fuel to it. It will blacken a fresh set of plugs in a little 10- 15 mile ride.
After I seen that...the bike has been mostly sitting until I could make the trip to Jim's.
It feels stronger...so I didn't want to hurt it by riding it with it not being tuned properly.
Ray
Good deal Ray, Jim will dial it in :up:
Damn, this made my day seeing you comment on your thread Ray. I been patiently waiting for news of the bike. My favorite thread of all time. Keep it up and let that lion roar!
Jim...ready or not...here it comes tomorrow.
It's loaded up and strapped down on the trailer and backed into the barn for over night.
Now...I can only hope the rain holds off for the trip. I doubled up a couple plastic grocery bags and taped them over the air cleaner to keep it dry.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 01, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
Jim...ready or not...here it comes tomorrow.
It's loaded up and strapped down on the trailer and backed into the barn for over night.
Now...I can only hope the rain holds off for the trip. I doubled up a couple plastic grocery bags and taped them over the air cleaner to keep it dry.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray your bike really is a thing of beauty. Cant wait to see what the beast puts down!
Man, figured i would pop in and see how things were going here. I guess i am gonna sit down tonight and go over the last 50 or so pages i missed. Bike's looking great! Love the pipe!
Anyhow, hope everyone here's doing well! Happy 4th!
Good to hear from ya again Dan.
:agree:
good to see you pop in Dan. :up:
The bike ended up making 13 more hp and 3 more tq over where is was at. From 4500 rpm's it really takes off. Before 4500 you can almost lay the graph's from my old combo and this new one over each other.
The pipe is dictating the curve even with these higher flowing heads and t/body. It has basically the same curve as before...just pulling out higher past 4500 rpm's.
I'm going after it tomorrow and I plan on putting it straight up on the lift when I get it home.
I'll be making a few changes to see what it will take to quieten down the valve train.
Jim couldn't believe I brought him a bike with this much valve train noise.
I'll try eliminating the noise changing one thing at a time.
I'll change the lifters out first and I'll see how it sounds so it won't affect the tune. If it's still noisy I'll then change the cams and put the 640's in and see if that does the trick, then the rocker arms because it will already require another tune if I have to go that route.
I'll get the valve train tamed down one way or another.
Ray
163 or so HP out of a 124???? WOW!!!!! -A-
164.40/154.40 sae
Ray
Turn the stereo up and call it good :wink:
End cap in or out Ray?
the amp isn't big enough to drown it out. :hyst:
The valve train noise will be addressed.
Jay...it was tried both ways. The end cap stays.
Ray
Congrats Ray. Those are impressive numbers! Your hard work is paying off.
Not bad gains at all I know you were hoping for more. What is the seat pressure set at on the valves ? Why don't you ride for a day or two to relieve some stress then go back into it. That thing has got to be a beast.
Ray's numbers are sick for a 124!!! I think he did really, really well!!! Predictive software is very limited in it uses. I just hope the curves and numbers will be the same after the changes he makes to the valve train, and maybe cam, and that is the newest challenge. Regards, -Tutt
The pipe is dictating the curve even with these higher flowing heads and t/body.
Care to expand on this statement Ray? And I'd like to add "very nice Ray", it appears you moved it forward. :up:
Ray , great job on your build ! Thats getting it done big time :chop:
Dan , nice to see you posting again , Josh
there is more left in it.
The clutch slipped terribly to almost 4500 rpm's and it has a few more issues going on with it that I'm not willing to discuss right now until I get it back home and make some checks.
It fell a good 5- 10hp short of what we were expecting.
It is not right...and I will get to the bottom of it and get it straightened out.
Then we will see how it does.
Ray
kd...my old dyno graph and the new graph can almost be laid over each other until it hits 4500 rpm's...even with this badly slipping clutch.
"A"...the software was right in line once the clutch stopped slipping. At 6200 rpm's it was within 1hp of the prediction I'm told.
Nick...there is no riding it. It has a valve train issue that has to be addressed. Were hoping it didn't bend any valves.
After I get it home tomorrow...I should know more after investigating within the next few days. I just hope it's a simple fix...but that's not ever my luck. :banghead:
Ray
I see there's more to it than I figured well we all know you will get it done in no time . Then it will be time to have have few rear tires in the barn waiting for there turn to melt off onto the asphalt
We know you wont rest till its sorted Ray.
You moving your bed into the barn ?
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 03, 2015, 05:24:05 PM
We know you wont rest till its sorted Ray.
You moving your bed into the barn ?
where do you think I sleep now? :hyst:
All kidding aside. After spending a good part of the day on and off the phone with Jim and the head porter...we have came to the conclusion that we think we know what's wrong with the engine and why it was down on the expected power...beside the clutch slipping issue.
It will be addressed as soon as I can get what I need.
I've got my fingers crossed hoping we are right.
Ray
Don't you have the lock up hat on that barnett clutch?
yes...I guess that's why it's not slipping anymore after that rpm.
Before that rpm...it's blowing thru the clutch and the lock up.
Impressive huh?
I'm going to have to get some red springs involved I do believe.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: TXCHOP on July 03, 2015, 11:49:48 AM
Man, figured i would pop in and see how things were going here. I guess i am gonna sit down tonight and go over the last 50 or so pages i missed. Bike's looking great! Love the pipe!
Anyhow, hope everyone here's doing well! Happy 4th!
Good to see you back on here Dan, and a Happy Independence Day to you as well.
Are you going to post a sheet?
Quote from: No Cents on July 03, 2015, 04:29:37 PM
kd...my old dyno graph and the new graph can almost be laid over each other until it hits 4500 rpm's...even with this badly slipping clutch.
"A"...the software was right in line once the clutch stopped slipping. At 6200 rpm's it was within 1hp of the prediction I'm told.
Nick...there is no riding it. It has a valve train issue that has to be addressed. Were hoping it didn't bend any valves. The ccp's are not what they should be.
After I get it home tomorrow...I should know more after investigating within the next few days. I just hope it's a simple fix...but that's not ever my luck. :banghead:
Ray
If the ccp is off and the valve train that noisy, the tune and the peak numbers are off as well. Interesting to see what's causing the noise. I'd suspect with that much noise the valve lifts are not what they should be as well as opening and closing timing.
Ron
I found that the ccp's weren't able to be checked accurately because Jim didn't take my intake tube off so he wasn't able to hold the butterfly open.
I will check the ccp's when I get home.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 04, 2015, 10:40:24 AM
I found that the ccp's weren't able to be checked accurately because Jim didn't take my intake tube off so he wasn't able to hold the butterfly open.
I will check the ccp's when I get home.
Ray
:up:
Should have been able to reach his arm/hand down in there and wire it open after removing the only filter element. -Rick
Ray,
Sorry to hear you had some issues with your bike. Still strong numbers for a 124".
As far as the clutch slipping, not sure your peak numbers are going to improve as your slippage is downstairs, and peak rpm the clutch is locked up. This is similar to my clutch set up, with initial slippage to get the bike out of the hole without big wheelstands then locking up. 4,500 isn't that much rpm for full lock up as my streetbike leaves at 4,200-4,600 anyway.
Your clutch is great and your lockup is doing its job. You could add red springs and you should see initial power increases but maybe not so much at peak. The downside is too much initial torque, wheelies, and tire slip-no fun to get you from A to B. Your set up may be slightly different since you are on a heavy bagger though...
When we initially dynoed the 126" rebuild, it was blowing thru the Rivera up top and power was going away at peak (different issue than yours) which was corrected with my new clutch set up.
Unless you feel that the initial slip is holding back the motors ability to catch up on the drum when finally locked up, and you are running out of rpm due to the cam and engine profile, I would look elsewhere for any issues you think are there.
Quote from: No Cents on July 03, 2015, 02:28:21 PM
164.40/154.40 sae
Ray
Another 19 cubes would be interesting, :potstir:
Quote from: Durwood on July 04, 2015, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 03, 2015, 02:28:21 PM
164.40/154.40 sae
Ray
Another 19 cubes would be interesting, :potstir:
Well this is page 143 of the thread. Hmmmmmm :potstir: :chop:
Quote from: kd on July 04, 2015, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: Durwood on July 04, 2015, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 03, 2015, 02:28:21 PM
164.40/154.40 sae
Ray
Another 19 cubes would be interesting, :potstir:
Well this is page 143 of the thread. Hmmmmmm :potstir: :chop:
:up: :up: :SM: :baby:
here are a few graph's to ponder over.
It's already up on the lift and I will address a few issues and make some changes. Then it will go back to Mattoon for a re-tune.
I think there was some left on the table.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
blue is the old combo
red is the new combo
Ray
I just got thru checking the ccp's.
Both cylinders were almost identical.
[attach=0]
Ray
Wow, that's an impressive looking sheet. Good job.
:agree: You should be proud of what you've accomplished here Ray.
WOW,Ray good head sure help above 5000 congrats
John
Quote from: John/1 on July 05, 2015, 08:58:44 AM
WOW,Ray good head sure help above 5000 congrats
John
Good head can help everywhere and everything. :wink:
Bob
Heck of a job Ray. That Duracell will be a blast to ride!
Quote from: No Cents on July 04, 2015, 05:44:23 PM
I just got thru checking the ccp's.
Both cylinders were almost identical.
[attach=0]
Ray
good deal Ray. that makes everyone feel better. :up:
either you have to use a bigger 90 deg pipe or I have to chop a few more fingers off, if I am going to "reach his arm/hand down in there and wire it open after removing the only filter element"... :hyst:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/BB98E181-668E-4C0B-BD1E-6AEC2792D104_1.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/BB98E181-668E-4C0B-BD1E-6AEC2792D104_1.jpg.html)
as always...... nice job :beer:
excited about next round :scoot:
Saying that 124 is healthy would be an understatement, it on steroids! Impressive because it's making that much HP and still a ton of TQ to boot. Nice job, and congrats!
:agree: Great job Ray and Jim ! Awesome results from that 124" !!
Seeing the hp increase IS impressive. Seeing the torque stay above 150 for another 1100rpm up the ladder is even more impressive in my mind. Your head and intake mods are proving their worth for sure.
Brilliant!! Can't wait to see the next steps to get "what was left on the table". Wow Buffalo
Home run for sure. Good job NoCents, I'm glad this turned out well for you. Can't wait to see round 2!
I made some nice head way today.
I pulled the tank and stripped the exhaust and air cleaner off and pulled the valve train apart.
I put in the S&S 640's this go around and I have it buttoned back up as far as I can go until my new lifters come in. I hope to see them mid week.
I sent Chance @ Barnett an e-mail today asking him what do I need to do to fix the clutch slipping so badly down low. I pulled the lock up off and I will go back to all 6 green springs for now...instead of 3 green and 3 gold.
I noticed the washers that go under the six bolts that hold the lock up on were dis-formed and beveled out. I'm going to take a bolt and washer with me in the morning to the fastener store and see if we can come up with something a little stronger than these weak aluminum washers that were sent with the clutch. I think they will have something that will cure that issue.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray,
If you replace the lifters along with the cams and the noise went away how will you know what fixed it? Don't you want to use that cam if possible? Maybe it's just the lifters?
One change at a time is advised here for sure.
Bob
Maybe the clutch work could reap some rewards after all.
Not sure what your other issues are, but sounds like you are making headway-
Are you going S&S Premiums w/ limiters?
BTW, my power graph with my EZ .675 's looks a lot like the old .640's I used to run, just more of it and it carries out to 6,800 instead of being done at 6,400-
I loved those .640's I ran for years....
Quote from: FLTRI on July 05, 2015, 06:37:54 PM
Ray,
If you replace the lifters along with the cams and the noise went away how will you know what fixed it? Don't you want to use that cam if possible? Maybe it's just the lifters?
One change at a time is advised here for sure.
Bob
Bob...I already know what the CR651 cams sounded like with the S&S Premium limited lifters I use to have. The valve train noise was not bad at all. The CR651's have always had a little noise associated with them because of their ramp design...but the noise this time was over the top for me and Jim too. I've been wanting to try the 640's for some time now. They have been sitting on the shelf for two years now.
According to gordonr the 640 cams show a 1- 2 hp gain on top end using his Accelerator Pro software...and if they lose a touch off the bottom end and I'm able get the clutch to hook up sooner...I figure it might be a trade off. Which wouldn't be a bad thing if the valve train noise subsides. I can't stand a noisy valve train like it had on this last trip to Jim's.
Jim seemed to think the lifters I had in it were going soft after the engine came up to full operating temp. He said they reminded him of the old Velva Touch lifters he ran once before. I rode the bike when I got it home from Jim's and I knew right there and then that it had to go up on the lift and the noisy valve train had to be addressed. If the lifters were indeed going soft...I think the engine should have more in it with the cams not being able to reach their full lift potential. I'm thinking it suffered all the way across the board.
Paul....yes I'm going back to the S&S Premium limited lifters again.
Ray
How much preload do you run on the s&s premium limited lifters?
I get the cam on it's base circle (both lifters at their lowest point) for whatever cylinder you want to start with. I also have the rocker box lids off so I can watch the rocker arms and valve springs.
I'll lengthen the p/rod until I can see the valve start to open. Once I see the valve is opening...I'll slowly back the p/rod off (shortening it) until I feel the valve close and I'm able to spin the p/rod freely between my fingers. Once I can spin it I'll back it off one more flat and lock it down. That p/rod is done. Do the other p/rod for that cylinder the same way.
Then rotate the engine over so the other cylinders cams are on their base circle...and repeat the same process.
wfolarry gave me this tip for adjusting limited lifters. It works great!
Ray
Ray
just get 6 of their strongest springs and 20 shims. just put the 6 strongest springs in for the dyno.
when you want to dial it in for the street, start with three of the strongest ,then 3 lighter springs. then you can adjust in small increments for the street or launch.
if you can get the spring compression numbers from them, that would put you in the ball park. if you have a way to compress them and measure the actual pressures that will tell you exactly what you have.. then you can adjust in small 10-20 lbs increments with shims. I am at 596 lb and no lockup with the bandit. it slips pretty good on the dyno. still a little to much at times. especially in 2nd and 3 rd @ wot shifts. I need a MTC multi finger lock up bad.
load it up until you can barley pull it in for the dyno :up:
Ray,
What lockout are / were you running? How many miles??
Jim, DON'T CUT ANY MORE FINGERS OFF! That sarcasm was directed at the size of the sewer pipe Ray has on there.
Saw a few of those MTC lock-ups at Lozano Brothers last year. -Rick
For what you are trying to do I would use the limiter + the lifter as well. ( thought you bought a set some time ago) This is one more item then you can check off the list to know that it is not creating a issue. You can always remove the limiter at a later date if for what ever reason you feel the need to to. :up:
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on July 05, 2015, 11:37:53 PM
Jim, DON'T CUT ANY MORE FINGERS OFF! That sarcasm was directed at the size of the sewer pipe Ray has on there.
Saw a few of those MTC lock-ups at Lozano Brothers last year. -Rick
:up:
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 06, 2015, 06:17:10 AM
For what you are trying to do I would use the limiter + the lifter as well. ( thought you bought a set some time ago) This is one more item then you can check off the list to know that it is not creating a issue. You can always remove the limiter at a later date if for what ever reason you feel the need to to. :up:
Steve...I had the S&S Premium's w/limiters in the bike and I switched them out to try another lifter.
Tell me what you don't see in this picture?
These lifters were wiped off on the outside when I took them out of the bike yesterday and I placed them upside down on a shop paper towel for over 24 hours now.
I think I found the cause of my valve train noise. :wink:
These are the aluminum washers that go under the 6 bolts that hold my Barnett lock up onto the clutch basket. They are crushed and beveled as you can see. I went to the fastener store this morning and I got steel replacement washers and I put the lock up back on with all 6 green springs this time.
[attach=0]
Ray
What lifters are those that you took out?
Quote from: No Cents on July 05, 2015, 08:25:15 PM
I get the cam on it's base circle (both lifters at their lowest point) for whatever cylinder you want to start with. I also have the rocker box lids off so I can watch the rocker arms and valve springs.
I'll lengthen the p/rod until I can see the valve start to open. Once I see the valve is opening...I'll slowly back the p/rod off (shortening it) until I feel the valve close and I'm able to spin the p/rod freely between my fingers. Once I can spin it I'll back it off one more flat and lock it down. That p/rod is done. Do the other p/rod for that cylinder the same way.
Then rotate the engine over so the other cylinders cams are on their base circle...and repeat the same process.
wfolarry gave me this tip for adjusting limited lifters. It works great!
Ray
That is basically out of their directions but maybe you just forgot to type the step of waiting a period of time for bleed down to make sure you are not sitting on oil but sitting on limiter. Finding bottom zero lash can be tricky.
Ray , why hasnt any oil drained out of your lifters after sitting all night ?
Have you opened them up to see if the plunger(s) are bottomed and stuck?
I supplied the lifters to Ray as a beta test, no charge. Sorry to hear they didn't work out. They had only been tested in lower lift applications. We can theorize till the cows come home why they didn't work but it is not necessary or productive. There are many good quality proven lifters available including the Delphi's I sell that will do the job assuming the mating parts cooperate.
Thanks Don, for speaking up. I wasn't trying to call you out. Just hadn't seen the big wheel lifter and didn't recognize it. Are those the .750 wheel ones you mentioned? I don't think this goes one way or the other for your lifters. More of a incomplete test.
Oh no problem Jason, just want to be upfront, proactive, and transparent to avoid unneeded BS
It is a Morel BBC lifter and IME I haven't found any other that leak better, these tested at ~ 50 seconds with kerosene. For comparision the delphis including S&S test in the 30-35 second range. OEM -C lifters 15 seconds best. This is done with a kent moore tester at .125 stroke. I suspect the bearing bands are not placed properly to match the oil feed location at higher lifts so the feed is restricted. IMO I choose to abandon the part and look toward a bushing lifter as an upgrade. I do like the .750 wheel and see only positive benefits.
Don...I wasn't going to say on the open forum where these lifters came from. It's not my style to start BS when a member offers me the chance to try out a new product for free...and I do honestly thank you for giving me the opportunity to try them. I just wished they would of worked out.
As far as I can tell they were not pumping hardly any oil up to my rocker box's.
When I pulled the rear rocker box lid off yesterday it had only a very light film of oil on everything. That scared me. I normally see a puddle of oil on the low side of the rocker box when I pull the lid off. The front lower rocker box might of had at max a 1/4 teaspoon of oil sitting in the low side of it.
I can honestly say that if this lifter could be made to over come this issue...it looks like one of the heavy dutiest lifters I've ever seen for a T/C application. The 3/4" wheel is impressive to say the least. It must have something to do with the valving inside the lifter and if I was you Don I won't give up on it just yet. You just need to figure out what it will take for these to pump oil on a higher lift cam application.
Ray
The lifter has .139 travel and they were set at .120. You may have not lost too much albeit noisy. But I guess we will never know because two and possibly more changes are going to happen now at once. The scientific method goes out the door and a reliable hypothesis goes right with it.
No put down Ray but just saying the conclusions need to be based on good A to B testing. It is your bike and you can do whatever you want, of course, but then to try and develop a hypothesis becomes a stretch sometimes. In the end it would save you time and money testing this way. I am trying to offer an opinion to help again not put down or discount the results thus far.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 06, 2015, 10:17:55 AM
Oh no problem Jason, just want to be upfront, proactive, and transparent to avoid unneeded BS
It is a Morel BBC lifter and IME I haven't found any other that leak better, these tested at ~ 50 seconds with kerosene. For comparision the delphis including S&S test in the 30-35 second range. OEM -C lifters 15 seconds best. This is done with a kent moore tester at .125 stroke. I suspect the bearing bands are not placed properly to match the oil feed location at higher lifts so the feed is restricted. IMO I choose to abandon the part and look toward a bushing lifter as an upgrade. I do like the .750 wheel and see only positive benefits.
I'm running a .760 wheel and it created problems for me. The S&S was at .690" diameter. I clayed my build for last time with the new parts and found my piston to valve clearance shrunk from .092" to .030" and discovered with my lobe profile the intake valve is opening 4* earlier and causing the issue. My only recourse was to call the "cam guy" Dave at Andrews and ask if he could correct the issue with a regrind of my original custom cam with the math of the larger wheel diameter. He responded positively. I like the idea of a larger wheel on less radical builds but I cant find any programs to play with to figure the parameters on what you could end up with. With so many lobe profiles it looks like without using a hands on approach to get to an answer, a plotted cam profile will be the only way to figure it out.
Don...I didn't have them set @ .120 deep.
With my 32 tpi Smith Brothers p/rods I went 3 full turns and 3 flats from zero lash.
If my math is correct that would have put them @ .109 deep.
I don't know if this blocked the oiling hole or not. :nix:
I will be changing the cams and lifters only this time.
I know exactly what the CR651 cams sounded like and this noise was not anything that I had ever heard before with these cams.
I should of made a video of the noise coming from the valve train and possibly you would understand what I was hearing.
I'll get it handled...and all is good.
Ray
Quote from: gordonr on July 06, 2015, 02:00:17 PM
I'm running a .760 wheel and it created problems for me. The S&S was at .690" diameter. I clayed my build for last time with the new parts and found my piston to valve clearance shrunk from .092" to .030" and discovered with my lobe profile the intake valve is opening 4* earlier and causing the issue. My only recourse was to call the "cam guy" Dave at Andrews and ask if he could correct the issue with a regrind of my original custom cam with the math of the larger wheel diameter. He responded positively. I like the idea of a larger wheel on less radical builds but I cant find any programs to play with to figure the parameters on what you could end up with. With so many lobe profiles it looks like without using a hands on approach to get to an answer, a plotted cam profile will be the only way to figure it out.
I can see the lifter axle being .035" higher with a big wheel lifter, but why would that translate to an earlier open (and later close?) Clearly part of valve geometry I don't understand.
Ray, I seem to recall running a lifter with the plunger too deep closes off the feed hole, in that case how would oil get in?
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 06, 2015, 10:17:55 AM
I suspect the bearing bands are not placed properly to match the oil feed location at higher lifts so the feed is restricted.
I took this as the oil feed hole on the outside of the lifter. Not the one on the inside? :nix:
Many performance car lifters recommend 3/4 of a turn pre-load from zero lash.
This may very well have been a case of the inner piston being to low and shutting off the supply hole.
Quote from: rageglide on July 06, 2015, 02:15:10 PM
Quote from: gordonr on July 06, 2015, 02:00:17 PM
I'm running a .760 wheel and it created problems for me. The S&S was at .690" diameter. I clayed my build for last time with the new parts and found my piston to valve clearance shrunk from .092" to .030" and discovered with my lobe profile the intake valve is opening 4* earlier and causing the issue. My only recourse was to call the "cam guy" Dave at Andrews and ask if he could correct the issue with a regrind of my original custom cam with the math of the larger wheel diameter. He responded positively. I like the idea of a larger wheel on less radical builds but I cant find any programs to play with to figure the parameters on what you could end up with. With so many lobe profiles it looks like without using a hands on approach to get to an answer, a plotted cam profile will be the only way to figure it out.
I can see the lifter axle being .035" higher with a big wheel lifter, but why would that translate to an earlier open (and later close?) Clearly part of valve geometry I don't understand.
The roller is .035" wider too. A larger wheel will lay up on the ramp of the lobe earlier (higher lift) at the same position than a smaller roller will.
Quote from: gordonr on July 06, 2015, 03:07:24 PM
The roller is .035" wider too. A larger wheel will lay up on the ramp of the lobe earlier (higher lift) at the same position than a smaller roller will.
Got it thx! I was to focused on center line.
Chance from Barnett answered my e-mail today. We e-mailed each other back and forth a few times talking about springs and heavier lock up weights.
I ended up sending him my clutch graph and a dyno sheet. He was impressed with the power my bike was making for a NA engine.
He is sending me a care package that he says should take care of the clutch slippage. :smile:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 06, 2015, 05:25:36 PM
Chance from Barnett answered my e-mail today. We e-mailed each other back and forth a few times talking about springs and heavier lock up weights.
I ended up sending him my clutch graph and a dyno sheet. He was impressed with the power my bike was making for a NA engine.
He is sending me a care package that he says should take care of the clutch slippage. :smile:
Ray
mmmmmm care package,,,,,,,, wonder if you will get a few nappies and some extra wipes for that occasion when ya pointing at the sky :hyst:
I know they specify .050" for most of their lifters.(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/d79e49793625e8a1759bd4d0ea12653d.jpg)
Quote from: joe_lyons on July 07, 2015, 05:25:23 AM
I know they specify .050" for most of their lifters.(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/d79e49793625e8a1759bd4d0ea12653d.jpg)
Hmm. .0012-.0014 bore clearance on alum. I've always bitched about the sloppy holes in the HD. I think mine were .002 :doh: And that would be the tight spots. :hyst:
Ron
I wonder if a little of that is for the higher temps that our motors get up to. It would be interesting to check the fit at 250° to see the change.
The delphi lifter specs were even a bit tighter for aluminium, I had posted the link to their spec sheet last year, but I see the Delphi page is now gone.
The morel I supplied was with a recommended preload of .075 but it is not critical they can be run bottomed without issue, in other words oil supply problems.
As far as the wheel diameter it may have influenced the result in a positive way but we will never know the answer there.
Quote from: joe_lyons on July 07, 2015, 05:56:35 AM
I wonder if a little of that is for the higher temps that our motors get up to. It would be interesting to check the fit at 250° to see the change.
I always felt .0008-.001 would be optimum in these engines due to them seeing a tad higher temps then say a liquid cooled engine. :nix: Anyway, I find the new lifter fit on the big twins to be :sick: At 250 you'd likely gain a thou or close to it. If it starts at .002, there's some serious leakage in those bores it if comes close to .003. Oil takes the path of least resistance so the feed hole is second in line to get oil. I really am amazed it works as well as it does. It could work better though. :wink:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on July 07, 2015, 06:23:24 AM
Quote from: joe_lyons on July 07, 2015, 05:56:35 AM
I wonder if a little of that is for the higher temps that our motors get up to. It would be interesting to check the fit at 250° to see the change.
I always felt .0008-.001 would be optimum in these engines due to them seeing a tad higher temps then say a liquid cooled engine. :nix: Anyway, I find the new lifter fit on the big twins to be :sick: At 250 you'd likely gain a thou or close to it. If it starts at .002, there's some serious leakage in those bores it if comes close to .003. Oil takes the path of least resistance so the feed hole is second in line to get oil. I really am amazed it works as well as it does. It could work better though. :wink:
Ron
No crap!!! The first time I seen the lifter bore in the twin cams I thought to myself, "did they bore these with a cordless drill?"
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 07, 2015, 06:13:35 AM
The morel I supplied was with a recommended preload of .075 but it is not critical they can be run bottomed without issue, in other words oil supply problems.
As far as the wheel diameter it may have influenced the result in a positive way but we will never know the answer there.
:scratch:
I'm confused Don.
You say .075" deep and then say they can be ran near the bottom like a limited lifter?
I tried .075" as you suggested initially...and they rattled terribly on cold start up. I tried your next suggestion at .100" deep. They only rattled for a few minutes that way on cold start up. I went to .109" deep and the cold start up rattle stopped...but apparently something wasn't letting the lifters pump oil thru them like they should when I set them that deep.
Did it cut off the oiling passages that deep? :nix:
Just to ease my curiosity I took one of the lifters apart yesterday...it might of had a pea size amount of oil in the entire lifter body.
The lifter is very impressive looking. If someone could figure out what it would take for these lifters to oil properly with setting them a little deeper so they don't rattle on cold start ups...it would be a great lifter.
Ray
Ray,
Can't go wrong with your choice of Premiums with limiters-much improved over the old S&S lifters in many ways.
Working great on my rebuild since installed with .700 +.
Then you can move to any other issues and let er rip...... :up:
I agree with Paul no need to take up bandwidth on a topic that needs no more than a part change. And I don't want to just add to the confusion.
:agree: Paul...that's the plan.
Don...the lifter conversation will stop. I'm sorry they didn't work out in my application.
Ray
Well we are all the sort that want answers and I will say after some thought on this that I believe the root cause of your noise issue with these lifters is the oil was too high of a viscosity to properly bleed the lifter and they essentially air locked. These are morels race pro lifters that rpm to over 7500 in cars and boats with high spring pressure heavy valve trains and they only have .0003 clearance on the piston. Morel insists on 10/30 or max 10/40 oil. It would take a paradigm shift of a legacy belief that such a low viscosity oil will lubricate a Harley properly. Frankly I was first introduced to the concept by Dan Thayer, a guy that knows his oiling systems.Personally I have no problem doing so and actually with a tight lifter like this and the windage friction loss would be less, may be worth a few HP. Plus less air entrained in the oil another benefit. All adds up to lower oil heat.
The preloaded is not a factor as long as there is enough to compensate for growth.
Please excuse my waffling on the cause but I had to consult with the manufacturer. Based on the other similar lifters on the market which will rattle cold on heavy oil I didn't think the viscosity was so important but those lifters have more clearance built in for heavier oil same as Morels low end street lifter which is a joint venture with Eaton.
Just a FYI for any that may want to know.
Ray what oil did you run in the bike when you sent it to Jim's?
If the bike was making that much noise why did it get tuned? Was it quiter when you took it than when you got it back?
Eric...Valvoline VR1 50wt was in the bike when it got tuned.
Chad...I knew it had some valve train noise but I didn't ride the bike that much before taking it to Jim's to be tuned. I went from the 6.2 injectors to the bigger 7.6 injectors and the little I rode the bike it would turn the plugs black in 10 miles because it was shooting too much fuel to it...so it mostly sat until it went to Jim's. I didn't want to wash out the cylinders with too much fuel and hurt it.
Jim said when the bike came up to full temp the valve train noise got a lot worse...which I apparently didn't have it hot enough around the house to know that before taking it to him...or it would of been address beforehand.
Ray
I guess that's my point Ray, if the noise got worse why on earth would the tune continue?
Jim called me about the valve train noise and he explained to me what was going on with it.
The tuning stopped short.
That's why I think there is more left in it still.
To answer the 2nd part of you question Chad.
When I got the bike home from Jim's I started it up and the valve train sounded the same as before I took it to him. Noisy...but tolerable. I then rode it for 10- 15 minutes and I got it up to full operating temp to see what Jim was talking about.
After the ride it went straight up on the lift because I knew I had to address the issue.
Yes...it got louder at full operating temp.
Ray
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 07, 2015, 01:45:23 PM
Well we are all the sort that want answers and I will say after some thought on this that I believe the root cause of your noise issue with these lifters is the oil was too high of a viscosity to properly bleed the lifter and they essentially air locked. These are morels race pro lifters that rpm to over 7500 in cars and boats with high spring pressure heavy valve trains and they only have .0003 clearance on the piston. Morel insists on 10/30 or max 10/40 oil. It would take a paradigm shift of a legacy belief that such a low viscosity oil will lubricate a Harley properly. Frankly I was first introduced to the concept by Dan Thayer, a guy that knows his oiling systems.Personally I have no problem doing so and actually with a tight lifter like this and the windage friction loss would be less, may be worth a few HP. Plus less air entrained in the oil another benefit. All adds up to lower oil heat.
The preloaded is not a factor as long as there is enough to compensate for growth.
Please excuse my waffling on the cause but I had to consult with the manufacturer. Based on the other similar lifters on the market which will rattle cold on heavy oil I didn't think the viscosity was so important but those lifters have more clearance built in for heavier oil same as Morels low end street lifter which is a joint venture with Eaton.
Just a FYI for any that may want to know.
I got the same info from a second party that talked to Morel directly about his lifter a couple years ago over lifter issues we had with the Bonneville bike. Morel had told him he never made a lifter for the HD nor would it work based on what you just wrote. Not to say a solid wouldn't work? I also have run other racing car lifters that were only designed for .015" adjustment but one of the guys on our team thought otherwise and ended up blackening the valves and seats because at high rpm the lifters over pumped (lack of spring pressure) while even running 0-20w. So we (I) abandoned the idea of using these types of lifters. Revalving would be a stretch but the idea to run a larger roller hydraulic would make less performing heads perform better.
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2015, 03:43:26 PM
Jim called me about the valve train noise and he explained to me what was going on with it.
The tuning stopped short.
That's why I think there is more left in it still.
To answer the 2nd part of you question Chad.
When I got the bike home from Jim's I started it up and the valve train sounded the same as before I took it to him. Noisy...but tolerable. I then rode it for 10- 15 minutes and I got it up to full operating temp to see what Jim was talking about.
After the ride it went straight up on the lift because I knew I had to address the issue.
Yes...it got louder at full operating temp.
Ray
Makes sense
The new S&S Premium lifters w/limiters is suppose to be here tomorrow according to the tracking #'s.
I should have it fired back up by tomorrow night.
I'm hoping it sings a different tune.
Ray
Good input Gordon thanks for that.
My past experience was using these was with TC46 Wild things cams and they were quiet, that was with 20w/50 IIRC. These were also experimented with by Joe Mondello, Ron Head (HTT POORBOY), and Steve / GMR.
Can't exactly wrap my head around the bushing lifters in hydraulics but I suppose that is where the HD high performance world will go next.
Oh well that is a new topic.
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
The new S&S Premium lifters w/limiters is suppose to be here tomorrow according to the tracking #'s.
I should have it fired back up by tomorrow night.
I'm hoping it sings a different tune.
Ray
I hope so too. I think it's time for some seat time on that thing. :up:
It's scheduled to go back to Jim's this Saturday! :wink:
Ray
With CR651 or S&S 640?
Cant wait to see what the 640's do in your bad a$$ 124" !
S&S 640's
Does the 640 have the same base circle as 651? Gear drive, correct?
yes gear drive.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 07, 2015, 05:38:17 PM
S&S 640's
Gotta admit this cam seems to work well in virtually anything you put it in.
I've tuned small builds to big builds and never disappoints.
Along with that, nice and quiet!
Bob
Quote
...These were also experimented with by Joe Mondello, Ron Head (HTT POORBOY)...
It's been some years ago, but Ron sent me one if not two builds to tune that had the LS-1 Morel's.
For the cams being used, the valve train noise was commensurately quiet .
A slot was milled in the lifter body to better align the oil passages of the case and the lifter.
Not long thereafter, Bob Wood intro'd his Morel for Harley applications and were subsequently used.
John...I knew Bob has his lifters made by Morel for some years now. I had tried a set of Bob's lifters years ago and I just couldn't handle them rattling on cold start ups.
These lifters Don sent me to try looked very impressive at first look out of the box. The .750" wheel and the quality of the lifter looked unsurpassed.
When I 1st installed them at Don's suggestion of .075" deep from zero lash and I fired the bike up it rattled for 5 minutes and eventually they seemed to pump up and the rattling slowed down. They immediately gave me the 1st impressions of Bob's directional lifters. I let the bike sit for an hour or so and fired it up again. Once again it rattled. That's when I pm'd Don and told him what I was experiencing. Don suggested to go deeper to .100" from zero lash. I re-adjusted the p/rods and fired it up again. This time the rattling time on cold start up was cut in half...but they still rattled. I pm'd Don and told him what I had. He said I could set them off the bottom like a limited lifter and I thought about it but decided to go just a little deeper into the lifter and see what it did. I went to .109" from zero lash and when I fired the bike up it didn't rattle on cold start up. I figured all was good and off to Jim's it went to be tuned.
I'm not a lifter engineer by no means and I wish I knew what it would take for these lifters to pump oil properly thru them when they are set deep enough so they don't rattle on cold start ups.
At this point of adjustment I thought all was good. But...apparently I found out that they were not made for setting a p/rod this deep.
If this lifter was somehow machined so it could oil properly with the p/rods set as deep as they need to go to prevent cold start up rattling...they would probably be one of the best lifters on the market for a T/C application. Like I said...the quality of this lifter is very impressive.
Ray
Quote from: Herko on July 08, 2015, 04:17:37 AM
Quote
...These were also experimented with by Joe Mondello, Ron Head (HTT POORBOY)...
It's been some years ago, but Ron sent me one if not two builds to tune that had the LS-1 Morel's.
For the cams being used, the valve train noise was commensurately quiet .
A slot was milled in the lifter body to better align the oil passages of the case and the lifter.
Not long thereafter, Bob Wood intro'd his Morel for Harley applications and were subsequently used.
Didn't know that. We ended up running Bob Woods lifters in Bonneville. When I first got to the flats and heard the engine for the first time I noticed top end clatter right away and took the rocker covers off and saw very little oil so I called Bob. He stated that was normal but there is enough oil to lube the top end and that oil in the rocker boxes is not there for cooling. So I ended up finding that the builder of the engine didn't have enough clearance around the retainers. After cleaning the area up, initial start up the engine was quiet and remained that way. Upon disassembly after returning home there was no abnormal wear in the rocker area so the lifters worked out well.
50,000 miles on my wood lifters . The two diff engines that they have been installed in,turned 6700-7000rpms on numerous passes . Personally I wood not run anything else at this point.
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 08, 2015, 07:44:14 AM
50,000 miles on my wood lifters . The two diff engines that they have been installed in,turned 6700-7000rpms on numerous passes . Personally I wood not run anything else at this point.
Just curious, what about them makes them different?
Thanks,
Rick
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 08, 2015, 07:44:14 AM
50,000 miles on my wood lifters . The two diff engines that they have been installed in,turned 6700-7000rpms on numerous passes . Personally I wood not run anything else at this point.
What cams?
Quote from: Eglider05 on July 08, 2015, 09:12:33 AM
Just curious, what about them makes them different?
As far as the initial start up noise is concerned, an excerpt from the BW lifter instructions:
You will notice a longer time required to fill lifter body cavity.
Slight lifter noise is normal until engine warms up. This increased
fill time rate gives you performance like a solid lifter but with
"ANTI-PUMP UP" hydraulic operation.
You can find other characteristics here:
http://www.woodcarbs.com/dirlifters.htm (http://www.woodcarbs.com/dirlifters.htm)
Quote from: Eglider05 on July 08, 2015, 09:12:33 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 08, 2015, 07:44:14 AM
50,000 miles on my wood lifters . The two diff engines that they have been installed in,turned 6700-7000rpms on numerous passes . Personally I wood not run anything else at this point.
Just curious, what about them makes them different?
Thanks,
Rick
I honestly don't know .
On my old motor they would bleed off a little if I let it sit a week without starting it .
Within a couple min they would be quiet . Once they are pumped up they don't bleed off.
Was using 662-2 and Se 266 cams
On my new motor they never bleed off for some reason .same 266 cams .( the same cams that was in my 120 when the stock SE/Jim's lifters failed at 15,000 miles ).
Since rays little deal I have had several guys contact me about lifters .
So for the record .... I use S&S reg lifters for the small cam builds .
I use woods for the big cam builds .
I stopped using travel limiters when I quit running a carb bike .
I don't use any automotive style lifters . Unless you want to call wood lifters automotive style .
I understand why Ray did what he did . But I don't recommend a re fabbed lifter or a re branded lifter ever either .
I got the bike buttoned up about an hour ago.
It went from the noisiest valve train I've had...to the "QUIETEST" valve train I've ever had!
It is amazing how quiet it is now.
https://youtu.be/CmG-bAJtUB8
Ray
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 07, 2015, 06:09:51 AM
The delphi lifter specs were even a bit tighter for aluminium, I had posted the link to their spec sheet last year, but I see the Delphi page is now gone.
The page might still be available, archived. See if you can find it at https://archive.org/
Use the "Wayback Machine" input box at the top of the page. I found some of their other documentation that way a few months back. Delphi's sites have always been difficult to use but now they're even worse, if you can believe it... Good thing they're not a web site design company; wish they would use a good one themselves.
Glad to hear Ray. Sounds almost "stock" now... :wink:
Those 640's are awesome ! Im amazed at how quiet they run and the performance they give !
Cant wait to see the next Chapter of this story Ray.. you got us on the edge of our seats.. What will it make this time? :fish:
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
I got the bike buttoned up about an hour ago.
It went from the noisiest valve train I've had...to the "QUIETEST" valve train I've ever had!
It is amazing how quiet it is now.
https://youtu.be/CmG-bAJtUB8
Ray
:up: How was the test drive?
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
I got the bike buttoned up about an hour ago.
It went from the noisiest valve train I've had...to the "QUIETEST" valve train I've ever had!
It is amazing how quiet it is now.
https://youtu.be/CmG-bAJtUB8
Ray
So was it the lifters or the cam profile that did the trick?
Bob
Gordon...no test ride...it's been raining here all day long. :cry:
Bob...I know what the old CR651 cams sounded like with S&S Premium lifters w/limiters. I ran that combo before.
Scott...I'm making no predictions. It sounds like a stock 103 now...so who knows what it will do. :nix:
Josh & Dan...thanks! :up:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Bob...I know what the old CR651 cams sounded like with S&S Premium lifters w/limiters. I ran that combo before.
Ray
Not sure yet what cured the noise. :scratch: Do you feel it was the CR651 cam profile or the lifter change that made your build quiet as stock?
Bob
QuoteIt sounds like a stock 103 now...
Yeah, just like my 103 with 48Hs.
My ass it does.
:hyst:
Mark
Bob...there is no doubt in my mind that the lifters were the main contributor to all the valve train noise I was getting.
The CR651's have fast ramps and they do make a little noise...but nothing too bad that I couldn't stand them...even for a person like me that can't stand any excessive valve train noise.
The combination of the S&S 640's and their Premium lifters w/limiters has made the valve train basically un-noticeable.
Even with a stethoscope and revving the bike to 4K and holding it there...all that can be heard is a very very faint scrolling sound...no ticking at all...simply amazing. This is by far the quietest valve train I've ever had in a Harley in my whole life.
Randy (groundhog143) just stopped by a little bit ago and I had him listen to it with the stethoscope too. He couldn't believe that there was no valve train noise. He said there must be some kind of magic going on. :hyst:
Ray
Must be that LiquidMoly 10w60.......
Glad it all worked out Ray!
It actually has some fresh 10w60 Liqui Moly in it right now. :wink:
Ray
Ray , what did you end up with for static compression ?
Nice-
Sounds just like my 126", with S&S valvetrain and Liquimoly-
:up:
I can tell everybody right now Ray is one happy gear head the bike sounds the best it ever has. I finally preached to him enough about S&S Proven Performance now its time for some seat time :koolaid:
My Wood lifters and S&S 640's were as quiet as stock when warned up! We'll see how the Andrews 64G's do....quicker ramps
Sounds good Ray I think you nailed it ....... :wink:
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 08, 2015, 02:22:38 PM
Ray , what did you end up with for static compression ?
I'll check it tomorrow Josh.
Gordon wants to know also.
Thanks Paul & Mike! :up:
...needless to say I'm elated on how it sounds now.
Ray
Thanks Ray ! Just watched your video , sounds awesome :chop: I'm glad you got everything figured out , time for Jim to work his magic :up:
Well done Ray
I'm sure it is very satisfying
:beer:
Josh...at least the tune is close with these new heads and bigger injectors. It fires right up instantly and idles perfect...even with the 640's in it.
If the roads dry up tonight from all the rain we got today...I'll be getting it out tomorrow for a ride. I can't wait to see how it feels.
It had been sitting for 4-5 hours now since I last started it and I just went out to the barn and hit the start button on a cold engine. It fired up instantly and the valve train was quiet as a church mouse. :SM:
I think Jim will like this valve train.
Ray
Sweet ! My bike with the 640's starts like that as well . Feels like one revolution and it fires off ! Im super excited to see how those 640's with some squeeze runs !
Hey Ray, I'm glad it's working now. Just for giggles, check out how close the specs are with Tman's 662-3 (except for lift). :potstir: :fish:
'Glad you got the noise sorted...
I am curious as to what Barnett said about the deformed washers on the lockout??
Ray, which 10-60 Liqui Moly oil? This one:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPL918E/ref=dra_a_rv_mr_hn_it_P1200_1000?&tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=03ac0d26b6649e4c218fe39ed25e3f7d_S (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPL918E/ref=dra_a_rv_mr_hn_it_P1200_1000?&tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=03ac0d26b6649e4c218fe39ed25e3f7d_S)
or this one? The difference in cost seems significant.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003JI3O6W/ref=dra_a_rv_mr_hn_it_P1200_1000?tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=03ac0d26b6649e4c218fe39ed25e3f7d_S (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003JI3O6W/ref=dra_a_rv_mr_hn_it_P1200_1000?tag=dradisplay-20&ascsubtag=03ac0d26b6649e4c218fe39ed25e3f7d_S)
The latter one is the only one custom designed from the oil manufacturer for a motorcycle but either could work in the right application I suppose. I just wanted to be clear which 10-60 oil you and Paul Morris were recommending. I'm ready to buy some myself, just wanted to be clear. Thank you.
-A-
I still can't get over how quiet the 124 Hi-Po valvetrain is it's almost as quiet as my 143 :potstir:
I've been using the 1st one Andy.
Ray
Me 2-
Quote from: CowboyTutt on July 08, 2015, 09:46:43 PM
Ray, which 10-60 Liqui Moly oil? This one:
I just wanted to be clear which 10-60 oil you and Paul Morris were recommending. I'm ready to buy some myself, just wanted to be clear. Thank you.
-A-
They Use the one that has the Blackstone testing reports done.... Page 11 and 23 here on the LiquiMolyThread: Page here shows Both compared reports on page 23...
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,75005.550.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,75005.550.html)
signed....BUBBIE
Thanks Bubbie! Read both those pages now. -A-
the roads finally dried up and I put 'er in the wind for a test ride.
I rode it 60 miles and the valve train stayed quiet. My oil temp was 205* when I pulled it back into the barn.
The 640's don't seem to hit quit as hard as the CR651's do just off open throttle...but they do seem to pull very strong and they feel very similar to the 651's after 2500 rpm's...and best of all they are very quiet. I think I can live with that. I came home long enough to had a glass of ice tea...and it's back out for another test ride.
I'll see if I can bang it off the rev limiter a time or two on this ride.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 09, 2015, 12:42:55 PM
the roads finally dried up and I put 'er in the wind for a test ride.
I rode it 60 miles and the valve train stayed quiet. My oil temp was 205* when I pulled it back into the barn.
The 640's don't seem to hit quit as hard as the CR651's do just off open throttle...but they do seem to pull very strong and they feel very similar to the 651's after 2500 rpm's...and best of all they are very quiet. I think I can live with that. I came home long enough to had a glass of ice tea...and it's back out for another test ride.
I'll see if I can bang it off the rev limiter a time or two on this ride.
Ray
Make it a LONG ISLAND ice tea to settled them nervous before pointing it at the sky!! :bike:
2nd ride impressions were good. I didn't get it to the rev limiter...but I did see a few shifts at over 5K a few times. It's a handful up there even without a proper tune put to it yet. My oil temp was the same as the 1st ride @ 205* when I pulled it back into the barn. I had put all 6 green springs in the Barnett lock up the other day and to tell you the truth I couldn't feel any clutch slippage. There probably was some...but I sure couldn't feel any.
I let it cool down a little after I got it home and I pulled the plugs to check them. The front plug looked to be burning perfect...but the back plug was darker and I believe the rear cylinder will need to be address when Jim gets it back.
All and all I'd have to say it's got some gitty up and go in it. It's more fun than one man should be allowed to have. :embarrassed:
Ray
I know the 640's dont have the same seat of the pants pizazz as say the 662-2 or your 651's but they are deceptively quick and the valvetrain is sooo quiet ! I cant wait to see what it does tuned :chop:
Quote from: No Cents on July 09, 2015, 12:42:55 PM
the roads finally dried up and I put 'er in the wind for a test ride.
I rode it 60 miles and the valve train stayed quiet. My oil temp was 205* when I pulled it back into the barn.
The 640's don't seem to hit quit as hard as the CR651's do just off open throttle...but they do seem to pull very strong and they feel very similar to the 651's after 2500 rpm's...and best of all they are very quiet. I think I can live with that. I came home long enough to had a glass of ice tea...and it's back out for another test ride.
I'll see if I can bang it off the rev limiter a time or two on this ride.
Ray
There's no telling where your cam timing fell with the large roller and lack of lift due to the oiling issue. Being that your torque was off the hook maybe you stumbled upon a new cam design. If it can be figured out :nix:
Quote from: No Cents on July 09, 2015, 03:44:18 PM
It's more fun than one man should be allowed to have.
I'm sure it's right up there anyway. Did you have your clothes on or off for that comparison? :)
two rides and I'm already missing the CR651's...that thumpin nasty lope they had...is gone. :emsad:
The 651's always had that nasty lope to them when you were puttin it thru town and they felt like they were loaded and ready to come on with just the slightest bit of throttle.
These 640's have that linear feel to them that you told me about Josh. I guess it will just take some time getting use to them. The 640's have a little later intake closing @ 60* with more overlap @ 50...which I would of thought it would of made them a little more radical sounding than they are. They actually seem very tame. They are no where near as aggressive sounding and radical as the 651's...which has less overlap @ 48 and a 2* earlier intake closing @ 58*.
I guess it has a lot to do with the difference in their ramp design.
I was told that these two cams were very close to each other. They might be on paper...but I'll have to see the results on that one.
They definitely have two totally different personalities.
Ray
Take the cam with you and do some back to back. Stick with the one you want. The 640 smooth power can be deceiving.
Jason...I wish I could do that...but that's not an option for me.
It's drop the bike off at Jim's and pick it up usually the next week.
I'm not there to be able to do any wrenching and any such kind of testing.
I certainly know Jim doesn't want to pull the top end of my motor apart and pull the exhaust to change the cams for such a test.
I tried to talk him into moving next door...but he is dug in like a tick in Mattoon and I don't think he budging. :hyst:
I'll see how these 640's do. They may just surprise me. For them supposedly being a performance cam...they sure seem tame compared to the different cams I've ran in the past. Maybe that's not a bad thing. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 08, 2015, 02:22:38 PM
Ray , what did you end up with for static compression ?
I'll check it tomorrow Josh.
Gordon wants to know also.
Ray
Any news?
I never got around to it today.
I put it in the wind while I had the chance.
It's suppose to rain again tomorrow...so I'll more than likely do it then.
Ray
Heck,
I hope my 95 will be that quiet when we get done with it, that sounds great.
Mark
I looked at rough guesstimate had the .750 roller worked out and ended up with 5* more duration on the intake/exhaust. Overlap would have fallen around 53* and 11:5 to 1 would have been the appropriate comp. I couldn't get a good TDC lift Idea so I'm guessing .250"-.260". The .750 roller setup would have made less torque than the .690 roller as well. Then the case of the "spongy" lifter gets dropped in there and It looks like we need an Alan Turing type to figure it out from here!
Gordon...all's I know is the bike seems to be a lot happier than before. It seems to be a lot smoother...and definitely quieter.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 10, 2015, 05:09:17 AM
Gordon...all's I know is the bike seems to be a lot happier than before. It seems to be a lot smoother...and definitely quieter.
Ray
It justs needs some tuning to get that lope back Ray. Your exhaust port was highly modified so it will still have that "nasty" sound your missing as well.
I've always been surprised and delighted that the 640 cams are so seemingly tame!! Even with my LOW compression of 10.8/1, they act like a big electric motor, very deceiving in how quickly they ramp up the power past 2500rpm. In my 01 Dyna I can idle down to 1400rpm in 5th, put thru the local villages and gently accelerate back up to highway speeds. Or I can launch at 2800/3000rpm and make it a very interesting ride to the speed limit or more (usually a lot more). I love the rush in 3rd and 4th gears, even with 2.88/1 overall gearing, topping out at 125mph in 4th, and it will pull to 6100rpm in 5th, a little over 150 mph. With over 60K on the engine, its till quiet, noticeably so at 2500-3000rpm. That's my stock T124 crate motor, 126.2hp/133.9t. I can't wait to see the results of the 640's in your meticulously "worked" motor. I can only imagine the rush you get and the sense of true accomplishment, you gotta be smilin' wide here. Buffalo
Gordon and Josh and Eric.
You ask and you shall receive.
This is the ccp's with the 640's.
front cylinder
[attach=0]
rear cylinder
[attach=1]
pretty damn close I would say.
Ray
No would you do the test without touching the t /blade. Just spin it until the needle stops climbing.. :wink:
sorry Steve...but I've already got it buttoned back up and I'm getting ready to load it on the trailer to head to Jim's in the morning for the re-tune.
What difference do you thing I would see if I did that?
I'm just happy to see both cylinders turn out as close as they did to each other.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 10, 2015, 09:38:55 AM
sorry Steve...but I've already got it buttoned back up and I'm getting ready to load it on the trailer to head to Jim's in the morning for the re-tune.
What difference do you thing I would see if I did that?
I'm just happy to see both cylinders turn out as close as they did to each other.
Ray
In reality there would be no difference. It would just take a lot longer to get to max. I've tried it a few times over my life, different engines.
Ron
Ray....did you ever post who did your heads this time?
...the gentleman's name is Fred Hether.
his contact # is:
(770)572-9098
Ray
I took the bike back to Jim's today for the re-tune.
When I got home from the trip from Jim's and I checked the mailbox I found the care package that Chance @ Barnett sent me.
I don't know if he or any of his employee's read the forum here...but "thank you" if you's do!
The weights for the lock up are pretty heavy...I was shock how heavy they are. I'm going to have to weigh them to compare them with the stockers that came in the lock up when I get the bike back home.
If only it was here a day sooner. :doh: I did put all six of the green springs in for this go around. I guess we will see how well the clutch does this time.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray, have you considered having two sets of springs dialed in? One set for the dyno, brutally stiff that will not allow any slip under any conditions. And another set for riding the bike around, somewhat softer springs that allow you to properly launch that heavy bike without lifting the wheel or spinning. This what some of the guys with quick bikes do for the dyno.
that was the intention Ed. I wanted to get it to hook up on the dyno with as little slippage as possible to see where it landed.
On the street I have been running 3 green and three of the medium gold springs. It works well on the street...but didn't on the dyno. It didn't hook up until 4200 rpm's last week when Jim tuned it.
I'm sure there will be slippage again even with all 6 green springs on the dyno.
The bike just feels like it has more power than it has ever had before.
Ray
I wonder how that screamin eagle comp is going to hold up :wink:
I would imagine you will be eating up the tires also :fish:
...I should knock on wood before I say this Nick...but SE comp #4 has not made a peep yet.
I know it's hard to believe...but it's true.
Now next month...I'll probably have to change it now that I said that. :doh:
Ray
Did you ever finish the steering stabilizer I think you are going to need it pretty quick. I also have a extra wheelie bar from my drag bike I bought I might need to box it up and send it your way. I can just see it now you would be the only guy on the street with one.
Add
Tell Jim to hurry up I can't take it any longer we need to see some 124 dyno sheet porn
yep...it turned out nice and works great.
[attach=0]
Ray
Does it affect your left turn radius at all?
And what color do you want your wheelie bar?
no...I have full turning radius both directions...lock to lock.
wheelie bar??? ...that takes all the fun out of it. :hyst:
Ray
Nice steering stabilizer Ray
hey Fred...nice to see you posting! :up:
thanks for everything!
JFYI info guys...Fred is the man that did the heads and throttle body for me in my current combo.
Ray
Hello Fred good to see you posting
Thank you
I think Freds avatar is sexy would those heads be the ones we are all drooling over ?
Hello Fred, welcome to HTT :up:
Thanks. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
There goes the neighborhood :hyst: Cant wait to see how your and Rays project finishes out.
Sounds like you're going to need to move to that 180 rear tire sooner rather than later Ray. I talked to Paul at Native Customs recently. He made up a bunch of those fenders like I'm running. No issues with inventory now.
Zach
:agree: a different fender with a wider rear tire might just be a good winter project for me...for sure.
Ray
If you decide to go the Native Customs route you will be impressed with the quality and pure strength of these fenders. Your painter will be impressed as well, at least mine was.
Zach
I just went to his web site and sent him an e-mail telling him what I'm looking for.
I basically just want a wider fender with the side panels in the same stock length. I want to re-used my fascia light so it can be incorporated into the fender along with keeping my stock tail light assembly in the same place. Nothing fancy...just a wider fender so I can get a 180 under there. A little stealth involved at first glance...I must say. :wink:
I'll see what he has to say.
Ray
Ray, won't an ebay take-off from an 09 up SG work? :scratch: You won't have to bring it up from a raw fender. Just sand and paint. :nix:
I've been told no they won't work.
I read somewhere where a 2007 CVO rear fender would work...but I don't remember what size tire they said would fit under it.
My 160/60 Pirelli tire has a nice wide contact patch...but I bet a 180 would put down a little wider one.
Ray
Likely you already have seen these kits. https://fatbaggers.com/motorcycle-parts/wide-tire-kits
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2015, 06:20:34 PM
I've been told no they won't work.
I read somewhere where a 2007 CVO rear fender would work...but I don't remember what size tire they said would fit under it.
My 160/60 Pirelli tire has a nice wide contact patch...but I bet a 180 would put down a little wider one.
Ray
Jim has the part number for the fender you need.
thanks Daren! :up:
Ray
Here's my NCB fender on my 05 with a 180.
Rick
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2015, 05:50:49 PM
I just went to his web site and sent him an e-mail telling him what I'm looking for.
I basically just want a wider fender with the side panels in the same stock length. I want to re-used my fascia light so it can be incorporated into the fender along with keeping my stock tail light assembly in the same place. Nothing fancy...just a wider fender so I can get a 180 under there. A little stealth involved at first glance...I must say. :wink:
I'll see what he has to say.
Ray
you can probably get the Native fender without the side fillers but I don't think your stick fascia is going to work. The NCB fender is wider (that's why you need it) and the fascia likely won't have the width between the fillers. Not sure about options to use your stock taillight assy. Paul will get back to you. He's a busy guy and a one man operation, but will treat you right. No BS.
Zach
Glad to see that you finally tried the 640's. Now you might have a chance to catch me. :potstir: :hyst: :hyst: If you give me a half mile head start. Nice work.
Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2015, 06:20:34 PM
I've been told no they won't work.
I read somewhere where a 2007 CVO rear fender would work...but I don't remember what size tire they said would fit under it.
My 160/60 Pirelli tire has a nice wide contact patch...but I bet a 180 would put down a little wider one.
Ray
I have a 2007 CVO road king fender on my 2004 EG, and have a 180 tire under it, no problem. They came with a 170 from the factory.
I have an extra fender in the shop, but you can still buy them from a dealer I believe.
Quote from: ndmp40 on July 13, 2015, 09:22:50 AM
I have a 2007 CVO road king fender on my 2004 EG, and have a 180 tire under it, no problem. They came with a 170 from the factory.
I have an extra fender in the shop, but you can still buy them from a dealer I believe.
So in 2007 the CVO touring bikes came with wider fenders and 170 rear tire?
I learn something everyday and have never noticed the bigger tire sizes on CVOs.
Thanks for the info,
Bob
It's 2007-2008 CVO roadkings that have the wide tire .
I have a 2008 CVO roadking primered fender for this winters project. It is cheaper than painted.
( the 2008 has a 180 stock I believe) Black Diamond has a 180 on his 2008 CVO R/K
The shinko stealth D .150/ 16 is working pretty good though .
It's the same compound as the skinko 180/17 hook up drag radial, and my spoke wheel is a lot lighter than the 2009 night train wheel I have for the 180 conversion .
What I really would like to have is a carbon fiber wheel from Brock's performance.
I just got off the phone wirh Jeff . it was a 170/60/17 on the 2008 Cvo roadking also .
2007 CVO Road King rear fender from the MoCo can still be purchased.
It lists for $266.20 primed.
Part # is 60275-07
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2015, 11:36:10 AM
2007 CVO Road King rear fender from the MoCo can still be purchased.
It lists for $266.20 primed.
Part # is 60275-07
Ray
You will need the fillers also. Or fab your own, or adapt someone else's product to it.
I've seen them on ebay fairly often.
That's a smoking deal considering you want to keep it as stock appearing as possible.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on July 13, 2015, 11:36:10 AM
2007 CVO Road King rear fender from the MoCo can still be purchased.
It lists for $266.20 primed.
Part # is 60275-07
Ray
You will need to do a little work to it if you want to keep your stock light. The 07-08 RK CVO fender has holes for the tombstone style light.
Rick
Quote from: Eglider05 on July 14, 2015, 09:26:38 AM
You will need to do a little work to it if you want to keep your stock light. The 07-08 RK CVO fender has holes for the tombstone style light.
Rick
Any decent body guy can fill it in. I used a stock light on mine after patching and metal finishing. Not a big deal.
Any word on what the 640's did?
Quote from: ndmp40 on July 14, 2015, 04:52:02 PM
Quote from: Eglider05 on July 14, 2015, 09:26:38 AM
You will need to do a little work to it if you want to keep your stock light. The 07-08 RK CVO fender has holes for the tombstone style light.
Rick
Any decent body guy can fill it in. I used a stock light on mine after patching and metal finishing. Not a big deal.
Yep, lots of ways to skin that cat. I saw a post on another forum where a guy split an 09 fender, added a filler to get the width needed. It came out looking pretty darn nice. A fair amount of work but a very cheap way to go if you have the talent to do it. In fact I have an 09 project fender I was going to do this with but decided to go a different route with the NCB fender.
Rick
Even easier to scallop the sides of the later fender to fit the width of the older frame, less work and works out great the 180 fits with lots of room.
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n572/johnca58/exhtipIII-1.jpg) (http://s1140.photobucket.com/user/johnca58/media/exhtipIII-1.jpg.html)
Quote from: JohnCA58 on July 15, 2015, 12:52:32 PM
Even easier to scallop the sides of the later fender to fit the width of the older frame, less work and works out great the 180 fits with lots of room.
Man it sucks to getting old. With all of the back and forth PM's between us when I was doing mine I completely forgot about the way you did yours. It's actually a much better way IMHO. My situation at the time was I was working so much OT I said screw it and took the easy way out ($$).
Rick
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 15, 2015, 07:17:55 AM
Any word on what the 640's did?
It ended up losing 2hp and 3tq with the S&S 640's vs the old CR651's.
[attach=0]
Red is the CR651's
Blue is the S&S 640's
Ray
:up: :up: That's peanuts and could be the conditions of the day. It's one smokin 124. Hopefully you're happy and you now have the benefit of a more quiet valve train and less valve lift stress. I'd say the recent head and TB work was a success too. Time to put some miles on now Ray. Got any vacation days coming? :teeth:
I can live with it KD. It actually had the thicker 10w60 Liqui Moly oil in it this time at Jim's vs the VR1 50wt when it was tuned the trip before. That might of made a hp or two difference with the thicker oil. :nix: I do know the valve train was quieter this time when I dropped it off at Jim's...so that made me a lot happier. Beings I have the map of the CR651's being tuned with this new head and t/body combo...I might slip the CR651's back in at the end of the riding season to see if the valve train stays as quiet as it is now.
My next vacation week is the 1st full week of August. I always take that week so if the chance arises to go to Sturgis...I have it saved.
I'm not going again this year...so I hope to just load the bags up with a few pairs of jeans and t-shirts...and put it in the wind for 4- 5 days. No super slabs...just all back roads seeing small town USA.
Ray
Proves that your exhaust is dominating the curve and the 640 isn't soft on the bottom. Thanks for posting. Bad ass bike.
Quote from: kd on July 16, 2015, 05:33:14 PM
:up: :up: That's peanuts and could be the conditions of the day. It's one smokin 124. Hopefully you're happy and you now have the benefit of a more quiet valve train and less valve lift stress. I'd say the recent head and TB work was a success too. Time to put some miles on now Ray. Got any vacation days coming? :teeth:
Damn straight-
Most guys would die for a legit, reliable 150 plus square, and you have even more.
This is perfect for a street killer, max bagger street build and is probably faster than 95% of any of the Harleys anywhere in the USA. NO Harley should be able to touch you in your town on the street ...(well maybe that 143.. Lol...).
This might be the time you really decide what kind of bike you want this to be....as it's not yet fast enough for a bagger class track winner (mid 10's or better And I'm guessing they are making close to 200 hp). Or course, the winning bagger bikes are dedicated RACE bikes, brought to the track on a trailer, then raced, then back to the shop for some wrenching.
The street forces you to compromise- with reliability, fuel, comfort, and other issues and I see your bike as a great hot street bagger build, that can go anywhere, anytime, and is fast as hell and smooth as silk-
thanks Jason and Paul. :up:
The pipe is definitely dictating the curve...and changes will have to be made in that area if the quest for more power is pursued.
I'm going after it Saturday and I will ride it like it is for the rest of the season.
I've missed a good part of riding time already this year.
It's definitely not in the same class as the top competitors in the bagger class...that's for sure.
I'll take a step back and enjoy it how it is for awhile before concentrating on what I'll need to do to try to take it to the next level to be on the same playing field with those guys.
Ray
What specs did you give Burns on the design of your pipe as far as rpm parameters is concerned?
Looks good. How'd the clutch do this go around?
Chad...I don't know this go around. I haven't talked to Jim about it.
Jay here is what I went off of. I told them I want power between 3K to 6500 rpm's.
[attach=0]
Ray
I'm sure that sucker grabbed immediately with those springs in it.
As I said on the first go round, the initial slipping clutch on the other pulls IMO didn't have a bearing on the final max numbers.
Once that sucker locks up, even at 4,500, it's locked up for good, the motor pulls to redline and from my experience, the final power numbers are similar. Lower, street cruising numbers from 3-4 grand will probably be less but it can actually be a benefit- Keeping your rear wheel planted and your front wheel on the ground. Too much torque is not your friend downstairs...
I may be mistaken but I thought the springs arrived after the bike went to the dyno?
Ray can you lay your old head setup with the 662-2's and the burns pipe sheet with the new ones?
You got the right idea Ray, go out and enjoy what is left of the riding season on the back roads of America :up: :up:
great power and quiet to boot.
Quote from: gordonr on July 16, 2015, 06:36:59 PM
Ray can you lay your old head setup with the 662-2's and the burns pipe sheet with the new ones?
pretty much so Gordon.
The curves are very similar with every dyno sheet I have with my Burns pipe...except for the latest graphs with the end cap in it where the tq came in a little sooner...but they are almost identical curves thru 4,000 rpm's to the end of the pulls. My old Zilla was a different curve all together.
[attach=0]
Blue is the Zilla with the 662-2 cams
Red is the Burns pipe with the 662-2 cams
This was before I made the end cap for the Burns.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 16, 2015, 06:19:20 PM
Chad...I don't know this go around. I haven't talked to Jim about it.
Jay here is what I went off of. I told them I want power between 3K to 6500 rpm's.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ask Vince what the pipe sizes and steps would be for a 4500 to 6500 operating range and compare. As you know, when you want it all there are no short cuts.
Jay...I've got this option for a pipe to make if I want to make all the power up there in the higher rpm's.
[attach=0]
Ray
Nice quiet engine this time Ray .
The 640 is a lot tamer than the -2 and the 651 at cruise and parking lot speeds .I think you are gonna like it in that respect .
Looking forward to you next exhaust phase if/ when you decide to pull it on out it Rpm's .
This engine has a lot more hp in it , with a pipe that will let it pull some more rpms .
Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .
Quote from: No Cents on July 16, 2015, 07:04:02 PM
[attach=0]
Ray,
What the heck happened to the power with the Zilla @4500 rpms? Looks like a timing or fuel change?
Bob
I think the 640 are showing very nice results, the differenc in humidity could easily be 2 hp/3t on any given day! It is still a beast, but a happier beast. Now go out and enjoy tearing off the rear tire(s) hehe.
You have definitely earned the right to enjoy the new found quiet power (relatively speaking).
Years ago I built a 5" extension on my Propipe, mainly to get the outlet from under the saddlebag. God it echoed!! Inside that extension I made a 3/4" ring type baffle like the one in the propipe. I was really surprised to see it add 2.5 hp, and 2t over a stock baffle all the way thru the rpm, while reducing noise by 5 decibels at wot.
It also made it very mellow at cruise. I left it that way for the last 6 yrs. I was wondering in my mind what an extension would or wouldn't do on your system, other than carry the sound further back. Buffalo
This is the -2 and 651's with old heads , 651 and 640 with new heads all on one graph .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/90AD6434-94E3-4975-A8AF-7B025FAF7FEC.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/90AD6434-94E3-4975-A8AF-7B025FAF7FEC.jpg.html)
Fix the clutch , go kick but at the track.
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 16, 2015, 07:42:09 PM
Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .
Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.
Quote from: pwmorris on July 16, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 16, 2015, 07:42:09 PM
Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .
Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.
Your welcome
We all still like to stalk the jap bikes on the street .
David's bike and even mine don't see as much street riding, as we both have another bagger for the street now . Limited street is still street .
I have ran every race on the circuit this season ... We do not race "every week"
but you are correct on one point your eluding to ..I finish runner up to David every event .
Last race in bowling green i broke the PTO belt on the blower right before eliminations. I still finished runner up ,without the blower .
Quote from: FLTRI on July 16, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 16, 2015, 07:04:02 PM
[attach=0]
Ray,
What the heck happened to the power with the Zilla @4500 rpms? Looks like a timing or fuel change?
Bob
I'm not sure Bob :nix: but that dip at 4500 rpm's was the reason why I made my Burns pipe.
It got rid of that dip...but I think I have now found the limitations of my Burns pipe.
I'm going to make another 2n1 pipe out of mild steel this time using larger OD tubing just to see what it will do. I've got some ideas...so I'll see where it goes next time.
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 17, 2015, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: pwmorris on July 16, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 16, 2015, 07:42:09 PM
Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .
Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.
Your welcome
We all still like to stalk the "metric bike"s on the street .
David's bike and even mine don't see as much street riding, as we both have another bagger for the street now . Limited street is still street .
I have ran every race on the circuit this season ... We do not race "every week"
but you are correct on one point your eluding to ..I finish runner up to David every event .
Last race in bowling green i broke the PTO belt on the blower right before eliminations. I still finished runner up ,without the blower .
That was my point- these are second or third bikes that MAY get ridden occasionally on the street and NOT daily driver baggers. Totally different than Rays bike which is his daily driver running pump gas. Like I said, apples to oranges.
No different than the old SP bikes which could be ridden on the street, but never were for many different reasons-including running race gas... Why beat on parts on a bike that is designed to go down the track?
BTW, Dennicks bagger bike is absolutely bad ass- he completely dominates that class, many times beating guys by more than a second. If I owned that bike, no way I would screw around with it on the street, and risk hurting it...
After being to Sturgis I don't see that as a venue for a bike like Rays, no offense, it is just too damn hot and the traffic is brutal. Unless you park away and walk.
I agree, big difference between a daily riding bike and a street legal track bike. IMO my little 110" EG is perfect for the street, 126 HP ans 127 TRQ making 118 TRQ at 2K. I'll ride that bike across country tomorrow if I felt the urge and not have a care in the world.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 17, 2015, 08:25:22 AM
After being to Sturgis I don't see that as a venue for a bike like Rays, no offense, it is just too damn hot and the traffic is brutal. Unless you park away and walk.
Don't ride the main streets coming into town. Get off and run side streets.
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2015, 03:39:16 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on July 16, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 16, 2015, 07:04:02 PM
[attach=0]
Ray,
What the heck happened to the power with the Zilla @4500 rpms? Looks like a timing or fuel change?
Bob
I'm not sure Bob :nix: but that dip at 4500 rpm's was the reason why I made my Burns pipe.
It got rid of that dip...but I think I have now found the limitations of my Burns pipe.
I'm going to make another 2n1 pipe out of mild steel this time using larger OD tubing just to see what it will do. I've got some ideas...so I'll see where it goes next time.
Ray
FWIW, this is the first time I've seen a pipe that has a "switch" type flow change right in the sweet spot of power.
The Zilla's I've tuned have never shown this anomoly.
I've seen timing changes, sometimes due to knock retard, cause this behavior. I've seen VE changes do this.
Just not sure how the aerodynamics of a pipe can change so rapidly.
That said, I learn something every day!
Bob
Bob...you would have to talk to Jim as to why the Zilla did what it did. I can't answer it myself.
Don...I'm an old veteran Sturgis Bike Week goer. I've been there over a dozen times in my life. I love the country side out there.
You learn early on to stay away from downtown Sturgis in the stop and go traffic in the heat of the day. If I do go into down town Sturgis...it's early in the morning so I'm able to slide out of there before it becomes elbow to elbow everywhere you turn.
I mostly do the scenic out of town roads and I enjoy seeing the beautiful sights of the country side more than the wall to wall people in town.
Ray
added later:
the hottest I've seen the oil temperature on this 124" engine is 214*...cooler than most T/C engines I've checked.
So I am not afraid to hop on it and go either.
Of course, I agree. Downtown mid-day is not a place for high compression expensive air cooled machinery.
Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes? :nix:
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on July 17, 2015, 09:34:39 AM
Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes? :nix:
Bob
2 different pipes run 3 months apart.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 17, 2015, 09:09:46 AM
Of course, I agree. Downtown mid-day is not a place for high compression expensive air cooled machinery.
No doubt. Scuffed a set of Pistons in a high compression 117 there one hot afternoon.
Quote from: No Cents on July 16, 2015, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: gordonr on July 16, 2015, 06:36:59 PM
Ray can you lay your old head setup with the 662-2's and the burns pipe sheet with the new ones?
pretty much so Gordon.
The curves are very similar with every dyno sheet I have with my Burns pipe...except for the latest graphs with the end cap in it where the tq came in a little sooner...but they are almost identical curves thru 4,000 rpm's to the end of the pulls. My old Zilla was a different curve all together.
[attach=0]
Now seeing these curves proves out the idea that one pipe, doesn't fit the bill on all builds configs. Specific built pipes really mean specific for the build. Another chapter to look forward to Ray?
Blue is the Zilla with the 662-2 cams
Red is the Burns pipe with the 662-2 cams
This was before I made the end cap for the Burns.
Ray
Quote from: FLTRI on July 17, 2015, 09:34:39 AM
Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes? :nix:
Bob
nope Bob...both runs were from my same bike a few months apart.
Both dyno runs it had the Tman 662-2 cams in it...and the "only" difference in the bike between the two runs was the Burns pipe change from the Zilla.
I agree Gordon!
The pipe plays a major role in how the power is delivered. This is a perfect example of it.
Ray
I made the trip to Mattoon, Illinois today and picked the bike up at Jim's.
I took it off the trailer and took it out for a little ride to get my first impressions. It was hot outside (94*) and I will note the bike did have a nice quiet valve train. To me the 640's felt a lot softer off the bottom when comparing them to the CR651's...and it feels no were near as close to having that same angry feeling that the 651's gave it. If you spool it up to between 3500- 4000 rpm's the 640's seem to come to life...but below that I can honestly say I don't care for them so much when comparing them to the more angrier cams I've ran in the past. I guess the best way to describe them is they are very tame down low with a dull feeling.
We'll see how my next ride goes...but I don't think I'll be able to live with them very long. I like the feeling of my bike being ready to gitty up and go at the slightest touch of the throttle...and so far I'm just not feeling that with the 640's.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 17, 2015, 02:52:28 PM
Quote from: FLTRI on July 17, 2015, 09:34:39 AM
Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes? :nix:
Bob
nope Bob...both runs were from my same bike a few months apart.
Both dyno runs it had the Tman 662-2 cams in it...and the "only" difference in the bike between the two runs was the Burns pipe change from the Zilla...
Ray
My question is there are 2 runs, months apart, with same cams and same Zilla.
The latest run shows a hit to power at 4500.... Why should it be there? And why wasn't it there in the months ago run?
Bob
Different heads
Cocked,Locked,And Loaded that set up is going to be hard to beat with what you had Ray,it's not always the numbers Ray it has to feel GOOD TOO right. good luck on your Quest 😜
Fred...I think Bob is talking about the -2 cams with the old heads.
Bob...I don't have the answer.
Mike...I'll ride it a little longer with the 640's and see if I can get use to them. It's a cam with a different personality that I'm not use to running.
It definitely doesn't have that cocked and loaded feeling down low.
Ray
I hear the gears in your head turning Ray. It's saying, now that I figured out the the upper engine noise, I'll bet if I put the other cams back in, I'll have that angry feeling motor with the quiet valve train. Heck, it won't take but a couple of hours, why not.
Quote from: No Cents on July 18, 2015, 06:41:37 PM
I made the trip to Mattoon, Illinois today and picked the bike up at Jim's.
I took it off the trailer and took it out for a little ride to get my first impressions. It was hot outside (94*) and I will note the bike did have a nice quiet valve train. To me the 640's felt a lot softer off the bottom when comparing them to the CR651's...and it feels no were near as close to having that same angry feeling that the 651's gave it. If you spool it up to between 3500- 4000 rpm's the 640's seem to come to life...but below that I can honestly say I don't care for them so much when comparing them to the more angrier cams I've ran in the past. I guess the best way to describe them is they are very tame down low with a dull feeling.
We'll see how my next ride goes...but I don't think I'll be able to live with them very long. I like the feeling of my bike being ready to gitty up and go at the slightest touch of the throttle...and so far I'm just not feeling that with the 640's.
Ray
I get that same uneventful feeling out of my 117" at 10.5 with S&S 585s.
I think the cr651 are a great cam,but the I think the 640ss are good two . The riding styles of each person can be so different. Ray you will have to make the choice that make you happy. Me personally like a soft bottom end , very easy to ride in corners on the street. I bet if you were to do a real qtr mile run on the street you just ma be surprised. Most importantly do what makes you happy , it is your bike . Thank you for the opportunity Ray. In closing we never did see how it ran with cr651 with Ss lifters? It did sound mean,I definitely get you on that.
Smarty...your right on target with what I was thinking.
I already e-mailed Jim last night and asked him if my previous tune with the 651's was completed good enough to load back in if I decided to swap the cams back out. That previous tuning session with the 651's kind of ended early with all the valve train noise I had going on. He said I would know if I did decide to put them back in once I rode the bike if the tune was good enough.
I guess my expectations of the 640's was just a little higher than what I ended up with on the lower end. This just goes to show how two different sets of cams with similar cam spec's can have two totally different personalities and perform differently.
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the 640's are a bad cam...they just don't feel as strong off the bottom end as the CR651's do. In the mid rpm range the 640's seem to come on and pull just like the old 651's did.
I'm going to ride it for awhile longer before making my decision to see if I want to go thru the trouble of swapping the cams.
Ray
Ray. , if you can do a launch today. Just want to see if you have a better control of you tire spin. Thanks and ride safe.
This a street bike isn't it? I would rather have big torque downstairs because that's where the pull is at....playing around on the street is Rollon throttle and your most likely done before the end of 4th gear.....last thing I would want is a 103 next to me with a table top torque line pulling away from a 124 that doesn't build power until you go a city block......I would put the angry sound and feel cams back in myself
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2015, 05:12:28 AM
Smarty...your right on target with what I was thinking.
I already e-mailed Jim last night and asked him if my previous tune with the 651's was completed good enough to load back in if I decided to swap the cams back out. That previous tuning session with the 651's kind of ended early with all the valve train noise I had going on. He said I would know if I did decide to put them back in once I rode the bike if the tune was good enough.
I guess my expectations of the 640's was just a little higher than what I ended up with on the lower end. This just goes to show how two different sets of cams with similar cam spec's can have two totally different personalities and perform differently.
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the 640's are a bad cam...they just don't feel as strong off the bottom end as the CR651's do. In the mid rpm range the 640's seem to come on and pull just like the old 651's did.
I'm going to ride it for awhile longer before making my decision to see if I want to go thru the trouble of swapping the cams.
Ray
:wtf: Well when you get done riding today there will be a intervention at you house because you definitely need Rehab :hyst:
Quote from: groundhog143 on July 19, 2015, 05:43:41 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2015, 05:12:28 AM
Smarty...your right on target with what I was thinking.
I already e-mailed Jim last night and asked him if my previous tune with the 651's was completed good enough to load back in if I decided to swap the cams back out. That previous tuning session with the 651's kind of ended early with all the valve train noise I had going on. He said I would know if I did decide to put them back in once I rode the bike if the tune was good enough.
I guess my expectations of the 640's was just a little higher than what I ended up with on the lower end. This just goes to show how two different sets of cams with similar cam spec's can have two totally different personalities and perform differently.
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the 640's are a bad cam...they just don't feel as strong off the bottom end as the CR651's do. In the mid rpm range the 640's seem to come on and pull just like the old 651's did.
I'm going to ride it for awhile longer before making my decision to see if I want to go thru the trouble of swapping the cams.
Ray
:wtf: Well when you get done riding today there will be a intervention at you house because you definitely need Rehab :hyst:
I am on my way Randy
Ray it's gonna be ok we are hear for you
I did not like the 640's either that's why I run the 662-2 now
Quote from: No Cents on July 19, 2015, 05:12:28 AM
I guess my expectations of the 640's was just a little higher than what I ended up with on the lower end. This just goes to show how two different sets of cams with similar cam spec's can have two totally different personalities and perform differently.
Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the 640's are a bad cam...they just don't feel as strong off the bottom end as the CR651's do. In the mid rpm range the 640's seem to come on and pull just like the old 651's did.
I'm going to ride it for awhile longer before making my decision to see if I want to go thru the trouble of swapping the cams.
Ray
Ray I know exactly where you're coming from on the seat of the pants feel of the 640's. In my 124 I've ran Woods 9B's, T-Man .725's, 640's and now .675's. Woods cams had the hard hit feel to the them, and the T-Man somewhat also. Neither of the S&S did or do, however racing against my neighbor's fast Dyna the 640's kicked ass over the 9B's in direct comparison. The T-Man's I a ran were a totally separate build that I didn't get a chance to run against the same bike. For a bagger I believe an angrier cam set is at home, in order to get the heavy bike moving and pull hard after RPM drop on shifts. In a Dyna the S&S cams shine because of the useable and later TQ, less prone to wheelie. The more linear power doesn't upset the suspension as much and easier to run it through the gears as the power doesn't seem to load and unload as much the angry cams. Going back and forth from my RG and then to my Dyna the weight difference is quite evident and that's what forms my opinion on what cams to use, where and what type of power delivery I'm looking for.
Ray, I can say I know exactly what you mean.
For me i loved the feeling of the cocked and locked 117/tw68. I did grow a bit tired of it though when riding in groups.
If the CR651 was quiet would that be your ideal build?
Just curious here, but the dyno doesn't show any of that "cocked and locked", in fact both cams show very linear performance all the way up to shutoff.
I have found the 640's to be deceptively fast, they kind of sneak up, but they are actually hauling the mail quite well. They are tame until you make them "not tame" (revs). The tame part makes them easy to ride in tight conditions.
I know, I know, the 651's will be going back in for another test - 8up yes!! fwiw Buffalo
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 17, 2015, 09:09:46 AM
Of course, I agree. Downtown mid-day is not a place for high compression expensive air cooled machinery.
HEY Don,,,,,,,,,,
I would Not do that (again) to My LOW cost and Modified 09 King with your heads on it... :hyst:
Early IN and Early Out... Knowing Back ways to Boot... :SM:
Once, in that traffic (HOT n Slow) I said to the wife,
"we need to turn around...
Why she asked? (me)
Didn't you see the sign back there saying Show Tickets? (Leno ticts)
Laughing she said Your BLIND..... It Said SHOW TiTS.......Gotta Love Sturgis :SM:
signed....BUBBIE
Ray, I'm with you on the feel and sound of nasty low end staccato firing cams. I love the sound of a motor at idle or coming up in r's that has a slight "miss" sound to it because of the way it is making power, almost sprint car or NASCAR sounding. They just sing when they get into the power band.
Were it me, I would have to put the other cams back in, just to satisfy my peace of mind. Even if the bike has to go back for one final tune.
Then, ride the p out of it for the rest of the season.
Good luck!
How about a 662-3? Or maybe a HQ-0037 would work well with your exhaust ?
Just once I'd like to see you take that bike to the track & get some time slips before you make a change. :scoot:
Cam companies change the timing on the lobes to give them that nasty sound. Thumper cam, bumper cam whatever. Doesn't make them faster. Just makes them sound faster.
If you're serious about racing that bike go to the track with the 640's before you get the urge to pull them. if you just like making noise pick the cam that makes you happy. :bike:
I would agree.
Quote from: Buffalo on July 19, 2015, 07:59:51 AM
Just curious here, but the dyno doesn't show any of that "cocked and locked", in fact both cams show very linear performance all the way up to shutoff.
I have found the 640's to be deceptively fast, they kind of sneak up, but they are actually hauling the mail quite well. They are tame until you make them "not tame" (revs). The tame part makes them easy to ride in tight conditions.
I know, I know, the 651's will be going back in for another test - 8up yes!! fwiw Buffalo
The dyno would show that if the operator performed some tests at part throttle in a controlled manor and did back to back testing overlaying the graphs. A wide open roll on from 2600 is just a snap shot of that operating mode but not the same as we ride on the street even aggressively or at the drags.
I agree on the track first also but I would put some rubber on there first..
Quote from: wfolarry on July 19, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Just once I'd like to see you take that bike to the track & get some time slips before you make a change. :scoot:
Cam companies change the timing on the lobes to give them that nasty sound. Thumper cam, bumper cam whatever. Doesn't make them faster. Just makes them sound faster.
If you're serious about racing that bike go to the track with the 640's before you get the urge to pull them. if you just like making noise pick the cam that makes you happy. :bike:
:up:
No doubt, unless this is going to only be a hot street bike, then go for whatever sound and ride experience floats your boat. As it sits right now I'm guessing it's a mid-low 11 second bike. Damn fast for a bagger but nowhere close to the winners circle.
If this bike is leaning to be a track bike with limited street use, then bump the comp even more (12.5-14), and push the lift into the .700's on the cam profile- I'm guessing gotta make close to 200 to be competitive in the bagger class...
Quote from: wfolarry on July 19, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Just once I'd like to see you take that bike to the track & get some time slips before you make a change. :scoot:
Cam companies change the timing on the lobes to give them that nasty sound. Thumper cam, bumper cam whatever. Doesn't make them faster. Just makes them sound faster.
If you're serious about racing that bike go to the track with the 640's before you get the urge to pull them. if you just like making noise pick the cam that makes you happy. :bike:
:agree: Dennick, the guy that's been dominating the dresser class, told me at Bowling Green, point blank, that Woods cams make a good looking sheet but won't run on the track. Don't know about your Cycle Rama's, but I do know there is nothing like A and B comparison.
Ray, you are da man. :up:
I had to run a few errands this morning so while it was still cool out I decided to ride the bike and get another impression of the 640 cams. I pulled out of the driveway and rolled up to 3200 rpm's and shifted into 2nd gear and I felt the clutch slip...then grab all the sudden. :doh:
It did it to me two more times in the first 3 or 4 miles. It seemed once the primary fluid came up in temp the slipping wasn't noticeable anymore. I rode it close to 50 miles and 20 of those miles were on the interstate cruising at 75 mph. It was smooth as glass cruising at 75 mph. I must say I've noticed that the bike is amazingly smooth at all rpm's now with the 640's. The 651's made the bike shake more and caused way more vibration through out the whole bike. In town manners of the 640's are very nice. Like I said...I'm going to continue to run the 640's and give them a far shake. After this mornings ride and the smoothness of the bike it might be hard pressed for me to pull them out just to go back to a more radical sounding cam.
When I got home I put the bike up on the lift and pulled the primary cover off to make some clutch changes. I pulled the fibers and steels out and inspected them. I cleaned and sanded the steels and the fibers still looked brand new. I put the heavier weights on the lock up that Chance sent me and I went back with three green and three gold springs staggering them.
I took the time as I promised and I weighed the weights. The stock weights weighed 23 grams each and the new heavier weights weighed 46 grams each...double the weight on each.
I buttoned it back up and took it out for another ride. I launched it pretty hard a few times trying to make the clutch slip so I could feel it...but no matter what I tried I couldn't get it to slip. I shifted it at 5K multiple times and it was just flat out hooked up...and flew like a bat out of hell.
Maybe these heavier weights were the answer to the clutch slippage I was having.
stock lock up weight
[attach=0]
heavier lock up weight
[attach=1]
Ray
Load er up and come up to Martin MI. this coming weekend .
My little mouse motor ran 11.5 without the blower . @ only 116 hp :scoot:
Having big hp is cool if you can get it to the track in 1st and 2 nd gear .
If ya can't get er hooked good in the first 300 ft , it's nice to have a big charge up top for the last 400 ft. With your hp and a marginal 300 ft , it should get in the 10's like it is .
Nice job Ray . It's quiet as a church mouse . Give it some time , you might get used to not having that angry feel at cruise. :nix:
Ray- Stroker beat me to my response (as did a few others) I'd be very interested to see what the 640s do for you at the track. Not yanking the front sky high and/or blowing the tire off all the time is a good thing for fast times haha. I have a buddy with a build similar to mine but using a set of S&S 585s. Has a pretty healthy tq dip up to 3500 or so - one that would get a lot of negative comments here. Ya know what? I REALLY have to be in my game to match him at the track. If I do my part we run very similar times- but I'm usually fighting a lot of wheelspin leaving the line. Something to think about.....
I am struggling to get what it is you really want Ray. With a good vision of where you want to be and what this bike is to do this project could get traction in a literary sense. In other words be directed. I am not saying it is bad but if you want to have a good track bike then head for that. If it is a bar hopper weekend street warrior then go there. If it is s cross country bagger cruiser then so be it. I can tell you this thread will be going on years if you expect to hit all those bases well. It takes different parts and setup to do each of these well. It will take a lot of overtime to fund it. Plus another bike, a stage 1 deal, will need to be bought if you want yo ride at all during the season. And last but not least you will need a Groupon for tuning.
This engine started out to be a run around town good running 124. I then thought seriously about trying to get a little more out of it and see if it would be competitive at the strip. At that point in time the bagger class was running in the mid ten's. Jim needed a bike one race weekend and I loaned him mine to run to see where it was actually at. It didn't do too well and blew thru the Primo clutch and did big huge wheel stands off the line. I got bit by bug when I was at the track that weekend and I seen that my bike was no where near what the competition was running. I set my aim to go a little higher in the horsepower department and I thought I might be getting closer with this last combo I tried. I know where it sits right now it's still not going to be running with the top guys. So I will just dig deeper and keep going until I find what is needed to run with these guys.
When I eventually take this bike to the track it will be competitive...or it won't go. I won't be going there to just make a few passes and get knocked out in the first round. I'm wanting to leave a mark when I know it's ready...and maybe have some people ask who the hell was that guy...and where did he come from. :nix:
I have a local drag strip that I can test and tune on...so until I feel it's worthy of being loaded up and going racing I will continue my efforts to strive to make it competitive.
Ray
See Ray you need a Coulpe of bikes to obtain what your looking for,See Ray I run the -2's in my 131,but I also wish it would be more tame on the bottom,it's not all that friendly, more like a red headed step child it likes to get beat........ :hyst:
Also has that shake rattle and roll thing also!
Run the 640's you might come to like them!
Mike...they are growing on me fast. Every time I ride it I like them more.
Yesterday I hated them.
Today...not so much.
The over all smoothness the bike has gained with the 640's is amazing. It's not shaking and beating itself to death at a red light now.
I've just been use to that cocked and loaded feeling for so long that my 1st impression of the 640's left me questioning the swap. But after working on the clutch today and letting it chew a few times afterwards...I have to say the 640's hit very hard and they come to life very quick. I do think I'll be able to live with them for awhile.
Ray
I can't wait till you get it to the track. I'm so glad your starting to enjoy it .
Good for you Ray, glad to hear youre getting to ride.. now to get this Oh weather to cooperate! Ride the A$$ off that thing for the rest of the season!
Ray,
FWIW, the very first thing I want to get best at is the launch and carry the front wheel.
Tire pressure definitely helps the hookup but nowhere as important as clutch setup and technique/control which makes it possible to get close to perfect launch for your setup. Clearly understanding how each clutch's friction zone works and practicing best launch until, when you get to the line, you already know exactly what will happen and you have complete control because you've perfected your technique.
Once you've got that mastered move your conncentration to being exact with each shift.
Exact to the rev point you should be at not what you think you need to be at.
Experience is king so anyone who has your setup who has been doing this for more than a season should be a wealth of information...you just have to garner it doing and listening to the right folks. Some are right here.
Bob
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 19, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Load er up and come up to Martin MI. this coming weekend .
My little mouse motor ran 11.5 without the blower . @ only 116 hp :scoot:
Having big hp is cool if you can get it to the track in 1st and 2 nd gear .
If ya can't get er hooked good in the first 300 ft , it's nice to have a big charge up top for the last 400 ft. With your hp and a marginal 300 ft , it should get in the 10's like it is
That is damn impressive for a heavy bagger, as I ran 11.88 with 112 hp on a FXR with a 1.60 60' ft.
Quote from: pwmorris on July 19, 2015, 04:34:17 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 19, 2015, 01:07:21 PM
Load er up and come up to Martin MI. this coming weekend .
My little mouse motor ran 11.5 without the blower . @ only 116 hp :scoot:
Having big hp is cool if you can get it to the track in 1st and 2 nd gear .
If ya can't get er hooked good in the first 300 ft , it's nice to have a big charge up top for the last 400 ft. With your hp and a marginal 300 ft , it should get in the 10's like it is
That is damn impressive for a heavy bagger, as I ran 11.88 with 112 hp on a FXR with a 1.60 60' ft.
Yes but that 11.5 was uncorrected! :wink:
Martin MI is about 45 minutes north of me and I think that's the same weekend some guys from work are headed up there.
hmmmm.
Quote from: wfolarry on July 19, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Just once I'd like to see you take that bike to the track & get some time slips before you make a change. :scoot:
Cam companies change the timing on the lobes to give them that nasty sound. Thumper cam, bumper cam whatever. Doesn't make them faster. Just makes them sound faster.
If you're serious about racing that bike go to the track with the 640's before you get the urge to pull them. if you just like making noise pick the cam that makes you happy. :bike:
Reminds me many moons ago working in a small engines shop. Had a customer who bought a new ridding mower. Swore it had less power than his 20 year old wore out mower. Boss had me pull and unwrap the baffle along with drilling a bunch of holes in it. Was twice as loud. Made some excuse to the customer. He loved it! Swore we worked a miricale on it.
In all do respect Ray, you can have the best weapon in the fight and loose because you don't know how to use it. I thought my launches would be easy because of my motocross background. I found that the strip is a whole new ball game. Get to the strip, have fun and learn the fine art of drag racing.
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2013, 08:08:01 PM
:agree:
I found there is a huge mark up on ARP fasteners when you go thru some after market motorcycle parts suppliers.
I re-searched it...and found the fastener store I located sold them @ way less than other places. He sells them as a single bolt/nut at a time. Order as many or few as you want. He offers discount prices when ordering some things in bulk.
He charges $6.95 flat shipping on orders mailed in the good ole USA.
http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q (http://www.allensfasteners.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=61&gclid=COWqqbTY1LcCFchDMgodJ1EA_Q)
+1 on Allen's fastners....
Jay...don't think for a second that I'm not practicing on my launches. It might not be at a drag strip that will be giving me a time slip...but I do have a nice country back road that is perfect for practicing on. It's only a mile and a half from the house and it has a nice flat 3/4 miles straight stretch that I burn up.
Ray
Hey Ray,have you tried a lower final drive ratio?Why not try a 3.5 or 3.6 in 5th not sure if you have a 6sp.I think that would be a good fit for the 640's and not for the 651's.
John
I'm running a 3.27 final drive right now.
Ray
Easy swap for you because of your chain drive,drag racers always have an assortment of rear sprockets anyway.
What is your top speed in 5th at 6800.
Maybe start by dropping one on the front,that would give you room to go 1 up on the rear.
It won't pull out that far to 6800 rpm's.
The 640's and my exhaust are done before that.
Ray
NoCents,
Any idea what you'll do about the pipe? camshaft?
Drag racing isn't my thing, never done it either, but I'd expect the principle of specificity to apply when comparing a street launch to the track. Maybe someone that races will explain the differences between a street launch and track?
Quote from: jam65 on July 19, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
In all do respect Ray, you can have the best weapon in the fight and loose because you don't know how to use it. I thought my launches would be easy because of my motocross background. I found that the strip is a whole new ball game. Get to the strip, have fun and learn the fine art of drag racing.
+ 1 on the Motox back ground
Not gonna learn on a back street or country road. I thought that I would be all over it but you don't get a full understanding until you are lined up on the strip with the Xmas tree that's for sure
launch on the street vs track .. nothing alike .. So you can get your process in place and do that at your test area. But once at the track you may find that the bike wants to stand straight up or bogs.. Our 1/8 mile where I go 99% of the time has some of the fastest 8.5 and 10.5 cars so the pad is extremely sticky and they prep like nothing I have seen
Ray, nothing wrong with what you are doing IMO, the above is correct as far as differences between strip and track, but you are still getting a feel for releasing the clutch, ect.
When you get to the strip you will need to first get your burnout and staging consistent, as I tell everyone that I coach, staging is the number one, most important aspect of drag racing, any variance one way or the other will effect all of the incremental's, 60', 330', 1/8th, 1/4 mile ET's as well as MPH and reaction time.
When you get ready to go the first time, let me know, if I am available I will come and give you some pointers.
Until then, keep up the good work :up:
Daren
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 20, 2015, 06:45:14 AM
launch on the street vs track .. nothing alike ..
I agree, I ran this bike with a slick & wheelie bars for years some years back.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo51/jmorton10_photo/Harley_zpsb5568fda.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/jmorton10_photo/media/Harley_zpsb5568fda.jpg.html)
It certainly helps to practice on a back road, but the first time you hit the track most people are amazed at the difference.
~John
Quote from: Durwood on July 20, 2015, 07:03:10 AM
Ray, nothing wrong with what you are doing IMO, the above is correct as far as differences between strip and track, but you are still getting a feel for releasing the clutch, ect.
When you get to the strip you will need to first get your burnout and staging consistent, as I tell everyone that I coach, staging is the number one, most important aspect of drag racing, any variance one way or the other will effect all of the incremental's, 60', 330', 1/8th, 1/4 mile ET's as well as MPH and reaction time.
When you get ready to go the first time, let me know, if I am available I will come and give you some pointers.
Until then, keep up the good work :up:
Daren
You mean my 60 foot will go down at the track :hyst: TOO funny I had the truck on TT night and I was trying to see how high I could launch it without shaking the tires. Well I started at 3500 and ended up leaving on the converter at 4200 and hitting it dead out the hole with 175 shot all in on the first gun.. Data log showed almost no tire slippage and that is a DOT MT 295/60/17 !!!!!
Now on the street where we test and .... ahh play so to speak I have another setting for the launch .. 3000 on the cushion and I hit the second kit on a progressive controller and can only hit for 100 and have to ramp the rest in bring the second kit on line very slooooooow ...
I love the track and I have the bike almost into the high 6 second 1/8 at this point .. Way different ...
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 20, 2015, 07:15:55 AM
Quote from: Durwood on July 20, 2015, 07:03:10 AM
Ray, nothing wrong with what you are doing IMO, the above is correct as far as differences between strip and track, but you are still getting a feel for releasing the clutch, ect.
When you get to the strip you will need to first get your burnout and staging consistent, as I tell everyone that I coach, staging is the number one, most important aspect of drag racing, any variance one way or the other will effect all of the incremental's, 60', 330', 1/8th, 1/4 mile ET's as well as MPH and reaction time.
When you get ready to go the first time, let me know, if I am available I will come and give you some pointers.
Until then, keep up the good work :up:
Daren
You mean my 60 foot will go down at the track :hyst: TOO funny I had the truck on TT night and I was trying to see how high I could launch it without shaking the tires. Well I started at 3500 and ended up leaving on the converter at 4200 and hitting it dead out the hole with 175 shot all in on the first gun.. Data log showed almost no tire slippage and that is a DOT MT 295/60/17 !!!!!
Now on the street where we test and .... ahh play so to speak I have another setting for the launch .. 3000 on the cushion and I hit the second kit on a progressive controller and can only hit for 100 and have to ramp the rest in bring the second kit on line very slooooooow ...
I love the track and I have the bike almost into the high 6 second 1/8 at this point .. Way different ...
If you are "in deep" from the normal staging spot, yes, your 60' will be slower ET wise, as well as all the other measurements.
I roll into the pre-stage beam, stop, make sure everything is on and ready, then carefully bump into the stage beam.
I want to be in just far enough to make it stay on.
I agree with the track being different, and if you re-read my post, I stated that.
My point is if Ray can launch that bike on a stretch of un-prepped black top, without spinning, he will be able to run on any track, not just a good one.
Nothing worse than to get spoiled by a track operator that knows how and does properly treat the racing surface, then go to a track that doesn't and have to try to get hooked up.
Any of these fast bikes going to race at sturgis this year ?
Pro charger has asked me to come . So I am considering making the trip .
I hate 1/8 mile tracks , but it's been 5 years since I been to sturgis .
Martin MI this weekend AMRA race . Sturgis BHDRA the next . Bring em out and play .
Pretty sure Bert Baker and crew will be at martin again this year .
Going to have the 2 stroke club there as well . It's always fun watching the ring dingers .
http://www.dragbike.com/procharger-joins-bhdra-as-the-king-of-the-sturgis-drags-sponsor/ (http://www.dragbike.com/procharger-joins-bhdra-as-the-king-of-the-sturgis-drags-sponsor/)
Quote from: Durwood on July 20, 2015, 07:03:10 AM
Ray, nothing wrong with what you are doing IMO, the above is correct as far as differences between strip and track, but you are still getting a feel for releasing the clutch, ect.
When you get to the strip you will need to first get your burnout and staging consistent, as I tell everyone that I coach, staging is the number one, most important aspect of drag racing, any variance one way or the other will effect all of the incremental's, 60', 330', 1/8th, 1/4 mile ET's as well as MPH and reaction time.
When you get ready to go the first time, let me know, if I am available I will come and give you some pointers.]
I don't want to muck up Rays excellent thread, but since it has come up, I have been considering running the AMRA . bagger class. I ran a Bracket car for years, but this will be the first time running a bike. Any body care to share some tips for getting started, tire pressure etc.? I have an excellent local 1/8 mile track here is southern IL that runs a Friday test and tune and bike class, hope to get my launches down her before I try an AMRA race.
I can tell you if you wait for the green you're late.. :wink:
Quote from: Barrett on July 20, 2015, 10:38:07 AM
I can tell you if you wait for the green you're late.. :wink:
never had that problem, delay boxes took care of that for me. red was another rproblem
QuoteI don't want to muck up Rays excellent thread, but since it has come up, I have been considering running the AMRA . bagger class. I ran a Bracket car for years, but this will be the first time running a bike. Any body care to share some tips for getting started, tire pressure etc.? I have an excellent local 1/8 mile track here is southern IL that runs a Friday test and tune and bike class, hope to get my launches down her before I try an AMRA race.
I share a little with ya .
I have ran as low as 13 psi and as high as 24 psi in the rear tire.
Practicing your launch on the street will not help you hone your track launch . In fact it will probably screw you up .
As you already know ,no two tracks are exactly the same .
Going to my local track doesn't help me much . In fact I only go to have some fun . They really don't know how to prep a track for bikes .maybe I 57 is better . :nix:
If you come to an AMRA race with a street tire , you have to line up out of the groove . Far right or far left of the groove . Only slick bikes get to launch in the groove .
So when T&Ting be sure and get out of the groove if your trying to improve your launch . You might get by with launching in the groove at T&T . But Marty or Jimmu will jump your Azz if they catch ya .
Most of the tracks we run know how to prep for bikes , so we get a pretty sticky pad to launch from .
It does take a while for the outside to start to come around for us street tire guys . So be patient and wait a little before you make big changes in pressure and rpms .
Good luck and hope to see ya there . Be good to have another IL. Guy around
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 22, 2015, 07:57:06 AM
QuoteI don't want to muck up Rays excellent thread, but since it has come up, I have been considering running the AMRA . bagger class. I ran a Bracket car for years, but this will be the first time running a bike. Any body care to share some tips for getting started, tire pressure etc.? I have an excellent local 1/8 mile track here is southern IL that runs a Friday test and tune and bike class, hope to get my launches down her before I try an AMRA race.
I share a little with ya .
I have ran as low as 13 psi and as high as 24 psi in the rear tire.
Practicing your launch on the street will not help you hone your track launch . In fact it will probably screw you up .
As you already know ,no two tracks are exactly the same .
Going to my local track doesn't help me much . In fact I only go to have some fun . They really don't know how to prep a track for bikes .maybe I 57 is better . :nix:
If you come to an AMRA race with a street tire , you have to line up out of the groove . Far right or far left of the groove . Only slick bikes get to launch in the groove .
So when T&Ting be sure and get out of the groove if your trying to improve your launch . You might get by with launching in the groove at T&T . But Marty or Jimmu will jump your Azz if they catch ya .
Most of the tracks we run know how to prep for bikes , so we get a pretty sticky pad to launch from .
It does take a while for the outside to start to come around for us street tire guys . So be patient and wait a little before you make big changes in pressure and rpms .
Good luck and hope to see ya there . Be good to have another IL. Guy around
Thanks. haven't been to I 57 in awhile, and they are undergoing a complete makeover right now, really impressive. The old track here in Harrisburg was completely re-done a few years ago and is outstanding. last Saturday Baird brought his front engine dragster down from Assumption and went 3.99 @ 181
Thanks. haven't been to I 57 in awhile, and they are undergoing a complete makeover right now, really impressive. The old track here in Harrisburg was completely re-done a few years ago and is outstanding. last Saturday Baird brought his front engine dragster down from Assumption and went 3.99 @ 181
[/quote]
I spent a little time in Harrisburg once....as a juvenile......... :oops:
Quote from: mr_natural78 on July 24, 2015, 08:48:46 AM
Thanks. haven't been to I 57 in awhile, and they are undergoing a complete makeover right now, really impressive. The old track here in Harrisburg was completely re-done a few years ago and is outstanding. last Saturday Baird brought his front engine dragster down from Assumption and went 3.99 @ 181
I spent a little time in Harrisburg once....as a juvenile......... :oops:
[/quote]
LOL!! so have a lot of kids
What cams ya running this week Ray ? :SM:
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
:up: :up:
Man, I hear that.
Going through the same thing now.
I am gong to try Rekluse's torque drive setup for my 127 to see if it solves the slip issue.
Looking at the frictions, they show lots of wear.
I'm going back to a diaphragm spring also instead of the coil spring set up.
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
Better be a Superclutch-a sportsman ain't gonna cut it. This is the time for the MTC multi stage hat on top of it if this bike wants to compete at the track. Bandits 3 finger is OK but it is only one stage and once it locks up, ....wheelie time....with no bar on it.
I have a customer running the AIM CF2 clutch in his Road King. HP and TRQ in the 140's. No Slip being reported and he runs it at the strip.
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
Your gonna like the bandit .
Since it is a 6 sp model it is a super clutch per say already .
More coefficient of friction since it is the 6 sp model also.
I just beat the 1/8 MPH record during 1st round of qualifying.
Beat the 1/4 mile mph record during T&T this morning also .( dosent count )
#1 qualifier after 1 st round .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 25, 2015, 10:36:09 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
Your gonna like the bandit .
Since it is a 6 sp model it is a super clutch per say already .
More coefficient of friction since it is the 6 sp model also.
I just beat the 1/8 MPH record during 1st round of qualifying.
Beat the 1/4 mile mph record during T&T this morning also .( dosent count )
#1 qualifier after 1 st round .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg.html)
Damn....that's what I'm talking about! Nice-
60 in the 1.60's for a land yacht is hittin it...
Now that looks like some serious bagger HP! Finally a threat for Bagger King Dennick.
Big MPH at the 1/8 and 1/4. Making steam.
Thanks guys.
Short lived though.
Paul ran a 10.27 ...110 mph 1/8 mile 136 1/4 mile mph
Still one round of qualifying to go
I just ran a little over 200 miles...and got sun burnt...if that counts for anything. :embarrassed:
nice job Jim! :up:
Ray
Are the 640's growing on you yet ?
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 25, 2015, 10:36:09 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 25, 2015, 05:14:43 AM
...the 640's are still in there...I've just been riding it every day as it sits.
I got a Bandit clutch coming that will hopefully take care of the clutch slippage. I can feel it still slipping badly in 2nd gear when it's cold...even with the heavier weights.
Ray
Your gonna like the bandit .
Since it is a 6 sp model it is a super clutch per say already .
More coefficient of friction since it is the 6 sp model also.
I just beat the 1/8 MPH record during 1st round of qualifying.
Beat the 1/4 mile mph record during T&T this morning also .( dosent count )
#1 qualifier after 1 st round .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/FEEB1159-99F1-4BAF-B675-A72487CAF93D.jpg.html)
Very impressive..
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 25, 2015, 03:17:06 PM
Are the 640's growing on you yet ?
Josh...the 640's are definitely tamer when comparing them to the 651's.
Right now I'm just happy being able to put it in the wind.
It has no trouble lighting the back tire up at will with the 640's. Randy can testify to that after our 200 mile ride we did today. We both marked the roads up pretty good on occasion. The other 5 bikes that were riding with us were in awe after seeing the display of what our bikes could do.
In the end...the 651's will eventually go back in it with a couple of other changes...but for right now I'm just going to keep riding it the way it is and get some quality seat time the rest of this season.
Ray
It would be nice to compare partial throttle pulls between to two cams. One might react way different with exhaust at say 25% throttle than the other.
yes it would Jason...but unfortunately I don't have a dyno to do such testing.
I would be a testing nut if I owned a dyno like you.
Ray
Quote from: Nowhereman on July 25, 2015, 07:45:27 AM
Man, I hear that.
Going through the same thing now.
I am gong to try Rekluse's torque drive setup for my 127 to see if it solves the slip issue.
Looking at the frictions, they show lots of wear.
I'm going back to a diaphragm spring also instead of the coil spring set up.
On a motor of that size I would go straight to the bandit clutch they have been proven. We have never had any luck with rekluse unless you want "automatic"
Quote from: Just Nick on July 26, 2015, 07:27:27 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on July 25, 2015, 07:45:27 AM
Man, I hear that.
Going through the same thing now.
I am gong to try Rekluse's torque drive setup for my 127 to see if it solves the slip issue.
Looking at the frictions, they show lots of wear.
I'm going back to a diaphragm spring also instead of the coil spring set up.
On a motor of that size I would go straight to the bandit clutch they have been proven. We have never had any luck with rekluse unless you want "automatic"
It looks to be a nicely built unit but dropping a thousand plus for a clutch for a street bike makes one pause for thought if you know what I mean.
Lets see now, 1000 for the clutch and another 1000 for the pipe.
I need to sell some stuff from my bike parts bin.
Quote from: Nowhereman on July 26, 2015, 07:39:29 AM
Quote from: Just Nick on July 26, 2015, 07:27:27 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on July 25, 2015, 07:45:27 AM
Man, I hear that.
Going through the same thing now.
I am gong to try Rekluse's torque drive setup for my 127 to see if it solves the slip issue.
Looking at the frictions, they show lots of wear.
I'm going back to a diaphragm spring also instead of the coil spring set up.
On a motor of that size I would go straight to the bandit clutch they have been proven. We have never had any luck with rekluse unless you want "automatic"
It looks to be a nicely built unit but dropping a thousand plus for a clutch for a street bike makes one pause for thought if you know what I mean.
Lets see now, 1000 for the clutch and another 1000 for the pipe.
I need to sell some stuff from my bike parts bin.
Bandit sportsman clutch is 550 retail plus another 30 bucks for the blue springs.
What you got for sale :wink:
I broke the tranny today :cry:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 03:19:34 PM
I broke the tranny today :cry:
Ray
You just needed an excuse for a DD7!
Well, that suuuucks.
this piece of metal was laying in the bottom of the housing.
I got lucky and heard the tranny come apart just a miles from the house. I was able to limp it back home and this is what I found.
[attach=0]
Ray
Bummer.. I'm kinda surprised the tire grabbed enough to do any damage..
I would say you just got really lucky!
So you need a new C clip.... What other damage?
Zach
Quote from: rageglide on July 26, 2015, 03:47:33 PM
I would say you just got really lucky!
Lucky is an understatement. :doh:
I rode it 200 miles yesterday and the last 20 miles I felt the start of a little vibration that I had never felt before. My 1st guess was it seemed to be in the primary.
This mornings little ride into town I was actually going after some primary fluid so I could pull the cover off and do an inspection...which is 4 miles each way to and from town. The vibration I was feeling yesterday decided to show it's ugly face before I could get it back home.
I'm glad it decided to start to self destructing only a 1/2 mile from the house. At least the gears look to be all good.
I talked to Fred (the guy that did my heads and t/body) and I'm going to send him my gear set and he is going to have the gears back cut and the bearings will be replaced with ceramic bearings. He mentioned something about having the gears Micro Blued too.
When this all goes back together I will be using my solid front sprocket to replace the SE comp and a Bandit clutch to compliment it all.
On a side note:
I want to say congratulations to Jim (Strokerjlk) for taking 1st place in the bagger class today at Martin Michigan in the AMRA drags.
Well done Jim !!! :up:
Ray
Quote from: biggzed on July 26, 2015, 03:58:41 PM
So you need a new C clip.... What other damage?
Zach
not really sure Zach. When I pulled the gear set there was the remains of that clip and some shiny metal slivers in the bottom of the housing.
Fred is going to magna-flux the gears and check the shaft to make sure they aren't bent. He will be replacing the weak factory second gear too.
The gear set that will return to me should be race ready.
Ray
All along in the back of my mind I've been wondering when this monster motor was going to start breaking other parts.
That's not a criticism, it's pure jealousy. LOL. I'm a fan of what your are doing.
Zach
just when I think I'm moving forward...this happens.
This will set me back now from being able to ride any time soon. :cry:
There is no quick fix to this one.
Ray
Just take a little trip to Tri County HD. See Steve Brock, tell him I sent you. :SM:
http://www.tricountyharley.com/default.asp?page=xNewInventoryDetail&id=968040&p=3&vc=touring&s=Year&d=D&t=new&year=2015&fr=xNewInventory (http://www.tricountyharley.com/default.asp?page=xNewInventoryDetail&id=968040&p=3&vc=touring&s=Year&d=D&t=new&year=2015&fr=xNewInventory)
or
http://goo.gl/JFLJjY (http://goo.gl/JFLJjY)
Yes there is call Baker have a 7 speed sitting there by the end of the week :wink:
that's the quick fix Brian. :up:
I'm half tempted to.
Ray
Nick...I've been told that Baker won't warranty a DD7 behind an engine like mine. :nix:
I'm not as lucky as you and be able to get one replaced under warranty.
With my luck...I'd be pissin 2K in the wind if I broke it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 06:44:09 PM
just when I think I'm moving forward...this happens.
This will set me back now from being able to ride any time soon. :cry:
There is no quick fix to this one.
Ray
Hot rods don't come cheap. ;-)
I'd say in this case you are presented with an opportunity to apply a bit more insurance.
:up:
Didn't see that Jim won the class, .... edit ....
Quote from: rageglide on July 26, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 06:44:09 PM
just when I think I'm moving forward...this happens.
This will set me back now from being able to ride any time soon. :cry:
There is no quick fix to this one.
Ray
Hot rods don't come cheap. ;-)
I'd say in this case you are presented with an opportunity to apply a bit more insurance.
:up:
Didn't see that Jim won the class, I saw he blew his trans up too. He got it fixed??
Won the dresser class . I haven't ever had any transmission problems . Don't be jinxing me . :teeth:
Ray sorry to hear about the trans . Bert is a sponsor of AMRA . I am sure he would take care of you if you dropped the coin .
I saw 2 R&D trans break the dogs this weekend . Nothing is bullet proof .
I know where a 2009 trans is , if ya wanna ride this summer while ya wait on R&D
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/2767BF53-AC29-4F60-9CE4-2D78EA324333.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/2767BF53-AC29-4F60-9CE4-2D78EA324333.jpg.html)
does anyone know where that clip that came off exactly went?
The gear set looks to be unhurt to me.
I might be able to just replace that clip and the main bearing and put it back together.
Congrats Jim! :up:
Ray
looks like part of a securing segment, you'll have to disassemble the gearset to find out which one
do you know where I can find a pdf...or an exploded view of a 2008 6 speed tranny?
The service manual is pretty vague.
Ray
http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/oempartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHT_FV_ELECTRA_GLIDE_STANDARD_%28EFI%29_%282008%29/TRANSMISSION_GEARS/99456-08B\FV/99456-08B\TRANSMISSION|~GEARS\FV (http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/oempartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHT_FV_ELECTRA_GLIDE_STANDARD_%28EFI%29_%282008%29/TRANSMISSION_GEARS/99456-08B\FV/99456-08B\TRANSMISSION|~GEARS\FV)
Quote from: turboprop on July 27, 2015, 03:37:19 AM
http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/oempartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHT_FV_ELECTRA_GLIDE_STANDARD_%28EFI%29_%282008%29/TRANSMISSION_GEARS/99456-08B\FV/99456-08B\TRANSMISSION|~GEARS\FV (http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/oempartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHT_FV_ELECTRA_GLIDE_STANDARD_%28EFI%29_%282008%29/TRANSMISSION_GEARS/99456-08B\FV/99456-08B\TRANSMISSION|~GEARS\FV)
Reference #8, there are 6 of them.
Here ya go Ray
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/ronnies/showmodel.asp?Type=12&make=hdmc&a=681&vehicleid=2008-Harley-Davidson-Street-Bike-FLHX-STREET-GLIDE%AE-(KB) (http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/ronnies/showmodel.asp?Type=12&make=hdmc&a=681&vehicleid=2008-Harley-Davidson-Street-Bike-FLHX-STREET-GLIDE%AE-(KB))
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 27, 2015, 02:14:01 AM
Quote from: rageglide on July 26, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 06:44:09 PM
just when I think I'm moving forward...this happens.
This will set me back now from being able to ride any time soon. :cry:
There is no quick fix to this one.
Ray
Way to go Jim :up: :up:
Hot rods don't come cheap. ;-)
I'd say in this case you are presented with an opportunity to apply a bit more insurance.
:up:
Didn't see that Jim won the class, I saw he blew his trans up too. He got it fixed??
Won the dresser class . I haven't ever had any transmission problems . Don't be jinxing me . :teeth:
Ray sorry to hear about the trans . Bert is a sponsor of AMRA . I am sure he would take care of you if you dropped the coin .
I saw 2 R&D trans break the dogs this weekend . Nothing is bullet proof .
I know where a 2009 trans is , if ya wanna ride this summer while ya wait on R&D
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/2767BF53-AC29-4F60-9CE4-2D78EA324333.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/2767BF53-AC29-4F60-9CE4-2D78EA324333.jpg.html)
thanks men! :up:
I got the pdf's printed out with the needed part #'s.
Ray
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20140220_160112_704.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20140220_160112_704.jpg.html)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/gcgyb/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20140220_160133_733.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/gcgyb/media/motorcycle%20stuff/Repairs/IMG_20140220_160133_733.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 27, 2015, 02:14:01 AM
Won the dresser class . I haven't ever had any transmission problems . Don't be jinxing me . :teeth:
Oops! My bad. Congrats!
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 07:57:12 PM
Nick...I've been told that Baker won't warranty a DD7 behind an engine like mine. :nix:
I'm not as lucky as you and be able to get one replaced under warranty.
With my luck...I'd be pissin 2K in the wind if I broke it.
Ray
While having a DD7 in the '09 SERG is great for a loaded Sport Touring bike, I would not recommend it for your application...
Quote from: FlaHeatWave on July 27, 2015, 09:53:16 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 26, 2015, 07:57:12 PM
Nick...I've been told that Baker won't warranty a DD7 behind an engine like mine. :nix:
I'm not as lucky as you and be able to get one replaced under warranty.
With my luck...I'd be pissin 2K in the wind if I broke it.
Ray
While having a DD7 in the '09 SERG is great for a loaded Sport Touring bike, I would not recommend it for your application...
If he is going to be running it down the track what he needs is a 2 speed.
But I disagree I think that the 7 speed is a great trans I have it on my little 124 compared to Rays 124
That dd7 is STRONG! Not to mention you can gear it for ANYTHING!
Quote from: Just Nick on July 27, 2015, 11:53:20 AM
If he is going to be running it down the track what he needs is a 2 speed.
But I disagree I think that the 7 speed is a great trans I have it on my little 124 compared to Rays 124
2 Speed? This ain't pro drag nitro...
Sounds like Ray has it covered with his head guy upgrading his current gear set. Anything can break, but R&D with the full treatment would be my choice-and in the mean time, run Strokers "loaner" gear set and Ray will be riding by the weekend....
Quote from: Mountainman streetbob on July 27, 2015, 11:54:30 AM
That dd7 is STRONG! Not to mention you can gear it for ANYTHING!
Yea, the 7 handles the little 117 fine, and is a great transmission for a sport touring platform.
For the power levels that Ray is operating at, the way he uses / rides his bike, street / strip, the lower, close ratio gear set seems superfluous. Ray's bike is traction / wheelie limited as it is, and on the strip could actually slow him down with the extra shifting... Yea, (with the rear chain) you could gear it to launch in 2nd, but then what's the point?
Doesn't Baker offer some different ratios with their 6sps? I know they don't offer any for the 7.
The 6speeds are stronger, just ask Bert...
What trannies are Jim (Stroker) and the other guys running at the track?
Quote from: pwmorris on July 27, 2015, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on July 27, 2015, 11:53:20 AM
If he is going to be running it down the track what he needs is a 2 speed.
But I disagree I think that the 7 speed is a great trans I have it on my little 124 compared to Rays 124
2 Speed? This ain't pro drag nitro...
Sounds like Ray has it covered with his head guy upgrading his current gear set. Anything can break, but R&D with the full treatment would be my choice-and in the mean time, run Strokers "loaner" gear set and Ray will be riding by the weekend....
The 2 speed comment was a joke
the gear set is back together and spins like butter in the trap door. It actually lost one of the two piece securing segments. I think this was a blessing in disguise happening so close to home. The tranny gears looked perfect still.
I need to come up with a way to install the new main shaft bearing into the tranny housing. I don't have the proper tool to do that.
I'm going to call around tomorrow and see if anyone close has the right tool to install it.
Hopefully I will be back on the road by this week end.
Ray
:up:
Very cool!
Ray. Put the mdg and bearing in the freezer.
Quote from: Soft 02 on July 27, 2015, 07:30:41 PM
Ray. Put the mdg and bearing in the freezer.
thanks! :up:
I didn't think of that.
Ray
You're not thinking straight Ray
Should have been on to that straight away
Gotta do it while the Missus is away
but oven and freezer ideal for fitting bearings
I'm sure you've used the dishwasher for cleaning parts
and I remember you cleaning up those cams in the sink with the sandpaper and the Dawn dish soap :teeth:
household appliances are at my disposal...when the wifeeepooh isn't looking. :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 27, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
the gear set is back together and spins like butter in the trap door. It actually lost one of the two piece securing segments. I think this was a blessing in disguise happening so close to home. The tranny gears looked perfect still.
I need to come up with a way to install the new main shaft bearing into the tranny housing. I don't have the proper tool to do that.
I'm going to call around tomorrow and see if anyone close has the right tool to install it.
Hopefully I will be back on the road by this week end.
Ray
I'd be careful here Ray, talk to FSG he's seen the lip of the transmission case crack from improper MDG bearing/MDG install.
When I replaced mine using the tool I must not have tightened it enough even though I thought I got on it good because when I went to put the drive pulley on with the drive pulley nut, it gave a false torque. It did the extra 30 degree turn way too easy. I think what happened was the MDG was still being pulled through the bearing. Re-did the torque on the nut and it was much harder the second time to get that 30 degree final tighten.
thanks for the tip Matt. :up:
I actually made me a main drive bearing tool today. I put the bearing in the freezer for three hours. It went in very easy.
I made some progress today after work.
homemade bearing tool
[attach=0]
primary side
[attach=1]
cam side
[attachimg=3]
Ray
The bandit should be there tomorrow :koolaid:
Quote from: Just Nick on July 28, 2015, 07:06:27 PM
The bandit should be there tomorrow :koolaid:
:up: :up:
I might just have this thing back on the road by this weekend. :smilep:
Ray
Then it will be time to order a pallet of rear tires
Ray, I get a little excited every time you make a repair and get it back on the road. It's almost like I'm there with you, making a good situation out of a bad, and relatively cheap this time. Thanks for sharing the running history of this machine. It's fun to see.
Quote from: Just Nick on July 28, 2015, 07:13:47 PM
Then it will be time to order a pallet of rear tires
:hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on July 28, 2015, 06:33:32 PM
thanks for the tip Matt. :up:
I actually made me a main drive bearing tool today. I put the bearing in the freezer for three hours. It went in very easy.
I made some progress today after work.
homemade bearing tool
[attach=0]
primary side
[attach=1]
cam side
[attachimg=3]
Ray
Nice work Ray :beer:
thanks Jim :up:
I know this isn't the R&D Motorsports fix...but hopefully it will let me get thru the rest of this riding without it failing again.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the solid sprocket on the primary side. I'll see how that does.
How many ounces of fluid are you guys running in your primary with your Bandit clutches?
Ray
Hey Ray,as always great thread like a kid in a candy store.I use ATF just enough to cover the ring gear about 2/3 of a liter.I also back off a full turn on the pushrod,short gold spring with MTC lockup.Did you get the super clutch for the MTC lockup,so you can just add it later as an add on.
John
16oz Ray.
Nice work! :up:
Ya, I saw the sprocket and was waiting to see the comments too. :nix: Is there a ratio change happening here also?
kd...no it's the stock 34 tooth ratio.
Ray
Looking good Ray :up:
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 03:53:00 AM
How many ounces of fluid are you guys running in your primary with your Bandit clutches?
Ray
16oz.
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 03:53:00 AM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the solid sprocket on the primary side. I'll see how that does.
oh, I noticed...probably because they are on back order. Is that a Vulcan tool steel sprocket?
I run 20 oz. of Spectro in mine Ray.
Added 2 shims to the springs the first time it went up on the drum and have never touched it since then.
18oz of Spectro in mine. All gray springs no shims but I have one of them low compression 124's.
Running 24 in mine Ray.. Belray.
Quote from: Scooter_trash_1 on July 29, 2015, 11:25:30 AM
Running 24 in mine Ray.. Belray.
Does that make the Bandit drag?
32 oz bel ray with bandit zero drag :wink: for that matter same amount with the barnett scorpion with lock up no drag with that unit either. Swapped over to the Barnett due to a damaged muscle and nerve in my forearm. With lock up I can run lighter springs .
Looking forward to feedback on the solid sprocket.
Quote from: build it on July 29, 2015, 10:14:43 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 03:53:00 AM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the solid sprocket on the primary side. I'll see how that does.
oh, I noticed...probably because they are on back order. Is that a Vulcan tool steel sprocket?
I had this Vulcan Works sprocket sitting on the shelf for almost 2 years now.
I talked to John at Bandit today and told him what my bike dyno'd and asked what he would suggest for springs and shims. He suggested starting with the 6 gray springs with 5 shims under each.
Bandit's "old gray" springs are actually "silver" now. I called them because there was no gray springs in the box. John said they had trouble with the paint coating coming off the gray springs and now they are silver in color with a zinc coating that won't come off.
Ray
Are you sure about that solid sprocket???
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: build it on July 29, 2015, 10:14:43 AM
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 03:53:00 AM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the solid sprocket on the primary side. I'll see how that does.
oh, I noticed...probably because they are on back order. Is that a Vulcan tool steel sprocket?
I had this Vulcan Works sprocket sitting on the shelf for almost 2 years now.
I talked to John at Bandit today and told him what my bike dyno'd and asked what he would suggest for springs and shims. He suggested starting with the 6 gray springs with 5 shims under each.
Bandit's "old gray" springs are actually "silver" now. I called them because there was no gray springs in the box. John said they had trouble with the paint coating coming off the gray springs and now they are silver in color with a zinc coating that won't come off.
Ray
Ray, thanks for the update. For dyno time I'll be using the heavy springs.
Can't wait to see what you come up with next.
James
Quote from: Soft 02 on July 29, 2015, 11:59:16 AM
Quote from: Scooter_trash_1 on July 29, 2015, 11:25:30 AM
Running 24 in mine Ray.. Belray.
Does that make the Bandit drag?
Not at all.. no slip either. running the grays with 2 shims.
24oz bel ray 80wt gray springs 5 spacers each
I ran the Vulcan sprocket for a few thousand miles until Bert sent me a comp to test and then a comp for testing there comp and I put the Vulcan sprocket on the shelf. It worked great the only thing I noticed was alittle bit more vibration but not much. It did not like the baker attitude adjuster though so after it twisted the first on I put the stock adjuster back in a no problems. Now I run the Baker comp and adjuster.
Ray, you might think about running a mix of the old grey and the new blue springs in combination.
Ray, are you using the silver springs to get the tune sorted and then tuning the clutch for launch?
James
No first hand experience, but that's how I was told to do it. I didn't ask about the clutch tune effecting tune up.
I would run 3 gray 3 blue to start also.
Quote from: No Cents on July 29, 2015, 03:53:00 AM
thanks Jim :up:
I know this isn't the R&D Motorsports fix...but hopefully it will let me get thru the rest of this riding without it failing again.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the solid sprocket on the primary side. I'll see how that does.
How many ounces of fluid are you guys running in your primary with your Bandit clutches?
Ray
i use 1/2 the qt of spectro.
running 3 blues and 3 grays (silver now) with 5 shims on the grays. it still has some slip,but is working pretty good on the track.
I have 3 extra blues ,just in case your grays wont hold on the dyno. :scoot:
I told them to send him some blues also he should have them
Quote from: Just Nick on July 29, 2015, 08:34:10 PM
I told them to send him some blues also he should have them
:up:
Solid motor sprocket and a stout clutch...should be easier to break stuff now. -Rick
Bandit did send 3 blue springs with the clutch.
I was thinking of starting with the 3 blues with no shims and 3 silver (old gray's) with 3 shims under them and see how that felt.
Ray
He's just going to test the S&S crank to see if he can make it shift! It the next step up for an 8UP man!
I think the 8UP motto is "Keep fixing it until it breaks" LOL.
Good luck No Cents!! I read your "book" here every day to see what next, very entertaining. Buffalo
My S&S crank is set in a Timken bearing, and it's also welded by Kirby (prodrag1320).
I know of at least a half dozen people that have eliminated their comp's and are running a solid sprocket...and they all love it. :nix:
I bought the thing a few years ago after comp #3 took a crap. Richard and Ron sent me a replacement cam and sprocket to replace the comp guts of #3. It's done well to date but I decided while I had the primary off the fix my tranny I figured what the hell...I'll give it a shot.
If I don't like it I can always change it out in a couple of hours wrenching.
Ray
Ray
It'll be interesting to see how you feel about that latest change. I have been running a solid sprocket on my S&S 93" shovel for over 30,000 miles and I have not seen or felt any issues, doesn't mean I won't eventually cause one.
And for the rest of you, yes I know I'm comparing apples and Learjets.
Mark
Hi No Cents You don't have to defend your choices to me or anyone else! You do what you think you want to try next! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on how it works. Get out there and let her rip!! LOL Buffalo
Stock TC crank I would not want to do it. That being said a stock TC crank couldn't hold up to huge HP increases. Other than some vibration sent to the rider, I bet no issues. I ran a solid sprocket on my 98" Shovel the entire time I owned it. Like Mark many miles, over 45,000 on mine. I felt no more vibration, but then it was a solid mounted motor and transmission, it had plenty of vibration as it was.
Quote from: Buffalo on July 31, 2015, 05:23:28 PM
Hi No Cents You don't have to defend your choices to me or anyone else! You do what you think you want to try next! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on how it works. Get out there and let her rip!! LOL Buffalo
the solid front sprocket lasted for about a 1/2 mile ride. I didn't like it at all and it came back out. It was noisy and added too much extra vibration for me.
I put the SE comp back in along with my CompensaVer and went out for another ride. The Bandit clutch with the 3 blue springs and the 3 gray springs with 3 shims under each of the gray's performed fantastic. The lever pull is butter! The bike pulls harder than it ever has before and the tranny is smooth as glass now.
Fast Fred sent me some primary fluid to try with the new Bandit clutch. The stuff is amazing!!! :up: I have no clunk ("NONE") when putting the bike into 1st gear now and shifting between gears it's almost silent.
Gary Williams has this primary fluid blended to his spec's. I'm beside myself at the difference it made. This is a product that you guys need to try!
I know Fred said he bought a couple of cases of it...if anyone is interested...or get a hold of Gary Williams.
It will be worth it.
[attach=0]
Ray
Sounds great Ray! Thanks for your opinion on going straight sprocket. Glad you like the Bandit. Don't have near the power as you but think the Bandit is amazing!
I can't wait for tomorrow to come. I plan on putting it in the wind and running it thru it's paces.
By the time I got it all buttoned up it was getting close to dark. I took it out for a short ride and I was thoroughly impressed with the difference the tranny fix and the Bandit clutch made. It felt like the bike had an extra 10 more hp. :embarrassed:
Ray
Good I'm glad you like the Bandit it's the best clutch out as far as I'm concerned. Now go out there and get you launches going.
Ray,
report on that primary oil in 500 miles. I am not doubting your word but it seems like everything I try in the primary is fantastic until I heat it up and beat it up for a while then I am back to the same old clanging and banging.
Mark
Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on August 01, 2015, 06:48:37 AM
Ray,
report on that primary oil in 500 miles. I am not doubting your word but it seems like everything I try in the primary is fantastic until I heat it up and beat it up for a while then I am back to the same old clanging and banging.
Mark
Lucas semi syn transmission fluid (ATF) it keeps my BDL comp near perfect.
No noise and shifts nice to neutral.
Quote from: No Cents on July 31, 2015, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Buffalo on July 31, 2015, 05:23:28 PM
Hi No Cents You don't have to defend your choices to me or anyone else! You do what you think you want to try next! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on how it works. Get out there and let her rip!! LOL Buffalo
the solid front sprocket lasted for about a 1/2 mile ride. I didn't like it at all and it came back out. It was noisy and added too much extra vibration for me.
I put the SE comp back in along with my CompensaVer and went out for another ride. The Bandit clutch with the 3 blue springs and the 3 gray springs with 3 shims under each of the gray's performed fantastic. The lever pull is butter! The bike pulls harder than it ever has before and the tranny is smooth as glass now.
Fast Fred sent me some primary fluid to try with the new Bandit clutch. The stuff is amazing!!! :up: I have no clunk ("NONE") when putting the bike into 1st gear now and shifting between gears it's almost silent.
Gary Williams has this primary fluid blended to his spec's. I'm beside myself at the difference it made. This is a product that you guys need to try!
I know Fred said he bought a couple of cases of it...if anyone is interested...or get a hold of Gary Williams.
It will be worth it.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ha ha. Way, way back when all this comp crap was going on back in 07, I welded my stock comp up solid. Got about as far as you and couldn't get back fast enough to change it back to at that time the 08 version. :hyst: 34 tooth solid was nasty in so many ways.
By the way, did you measure the SE for stack since this dimension is a new item to check? Curioius how close that one was to the current recommended spec?
Ron
no I didn't Ron.
All's I knew was that solid 34 tooth sprocket had to come off immediately and the comp had to go back on.
I was on a mission to get it changed out so I could ride it again.
I must of looked like a Nascar pit crew while I was changing it out. :hyst: In one hours time it was back down off the lift...ready to roll again.
Ray
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
By the way, did you measure the SE for stack since this dimension is a new item to check? Curioius how close that one was to the current recommended spec?
Ron
I missed this bulletin, can you share the link?
Quote from: mattVA on August 03, 2015, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 03, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
By the way, did you measure the SE for stack since this dimension is a new item to check? Curioius how close that one was to the current recommended spec?
Ron
I missed this bulletin, can you share the link?
me too...I never seen it either.
Ray
Hey Ray, Joe Lyons posted it ..I dont know how to move it here.. Sorry
thanks Scott!
I found it. :up:
Ray
added later:
this is what Joe posted in another thread. I don't know how to paste other threads either.
The actual part# for the .031" shims is 10300021...I think Joe left a 0 out.
[attach=0]
14+ compensator spring preload check
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,82010.msg917659.html#msg917659
thanks Gary! :up:
is Joe basically reversing the install order on the table of the complete comp...including the cam and sprocket...and then measuring?
I couldn't tell from his picture but I'm thinking his measurement was done without the cam and sprocket. :nix:
Ray
All the pieces except the rotor and bolt.
what are you referring to as the rotor Robin?
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2015, 05:54:25 AM
what are you referring to as the rotor Robin?
Flip the complete comp assembly with the retainer down on the bench. Check to see spokes are at the low point in the cam. Then measure between the most inboard spring edge and the extension shaft. This dimension is the amount the spring pack gets compressed when the extension shaft gets torqued down against the rotor. I believe you have the 08A still with the full Compensaver retainer. Same rules apply to this one also.
Ron
thanks Ron :up:
So basically I'll flip my complete comp assembly over upside down on the table minus the crank bolt and the outside CompensaVer round beveled washer that has the oiling feed hole in the center of it for the oiling tray.
Then do my measurement.
I just went to Tri County Harley and picked up the only .031" shim they had in stock...just incase mine needs it. Hopefully one will do the trick if I need any.
Now that I know the spec's for this...I'll put my bike up on the lift after it cools down and pull the primary apart to do the check and see where mine is at.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2015, 09:21:11 AM
thanks Ron :up:
So basically I'll flip my complete comp assembly over upside down on the table minus the crank bolt and the outside CompensaVer round beveled washer that has the oiling feed hole in the center of it for the oiling tray.
Then do my measurement.
I just went to Tri County Harley and picked up the only .031" shim they had in stock...just incase mine needs it. Hopefully one will do the trick if I need any.
Now that I know the spec's for this...I'll put my bike up on the lift after it cools down and pull the primary apart to do the check and see where mine is at.
Ray
Yup.
Ron
ok...I pulled my primary apart and measured my SE comp to see if it was within the spec's .286"- .326".
Mine measured .242". Way under spec!
My new SE shim measured .030"...so I would need another one to come into the spec's.
Tweekmytwin sent me one of the small beveled disc's to try before. With that .056" disc added back into the stack...plus the SE shim I end up with .328". Just a hair over.
Ray
Close enough
I added the .031" SE shim to the very back of the comp up against the rotor and I stacked the extra small size beveled disc I had with the other one in the same direction as the original small disc which brought my comp stack measurement to .328"...and I took it out for a ride.
The primary was dead quiet for the 1st time in ages. At shut down there was not that familiar clunk I've grown use to either.
I'll take it out for a nice long ride tomorrow and see if anything changes. But so far it seems to be worth the time it took to make these changes.
Thanks for posting the spec's Joe! :up:
Ray
Joe, these dimensions are only for the 2014 up newer generation compensators?
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 04, 2015, 03:43:11 PM
Joe, these dimensions are only for the 2014 up newer generation compensators?
Not Joe but the 08A you have requires the same preload setting and those specs are ok to follow.
Ron
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2015, 02:25:28 PM
I added the .031" SE shim to the very back of the comp up against the rotor and I stacked the extra small size beveled disc I had with the other one in the same direction as the original small disc which brought my comp stack measurement to .328"...and I took it out for a ride.
The primary was dead quiet for the 1st time in ages. At shut down there was not that familiar clunk I've grown use to either.
I'll take it out for a nice long ride tomorrow and see if anything changes. But so far it seems to be worth the time it took to make these changes.
Thanks for posting the spec's Joe! :up:
Ray
Good to hear. Too bad this info took so long to surface as it would have made a lot of SE users happy, especially with the oiler giving it a long life span. I still don't advise the second parallel stack small disc rather then the shims but hell, it's working for you so have at it. :up:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 04, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 04, 2015, 03:43:11 PM
Joe, these dimensions are only for the 2014 up newer generation compensators?
Not Joe but the 08A you have requires the same preload setting and those specs are ok to follow.
Ron
Thanks Ron. :up:
Quote from: No Cents on August 04, 2015, 02:25:28 PM
I added the .031" SE shim to the very back of the comp up against the rotor and I stacked the extra small size beveled disc I had with the other one in the same direction as the original small disc which brought my comp stack measurement to .328"...and I took it out for a ride.
The primary was dead quiet for the 1st time in ages. At shut down there was not that familiar clunk I've grown use to either.
I'll take it out for a nice long ride tomorrow and see if anything changes. But so far it seems to be worth the time it took to make these changes.
Thanks for posting the spec's Joe! :up:
Ray
i agree ray , i added 2 spacers to take mine to take me to the high side of the spec, and have been very pleased so far..\
marc
I went to the other local HD dealer and got another shim this morning. I pulled the primary back apart and got rid of the extra small disc I stacked in the comp yesterday and I went with two of the .031" shims up against the rotor.
I took it for a little test ride and I honestly didn't notice any difference...but at least it's within spec now and not a touch over the other way.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 05, 2015, 04:53:13 PM
I went to the other local HD dealer and got another shim this morning. I pulled the primary back apart and got rid of the extra small disc I stacked in the comp yesterday and I went with two of the .031" shims up against the rotor.
I took it for a little test ride and I honestly didn't notice any difference...but at least it's within spec now and not a touch over the other way.
Ray
I must say, you will dive right in and make it right. :wink: It likely would have been fine with the extra small disc. It only has an effect in light load or in transition from off/ on ramp. Noise should not change with correct preload and the light load ride feel would be barely noticable. Somehow I doubt the bike sees a lot of light load action. :hyst: Anyway, it's currently set up as it suppose to be or by the book, so to speak.
Ron
I agree Ron. I just get a kick out of Ray "I'll just pull the primary down real quick and change it." I put off changing oil, just because it's a pain on the butt. Primary? I'd be having to plan it out for a week, asking for help, tools, and prayers.
I have four shims in the comp on my 2010 to get it to the high side of the spec. It quieted it down a bunch but I still get some clatter at high RPM. tons better than it was.
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2015, 05:36:46 AM
I have four shims in the comp on my 2010 to get it to the high side of the spec. It quieted it down a bunch but I still get some clatter at high RPM. tons better than it was.
That might not be the comp at higher rpms. What tensioner are you running?
Ron
Quote from: Hossamania on August 05, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
I agree Ron. I just get a kick out of Ray "I'll just pull the primary down real quick and change it." I put off changing oil, just because it's a pain on the butt. Primary? I'd be having to plan it out for a week, asking for help, tools, and prayers.
The relax, it is no big deal. I pulled into the dealer with the lifters clattering. Low on oil. Primary way over full. Popped into the dealer and got a crankshaft seal, some other odds and ends and some oil. Pourd some oil in the engine, ran home and tore it apart, screwed it back together and met the gang where they went for dinner. They couldn't believe I had fixed it already.
Quote from: rbabos on August 06, 2015, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2015, 05:36:46 AM
I have four shims in the comp on my 2010 to get it to the high side of the spec. It quieted it down a bunch but I still get some clatter at high RPM. tons better than it was.
That might not be the comp at higher rpms. What tensioner are you running?
Ron
Stock 2010.
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2015, 05:44:31 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 05, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
I agree Ron. I just get a kick out of Ray "I'll just pull the primary down real quick and change it." I put off changing oil, just because it's a pain on the butt. Primary? I'd be having to plan it out for a week, asking for help, tools, and prayers.
The relax, it is no big deal. I pulled into the dealer with the lifters clattering. Low on oil. Primary way over full. Popped into the dealer and got a crankshaft seal, some other odds and ends and some oil. Pourd some oil in the engine, ran home and tore it apart, screwed it back together and met the gang where they went for dinner. They couldn't believe I had fixed it already.
How hard was it to change that seal with the bottom end assembled? I heard it's in there good and tight, having to use a 3 jaw puller with crankshaft removed. Specifics if possible.
Quote from: mattVA on August 06, 2015, 07:22:17 AM
How hard was it to change that seal with the bottom end assembled? I heard it's in there good and tight, having to use a 3 jaw puller with crankshaft removed. Specifics if possible.
Pull the primary down, on a 2010 that means clutch, outer and inner, compensator and rotor. Ran a drywall screw into the seal and pulled it out with a vice grip. The old seal was hard as a rock and cracked. IMO, it should be preventive maintenance at about 50,000 miles. The repair probably took an hour, but I had my pit crew Gonenorth with for expert help! :hyst:
To speed things up on a repair like this I am careful to have a clean place to set down all the parts and don't even bother to wash off the parts. No reason to if there is no debris and you keep everything clean. Set them down on some clean cardboard, look the parts over quick and stick them back in.
How often do you guys ( and Ray in particular :teeth: ) replace the primary cover gasket ?
And what other aids do you use to assist in sealing a reused gasket ?
I use the same gasket three or four times. I don't do anything other than torque to specs.
About 5 changes to 1 gasket. Inner primary I change every time. Derby gasket I never change
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 06, 2015, 06:08:09 PM
How often do you guys ( and Ray in particular :teeth: ) replace the primary cover gasket ?
And what other aids do you use to assist in sealing a reused gasket ?
my current outer primary gasket has been re-use at least 10 times.
I just wipe it off gently with a paper towel on both sides and check to make sure the black outer coating is still in place.
I've never had a leak with it yet. I also just torque it to spec.
Ray
Thanks :up:
I've had to Heli coil my inner primary twice over the last few years but, still have the same primary gasket. lol
Quote from: Nowhereman on August 07, 2015, 08:00:09 AM
I've had to Heli coil my inner primary twice over the last few years but, still have the same primary gasket. lol
Timesert will last longer I had to do the same thing on my 11 on the long primary cvr screws
I'm down again :doh:
I road the bike around 150 miles today and I kept getting a whiff of fuel after I topped it off this morning. This time at least it's nothing mechanical...but just as heartbreaking. I pulled over to take a good look after I reach my hand down on the front of the tank and it came up a little wet with gas fumes on my hand. Apparently the gas tank has developed a pin hole leak in the very front of it right at the factory welded seam it appears. :wtf:
I'm hoping I can have it welded and repaired without too much paint damage being done to the 105th anniversary color.
I'm going to talk to the local painter around here that paints most of the custom bikes and see if he can touch it up and blend it back in after it's repaired.
They only good thing is it's in the very front of the tank and it will be hard to been seen if it doesn't match perfect.
Ray
Well that just sucks . You cant seem to catch a break Ray
Not the best shape, but... right color and all.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Davidson-105th-Anniversary-FLHX-Gas-Tank-/271803446418?hash=item3f48bf7492&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Davidson-105th-Anniversary-FLHX-Gas-Tank-/271803446418?hash=item3f48bf7492&vxp=mtr)
I seen that one today Brian...thanks :up: ...but that's way more money than I want to spend for a tempo tank.
Your right Josh...just when I was starting to feel good about mine and finally starting to put some miles on it...now this happens. :banghead:
I'm looking to find a used tank (of any color) to just get me by while I have mine repaired.
I found a black one on E-Bay for $100.00 that has an eraser size dent in it. I might just have to buy that one to get me by.
I don't want to continue riding with mine because I'm afraid it will stress the hole/crack and make it bigger and possibly make it tougher to repair.
Ray
Hit the hardware store and buy a tube of Seal all. It comes in a bright yellow tube. It will seal up gas leaks. I have used it many times over the years to seal up fuel tanks leaks.
(http://eclecticproducts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/920x880/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/e/seal-all-1.0-carded-tube-us.jpg)
http://eclecticproducts.com/seal-all.html (http://eclecticproducts.com/seal-all.html)
Ray
While it may not be what you want to do, check with the off road bike shops about tank sealer. The early dirt bike tanks all had leak issues on them so a product was developed that you wash the tank out well with Lacquer thinner and then let it air dry for a few days. Once thats done you poor this stuff into the tank with everything out of the inside and then slowly turn the tank in all directions to get it to run over all the interior surfaces. Look inside and if you got it well covered you poor out the extra and then let it sit and dry. As I recall it drys for about 24 hours and then your good to reassemble and go. I've used it, and after 10 years it was still working fine when the bike got sold. Had a custom paint job and there was no way to match it, so I figure what the worst it could do, cost me a few days and few bucks and not work. Back them the stuff came in a one quart can for about $35 bucks, new paint was going to be $8 - 10K for the custom work or $3K for a stock paint job. Gave it the cheap way try and it worked fine.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 07, 2015, 06:37:33 PM
Ray
While it may not be what you want to do, check with the off road bike shops about tank sealer. The early dirt bike tanks all had leak issues on them so a product was developed that you wash the tank out well with Lacquer thinner and then let it air dry for a few days. Once thats done you poor this stuff into the tank with everything out of the inside and then slowly turn the tank in all directions to get it to run over all the interior surfaces. Look inside and if you got it well covered you poor out the extra and then let it sit and dry. As I recall it drys for about 24 hours and then your good to reassemble and go. I've used it, and after 10 years it was still working fine when the bike got sold. Had a custom paint job and there was no way to match it, so I figure what the worst it could do, cost me a few days and few bucks and not work. Back them the stuff came in a one quart can for about $35 bucks, new paint was going to be $8 - 10K for the custom work or $3K for a stock paint job. Gave it the cheap way try and it worked fine.
I've used it as well Steve, good stuff. I didn't have a leak but I wanted to seal it for corrosion and rust. Ill add that you don't want to get it on a painted surface.
thanks men! :up:
PoorUB
thanks on that tip too! :up:
I'll be at the Home Depot at 6am when they open the doors. They stock the Seal All. It costs a whole $2.39 for a tube of it...and I'll give it a try to see if it seals it up. My tank isn't leaking bad...so hopefully this will get me by until I can address it properly this winter.
If it sets up as fast as is says on the directions...I will still be able to go on the benefit ride tomorrow I was planning to do.
Thanks again men!
Ray
Quote from: PoorUB on August 07, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
Hit the hardware store and buy a tube of Seal all. It comes in a bright yellow tube. It will seal up gas leaks. I have used it many times over the years to seal up fuel tanks leaks.
(http://eclecticproducts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/920x880/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/e/seal-all-1.0-carded-tube-us.jpg)
http://eclecticproducts.com/seal-all.html (http://eclecticproducts.com/seal-all.html)
Used that stuff to seal a leak behind my fuel gauge. Didn't think it would work. 5 years and at least 60,000 miles and still sealed up.
Quote from: No Cents on August 07, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
thanks men! :up:
PoorUB
thanks on that tip too! :up:
I'll be at the Home Depot at 6am when they open the doors. They stock the Seal All. It costs a whole $2.39 for a tube of it...and I'll give it a try to see if it seals it up. My tank isn't leaking bad...so hopefully this will get me by until I can address it properly this winter.
If it sets up as fast as is says on the directions...I will still be able to go on the benefit ride tomorrow I was planning to do.
Thanks again men!
Ray
You do not have to drain the tank. Wipe on the spot with a rag to clean it up, put a glob on your finger, blow away any gas with an air hose and blow nozzle, quickly put the glob of Seal All on your finger on the hole and hold it there for a minute. If it holds, smear a bit more over the hole. It might take 2-3 attempts, but it will seal the leak.
I worked at a service station when I was in high school and we sealed up fuel tank leaks often using Seal All. Never had a come back.
Ray how you explained your leak is similar to what happened on my Softail. I felt that it was caused by having my tank on and off so many times tightening and loosening the front mounting bolts flexing the front tabs
I just buffed up that area had it welded and a bit of touch up paint back on and you couldn't pick it
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/Ando1450/IMAG0563_zps4d1c90cd.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Ando1450/media/IMAG0563_zps4d1c90cd.jpg.html)
:up: for seal all. Used it many times and on a couple of motorcycle tanks too. It never really hardens so vibration doesn't seem to effect it. You'll be very pleased
I've drilled pin holes and put in small screws that I've also sealed with gaskets and seal-all, and used a good quality tank sealer successfully too. These things will get you by until you find another good tank on line or elsewhere. A repair and repaint won't be cheap.
I was at the Home Depot when they opened the doors this morning to get some Seal All.
It was easy to find the hole with the tank off. I stood the tail end of it up and watched the gas come out of the hole.
I cleaned it good and applied the Seal All.
Now I'm letting it dry and keeping my fingers crossed.
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Ray
Ray,
I've done several after market stretched tanks over the years. The latest was a Yaffe tank that I decided NOT to seal the inside. My luck is like yours, it leaked after having it pressure testing and painted. I didn't weld the hole and used RED KOTE and sealed it. Worked perfect!
I've got the tank repaired with even a little touch up paint applied.
I'll see how it does on the benefit ride today.
Hell...40 mile an hour down the road you'll never see it. :wink:
Thanks for all the suggestions men! I truly appreciate it and hopefully I'm back on the road for the rest of the riding season.
[attach=0]
Ray
Aren't the late model tanks coated internally from HD?
Quote from: No Cents on August 08, 2015, 06:39:19 AM
I've got the tank repaired with even a little touch up paint applied.
I'll see how it does on the benefit ride today.
Hell...40 mile an hour down the road you'll never see it. :wink:
Thanks for all the suggestions men! I truly appreciate it and hopefully I'm back on the road for the rest of the riding season.
Ray
40 MPH?? Is that all you can get out of the 124?? :potstir: :hyst:
Good to see it worked for you and you are back on the road in record time. My bet is the seal all will hold up just fine. Years back we patched up a hole in a snowmobile fuel tank that had a small piece missing. We took some cloth, soaked it up with Seal All and built up a patch over the hole. Worked like a champ!
Now what is the next bug you will need to work out? :kick: :hyst:
hopefully the only bugs I'll have to worry about now is the ones I have to pick out of my teeth from smiling so much when I ride the thing. :hyst: I rode it a little over 100 miles so far today...and no more gas tank leak.
Thank you again very much for the tip on the Seal All PoorUB! :up:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 08, 2015, 01:03:19 PM
hopefully the only bugs I'll have to worry about now is the ones I have to pick out of my teeth from smiling so much when I ride the thing. :hyst: I rode it a little over 100 miles so far today...and no more gas tank leak.
Thank you again very much for the tip on the Seal All PoorUB! :up:
Ray
No problem, it was the least I could do for a fellow that gives us all so much entertainment! :potstir: :hyst:
I got me a different cam cover for the old Duracell that shows more of the gear drive cam area.
I had to grind a lot of material away from it on the outside forward edge so it would fit with my exhaust and have the proper clearance needed. I had to have it welded up on the inside in two spots after grinding on it to add more material on the inside and then I had to continue grinding on it more on the outside. I finally got my needed clearance and I stripped the paint off it and I re-painted the inner cam cover housing black again and I stripped the black coating off the outer lens housing to keep with my engines color scheme.
All in all I'm pretty happy with it the way it turned out.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2015, 09:35:34 AM
I got me a different cam cover for the old Duracell that shows more of the gear drive cam area.
I had to grind a lot of material away from it on the outside forward edge so it would fit with my exhaust and have the proper clearance needed. I had to have it welded up on the inside in two spots after grinding on it to add more material on the inside and then I had to continue grinding on it more on the outside. I finally got my needed clearance and I stripped the paint off it and I re-painted the inner cam cover housing black again and I stripped the black coating off the outer lens housing to keep with my engines color scheme.
All in all I'm pretty happy with it the way it turned out.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray, "A thing of beauty" :up: :up:
I have a Jaz mini catch can, would you post a pic or two showing where / how you have it mounted on the left down tube?
Looks sweet.
:chop:
Did you make that cover from a stock one or is it a off the shelf cover you modified for your liking
Looks good Ray. Are you concerned about the heat from the pipe and the plexi? (or is it acrylic?) We had one that developed a leak that wasn't as close to the pipe as yours.
Quote from: Just Nick on August 11, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
Did you make that cover from a stock one or is it a off the shelf cover you modified for your liking
Nick...it was made by Figure Machine...but it didn't work with my pipe so I had to heavily modify the outside of the base cam cover to make it fit.
FlaHeatWave...no problem...here you go.
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[attach=1]
Ray
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 10:31:53 AM
Looks good Ray. Are you concerned about the heat from the pipe and the plexi? (or is it acrylic?) We had one that developed a leak that wasn't as close to the pipe as yours.
Chad...I have over 500 miles on the bike with this cam cover on it with two rides being over 100 miles at one time. So far no leaks and I had the bike as hot as it will get already and it seems to be doing fine. I'm not sure what the clear lens is made out of. I'll find out. It came with a thin o-ring gasket that fits into a groove on the base cam cover that the lens and outer cover bolt over. I ended up removing the o-ring gasket because it's a pain in the ass to get it seated back into the groove and I used a small bead of silicone in the groove instead.
As far as clearance goes now...I can slip a piece of card board between the pipe and the cam cover after clearancing it. Initially I couldn't get a sheet of paper thru the gap.
Ray
added later:
Chad...according to their website the window (lens) is polycarbonate and it is UV and scratch resistant.
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2015, 10:42:51 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 10:31:53 AM
Looks good Ray. Are you concerned about the heat from the pipe and the plexi? (or is it acrylic?) We had one that developed a leak that wasn't as close to the pipe as yours.
Chad...I have over 500 miles on the bike with this cam cover on it with two rides being over 100 miles at one time. So far no leaks and I had the bike as hot as it will get already and it seems to be doing fine. I'm not sure what the clear lens is made out of. I'll find out. It came with a thin o-ring gasket that fits into a groove on the base cam cover that the lens and outer cover bolt over. I ended up removing the o-ring gasket because it's a pain in the ass to get it seated back into the groove and I used a small bead of silicone in the groove instead.
As far as clearance goes now...I can slip a piece of card board between the pipe and the cam cover after clearancing it. Initially I couldn't get a sheet of paper thru the gap.
Ray
added later:
Chad...according to their website the window (lens) is polycarbonate and it is UV and scratch resistant.
Cool, thanks Ray. We had a customer that insisted we put the PM one on. It's said "not for touring bikes" but he wanted it anyways. That's the one that developed a leak.
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2015, 10:32:34 AM
Quote from: Just Nick on August 11, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
Did you make that cover from a stock one or is it a off the shelf cover you modified for your liking
Nick...it was made by Figure Machine...but it didn't work with my pipe so I had to heavily modify the outside of the base cam cover to make it fit.
FlaHeatWave...no problem...here you go.
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[attach=1]
Ray
Ray, You 'da Man :up: :up:
Chad...mine was purchased directly from Figure Machine as one for a touring model. But when I first put it on and I tried to put my pipe on...it was all up against it. I knew that wasn't going to fly and it would melt the o-ring gasket and more than likely the window too.
So you know me...the air grinder came out and after getting the material removed to where it would need to be for the proper clearance for my pipe...I ended up grinding thru it in two different places. I clayed the inside of it to my cam plate to see if I had room to weld it up on the inside. It did...so I had it welded up real good on the inside and then I grinded it smooth again on the outside and I finish filed it to my likings. I had to counter sink two of the forward bolt holes deeper so the heads of the bolts were recessed into the cover and not sticking out past the cam covers edge. It took some work and a few days of making modifications and mock up...but I think it's going to work out for me well now.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2015, 11:19:33 AM
Chad...mine was purchased directly from Figure Machine as one for a touring model. But when I first put it on and I tried to put my pipe on...it was all up against it. I knew that wasn't going to fly and it would melt the o-ring gasket and more than likely the window too.
So you know me...the air grinder came out and after getting the material removed to where it would need to be for the proper clearance for my pipe...I ended up grinding thru it in two different places. I clayed the inside of it to my cam plate to see if I had room to weld it up on the inside. It did...so I had it welded up real good on the inside and then I grinded it smooth again on the outside and I finish filed it to my likings. I had to counter sink two of the forward bolt holes deeper so the heads of the bolts were recessed into the cover and not sticking out past the cam covers edge. It took some work and a few days of making modifications and mock up...but I think it's going to work out for me well now.
Ray
Well done.
Looks good Ray well done!!
John
Quote from: No Cents on August 11, 2015, 11:19:33 AM
Chad...mine was purchased directly from Figure Machine as one for a touring model. But when I first put it on and I tried to put my pipe on...it was all up against it. I knew that wasn't going to fly and it would melt the o-ring gasket and more than likely the window too.
So you know me...the air grinder came out and after getting the material removed to where it would need to be for the proper clearance for my pipe...I ended up grinding thru it in two different places. I clayed the inside of it to my cam plate to see if I had room to weld it up on the inside. It did...so I had it welded up real good on the inside and then I grinded it smooth again on the outside and I finish filed it to my likings. I had to counter sink two of the forward bolt holes deeper so the heads of the bolts were recessed into the cover and not sticking out past the cam covers edge. It took some work and a few days of making modifications and mock up...but I think it's going to work out for me well now.
Ray
Nice work Ray .
Now you can focus on building a pipe, that will get the other half of that HP you have with the new heads. :potstir:
Jim...I found a little something in my pipe that was possibly restricting the flow some I'm working on smoothing out right now.
Where I had to have the pipe welded at the collector to the muffler housing the patch weld penetrated some slag dingle berries thru into the inside of the pipe...thus restricting flow I would think.
I took a piece of thread all about 18" long and drilled out the center of it on one end so I could slide in a shanked burr bit to reach back into the muffler housing far enough to grind on those burr's to knock them down. I taped it together and gave it an initial try and it seems to work. I'll take it to my buddy's and have him weld the burr bit on the thread all so I can get serious with it now.
Here is a picture of it and if you look closely you can see just some of the dingle berries inside my pipe.
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Ray
Hey Ray,if you where to build another set of pipes what would you build?
John
You find out that bit of dingle berry patch actually helps in the lower rpm area. :chop:
Since you are racing the bike removing the dingle berries may help on the very top end rpms.
Bob
Quote from: No Cents on August 12, 2015, 11:58:01 AM
Jim...I found a little something in my pipe that was possibly restricting the flow some I'm working on smoothing out right now.
Where I had to have the pipe welded at the collector to the muffler housing the patch weld penetrated some slag dingle berries thru into the inside of the pipe...thus restricting flow I would think.
I took a piece of thread all about 18" long and drilled out the center of it on one end so I could slide in a shanked burr bit to reach back into the muffler housing far enough to grind on those burr's to knock them down. I taped it together and gave it an initial try and it seems to work. I'll take it to my buddy's and have him weld the burr bit on the thread all so I can get serious with it now.
Here is a picture of it and if you look closely you can see just some of the dingle berries inside my pipe.
[attach=0]
Ray
Ray
All thread is soft stuff, it will bend at rpm and can make a dangerous mess.
Get a piece of cold rolled just to be safe.
Don't ask how I know.
Quote from: John/1 on August 12, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
Hey Ray,if you where to build another set of pipes what would you build?
John
John...I plan on making another pipe...actually two different sets. The next ones will be out of mild steel rather than stainless just to see how well they do...or don't do before spending the extra cash on stainless. I love the way the stainless tubing cools faster and I just like the raw look of stainless too.
I plan on making another 2n1 using larger OD tubing with different length steps and a set of 2n2 stepped drag pipes to compare with.
This is on my winter list of things to do.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 12, 2015, 02:34:52 PM
Quote from: John/1 on August 12, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
Hey Ray,if you where to build another set of pipes what would you build?
John
John...I plan on making another pipe...actually two different sets. The next ones will be out of mild steel rather than stainless just to see how well they do...or don't do before spending the extra cash on stainless. I love the way the stainless tubing cools faster and I just like the raw look of stainless too.
I plan on making another 2n1 using larger OD tubing with different length steps and a set of 2n2 stepped drag pipes to compare with.
This is on my winter list of things to do.
Ray
Nothing wrong with mild steel for exhaust, have it "Jet Hot" coated, I know there are other companies that coat pipes, but I have seen the lasting results of Jet Hot's coatings at the drag strip for many years.
They will coat them inside and out.
http://www.jet-hot.com/ (http://www.jet-hot.com/)
Daren
thanks for the suggestion Daren. :up:
I have a set of Kook's headers on my 2007 Roush Stage 3 that I had Jet Hot Coated.
Eight years later...they still look as new as the day I bought them. Outstanding company and process they use.
Ray
my make shift extension for the burr bit worked out nicely.
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It got rid of the bigger hanging dingle berries. I didn't go crazy with it and I just took my time and removed the larger hanging obstructions.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on August 12, 2015, 05:01:01 PM
thanks for the suggestion Daren. :up:
I have a set of Kook's headers on my 2007 Roush Stage 3 that I had Jet Hot Coated.
Eight years later...they still look as new as the day I bought them. Outstanding company and process they use.
Ray
:up: :up:
Nice job of removing the low hanging fruit Ray. I bought a set of Kooks turbo headers for a Mustang project and they were a work of art.
Quote from: jam65 on August 12, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
Nice job of removing the low hanging fruit Ray. I bought a set of Kooks turbo headers for a Mustang project and they were a work of art.
Mine were a work of art too......after I modified all 8 primary tubes. :turd:
No fruit in my merge collector, this is the way they should look Ray
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/Ando1450/IMG_20150115_091144605_HDR_zps0de3ed22.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Ando1450/media/IMG_20150115_091144605_HDR_zps0de3ed22.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/Ando1450/IMAG4008_zpsswsjkj6r.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Ando1450/media/IMAG4008_zpsswsjkj6r.jpg.html)
Quote from: RXBOB on August 12, 2015, 09:38:40 PM
No fruit in my merge collector, this is the way they should look Ray
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/Ando1450/IMG_20150115_091144605_HDR_zps0de3ed22.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Ando1450/media/IMG_20150115_091144605_HDR_zps0de3ed22.jpg.html)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/Ando1450/IMAG4008_zpsswsjkj6r.jpg) (http://s307.photobucket.com/user/Ando1450/media/IMAG4008_zpsswsjkj6r.jpg.html)
That is the way they do look coming from Burns Stainless. Ray had to have a patch welded on his collector and probably couldn't purge weld the fix which can/will produce the "berries".
Jay...you are correct. :up:
The dingle berries were from having the patch welded on after having the factory weld crack down the center...then that same weld cracked again in another spot.
So...I had this 1" wide stainless strip added around the collector at the housing for added strength. It's held up so far and apparently wasn't purged when done. The patch was actually done by a different welder because the guy that did the welding on my pipe originally was down in the Carolina's welding frames and roll cages together for a Nascar shop.
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Ray
My message is too late now but you can buy cheap extensions for 1/4" bits. I had one when I was a kid with 2 set screws to secure the bit. -Rick
Boys wasn't having a shot. I realized it was from Rays pipe repairs and Burns wouldn't sell a free bowl of berries with there products. Was just a comparison of what it used to and should look like that's all
Hey Ray what size is your 2/1,I purchased this from burns years ago and built 2/2 instead.
The big end is 4.5" and reduced to 4" it's about a foot long it accept 2.25 pipe.I wanted 2.5 so I never used it I was thinking it was to small?
John[attachimg=1]
Mine[attachimg=1]
pm sent John.
Ray
Hey Ray was it hard to get that slag out of your pipe
Fred...I got the big hang me downs ground off.
I'm probably going to pull the pipe off when I get some spare time and really concentrate on it. I was a pain in the butt trying to lay on my back trying to grind inside the pipe while I was trying to hold a flash light at the same time as the drill so I could see down inside ther at what I was aiming at.
It does look better inside it right now...but it still needs some more attention if I want it smoothed out totally.
I plan on clamping it straight up and down somehow so I'm looking straight down into it with a flood light overhead so it will give me the ability to use two hands on the drill to get a good aim at my target.
Ray
Ray what is going on over there in the barn give me the skinny😎
just sitting here waiting on the big brown truck to show up with the new rear tire. :emoGroan:
Other than that...the Game Changer is already installed and the primary is buttoned back up and I already re-loaded my TTS map back into the bike with the new primary and final gear ratio changes. I've got the new EBC rear brake pads installed into the caliper and I'm just hoping my chain will still fit and it will have enough adjustment to it from dropping from a 58 tooth rear sprocket to a 56 tooth.
Maybe I can get the rear tire mounted and installed in time for bike night today. :fish: You in if so?
Ray
You shouldn't have a problem Ray, I go between a 51t sprocket and 55t sprocket with good adjustments on both. :up:
I've got my fingers crossed John.
I hope I get lucky...for a change.
Ray
I'll go to bike night only if you drink a beer or two or 20
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sounds good...but it's 2:40 pm and no brown truck yet.
I might not be able to make it if Donny doesn't have the time to mount the tire for me.
Ray
Take it to Lees he will mount it while you wait :koolaid:
What did you end up using for a comp?
I'm still using the old SE 08A version with the original CompensaVer.
Ray
Primo Game Changer.jpg
Did you have to reweld your chain adjuster with the new comp?
The tire shows delivered did you get it? They left it at the rear door
Game Changer? Is that code for the big cams?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 27, 2015, 12:53:05 PM
Did you have to reweld your chain adjuster with the new comp?
Jason...yes I couldn't use my old welded factory tensioner. I tried but the primary chain was too loose.
I got another one and mocked it up and had it welded in place.
Nick...I was at the back door and took delivery. Then it was off to my friends shop (Don's Customs) to have it mounted.
You have to see this bike Donny just built. He took 1st place in the recent Easyrider biker build off and he is going to some other contest in Kentucky very soon. It's absolutely beautiful! My cell phone pictures give it no justice.
HighLiner...it's the Primo Rivera 32 tooth comp sprocket and shoe to change your primary gear ratio.
Donny's 1949 bike he built.
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[attach=1]
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Ray
well men...I've had a constantly blackened dry sooty spark plug on the rear cylinder every since I put the heads on my bike that Fred did for me. It would turn a new rear spark plug black in a hundred miles. It was a dry soot...and not oily so it was bugging the hell out of me why the back cylinder was doing this. The front plug looked perfect all the time. It was driving me crazy.
I tried shooting brake cleaner around the t/body flanges numerous times and the sound of the engine never changed. So I knew it wasn't a leak at the flanges.
I pondered on this for quit some time and yesterday it finally dawned on me to check the spark plug wires. This morning I pulled the plug wires and sure enough the ohm reading on the rear plug wire was off the charts high. It ended up being bad at the spark plug end of the wire. I cut it off and stripped it back and re-crimped the end back on. Both plug wires now ohm the same.
Just to be on the safe side I ordered a new set of plug wires from Jamie @ Fuel Moto and I will put them on when they arrive.
I'm going to do a test ride today and do a plug check afterwards. I hope I see better results than I've seen lately.
the plugs
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Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 08:41:02 AM
well men...I've had a constantly blackened dry sooty spark on the rear cylinder every since I put the heads on my bike that Fred did for me. It would turn a new rear spark plug black in a hundred miles. It was a dry soot...and not oily so it was bugging the hell out of me why the back cylinder was doing this. The front plug looked perfect all the time. It was driving me crazy.
I tried shooting brake cleaner around the t/body flanges numerous times and the sound of the engine never changed. So I knew it wasn't a leak at the flanges.
I pondered on this for quit some time and yesterday it finally dawned on me to check the spark plug wires. This morning I pulled the plug wires and sure enough the ohm reading on the rear plug wire was off the charts high. It ended up being bad at the spark plug end of the wire. I cut it off and stripped it back and re-crimped the end back on. Both plug wires now ohm the same.
Just to be on the safe side I ordered a new set of plug wires from Jamie @ Fuel Moto and I will put them on when they arrive.
I'm going to do a test ride today and do a plug check afterwards. I hope I see better results than I've seen lately.
the plugs
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Ray
Ray, those plugs look EXCESSIVELY rich. Both cylinders are way too rich wherever the bike was run to generate those plugs.
Since we no longer have lead in our fuel (lead is what put color on the porceleon) the nice tan color we looked for NOW indicates excessive rich running.
Plugs should look white-to-off white. IF you have a high powered light like an octoscope (the doc uses one to look into your ears) you can try to read the BASE OF THE PORCELEON for a thin color ring.
If you weren't too rich before the heads, whatever the heads did to the tune created the excessively rich running.
I would think you would be able to feel the bike running that rich because it will have a light throttle steady-state hesitations indicating rich.
I would say a good tune would fix that condition.
Bob
FLTRI, could the plug wires be the cause or part of the rich condition?
Will new plug wires require a new tune? I thought it was kinda light on the numbers with those new heads..
I have tried the other wires and I keep coming back to stock.. Just had a 15 ont he drum guy bought " better " wires that are stated to work with ION sensor. I could not get a good secondary pickup swapped over to primary still had some glitching.. Pulled the wires put stock on and tach pick up was smooth as butter.. Even on the 15 PSI boosted builds stock wires have never let me down.
For riding I do not think they will promote a issue.. and I have had some work on the drum as well.. Now I just swap right from the start of the tune and go as once hot it can be a bit harder to deal with..
Stock wires and plugs :up:
I would pay attention to when you throttle chop and when you check plugs. If you are letting a hot bike idle after a ride and you are opening your garage door etc etc..... You are only seeing an indication at idle. This isn't what is happening as you are rolling down the rode at cruise or at WOT.
If Jim set you to idle at 13.8. With the free flowing build that you have. A bit a reversion can indicate 13.8 at the sensor when in reality it can be running at 12.8 in the combustion chamber. It would make sense that this reversion would affect rear more than front because of pipe design. (all open Harley exhaust. Not just because it is a burns.) Open the throttle for normal cruise. Reversion is different. Sensors seem to sample better and the target of 14.2 might be spot on. WOT the sampling is better because you are usually building pressure in the exhaust through out the whole pull.
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I would throttle chop at different conditions and read plugs at each condition. Look at the big picture. I have used and tuned many sets of those plug wires bought directly from the manufacture with only one complaint. I have to pick up from primary side because the wire is too thick to get my secondary clamp on. Those NGK's work fine for me also.
these are the same plugs after a 40 mile ride.
Much better!
same plugs burning way better.
[attach=0]
Ray
I would go hotter, by 1
Definite improvement...
Try a D7EA. :fish: .
N-gin...I'll fess up. :embarrassed:
I've been changing rear plugs out a couple of times a week. The other day I grabbed an old NGK plug that I had setting on the work bench to replace the back plug that was covered in soot again. I must have ten sets of NGK plugs on the work bench.
I guess I didn't look to see if it was an 8 or a 7. I've been running 8's in it for a few months now. I apparently grabbed a good clean looking 7 by mistake that apparently had to of come out of the front head and without looking at the part number on it I went ahead and put it in. :doh: I could always tell when the plug sooted up...it would idle rough and start harder after it was up to full temp. So for the last few days it has had a 7 in front head and an 8 in the back head. The two previous pictures I posted were of the 8 & 7 plugs that I pulled.
I went out and put a 8 in the rear and I took it out for another ride and this time I flogged on it pretty good.
I pulled the plugs again...and they both are pretty much all white now. The bike hasn't ran this good for quit some time.
I still can't believe I didn't think to check the plug wires a long time ago. :kick: A hard lesson learned.
I must be getting old because sometimes I just have to stew on things and keep rolling them over in my head until I can come up with the answer. :slap:
It's hell getting old. :hyst:
Ray
added later:
I've actually been running the NGK part# 4179...or the 8's...which are equal to the V-Rod plugs.
Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
N-gin...I'll fess up. :embarrassed:
I've been changing rear plugs out a couple of times a week. The other day I grabbed an old NGK plug that I had setting on the work bench to replace the back plug that was covered in soot again. I must have ten sets of NGK plugs on the work bench.
I guess I didn't look to see if it was an 8 or a 7. I've been running 7's in it for a few months now. I apparently grabbed a good clean looking 8 by mistake that apparently had to of come out of the front head and without looking at the part number on it I went ahead and put it in. :doh: I could always tell when the plug sooted up...it would idle rough and start harder after it was up to full temp. So for the last few days it has had a 7 in front head and an 8 in the back head. The two previous pictures I posted were of the 8 & 7 plugs that I pulled.
I went out and put a 7 in the rear and I took it out for another ride and this time I flogged on it pretty good.
I pulled the plugs again...and they both are pretty much all white now. The bike hasn't ran this good for quit some time.
I still can't believe I didn't think to check the plug wires a long time ago. :kick: A hard lesson learned.
I must be getting old because sometimes I just have to stew on things and keep rolling them over in my head until I can come up with the answer. :slap:
It's hell getting old. :hyst:
Ray
Not sure how the plug wire can do that. It's firing and not missing so unless it screwed with the ion sensing and that cyl got the timing pulled a lot, I can't explain it. I do remember on my softail, sometimes the front was darker, sometimes the rear. Sometimes both the same. :nix:. I quit looking at it. :teeth:
Ron
Ron...sometimes I would notice a slight hesitation once the bike was moving. No severe spitting and sputtering...but it would just seem to have a dull sounding flat engine...that would be the best way I can describe it. Once it came up to temp with a sooted plug in it...it ran like crap and I could tell it was down on power. Put in a fresh plug and it ran good until that plug built up soot on it.
I first went chasing a possible intake flange leak because the soot on the plug wasn't oily...but that wasn't it so I just kept throwing fresh plugs into it to keep riding.
For what ever reason I never gave the plug wires a thought until it was running crappier than usual yesterday and I decided to start wiggling wires with the bike running to see if that made any difference. When I moved the rear plug wire a little, the engines tone changed instantly. I figured I was finally on to something.
So this morning I went out to the barn and I ohm both wires and the ohm's read off the chart on the cylinder in question. I knew I was definitely onto my problem. I pulled the boot off it and it had a crack half way around it right at the beginning of the crimped end. I figured I had nothing to lose so I cut the wire off right before the crack and I re-stripped it and re-crimped the end back on. After I did that both wires had the exact same ohm reading and the engine runs smooth as silk now.
Ray
Ray
Do yourself a favor and feel how tight the electrical connection is at the plug. I've seen way to many that the rubber boot is snug but when you reach down and wiggle, right at the end of the spark plug the connection moves side to side. That drives the system nuts. Tighten the electrical connect and things get very happy and stay that way.
thanks Steve :up:
I can feel both plug wires actually snap into place and they are on tight once I feel them snap on.
These plug wires are probably 3 or 4 years old...and the new set I ordered should be here in the next few days.
My guess is that the wire cracked at the crimped end under the boot from me pulling it off so many times over the years.
Ray
Don't know how you feel about resistor plugs. I for one don't like them, and run a non resistor whenever possible. The D7EA is the non resistor type replacement for the Harleys.
Now I have to find the screw-on caps for the plugs ance they don't come with them.
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 03:36:42 PM
thanks Steve :up:
I can feel both plug wires actually snap into place and they are on tight once I feel them snap on.
These plug wires are probably 3 or 4 years old...and the new set I ordered should be here in the next few days.
My guess is that the wire cracked at the crimped end under the boot from me pulling it off so many times over the years.
Ray
Save the ones you have once you replace them. I do not know how many times I've pulled the set out of my tool box chasing an issue. It's good to have a known good set even, if they are old ones. Funny thing around here is we have 3 HD dealerships and none of them stock the stock OEM wires for a 2008 and newer touring bike!
Steve...I will keep these old plug wires as spares. :up:
my old bud Randy came over early this summer and I gave him all the Harley plug wires I had. I didn't have many...but I gave him what I had. He was chasing a miss in the bike he was working on for a customer.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 08:41:02 AM
well men...I've had a constantly blackened dry sooty spark on the rear cylinder every since I put the heads on my bike that Fred did for me. It would turn a new rear spark plug black in a hundred miles. It was a dry soot...and not oily so it was bugging the hell out of me why the back cylinder was doing this. The front plug looked perfect all the time. It was driving me crazy.
I tried shooting brake cleaner around the t/body flanges numerous times and the sound of the engine never changed. So I knew it wasn't a leak at the flanges.
I pondered on this for quit some time and yesterday it finally dawned on me to check the spark plug wires. This morning I pulled the plug wires and sure enough the ohm reading on the rear plug wire was off the charts high. It ended up being bad at the spark plug end of the wire. I cut it off and stripped it back and re-crimped the end back on. Both plug wires now ohm the same.
Just to be on the safe side I ordered a new set of plug wires from Jamie @ Fuel Moto and I will put them on when they arrive.
I'm going to do a test ride today and do a plug check afterwards. I hope I see better results than I've seen lately.
the plugs
[attach=0]
Ray
I have the same condition going now but, not to your extent.
I'll check my wires also.
Thanks for the tip.
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
N-gin...I'll fess up. :embarrassed:
I've been changing rear plugs out a couple of times a week. The other day I grabbed an old NGK plug that I had setting on the work bench to replace the back plug that was covered in soot again. I must have ten sets of NGK plugs on the work bench.
I guess I didn't look to see if it was an 8 or a 7. I've been running 8's in it for a few months now. I apparently grabbed a good clean looking 7 by mistake that apparently had to of come out of the front head and without looking at the part number on it I went ahead and put it in. :doh: I could always tell when the plug sooted up...it would idle rough and start harder after it was up to full temp. So for the last few days it has had a 7 in front head and an 8 in the back head. The two previous pictures I posted were of the 8 & 7 plugs that I pulled.
I went out and put a 8 in the rear and I took it out for another ride and this time I flogged on it pretty good.
I pulled the plugs again...and they both are pretty much all white now. The bike hasn't ran this good for quit some time.
I still can't believe I didn't think to check the plug wires a long time ago. :kick: A hard lesson learned.
I must be getting old because sometimes I just have to stew on things and keep rolling them over in my head until I can come up with the answer. :slap:
It's hell getting old. :hyst:
Ray
added later:
I've actually been running the NGK part# 4179...or the 8's...which are equal to the V-Rod plugs.
Sorry for the confusion.
I bought and installed a set of SE plugs on my RG from dealer and they gave me the hotter version instead of the colder plugs (bike tuned with colder SE plugs) for high compression, after about 5 miles I could tell the bike was running crappy and felt flat when I rolled on it, went back home installed my old plugs and the bike ran great again. I am surprised you didn't notice you had mis-matched plugs. I also feel with the heat generated from these high compression engines is hard on plug wires. Changed mine out on the RG at 10k post 107 build and noticed better gas mileage, low end, and throttle response.
Dang, it sounds like I should add a new set of plug wires to my build! Thanks guys! I think...... :dgust:
-Tutt
the bike was tuned with the 8's in it...the colder NGK plug. And honestly I couldn't tell a difference in it when I rode it like that today with the mismatched heat range plugs in it. I think the bike was happy to have a good spark to the rear cylinder finally. I will say the bike is doing it's job and cleaning the soot out of that rear cylinder because my pipes end cap went black after todays rides. The plugs are white now and the end cap got cleaned. Tomorrows ride will tell the tale. I plan on putting it in the wind early and riding most of the day before doing another plug check.
I did go out to the barn and I looked thru all the plugs I had laying on the work bench that I had been going thru lately. I saved them all.
Wouldn't you know it...I only had one set of the 7's on the table. They both ended up in the garbage can this time...no more grabbing a wrong heat range plug.
Ray
Quote from: Barrett on September 15, 2015, 09:22:34 AM
Will new plug wires require a new tune? I thought it was kinda light on the numbers with those new heads..
:agree: with you.
I think with all the troubles this thing had going on with it like blowing thru the clutch, the tranny not being right, and this bad plug wire...you might be right and the numbers it made might of been on the lighter side.
I'm getting ready to make another pipe...so it will make it's way back to the drum sometime this late fall or early winter.
I just have to decide if I'm going to go back with the CR651 cams or not. I do miss their badass attitude.
Ray
:oil:
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
N-gin...I'll fess up. :embarrassed:
I've been changing rear plugs out a couple of times a week. The other day I grabbed an old NGK plug that I had setting on the work bench to replace the back plug that was covered in soot again. I must have ten sets of NGK plugs on the work bench.
I guess I didn't look to see if it was an 8 or a 7. I've been running 8's in it for a few months now. I apparently grabbed a good clean looking 7 by mistake that apparently had to of come out of the front head and without looking at the part number on it I went ahead and put it in. :doh: I could always tell when the plug sooted up...it would idle rough and start harder after it was up to full temp. So for the last few days it has had a 7 in front head and an 8 in the back head. The two previous pictures I posted were of the 8 & 7 plugs that I pulled.
I went out and put a 8 in the rear and I took it out for another ride and this time I flogged on it pretty good.
I pulled the plugs again...and they both are pretty much all white now. The bike hasn't ran this good for quit some time.
I still can't believe I didn't think to check the plug wires a long time ago. :kick: A hard lesson learned.
I must be getting old because sometimes I just have to stew on things and keep rolling them over in my head until I can come up with the answer. :slap:
It's hell getting old. :hyst:
Ray
Sometimes when one is focused on the high end cutting edge stuff, the basics are easy to overlook. I'm sure we have all been guilty of not seeing the forest for the trees...
added later:
I've actually been running the NGK part# 4179...or the 8's...which are equal to the V-Rod plugs.
Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: No Cents on September 15, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
I've actually been running the NGK part# 4179...or the 8's...which are equal to the V-Rod plugs.
I run the 4179 (or DCPR8E) as well
I also have some 3606's (or DCR8EIX)
Wondering if you or anybody else has used them as a V-Rod plug replacement
Great catch Ray.
Once again thanks for sharing it here and taking us along on this journey with you.
:up: :up:
Let's get an updated build sheet including clearances, and gaskets used.
SE Pro cases
S&S 4 5/8" flywheels welded by Kirby Apathy....set with 0005" end play
S&S 4.125 cylinders bored and honed +.010 over by Bore Tech
Diamond Racing domed pistons +4cc's
Dan Thayer cam plate and 3 stage oil pump
S&S 640 cams with 1.725 stilts on the intakes
S&S Premium lifters with travel limiters
Torrington B-168 cam bearings
Vulcan Works rocker arm supports
Smith Brothers p/rods
110 heads done by Fast Freddy
S&S 66mm T/Hog done by Fast Freddy
Siemens 60lb injectors
Cometic .030" head gaskets and Cometic base gaskets
all other gaskets are factory HD gaskets thru out the bike
Bandit clutch
Evolution Industries clutch basket
CompensaVer comp oiling system
Baker Heavy Duty throw out bearing
George's Garage tranny trap door
Primo Game Changer 32 tooth comp sprocket
exhaust...made by me using Burns stainless
chain conversion with a final ratio of 3.354
Ray
Are you still using a lockup Ray?
Thanks Ray. What thickness base-gasket are you using and what is squish set at?
3.354 is overall final, right? What is the thought of changing primary from 1.35 to 1.44 on a street/ strip bike?
Jason...yes that 3.354 is my final gear ratio. I really like the gearing change. The bike pulls harder off idle and it does pull harder up thru all the gears.
My primary is a 32 tooth comp sprocket with a 46 tooth basket and the final drive is a 24 tooth tranny sprocket with a 56 tooth rear wheel sprocket.
Ray
Quote from: kd on September 16, 2015, 06:06:43 AM
Are you still using a lockup Ray?
no lock up.
kd...I finally went with the Bandit Sportsman clutch after running the Primo Pro clutch with the gold spring and it's lock up, and then the Barnett Scorpion low profile with it's lock up. My bike blew right threw both of these clutch' off the bottom until the lock ups took hold.
For the first time ever with the Bandit clutch...I can not feel the clutch slipping. I'm excited to see what my clutch graph will look like the next time it's spun on the dyno.
build it...I had to have Cometic custom make me a little thicker set of base gaskets (.031") to raise my cylinders to get my deck height as close to zero as possible.
I'm at .031" squish on the front and .030" on the rear...if memory serves me correct.
Ray
I think that gearing is way too low for what you want to do with it. Have you looked at your gearing with any gear programs? Or maybe. What is your thought on having such low gearing?
Jason...right now it's fun on the street.
The strip is yet to be seen how it will work.
Big Boyz calculator shows it @ 135.2 mph @ 6K going thru the 1/4 mile traps with the 3.354 gearing. :nix:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 16, 2015, 01:16:31 PM
Jason...right now it's fun on the street.
The strip is yet to be seen how it will work.
Big Boyz calculator shows it @ 135.2 mph @ 6K going thru the 1/4 mile traps with the 3.354 gearing. :nix:
Ray
135.2 mph is @ 6k in 6th?
yes
[attach=0]
Ray
You got some smart guys that follow this post. I would doubt that any of them that have been down the track. Go through the traps in 6th. Most have probably set their bike up with taller than stock gearing. Hopefully some of those guys will chime in and help you out.
I am just clicking into 5th as I go through the traps on my 09 street glide. The other bright side to a 6th overall ratio below 3. Would be easier on clutch and you might gain 5-7 hp on your graph. Your 6th is more like stock 5th.
Your engine doesn't need all that mechanical leverage.
.
.
.
To all the smart guys cooler heat range works . Keep doing it your way and go slow. Stock v-rods are are cheap and work . I have been doing this for 10 years or better. No issues
What do you suggest then Fred? Can you be a little clearer? For example what heat range and when do you feel it's appropriate
Just as Fred mentioned. Test. To determine your best heat range requires testing a (new) plug in hard running condition and chopping the ignition. Pulling and looking at the ground strap for the anneal mark to be 50% across. If its more install a colder plug. If its less, a hotter one is in order. To make each test accurate a new plug has to be used each time.
Ray . 1:1 ratio 6 th gear in your case ,is your mph gear .
A lot of sucessful H/S and O/S guys run high gear from the 1/8 mile to the traps .
Not something I am ready to do yet . 8500-9000 rpms .
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 03:41:39 AM
Ray . 1:1 ratio 6 th gear in your case ,is your mph gear .
A lot of sucessful H/S and O/S guys run high gear from the 1/8 mile to the traps .
Not something I am ready to do yet . 8500-9000 rpms .
you can do that with a curve like this
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg.html)
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 04:11:16 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 03:41:39 AM
Ray . 1:1 ratio 6 th gear in your case ,is your mph gear .
A lot of sucessful H/S and O/S guys run high gear from the 1/8 mile to the traps .
Not something I am ready to do yet . 8500-9000 rpms .
you can do that with a curve like this
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg.html)
Is that NA? I'd love to see a b2 sheet from GMS, great shop you don't hear enough about IMO.
Quote from: fast freddy on September 16, 2015, 05:36:57 PM
To all the smart guys cooler heat range works . Keep doing it your way and go slow. Stock v-rods are are cheap and work . I have been doing this for 10 years or better. No issues
Quote from: kd on September 16, 2015, 07:09:34 PM
What do you suggest then Fred? Can you be a little clearer? For example what heat range and when do you feel it's appropriate
Quote from: gordonr on September 17, 2015, 02:26:23 AM
Just as Fred mentioned. Test. To determine your best heat range requires testing a (new) plug in hard running condition and chopping the ignition. Pulling and looking at the ground strap for the anneal mark to be 50% across. If its more install a colder plug. If its less, a hotter one is in order. To make each test accurate a new plug has to be used each time.
The only other post from Freddy that I could find about heat range was this.
Quote from: fast freddy on July 23, 2015, 08:30:01 PM
To help some of you out here, use the stock V-Rod plugs not SE just stock in any size engine you will notice a big difference. Cooler running and more power.
Rather a one size fixes all approach, nothing about testing.
For those of us that are trying to better understand this could someone post pics of three plugs, too hot, too cold, just right? Kind of a Goldylocks approach to heat ranges.
How does ignition timing play in getting the plug temp right?
Ray's thread is great because he has always show what works, what doesn't work, along with details of how and why.
Ray, how did you use thicker base gaskets and get to 0 deck? You cut the cylinders?
Quote from: build it on September 17, 2015, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 04:11:16 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 03:41:39 AM
Ray . 1:1 ratio 6 th gear in your case ,is your mph gear .
A lot of sucessful H/S and O/S guys run high gear from the 1/8 mile to the traps .
Not something I am ready to do yet . 8500-9000 rpms .
you can do that with a curve like this
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg.html)
Is that NA? I'd love to see a b2 sheet from GMS, great shop you don't hear enough about IMO.
Yes N/A B2 . It might be the early stages of ken millers conversion to EFI .
It could be Gregg's bike on a test . Not sure I just picked one I had .
Quote from: build it on September 17, 2015, 04:41:06 AM
Ray, how did you use thicker base gaskets and get to 0 deck? You cut the cylinders?
no...on my previous set up the pistons were actually above deck height a tad.
the thicker base gaskets raise the cylinders up...putting the pistons back down in their holes.
my new plug wires will be here today and I'll put a new set of NGK 8's in (a one step colder plug equal to the V-Rod plugs) and then I will do a plug check to see how it's doing. Yesterdays plug check showed the rear cylinder was firing much better and the plug was no longer sooty black. This was with one of my used NGK 8 plugs that I cleaned up with a wire brush. It did show much better results than what I have had lately with the all black sooty plug on the rear.
Jim...I thought the 3.354 gearing on my bike would be a good place to start. After it does make some passes I will have to sit down and see how it does going thru the traps and see what gear I'm actually in when it goes thru the traps. This will all be testing 101 to see what works and don't work for me. I know it's not going to be rocket ship like you guys in the bagger class...but I will collect the data I get...and go from there and make changes where needed.
Thanks for posting that GMS sheet. That is one impressive bike. :up:
Ray
It's a good place to start ray .might have to adjust your rev limiter so you can 60 ft good .
As far as heat ranges on plugs . I have moved the ring up and down the plug . I don't see any gains or losses as far as Hp .
It could make for a happier engine to stay in the middle of the range . At least it makes sense , and you have to settle somewhere .
Funny on the read of the plug with pump gas.. I run both my bagger and my truck at the track. Both are pump gas . The truck is running two guns.. So AFR is extremely important and plug reading gets to be the normal deal. Well setting it up on the motor with the new mods. I have seen the ring move around even with proper jetting.. I have found that with pump gas not being the same each time you can see it move.. so running a middle of the road plug is in my opinion a good start . I ran a plug that was a tad too cold and my ET showed that.. Stepped back up a heat range ran better then had slight ping pulled some timing and I went even faster. All int he tune .
Bagger is only running a a bottom 11 at this time truck is pulling 10.7 ish on the first kit.. should be able to see a 10.3 with both kits on line.. and some more tuning.. Hope to get my 10 sec patch from S&S this fall..
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 04:44:31 AM
Quote from: build it on September 17, 2015, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 04:11:16 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 17, 2015, 03:41:39 AM
Ray . 1:1 ratio 6 th gear in your case ,is your mph gear .
A lot of sucessful H/S and O/S guys run high gear from the 1/8 mile to the traps .
Not something I am ready to do yet . 8500-9000 rpms .
you can do that with a curve like this
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/gms%20dyno.jpg.html)
Is that NA? I'd love to see a b2 sheet from GMS, great shop you don't hear enough about IMO.
Yes N/A B2 . It might be the early stages of ken millers conversion to EFI .
It could be Gregg's bike on a test . Not sure I just picked one I had .
S&S Prostock head. N/A.
Agree, gear to click 5th at 1/8 mile, and use your 1:1 for your big mph out the back-
thanks Jim & Paul :up:
That's kind of what I was thinking too. If I can be in 5th gear at the 1/8...and shift into 6th before the traps it would give me my best mph speeds.
I know the B/B calculator only gives a snap shot of what you might need...but I played around with it and this seemed like a good starting point for my gearing.
I know NHRA top fuel and funny cars run a mandated 3.20 gear ratio...and you know how fast them things are running.
Ray
You will have some tire growth as well as the speeds get that high.. try adding 1/8- 1/4 to the roll out just to see how it effects the gearing. Radial are not to grow ...much that is :teeth:
I plan on trying the primo sprocket as well
Steve...they only thing I did notice with the Primo 32 tooth comp sprocket was in the beginning after installing it with the new tensioner shoe I had a faint whine coming from the primary for probably the first couple hundred miles.
That whine is pretty much gone now. I think what I was hearing was the chain bedding into the shoe.
Other than that...I have zero complaints with the Primo Game Changer.
Ray
QuoteYes N/A B2 . It might be the early stages of ken millers conversion to EFI .
It could be Gregg's bike on a test . Not sure I just picked one I had .
S&S Prostock head. N/A.
Agree, gear to click 5th at 1/8 mile, and use your 1:1 for your big mph out the back-
You are correct pro stock heads . Brain fart :embarrassed:
Ray the bar has been raised once again.
Paul Vicory ran a 9.98 last night at Kikare .
It has had been a tough year for Paul . His hard work has paid off though .
Bad Azz 117 ci bagger
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/time%20sheets/C7D5C9DD-962B-48B5-B519-3EFEB01F5863.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/time%20sheets/C7D5C9DD-962B-48B5-B519-3EFEB01F5863.jpg.html)
damn Jim...Paul has that thing flyin! :up:
You were right when you said someone in the bagger class was going to get into the 9's very soon.
That time is apparently now.
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 18, 2015, 06:58:18 AM
QuoteYes N/A B2 . It might be the early stages of ken millers conversion to EFI .
It could be Gregg's bike on a test . Not sure I just picked one I had .
S&S Prostock head. N/A.
Agree, gear to click 5th at 1/8 mile, and use your 1:1 for your big mph out the back-
You are correct pro stock heads . Brain fart :embarrassed:
All good-
Ken Miller is a friend and has helped me with a few parts, etc, over the years. He started out buying an older Kosman frame SP bike, running low mid-low 9's, and kept working it and working it and now, combined with that Bad Ass GMS FI, he is well into the 8's and a top competitor. Talent, determination, persistence, money and a good team usually equals great results. He and his bike are also on the cover of the S&S Race Catalog this year-well deserved.
BTW, someone asked me what is the difference between B2's and Pro Stock heads...I said about 5 grand....lol...
Quote from: pwmorris on September 18, 2015, 08:31:46 AM
Quote from: strokerjlk on September 18, 2015, 06:58:18 AM
QuoteYes N/A B2 . It might be the early stages of ken millers conversion to EFI .
It could be Gregg's bike on a test . Not sure I just picked one I had .
S&S Prostock head. N/A.
Agree, gear to click 5th at 1/8 mile, and use your 1:1 for your big mph out the back-
You are correct pro stock heads . Brain fart :embarrassed:
All good-
Ken Miller is a friend and has helped me with a few parts, etc, over the years. He started out buying an older Kosman frame SP bike, running low mid-low 9's, and kept working it and working it and now, combined with that Bad Ass GMS FI, he is well into the 8's and a top competitor. Talent, determination, persistence, money and a good team usually equals great results. He and his bike are also on the cover of the S&S Race Catalog this year-well deserved.
BTW, someone asked me what is the difference between B2's and Pro Stock heads...I said about 5 grand....lol...
LOL 5 grand about sums it up .
Ken also just won the Canadian fastest street bike challenge . Sponsored in part by S&S
Ran a 8.56 and there is more .hope to see him going after the 8.52 record next weekend , if I am able to make the race .
I have found that when I flog hard on this thing now I have the tendency to have a hard time staying firmly planted in the seat. My butt wants to slide up on the back of the seat. I picked my brain for days thinking of a solution for it and I came up with making this support out of an old low rider sissy bar bracket and pad I had laying around. It took a little work cutting and bending the support bracket to get it formed to the shape of the rear fender...but I finally got it. I also made a support coming off the sissy bar back to the rear fender bolt. I drilled and tapped the sissy bar for mounting the support to it.
Now I just have to get the bike up on the lift and either remove the shocks so hopefully I can jack the bike up high enough to get under the fender so I can remove the bracket that the seat bolts to...or just go ahead and pull the rear wheel back off. I need to make the studs/bolts that go thru the fender that the rear of the seat bolts to a 1/4" longer for the extra thickness of adding the sissy bar bracket.
I'm hoping this will keep my butt planted to where it needs to be.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Ray
That should get the job done. :up:
Looks good Ray. Pretty slick work.
Zach
Nice :up:
Quote from: gordonr on September 17, 2015, 02:26:23 AM
Just as Fred mentioned. Test. To determine your best heat range requires testing a (new) plug in hard running condition and chopping the ignition. Pulling and looking at the ground strap for the anneal mark to be 50% across. If its more install a colder plug. If its less, a hotter one is in order. To make each test accurate a new plug has to be used each time.
Gordon, I was always let to believe that the ground strap tells you more about the combustion chamber temps
rather than the plug temp. Ground straps are the same regardless of heat range. The center insulator OTOH, is
what makes a plug colder or hotter by its length. Shorter insulator = colder heat range.
Examining the color on the center electrode (often difficult with fuels of today) gives you a better indication of
how hot the plug is getting.
Am I misinformed?
Quote from: No Cents on September 29, 2015, 07:45:32 AM
I have found that when I flog hard on this thing now I have the tendency to have a hard time staying firmly planted in the seat. My butt wants to slide up on the back of the seat. I picked my brain for days thinking of a solution for it and I came up with making this support out of an old low rider sissy bar bracket and pad I had laying around. It took a little work cutting and bending the support bracket to get it formed to the shape of the rear fender...but I finally got it. I also made a support coming off the sissy bar back to the rear fender bolt. I drilled and tapped the sissy bar for mounting the support to it.
Now I just have to get the bike up on the lift and either remove the shocks so hopefully I can jack the bike up high enough to get under the fender so I can remove the bracket that the seat bolts to...or just go ahead and pull the rear wheel back off. I need to make the studs/bolts that go thru the fender that the rear of the seat bolts to a 1/4" longer for the extra thickness of adding the sissy bar bracket.
I'm hoping this will keep my butt planted to where it needs to be.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Ray
when is that beast going to hit the track
I would love to get a time slip this year so I can finally join the crowd of those that have went for their first time this year. I'm tired of talking the talk...and not walking the walk. It's been a long process for me to get all the bugs worked out of my bike and to get it ready to go so I was able to comply with the rules.
After the past few years of working on this thing...I think it's finally time to see what it will do. It won't be setting any records...but at least I will be getting my cherry busted and getting the experience of launching it off the line for the first time in front of a tree. I know it will some take time to master coming off the line and getting the 60' times down...but hopefully I will learn what it takes to make myself and the bike better.
I promise I will post the time slip no matter how bad it is.
Ray
The track is fun. Nothing like the street..
Quote from: MCE on September 29, 2015, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gordonr on September 17, 2015, 02:26:23 AM
Just as Fred mentioned. Test. To determine your best heat range requires testing a (new) plug in hard running condition and chopping the ignition. Pulling and looking at the ground strap for the anneal mark to be 50% across. If its more install a colder plug. If its less, a hotter one is in order. To make each test accurate a new plug has to be used each time.
Gordon, I was always let to believe that the ground strap tells you more about the combustion chamber temps
rather than the plug temp. Ground straps are the same regardless of heat range. The center insulator OTOH, is
what makes a plug colder or hotter by its length. Shorter insulator = colder heat range.
Examining the color on the center electrode (often difficult with fuels of today) gives you a better indication of
how hot the plug is getting.
Am I misinformed? Not Gorden, but no that is why the ignition timing is indicated from ground strap.That is also why you do not read AFR from ground strap.But the plugs base,the undercut portion after the threads end can be used to help read fuel.Mike Canter always had a good article on this. As you already know there are always times when you can be thrown off base.Alcohol is always fun to read. http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/reading-spark-plugs.html (http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/reading-spark-plugs.html)
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 29, 2015, 12:31:54 PM
The track is fun. Nothing like the street..
Back when we took first timers to the track it did not matter if they were 16 or 60 we would put them on a 883 with no tach and tell them to just concentrate on learning to leave when the lights come down.
It kept them from obsessing on what their time would be, what everyone was going to think, and if they were going to finish 1st. They just learned to run down the track and have a ball beating that poor little 883 and they were hooked on the thrill of just going down the track.
Double :up:
Local couple of guys race buell Blasts long swing arms cammed up higher comp ratio.. Not very fast but DEADLY in their bracket
Yep they will make you consistent.
No tach 883 leave by ear and run 13.0 about 100mph all day long. The only no computer bracket machine that was better was some kid with his mother's station wagon that would show up to test and tune every Wednesday night. The poor guys with fast machines had to watch him run half way down the track before they got the green light.
Added
Sorry for the high jack Ray you just get us going.
Can't wait to hear of your day at the track :up:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on September 29, 2015, 12:51:01 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 29, 2015, 12:31:54 PM
The track is fun. Nothing like the street..
Back when we took first timers to the track it did not matter if they were 16 or 60 we would put them on a 883 with no tach and tell them to just concentrate on learning to leave when the lights come down.
It kept them from obsessing on what their time would be, what everyone was going to think, and if they were going to finish 1st. They just learned to run down the track and have a ball beating that poor little 883 and they were hooked on the thrill of just going down the track.
Eric...I'm a hell of a lot closer to that age of 60...than 16. :hyst:
I'm just looking to have fun too. It's something I can cross off my bucket list.
Ray
Looking forward to your day at the track Ray ! Just go A to B , fast will come with time . Like Steve said it's nothing like the street . You will be 8-up first pass guaranteed :chop:
Quote from: No Cents on September 29, 2015, 12:30:19 PM
I would love to get a time slip this year so I can finally join the crowd of those that have went for their first time this year. I'm tired of talking the talk...and not walking the walk. It's been a long process for me to get all the bugs worked out of my bike and to get it ready to go so I was able to comply with the rules.
After the past few years of working on this thing...I think it's finally time to see what it will do. It won't be setting any records...but at least I will be getting my cherry busted and getting the experience of launching it off the line for the first time in front of a tree. I know it will some take time to master coming off the line and getting the 60' times down...but hopefully I will learn what it takes to make myself and the bike better.
I promise I will post the time slip no matter how bad it is.
Ray
Ray,
What did you come up with for the Kill Switch / Lanyard ?? (sorry if I missed it in an earlier post)
Good on 'ya for setting a course and sticking to it! I'm sure you're going to have a blast!
I ended up drilling a hole thru the off/on switch and putting a cotter pin thru it with a tether attached to it.
It works great and as long as it passes thru tech...I'll go with it.
[attach=0]
Ray
I had to make a little modification to the bracket with the two studs that goes thru the fender for mounting the rear of the seat down. I knocked the factory studs out and got two 1/4" longer 1/4- 20 bolts and ground the heads down so they were the same thickness as the original studs were and then I welded them in place to the bracket so they wouldn't spin when tightening the nuts down for the seat.
The paint was dry on my brackets so I assembled everything and got the backrest done and mounted.
I ran it around the block and flogged on it pretty hard...and my butt stayed planted right where it needs to be with the addition of this backrest. I should of made one of these things a long time ago. :doh:
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[attach=1]
Ray
It was raining here this morning so I decided to pull my comp apart and take a peek.
This SE comp has around 10,000 miles on it. The sprocket is the new 32 tooth Primo Game Changer and it has close to 1,000 miles on it.
Needless to say I'm head over heels elated with what I'm seeing.
The CompensaVer is definitely doing it's job!!! :up: ...to damn near perfection I would say beings it's up against a mill with over 160hp. :smile:
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[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Ray
Ray,
Where 'ya 'been??
Workin' on that track readiness???
just workin and ridin as much as I can before it turns cold here.
In the next month or so it will go back up the lift and I'm going to make a few changes and build a few more exhausts to test.
Ray
We need a "like" button for posts.....just saying
Quote from: N-gin on November 04, 2015, 05:28:14 PM
We need a "like" button for posts.....just saying
First of all, this is not Facebook, thank god.
Second, we have a "like" button: :up:
Just bustin' chops, N-gin. :wink:
:up: lol I like it.
:up:
Yep works good
:SM:
somehow the bike made it up on the lift after work today. :slap:
It's time for some changes.
[attach=0]
Ray
:wtf:
[attach=0]
:scratch:
Man, just what I like as the weather gets colder, "Good reading material" ! Looking forward to it!
Well Ray don't keep us guessing,more head work?a bigger cam and some new pipes. :up: :up:
:smileo: all the above I think.
Were you just looking for something to eat your dinner off of? Those pistons look cleaner than many plates!
I already had cleaned the tops of the pistons off when I took that picture. They didn't look near that good when I pulled the heads.
This tear down was done for a reason and after seeing what I did it confirmed my suspicions...and I'll leave it at that.
The heads are going to be sent back to Fred for a good checking over and a clean up.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 19, 2015, 02:29:20 AM
This tear down was done for a reason and after seeing what I did it confirmed my suspicions...and I'll leave it at that.
The heads are going to be sent back to Fred for a good checking over and a clean up.
Ray
It's not nice to tease.
:pop:
Man, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.
At it's current status, it's more of a soap opera.... :hyst:
Come on Ray spill it what do you have brewing over there in that barn :fish:
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 19, 2015, 07:55:43 AM
Man, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.
At it's current status, it's more of a soap opera.... :hyst:
You are right.
I shouldn't have posted a thing about what I got going on with my bike...my bad.
It won't happen again.
Ray
Now now Ray, some of us enjoy the read between the rides. :pop:
:up: :agree:
By far the most informative build thread I've ever read, keep it comin'...
Guide(s)???
I can only speak for myself but I look forward to the updates in this thread.
Quote from: HighLiner on November 19, 2015, 09:48:06 AM
I can only speak for myself but I look forward to the updates in this thread.
Hell yeah!
Quote from: No Cents on November 19, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 19, 2015, 07:55:43 AM
Man, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.
At it's current status, it's more of a soap opera.... :hyst:
You are right.
I shouldn't have posted a thing about what I got going on with my bike...my bad.
It won't happen again.
Ray
:hyst: :hug: :hyst:
It is a bit like sands through the hourglass
the never ending story of a man's passion with HD and a desire to push the boundaries
a few more gremlins come into play with builds that push the boundaries
All here appreciate the time you take to document and share your experiences
I have learned a lot from this thread , and the previous one detailing the 117'er
Keep it coming Ray
:up:
I personally LOVE these updates myself..... :pop:
~John
I'm another who loves to read up on the latest mods, changes, up and downs of this already screamin 124!!! Please don't disappoint us, but when your ready to spill the beans, I'll be waiting to catch up.
Buffalo
Quote from: No Cents on November 19, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 19, 2015, 07:55:43 AM
Man, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.
At it's current status, it's more of a soap opera.... :hyst:
You are right.
I shouldn't have posted a thing about what I got going on with my bike...my bad.
It won't happen again.
Ray
Ray you have over 300,000 loyal viewers and as the saying goes "there is at least one in every crowd"
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2015, 05:06:44 PM
Quote from: No Cents on November 19, 2015, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 19, 2015, 07:55:43 AM
Man, this thread has taken on a life of it's own.
At it's current status, it's more of a soap opera.... :hyst:
You are right.
I shouldn't have posted a thing about what I got going on with my bike...my bad.
It won't happen again.
Ray
Ray you have over 300,000 loyal viewers and as the saying goes "there is at least one in every crowd"
:up: :up:
Ray, we hang on your every word, and it's just hard for us to be patient, that's all. Keep up the good work, and keep helping people, and talk about what you are doing with your build when you are ready too! We will all hang in there and wait with baited breath.
Your friend,
-A-
If it was You Tube with this many hits it would fund your next project
Double Thumbs up from Down Under
I always lern something from this thread. Waiting for what that will be next.
Ray keep up the great work don't be discouraged buy words on a screen because they can be misunderstood.
I have the points spread in Ray is going to make that bad ass engine of his make more power than his neighbors 143. The point spread is 7 points. (I don't gamble so I hope I said that gambling analogy correctly)
:hug: :fish: :chop: :beer:
Are you betting Ray's will make 7 more HP than GHs' 143?
Now that's some funny sh t right there :hyst:
Ray I got the parts for you ready to go :wink: Just give me a ring when you need these .. :up:
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 20, 2015, 07:46:55 AM
Are you betting Ray's will make 7 more HP than GHs' 143?
Just a guess I have no inside info. :wink:
I really like your "never ending reach for more" 8UP attitude. I just rewatched "The World's Fastest Indian" and your thread her kind of reminds me of Burt Munro's always searching for the "POWER".
Maybe we should consider you the modern version of Burt LOL. Can't wait to see the next phase and where it takes you. Buffalo
Quote from: Buffalo on November 20, 2015, 09:01:02 AM
"The World's Fastest Indian"
Awesome flick indeed! Keep it coming Ray......working on a 124 as we speak. Thanks
RAY are you going to post up more pics?? that rear cylinder looks like it has a ring issue?? but maybe just the angle of photo.. Looks to be golden like its not sealing well..
Quote from: Buffalo on November 20, 2015, 09:01:02 AM
I really like your "never ending reach for more" 8UP attitude. I just rewatched "The World's Fastest Indian" and your thread her kind of reminds me of Burt Munro's always searching for the "POWER".
Maybe we should consider you the modern version of Burt LOL. Can't wait to see the next phase and where it takes you. Buffalo
I thought this same thing awhile back.......... :hyst: You Go Ray we all have your back... :wink:
A soap show could never compete with this thread even if it had PORN STARS.
Ray, hurry up and get back here. :unsure: All of these other guys are taking over your thread. :slap: We like being involved in your build and winter's here. :banghead:
I bet Ray can get his 124 equal to 143 power levels. I think it can be done. Naturally aspirated of course and with out NOS. well maybe 50 Hp.
NOS shot would help and embarrass his neighbor
Quote from: John/1 on November 20, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
A soap show could never compete with this thread even if it had PORN STARS.
Dude, you need to get out more..... :scratch:
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 21, 2015, 05:57:55 AM
Quote from: John/1 on November 20, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
A soap show could never compete with this thread even if it had PORN STARS.
Dude, you need to get out more..... :scratch:
[/quote
I think it more like the reality show Alaskan Bush people the brown family :hyst: :slap:
Quote from: timtoolman on November 21, 2015, 05:30:01 AM
I bet Ray can get his 124 equal to 143 power levels. I think it can be done. Naturally aspirated of course and with out NOS. well maybe 50 Hp.
NOS shot would help and embarrass his neighbor
:idea: Now why don't I start a rumor while Ray isn't here. :fish: :hyst: :hyst: I'll qualify this by saying Ray and I have never discussed this. :smiled: If you are familiar with this thread though you will know Ray has the formula for this bike and knows how to get the Duracell to this level. :koolaid: Ol' neighbor Mr. Groundhog may be hearing sounds like this :wtf: coming from Ray's barn by spring.
There you go Ray. I'll light the fire. See if you can put it out. :potstir:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtynTZSMZXM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtynTZSMZXM)
Quote from: timtoolman on November 21, 2015, 06:30:27 AM
Quote from: Nowhereman on November 21, 2015, 05:57:55 AM
Quote from: John/1 on November 20, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
A soap show could never compete with this thread even if it had PORN STARS.
Dude, you need to get out more..... :scratch:
[/quote
I think it more like the reality show Alaskan Bush people the brown family :hyst: :slap:
If ya don't like it don't read it, and keep the peanut gallery comments to yourself, lots of us following this thread learning away. This has been one of the most educational threads in 10 years plus I have been on this form. So Ray please just keep posting up the information ignore the peanut gallery. Bob
It's not a bad thing
Relax
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
I got my ball hone in the mail yesterday...so I put it to good use this morning before the madness starts at my house today. It's always a full house here on Thanksgiving.
It might be kind of hard to see with the poor lighting I have out in the barn...but I'm very happy with the way the cylinders turned out.
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Ray
Looks good
Looks great from where I'm sitting Ray,Keep it coming,what are we having for after din din ? A big fatty......... :hyst: Just messin with Ya. Take care Ray!
Mike...no hog legs on the menu today. :hyst:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on November 26, 2015, 08:03:49 AM
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
I got my ball hone in the mail yesterday...so I put it to good use this morning before the madness starts at my house today. It's always a full house here on Thanksgiving.
It might be kind of hard to see with the poor lighting I have out in the barn...but I'm very happy with the way the cylinders turned out.
[attach=0]
Ray
Any pictures of the piston skirts? Or are they in perfect shape and you are just going to re ring? Hard to see in the pic for cross hatch.. 45* is the norm
Steve...I've got what looks close to a nice 45* cross hatch going...it's just hard to see with my crappy cell phone picture and the poor overhead lighting in the barn. The piston skirts showed a little wear...but nothing that concerned me enough to not re-use them again. I ordered a set of new rings from Total Seal yesterday...and they should be here next week.
The heads are boxed up and headed back to Fred's tomorrow so he can inspect them and he said he wanted to put in a different intake valve that he has found that works better than the original ones he installed. He told me to expect the intakes to flow at least 400 cfm's when they return. He said he would include a flow sheet with them when he sends them back this time.
I was debating hard on trying a 3.0" Rush Wrath...but I think I'm going to stick with my Burns pipe for now. Jim seemed to think I might see a little gain with the Wrath below 3500 rpm's...but he didn't think it would do as well thru the middle and up top as my Burns pipe.
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Ray
That's a great way to spend a Thanksgiving morning! Have a great day with the family.
Like everyone else here, looking forward to seeing your results.
Quote from: IRONMIKE113 on November 26, 2015, 08:25:55 AM
Looks great from where I'm sitting Ray,Keep it coming,what are we having for after din din ? A big fatty......... :hyst: Just messin with Ya. Take care Ray!
Nope the only thing Ray smokes these days are rear tires and winstons,but the fatties are alive and well just a couple miles away :hyst:
so true...the random pee test at work for my CDL is the only thing stopping me from joining you. :hyst:
I can't afford to get fired when I'm sooooo close to retiring.
Ray
With out testing the wrath on your build hard to say.. But I have run it and man it worked extremely well across the entire curve.. 3.0 collector and 3.0 baffle.. Being that the baffle is only like 50 bucks maybe try a 2.50 as well. I may do some testing with the 3.0 pipe this winter with all three baffles on my 124 just to see how the curve will shift . Its too loud for me to use on it every day but it sure does sound good..
Thought you where going to run the E series' slip on unit??
Steve...I'm still kicking the idea around about trying a 3.0" Wrath. I think I would like the sound of it if it sounds similar to my old Zilla pipe did. I loved that raspy Nascar sound that my Zilla had. I know I would have trouble with the E-Zilla beings it's a tunable pipe. If I had the means close by me to mess with tuning it...it would be another nice option...but I don't have that luxury of a competent tuner close by and as much as I like to change things up...I don't think it would be a good option for me.
I do know a black 3.0" Wrath would probably make more horsepower...just because the one I'd get would have to be black. :hyst:
I read where Max said the black pipes make more power. :unsure:
Ray
Ray. What problems do you think you'd have with the e zilla? I've been kicking that around on mine.
I did try a supertrapp muffler on the 117 I had. Much to my surprise, the HP was close to the same as the zilla muffler but the TQ suffered.
I know these tunable mufflers take some dyno time to get them dialed in properly for the engine.
I just don't have anyone near me to spin it on the dyno if I was to want to change something. For me it would take an all day trip to take it back to Jim's...then the another return trip to pick it back up. It would be way too costly for me.
I did play with a Supertrapp muffler a few years ago on my Zilla head pipe...and I never did quite get it to my likings. No matter what configuration of disc's and end caps I tried it didn't seem to make the power of the Zilla muffler. Of course this was with my butt dyno...with no actual dyno to prove anything with. I ended up calling no joy and I put the Zilla muffler back on.
Ray
I remember you trying the 5" ST.
That's what happened to me. I tried the 4" version of the same muffler 24 discs and open cap. Much quieter than the zilla and I could live with the sound. Took it to Jim for results and after a week or 2 I couldn't live with the TQ loss.
I sent Fred my heads yesterday for a close inspection and he said he wanted to do a little more lovin to them while he had them.
It rained here all day and I already have all my parts cleaned and placed in zip lock baggies ready to go for when my new rings show up next week. The CR651 cams are back in the cam plate and ready to go. I was bored with nothing to do so I ended up painting my cam gears today with some hi-temp engine paint. I think it will look pretty cool inside the window of the cam cover.
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Ray
Nice job Ray, that looks great.
~John
Looks like a cool touch. I like it
thanks men! :up:
as you can tell...I was bored. :hyst:
Ray
Michael Angelo did some of his best work when he was bored! Cool touch Ray.
I think if you painted it like on of those psychedelic swirls it is good for 15hp
one tool I don't have in my arsenal is a leak down tester. I figured with me re-ringing my pistons I should do a leak down test to make sure everything is up to snuff when the engine is back together. I want this baby sealed up good and tight.
So...today I made me a leak down tester after watching a guy make one in a you tube video. What took some time was to let the JB Weld set up in the end of one of the 2" long pieces of steel pipe so I was able to drill a #60 size drill bit thru it for making the dampener valve. I still have to pick me up a quick disconnect fitting for the one end of the leak down tool that will fit my compression checker spark plug hose.
[attach=0]
Ray
Very nicely done. Curious why you went with 200psi gauges?
I want an exact 100psi reading on the 1st gauge when I do the leak down test. My options were either 100psi or 200psi gauges. I figured the 200psi gauge would show me if I was over 100psi on the 1st gauge...so I could back it down. If I pegged the 1st gauge and it only read 100psi...I really wouldn't know exactly what the pressure was. So I went with the 200psi gauges.
Ray
Gotcha. I find my 150psi gauge to be a little bit of pain to see the fractional values. Would be nice to find 110/120 gauges.
Are you using the gapless Total Seal rings? If so, they typically seal real well if everything else is in order. I run them in my 97" shovel and am happy with them.
Joel 2001 FLHT
All the aircraft engine measurements that I have seen use 80psi ( for what it's worth ).
Quote from: No Cents on November 29, 2015, 06:35:59 PM
I want an exact 100psi reading on the 1st gauge when I do the leak down test. My options were either 100psi or 200psi gauges. I figured the 200psi gauge would show me if I was over 100psi on the 1st gauge...so I could back it down. If I pegged the 1st gauge and it only read 100psi...I really wouldn't know exactly what the pressure was. So I went with the 200psi gauges.
Ray
Sort of difficult to peg the first gauge. The regulator can easily back the pressure off and then precisely creep back to the 100b mark. One one hand the resolution of a large 100b gauge would be easier to differentiate, but then the 100b gauge may have a larger margin of error at its extreme limits.
I figured the "attention whore's 124" would let you guys that are interested know where the bike stands.
I've got the new Total Seal rings gaped and the cylinders washed up squeaky clean and ready to go. It looks like tomorrow the assembly of the new piston rings onto the pistons and the cylinders slid back on will be taking place.
I'll then be able to button up the cam chest after that. I have everything else cleaned and ready to go for when the heads show back up from Fred's.
I just might be able to get this thing fired back up here in the next few weeks. It should be interesting.
Ray
:up:
:up:
:pop:
it was a good morning. It went back together smooth as silk. For once it didn't fight me.
I've gone as far as I can go until the heads arrive.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 04, 2015, 05:08:34 PM
I figured the "attention whore's 124" would let you guys that are interested know where the bike stands.
I've got the new Total Seal rings gaped and the cylinders washed up squeaky clean and ready to go. It looks like tomorrow the assembly of the new piston rings onto the pistons and the cylinders slid back on will be taking place.
I'll then be able to button up the cam chest after that. I have everything else cleaned and ready to go for when the heads show back up from Fred's.
I just might be able to get this thing fired back up here in the next few weeks. It should be interesting.
Ray
Ray, is this engine using gap less rings from Total Seal?
no gapless rings Ed...I had to file them to gap them.
Ray
Their gapless rings still have to have their ends filed to set the gap. Couple different ways it is done, usually the second ring but sometimes its done to the first ring. The ring can be layered, with their end gaps offset, or there can be an inner and out ring with their end gaps offset. Sort of a controversial subject, like oil. Lots of expert opinions from guys that have never run them, etc. Just curious if you had ventured in.
Quote
Their gapless rings still have to have their ends filed to set the gap. Couple different ways it is done, usually the second ring but sometimes its done to the first ring. The ring can be layered, with their end gaps offset, or there can be an inner and out ring with their end gaps offset. Sort of a controversial subject, like oil. Lots of expert opinions from guys that have never run them, etc. Just curious if you had ventured in.
:agree:
I haven't fooled with TS rings since the '90's. I did not have a lot of luck with them in stock (aluminum/iron liner) cylinders but they were
excellent in Axtell ductile cylinders. In every case I set them up with the clearances and RA finish specified by TS. Never got around to trying them in S&S or Delkron cylinders, or Twin Cam cylinders. Not a bias against them, just haven't had a call for it. I'd be interested in hearing about others experiences in these cylinders.
I used them and had some of the best leak down numbers I've ever have measured. Never ran them for long term in the same build though. Also ran a"dikes" designed ring also. The argument against the gapless is that because there is no gap for gases to flush the ring pack out for fresh oil to return. Beats me though, I never had any problems with them.
Good stuff to hear in the "whore thread". So much great information to be had as we follow Ray. It could be any one of us that strives to make the most of our builds. The member vendors with their input is also well served.
:beer:
cheers to the whore thread.
yesterday after assembling the pistons and cylinders I decided to check my S&S three piece cranks run out without the cam plate bolted on to it to see if it had moved any after ripping on it this past summer & fall.
Much to my surprise it showed just a hair less than .0008" run out. That made me happy to see. :teeth:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2015, 05:17:06 AM
yesterday after assembling the pistons and cylinders I decided to check my S&S three piece cranks run out without the cam plate bolted on to it to see if it had moved any after ripping on it this past summer & fall.
Much to my surprise it showed just a hair less than .0008" run out. That made me happy to see. :teeth:
Ray
Without me paging back thru, how does those numbers compare to the initial install?
Yes that's good what was it last time you checked it
when Kirby assembled it...it had .0005" run out when brand new and set in the SE cases with the Timken conversion.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2015, 09:42:50 AM
when Kirby assembled it...it had .0005" run out when brand new and set in the SE cases with the Timken conversion.
Ray
Was the original .0005 your measurement or Kirby's? Just trying to figure if there is a slight slip or gauge difference.
Kirby's
How can you tell the different between .0005 and .0008? Must be a high end gauge. My guess is they did not move at all. Some guys have all the luck............ :wink:
Quote from: gabbyduffy on December 06, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
How can you tell the different between .0005 and .0008? Must be a high end gauge. My guess is they did not move at all. Some guys have all the luck............ :wink:
They can be had. I have a dial graduated in tenths. .005 looks pretty damn scary with that dial. :hyst:
Ron
well men...my suspicions were correct.
I talked to Fred today and he said my rear head has a crack in it. :banghead: It went from under the valve seat and went towards the plug hole.
The good news is Fred said he can weld it up and have the head annealed. He said it will be good as new after he is done with it.
The rear cylinder has plagued me all season long. That would seem to explain the spark plug issues I was having on the rear cylinder.
It will be interesting to see what this engine will do when it's actually healthy. I think it has been sick since the beginning.
Ray
Interesting finding! Am sure it will work out well. :up:
So is the thought the crack may not have been allowing the valve to fully seat? Obviously a crack is not good, but I'm just curious what issues would result from it. Would it create a loss of compression, lean condition, etc?
Glad you found it.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on December 06, 2015, 02:31:44 PM
well men...my suspicions were correct.
I talked to Fred today and he said my rear head has a crack in it. :banghead: It went from under the valve seat and went towards the plug hole.
The good news is Fred said he can weld it up and have the head annealed. He said it will be good as new after he is done with it.
The rear cylinder has plagued me all season long. That would seem to explain the spark plug issues I was having on the rear cylinder.
It will be interesting to see what this engine will do when it's actually healthy. I think it has been sick since the beginning.
Ray
it could of been all the above. :nix: I just know it never was right with the symptoms it kept showing me.
I know when it's fixed and re-tuned it should run better than before...at least I hope it does.
Ray
Would it be a flaw in the casting or how did it crack?
:wwp:
Nick...I don't know the answer to that. I have my speculations...but they are just that...speculations.
I didn't clean the heads off like I normally do when I pulled them off because Fred wanted to see them in the condition they were in when I pulled them...so I didn't see a crack myself...but I wasn't really looking for one.
When Fred called me the other day and said the rear head was cracked...it started to explain to me in my head why I was seeing the color of the rear spark plug that I was constantly seeing all season long. I could put a fresh plug in the rear head and within a weeks time it would turn totally black. I finally couldn't take it any longer knowing the riding season was close to it's end...so I had to pull it back down to see what I could find...and I'm glad I did. Both heads were sent off to be annealed this morning...so if the castings were soft...this should hopefully eliminate it.
It just makes me wonder what this thing will actually do if it ever gets healthy because I think I finally got the clutch slippage under control with the Bandit.
Even with the problems it had plaguing it all summer long...it was still by far the strongest this bike has ever been.
I will promise you this...I will get to the bottom of it...and I'll get this thing running right one of these days. :emoGroan:
Ray
Quote from: groundhog143 on December 07, 2015, 04:45:43 PM
:wwp:
sorry Rich Kid...but I have no picture of it. Fred welded it up yesterday and shipped both heads out this morning to be annealed.
Ray
I was just :potstir:
What are your thoughts on how a crack would be effecting the running/performance of the engine?
Eric...from what Fred told me this crack went from under the seat all the way to the spark plug hole.
I'm sure it had a major affect on it.
Fred said he welded it all up and he will drill and tap for a new spark plug hole when the heads come back from the annealing process.
Ray
:up: :up:
My concern would be how far or deep the crack went.
Did it crack through to the spring seat area, into a port? Hard to say without seeing it yourself.
I hope it all works out for ya Ray. It sucks that it happened but if you're like me, it makes me feel good when I find a problem.
mine too...but Fred assured me he has it handled.
At this point all I can do is hope for the best.
Ray
It happened a lot on the Evo's. I welded enough of them that I don't think you'll have any problems with yours. I never annealed them so you're one up on me there.
I had some heads annealed once. The head porter advised against it, thought it would be expensive, would distort the heads, etc. At the time I was pretty deep into a set of rare castings and couldn't really afford to flush the castings or all the work that had been done to them. It took a considerable amount of welding to fix them. Enough that the porter was worried about changing the temper of the heads. I went ahead and had them welded and then sent out to be rehardened back to T6. After that the seats and guides were way off from each other. The porter fixed them. In hind site, had the castings not been so rare (STD spread valve, oval port, BT) and had Baisley not already done so much work to them, I probably would have walked away from them and started over.
Evos crack there all the time. Just what happens when the hole is close to the seat ring. Pressure from the press fit and lack of support contribute. Annealing happens at 500-700degF
Annealing is a process to soften the metal. How will that be accomplished on this casting? At the end of this annealing what about heat treat? What is the purpose of annealing anyway. I have welded probably 25 sets of evo heads, new seats, and away they went. But I know how to weld and used a soft, relatively speaking, alloy. No comebacks. Then after this annealing what about powder coating again, that will be required. After all of this processing all press fit parts will need to be replaced, new fit established.
Metalurgists , Ron Rabos, mechanical engineers ??
Sure you want to go there?
Ray, going back to page 1 are these 110 heads? Was planning on using the stock 110 heads for the CVO build but thinking about using the S&S kit heads for other builds. Just wondering if there is extra beef in the S&S heads compared to the 110 heads to warrant going with S&S for the Road Glide. Thanks
these Buell heads are still running with a crack.it doesn't go deep and it only goes 1/4 mile at a time though.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/1250%20race%20bike/903C5397-95F3-45B7-A122-07DC52BE879E.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/1250%20race%20bike/903C5397-95F3-45B7-A122-07DC52BE879E.jpg.html)
Hmmmm, dimples in the quench deck have anything to do with the crack?
Quote from: kd on December 08, 2015, 08:49:32 AM
Hmmmm, dimples in the quench deck have anything to do with the crack?
Nitrous oxide
Quote from: HD Street Performance on December 08, 2015, 05:48:48 AM
Evos crack there all the time. Just what happens when the hole is close to the seat ring. Pressure from the press fit and lack of support contribute. Annealing happens at 500-700degF
Annealing is a process to soften the metal. How will that be accomplished on this casting? At the end of this annealing what about heat treat? What is the purpose of annealing anyway. I have welded probably 25 sets of evo heads, new seats, and away they went. But I know how to weld and used a soft, relatively speaking, alloy. No comebacks. Then after this annealing what about powder coating again, that will be required. After all of this processing all press fit parts will need to be replaced, new fit established.
Metalurgists , Ron Rabos, mechanical engineers ??
Sure you want to go there?
Me, I would not anneal it.
Too late but I would not anneal it either for that one repair. I'd replace the head before going through all that anneal/heat treat/ powder coat crap.
Ron
As far as I know, Ray's heads are stripped of all powdercoat already.
:pop:
I know nothing about the annealing process of how it works and what if any benefits it does. I only know that Fred has used the word "annealing" to me more than a few times. I'm sure he is well aware of what it does and the effects of it. He told me he only uses one certain guy in the country that he trusts to do it...and this guy has been doing it for a many moon. :nix:
...and yes HighLiner...I stripped the powder coating off my 110 heads. I run them in their natural silver color.
Ray
as far as the annealing process goes...
the heads on this 190hp Hemi Engineering bike were done by Fred...and the heads on it were annealed. :nix:
https://youtu.be/BtynTZSMZXM
Ray
Quote from: strokerjlk on December 08, 2015, 08:53:53 AM
Quote from: kd on December 08, 2015, 08:49:32 AM
Hmmmm, dimples in the quench deck have anything to do with the crack?
Nitrous oxide
I would say the dimples were from detonation and the detonation was from the nitrous.
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 04:59:14 PM
as far as the annealing process goes...
the heads on this 190hp Hemi Engineering bike were done by Fred...and the heads on it were annealed.
https://youtu.be/BtynTZSMZXM
Ray
:scratch:
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 04:52:36 PM
I know nothing about the annealing process of how it works and what if any benefits it does. I only know that Fred has used the word "annealing" to me more than a few times. I'm sure he is well aware of what it does and the effects of it. He told me he only uses one certain guy in the country that he trusts to do it...and this guy has been doing it for a many moon. :nix:
...and yes HighLiner...I stripped the powder coating off my 110 heads. I run them in their natural silver color.
Ray
Most quality aluminium heads, intakes, blocks and other castings under go some type of annealing and/or heat treating at the foundry. The correct process for welding and repairing them should include a repeat of the treatment. Any of the car or bike head guys I have used do this.
Some people get away without it and some just think they do. I know I have seen heads that were just welded and after time there has always been signs of metal movement.
Quote from: groundhog143 on December 08, 2015, 05:13:50 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 04:59:14 PM
as far as the annealing process goes...
the heads on this 190hp Hemi Engineering bike were done by Fred...and the heads on it were annealed.
https://youtu.be/BtynTZSMZXM
Ray
:scratch:
I'm confused with your :scratch:
what are you scratching your head for there Rich Kid?
Ray
I doubt a little welding will hurt them
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/ryans%20heads.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/ryans%20heads.jpg.html)
And you have never broken a stock belt until you do and never twisted a crank until it happens. As i said many do many things, it does not mean it is right or a better way does not exist.
How many times have you seen a screwdriver used for something other than driving screws.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 08, 2015, 05:27:27 PM
And you have never broken a stock belt until you do and never twisted a crank until it happens. As i said many do many things, it does not mean it is right or a better way does not exist.
How many times have you seen a screwdriver used for something other than driving screws.
its easy to sit back and arm chair. I would rather just do it. instead of talk about how it will or wont work.
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 04:59:14 PM
as far as the annealing process goes...
the heads on this 190hp Hemi Engineering bike were done by Fred...and the heads on it were annealed. :nix:
https://youtu.be/BtynTZSMZXM
Ray
Do your thing Ray........ :up: make'm believers.
I just bolt it together.
I leave the specialty work like the heads to the experts...because I don't have the knowledge they do in their field of expertise.
All's I can do is choose certain people to work their magic and place my trust in them.
I'm trusting in Fred that he knows what he's doing. He has worked on the heads for some serious big horsepower builds in his days.
I don't think his goal is to see my bike go backwards in the horsepower department...and mine either.
Ray
just to set the record straight. I e-mailed Fred last night and asked him about this annealing process he has mention to me numerous times.
His response was:
the heads are already annealed and the crack was welded up...and the heads were then sent out for a heat treating process.
I hope this clears the air up. Apparently I misunderstood him on the process that the heads are going thru.
Sorry for an confusion from my end.
Ray
After having a serious amount of welding done to my heads by Fred to get 400+cfm out a 2.180 valve they were sent off for the same process. Problems would arise by having soft spots around the head due to the welding. Poor head gasket sealing issues and pulled threads are possible by ignoring the re-hardening process.
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 05:21:16 PM
Quote from: groundhog143 on December 08, 2015, 05:13:50 PM
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 04:59:14 PM
as far as the annealing process goes...
the heads on this 190hp Hemi Engineering bike were done by Fred...and the heads on it were annealed.
https://youtu.be/BtynTZSMZXM
Ray
:scratch:
I'm confused with your :scratch:
what are you scratching your head for there Rich Kid?
Ray
. I was confused with the whole head issue,hopefully you'll get it together and make more power :koolaid:
Quote from: No Cents on December 08, 2015, 05:51:18 PM
I just bolt it together.
I leave the specialty work like the heads to the experts...because I don't have the knowledge they do in their field of expertise.
All's I can do is choose certain people to work their magic and place my trust in them.
I'm trusting in Fred that he knows what he's doing. He has worked on the heads for some serious big horsepower builds in his days.
I don't think his goal is to see my bike go backwards in the horsepower department...and mine either.
Ray
:up:
Smart-
Your heads will be fine, and if there was any issue making them good as new, or even better now, your head guy would have told you.
Have you decided if this is going to be a hot street bike, that can still do daily riding on pump, and maybe have some fun at the track once in a while,
Or are you focusing building a race bagger now?
Paul...I'm not bumping the compression up any so I guess we'll call it a rideable street build for now.
Fred did say the heads will be returned flowing more than they did before. :nix:
This build has never been right...so I got my fingers crossed this time.
Ray
Quote from: gordonr on December 09, 2015, 03:47:12 AM
After having a serious amount of welding done to my heads by Fred to get 400+cfm out a 2.180 valve they were sent off for the same process. Problems would arise by having soft spots around the head due to the welding. Poor head gasket sealing issues and pulled threads are possible by ignoring the re-hardening process.
:up:
Poor head gasket seal is one I have seen often. When intake ports are welded on, after time the head gasket surface directly below the port will move around. I have also seen the valve seats beat into the head because of the lack of heat treat after welding.
after having a few long conversations with Fred...we came to the conclusion to pull the CR651's and I put the S&S 635HO's in today for the 1st time.
Fred is setting the heads up for them with their larger .284" exhaust TDC lift. So the compression will be backed down a little to the 11.2- 11.3 ball park depending on the final cc's of the heads. The heads will be un-shrouded and a bigger intake valve will be installed. We both think this will be an angry combo.
With running these 635HO's I will be lowering my static compression...but with these cams my corrected compression will be higher than before. I'm still going to run 1.725 stilts on the intakes.
I personally can't wait to see how the 635HO's perform. I've been wanting to try them for a long time...I just never had the needed clearance for them.
Ray
:party:
I'm stoked that you're going with the 635's now. I think you're gonna see the best out you're build with that cam.
I hope so.
Fred seems to think the whole dyno curve should move to the left and it should show much higher numbers a lot sooner in the graph. The 635HO's seem to historically carry the torque curve out across the board rather flat after that initial burst from two grand. Fred thinks it will show an increase every where over the 640's that I had in it prior...especially with the bigger intake valves he is sticking in the heads. He says it should make more power than before...even with the drop in compression. :nix: I guess time will tell.
Ray
Has anyone run this set up in one of those Computer programs to see what it comes up with,or is this off the Charts for that to be done?
It would be instresting to see both cam's back to back once the heads are completed... :oops:
I know Ray it's just more money......... :emoGroan:
I think the 635's would work better at the track if you ever decide to take it for a trip down the 1320.
Quote from: wfolarry on December 13, 2015, 06:53:13 AM
I think the 635's would work better at the track if you ever decide to take it for a trip down the 1320.
this up coming spring (God willing) it will be doing just that Larry! :up:
I can't wait.
I shouldn't say this...but my goal next year is to get a 10 second patch...and before the end of the season maybe make enough improvements to get a 9 second patch. It's always nice to dream. :hyst:
Ray
The testing is always great but I can tell you first hand that even for me its a issue many times. The amount of time that is taken up for testing is huge, not to mention parts cost. I had 637 pulls ?? or very close to that on my 2009 SG. That was all testing from a 96 to 103 then 107 cams, ex t/b heads etc .. Some of that I was paid to do and some I was not..
Ray the copper top can get into the 9 area I say go for it . :up: :up:
Ray I'm going to start a Christmas tree light Fund for you ......... :hyst:
You get it Christmas Tree......... Practice practice practice .......... :wink:
I hear ya Mike! :hyst:
thanks also Steve! :up:
It's been my goal for a couple of years now to get this thing strip ready enough so I can have some fun with it...and not totally embarrass myself.
This thing has given me headaches and heartbreaks along the way. It seemed when I felt like I was getting close...one problem was just followed by the next. I hope with this last recent tear down and freshening up...it might meet the expectations of what I'm after for a street/strip ridden bike. If it turns out to be good and solid after the tune...it's just waiting for spring to roll around so I can start doing the 1320's.
My list of things to do to the bike is growing shorter and shorter. I still would like to get a Pingel electric shifter and a shift light...but that won't be stopping me from going racin. I will be getting the Zipper's Performance axle and chain adjusters after Christmas is over to replace the factory's stock cam axle to see if that takes the problem away that I'm still having with my chain losing tension after I hammer hard on it.
I think this is going to be a long winter for me because I know I'm close to finally seeing my goal happen.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2015, 06:59:54 AM
Quote from: wfolarry on December 13, 2015, 06:53:13 AM
I think the 635's would work better at the track if you ever decide to take it for a trip down the 1320.
this up coming spring (God willing) it will be doing just that Larry! :up:
I can't wait.
I shouldn't say this...but my goal next year is to get a 10 second patch...and before the end of the season maybe make enough improvements to get a 9 second patch. It's always nice to dream. :hyst:
Ray
I wood like to see ya set your sight higher than a patch or tee shirt. :chop:
baby steps for me Jim...I can't set my goals too high when I'm just getting my feet wet next year.
But I'll be giving it all I can.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2015, 11:34:54 AM
baby steps for me Jim...I can't set my goals too high when I'm just getting my feet wet next year.
But I'll be giving it all I can.
Ray
:up: ..... :beer:
Ray have you ever considers one of those aluminum swing arms? Ive seen photos on this site I think from BVDBOB and they look pretty sweet. Will the Zippers axle allow the use with a 30 tooth trans sprocket with the stock belt?
Patrick...if I want to run this bike in the AMRA bagger class I have to keep the stock swing arm. I have looked at the after market swing arms out there...and there are some very nice ones to be had.
The Zipper's axle and adjusters is for a chain drive set up...but I don't see why it couldn't work with a belt.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
Patrick...if I want to run this bike in the AMRA bagger class I have to keep the stock swing arm. I have looked at the after market swing arinums out there...and there are some very nice ones to be had.
The Zipper's axle and adjusters is for a chain drive set up...but I don't see why it couldn't work with a belt.
[attach=0]
Ray
I was talking with John at Zippers a week ago, they are developing one for belts now.
a better picture of how the Zipper's adjuster works.
[attach=0]
Ray
@ the end of the day this is a Bagger :sheep: i enjoy the endless effort you have put forth with this bike. The post and the read :up: you have switched head porters and have basically turned everything in another direction for this bike :scoot:
best of luck Ray! what are you after N/A :wtf:
Travis :beer: :beer: :beer:
I'm not chasing any dyno numbers...just trying to get it right.
Ray
When you get it right, everything will fall into place and the numbers will be there
that's exactly what I'm hoping happens.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 14, 2015, 02:32:39 AM
I'm not chasing any dyno numbers...just trying to get it right.
Ray
. :hyst:
Quote from: groundhog143 on December 14, 2015, 03:59:26 AM
Quote from: No Cents on December 14, 2015, 02:32:39 AM
I'm not chasing any dyno numbers...just trying to get it right.
Ray
. :hyst:
my numbers chasing days are over. :slap:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on December 13, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
Patrick...if I want to run this bike in the AMRA bagger class I have to keep the stock swing arm. I have looked at the after market swing arms out there...and there are some very nice ones to be had.
The Zipper's axle and adjusters is for a chain drive set up...but I don't see why it couldn't work with a belt.
[attach=0]
Ray
Just wondering if you ever took the time to check runout on your rear sprocket? ............. if its got a lot it will stretch the chain........... I've seen some pretty poor make sprockets!
yes I have checked it a few times...and everything is inline and running very true...even after readjusting after the chain gains slack.
My EK ZZZ 530 chain is not stretching either.
I've already ruled out that it's not the sprocket causing the chain to loosen. I honestly think it's the cam on the axle and the cam washer on the other side that is not holding properly and allowing axle movement under hard acceleration.
Hopefully the Zipper's axle and adjusters will lock it down and keep the chain in adjustment.
Ray
That sounds like your best bet than! ............ My bike has a 3/4" axle so when my chain looks loose I often just bent another axle :doh: ......... That's been my biggest chain problem! I'm thinking a 1" axle will be a good upgrade this winter?
Ray how about an update, there is no way you are setting there without working on something. Just give us a couple more pics if nothing new has arrived.
Personally, I think Ray should itemize the changes from each dyno run and overlay the before and after tuned runs between changes to show where he's going.. I have a clue as to where this is headed.
Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles... :bike:
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles... :bike:
So what's your point?
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 14, 2016, 12:18:49 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles... :bike:
So what's your point?
Point. Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles.
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 12:31:26 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 14, 2016, 12:18:49 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles... :bike:
So what's your point?
Point. Bike prolly has more Dyno miles than real road miles.
Ok, that's false got anything else?Trying to be funny or judgmental?
Just wondering why you would make a post like that. Ray clearly has two hobbies, building performance motorcycles, and Riding performance motorcycles
Eric...no new news...I'm still waiting on the heads.
My goal this winter was to address the suspension and so far I have added a set of custom valving Super Shox's to the rear while I have it up on the lift. This weekend I'm going to be putting in the Race Tech 1.0kg springs with their gold emulators using the yellow springs in the legs.
I hope to see the heads soon...Fred has had them for almost two months now.
Jaycee...I don't think there was a two day span this past summer or fall that the bike wasn't ridden. The only time it sat was if it was raining. I enjoy riding and I try to ride every day possible. No moss grows under my bike.
[attach=0]
Ray
You guys are too sensitive... :wink:
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 02:29:18 PM
You guys are too sensitive... :wink:
:hyst: nah Jaycee...that didn't bother me one bit.
Those that truly know me...know how much I ride.
Riding is the only thing that gives me peace, and keeps me sane.
Now please let this thread just die off!
I had no plans of ever adding to it because I'm not the "attention whore" that I have been accused of being.
I think I would be better off to keep things to myself, and not be so quick as I have been in the past to share on the open forum with what I've got going on.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 14, 2016, 02:27:49 PM
Eric...no new news...I'm still waiting on the heads.
My goal this winter was to address the suspension and so far I have added a set of custom valving Super Shox's to the rear while I have it up on the lift. This weekend I'm going to be putting in the Race Tech 1.0kg springs with their gold emulators using the yellow springs in the legs.
I hope to see the heads soon...Fred has had them for almost two months now.
Jaycee...I don't think there was a two day span this past summer or fall that the bike wasn't ridden. The only time it sat was if it was raining. I enjoy riding and I try to ride every day possible. No moss grows under my bike.
[attach=0]
Ray
Quality work takes time. Doing something new and doing it right takes even more time. I have no doubts that Fred is just being through so that this comes out the way it was intended.
I saw your other threads and the bike upgrades look like good improvements.
Keep it coming.
Ray, I have really enjoyed this build. Each time. Now, I know you want to start racing, and no racer ever gives up all his secrets. And I don't want you to stop giving info, but I understand if you do. Or, you could start giving out red herrings to the throw the competition off. They would not be able to figure out how you are so fast with an inferior build.
Looking forward to your next runs with your new heads!
Quote from: No Cents on January 14, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on January 14, 2016, 02:29:18 PM
You guys are too sensitive... :wink:
:hyst: nah Jaycee...that didn't bother me one bit.
Those that truly know me...know how much I ride.
Riding is the only thing that gives me peace, and keeps me sane.
Now please let this thread just die off!
I had no plans of ever adding to it because I'm not the "attention whore" that I have been accused of being.
I think I would be better off to keep things to myself, and not be so quick as I have been in the past to share on the open forum with what I've got going on.
Ray
Don't let it die Ray, its a great thread. I keep my posts to a minimum, I always learn more reading and listening than talking, and this thread is a wealth of info. I frequent a few a forums, mostly advrider, and there isn't near the amount of trolls here on HTT, it gets pretty rough on some of them. Dog showing and breeder forums are even worse, bike forums are really tame.
Ray you definitely have a gift of documenting what you do in a manner we can all understand.. you deserve an applause for that.. I understand your feelings relative to feedback on these forums.. wouldnt blame you a bit...
Quote from: Scooter_trash_1 on January 14, 2016, 04:23:55 PM
Ray you definitely have a gift of documenting what you do in a manner we can all understand.. you deserve an applause for that.. I understand your feelings relative to feedback on these forums.. wouldnt blame you a bit...
:up:
I don't comment too much on your 8 up altitude, but I am fascinated by the approach to your way to the ultimate bagger, for the street or track, you decide.
I check in every day to watch the progress, or not, and look to see the next steps. You are the master of the home build in my books.
I'd like to see you continue with progress reports on each step of the way to a 9 second bagger!! Buffalo
Quote from: No Cents on January 14, 2016, 02:27:49 PM
Eric...no new news...I'm still waiting on the heads.
My goal this winter was to address the suspension and so far I have added a set of custom valving Super Shox's to the rear while I have it up on the lift. This weekend I'm going to be putting in the Race Tech 1.0kg springs with their gold emulators using the yellow springs in the legs.
I hope to see the heads soon...Fred has had them for almost two months now.
Jaycee...I don't think there was a two day span this past summer or fall that the bike wasn't ridden. The only time it sat was if it was raining. I enjoy riding and I try to ride every day possible. No moss grows under my bike.
[attach=0]
Ray
I put them same riggins in my fork this spring, made me wonder why I didn't do it years ago.
Quote from: No Cents on January 14, 2016, 02:27:49 PM
This weekend I'm going to be putting in the Race Tech 1.0kg springs with their gold emulators using the yellow springs in the legs.
[attach=0]
Ray
:up:
Quote from: No Cents on January 14, 2016, 02:27:49 PM
Eric...no new news...I'm still waiting on the heads.
My goal this winter was to address the suspension and so far I have added a set of custom valving Super Shox's to the rear while I have it up on the lift. This weekend I'm going to be putting in the Race Tech 1.0kg springs with their gold emulators using the yellow springs in the legs.
I hope to see the heads soon...Fred has had them for almost two months now.
Jaycee...I don't think there was a two day span this past summer or fall that the bike wasn't ridden. The only time it sat was if it was raining. I enjoy riding and I try to ride every day possible. No moss grows under my bike.
[attach=0]
Ray
I went this route on my ultra and it would bottom out, changed it with the Traxxion Dynamics kit which uses the Racetech gold valve but their 1.3 spring and proprietary orifice tube mod. They set everything to your weight and riding style down to what weight oil to use. Huge difference. See were also paired with Bitubo coil over reservoir shocks for the rear. Smooth ride and sport bike like handling. The Bitubos are really nice too.
Ray what is the scoop on that sprocket, is it using a carrier so that the tooth count can be easily and cheaply changed and who makes them?
(http://i.imgur.com/GUxEXZj.png)
Gary...that would be my guess...but I'm not sure about the rear sprocket to be honest.
That picture I posted I was trying to show the Zipper's chain adjusters.
Their complete chain conversion kit comes with a tranny sprocket, rear sprocket, chain, and the axle adjusters with a different axle that fits inside the adjuster sliders...or they offer just the adjuster kit. Which is the adjuster sliders and an axle only.
Ray
What did you end up with for axle and adjusters?
I remember reading posts and seeing pics from you, did you get it finished?
Eric...I bought the Nord-Locks to try first. I won't know if they work or not until I get to ride the bike.
With winter being here now...it will probably be spring time before I know if they work.
If the Nord-Locks don't work...I will either try the Zipper's adjusters and axle, or maybe say the hell with it and spend the big bucks on a Trac Dynamics swing arm.
[attach=0]
Ray
This thread is great. I get so much heat from the wife and some friends that my bikes always apart, but its only for maybe over night and im riding the next day, I dont sleep much. Im glad to see im not the only one. My goal is to get a 10 second patch this year too with my 04 bagger and new 124, so things have to be perfect. I will take it apart every night if I have to to frach the goal. Unfortunately I think money might hold me back with suspension and clutches being so expensive but Im going to give it all I can and keep trying. As far as your swing arm issues, I had a local machine shop cut the stock swing arm ends off and set it up for the old style adjusters, Wasnt too expensive. I never liked the cam style set up, plus i had mine extended 2"s. Just a thought. Keep posting man.
The Race Tech stuff is gong in to my boingers also this year.
Other than that, I enjoy reading this technical soap opera. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on January 15, 2016, 03:52:40 AM
Eric...I bought the Nord-Locks to try first. I won't know if they work or not until I get to ride the bike.
With winter being here now...it will probably be spring time before I know if they work.
If the Nord-Locks don't work...I will either try the Zipper's adjusters and axle, or maybe say the hell with it and spend the big bucks on a Trac Dynamics swing arm.
[attach=0]
Ray
The Trac-Dynamics is sweeeet!
Bull :turd::where the hell are those Harley Davidson hypo heads :potstir:
Quote from: No Cents on November 18, 2015, 05:40:37 PM
somehow the bike made it up on the lift after work today. :slap:
It's time for some changes.
[attach=0]
Ray
. :pop:
I don't know. :nix:
I'm at the mercy of Fred.
I don't want to bother him with a bunch of questions and possibly piss him off.
Patience is key for me I guess...but Iam excited to get this thing bolted back together and tuned.
Ray
I would not call him either. You can not ride it until spring anyway, what if for every day he has them you get 1 more HP.
Anybody can go to a web site and get what everybody else has, all it takes is a credit card.
exactly my thoughts Eric.
I'm best off to leave Fred alone and let him work his magic.
I think he might be doing some more great work for me on the heads. This all started with him just wanting to check them over and give them a little freshening up,
So he thought I should run the S&S 635HO's and he would set them up for that cam. When we spoke a few weeks back and he told me he was having the valves coated...that surprised me. I had no clue he was even doing that.
I think Fred is going to great lengths to give me back a set of heads that will showcase his talents.
Ray
:agree:
I left Fred alone and kept my patience. He called me last night out of the blue and said my heads will be done in the next day or so. :baby:
He said he took my heads to the next level...and I can't wait to see them now. With the bigger intake valves he installed this time he had to do some more welding in the exhaust ports to keep the velocity up to keep up with the added flow he was getting out of the intakes.
He said my exhaust flow picked up 15% over where it was. He gave me a prediction of where he thinks it will land...and if it even gets close to what he thinks it will do...I will be extremely happy.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 03:42:30 AM
I left Fred alone and kept my patience. He called me last night out of the blue and said my heads will be done in the next day or so. :baby:
He said he took my heads to the next level...and I can't wait to see them now. With the bigger intake valves he installed this time he had to do some more welding in the exhaust ports to keep the velocity up to keep up with the added flow he was getting out of the intakes.
He said my exhaust flow picked up 15% over where it was. He gave me a prediction of where he thinks it will land...and if it even gets close to what he thinks it will do...I will be extremely happy.
Ray
:up:
What's the flow at?
I don't know the exact #'s.
Fred said last month he would send me flow sheets back with the heads this time...but that remains to be seen.
I know many head porters don't like to send flow sheets...they like to keep secrets.
Ray
:up: :up: Glad to hear he's getting yours finished. He's supposed to be really close on mine.
Quote from: cherryseeg2 on January 25, 2016, 06:37:56 AM
:up: :up: Glad to hear he's getting yours finished. He's supposed to be really close on mine.
Brandon...your pm box was full yesterday when I tried to send you a pm.
Ray
Good to hear Ray can't wait to see the results!!
John
Great news Ray can't wait to be there when we fire up the Duracell again.. :koolaid3:
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 06:48:15 AM
Quote from: cherryseeg2 on January 25, 2016, 06:37:56 AM
:up: :up: Glad to hear he's getting yours finished. He's supposed to be really close on mine.
Brandon...your pm box was full yesterday when I tried to send you a pm.
Ray
Good now. Didn't realize my subscription ran out.
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Since you're retired now tell him you'll drive down & pick them up. The ETA might improve. :wink:
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 05:45:54 AM
I don't know the exact #'s.
Fred said last month he would send me flow sheets back with the heads this time...but that remains to be seen.
I know many head porters don't like to send flow sheets...they like to keep secrets.
Ray
I send the sheets with my heads, 4 pages of specs.
Quote from: wfolarry on January 25, 2016, 10:31:00 AM
Since you're retired now tell him you'll drive down & pick them up. The ETA might improve. :wink:
They have snow over that Direction,Ray don't like Snow......... :potstir:
If ya go Ray don't take the dually,dually's don't like snow :hyst:At least mine don't!! Even with snow tires.
John
Quote from: HD Street Performance on January 25, 2016, 10:39:48 AM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 05:45:54 AM
I don't know the exact #'s.
Fred said last month he would send me flow sheets back with the heads this time...but that remains to be seen.
I know many head porters don't like to send flow sheets...they like to keep secrets.
Ray
I send the sheets with my heads, 4 pages of specs.
I don't know why they don't all send the flow sheets with them? It's something you're paying for. If you ever decide to change cams it leaves you guessing if another cam will work with the heads.
Removed out of respect for Ray as it has nothing to do with him or his bike and request you do the same.
Ray's fine thread is not the place for this.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 25, 2016, 02:35:51 PM
Some "head porters" even give sheets and then a couple days later give corrected sheets.
:wink:
Oh yeah? Who?
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams.
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Ray
Quote from: wfolarry on January 25, 2016, 10:31:00 AM
Since you're retired now tell him you'll drive down & pick them up. The ETA might improve. :wink:
I'm in no hurry Larry...it's winter time here and the bike won't be ridden anytime soon with all the salt on the roads around here.
Ray
Ray, don't sweat the flow sheets. I know of a porter or two that don't send them either and I have no doubt they are some of the best in the business. I for one don't send someone a set of heads because I get a flow sheets in return, if I send somebody a set of heads its because I TRUST them and its for that reason alone.
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams
Ray Jason has a couple bikes in his shop right now with the tracs dynamics swing arms on the and I really like them the fit and finish is great you might want to look into them some more before you decide on the zippers. Nothing wrong with the zippers but I like the tracs
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams
Ray Jason has a couple bikes in his shop right now with the tracs dynamics swing arms on the and I really like them the fit and finish is great you might want to look into them some more before you decide on the zippers. Nothing wrong with the zippers but I like the tracs
Cool-
Could you post pictures of these bikes running Tracs?
Quote from: pwmorris on January 26, 2016, 06:20:16 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams
Ray Jason has a couple bikes in his shop right now with the tracs dynamics swing arms on the and I really like them the fit and finish is great you might want to look into them some more before you decide on the zippers. Nothing wrong with the zippers but I like the tracs
Cool-
Could you post pictures of these bikes running Tracs?
I dont know they are bike he is building and it's not my place. I am thinking about ordering one for my dyna build I am gearing up for now that will be a while out but will post it if I do.
thanks Nick! :up:
Later on this year I just might have to end up going with the Trac's unit.
It does look like an excellent high quality product.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on January 27, 2016, 02:16:46 AM
thanks Nick! :up:
Later on this year I just might have to end up going with the Trac's unit.
It does look like an excellent high quality product.
Ray
I like the roaring toyz swingarm myself. They also have axle covers that will hide the axle bolt.
There are a lot of companies that do swingarm. Broks, JMC, Metmachex, just to name a couple.
What Pushing you toward TracDynamics?
No discredit to any swingarm. Just want to know why you choose one over. As I'm in the market as well.
Trac Dynamics is one of the few companies that make them for my 08 bagger.
I talked to Brock's last year at the Expo and he said he was working on one for a bagger...but I still don't see one on his web site.
I'll check out your roaring toyz and see what they have to offer.
Ray
added later:
roaring toyz didn't show a swing arm offering for a bagger on their website.
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 07:00:06 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 26, 2016, 06:20:16 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams
Ray Jason has a couple bikes in his shop right now with the tracs dynamics swing arms on the and I really like them the fit and finish is great you might want to look into them some more before you decide on the zippers. Nothing wrong with the zippers but I like the tracs
Cool-
Could you post pictures of these bikes running Tracs?
I dont know they are bike he is building and it's not my place. I am thinking about ordering one for my dyna build I am gearing up for now that will be a while out but will post it if I do.
They are a really nice piece. PW, there are some pics on the C&S facebook page.
Quote from: Jonny Cash on January 27, 2016, 08:28:24 AM
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 07:00:06 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 26, 2016, 06:20:16 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on January 26, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
Quote from: No Cents on January 25, 2016, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on January 25, 2016, 10:15:23 AM
What did you decide to do with the swing arm?
Patrick...I went with trying the Nord Locks first before trying the more expensive things.
I got the Nord Locks put on yesterday. I had to put a little wider key stock on each side of the swing arm and I double roll pinned them this time. I had to grind a little bit off the axle nuts face so I could get the lock back on with the Nord Locks in place.
If this doesn't work my next attempt at a fix will be the Zipper's adjusters and axle.
He is a few pictures of the Nord Locks and the wider key stock I used. It's kind of hard to see the Nord Locks behind the axle cams
Ray Jason has a couple bikes in his shop right now with the tracs dynamics swing arms on the and I really like them the fit and finish is great you might want to look into them some more before you decide on the zippers. Nothing wrong with the zippers but I like the tracs
Cool-
Could you post pictures of these bikes running Tracs?
I dont know they are bike he is building and it's not my place. I am thinking about ordering one for my dyna build I am gearing up for now that will be a while out but will post it if I do.
They are a really nice piece. PW, there are some pics on the C&S facebook page.
Thanks-
Found it. https://www.facebook.com/C-S-Speed-Shop-158175674212864/ (https://www.facebook.com/C-S-Speed-Shop-158175674212864/)
Damn, that bike looks very much like my street bike roller (except it is an aftermarket frame and mine is HD FXR).
Nice to see others running Tracs on their bikes. On my second one now and their work is outstanding...
Didn't know much about this shop, but C&S looks like they do some nice work there.
Thanks for the kind words Paul.
Trac will work with you. I wanted something extra for my arm and they said. No problem.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/28/3764cf676d13037e4f44d8a091fcb018.jpg)
That piece is purdy!
You using the swing arm as an air tank for a shifter or possibly suspension?
What a beautiful piece.
Zach
Quote from: hrdtail78 on January 28, 2016, 07:27:19 AM
Thanks for the kind words Paul.
Trac will work with you. I wanted something extra for my arm and they said. No problem.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/28/3764cf676d13037e4f44d8a091fcb018.jpg)
Nice lookin swing arm. Oil tank?
Good to see a post from you Jason. Clearly you've been staying busy.
Thanks rageglide
For my air shifter. One will go to electronic control air valve the other a remote filler/ gauge.
This is Ray's thread. Let's get back to that. When I have more of this together. I might create a thread about it. I will be more than happy to answer most questions at that time.
I just wanted to give a attaboy to the guys over at Trac, and to show what they do. Dave seems to do what it takes to make a happy customer.
:wtf: is going on with that barn built 124 :potstir:
as far as any porter that wont send flow charts,ide find another porter.while there may be "secrets" that some porters may not want others to know,(ill lend and help on porting I know),your CFM thru your heads theve done shouldn't be a "secret",to you or anyone else.i give flow charts from my street port to top fuel heads
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 17, 2016, 05:08:32 PM
as far as any porter that wont send flow charts,ide find another porter.while there may be "secrets" that some porters may not want others to know,(ill lend and help on porting I know),your CFM thru your heads theve done shouldn't be a "secret",to you or anyone else.i give flow charts from my street port to top fuel heads
:up:
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 17, 2016, 05:08:32 PM
as far as any porter that wont send flow charts,ide find another porter.while there may be "secrets" that some porters may not want others to know,(ill lend and help on porting I know),your CFM thru your heads theve done shouldn't be a "secret",to you or anyone else.i give flow charts from my street port to top fuel heads
Sort of like an ET/MPH in the 1/4. What did the cumulative efforts of the work you did produce... shouldn't be a secret
Now what all went into reaching those numbers is a different story and thoroughly understandable for those at high level not to do a show & Tell on what all went into making that number
Whether the flow numbers are sent or not though is between the two parties and in the end with Ray the open book he is we will all see the final results on the Dyno at some point.
:agree:
Quote from: motolocopat on February 17, 2016, 08:22:55 PM
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 17, 2016, 05:08:32 PM
as far as any porter that wont send flow charts,ide find another porter.while there may be "secrets" that some porters may not want others to know,(ill lend and help on porting I know),your CFM thru your heads theve done shouldn't be a "secret",to you or anyone else.i give flow charts from my street port to top fuel heads
Sort of like an ET/MPH in the 1/4. What did the cumulative efforts of the work you did produce... shouldn't be a secret
Now what all went into reaching those numbers is a different story and thoroughly understandable for those at high level not to do a show & Tell on what all went into making that number
Whether the flow numbers are sent or not though is between the two parties and in the end with Ray the open book he is we will all see the final results on the Dyno at some point.
Part of what went into the ET or dyno numbers is the flow numbers so with this line of thinking they fall under the no show and tell part. Most racers do not post current dyno sheets, or flow numbers.
Not sure if winter is dragging on and some have nothing left to attack or what. If Ray has not received the heads yet why would he have to post the flow numbers?
Maybe he has it all and just wants to skip the internet experts getting to voice their prejudiced views and go right to the dyno sheets where they will attach them for reaching numbers they themselves cannot even dream of and therefore will find impossible to accept.
Some of you make these flow sheets sound like they are more than numbers on paper. Anyone that has been here very long knows there are too many variables involve to have the sheets do anything other than provide fuel for more controversy.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on February 18, 2016, 06:32:18 AM
One of the porters I like to use will give you more info than you ever need about the work performed.
Must be the guy I used. I don't even know what half of it means. :smile:
Rick
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 18, 2016, 05:56:37 AM
Quote from: motolocopat on February 17, 2016, 08:22:55 PM
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 17, 2016, 05:08:32 PM
as far as any porter that wont send flow charts,ide find another porter.while there may be "secrets" that some porters may not want others to know,(ill lend and help on porting I know),your CFM thru your heads theve done shouldn't be a "secret",to you or anyone else.i give flow charts from my street port to top fuel heads
Sort of like an ET/MPH in the 1/4. What did the cumulative efforts of the work you did produce... shouldn't be a secret
Now what all went into reaching those numbers is a different story and thoroughly understandable for those at high level not to do a show & Tell on what all went into making that number
Whether the flow numbers are sent or not though is between the two parties and in the end with Ray the open book he is we will all see the final results on the Dyno at some point.
Part of what went into the ET or dyno numbers is the flow numbers so with this line of thinking they fall under the no show and tell part. Most racers do not post current dyno sheets, or flow numbers.
Not sure if winter is dragging on and some have nothing left to attack or what. If Ray has not received the heads yet why would he have to post the flow numbers?
Maybe he has it all and just wants to skip the internet experts getting to voice their prejudiced views and go right to the dyno sheets where they will attach them for reaching numbers they themselves cannot even dream of and therefore will find impossible to accept.
Some of you make these flow sheets sound like they are more than numbers on paper. Anyone that has been here very long knows there are too many variables involve to have the sheets do anything other than provide fuel for more controversy.
I agree,flow #`s are far from telling the whole story of weather a build will produce good #`s or not,i don't give flow charts to show anything more than just what the are,the flow #`s of what the heads are doing,witch I think should come with any headwork,nothing more
to answer a few of the questions:
no...I don't have my heads or pistons back yet.
I seriously doubt I see flow sheets on the heads. I wouldn't post them if I did have them...out of respect that I was asked not to and flow numbers are let's face it...just numbers that doesn't prove anything about how the engine will perform.
If you guys must know...Fred did call me yesterday and he said he was just waiting on the new spring seats to show up that were left out of the shipping order by mistake that he placed for the new springs he is wanting to use on my heads...beside that the heads are suppose to be done. Fred has invested some serious work into these heads from what all he has told me. I have been keeping the updates he gives me on them to myself.
This has tested my patience thru this whole process and I hope it will be worth the wait. When all the missing parts are finally here...I will take my time assembling the engine and checking everything to the best of my ability before taking the bike to have it tuned.
Where ever it lands with dyno numbers is what it is. I have no numbers set for a goal. Like I said...I'm not chasing any more dyno numbers and all I want is to have a good running engine this time that has no more running issues like I was plagued with last season.
Ray
flow #`s may not be the whole story,but there FAR from "just numbers" & not indicating what a build will produce.good #`s will produce a good build 10,000 times over bad flow #`s,just another part of the puzzle,but still very important.out of all the components of a good build,its starts with good headwork
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 18, 2016, 06:47:58 AM
I agree,flow #`s are far from telling the whole story of weather a build will produce good #`s or not,i don't give flow charts to show anything more than just what the are,the flow #`s of what the heads are doing,witch I think should come with any headwork,nothing more
Again :up:
:agree: with you Kirby. I know flow #'s mean something...but everything else has to work in harmony together. That is my goal this time.
Fred doesn't like getting all wrapped up in these forums. He thinks there are way too many critics out there that are just out to do nothing but try to degrade any results that are out of the ordinary that they wouldn't typically see. It took me some time to realize this for myself.
I hope people don't think I'm on a mission to prove something here...because I'm not.
Ray
ray,didnt mean anything agaist you at all.you don't need to prove anything with your beast,youve pretty much all ready done that!!
Fred isn't the only porter that has this opinion. I just had my MVA's modified by one of the best known porters in NA and he explained what he would do "after" we discussed the build spec and use (RPM range, expectations etc.) When I asked about getting a sheet, he said "if you want one, it'll take time to do it and I'll add that on to the invoice". I did get flow at a couple of points (probably cuz he remembered me asking and he recorded them when he checked his work), but they weren't the mind blowing numbers I thought I might see because of the history of performance testing. I do however know the ports have been tested on a dyno with the same recipe build and work heads above the norm. (pun intended)
the thing I don't understand about some porters "charging" for a flow chart,are they not having the heads on a bench during & after porting?? I know I do,and putting it on a chart isn't a big deal.if their taking extra time to flow them after their done just for the sake of making & give a flow chart seems pretty scary to me,how do they know what they`ve done? (and I don't want to hear "the`ve done so many,they know what they flow" because that's :turd:
Quote from: prodrag1320 on February 18, 2016, 08:18:32 AM
the thing I don't understand about some porters "charging" for a flow chart,are they not having the heads on a bench during & after porting?? I know I do,and putting it on a chart isn't a big deal.if their taking extra time to flow them after their done just for the sake of making & give a flow chart seems pretty scary to me,how do they know what they`ve done? (and I don't want to hear "the`ve done so many,they know what they flow" because that's :turd:
Kind of like tuning a bike and charging a bit extra for the WOT sheet.
yea,or giving a STD sheet,but charging for a SAE sheet,i don't get it :nix:
The end of the day
What matters more ? Flow numbers or results ?
Bad port designs with mis-matched components can flow plenty of air...and do
They will not make good power
There are better than half a dozen head porters in the Harley world that don't give out flow sheets
why ? that is on them
The majority of customers don't ask for a flow sheet....EASY 9 out of 10
What they ask for is results...either performance for your $$ or performance compared to what else is out there.
No different than a dyno sheet.....that piece of paper doesn't mean squat if the bike wont get out of its own way
Or do what the customer wants
Flow numbers have already bit several people right in the ass.....if the performance is there and the numbers are what the vendor claims
Do they really matter ?
If I'm getting 8up, looking for new info, No Cents must be jonesing.
Quote from: tolobill on March 30, 2016, 06:37:39 AM
If I'm getting 8up, looking for new info, No Cents must be jonesing.
I don't think jonesing is the correct word to describe my frame of mind.
I'm :banghead: right now. I'm no further than I was four months ago.
I just hope there is a light at the end of this tunnel.
Just my luck...the coater sent me back my two freshly coated pistons...but he didn't return the coated wrist pins, and the two top compression rings I sent him for checking ring clearance in the ring lands once the pistons were coated. I called him back on the 24th the day the pistons arrived...and he said he would find the missing parts and get them shipped out...but to date...nothing. :banghead:
I seem to be getting nowhere...fast.
Damn Ray! Must get aggravating as hell waiting on your parts to get back. Do you have everything else you need?
if I ever see the rest of my piston parts returned...and get the heads back...I'm good to go. :doh:
Quote from: No Cents on March 30, 2016, 10:28:21 AM
if I ever see the rest of my piston parts returned...and get the heads back...I'm good to go. :doh:
Might have to give him a call and see if he found the parts! (maybe you already did) How do the heads look? Was looking forward to see a update, Ray! I think when I say for may of us it has been an awesome read. Hope you can get your parts back soon.
Quote from: No Cents on March 30, 2016, 10:28:21 AM
if I ever see the rest of my piston parts returned...and get the heads back...I'm good to go. :doh:
Ray I feel your pain, I waited for over 3 months on my heads but my outcome was well worth the wait imo. The guy's good but knows no time what-so-ever. I honestly have to say though it was worth the wait, for me at least and I hope for you as well !!
it does seem like the man is in no hurry to do things.
He is talented...but you can not be in any kind of a hurry if you want to use his services.
I do know that Baisley can take 6 months to a year to do a set of performance heads. So I guess I shouldn't complain.
My patience has just been wearing thin with the expectation of already having my engine back together by now.
Maybe someday it will happen...until then I just have to find other things to keep me busy and try not to think about it.
My heads were suppose to be done a week ago except for setting up the conical springs on them. They don't make a titanium retainer for these conical springs that accepts a 10* keeper with a 5/16" valve. Fred had a machine shop take the conical springs 7* titanium retainers and machine them for 5/16" valves and the 10* keepers he insists on using. It seems he is not wanting to stray away from the idea of using the conical springs on my heads.
I know I'm getting closer...so I will just have to sit and twiddle my thumbs until I see the missing parts show up.
Two words Ray, "Two Bikes". :chop:
I sent some items out, but truly am in no hurry, I have others to ride.
:agree:
I will not do anything like this again...unless I have another bike to ride. :up:
I've learned my lesson.
Quote from: No Cents on March 31, 2016, 05:11:16 AM
:agree:
I will not do anything like this again...unless I have another bike to ride. :up:
I've learned my lesson.
Yep!! I have 2 but the one I want to ride is always the one that's getting something done to it.
My next new bike, whatever that may be, is staying stock. I'd have it already if Harley ever makes it. Could end up on a BMW 1600 Ktl if Harley doesn't step up to the times.
Best thing I ever did was buying the BMW K1600 GTL for the second bike, now it is no rush to work on the Harley when it is needed. getting ready to load both bikes today in the trailer to go spend some time in Las Vegas and then on to PHX for Bike Week for a week. I will never be without a second bike again.
I have to admit, having a second bike is pretty sweet. Took the old one out to go for a ride, but it wouldn't start, dead battery. Darn, had to take the new one instead.
My life is hell.
I keep a Yamaha 2012 FJR that I bought slightly used as a second bike. Neither the 08 CVO Road King or the FJR have the proper wind protection I need for an old neck injury that just keeps getting worse as I get older. Took the RK out yesterday and came back like I had whiplash. Had to take extra Oxicodone to be able to sleep. I will keep the RK but definitely will be looking at the BMW or Goldwing line up for going long distances without getting beat up. Went through enough parts to get to 88K miles to make sure I don't get another HD. Love the bike but can't take the financial or physical beating.
Quote from: Ray G on March 31, 2016, 02:37:29 PM
I keep a Yamaha 2012 FJR that I bought slightly used as a second bike. Neither the 08 CVO Road King or the FJR have the proper wind protection I need for an old neck injury that just keeps getting worse as I get older. Took the RK out yesterday and came back like I had whiplash. Had to take extra Oxicodone to be able to sleep. I will keep the RK but definitely will be looking at the BMW or Goldwing line up for going long distances without getting beat up. Went through enough parts to get to 88K miles to make sure I don't get another HD. Love the bike but can't take the financial or physical beating.
Ray G, I have a herniated disc in my neck and suffer lots, especially on long trips. Get yourself a cervical collar from the drugstore. It doesn't have to be a big gronky one but it should fit well. Don't wait until your hurting. Get in the habit of putting it on and using it regularly). I don't use it for hopping around town though.) Doing this has been a savior for me. I regularly do 300 to 600 mile days in my area when working at my consulting business visiting clients. I use my Road Glide lots but when I carry a weeks worth of gear and manuals etc. I use the sidecar rig and it takes more out of you on the windy roads we have. The collar keeps it in check and is always with me.
I'm I the only guy that thinks machining a set of titanium retainers to fit a 10* keeper and a 5/16 valve is a bit strange? Why go threw all that? but what do I know? Ray your PM is full by the way.
Ray take a look or should I say ride on a vision.. Yes I know , and yes I know but stop looking at it and just ride it.. I think you will be shocked at how well thought out the ergonomics of the bike really are.. Oh yea I know
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on March 31, 2016, 03:36:50 PM
Ray take a look or should I say ride on a vision.. Yes I know , and yes I know but stop looking at it and just ride it.. I think you will be shocked at how well thought out the ergonomics of the bike really are.. Oh yea I know
I'm not sure how I would get from the garage door to the bike without puking. I guess a blindfold would work, hard to ride that way though. (JMHO) :SM:
Quote from: gabbyduffy on March 31, 2016, 03:36:29 PM
I'm I the only guy that thinks machining a set of titanium retainers to fit a 10* keeper and a 5/16 valve is a bit strange? Why go threw all that? but what do I know? Ray your PM is full by the way.
all's I know is that according to Fred the Comp Cams Conical spring doesn't come set up for the 5/16" valves that are in my 110 heads.
The spring itself is suppose to be the wave of the future. Nascar has already switched over to them on all their cars. They are suppose to be stronger and perform a lot better than a beehive or double or triple spring...with little to no harmonics coming from them. I've watch a few videos of the conical spring and I agreed with Fred that if he could incorporate them into my heads...to go for it.
As far as the 10* locks go...he's reply to that was he didn't trust a 7* keeper on the 5/16" valves. He said his goal was to have a tight 10* keeper installed so that it would help keep the valve from spinning.
added later:
My pm box only has one saved pm in it. :nix:
Hang in there Ray
:up:
Nothing ventured , nothing gained
Quote from: No Cents on March 31, 2016, 05:11:16 AM
:agree:
I will not do anything like this again...unless I have another bike to ride. :up:
I've learned my lesson.
I could always bring you my bike and have you jam my 124 in! :fish:
Quote from: Eglider05 on March 31, 2016, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on March 31, 2016, 03:36:50 PM
Ray take a look or should I say ride on a vision.. Yes I know , and yes I know but stop looking at it and just ride it.. I think you will be shocked at how well thought out the ergonomics of the bike really are.. Oh yea I know
I'm not sure how I would get from the garage door to the bike without puking. I guess a blindfold would work, hard to ride that way though. (JMHO) :SM:
:agree:
Man Ray, I sure am missing your post on your 124" motor. Surely you have some exciting info you can share with us to tide us over.
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Hope to see you get it fired up soon.. Mine is coming apart , for some work .. :wink: little porting on the heads , going to recoat the wiseco pistons with line to line .. just a few things I wanted to do..
I have read maybe 50 of these pages, pretty good stuff. What are you going to do with this thread when bike is done? You will have to start a new thread or forum membership may fall off!
" cat is on the road"
"Burnout cat"
"Alley cat"
deleted
Do you even remember how it goes back together?
deleted
Quit rubbing on it! You'll go blind!!
I just got to say since Ray's retirement and him patiently waiting for his heads he has taken up baking that part I like some of the best damn home made cookies and pies and cakes you'll ever eat but the other day he noticed a button missing from one of my flannel shirts now if Ray takes up sewing I'll probably round up our riding buddies for a intervention.. :hyst:
Next thing you know he'll be watching Gray anatomy and Nashville with the wife...
well ray any time you need a break , come on down and we can have a beer and some brisket and you can get mine to look that nice .. HA HA . They do get dirty and until you have to work on them most never know how grungy they really are. well look at it this way. If you have a leak you will know right where its as , being so clean ..
deleted
I am not worried about you Ray, with 410877 views for this thread you do not need a soap opera and neither do we.
Inventing your own parts, trying things nobody else has, always doing things your own way instead of buying from the shelf or a crate, you could have a successful show on the Discovery channel from this thread and bike alone.
You're in it for the journey not the destination and I think that is great. Heck with the bolt together, dyno tuning, feedback after some street miles, and the story of an up and coming drag racer we have enough coming to get three more seasons from you.
Ray as always thanks for taking us along on your journey.
Eric
Ray have you checked out that bike lift? Is it rated to hold the weight for this length of time?
maybe keep this thread going with a hydraulic service, roller and structural inspectionhttp://harleytechtalk.com/htt/Smileys/classic/hysterical.gif
I do reckon you wife need to take a video of when the heads arrive you will be like a dog who's owner has been away for 6 months
Come over Ray, mines a a bit dirty.... and I could use some cookies.... :smilep:
I think about retirement everyday, sitting on I-275 in traffic..... :emsad:
deleted
:hyst: They look great!!!
Oh.... you guys were really talking about cookies. I've been googling "Harley Performance Cookies" for a F'ing hour. Thought it was the next trick part or something.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on May 03, 2016, 05:25:16 PM
ummm...cookies :hyst:
[attach=0]
LOL! OMG!!! Ray, your a real piece of work! Sorry your heads aren't back yet, that's not helping Fred's rep at all, but glad you are keeping busy meanwhile! Regards, -A-
A guys reputation takes many satisfied customers to achieve. This dude is batting .000 in my box score.
Just got home and Ray you made my day! I've been wanting to know how it was coming along. Love reading your post. Dang, once you get those heads back and crank that engine, it will be like angels singing in the heavens. Can't wait to hear and see that first video of when you crank it up again. Carry on Ray, go the distance!
I guess the rumors are true, next time you need your heads worked on fly him up to Ohio and chain him up in the basement.
Quote from: No Cents on May 03, 2016, 09:03:51 AM
:nix: ...maybe say it's a clean cat :hyst:
the bottom side is as clean as the top side.
It's funny how one can find all the places that dirt and grime will hide on a bike...but give someone like me the time...and I'll find it and clean it. Yes...I've been that bored. I've rubbed on this one so many times that I can't find anymore dirt or grime on it. :doh:
I'm ready to get this thing off the lift and get it dirty. :SM:
[attach=0]
Ray, is that a check sheet for reassembly hanging on your bike, or a honey do list from the wifey poo? She put it where she knew you would see it..... :teeth:
Ray
deleted
No ticky, ticky, No washy, washy................ :wink:
I use check lists as well. they keep me in check. Lol
When I ran a dirt modified I put a large dry erase board on the wall in the garage for notes/reminders/lists. Weekly car prep. to do list was on a large piece of cardboard taped to the car. Guys could pick a chore and line it off when done.
They talk about us guys that make list like something's wrong with us. :nix:
I have a legal pad with a list of jobs at work, I have a list on the kitchen table for things to do around the house, (I really don't want to replace some of the boards on the deck), I start lists all the time for the bike.
Lists help me relax because I don't have to keep going over the issues in my head to keep them straight.
deleted
Quote from: No Cents on May 05, 2016, 03:25:05 PM
the check list saves me from questioning myself later if I did something or not...and it's also a reminder to me to write down notes on measurements I took during assembly.
[attach=0]
Ray
it isn't yellowed too bad yet :dgust:
Once it gets yellow, you know you have been pissed on. I kissed my 500 bucks away on a said to be done intake runner a few months ago.
Yikes. :gob: Someone has some PR work to do. -Tutt
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
Quote from: jam65 on May 05, 2016, 08:03:14 PM
Once it gets yellow, you know you have been pissed on. I kissed my 500 bucks away on a said to be done intake runner a few months ago.
was the same guy doing a intake for you?
Yes, same guy Fred Hether aka Fast Freddy.
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Quote from: No Cents on May 14, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Only if you drive down there & get them.
Ray, this whole project with you was meant to be a publicity stunt for "Fast Freddy". While I understand that he was very ill with pneumonia for a time, at the end of the day, when he is back to work, he needs to get your heads back to you, otherwise his "publicity stunt" to show his expertise goes nowhere at all!!!
NO ONE with a ten foot pole is going to touch this guy if he doesn't have respectable average turn-around time. NO one!
-A-
I hear both of you...loud and clear! :up:
I understand your going the route you did Ray, it's just unfortunate that it's dragging out like this.
Quote from: CowboyTutt on May 14, 2016, 03:47:02 PM
Ray, this whole project with you was meant to be a publicity stunt for "Fast Freddy". While I understand that he was very ill with pneumonia for a time, at the end of the day, when he is back to work, he needs to get your heads back to you, otherwise his "publicity stunt" to show his expertise goes nowhere at all!!!
NO ONE with a ten foot pole is going to touch this guy if he doesn't have respectable average turn-around time. NO one!
-A-
Yep this whole deals sucks especially for Ray , and I don't believe Fast Freddy gives 2 shits what we say and feel about him at this point,I say get your old WfO Larry Heads back on the engine because 150 Hp/Tq feels pretty dam good..
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 14, 2016, 04:24:00 PM
Quote from: CowboyTutt on May 14, 2016, 03:47:02 PM
Ray, this whole project with you was meant to be a publicity stunt for "Fast Freddy". While I understand that he was very ill with pneumonia for a time, at the end of the day, when he is back to work, he needs to get your heads back to you, otherwise his "publicity stunt" to show his expertise goes nowhere at all!!!
NO ONE with a ten foot pole is going to touch this guy if he doesn't have respectable average turn-around time. NO one!
-A-
Yep this whole deals sucks especially for Ray , and i don't believe that Fast Freddy gives 2 shits what we all say and think of him at this point..
There were similar results a few years ago with this guy, except it was Triumph heads, couple threads over on the Triumph forum. Guys send him parts, can't get ahold of him, then he has some type of medical issue. Unfortunate because he apparently has talent.
Quote from: jam65 on May 14, 2016, 01:54:53 PM
Yes, same guy Fred Hether aka Fast Freddy.
Same guy tried talking me into sending my throttle body down to him. I would not have even considered it if it was not for a few posts on this Forum with members Cosigning for the guy. I knew it was a wash when he said he needed to machine Titanium valve spring retainers for a particular degree keeper.
Find a set of used heads and send them to one of the fellows you trust. You will be back in the saddle in no time and Fred will just be a bad memory.........
Quote from: wfolarry on May 14, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 14, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Only if you drive down there & get them.
:hyst:
Quote from: Jonny Cash on May 14, 2016, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 14, 2016, 04:24:00 PM
Quote from: CowboyTutt on May 14, 2016, 03:47:02 PM
Ray, this whole project with you was meant to be a publicity stunt for "Fast Freddy". While I understand that he was very ill with pneumonia for a time, at the end of the day, when he is back to work, he needs to get your heads back to you, otherwise his "publicity stunt" to show his expertise goes nowhere at all!!!
NO ONE with a ten foot pole is going to touch this guy if he doesn't have respectable average turn-around time. NO one!
-A-
Yep this whole deals sucks especially for Ray , and i don't believe that Fast Freddy gives 2 shits what we all say and think of him at this point..
There were similar results a few years ago with this guy, except it was Triumph heads, couple threads over on the Triumph forum. Guys send him parts, can't get ahold of him, then he has some type of medical issue. Unfortunate because he apparently has talent.
Damn...
Quote from: wfolarry on May 14, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 14, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Only if you drive down there & get them.
That is not a bad idea. This internet stuff is weak as best. Things will probably work out much better face to face.
Quote from: turboprop on May 14, 2016, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: wfolarry on May 14, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 14, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Only if you drive down there & get them.
That is not a bad idea. This internet stuff is weak as best. Things will probably work out much better face to face.
:up: :up:
Heck No Cents is retired,, Camp out on the guy's door step.. Someone offered him a bike to ride, Take it down there.. If he needs help, sweeping the floor, doing the guys landry,, get err done.. Looks like cherryseeg2 is getting stuff out of the guy.. (Must be close :wink:)
Quote from: turboprop on May 14, 2016, 07:13:23 PM
Quote from: wfolarry on May 14, 2016, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: No Cents on May 14, 2016, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Smarty on May 14, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in full depression mode over Ray's thread and the waiting, waiting, waiting on the heads. I know Ray has got to have already gone to his doctor and got a script for some Valium to mellow out. I know I would have and may still do it if Ray doesn't get his heads soon.
no heads yet...maybe someday I'll see them.
Only if you drive down there & get them.
That is not a bad idea. This internet stuff is weak as best. Things will probably work out much better face to face.
Should have already been done.
:pop:........
Where's this guy live?
Cartersville, GA
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2016, 06:24:28 AM
Cartersville, GA
You can make that in a day. Load up the truck today. Head out bright & early tomorrow.
Maybe the problem is because you're getting them on the cheap they keep getting put on the back burner.
Quote from: wfolarry on May 15, 2016, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2016, 06:24:28 AM
Cartersville, GA
You can make that in a day. Load up the truck today. Head out bright & early tomorrow.
Maybe the problem is because you're getting them on the cheap they keep getting put on the back burner.
I just found out today that Fred was suppose to be moving. It might be a wasted trip for me if I was to drive down there. Trust me...my plan was to drive down there tomorrow...until I found out he might not even be there.
My plan now is to try to find and buy another set of 110 heads and just move forward and chalk this up as a learning experience.
Ray
added later:
...and Max...it's No Cents...get it right.
I thought the heads were done he was just waiting on the conical springs?
Last Tuesday I was told I would have my heads back this Saturday.
No heads showed up and I keep finding out more things that are happening behind the scenes.
At this point I think my smartest option is to just find me another set of heads so I can get my bike running and off the lift.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86758.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86758.0.html) :smiled:
Ray, that sucks really sorry to hear! Who would you have do the heads?
It's no secret who the top dog head guys are-
Go to the best, get the best...tell them your goals, write a big check, and get out of their way.
Heads, pistons, intake, cam profile, all for one goal-whatever that goal is.
Trust the best, stay away from the the internet "experts" advice, where most have never actually made the HP you are shooting for, and receive a product that will exceed your expectations, and not disappoint.
Quote from: No Cents on May 15, 2016, 09:11:13 AM
Last Tuesday I was told I would have my heads back this Saturday.
No heads showed up and I keep finding out more things that are happening behind the scenes.
At this point I think my smartest option is to just find me another set of heads so I can get my bike running and off the lift.
I hate to even suggest this on harley page, but my business experience has sort of numbed me, but here goes; Sling some paper at him. Funny how a summons from a court will suddenly fix problems. Just to make it fun for Fred, file the claim in your state.
at this point I'm willing to just bolt on a stock set of 110 heads and change the cams out to get the bike up and running again. I was really looking forward to seeing some strip time this year...but that dream has long since gone for me. This has pretty much taken the wind out of my sail.
I'm just wanting to be able to ride again...and that is my main goal as of today after I got the info I received today. I just want to get my bike back running...and on the road.
Ray
Ray give me a call on Monday. I have a set of ported 110 heads that you can have no issues . They are granite but it will get you up and running . Flow wise I recall them being in the 300-310 range. They are used but worked fine for the build they where on Not outstanding but will get you through till your winter. Being from back east I know how short the season really is..
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 15, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Ray give me a call on Monday. I have a set of ported 110 heads that you can have no issues . They are granite but it will get you up and running . Flow wise I recall them being in the 300-310 range. They are used but worked fine for the build they where on Not outstanding but will get you through till your winter. Being from back east I know how short the season really is..
That's really good of you Steve!! :up:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Davidson-Screamin-Eagle-Twin-Cam-MVA-CnC-Ported-Heads-110-120R-/291759769689?hash=item43ee3cc859:g:ergAAOSw8n1XMOcE&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Davidson-Screamin-Eagle-Twin-Cam-MVA-CnC-Ported-Heads-110-120R-/291759769689?hash=item43ee3cc859:g:ergAAOSw8n1XMOcE&vxp=mtr)
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 15, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Ray give me a call on Monday. I have a set of ported 110 heads that you can have no issues . They are granite but it will get you up and running . Flow wise I recall them being in the 300-310 range. They are used but worked fine for the build they where on Not outstanding but will get you through till your winter. Being from back east I know how short the season really is..
Steve...thank you for that generous offer...I truly appreciate it! :up:
I'm not looking for anything for free. I want to pay for everything I get.
Right now I'm going to have to take a step back and try to come up with a different plan for a combo that will work with the pistons I have. I will definitely have to pull the 635HO's out and go with a different cam.
My brain has gone into overload with all that has happened in the past 24 hours. This has not been one of my better days in my life so far. I need to start drinking again...and get good and drunk...but I know my head and body would pay for it for probably a week later. :hyst:
I would like to say thanks to all the members on here that have pm'd me and called me on the phone showing me their support today. You guys know who you are...and I say thank you to all of you. :hug: It was very humbling.
Ray
Those guys are true business people and private individuals that will give instead of take. I was brought up that a man's word and a hand shake were all that was needed.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 15, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Ray give me a call on Monday. I have a set of ported 110 heads that you can have no issues . They are granite but it will get you up and running . Flow wise I recall them being in the 300-310 range. They are used but worked fine for the build they where on Not outstanding but will get you through till your winter. Being from back east I know how short the season really is..
first class dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
impressed!!!!
Head up Ray, we all been there. I got heads on my shelf that i have spent many thousands on that are book ends now, from pretty well know guys too. Sad it can still happen in this industry, but like others said, go to plan B and get her going again. Hope it works out for you in the end.
I seem to remember you sold the wifey's bike
Better buy her another one :teeth:
(with at least a 124 in it)
you may be able to borrow it for a while :up:
i was there with my 124 build! i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers! in the end they got booted of this site! my question is why did you quit Larry!(smoke and mirrors) hope it all works out for you and im sorry this has happened :beer: Travis
Ray, I know I offered before but if you want to still wait this guy out, I have a tricked out 95" RK you can borrow for as long as you want.
It is a little behind the times nowdays & you would have to come pick it up (or have Keyboard ship it) but still runs awesome & you could keep it as long as necessary.
~John
thank you to all of you for your support and offers. :up:
After a bad nights sleep with tossing and turning and thinking about it all night long...I still don't know what I'm going to do.
Hey...but I guess I should be thankful that I'm blessed enough to have woken up this morning and I'm still alive.
I will figure something out eventually.
Ray
:pop:
Keep the dream alive ray.
File it through the courts and look into other options. He's not the only one out there.
You could go aftermarket heads, B2, R&R and still keep your 635's. Get a new set and send those to one of the porters you know will not screw you over, let them improve on them and be done with it. We've all had costly mistakes to learn from.
Quote from: hotbo on May 15, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
i was there with my 124 build! i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers! in the end they got booted of this site! my question is why did you quit Larry!(smoke and mirrors) hope it all works out for you and im sorry this has happened :beer: Travis
I think your reply deserves an answer.
I never gave up on Larry. Larry is an honest man and he is a very talented head porter...and no doubt "one of the best" in the biz.
I went into this deal with Fred really not knowing what to expect. I'm not going to trash talk anyone as I'm not made that way...and I will just have to chalk this up as a learning experience for me.
The saddest part to all this is...I love to ride more than anything else I do...and right now that is not happening. So I have to find a way to resolve that. You guys don't realize how bad this has affected me mentally. :banghead: My brain feels like it's been laying in a frying pan getting poked with a fork. I can honestly say this is a hurtle that I will over come and I will somehow get my bike back up and running again someday. I guess time heals and I will just have to be patient and make another plan.
Ray
From what I can tell, Ray, is that you are just a set of heads and maybe a cam away from getting your bike running. Not insurmountable hurdles, but not exactly what you had in mind for this next phase of the build. I feel your frustration, just not nearly as bad as you do.
I know you'll get past this, get it running, and keep going forward to getting this thing on the track.
I'm disappointed in how Fred has treated you. It is unfortunate that he wasn't up front in his timeline, or at the very least, just stepping away and getting your heads back to you.
Good luck, we really are all pulling for you.
And how about the generosity of the people on this site? It is pretty amazing the number of people that step up here to help others, with no expectation of anything in return. Pretty cool!
Quote from: No Cents on May 16, 2016, 05:00:26 AM
Quote from: hotbo on May 15, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
i was there with my 124 build! i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers! in the end they got booted of this site! my question is why did you quit Larry!(smoke and mirrors) hope it all works out for you and im sorry this has happened :beer: Travis
I think your reply deserves an answer.
I never gave up on Larry. Larry is an honest man and he is a very talented head porter...and no doubt "one of the best" in the biz.
I went into this deal with Fred really not knowing what to expect. I'm not going to trash talk anyone as I'm not made that way...and I will just have to chalk this up as a learning experience for me.
The saddest part to all this is...I love to ride more than anything else I do...and right now that is not happening. So I have to find a way to resolve that. You guys don't realize how bad this has affected me mentally. :banghead: My brain feels like it's been laying in a frying pan getting poked with a fork. I can honestly say this is a hurtle that I will over come and I will somehow get my bike back up and running again someday. I guess time heals and I will just have to be patient and make another plan.
Ray
Larry is a great head guy as is many others on this site.
Ray i feel your pain more than you can realize.it does affect us as decent human beings when things go down like this!Best of luck and look forward to you making Progress.Never give up!Travis
say the word Ray. I will send ya my MVA's. use them as long as ya need.
93 cc's
Ok so they are on loan for as long as you need :wink:.. Hows that , its not free HA HA at this point get it up and running and go ride. Once the heads are done and he sends them back . Go to the build that you had outlined to start with..
One thing that's very apparent Ray,you have the solid support of many great members on this site.That has to be encouraging to you.
If you're not into going to Freddie the fuck-up to retrieve your heads,I'd get another set and move on,life's short,get riding.Bob
Quote from: strokerjlk on May 16, 2016, 06:45:53 AM
say the word Ray. I will send ya my MVA's. use them as long as ya need.
93 cc's
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 16, 2016, 06:55:15 AM
Ok so they are on loan for as long as you need :wink:.. Hows that , its not free HA HA at this point get it up and running and go ride. Once the heads are done and he sends them back . Go to the build that you had outlined to start with..
Ray, the last 2 posts make a lot of sense. A few good things will come from following that advice.
1 - You'll get out in the barn and start doing what you love, getting the coppertop rolling
2 - You'll have a ride to clear the mind and stay sane while waiting
3 - You CAN go to the track and practice your launches and runs to perfection and when you do get your plan together your confidence at the track will be an asset
We are all hoping "someone" is following this thread and their conscience will cause them to do a killer job and even though late will perform as promised. Sometimes ya just gotta wait for the good things. In the mean time listen to your good friends and get rollin for now.
Quote from: Hossamania on May 16, 2016, 05:18:05 AM
From what I can tell, Ray, is that you are just a set of heads and maybe a cam away from getting your bike running. Not insurmountable hurdles, but not exactly what you had in mind for this next phase of the build. I feel your frustration, just not nearly as bad as you do.
I know you'll get past this, get it running, and keep going forward to getting this thing on the track.
I'm disappointed in how Fred has treated you. It is unfortunate that he wasn't up front in his timeline, or at the very least, just stepping away and getting your heads back to you.
Good luck, we really are all pulling for you.
And how about the generosity of the people on this site? It is pretty amazing the number of people that step up here to help others, with no expectation of anything in return. Pretty cool!
Hoss...no truer words can be spoken. You would not believe all the people that have stepped up and have offered to send me heads so I can get back up and running. Some of these offers were made from people that I have never met before...and it is very humbling.
Steve @ GMR called me a little while ago and he wants to send me a set of 110 heads to get me back up and running. I accepted his offer and I will be ever indebted to him as well as everybody else that has made the same kind of offer to me. I can't put it into words to show my appreciation to the many members on here that have quickly stepped up to show how much they actually care and they are willing to help out another member on this forum when they are down. This has to be the best forum going with the greatest members on the planet.
I want to thank all of you...from the bottom of my heart! :hug:
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 16, 2016, 07:52:47 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 16, 2016, 05:18:05 AM
From what I can tell, Ray, is that you are just a set of heads and maybe a cam away from getting your bike running. Not insurmountable hurdles, but not exactly what you had in mind for this next phase of the build. I feel your frustration, just not nearly as bad as you do.
I know you'll get past this, get it running, and keep going forward to getting this thing on the track.
I'm disappointed in how Fred has treated you. It is unfortunate that he wasn't up front in his timeline, or at the very least, just stepping away and getting your heads back to you.
Good luck, we really are all pulling for you.
And how about the generosity of the people on this site? It is pretty amazing the number of people that step up here to help others, with no expectation of anything in return. Pretty cool!
Hoss...no truer words can be spoken. You would not believe all the people that have stepped up and have offered to send me heads so I can get back up and running. Some of these offers were made from people that I have never met before...and it is very humbling.
Steve @ GMR called me a little while ago and he wants to send me a set of 110 heads to get me back up and running. I accepted his offer and I will be ever indebted to him as well as everybody else that has made the same kind of offer to me. I can't put it into words to show my appreciation to the many members on here that have quickly stepped up to show how much they actually care and they are willing to help out another member on this forum when they are down. This has to be the best forum going with the great members on the planet.
I want to thank all of you...from the bottom of my heart! :hug:
Ray
Steve is a good man! :up:
Damn I have not been on in a few days and all hell brakes loose. Ray we all love you and it will get better check your pm's.
Well hell, been gone. I guess my 02 take offs aren't needed either. Way to go Ray. Now you see why we follow this thread and all the trials and tribulations. Good bunch here for sure!
Quote from: No Cents on May 16, 2016, 07:52:47 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 16, 2016, 05:18:05 AM
From what I can tell, Ray, is that you are just a set of heads and maybe a cam away from getting your bike running. Not insurmountable hurdles, but not exactly what you had in mind for this next phase of the build. I feel your frustration, just not nearly as bad as you do.
I know you'll get past this, get it running, and keep going forward to getting this thing on the track.
I'm disappointed in how Fred has treated you. It is unfortunate that he wasn't up front in his timeline, or at the very least, just stepping away and getting your heads back to you.
Good luck, we really are all pulling for you.
And how about the generosity of the people on this site? It is pretty amazing the number of people that step up here to help others, with no expectation of anything in return. Pretty cool!
Hoss...no truer words can be spoken. You would not believe all the people that have stepped up and have offered to send me heads so I can get back up and running. Some of these offers were made from people that I have never met before...and it is very humbling.
Steve @ GMR called me a little while ago and he wants to send me a set of 110 heads to get me back up and running. I accepted his offer and I will be ever indebted to him as well as everybody else that has made the same kind of offer to me. I can't put it into words to show my appreciation to the many members on here that have quickly stepped up to show how much they actually care and they are willing to help out another member on this forum when they are down. This has to be the best forum going with the greatest members on the planet.
I want to thank all of you...from the bottom of my heart! :hug:
Ray
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Quote from: hotbo on May 15, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers!
yeah, as great as this site is not everybody is honest.
I got flat out screwed by a poster here a few years ago. I wanted to buy something, he said send me x dollars by PayPal & you'll have your stuff within a week.
The stuff never came & when I emailed him to check on it, the email account had been cancelled. I never heard from the a-hole again, but it wasn't a whole lot of money so instead of tracking him down (which I definitely would if it was a lot of money) I just said F it.
~John
Quote from: jmorton10 on May 17, 2016, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: hotbo on May 15, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers!
yeah, as great as this site is not everybody is honest.
I got flat out screwed by a poster here a few years ago. I wanted to buy something, he said send me x dollars by PayPal & you'll have your stuff within a week.
The stuff never came & when I emailed him to check on it, the email account had been cancelled. I never heard from the a-hole again, but it wasn't a whole lot of money so instead of tracking him down (which I definitely would if it was a lot of money) I just said F it.
~John
Should have a turd section, so the same guy does not screw more then one person at a time.
I second that motion.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on May 18, 2016, 04:35:14 PM
Quote from: jmorton10 on May 17, 2016, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: hotbo on May 15, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
i go F-ed by some guys i thought were brothers!
yeah, as great as this site is not everybody is honest.
I got flat out screwed by a poster here a few years ago. I wanted to buy something, he said send me x dollars by PayPal & you'll have your stuff within a week.
The stuff never came & when I emailed him to check on it, the email account had been cancelled. I never heard from the a-hole again, but it wasn't a whole lot of money so instead of tracking him down (which I definitely would if it was a lot of money) I just said F it.
~John
Should have a turd section, so the same guy does not screw more then one person at a time.
Thats not a bad idea. Not sure of the legalities, but it would be great if this page had a 'Wall of Shame' for guys and business that have been confirmed to have burned members of the forum. Sort of a black list.
I think out of fairness we would have to be very careful about that. Every business screws up once in a while. Everyone was hot to trot for Gaterman lifters and good people were selling them only to find out later the tolerances were not very stable. Now no one touches them. It wouldn't be fair to ruin someones livelihood for an honest mistake. I think it would take at least 3 badly burned customers to ever be on a list and even then they might have many, many more satisfied customers. Bad news travels fast I'm told for those that work within the industry. I don't think we really need to do more than we are doing. Guys that are really crooked eventually get ratted out no matter what. Just my opinion. -Tutt
Every time I see a new post in this thread, I'm hoping it's Ray saying his heads are back.
But if you get nothing for the money spent and then are told that you need to pay full price for an additional $600.00? Then ask for the initial up front payment of $500.00 dollars back and be done with it, and the response was that it aint gonna happen.
Its OK to share your personal experiences as long as they are true, and that does sound pretty horrible. Did you ever get your manifold back? Was it worked on? Small claims court is a PITA and you often get a lawyer acting as pro-temp judge, and anything can happen. Ray probably doesn't have much of a leg to stand on other than to get his heads back, because he didn't pay for it, it was promotional work. If in your case you paid money for a service and did not receive it, you have a strong case. Complaints can also be filed with the Better Business Bureau and I think they can also tell you something about a business or vendors rep. That is the place to lodge a complaint and tell the vendor you are doing so. Its probably their job, not ours. I respect your opinion and experiences though, you know that.
Regards Buddy, -Tutt
No money and no manifold back and now, no more turds from me on Rays' thread.
Agreed. -Tutt
I honestly don't know if I will ever see my heads come back...but I keep hoping they will show up someday. Right now Fred will not communicate with me now thru phone calls or e-mails. :nix:
I do have the initial investment of the head castings I supplied him with, and I do have some money invested into this project also...plus the apparent lose of the Rubber Maid shipping container that I sent my heads in. But for what ever reason...which is unknown to me...Fred has decided not to talk to me now. I'm still confused as to why this sudden change of heart happened for him. Truth be told...I may never know why the sudden change happened.
As far as legal actions go...that's something I myself personally would never do. I don't care to use the legal system...I was raised on the other side of the tracks. :wink:
Ray
QuoteAs far as legal actions go...that's something I myself personally would never do. I don't care to use the legal system.
That's up to you Ray. It's your build, your personal experiences that matter. Personally, I disagree with you, but it's certainly your call to make. You probably might also have legal avenues available to you. It's up to you, and you alone. Thanks for your inspiration and help on my build. You have helped a lot of people here, including me!!!!! Regards Buddy!
-A-
Keep your head up Ray no pun intended :hyst:,before you know it Copperhead and Canned Heat will be pulling out of local watering holes and biker events leaving massive burnouts and riding wheelies and when we're not out doing that we will be enjoying our swimming pools surrounded by family and friends all things considered we really are pretty blessed, Life is good ..😎
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 19, 2016, 03:12:05 AM
Keep your head up Ray no pun intended :hyst: ,before you know it Copperhead and Canned Heat will be pulling out of local watering holes and biker events leaving massive burnouts and riding wheelies and when we're not out doing that we will be enjoying our swimming pools surrounded by family and friends all things considered we really are pretty blessed, Life is good ..😎
:up: :up:
Take the trip south. A face to face meeting would probably resolve it & you'll be back in business. At least that way you would know where you stand instead of always wondering & hoping & thinking & praying & dreaming & ...........
Ray, just put the word out where you think he now is living/working. Has to be someone on this site that lives close or within an hours drive. If I lived close, I would find him for you and try and make it right for you. I cannot stand people that pump their chest at how good they are and then bail when the going gets rough. I would like to see Fred get if not an ass whooping, a good yelling at and something in return if not your heads, another set laying around.
Quote from: wfolarry on May 19, 2016, 04:29:37 AM
Take the trip south. A face to face meeting would probably resolve it & you'll be back in business. At least that way you would know where you stand instead of always wondering & hoping & thinking & praying & dreaming & ...........
Smarty...the last two times I actually spoke with Fred on the phone I asked him if he would just replace the two stock 110 head castings I sent him and he could just go ahead and sell my heads that he has done all the work on if he was in a money pinch...and we would call it good. That didn't work out for me either.
Larry...I have no clue as to where Fred is at now. I was told he moved out of his shop last week...and like I said he won't respond to any phone calls or e-mails from me now. From what he told me a few weeks ago his latest sickness was caused by mold that was apparently inside the walls at that building he leased for his shop and it also had an apartment in it where he was staying. He said they came in and tested the building for mold and it was ate up with it under the carpets and inside the walls. That was the only known address I had for him.
added later:
FWIW...I broke a promise to myself and I tried to call Fred yesterday. It went to his voice mail again and I left a message asking him what would it take for me to get my heads back, if it has boiled down to a money issue now. I got no reply back.
Don't even think about sending him cash........... :angry:
:agree:
He'll pop up somewhere. Guys like this can't help it. Someone will find him. Just hope he still has your heads when he does pop up.
Zach
I googled this guy, looks like he has done this type of thing before......
Its terrible that this happened to you, you apparently aren't the first guy he has burned. A google search will bring up a few threads on this guy when he was doing Triumph heads and intakes. Ray, your thread here has been a wealth of info for a lot of people here, including me, and for that I say thank you. I have learned from my line of work and my other addiction, dog showing, that it really is about PEOPLE. I have been fortunate that I have usually found the right ones to deal with. A person can have all the talent in the world, but if they can't conduct their business in a professional manner its not some body I want to deal with. I have had the same luck with hot rodding my bagger, I have been fortunate to get involved with good people. I know you will get this lined out and move on.
Just a thought. He obviously knows your number. Go pick up a cheap pre-paid cell phone and try calling from that number. You never know.
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on May 19, 2016, 05:10:43 AMand like I said he won't respond to any phone calls or e-mails from me now.
I tried calling him myself from a number I found online. Straight to VM
Quote from: No Cents on May 18, 2016, 07:05:25 PM
I honestly don't know if I will ever see my heads come back...but I keep hoping they will show up someday. Right now Fred will not communicate with me now thru phone calls or e-mails. :nix:
I do have the initial investment of the head castings I supplied him with, and I do have some money invested into this project also...plus the apparent lose of the Rubber Maid shipping container that I sent my heads in. But for what ever reason...which is unknown to me...Fred has decided not to talk to me now. I'm still confused as to why this sudden change of heart happened for him. Truth be told...I may never know why the sudden change happened.
As far as legal actions go...that's something I myself personally would never do. I don't care to use the legal system...I was raised on the other side of the tracks. :wink:
Ray
second that. :wink:
If's he really ripping off multiple people all the time, it will come out, and he will suffer for it. He's already suffering for it here.
Regards
-Tutt
Hi Ray. From your previous post it sounds like Fred has a set of stock 110 castings and your worked heads?
I'm going to remind everyone that site rules prohibit hashing this type of vendor issue out here on tech boards. While the conversation here has not crossed the line into bashing, the recent posts seem to have lost their technical content and been replaced with how to deal with this vendor. I'd hate to see this thread get locked for that.
Hey Boss,
Since the tech has really gone out of this thread, can I move it over to Earl's?
How about Ray and the higher powers agree to move the last few pages of posts to a new thread and leave the rest of this thread right where it is. Ray will no doubt get this running one way or another and in the end there will be someones high performance heads, tech info and dyno charts posted right here to complete this thread.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 20, 2016, 03:04:46 AM
How about Ray and the higher powers agree to move the last few pages of posts to a new thread and leave the rest of this thread right where it is. Ray will no doubt get this running one way or another and in the end there will be someones high performance heads, tech info and dyno charts posted right here to complete this thread.
Eric...they can move, delete, or do what they want with this thread. It's the mods choice. I really don't care one way or the other.
As far as this thing with Fred goes...I'm not going to bash him or anyone else for that matter. Yes...my plans had to change...but I will get my engine back together and be able to once again do what I enjoy most...go riding.
With the recent changes I've had to do I have no expectations of what this engine will do now...and I have no plans of posting tech or graphs of it. It will just be a rider.
Yeah right Ray Just a rider :hyst:
There's nothing wrong with changing your plans and just making a rider out of it.
I've considered that with mine. Lowering the compression and putting a mild low lift cam in it but it's just hard to complain about it at this point for what it is. All I can say is, the parts like each other and Jim did a hell of job on the tune. Cranking around 215-220ish ccp and runs no more than 185-190 oil temps. Heck, I started running 10/40 oil cause the temps stay so low on it. Sure hard on the battery tho. Lol
To me, this has been one of the most interesting, tech threads on this whole forum with tons of informative info. I as others have said, move the last couple of pages but please don't move this thread that has been followed by so many for so long. Ray, can't wait to see what the daily rider will be like. Keep it up buddy!
the heads Steve is sending me should be here today according to the tracking #'s.
First thing I will do is cc them and then mock it up to see if I will have enough valve to piston clearance. Steve told me these heads were originally done by Hillside some years back and they have been milled..."a bunch". So....there is still the outside chance they might not work on my engine with the domed pistons I have. I got my fingers crossed and I'll know for sure later on today if they will work or not. I already removed the 635HO's and put the 640's back in. We both knew the 635HO's would not work with the heads. From the calculations Steve did he thinks it should end up in the 215- 220 ccp range with the 640's back in. He's was also thinking it will be around 12.2 compression with this combo.
Very cool, Ray. Would love to see it running by the end of the weekend. I know you would too.
Hoss...I had to order a .040" set of head gaskets for this combo to keep the compression down. If they show up in the next few days and I have the clearances needed with Steve's heads...I will have it fired up in no time.
It will be nice to hear it come back to life...it's been awhile since I've heard it running.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on May 20, 2016, 05:21:10 AM
the heads Steve is sending me should be here today according to the tracking #'s.
First thing I will do is cc them and then mock it up to see if I will have enough valve to piston clearance. Steve told me these heads were originally done by Hillside some years back and they have been milled..."a bunch". So....there is still the outside chance they might not work on my engine with the domed pistons I have. I got my fingers crossed and I'll know for sure later on today if they will work or not. I already removed the 635HO's and put the 640's back in. We both knew the 635HO's would not work with the heads. From the calculations Steve did he thinks it should end up in the 215- 220 ccp range with the 640's back in. He's was also thinking it will be around 12.2 compression with this combo.
If they don't work out Ray let me know, I have 2 sets of 110" heads here. Both have had the GMR treatment. 1 set is mine and another is a customer, you can have mine if you need them, or I can fine out what my customer wants to do with his. Both sets are granite though. I can cc them ahead of time. Just give the word
thank you Chad! :up:
I should know something today.
On Vehicle for Delivery Today... Ring me once you get them.. I bet you have all the tools laid out ready to go.. Being the yard work is done ha ha
215-220 ccp with the 640's should work really well. :up:
Ray. I know you don't like them much but I have a set of flat top S&S pistons +.010". New in the box
Ray, can't imagine how you feel not being able to ride, I have not been able to ride my RK for a month and half now since I broke my pipe in the same place you did down in PHX bike week. even though I have other bikes to ride, I miss the thumping of my Harley. good luck and hope it all works out for you. :chop:
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 20, 2016, 06:52:09 AM
On Vehicle for Delivery Today... Ring me once you get them.. I bet you have all the tools laid out ready to go.. Being the yard work is done ha ha
:hyst: ...apparently you know me all too well
[attach=0]
Quote from: No Cents on May 20, 2016, 07:56:20 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 20, 2016, 06:52:09 AM
On Vehicle for Delivery Today... Ring me once you get them.. I bet you have all the tools laid out ready to go.. Being the yard work is done ha ha
:hyst: ...apparently you know me all too well
[attach=0]
You have the burette juiced up and ready :up:
Groundhog will be hearing some noise from the barn very soon. :teeth:
I got right at 84 CC . so the numbers we spoke about should work well..
Quote from: No Cents on May 20, 2016, 04:17:24 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 20, 2016, 03:04:46 AM
How about Ray and the higher powers agree to move the last few pages of posts to a new thread and leave the rest of this thread right where it is. Ray will no doubt get this running one way or another and in the end there will be someones high performance heads, tech info and dyno charts posted right here to complete this thread.
Eric...they can move, delete, or do what they want with this thread. It's the mods choice. I really don't care one way or the other.
As far as this thing with Fred goes...I'm not going to bash him or anyone else for that matter. Yes...my plans had to change...but I will get my engine back together and be able to once again do what I enjoy most...go riding.
With the recent changes I've had to do I have no expectations of what this engine will do now...and I have no plans of posting tech or graphs of it. It will just be a rider.
Glad it looks like you will be up and running soon.
For what it is worth I have waited longer than this for custom heads, cases, and other parts from most of the big names out there, a couple of them have fancy catalogs and everything. What has always been the determining factor for me was the outcome, if they meet or exceed the promised goals the memory of the waiting always fades. If they were late and then can't deliver the parts or get the parts and no power well they just failed miserably.
Can't wait to see the you tube of you up and running.
Looking forward to hearing the bikes back up and running. :up:
well parts have been there for 9 minutes now.. Fire in the hole :hyst:
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 20, 2016, 01:14:09 PM
well parts have been there for 9 minutes now.. Fire in the hole :hyst:
:hyst:
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 20, 2016, 01:18:33 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on May 20, 2016, 01:14:09 PM
well parts have been there for 9 minutes now.. Fire in the hole :hyst:
:hyst:
he must be busy baking cookies? If he is im sure he is being very technical about it so lets leave the thread here! :up:
preheat oven to 400
.005 layer of grease on cooking pan.
spatula must be clean and have less then .001 run out.
Man, the thread up and running again in a positive direction is music to my ears. I've missed the banter and all the talk of what it should make and this and that! Great stuff once again! Thanks.
Running by dinner time. Cookies for desert.
You suppose he's still in the garage, or is it drinkin time?
I think we should have all pitched in for a live web cam in Rays shop......... :hyst:
Well maybe not........ :emoGroan: we all have your back Ray......... :up: in one way or another
And no web cam in the Kitchen...... :hyst: I just could not handle that
please...no web cams...there are things that go on out in that barn that don't need to be aired. :hyst:
I ended up one valve seal short of getting it fired up today. So this is how it sits until I get the needed valve seal. I spent all morning running around to every indy shop and automotive parts store looking for the seal. Of course nobody had what I needed so I order some from Jeg's.
[attach=0]
Aw, the sound of wrenches clanging and the smell of assembly lube in the air. Nothing like it in the world except for the sound of that first crack of the cylinders firing.
Looking good Ray ! Hope you get back on the road soon :chop:
What type of valve seal do you need Ray?
a 530 Viton seal for a 5/16" valve
[attach=0]
Ray these aren't viton, but will get you going if you don't wait want to wait. You can get these at HD. Their 0.530" for 5/16 stems. I mean you won't be keeping the heads on probably more them than this season. :wink:
18046-98
[attach=0]
I probably have some stashed somewhere.Do you want me to look?
thanks guys! :up:
Jeg's usually gets my order to me in 2 days...so I think I will have them by mid week. A couple more days isn't going to kill me now that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Ray
Well that's the spirit! :up:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No problem.If you change your mind they're yours foc, just let me know.
I would buy one from you if you have one...or I can replace it next week sometime.
If you do have one...let me know if it isn't too much trouble.
Ray
for those that might be curious...here is what Big Boyz calculator comes up with for this combo.
[attach=0]
Quote from: No Cents on May 21, 2016, 05:55:50 PM
for those that might be curious...here is what Big Boyz calculator comes up with for this combo.
[attach=0]
Should be a ripper ray! Those 640s will be angry there!
Check the 640 timing, curious what you come up with. Are you using stock TB seals to seal up that taller 124"?
Ray pm me your ph#.I think I have them.
pm sent.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on May 21, 2016, 06:14:47 PM
Check the 640 timing, curious what you come up with. Are you using stock TB seals to seal up that taller 124"?
I don't have a degree wheel. :emsad:
I run the 66mm T/Hog and it uses the SE flanges and seals...same as the 58mm.
I use a dab of bearing grease on the seals so they can slide around while I line the t/body up. I guess I've been lucky and never had an intake leak issue.
added later:
thanks for looking for the seal Steve! :up:
I LOVE THE HEAD TAG, "BARN BUILT". WHAT'S THE REAR HEAD SAY?
[attach=0]
LOVE IT! NOW GET BACK TO WORK.
I'm dead in the water until the valve seals I ordered show up. :emsad:
LOL, I tried to order a couple head badges but the guy screwed me out of the money & never sent the badges......
~John
I THOUGHT THERE WERE COOKIES TO BE MADE?? :wink:
Ray- my 124 in the dyna is at the same company using those cams. Real interested in seeing where they end up numbers wise.
Quote from: No Cents on May 21, 2016, 05:55:50 PM
for those that might be curious...here is what Big Boyz calculator comes up with for this combo.
[attach=0]
(12.2/1 comp.) Do you think your going to have trouble running your compression this high? Do you use octane booster, or can you run regular with this kind of comp.?
10.05 corrected seems too high for me, even on 93 octane gas. Engine runs hot, can't handle much timing advance in the tune, sluggish throttle response from reduced timing but looks great on a SAE dyno curve. Our California gas is limited to less than that. Might be asking for trouble here Ray! Just saying!!!!
Regards,
-A-
Ray, with the tuner you have working on the bike, I wouldn't worry about it. I have been at 10.0 corrected for the last 37K miles on California fuel on my 120 with no problems what so ever. not with heat or pinging. I had even bought a box of booster additive when I built the motor and have not had to use it yet but have given them away to guy's with less compression and lousy tunes. Some guys are just afraid of a little bit of compression.
Correct John :up: Chad Groves (Harleytuner) had his street bike at 225ccp, rode it everywhere.
OK Guys, just wanted to mention the idea. Combustion help and fuel propagation matters a lot here. Just saying! But personally I would not do it myself.
-Regards, -Tutt
it's got life again!
1st heat cycle is done. It doesn't like the previous map that I had in it with the 640's and Fred's heads with the 60lb injectors.
I did change to a smaller injector than what I had in it before, and combined with these different heads...it will need to be tuned pretty quickly. I had to hold the throttle to keep it running on the 1st heat cycle. When it gets down to around 1000 rpm it wants to stumble...but with a little throttle it catchs and rev's fast. I tried to hold the 1st heat cycle between 1250- 1500 rpm's for about one minute. I'm going to do one more heat cycle tonight and let it cool over night and then I will do a ccp test tomorrow.
I will have to hand it this...for it sitting for 6 months...as soon as I hit the starter button it fired right up...instantly.
I hope that it will tune in nicely and not give me any problems this summer.
[/quote]
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 25, 2016, 04:06:26 PM
Correct John :up: Chad Groves (Harleytuner) had his street bike at 225ccp, rode it everywhere.
I would talk to Chad again, he had a vision screen on his handle bars with 5 different mapped tunes on it and had to go from tune to tune depending on what gas he used. Also keep in mind Chad is a tuner that owns a dyno.
Just saying....... I'm at 11.48:1 static and 9.60:1 corrected on my 124" 640 cam bike with 201 CCP @ sea level and it's pinging away. Just had to drop it back off at the tuner to get it straightened out.
Quote from: No Cents on May 25, 2016, 04:49:14 PM
it's got life again!
1st heat cycle is done. It doesn't like the previous map that I had in it with the 640's and Fred's heads with the 60lb injectors.
I did change to a smaller injector than what I had in it before, and combined with these different heads...it will need to be tuned pretty quickly. I had to hold the throttle to keep it running on the 1st heat cycle. When it gets down to around 1000 rpm it wants to stumble...but with a little throttle it catchs and rev's fast. I tried to hold the 1st heat cycle between 1250- 1500 rpm's for about one minute. I'm going to do one more heat cycle tonight and let it cool over night and then I will do a ccp test tomorrow.
I will have to hand it this...for it sitting for 6 months...as soon as I hit the starter button it fired right up...instantly.
I hope that it will tune in nicely and not give me any problems this summer.
are you using easy start cams?
no ez starts...just factory ACR's.
Quote from: gabbyduffy on May 25, 2016, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 25, 2016, 04:06:26 PM
I would talk to Chad again, he had a vision screen on his handle bars with 5 different mapped tunes on it and had to go from tune to tune depending on what gas he used. Also keep in mind Chad is a tuner that owns a dyno.
Just saying....... I'm at 11.48:1 static and 9.60:1 corrected on my 124" 640 cam bike with 201 CCP @ sea level and it's pinging away. Just had to drop it back off at the tuner to get it straightened out.
Not to get Ray's thread off track, but yes I did have a, vision permanently mounted to the dash on my bike. I ran 4 tunes for different fuels. The bike was always tuned with a,SEPST though, I just pulled the tunes into the Vision so I could switch MAPs easily and monitor vitals with the Vision. The bike is a .020 over 110 at 11.1:1 comp with GMR 577 cams. Cranks 225 FR & 228 RR. knock wasn't an issue with 93 octane. Bike makes 127hp and 128trq. 118 trq at 2k and never goes below 110.
Quote from: harleytuner on May 25, 2016, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: gabbyduffy on May 25, 2016, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 25, 2016, 04:06:26 PM
I would talk to Chad again, he had a vision screen on his handle bars with 5 different mapped tunes on it and had to go from tune to tune depending on what gas he used. Also keep in mind Chad is a tuner that owns a dyno.
Just saying....... I'm at 11.48:1 static and 9.60:1 corrected on my 124" 640 cam bike with 201 CCP @ sea level and it's pinging away. Just had to drop it back off at the tuner to get it straightened out.
Not to get Ray's thread off track, but yes I did have a, vision permanently mounted to the dash on my bike. I ran 4 tunes for different fuels. The bike was always tuned with a,SEPST though, I just pulled the tunes into the Vision so I could switch MAPs easily and monitor vitals with the Vision. The bike is a .020 over 110 at 11.1:1 comp with GMR 577 cams. Cranks 225 FR & 228 RR. knock wasn't an issue with 93 octane. Bike makes 127hp and 128trq. 118 trq at 2k and never goes below 110.
:up: :up:
Nice!
Quote from: No Cents on May 25, 2016, 04:49:14 PM
it's got life again!
1st heat cycle is done. It doesn't like the previous map that I had in it with the 640's and Fred's heads with the 60lb injectors.
I did change to a smaller injector than what I had in it before, and combined with these different heads...it will need to be tuned pretty quickly. I had to hold the throttle to keep it running on the 1st heat cycle. When it gets down to around 1000 rpm it wants to stumble...but with a little throttle it catchs and rev's fast. I tried to hold the 1st heat cycle between 1250- 1500 rpm's for about one minute. I'm going to do one more heat cycle tonight and let it cool over night and then I will do a ccp test tomorrow.
I will have to hand it this...for it sitting for 6 months...as soon as I hit the starter button it fired right up...instantly.
I hope that it will tune in nicely and not give me any problems this summer.
Glad to hear that Ray. Do you have the MAP from the CR651 cams? Maybe that's closer till a tune?
I checked for codes after the 1st heat cycle and found a PO107 code. Map sensor open/low.
I unplugged the map sensor and hit it and the plug with the compressor a few times. I gave it a dab of electrical grease and plugged it on and off a few times.
The next heat cycle it ran a little better and I was able to let it go thru it's warm up step and it came down to 1000 rpm's this time and it didn't stumble.
At least it's down off the lift.
[attach=0]
Good to hear you are back in business Ray :up:
I know you will have your compression and ccp covered
We know you like to push the limits
You are not one of the sheep
Nothing like hearing that motor roar again! Congrats Ray!
Nice it lives and shakes the ground. I can only imagine how good you feel rite now. Now go get it tuned and ride the "Potty mouth" out of it. :chop:
Great news to hear Ray. Nothing better than that first ride of the season, no matter when it happens.
Quote from: Just Nick on May 25, 2016, 06:36:18 PM
Nice it lives and shakes the ground. I can only imagine how good you feel rite now. Now go get it tuned and ride the "Potty mouth" out of it. :chop:
Nick...that is exactly my plans! :up:
I will know what it cranks for ccp's tomorrow. I plan on doing a leak down test to it also.
The compression is higher than what I would of wanted...but beggers can't be choosers. The heads that Steve was kind enough to sent me will get me by I hope for rest of this riding season. I think if the engine is close to what the Big Boyz calculator is telling me...the 640's should like the extra compression shot to them. I think I was at like 11.8 on my last combo with the 640's.
I did check for codes after the 2nd heat cycle...and there were none.
added later:
thank you men! :up:
It sure does feel good to know I might be riding in the next few weeks. :teeth:
Congrats Ray :bike: May not be exactly what you wanted but your gonna be back in the saddle! amazing the kinds of folks on these boards :beer:
Be safe,Travis
:up: :up:
Ray,
Would really like to hear that baby idling with those cams and compression.
Got any thing for us?
:up: :up: :chop:
Quote from: johncr on May 26, 2016, 10:23:51 AM
Ray,
Would really like to hear that baby idling with those cams and compression.
Got any thing for us?
it's headed in the morning for a trip to Mattoon, Illinois to be tuned.
I'll make a little video of it once I get it back if you'd really like to hear what it sounds like.
It sounded pretty much the same to me as it did before. :nix:
And on a side note Ray just called me and said stop by on the way home from work and pick up a fresh batch of cookies and I'm sure he will have no problem walking out to the barn and firing up copperhead :koolaid:
Great to hear Ray,We are Glad for you,Now you can get your therapy............ :SM:
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 26, 2016, 01:31:48 PM
And on a side note Ray just called me and said stop by on the way home from work and pick up a fresh batch of cookies and I'm sure he will have no problem walking out to the barn and firing up copperhead :koolaid:
:up: :up:
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 26, 2016, 01:31:48 PM
And on a side note Ray just called me and said stop by on the way home from work and pick up a fresh batch of cookies and I'm sure he will have no problem walking out to the barn and firing up copperhead :koolaid:
hey don't eat them all. he promised me some chocolate chips :angry:
"No Cents Cookies" does have a ring to it. Maybe a good start-up company. Betting he could find some investors here! :teeth:
Just to keep this still technical I did find a very good article by Denish on compression in Harley's. Ray will get it done no matter what as he has very talented people on his side. But its still a good read and worth a look for sure for all of us.
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/optimizing-your-harleys-engine-efficiency (http://www.hotbikeweb.com/optimizing-your-harleys-engine-efficiency)
Regards, -Tutt
I'm ready to pull out in the morning for Mattoon.
Jim...I got you some of them chocolate chips cookies coming along for the ride too. :wink: Randy said he is getting fat eating them. I see I'm going to have to quite making cookies. :hyst:
[attach=0]
After all the HP is discovered we'll get to hear about the boingers.
I wouldn't compress the suspension until I was ready to hit the road but that's just me, don't think it matters and definitely better to leave it compressed overnight than to drive off without sucking it down.
Can we have a close up of that front wheel chock Ray ?
Or tell us which one it is and I'll get a close up look at it :teeth:
Quote from: No Cents on May 26, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
I'm ready to pull out in the morning for Mattoon.
Jim...I got you some of them chocolate chips cookies coming along for the ride too. :wink: Randy said he is getting fat eating them. I see I'm going to have to quite making cookies. :hyst:
[attachimg= Ray getting fat my ass don't you mean fatter, I am very happy that you're riding season is finally beginning but also kind of sad that your baking skills won't be used as much but I do have a Plan B before you know it I will have Vicky making some of her homemade pies yummy :hyst:
Quote from: groundhog143 on May 27, 2016, 03:21:26 AM
Quote from: No Cents on May 26, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
I'm ready to pull out in the morning for Mattoon.
Jim...I got you some of them chocolate chips cookies coming along for the ride too. :wink: Randy said he is getting fat eating them. I see I'm going to have to quite making cookies. :hyst:
[attachimg= Ray getting fat my ass don't you mean fatter, I am very happy that you're riding season is finally beginning but also kind of sad that your baking skills won't be used as much but I do have a Plan B before you know it I will have Vicky making some of her homemade pies yummy :hyst:
It is Ray's top secret plan 2, feed you enough cookies to slow you down. :hyst:
:agree:
Ray,
and here I was going to send you a fatassed 12 Ultra to give you something to work on just to keep you out of the kitchen...
Good luck!
Mark
the bike made it to Mattoon, Illinois today for the Strokerjlk touch.
Funny thing about it is after the bike being on the lift for 6 months, I hit rain just before Indy and drove in it for an hour. Six months of cleaning on it went down the drain in the matter of minutes. :hyst:
Well of course you hit rain! The final insult to this whole ordeal. Good luck with the tune, I know you're looking forward to it.
It's like bird poo on a freshly waxed car, it's good luck Ray. :up:
an enclosed trailer would of saved the day. :hyst:
It thru the code P0505 (lose of idle speed control) at the end of each time it got fired up at the house before taking it to Jim.
Randy came over yesterday to hear it and we checked for any leaks around the flanges, and it has a brand new IAC sensor in it...so I was kind of scratching my head. :scratch:
So Jim rolled it up on the dyno and hooked it up to his laptop and fired it up and he saw that the IAC sensor was working and it didn't appear to have any intake leaks with the numbers he was seeing on the laptop. I'm hoping it's just the matter of dialing it in with the different injectors and heads.
:pop:
it was still spitting that P0505 code out when Jim called me yesterday evening. He changed the injectors and apparently my battery has took a dump. I asked him if he could put one of his batteries in my bike to see if that eliminated the code from being thrown. I haven't heard back from him yet. That battery was a little over a year old and it was off and on the charger all winter long. It showed 13.1 volts...but apparently when trying to start the bike the voltage drops a bunch when load is thrown on it. I'm hoping this is the problem for the code it's giving.
I did go out and buy a new battery for it yesterday after Jim told me yesterday morning that he had to keep charging it to get the bike to start. It's just my luck...I was hoping for everything to go smooth...but that can't never happen for me. :banghead:
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 26, 2016, 08:44:01 PM
Can we have a close up of that front wheel chock Ray ?
Or tell us which one it is and I'll get a close up look at it :teeth:
it's not a store bought wheel chock.
It's just some metal I bent up and mounted to the trailer to keep the front tire straight after the bike is strapped down. I put a 1" X 4" board on each side of the front tire so it can't move from side to side.
The old girl is just throwing a hissy fit because she hasnt been rode all year ! It will all come together soon Ray !
I like the RAYMOND RD. sign....... :SM:
FYI everybody loves Raymond........... :potstir: Hang it there Ray,if it was easy well you know the rest of the story,Just keep on Pluggin away....... :wink:
Keep us updated
Quote from: No Cents on May 29, 2016, 04:26:37 AM
That battery was a little over a year old and it was off and on the charger all winter long. It showed 13.1 volts...but apparently when trying to start the bike the voltage drops a bunch when load is thrown on it.
Another dead Deka? With short service life and only surface voltage?
it was the Big Crank battery.
yes...with only one light season on it. :banghead:
Any warranty left on that battery? Frustrating, but hell, a pretty minor issue all things considered.
no...it had a one year warranty and I just went out to the barn and went thru me receipts.
I bought it 16 months ago.
I'm hoping and praying that the bad battery is why it's been throwing the P0505 code.
Jim told me yesterday that he cleared the code out and he decided to just turn the key on for a minute after he had unplugged the battery from the charger...and the code appeared again...even without starting the bike.
So...I'm guessing we are on the right track now knowing the battery is bad.
Ray the code is for ldle speed control I have never seen a p0505 code for a battery being bad usually means something with the throttle actuator but I have seen stranger things happen. I hope it is because of the battery but if you end up needing a throttle body to swap the electronics out on let me know I can ship one to jim so he can get it going and you on the road. Lets hope its the damn battery
I found out after doing a little research that the battery can not drop below 9 volts...if it does it can display the P0505 code.
Other symptoms were an intake leak, leaking or bad injectors, and sumping will also cause the same code.
I got my fingers crossed that this was the problem.
[attach=0]
You Beat me too it I am at the shop tuning to and grabbed a service manual and read that also so I came back to tell you that but you got me
How could the battery matter when they typically charge over 14v running? Put a meter on it. Check for air leaks first. I am not saying the battery isn't suspect just not likely the root cause unless the charging system is not working
Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 30, 2016, 07:39:07 AM
How could the battery matter when they typically charge over 14v running? Put a meter on it. Check for air leaks first. I am not saying the battery isn't suspect just not likely the root cause unless the charging system is not working
Pick the battery out of the list simply because you think the everything else is OK is pretty funny.. I would suspect that the issue is simply a tune need to be done.. The error code is tossed because the ECU can't get a stable idle with a tune that is off.. Sure it could be something problem with assembly or weak battery, bad sensor / mechanism, but simply not enough or too much fuel at idle can cause the issue also.. The ECU don't know any different about the fuel required. It assumes the information in the table is correct.. Now a full time closed loop system can figure it out after a few engine cycles.. :wink:
I agree but would check the basics first just to get them off the table.
With all the parts that changed especially injectors no doubt the tune is jacked.
we know the battery is bad. It will start the bike just once with it being freshly charged. The volt gauge will read the full 14 volts once the bike is running...but turn the bike off and try to re-start it and it will just click, click, click. Throw it back on the charger and let it charge up and it will start the bike only once.
I only started the bike three times at the house. It instantly fired up each time. The battery stayed hooked up to the charger the whole time I did the three heat cycles. The bike did idle pretty rough on the 1st heat cycle...but the last two it seemed to idle much better. Randy and I did spray carb cleaner around the intake flanges on the last heat cycle and we didn't think it was leaking...but like I said the bike idled rough...so it could still be possible it is leaking around the flanges and we just couldn't tell for sure because the tune seemed so far off.
If Jim is kind enough and he puts one of his batteries in it to see if it clears up we can eliminate the battery then. He already tested to see that the new map sensor was working while I was there. So we can rule it out. If it does it again with a different battery in it...my guess is I'm going to have to make a trip to Mattoon and see if I can figure it out. I don't expect Jim to have to trouble shoot my bike.
Are you referring to MAP sensor? TBW has no IAC.
Batteries with opens between cells will present like that.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 30, 2016, 09:50:23 AM
Are you referring to MAP sensor? TBW has no IAC.
Batteries with opens between cells will present like that.
yes...I meant to say map sensor. :doh:
So, is it all better?
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 31, 2016, 06:51:46 PM
So, is it all better?
yes. Ray came over and changed the map sensor. he is on his way home ,with a smile. :chop:
That is great news! What did it turn on the dyno?
I wasn't worried about any dyno numbers with the donor heads...but it still managed to make 150hp.
That's plenty good enough to put me back in the wind. :party:
...and it was a bad map sensor...even though it was a new one.
Woo Hoo! I would imagine today is ride day. I would also think the wife knows better than to ask you to do some chores for the next few.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: Time to ride , forget about the rest, heck even left the lawn get out of control some..
Congrats Ray. Time to ride down to wherever your original heads are sitting and get them back.
Zach
thanks men! :up:
I'll be in the wind as soon as I type this. :teeth:
It went 152/140 sae...so this will get me by now for sure.
Thank you for the tune Jim! :up:
...and thank you Steve for the heads. :up: :up: :up:
I'm waisting time typing...and need to finally get in the wind.
:up: :up:
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2016, 06:50:28 AM
thanks men! :up:
I'll be in the wind as soon as I type this. :teeth:
It went 152/140 sae...so this will get me by now for sure.
Thank you for the tune Jim! :up:
...and thank you Steve for the heads. :up: :up: :up:
I'm waisting time typing...and need to finally get in the wind.
Allrightythen!! :up: :up: :up:
:up: :up: :up: :up:
:up: :up:
Welcome back Ray.
Awesome!!!
I just put 100 miles on it :smilep: ...and then brought it home and up on the lift it went.
No...nothing bad...I just dumped the break in oil and put some fresh in. While it was up there on the lift I decided to change the three Bandit blue springs out to three grays (new silvers) and I set each gray spring up with just one shim under them to see how I like that on the next ride...which will be as soon as I wash my hands and get these shorts off and some jeans back on.
Oh...here is the biggest thing I noticed...and I'm amazed about it.
The Race Tech front suspension with the Super Shox on the back has put this bike on rails. It is simply amazing how well the bike handles now...it's a total package change.
Quote from: No Cents on June 01, 2016, 06:50:28 AM
thanks men! :up:
I'll be in the wind as soon as I type this. :teeth:
It went 152/140 sae...so this will get me by now for sure.
Thank you for the tune Jim! :up:
...and thank you Steve for the heads. :up: :up: :up:
I'm waisting time typing...and need to finally get in the wind.
Thank you
Glad your back in the wind Ray. You did have a 153/142 pull.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/2E98503B-0F6C-40D7-AE98-5BC887A259BF.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/2E98503B-0F6C-40D7-AE98-5BC887A259BF.jpg.html)
Very nice. :up: It looks like you have from 2500 to 3500 rpm to get your grip set. :dgust:
Real nice ! Great job Ray and Jim ! That should satisfy you for the summer :chop:
All that with "loaner" heads! :hyst: Amazing. Totally bad ass. Very nice TQ curve. Jim, just out of curiousity, how much max ignition timing was it able to take? Any 124 that can break 150 HP is totally impressive. :up: :up: :up: :koolaid1:
Regards,
-A-
640 cam
124 ci
hillside heads??
good exhaust
compression set where it should be angry
i would expect it to break the 150 mark!
maybe more with a better tunner :) :chop: :potstir:
nice job jim and ray
Quote from: Raleigh111 on June 01, 2016, 09:30:35 PM
640 cam
124 ci
hillside heads decked the heads to 84 cc that is what they did
good exhaust
compression set where it should be angry
i would expect it to break the 150 mark!
maybe more with a better tunner :) :chop: :potstir:
nice job jim and ray
to clarify about the heads.
The previous owner of the heads tried to do the port work himself...and Scott @ Hillside just milled the heads to where the owner wanted them.
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 06:27:27 AM
to clarify about the heads.
The previous owner of the heads tried to do the port work himself...and Scott @ Hillside just milled the heads to where the owner wanted them.
So they weren't really ported like Steve said originally?
Quote from: Raleigh111 on June 01, 2016, 09:30:35 PM
640 cam
124 ci
hillside heads??
good exhaust
compression set where it should be angry
i would expect it to break the 150 mark!
maybe more with a better tunner :) :chop: :potstir: My Thoughts exactly, Definitely more there
nice job jim and ray
Quote from: Max Headflow on June 02, 2016, 07:24:36 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 06:27:27 AM
to clarify about the heads.
The previous owner of the heads tried to do the port work himself...and Scott @ Hillside just milled the heads to where the owner wanted them.
So they weren't really ported like Steve said originally?
I cleaned up the heads as the DIY porting job by owner was extremely rough.. Think high speed air grinder and carbide cutter :nix:.. I spent a few hours doing the best I could with what I had to work with.
For those paying attention and want to see the 150's for Hp . The pipe is what pushed this over into the 150's
Would have been a another one of those mid 140's 124's without Rays barn built pipe . :beer:
Nice work Ray and Jim! And just a reminder that Ray's pipe is available as a production piece from Burns Stainless
http://www.exhaustengineer.com/community/press-releases/nhb-exhaust-for-harley-davidson (http://www.exhaustengineer.com/community/press-releases/nhb-exhaust-for-harley-davidson)
(http://www.exhaustengineer.com/images/burns/community/harley_exhaust_thumb.jpg)
Quote from: vincer77 on June 02, 2016, 09:23:40 AM
Nice work Ray and Jim! And just a reminder that Ray's pipe is available as a production piece from Burns Stainless
http://www.exhaustengineer.com/community/press-releases/nhb-exhaust-for-harley-davidson (http://www.exhaustengineer.com/community/press-releases/nhb-exhaust-for-harley-davidson)
(http://www.exhaustengineer.com/images/burns/community/harley_exhaust_thumb.jpg)
:up:
Vince , any chance you will be making a dyna pipe in the future ?
Ray did you order a spare rear tire... :wink:
GREAT post read!!! I wonder if anyone can convince my wife that another say another $2K or so would make me MORE happy? Love that Exhaust!!! U-Tube sound post yet?? Passing alarmed parked cars must sound like a flock of birds???
Quote from: 2006FXDCI on June 02, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
Vince , any chance you will be making a dyna pipe in the future ?
They have thought about a Dyna exhaust but Mid controls make it hard to get equal lengths.
The pipe Vince posted retails at $1699 FYI
The old heads vs the loaner heads .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/D3EC6E72-2CF1-4F4E-AFA2-AE53AD407F90_1.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/D3EC6E72-2CF1-4F4E-AFA2-AE53AD407F90_1.jpg.html)
that's a perfect example of no matter what combo I've ran with this pipe...the curves are almost identical.
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 10:46:42 AM
that's a perfect example of no matter what combo I've ran with this pipe...the curves are almost identical.
All right that's it get off the computer and get on the bike you have no business any ware but riding for the next few weeks. :kick: Go on get :chop: ing
it's raining right now...or I would be :cry:
Well if you not going to ride it,you must be out in the barn checkin the CCP :potstir:
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 11:13:32 AM
it's raining right now...or I would be :cry:
Time for a video than?
Quote from: strokerjlk on June 02, 2016, 10:10:54 AM
The old heads vs the loaner heads .
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/dyno%20sheets/D3EC6E72-2CF1-4F4E-AFA2-AE53AD407F90_1.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/dyno%20sheets/D3EC6E72-2CF1-4F4E-AFA2-AE53AD407F90_1.jpg.html)
It's a little odd that only the heads made the change equally across the board. I would have though that the better heads would have showed more up top and not so much on the bottom.. There is a greater improvement up top for sure. Was there anything else that changed? What would contribute to more power across the band? cams were the same? Compression ratio? Gear? Weather conditions?
84cc, domed pistons, 124"
Compression !
The air pump only has so much demand.
good heads, bad heads, loaner heads, they met the demand.
Max...the only change to this combo is the heads in that graph comparison.
Same exhaust, same pistons, same 640 cams, and same ratio rocker arms in both graphs.
Quote from: groundhog143 on June 02, 2016, 11:43:08 AM
Well if you not going to ride it,you must be out in the barn checkin the CCP :potstir:
nope...making lasagna for supper.
time to eat. :smilep:
[attach=0]
What difference is there in the heads, as in valve size, cc's and flow?
Quote from: johncr on June 02, 2016, 11:45:08 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 11:13:32 AM
it's raining right now...or I would be :cry:
Time for a video than?
here you go.
https://youtu.be/tiIV5ss7Q_I
Sounds "Stupid FAST"!! Mine just sounds "STUPID" :idunno:
That a trans temp gauge? Curious what you see as the norm for that?
Looks/Sounds great!
Dan those gauges are made by Jes Custom Accents. It's a very nice product.
In the extreme heat of the summer I seen the tranny temp as high as 220*...but normally it's seems to hover mostly around 210*.
Ray, is that -6 line for your head breathers?
yes...they go to a catch can that is mounted on the left down tube.
Quote from: Barrett on June 02, 2016, 03:38:38 PM
What difference is there in the heads, as in valve size, cc's and flow?
The current 110 heads cc'd @ 84.2cc's and they have the stock valves...and I have no idea what they flow.
The previous 110 heads were 91cc's with a 2.1" intake valve and a smaller 1.59" exhaust valve...and I never knew what they actually flowed either.
Ray, no one should accept heads that don't have flow numbers and sheets attached to them. Especially for a guy like you, that changes parts so often. If you need to ever sell them, you need numbers.
I was always suspect with Fred's heads, and what they flowed. There are so many ways to mount them on a flow bench, to make them make better numbers, it really confuses what us layman guys should think.
And even then, so what? Lets put it this way. You have maybe a set of 5 liter lungs, based upon measurement in a college lab (I am using my own example here). That is your lung capacity. Only one guy beat me and he was a swimmer and was 6' 3". I'm 5'6". OK, you can open your mouth up further and throat up farther, and get maybe a little more air down there quicker and sooner maybe, but at the end you still have 5 liter lungs.
Stop chasing flow numbers on a flow bench using predictive formula. Just get your heads back when you can. They seemed to work very well.
Regards,
Your -A-
not all head porters give flow sheets "A".
The heads Steve sent me will get me by. I just needed to get my engine back together so I could ride.
As far as the heads that Fred did for me...and was apparently re-doing...I will just wait and see if they show up someday.
At least I'm able to ride now.
Ray, I don't think I would do business with a head porter who did not give me flow sheets personally. I very much want you to able to ride. Regarding Fred, his rep is not so good now. He does have skills I think, VERY GOOD skills, I think. But too many other issues interfere with him doing a good job IMHO. Regards, -A-
Thanks Ray, that sounds awesome!
A friend of mine is getting very interested in one of those pipes for his 131.
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
Quote from: johncr on June 02, 2016, 11:45:08 AM
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 11:13:32 AM
it's raining right now...or I would be :cry:
Time for a video than?
here you go.
https://youtu.be/tiIV5ss7Q_I
Dan Baisley did my MVA heads and doesn't offer flow info unless you ask for it. Why would someone second guess him? We discussed my build recipe (which he was already familiar with because he had a hand in doing a similar development for a speed shop). He said he'd pull some extra flow out but was more intent on larger valves, corrected rockers and port shape. I asked him for "some" indication so I would know where they were at for future mod considerations. He was happy to do it for those reasons. I didn't get a sheet but he hand wrote the numbers for me on my job spec sheet.
Judging from some of Fred's performance jobs (like the 120 Hemi Engineering / JBV Racing bike) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtynTZSMZXM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtynTZSMZXM) he is likely an artist. Those kind of people dance to their own drum and if you are patient the odds are the finished product will be his latest best. With that set of loaner heads you can distract yourself with riding (and maybe practicing your launches and stuff for that day. Or not and just put some miles on for a change.
Quote from: No Cents on June 02, 2016, 06:11:31 PM
Dan those gauges are made by Jes Custom Accents. It's a very nice product.
In the extreme heat of the summer I seen the tranny temp as high as 220*...but normally it's seems to hover mostly around 210*.
I talked to a guy that claimed to make the gears for Baker at their booth in Sturgis either 7 or 10 years back. He said the transmission sees mid 200's in temp. and was very adamant about using 75w-140 not 75w90 in the transmission. FWIW
I've been running 75W140 synthetic in the tranny since I bought the bike new back in 2008.
I've only had these Jes gauges for a couple of years...and 220* is the hottest I've ever seen the tranny gauge.
Ray although I have not been posting on this very long thread I have been paying attention. I also did a 124" build last winter and love my results (for a carb bike) and I just want to say great job to all involved with your build. :up: :up:
thank you Wes! :up:
I've put a few hundred miles on the bike so far and it runs like a scalded dog when you flog on it. :smilep: Above 3500 rpms she takes off. The hottest the engine oil temps have shown is 210*.
Jim asked me if I did a ccp check on it yet so I just did.
I'm kind of scratching my head right now. :scratch:
I pulled the tank and manually disabled the compression releases and held the buttery fly all the way open and the throttle too.
They were close to each other...but way lower than I expected.
This is what they read.
front
[attach=0]
rear
[attach=1]
It's going to rain around here for the next few days so I plan on doing a leak down test on it in the morning and use a different gauge to do another ccp check to see what it reads.
Both plugs look to be burning perfect.
Uh yeah, something very amiss here. I doubt your making 150 HP with that low a CCP even with that nice pipe of yours. -A-
Are you doing your tests on a cold engine?
the engine was warm when I did it.
I will try in the morning again.
-A- ...it's strong as can be. I know it's pretty strong after I pounded on it pretty hard today. I think it's a safe bet it's got 150hp.
The back tire isn't liking me right now after the abuse I put it thru today. :hyst:
Not doubting Jim's numbers at all. I already asked this question to Stroker Jim but got no answer. What was the max ignition timing advance and at what rpm this engine was tuned at???? Might shed some light here, especially with your very low CCP findings Ray. Just saying. It still rips at the end of the day for sure!!!! Not trying to tear down your temporary build, it is STOUT! But something not adding up here. Probably more in this build as others have already said.
Regards,
-A-
Tomorrow will tell me the story.
You know me...if it isn't right...I'll find out why and hopefully find the cure.
You know, if you keep checking things, you're just going to find something wrong. Quit checking, ignore little strange sounds, and just ride. That has served me well for many thousands of miles.
Just trying to help....
Quote from: No Cents on June 03, 2016, 06:27:16 PM
I've put a few hundred miles on the bike so far and it runs like a scalded dog when you flog on it. :smilep: Above 3500 rpms she takes off. The hottest the engine oil temps have shown is 210*.
Jim asked me if I did a ccp check on it yet so I just did.
I'm kind of scratching my head right now. :scratch:
I pulled the tank and manually disabled the compression releases and held the buttery fly all the way open and the throttle too.
They were close to each other...but way lower than I expected.
This is what they read.
front
[attach=0]
rear
[attach=1]
It's going to rain around here for the next few days so I plan on doing a leak down test on it in the morning and use a different gauge to do another ccp check to see what it reads.
Both plugs look to be burning perfect.
at least the ccp is even now. lower but even
There is no way that guage is correct. Not with the way it runs and with the numbers it made. Skip the leak down and get a different guage to use
Might need new valve core for compression gauge, not tire core. Generic link: http://www.napaonline.com/p/BK_7009556 (http://www.napaonline.com/p/BK_7009556)
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 03, 2016, 06:59:41 PM
Are you doing your tests on a cold engine?
:scratch:
If it were hot it would be higher then cold..
Compression release cams?
Quote from: johncr on June 03, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
Compression release cams?
That was my thought, ez start 640's
nope...non EZ start cams.
Is the engine ticking/ clatter ( like rocker hitting lid or spring retainer) ?? Fouling plugs ?? ( too rich washed cylinder down, rings upside down etc Not stating any thing is what is going on ) if not just ride it .. You now what the chamber is for volume, short of the engine not sealing again , and it would have to be pretty bad for that low of CCP reading. So performance would be off, and creating other issues.. Throw all of the tools in a box for the riding season and put a time lock on it Set it for OCT HA HA
You spent the time to make sure it put together right , so ride the wheels off it and enjoy the summer..
Ray, do I need to come get them tool box keys again? :smiled:
I just hope the tune didn't screw the engine up and wash the cylinders
Ray, I don't get it.
I may not be the sharpest tool but I recall you going into great detail how a street / racing motor should have leak and compression checks done all through its life and now after the tune this pops up? Same with the importance of a proper tune before riding. I sincerely hope this is only a mild malady and you can continue on without any more down time.
I had a brand new snap on compression gauge cause me to tear down a Waukesha engine once, only to find nothing wrong. Since that time, I've got 3 different compression kits in my box. Probably just the valve cores bad, but gauges get knocked around. I prefer snap on and Mac gauges, but can happen to any brand for sure. Hope that's all it is :up:
Ray to me a super easy test would be unplug the ACR's and try to start the motor. With the +4cc pistons you have the the small cc's in the heads, it should be near 220 ccp? It should crank over really hard. If the compression is truly where the gauge shows, it'll spin over like crazy.
ACRS are not always trouble free but both cylinders low and an equal amount is interesting.
Simple, the shrader valve is pooched on the gauge. Clean it with solvent.
Ron
Put the tools away and ride the F'ing bike!
I bought a 12 street glide a few weeks ago from a Harley dealer and I was told that it was ready to go checked out completely. I dove the bike and it ran ok. To be honest never owned a fast Harley. I bought it and got home the shifter lever was about to fall off. I was little ticked at this point . I bought a stainless steel lever off the net . I went back to the dealer to have a chat about that and was showed the sheet that had the inspection. I just about lost it when I saw the compression on both cylinders , I asked wtf they ran the compression with the compression releases active was the reason for the low compression. I have no idea how to compare that reading to a standard compression. Bikes runs ok and does not use oil or makes any unusual noise . I plan on a top end this winter any way. Glad you got the bike running good Ray
NO ONE wants to buy a "mystery motor" that they had the balls to buy. The head porters out there who don't offer a flow sheet with their heads, really cheat the new buyer. How do you run simulations to match the cams specs to head flow if you don't know how your heads flow??? Its a primary requirement. How do you sell your motor to the next guy, if you yourself don't even have any idea what the build specs were, and what the tolerances are? And someone else is just supposed to bend over, and gamble on what you did, when you yourself don't even know what was done???? Be prepared to take a big hit, pennies on the dollar for your engine build, if you don't have the specifications to back it up. and maybe even run it on some sims.
You just threw away countless dollars if you have to sell the motor someday with the bike. Just saying.... Get the specs!!!!!
Regards,
-Tutt
-A-...I'm not worried about a flow sheet with these heads. I don't think I would ever consider selling this engine either. So no other person would have to be concerned about getting flow data.
I just had to run some errands and I had to make three different stops so I decided to take the bike. The bike ran flawlessly and it actually seems to be the smoothest it has ever ran. It runs cool (oil temp was 212*) after the 50 miles I just put on it and it started instantly when I hit the button every time. I can't ask for much more than that right now. I'm just happy to have the opportunity to be in the wind. :chop:
Well Ray what did the ccp retest at I know you have had enough time to find out.
Cowboy flow sheets are one part of a build and I have never ran across any one who would not buy a bike that is built because there is no flow sheet obvesly there is a dyno sheet and that is more than enough. There are a lot of proven head porters out there that don't do flow sheets and that is not enough for me to get bent like you and not use there services these guys know there "Potty mouth" screw a piece of paper. After all the dyno will prove it. And if some a hole don't want to buy a bike because no paper work from the head porter o well screw him there is a lot of buyers out there. And no matter what you do to these bikes it's penny on the dollars you never get you full investment back. You are relie to much on paper work when the final results speak for them selfs I have done plenty of build knowing there would be no data from the head guy but we communicate about everything and the results were what was expected or better these guys don't want there secrets out there and I don't blame them
Quote from: Just Nick on June 05, 2016, 08:23:52 AM
Cowboy flow sheets are one part of a build and I have never ran across any one who would not buy a bike that is built because there is no flow sheet obvesly there is a dyno sheet and that is more than enough. There are a lot of proven head porters out there that don't do flow sheets and that is not enough for me to get bent like you and not use there services these guys know there "Potty mouth" screw a piece of paper. After all the dyno will prove it. And if some a hole don't want to buy a bike because no paper work from the head porter o well screw him there is a lot of buyers out there. And no matter what you do to these bikes it's penny on the dollars you never get you full investment back. You are relie to much on paper work when the final results speak for them selfs I have done plenty of build knowing there would be no data from the head guy but we communicate about everything and the results were what was expected or better these guys don't want there secrets out there and I don't blame them
:up: :up: :up: Some like bragging rights Nick, they won't actually race anyone. It's a way to puff your chest on the forums, not the street or track.
Quote from: rbabos on June 04, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
Simple, the shrader valve is pooched on the gauge. Clean it with solvent.
Ron
I am with you Ron
I supply all the specifications but that said fixturing is enough to blow the flow numbers in terms of lab accuracy. Even if the other benches are calibrated with plates as mine is a slightly different setup can cause variances. Then there are the wacky numbers that float around on the net that are definitely fake or the guy doesn't know how to calibrate the bench. Easy to spot when a guy says he is flowing 400cfm@28" through a 1.8" inlet head.
Vic once told me when I was quoting internet flow number to him.
"That paper will lay right still so anybody can write anything they want on it."
Ray glad you are up and running. If someone want to see your flow sheet, show them your tail light instead.
"If someone want to see your flow sheet, show them your tail light instead."
:agree: :up: :up: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Hey Ray the heads I gave you flow about -50 CFM at 900 lift . :hyst: :potstir:
Quote from: kd on June 05, 2016, 09:04:10 AM
"If someone want to see your flow sheet, show them your tail light instead."
:agree: :up: :up: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
I just got back from a little putt...a little over 100 miles I put on it so far today.
This thing is like the best medicine in the world for me. It runs fantastic...no pm's any where...and I've bounced it off the rev limiter many times so far. :wink:
Nick...I'll get you a ccp test pretty soon. Right now it's not going back on the lift until it's ready for an oil change. At the rate I'm going it won't be long before an oil change will be due. I'll do one then for you.
:speaker:
Hear You Loud n Clear Ray.....
I was only Down a week n a half with my Electrical Problem and I was KRANKY....... I even had a dirt bike ride and a Sportster ride in that time span BUT Nothing fixes my Temperament Like My KING... :scratch:
Glad you got er out... A BIG :SM:
signed....BUBBIE
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 05, 2016, 09:14:04 AM
Hey Ray the heads I gave you flow about -50 CFM at 900 lift . :hyst: :potstir:
So is this at 28"? You better be specific or Max will be on your case. He's a detail guy. :potstir:
Quote from: No Cents on June 05, 2016, 10:51:12 AM
Quote from: kd on June 05, 2016, 09:04:10 AM
"If someone want to see your flow sheet, show them your tail light instead."
:agree: :up: :up: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
I just got back from a little putt...a little over 100 miles I put on it so far today.
This thing is like the best medicine in the world for me. It runs fantastic...no pm's any where...and I've bounced it off the rev limiter many times so far. :wink:
Nick...I'll get you a ccp test pretty soon. Right now it's not going back on the lift until it's ready for an oil change. At the rate I'm going it won't be long before an oil change will be due. I'll do one then for you.
Congrats on getting back in the wind Ray.
Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk
Great news to hear that you are out on the open road. I got fed up with being on the curb so I bought a second bike so that these issues won't happen in the future.
I did the same as Jam. Having a 2nd bike or "back up" bike, really helped although I waited too long to purchase one.
As to the claims that wanting a flow sheet is somehow related to "bragging rights" that's so untrue and out of left field its ridiculous. A dyno curve can also not be a very reliable measurement of what an engine produces as some dyno's are pretty happy by 10-12%.
I know of 3 engines that were designed by 3 different head porters using predictive software as a starting point and they compared the flow sheets of the heads to cam selection, then beta tested it with actual dyno numbers from reputable operators. Earl Burley, Don Dorfman, and Randy at Speed Wrench in CO (Randy is unfortunately out of business). All 3 of these talented individuals designe killer motors.
I actually consider the flow sheets confidential between me and my head porter and I wouldn't share them without his express permission and that has always been the case.
Its very helpful for the owner of the engine to know as much information about his motor as possible like part numbers, flow sheets, build tolerances for some of the following reasons:
A) You need to order replacement parts.
B) You want to make changes to your build and your wondering if the tolerances are there with a different cam.
C) Your rebuilding the top end of your engine years later, and the original assembler has retired (which is coming in my case).
D) God forbid, you have to reproduce it.
E) Even worse, you have to sell it if you become disabled for some reason. Some of us are not spring chickens.
My current engine builder measures everything and writes it down. He's more than happy to share that information with me. It protects him and the customer.
I put the information in my safe for good keeping.
I don't see how any reasonable person can argue that having more information about your engine is a disadvantage.
OK, rant off. Obviously I ruffled some feathers on my friend's thread.
Ray was my Muse for my own build and I really appreciate it Ray, I do.
Ray, I wouldn't have started it without you. You also are a competent mechanic, and I don't have your skills and have to pay others so my perspective will be different.
Hoping this makes a little sense here.
Ray, I'm very glad your back on the road again with yet another screaming "No Cents" build. Hope your feeling better now.
Regards,
-A-
The reason I asked about the difference between the heads was because it was the only change and I wanted to see how it showed on the dyno. I asked about more than flow tho..
I thought it was a good question for a technical forum myself. -Tutt
-A-...you are correct...I need a second bike.
So today I was off bright and early and I rode until noon. I got a farmers sunburn :hyst:
Anyway...I came home and decided to roll my 401k over to an IRA today...plus I might of had a little side check cut for me with the hopes of finding another bike. I might look into the salvaged titled bikes and see what I can find.
I ended up today putting just shy of 150 miles on it...and it ran like a champ all day long. :chop:
Any 124 that breaks the 150 mark is stout as Heck Ray! Hard to get that much HP and TQ to the pavement! And leave it to you to break past that now in pretty much everything you do!!! Your a piece of work my friend! Thanks for all your help for me, and many others on this forum!!!!! You help a great many people with your honesty and transparency. You really do.
-A-
Quote from: No Cents on June 06, 2016, 05:38:38 PM
-A-...you are correct...I need a second bike.
So today I was off bright and early and I rode until noon. I got a farmers sunburn :hyst:
Anyway...I came home and decided to roll my 401k over to an IRA today...plus I might of had a little side check cut for me with the hopes of finding another bike. I might look into the salvaged titled bikes and see what I can find.
I ended up today putting just shy of 150 miles on it...and it ran like a champ all day long. :chop:
I ended up going that route too Ray. Bought a very nice older road king from a member here so I could experiment with my fat boy at will and still have a 2 wheeler to fall back on. It's also much nicer on longer trips 2 up.
Ray, you need one of these! I picked this one up with a bad engine and have well under what it is worth into it. Plus it really hauls butt when it is close to red line!!
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/PoorUB/YamahaR1_zps0eff398d.jpg)
I would hurt myself on something like that. :hyst:
I did find this little fixer upper
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Ray, that does look very nice indeed!
We are all of us motorcycle enthusiasts. Some of us cross boundaries more than others. Always good to have multiple bikes in the fleet with different riding styles!!!
Regards,
-A-
That would make U & wifey-poo a real nice putter. :scoot:
Ray i got them uploaded
this is the the pretty one. looks like a roller coaster
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/ray%20loaner%20heads.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/ray%20loaner%20heads.png.html)
the first run with my starter map.and the pretty one.
when you said "I am Happy with that " on the first run ...you made my day. :smile:
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/8upDuracell/ray%20loaner%20heads-1.png) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/strokerjlk/media/8upDuracell/ray%20loaner%20heads-1.png.html)
You'll end up putting that 124" into that when you feel how great a Road Glide rides. LOL :pot stir:
Zach
Quote from: No Cents on June 06, 2016, 07:12:19 PM
I would hurt myself on something like that. :hyst:
I did find this little fixer upper
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Quote from: No Cents on June 06, 2016, 07:12:19 PM
I would hurt myself on something like that. :hyst:
I did find this little fixer upper
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
[attachimg=3]
Yep, good looking ride! :koolaid: SharkNose! Second bike is a must if your 1st is a hot rod!
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii140/C-Cat-61/11%20Road%20Glide%20107_zps7hgcwc4v.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/C-Cat-61/media/11%20Road%20Glide%20107_zps7hgcwc4v.jpg.html)
Ray now you're talking my language we're going to miss you on this forum,because after you buy a Roadglide which rides like a magic carpet you're not going to want to Park it , that is until you start customizing it and I've got some parts for you to start with like my CVO fender kit and R B Racing pipe :potstir:
Ray, that's a beauty. :agree: with groundhog and biggzed. After a few days on that shark you'll think your in heaven. You and the wife will be back in the wind "between adjustments" on the copper top. :up:
So Ray, are you buying the shark? :potstir:
I haven't bid on it yet. I just started looking last night. That one is located down in Tennessee.
By the end of the summer I will have me another bike in the barn. I won't go thru what I just did again and not be able to ride when the season is in. A second bike would probably be a smart move for me.
Ray
For the second bike I would look outside the box myself. Find something that is all about the fun factor.. Victory's are not badly prices offer some very impressive features , not to mention the import touring sport bikes. kawasaki concours, or the Yamaha FJ 1300 or the FJ-09 , but that would only be if you want 140+ hp and super smooth riding , and do not want to work in it . :hyst: I tune 40-50 imports a year 15-20 or so Victory's . so I get to ride the other bikes .. and really some are very nice.. Different from a HD yes but thats the point.. its about riding. Price wise much less invested,
They might not be the HD love but you cannot deny the facts on how they ride and what they offer..
Yeah, I rode a Victory Octane last week.
I gotta admit, that is one hell of a bike for the money.
~John
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 07, 2016, 06:08:34 AM
Ray
For the second bike I would look outside the box myself. Find something that is all about the fun factor..
That is why I picked up the Yamaha. I ride it almost as much as my Ultra, but I do miss the storage. On the other hand my Ultra won't pull 70 MPH wheelies on the interstate entrance ramp like an R1will! :bike:
Ray on anything but a Harley .. :turd:
Ray, buy two similar touring bikes, of similar age, spare parts! :teeth:
That's why I did it.
:hyst: I am going to catch :turd: for this, but check out the BMW K1600.... has storage, I call it the seniors hayabusa. it is faster than your exiting bike but with a comfy ride and the wife will love you for it. as Tweekmytwin says. you might end up holding your pinkie finger out when drinking your afternoon tea,but it hasn't happen yet, but I do spend a lot of time at the coffee place waiting for my Harley buddies to catch up.
Main reason I chose this bike, I knew if I bought another Harley, I would never stop modifying or redoing this and that, I have had the BMW for quite some time now and the only mods are seat and windshield, and don't see a need for anything else, it has everything already.
2016 Dyna low S is my vote I just bought one as my third bike and I love it. I am 6'5" tall and weigh 300lbs I am to big for it but I don't care I love it I just am learning to do wheelies and I am leaving for Memphis on the dyna low not my roadglide. Ray get you a Dyna S
I'll be riding a BMW R1200RT for ten days later this summer. I hope I like riding it, but not so much that I'll need to get one......
Quote from: JohnCA58 on June 07, 2016, 09:33:45 AM
:hyst: I am going to catch :turd: for this, but check out the BMW K1600.... has storage, I call it the seniors hayabusa. it is faster than your exiting bike but with a comfy ride and the wife will love you for it. as Tweekmytwin says. you might end up holding your pinkie finger out when drinking your afternoon tea,but it hasn't happen yet, but I do spend a lot of time at the coffee place waiting for my Harley buddies to catch up.
Main reason I chose this bike, I knew if I bought another Harley, I would never stop modifying or redoing this and that, I have had the BMW for quite some time now and the only mods are seat and windshield, and don't see a need for anything else, it has everything already.
Not saying you have to buy one. But if you cannot see the tech that is out there well thats just dumb.. But hey look at a CTSV wagon. 0-60 in 3.2 0-100 in 3.9 200 top speed and its still a wagon.. Times change , but I cannot wait to hear the whinning about the 2017 engine :hyst: :hyst: Going to be a LOOOOOOONG winter :baby:
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
I'll be riding a BMW R1200RT for ten days later this summer. I hope I like riding it, but not so much that I'll need to get one......
Beware. I sold my softail after test riding a couple of v rods. It left an impression I couldn't shake off. I've glanced over the BMW and must admit, one hell of a machine. Plenty of great bikes out there now.
Ron
I was looking at the BMW K1600 instead of an Ultra for my next ride. Great bike but I understand tire milage sucks and the missus would not like the passenger seat compared to the Ultra. I might give in yet.
Quote from: PoorUB on June 07, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
I was looking at the BMW K1600 instead of an Ultra for my next ride. Great bike but I understand tire milage sucks and the missus would not like the passenger seat compared to the Ultra. I might give in yet.
How do you know she won't like it? Time for a demo ride!
One issue, or not, is the availability of service when out touring. Harley dealerships and independent shops are located everywhere. Not sure on the BMW service shops.
Quote from: PoorUB on June 07, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
I was looking at the BMW K1600 instead of an Ultra for my next ride. Great bike but I understand tire milage sucks and the missus would not like the passenger seat compared to the Ultra. I might give in yet.
Yes on tires, reason is you pretty much ride the touring bike like a sport bike, my first set I only got 6K miles on the OEM tires, went to the Road Smart II and got 9K on them with half mileage two-up. If you show your wife the Exclusive seating, she would be hooked, my GF rides on both bikes and both have Corbin seats, If I let her chose the ride for the day, it is always the BMW. here is a friend in the K1600 following a Duc Monster. the K is a 800 lbs bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33VFi92JwI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33VFi92JwI)
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:35:42 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 07, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
I was looking at the BMW K1600 instead of an Ultra for my next ride. Great bike but I understand tire milage sucks and the missus would not like the passenger seat compared to the Ultra. I might give in yet.
How do you know she won't like it? Time for a demo ride!
One issue, or not, is the availability of service when out touring. Harley dealerships and independent shops are located everywhere. Not sure on the BMW service shops.
True that but another way to look at it is you don't need a dealer every 10 miles to keep it going. :hyst:
Ron
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:35:42 AM
How do you know she won't like it? Time for a demo ride!
One issue, or not, is the availability of service when out touring. Harley dealerships and independent shops are located everywhere. Not sure on the BMW service shops.
I thought of going for a demo ride, she might like it. One other dig is the closest dealer is 200 miles away. Kind of a pain if need service. We also use the CB a lot on the Ultra. Pretty sure we would miss it.
Ray, I do not recommend an FXR very often, but your a special case. I think you would fit in real well with the FXR underground. The joy you would have re-engineering just about every aspect of an FXR (Except the frame). That 124 you built would be more than twice the fun in a lightweight platform like an FXR and it will handle much better than any equally prepared bagger chassis. They are certainly not for everyone, heck most people don't understand them, but I think you and an FXR frame would be a good fit for each other.
Quote from: Just Nick on June 07, 2016, 10:03:17 AM
2016 Dyna low S is my vote I just bought one as my third bike and I love it. I am 6'5" tall and weigh 300lbs I am to big for it but I don't care I love it I just am learning to do wheelies and I am leaving for Memphis on the dyna low not my roadglide. Ray get you a Dyna S
Ray already had a dyna low rider and sold it.
Quote from: HighLiner on June 07, 2016, 04:23:39 PM
Quote from: Just Nick on June 07, 2016, 10:03:17 AM
2016 Dyna low S is my vote I just bought one as my third bike and I love it. I am 6'5" tall and weigh 300lbs I am to big for it but I don't care I love it I just am learning to do wheelies and I am leaving for Memphis on the dyna low not my roadglide. Ray get you a Dyna S
Ray already had a dyna low rider and sold it.
Yeah but not the dyna s with the 110" in it
Ray's a little "long in the tooth" :wink: and somehow I don't see him hunched over a sport bike with his knees up and feet high. LOL
But a sport touring bike or any of the adventure touring bikes with their upright seating positions? Maybe. I think if he test road some of those bikes, he might be surprised how much fun they are and comfortable too. You might even find a used BMW 1600 for the cost of a shark nose. Those bikes I would agree are awesome. If BMW had built something more like the "Concept 6" they previewed, I probably would have done anything to get one. But I'm a happy 09 Dyna guy myself and it meets all my needs after a lot of mods.
Regards,
-Tutt
Yikes, this thread has over 442,000 views.
I disagree Max for placing this thread on Earl's. It has a ton of tech content and is in a lull until Ray gets back into the meat of his bike. He is riding again and that is what is most important. The modifications and how they work and perform will resume in time. Give this thread a break and keep it in it's proper place.
I agree, it got a little off track with talk of a second bike, but it is a tech rich thread, full of info and theory proven and disproven. It would be great to see it back where it started.
Good grief. Does it really matter where this thread is?
Think about it guys. Do you think Ray will ride anything that doesn't growl when he turns the wick. :dgust: Maybe to see what it's like, but not to own one. Now I could be wrong but I doubt it. :wink: Ray's challenge will be to NOT buy another lift table and have 2 projects on the go. :teeth:
Quote from: turboprop on June 07, 2016, 07:47:14 PM
Good grief. Does it really matter where this thread is?
Only in that non members can't see it now.
Max
I would like to withdraw my non tech comments and ask that they be sent to the shed. If the rest of us that lost control in the last day or so would do the same maybe Max would put the thread back in the twin cam section where it really belongs. It really is an epic in depth series of modifications that all of us have learned so much from at Ray's expense and sweat. The majority of the posts are on point and it is only lately that is was derailed (and not any fault of Ray). It will be a shame to see this die in Earls place before the copper top gets finished and makes it (hopefully) to the track. How about that? Is it doable?
This is not meant as a challenge to your authority Max. It's almost 1/2 million views and 5000 posts. That must carry some weight for consideration.
Totally agree with Dat.
-Tutt
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 08:17:21 PM
Quote from: turboprop on June 07, 2016, 07:47:14 PM
Good grief. Does it really matter where this thread is?
Only in that non members can't see it now.
And why do you or anyone else care about what non members can see or not see?
Let's ban max :wink:
well men...I fully expected this thread to get moved one day...and I guess that day has arrived. I knew Max was chomping at the bit to move it...and I honestly seen it coming.
The thread has lost it's technical postings offered up by me with the heart break of the heads I was having worked on not showing up. That took the wind right out of my sail...and my goals to make some bigger hp have been crushed. I've always posted in the past the things I've tried to do to this bike wether the results were good or bad in the hopes that members could learn right along with me.
I am always humbled by how many people read the 124 build thread. It does seem to have a small following and I thank you all for all your replies and input everyone has offered up along the way. :up:
Ray
added later:
at least we can safely talk about what flavor of oil I use in this section. :hyst:
Quote from: turboprop on June 07, 2016, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 08:17:21 PM
Quote from: turboprop on June 07, 2016, 07:47:14 PM
Good grief. Does it really matter where this thread is?
Only in that non members can't see it now.
And why do you or anyone else care about what non members can see or not see?
That's what brings in new members. They don't need to see what Preach posts in Earl's, that would not necessarily help the cause. But the technical info is what draws people in.
I too think this thread needs to be moved back where it belongs. Wipe out all comments that got off base if necessary. This thread has no less than inspired many who might not have attempted to go where Ray has truly gone. For sure one of the best threads I have ever read on a forum with so many insights into the art of building an engine for pure performance with inputs from the most knowledgable wrenches in the business. For one, I thank you Ray for sharing all of this and can't wait for the saga to continue for the search for the perfect setup.
I think we should post everything in Earls!! :teeth:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think threads get moved just for the sake of moving them. If anything, this thread should of been left where it was and if it got to far off topic it could have been locked down and Ray could start a new one in Earl's. I'm looking for a "big head" smiley , but can't seam to find one.
IT IS/WAS members like ME that also got it off topic.... Very Sorry For That... :banghead:
Too easy to say Nice things to a Wonderful Builder like Ray that should have been: PM'ed or Posted IN ANOTHER THREAD started in Earls...
I bragged how many participants/members/post/ and Good Builder Ideas ARE here...
SO I DO Blame ME for this MOVE also...
Could have had TWO threads ONE in Twin Cam strictly for Posting Correct Responses/Questions/Answers into original thread then The other Titled same but stating: off topic COMMENTS not related to Building... ie for comments like THIS one I just made in Earls....
I DO Apologize to the Staff and the HTT Forum... WAS Not my Intent to Damage these Goods.
:kick:
signed....BUBBIE
4756 Post
442244 views
We blame you too, Bubbie. :wink:
I Say we get Max and teach him a lesson that he wont rightly forget. :pop: :hyst:
And Damn it Bubbie look what you went and did now. :smilep:
For the record, I still like you, Max. I know that was probably keeping you up at night, so now you can rest easy.....
Keep it going Ray, longest thread in HTT history. Doesn't matter where the thread is placed, people will still follow/participate.
Well, what moving this thread has done is make me go to Earl's place and I never used to do that. I would really not have to do it and just follow Ray's journey where it deserves to be. Great thread Ray. You know how to keep the suspense up and help us live our dream build thru you.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
I'll be riding a BMW R1200RT for ten days later this summer. I hope I like riding it, but not so much that I'll need to get one......
i jumped ship from harleys to a RT and love it - heading to alaska in a few weeks on it. last bike was 107 turbo '15 RG. prob pick up a 17rt this fall
Quote from: slothy on June 09, 2016, 11:08:48 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
I'll be riding a BMW R1200RT for ten days later this summer. I hope I like riding it, but not so much that I'll need to get one......
i jumped ship from harleys to a RT and love it - heading to alaska in a few weeks on it. last bike was 107 turbo '15 RG. prob pick up a 17rt this fall
You're not helping..... :bike:
Quote from: Hossamania on June 09, 2016, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: slothy on June 09, 2016, 11:08:48 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 07, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
I'll be riding a BMW R1200RT for ten days later this summer. I hope I like riding it, but not so much that I'll need to get one......
i jumped ship from harleys to a RT and love it - heading to alaska in a few weeks on it. last bike was 107 turbo '15 RG. prob pick up a 17rt this fall
You're not helping..... :bike:
[emoji12]
Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
I noticed quite some time ago that the number of replies on this thread had overtaken the 'Return of the Joke threads' although going less than half as long.
Certainly the most popular thread for the tech minded on this site.
It has been an interesting journey ( similar to the 117'er build )
and worthwhile seeing the improvements in performance with different modifications
the Burns pipe with the 'barn built' end cap and the 'barn built' intake are examples of thinking outside the box :up:
some of Ray's home made tools are also a revelation
it is disappointing to see the thread moved out of the tech domain
Was it triggered by the number of posts suggesting Ray look at a second bike of a foreign breed
Those members do not seem to understand Ray's commitment to the HD brand
and those posts should have been posted in the joke section.
It turned into a soap opera months ago, what did you expect? :idunno:
At least it's still here and not locked up.
Quote from: 98fxstc on June 09, 2016, 08:01:29 PM
It has been an interesting journey ( similar to the 117'er build )
and worthwhile seeing the improvements in performance with different modifications
the Burns pipe with the 'barn built' end cap and the 'barn built' intake are examples of thinking outside the box :up:
some of Ray's home made tools are also a revelation
Hey this is Earl's place, let's leave the technical comments out of here. :hyst:
yesterday I finally fixed my gas tank leak I've had going on now for a year or so.
I tried the Seal All product last season and it slowed the leak down...but it didn't entirely stop it. It had a pin hole right in the weld seam on the very front of the tank and when I would fill it up with gas I would get a thin stream of gas roll back on to the top of my tank when I was going down the road. I couldn't have that...so it was time for a permanent fix.
I took the tank off and emptied all the guts out of it and clean the inside out with some Dawn dish soap and water. I blew most of the water out with the air compressor and then I propped the tank up and aimed a fan into it for an hour or so. I got it bone dry inside. I took the tank over to my friends indy shop that is now just called "Don's"...(he was the owner and founder of Sucker Punch Sally motorcycles) and he has been in a few of those biker build off shows on TV. Donny is an amazingly talented bike builder. Donny welded the tank back up for me. I put a little touch up paint on the tank and put it all back together and went to the gas station and filled it to the very brim. I went out this morning and checked it again. No leak...I'm happy now. :teeth:
The bike has been running great and I have been putting some fun seat time on it. :bike:
It's nice to be in the wind.
I did pull the plugs out last night and give them a little look...they were both burning perfect. :up:
added later:
I would be in the wind right now instead of typing on the forum...but it's raining outside right now. :emsad:
It matters nothing to me to follow No Cents from Earls Place. I have enjoyed the journey from the start. If No Cents wants to continue posting about "Duracell", I'll be more than interested to see whats next. Buffalo
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2016, 06:13:21 AM
added later:
I would be in the wind right now instead of typing on the forum...but it's raining outside right now. :emsad:
It's supposed to stop around 12:00. :chop:
It's good that you are up and running. :up:
Well, me too on the moving to Earl's place. Now I have a reason to look at post over here. For some reason, I never go here and read.
Darn, sure wish I had the ability (and the space) to do this cuz I sure have the TIME! 103" was one heck of an improvement over my old 80 "ers. I can only dream what 124" will be like. How much further can air cooled engines go in the V-twin configuration until they start running into a heat dissipation problem? I realize cams, compression, and timing make a tremendous difference, but does there seem to be an upper cube limit?
PC
Quote from: Phu Cat on June 10, 2016, 01:58:44 PM
Darn, sure wish I had the ability (and the space) to do this cuz I sure have the TIME! 103" was one heck of an improvement over my old 80 "ers. I can only dream what 124" will be like. How much further can air cooled engines go in the V-twin configuration until they start running into a heat dissipation problem? I realize cams, compression, and timing make a tremendous difference, but does there seem to be an upper cube limit?
PC
S&S has a 143 incher, I thought I remember some 145 or 150 tribute motors that came out a few years ago. Quite a few 131's running around out there too.
Quote from: Smarty on June 10, 2016, 01:36:44 PM
Well, me too on the moving to Earl's place. Now I have a reason to look at post over here. For some reason, I never go here and read.
You been missing out on all the hot topics by not visiting Earl's. Welcome.
Quote from: Phu Cat on June 10, 2016, 01:58:44 PM
Darn, sure wish I had the ability (and the space) to do this cuz I sure have the TIME! 103" was one heck of an improvement over my old 80 "ers. I can only dream what 124" will be like. How much further can air cooled engines go in the V-twin configuration until they start running into a heat dissipation problem? I realize cams, compression, and timing make a tremendous difference, but does there seem to be an upper cube limit?
PC
The real limitations the V=twin is the intake manifold. The amount of space between the cylinders severely restricts the manifold.
I think for the most part, Ed is correct and where I spent the most money on my 131 build with S&S B2 heads was not so much in improving the heads, but in improving the intake manifold. HDSP seemed to spend the most time in improving the intake manifold just as Ed states! There are some heat issues but those can often be resolved with largar fan cooled oil coolers and fans on the heads. The larger heads built for this application have more cooling area on the heads/fins which helps a lot. I was told by Russel who owns Finish Line Coatings that a painted head releases heat better than a powder coated one. And a naked head even better. He knows what he is talking about. Great guy to do business with!!!! Hoping Ray gets his heads back soon still.
Regards,
-Tutt
Let's try to keep future posts tech. Thanks.
Welcome Back and technically it looks like Coyote is cleaning up some messes.
Yes manifold is the trick :wink:
Here's an example of how an extremely poor intake manifold to head port fitment can destroy a motor in a worst case scenario. The engine builder used the wrong flange for the particular application in a 120R. This combination created an extreme heat build up that toasted my friend's R&R heads and build. Yeah, he's pissed.
(http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205282&d=1466109062)
Regards, -Tutt
Ok Ray, what's been changing on the Duracel? I know you been putting the miles on but you have to be thinking already, "What do I do next"? I know your numbers looked very good with these heads. Any seat of the pants tell, tell signs of not producing like you want it to?
Quote from: No Cents on June 10, 2016, 06:13:21 AM
yesterday I finally fixed my gas tank leak I've had going on now for a year or so.
I tried the Seal All product last season and it slowed the leak down...but it didn't entirely stop it. It had a pin hole right in the weld seam on the very front of the tank and when I would fill it up with gas I would get a thin stream of gas roll back on to the top of my tank when I was going down the road. I couldn't have that...so it was time for a permanent fix.
I took the tank off and emptied all the guts out of it and clean the inside out with some Dawn dish soap and water. I blew most of the water out with the air compressor and then I propped the tank up and aimed a fan into it for an hour or so. I got it bone dry inside. I took the tank over to my friends indy shop that is now just called "Don's"...(he was the owner and founder of Sucker Punch Sally motorcycles) and he has been in a few of those biker build off shows on TV. Donny is an amazingly talented bike builder. Donny welded the tank back up for me. I put a little touch up paint on the tank and put it all back together and went to the gas station and filled it to the very brim. I went out this morning and checked it again. No leak...I'm happy now. :teeth:
The bike has been running great and I have been putting some fun seat time on it. :bike:
It's nice to be in the wind.
I did pull the plugs out last night and give them a little look...they were both burning perfect. :up:
added later:
I would be in the wind right now instead of typing on the forum...but it's raining outside right now. :emsad:
Ray it has been at least a week since the 124 incher has been on the table,what is going on in your mind next,i know your going threw withdraw..
Ray, I say this Friday let's go down to Edgewater raceway park little test and tune session :potstir:
Ray, any thoughts on how those special locks worked on the rear axle.
John...the Nord Locks have seemed to help some...but it didn't totally cure it.
I guess I'm going to have to try that Zipper's axle and adjusters, or spend the big bucks on a Trax swing arm to cure it.
Rockin' Randall...I'm in for Friday night test and tune if the gangs all going. :potstir:
Ray
Woo hoo hope you get to the track on friday Ray ! Cant wait to see how everything works out for you .
Quote from: Smarty on June 16, 2016, 06:45:28 PM
Ok Ray, what's been changing on the Duracel? I know you been putting the miles on but you have to be thinking already, "What do I do next"? I know your numbers looked very good with these heads. Any seat of the pants tell, tell signs of not producing like you want it to?
Smarty...the heads Steve sent me got me back up and running :up: ...and I've been doing a lot of riding since it went back together.
But you know me...I've already been looking to see what else I can come up with for another set of heads more tailored to what I'm looking for. So far the added compression doesn't seem to have caused me any issues since I asked Jim to adjust the hot start up map for me. It starts like a stocker...even with it being totally heat soaked. Hit the button and it fires right up. I thought the 12.20:1 compression would give me some issues...but so far I haven't had any. I would still like to drop the compression some with the next set of heads I get done.
Thanks Josh! :up: I hope the guys are all going. If so...I will have to tag along and play a little bit too. :smiled:
Ray
That's real good to hear Ray. Is Randy (Groundhog) going too? I ask because of the adjuster problem. What is he using for a swing arm and mods? You and him are in similar power ranges of sorts and it'll be interesting to see if he has adjustment slippage too. It may be in the hard hit of the shifting. Good luck and cut a video for the boys if you can. It doesn't have to be a winner pass either. I personally would like to turn up the sound and hear that pipe wail. 👍🏻 😜
Ray, one other thing I have seen guy's do with the same problem is drill the swing arm at where the center of the cam makes contact with the stop to fit a roll pin into the swing arm and then take the axle and grinds round notches to fit the roll pin used around the cam portion of the axle. its an old MX trick. forgot all about it and might be worth doing.
kd...Randy isn't going to put that T143 on the strip. It is his grocery getter. :hyst:
John...for the world of me...I can't picture what your saying.
All I know is the stock cam axle isn't up to the task of keeping the chain tight when you start hammering hard on the bike. Randy's bike does the same thing.
Well you answered the question about adjustment slip any way. I can see what John is describing and if there is enough cam support surface material left in between the notches in the rim of the cam (and the pin hole matches the cam notch when adjusted) it may work. You'd be wise to mark or center punch an indicator where the proper adjustment is when the cam rim touches the new adjuster bar stop you put on there. If it is still pinned on and not welded you may have to weld it.
can who ever it was from Ohio that pm'd me about Fred...send me another pm please. I forgot who it was. :doh:
I have some info to share with you.
Ray
I spent some money today.
I went over to Don's Cycle and had him order me the Zipper's axle and adjusters to hopefully fix my loosening chain problem.
I also bought a set of 110 heads NIB today from a forum member. Thanks Joe! :up:
I went out and bought another can of Aviation paint remover to strip the powder coating off the heads and put them back in their natural silver state before sending them out to be loved on.
Only other thing I can say about the bike is it runs great...and I'm having a blast riding it.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on June 29, 2016, 12:34:05 PM
I spent some money today.
I went over to Don's Cycle and had him order me the Zipper's axle and adjusters to hopefully fix my loosening chain problem.
I also bought a set of 110 heads NIB today from a forum member. Thanks Joe! :up:
I went out and bought another can of Aviation paint remover to strip the powder coating off the heads and put them back in their natural silver state before sending them out to be loved on.
Only other thing I can say about the bike is it runs great...and I'm having a blast riding it.
Ray
Great news Ray. :up:
Who's going to be souping up the heads this time :fish:
I have a suggestion it begins with an "M" and ends with "O"
Quote from: groundhog143 on June 30, 2016, 06:01:30 AM
Who's going to be souping up the heads this time :fish:
well...it won't be Fred :banghead:
No :turd:
Quote from: Tireman on June 30, 2016, 06:09:23 AM
I have a suggestion it begins with an "M" and ends with "O"
egafl
No Cents you said stroker adjusted your start up map for hot starts. Any chance you or stroker would share what was done to your map?
Quote from: C-Cat on June 30, 2016, 07:13:10 AM
Quote from: Tireman on June 30, 2016, 06:09:23 AM
I have a suggestion it begins with an "M" and ends with "O"
egafl
:up: :up:, Libo doesn't disappoint
Quote from: boatdoc on June 30, 2016, 07:35:31 AM
No Cents you said stroker adjusted your start up map for hot starts. Any chance you or stroker would share what was done to your map?
I'm not sure what all Jim adjusts in the map. He just sends me a new map with his changes...and I load it in. I will say this...even with my engine having 12.2 compression and it being heat soaked...it re-fires instantly with the touch of the starter button.
Maybe pm Jim and see if he can help. :nix:
Ray
added later:
I have spoke with people like John Sachs, wfolarry, and Jim @ Mega- Flo about possibly doing the 110 head castings I will have. I had a friend that give me a phone number the other day to a guy named Greg Cope. Greg does all of Vance & Hines drag bike heads. He insisted for me to call him...but it just goes to his voice mail. I had even thought about contacting Gregg Dahl at GMS...but haven't. Both John Sachs and Jim at Mega- Flo are going to be down for awhile with John moving into his new house and shop, and Jim (Mega- Flo) says he is moving machinery around in his shop for the addition of a new machine and he wouldn't be ready to take on any new jobs until September.
I will be sending them to Larry...he has done great work for me in the past. Maybe he has something new up his sleeve for these 110 castings.
Looking forward to the results.
Larry is Badass! best of luck and look forward to the updates :beer: :beer: :beer:
No horse in the race but would suggest having a look at ultimas. It takes quite a bit of welding to get the 110 head squared away if some serious power is the goal. Jim from mega flow has experience with both and could offer additional comments. Jason from C&S is another source being an actual user and tuner.
Quote from: No Cents on June 30, 2016, 06:15:08 AM
Quote from: groundhog143 on June 30, 2016, 06:01:30 AM
Who's going to be souping up the heads this time :fish:
well...it won't be Fred :banghead:
It
really sucks you had to find that out the hard way.
I had a set of heads all boxed up, sealed & addressed -ready to send them off to Freddy. At that point, a few people I trust warned me that sending the heads to Freddy was really a risky proposition & I decided to hold off a bit at that point.........
~John
Greg Cope used to be partners with George Bryce at Star Racing. Dave Schultz eventually hired Greg to work with his Pro-Stock bike. After that it was my understanding Greg wound up at V&H.
Greg knows his way around heads.
John
Quote from: Jonny Cash on June 30, 2016, 09:57:17 AM
:up: :up:, Libo doesn't disappoint
I have to agree. Jim is a great guy too.
I think the last head change, albeit temporary, has provided some lessons to be learned. Head flow potential is one thing we measure on the flow bench, VE is another. Raising VEs is what is required to raise horsepower. Doing so may require equipment changes and will likely raise the peak torque point plus raise the peak power rpm. You are at roughly 1.25 hp / cu in now.
yep Don...I went a little backwards. I was @ 1.32 hp / ci before...but at least I'm up and running and riding again...which is the most important thing to me right now.
I think the heads that Larry will be doing for me will get me back closer to where I was...and maybe even a little better.
~John :agree: ...I learned a hard lesson dealing with Fred...as many others apparently did too.
I will never again deal with a person that I can not "completely trust". It isn't worth it to me. I'm out just a set of heads and a lengthy down time...but my lose doesn't compare to the nine guys that had their bikes recovered...with missing engines.
The detective in charge called me this past Tuesday and he told me that my heads were not in the parts he recovered. He said that Fred either has another place that he stashed more parts to hide them...or he sold them. Either way I don't think I will ever see those heads back.
Ray
Ray, for your bagger, is peak HP at 6k+ RPMs really the end all be all? I get what you are doing, but wouldn't a different vehicle be more accepting of a high compression, late intake closing engine? Seriously, instead of 170 horse at 6,500 RPM, an engine that made 160 Ft. LBs of torque before 2,800 RPM would IMO be a lot more fun (and usable) in a heavy bagger.
Ed...you are spot on.
I do plan on getting the compression down lower and using an earlier closing cam than the 640's. To tell you the truth I really haven't had any issues with it at 12.2 compression and I have noticed the 640's are liking the extra compression shot to them. But I would rather it be in the 11.0- 11.5 range.
No offense man but you are sending the motor mixed signals. Go faster more power (more airflow potential), and make less power (less duration and compression)
I suggest you take advise from Larry exclusively.
I will take Larry's advice. Hell...I will even let Larry tell me what cams to run that best match the heads he will be doing for me. He might tell me to get a 594 cam again...or maybe a 9B. :nix: What ever he suggests for me to get...I will.
To tell you the honest truth...I'm just burnt out on what happened with the Fred ordeal with him promising me that my engine was going to make the power #'s he was telling me.
Right now I just happy to be riding. Don...I personally want to drop the compression back some myself. I have never ran an engine with this much compression in a Harley before. It does make the bike sound angry and it does run good. And I'm not trying to send my engine any mixed signals...it's got what it's got...and it's not a bad thing the way it sits. But I do know with some better flowing heads set at a lower compression the engine should be happier. I'm still a firm believer that some serious power can be made in a 11.0- 11.5 compression engine and it will still have that fun to ride factor in it. I'm still even debating about putting my pipe up on the shelf when I do pull the heads and just put a Rush Wrath on it and call it good after it's tuned.
Ray
I knew about Fred, with all the frenzy on here just hoped others would not get burned. I port heads for many in his market. Its a close knit community and that guy better not show his face in a few shops I am aware of.
My hottest larger motor thus far is a 4.25 bore 131 that makes 165. A softail with balancers removed, 12.0:1 and S&S 675 cams. reworked TH 66mm I believe. Guy is a street racer and has had no issues with it. Done 3 years ago and has not been apart since from what I am told.
This is so funny, and yet so sad.
Ray, that is not directed at you or Fred.
I hope that this part of Ray's thread is on the internet and will keep anyone from doing business with Fred Hether in the future. Larry will get you where you want to be Ray. No smoke and mirrors, just a class act that values a reputation and provides a great service.
Ray just put a T143 in your bike and call it good...
Ray I like how you always got a glass half full attitude its a credit to you and the fact that you share your not so good learning so Peeps don't get caught out is wicked
Larry a stand up dude will sort you out that's a fact
Double thumbs up
Quote from: No Cents on July 03, 2016, 12:36:34 PM
yep Don...I went a little backwards. I was @ 1.32 hp / ci before...but at least I'm up and running and riding again...which is the most important thing to me right now.
I think the heads that Larry will be doing for me will get me back closer to where I was...and maybe even a little better.
~John :agree: ...I learned a hard lesson dealing with Fred...as many others apparently did too.
I will never again deal with a person that I can not "completely trust". It isn't worth it to me. I'm out just a set of heads and a lengthy down time...but my lose doesn't compare to the nine guys that had their bikes recovered...with missing engines.
The detective in charge called me this past Tuesday and he told me that my heads were not in the parts he recovered. He said that Fred either has another place that he stashed more parts to hide them...or he sold them. Either way I don't think I will ever see those heads back.
Ray
OK 1.32 hp more to my point.
A stout motor.
Raising VEs, lowering BSFC will result in making more power and torque.
This could open the door to innovation.
Lately all I have seen is the same stuff same mentality, like ordering from Jegs, Good cam good pipe good heads etc will make it happen.
Not exactly or it will take years of testing to get there and huge $
Great combinations of parts that improve the motors efficiency opens new doors.
We have made progress over the years and EFI has been a game changer.
One case and point is Zippers 110" kit, 150hp, that was done with heads that flow 280cfm. How? Great combination and actually one you could drag race with quite well also.
I may have said it many posts ago and will say it again, not meant as a buzz kill or put down, but reading this thread it is very hard to discern what are your true goals and requirements. Without that you have no plan and the venture becomes a random exercise in changing parts.
I truly hope you have a defined goal and you reach that.
Don...at one point the goal was to make 1.4 hp / ci with this thing...but things went south as you well know.
My plan now is I'm going to back down the compression, run an earlier intake closing cam, and probably put a Rush Wrath pipe on the bike, and then I'll have it tuned...and call it good. Call it a mild street build if you will.
Where ever it lands on the dyno with the numbers is what it will be. I'm not chasing any dyno #'s or for that matter I don't have any certain expectations in mind.
My engine has some very good parts in it so I'm hoping they all work together very well in the end.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 04, 2016, 01:56:51 PM
Don...at one point the goal was to make 1.4 hp / ci with this thing...but things went south as you well know.
My plan now is I'm going to back down the compression, run an earlier intake closing cam, and probably put a Rush Wrath pipe on the bike, and then I'll have it tuned...and call it good. Call it a mild street build if you will.
Where ever it lands on the dyno with the numbers is what it will be. I'm not chasing any dyno #'s or for that matter I don't have any certain expectations in mind.
My engine has some very good parts in it so I'm hoping they all work together very well in the end.
Ray
Sounds reasonable good luck with it
I think what Ray is getting at is a street/strip build. Something that won't have a super late intake closing, big duration numbers, lessening some of the bad habits that come from an all effort build. Pushing the TQ curve back to the left enough to make a funner ride without killing the topend, just giving up a few peak RPM's/ HP, and gaining a more enjoyable ride..
Quote from: No Cents on July 04, 2016, 01:56:51 PM
Where ever it lands on the dyno with the numbers is what it will be. I'm not chasing any dyno #'s or for that matter I don't have any certain expectations in mind.
Ray
Maybe you should tell your tuner you don't want to know the numbers and you don't want a sheet. Just enjoy the ride. If you ever do more upgrades you can get your numbers at that point.
Quote from: C-Cat on July 04, 2016, 02:50:51 PM
I think what Ray is getting at is a street/strip build. Something that won't have a super late intake closing, big duration numbers, lessening some of the bad habits that come from an all effort build. Pushing the TQ curve back to the left enough to make a funner ride without killing the topend, just giving up a few peak RPM's/ HP, and gaining a more enjoyable ride..
:up:
Quote from: No Cents on July 27, 2014, 02:12:31 PM
this was the Duracell's best run...a 11.85.
This was against the guy that qualified #1 and set a new track record.
http://youtu.be/a_zokW6XUi0 (http://youtu.be/a_zokW6XUi0)
Bike needs seat time-a lot of it (one weekend with another pilot in three years)but I think Ray mentioned recently it's a hot street bike-not a street/strip bike, which is cool.
Big street power, but can go almost anywhere and make it back on pump.
Best thing about this thread is the honest testing, trying new stuff, and enjoying the journey-even if the track is never to be seen again by this bagger...
Ray- I'm glad to see it at the track. There is way more in it (as I am sure you know) My old 103 build knocked down a 12.04 in the Road King and it was no where near the animal yours is. Looking forward to your progress bud. :up:
Quote from: jam65 on July 03, 2016, 07:44:16 PM
I hope that this part of Ray's thread is on the internet and will keep anyone from doing business with Fred Hether in the future.
I agree, I lost a pristine set of Pan heads to a guy years ago who scammed a lot of people. Glad the POS Fred is out of business.
Best thing about this thread is the honest testing, trying new stuff, and enjoying the journey-even if the track is never to be seen again by this bagger...
[/quote]
Paul...very soon I will post you up some time slips with me in the seat...I promise. :wink:
We actually talked about going two weeks ago...but everybody's plans changed at the last moment.
This isn't the set up I had planned on having to do some passes with this year...but it will still get me some seat time so I can get comfortable with launching the bike off the line. Don't get me wrong about the set up...because the bike does run fairly good the way it sits right now. Would it be competitive in the bagger class..."no". Those guys are running down into the 9's now.
I might be getting a little too old for this kind of stuff...but I still want to have a little fun.
Ray
Quote from: No Cents on July 05, 2016, 04:05:09 AM
Best thing about this thread is the honest testing, trying new stuff, and enjoying the journey-even if the track is never to be seen again by this bagger...
Paul...very soon I will post you up some time slips with me in the seat...I promise. :wink:
QuoteWe actually talked about going two weeks ago...but everybody's plans changed at the last moment.
This isn't the set up I had planned on having to do some passes with this year...but it will still get me some seat time so I can get comfortable with launching the bike off the line. Don't get me wrong about the set up...because the bike does run fairly good the way it sits right now. Would it be competitive in the bagger class..."no". Those guys are running down into the 9's now.
I might be getting a little too old for this kind of stuff...but I still want to have a little fun.
go to edgewater on wend or thur. for the prepped T&T.
Paul is usually there on his bagger. he pits with all the metric bikes. they like picking on the harley guy. but there is a lot of knowledge in that pit area . guy can learn a lot just hanging out,and making passes.
Quote from: strokerjlk on July 05, 2016, 07:22:06 PM
Quote from: No Cents on July 05, 2016, 04:05:09 AM
Best thing about this thread is the honest testing, trying new stuff, and enjoying the journey-even if the track is never to be seen again by this bagger...
Paul...very soon I will post you up some time slips with me in the seat...I promise. :wink:
:up:
QuoteWe actually talked about going two weeks ago...but everybody's plans changed at the last moment.
This isn't the set up I had planned on having to do some passes with this year...but it will still get me some seat time so I can get comfortable with launching the bike off the line. Don't get me wrong about the set up...because the bike does run fairly good the way it sits right now. Would it be competitive in the bagger class..."no". Those guys are running down into the 9's now.
I might be getting a little too old for this kind of stuff...but I still want to have a little fun.
go to edgewater on wend or thur. for the prepped T&T.
Paul is usually there on his bagger. he pits with all the metric bikes. they like picking on the harley guy. but there is a lot of knowledge in that pit area . guy can learn a lot just hanging out,and making passes.
What a great opportunity for someone learning at the track to be around that much experience in the pits.
You can learn as much or more in the pits as making a pass down the track...
Learning on the bike, and learning bike set up as well.
very good advice Jim and PW!
I personally would love to see larrys heads and the 9b at 11.5. That ( i think) would defiantly seal the deal on the bottom and pull the top.
Ray i was very hesitant to use the 9b because of all the noise complaints i have heard about it but in my bike it is quieet and that is no bs! I do not have the rocker lockers or anything special done just the s&s prem lifters with axtel oil bypass. It was quiet before the axtel oil bypass also. Maybe Mr Woods changed something who knows? I just wanted to give you that info as you spoke of the 9b a few pages back.
Thanks Robert
I sent wfolarry a new set of 110 castings today. The only thing I asked of him was to get the cc's some where between 93- 94 cc's for me. The rest is up to Larry with what all he wants to do to them. I told him I was in no hurry for them...and for him to work on them in his spare time.
I also bought a set of TW-9Bg cams from Jamie @ Fuel Moto today too. I will be lowering my compression from my current 12.2 and I will be running the earlier intake closing of the 9Bg cams to see if I can shift the hp/tq curves to the left a few more 100 rpm's.
I ordered the Zipper's axle and adjuster kit last week for my final chain drive. I guess it's still on back order because Donny hasn't called me yet to tell me it's in. I can't wait to see if this kit will cure my loosening chain problem that has plagued me with the factory cammed axle.
Ray
Quote from: Raleigh111 on July 06, 2016, 11:13:25 AM
i was very hesitant to use the 9b because of all the noise complaints i have heard about it but in my bike it is quieet and that is no bs!
It's weird how those cams are noisy in some motors & quiet in others.
When I had a 117" motor with Hillside heads & those cams, it was the noisiest motor I have ever had (although my older 95" motor with Wood TW-6HG cams was almost as bad) & I tried
EVERYTHING to quiet it down.
Now, my 124"/640 motor is quieter than some stock motors.
~John
Quote from: jmorton10 on July 08, 2016, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: Raleigh111 on July 06, 2016, 11:13:25 AM
i was very hesitant to use the 9b because of all the noise complaints i have heard about it but in my bike it is quieet and that is no bs!
It's weird how those cams are noisy in some motors & quiet in others.
When I had a 117" motor with Hillside heads & those cams, it was the noisiest motor I have ever had (although my older 95" motor with Wood TW-6HG cams was almost as bad) & I tried EVERYTHING to quiet it down.
Now, my 124"/640 motor is quieter than some stock motors.
~John
I just fitted them to a new 107 build and they are as quiet as stock,,,,,,,,go figure,,,,,,,,,,,jezze they ripp :up:
My 9Bs were fairly quiet, but the 7H's I had in a 103 drove my nuts!
Quote from: jmorton10 on July 08, 2016, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: Raleigh111 on July 06, 2016, 11:13:25 AM
i was very hesitant to use the 9b because of all the noise complaints i have heard about it but in my bike it is quieet and that is no bs!
It's weird how those cams are noisy in some motors & quiet in others.
When I had a 117" motor with Hillside heads & those cams, it was the noisiest motor I have ever had (although my older 95" motor with Wood TW-6HG cams was almost as bad) & I tried EVERYTHING to quiet it down.
Now, my 124"/640 motor is quieter than some stock motors.
~John
My 6HGs were pretty damned quiet in my 95". My local guy likes the Woods 9's he hasn't found them to be that noisy. Every S&S cam I've used has always been quiet. I've been thinking about 9's as well as 640s for my 120". Currently the Tman 625 is as quiet as stock. I use S&S lifters... maybe that's the key?
Quote from: No Cents on July 08, 2016, 03:29:24 PM
I sent wfolarry a new set of 110 castings today. The only thing I asked of him was to get the cc's some where between 93- 94 cc's for me. The rest is up to Larry with what all he wants to do to them. I told him I was in no hurry for them...and for him to work on them in his spare time.
I also bought a set of TW-9Bg cams from Jamie @ Fuel Moto today too. I will be lowering my compression from my current 12.2 and I will be running the earlier intake closing of the 9Bg cams to see if I can shift the hp/tq curves to the left a few more 100 rpm's.
I ordered the Zipper's axle and adjuster kit last week for my final chain drive. I guess it's still on back order because Donny hasn't called me yet to tell me it's in. I can't wait to see if this kit will cure my loosening chain problem that has plagued me with the factory cammed axle.
Ray
Sorry if i missed it Ray but did larry suggest the 9b?
I think you will see at least your few 100 rpm difference as i am sure you will keep compression where that cam likes it to be. Glad to hear you are giving it a whirl...
If my little mousy 120 can put out 130tq at 2500 i am guessing you may need a seat belt with all the right parts you have..
nope...I asked him...but I couldn't get Larry to suggest a cam. He told me to run what ever cam I wanted. The 9B just seemed to fit with where I'm wanting to go with the compression.
I know I need to back the compression down if I plan on riding this thing on the street. At 12.2 this thing is pretty radical running around town.
Ray
Hello, I am getting 8up, no knew info in weeks, what's going on.
Quote (Hello, I am getting 8up, no knew info in weeks, what's going on.)
Lots of riding I would hope :chop: :up:
for about the past week it has rained around here...or should I say poured like a cow pissin on a flat rock...so not much riding going on lately. Today there is only a 50% chance of rain...so it will be in the wind today when the fog lifts.
With all the rain happening it did give me the chance to change the fluids in all three holes.
The bike runs strong and it doesn't have any issues with it. A few weeks ago the bike did develop an oil leak from the back on the rear cylinder. It ended up being the lower rocker box gasket. :banghead: Two hours wrenchin...and it was fixed and back on the road.
I'm still waiting on the Zipper's axle and adjusters. I don't know what is going on with Zipper's...they told Donny last week that they would be shipping it soon. :nix:
Ray
Must be all those big inch builds needing those chain conversions!
9B's at 11.5 ? are you guys really getting good results running such high comp.? whats the ignition timing look like?
Gabby , i run the wood 999-6 at 11.5 to 1 . No problems on pump 93 octane .
Quote from: gabbyduffy on August 18, 2016, 04:23:39 PM
9B's at 11.5 ? are you guys really getting good results running such high comp.? whats the ignition timing look like?
I'm hoping to be right at 11.35:1 with the 9B's.
I'm not having any issues right now running around with 12.20:1 compression with the 640's. I actually found out that the 640's really do like that extra compression shot to them. It went from a cam that kind of lulled me to sleep...to a hot rod cam.
Ray
chain conversion is my next step as well :up: I am having my S&S heads CNC cut as we speak . keeping the 640 and comp ratio will be 11.6
Quote from: gabbyduffy on August 18, 2016, 04:23:39 PM
9B's at 11.5 ? are you guys really getting good results running such high comp.? whats the ignition timing look like?
Im not up to 11.5 more like 11.2 but for some insight i will say bvbob took some timing away but it was not a lot. I can look at my timing tables if your really want to know where i am at? Just let me know. I have watched my oil temp and compared it to my buddys stock 88 tour bike. I run about 10-15 degrees more then he does on average. I am checking mine via dipstick in tank and his is a touring bike. I Have never been over 255 as of yet and we have done a few hard rides and some long ones. When i get to 255 he was at 240? Softail vs tour bike, different methods of testing so a lot of variables but its a number i guess.
Wow!! Been gone a while. Just read through 30 pages of this great thread - thanks Ray!!
Bummed to hear some of the problems, but great to see you keep going! Real interested to see how the 9bs work out if you go that direction. I think that's a cam that can perform beyond its size with heads and the rest of the build to complement and it sounds like that's your direction.
On another note - waaaay back when my FXD was down and money was tight to do what I wanted, I realized a 2nd bike was a good idea. Ended up buying a stock, very low-mile, 30+ year-old, standard Goldwing and can't tell you what a good move that was. Grocery-getter, trips, even a track day -- normal, easy maintenance and it just runs and runs. Get lots of compliments on it too. IMO a second bike is a "must have" especially if the main bike is a Harley.
Quote from: FXDRYDR on August 29, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
-- normal, easy maintenance and it just runs and runs.
wait until it needs a clutch LOL
~John
Done. $89.00 for a new one.
Quote from: FXDRYDR on August 29, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Just read through 30 pages of this great thread
On another note - waaaay back when my FXD was down and money was tight to do what I wanted, I realized a 2nd bike was a good idea. Ended up buying a stock, very low-mile, 30+ year-old, standard Goldwing and can't tell you what a good move that was. Grocery-getter, trips, even a track day -- normal, easy maintenance and it just runs and runs. Get lots of compliments on it too. IMO a second bike is a "must have" especially if the main bike is a Harley.
When you read through the 30 pages , did you realize the thread had been moved to Earl's Place for a while after the closet Goldwing and BMW fanbois came out to post ?
Caught some of the aftermath. Easy to skip what's of no interest.
Hey Ray, what is the length of your Burns muffler from the weld to the collector to the rear tip and the inside diameter of the baffle at the back end? I want to compare what I have pit together to what you have. My next question will be about your exhaust torque plate dimensions
And the OD of it where it bolts into the rear of the muffler. I'm considering a version of what you have proven to work well.
Quote from: kd on August 30, 2016, 06:46:30 AM
Hey Ray, what is the length of your Burns muffler from the weld to the collector to the rear tip and the inside diameter of the baffle at the back end? I want to compare what I have pit together to what you have. My next question will be about your exhaust torque plate dimensions
And the OD of it where it bolts into the rear of the muffler. I'm considering a version of what you have proven to work well.
kd...the best I can tell is it looks like the muffler is roughly 15 3/4" long from the weld at the collector to the end of the muffler...not to the end of the end cap. If you remember I welded a 1" wide stainless piece all the way around the pipe where the muffler joins the collector for added strength after that weld cracked twice...so give or take that 15 3/4" measurement by an 1/8".
On the end cap I ended up opening the center hole little by little until I got what I was wanting...it ended up being 2.740". The end cap is 4.245" across. In the drawing the only measurement that changed was the center hole opening. The end cap is held in place with three bolts.
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Ray
Thanks Ray, that'll help. Mine is 15 3/4 too. What size is the bore at the back endo of your baffle in the muffler. Mine exits at 3 inches ID. I just wanted to know if we have the same muffler because they have a couple of versions. My header pipes are 6 to 8 inches longer than yours and I asked for the longer megaphone to try and help keep the torque and tuning easier. I'll share my idea on a slightly different end cap design with you later and you can see what you think about it.
BTW do you member the numbers from the power / torque change with the retune after the end cap? It'll save me paging through the whole thread to find it. Thx
without removing the end cap and holding a tape measure up there it looks close to 3" too.
If I did it all over again I would make the steps longer on my pipe.
I was just talking to my son the other day and he has a welding job at a place that does a lot of aero space stuff. He wants me to get some more stainless to make another pipe because he can't stand the shitty looking job the local welder did on the 1" patch I had added. The welder that welded the pipe up for me originally was down in the Carolina's welding up Nascar Sprint Cup frames and he wasn't going to be back for a couple months when the weld cracked on me the second time. It isn't as purdy as it could of been...but it puts the exhaust out the end like it should...and it hasn't cracked again. I told my son I would have to think about it.
Ray
I only lengthened the last and largest step. I figure it will also make sure there isn't any cross talk at the O2 sensors. The muffler will be stuffed further under the bag and end near the axle or more. I'll need some support tied to the muffler but that should be possible off the lower trans area.
kd...here is with and without the end cap.
red line is with the end cap.
blue line is without.
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Ray
I am very tempted to fab up one of those end caps and see if I can get some of the dip out of my low end torque curve.
Thanks Ray. About 10 torque and 8 hp at 3200 rpm and no measurable downside anywhere. Well worth the time and effort. I'll have a chat with a machinist buddy and maybe PM you with my thoughts on a way to make it adjustable for tuning. Then, with your blessing I'll look into "revision 2" :teeth: easily adapted to yours. :wink:
Quote from: ThumperDeuce on August 30, 2016, 07:05:46 PM
I am very tempted to fab up one of those end caps and see if I can get some of the dip out of my low end torque curve.
BTW How are you makin out with that patent. :fish:
no patent here.
I'm just a gearhead junkie. :hyst:
Ray
I finally got my Zipper's axle and adjusters today. :baby:
The Nord Locks that I've been running one each side of my axle did hold the chain tightness better than just the factory stock cammed axle did...but it wasn't a permanent fix.
I will have to do a little mocking up now to see if I will have to have the Zipper's axle cut down on the length and maybe have some more threads added on to the end of it. This kit was designed for 09- up models with a wider swing arm and mine is the bastard year 08.
It looks like the adjusters have almost 1" of total adjustment. I measured and marked the adjusters and put adjustment marks on them with a dremel tool and I high lighted the marks with white paint. Now I can pull the axle straight with some marks that an old blind guy like me can see.
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Ray
:up: chain drive is my next step
Ray, just something to look out for, from my conversation with Zippers. They claim that the two bars on the swing arm that these adjusters rest against, are generally not equally away from the swing arm bolt. I don't know how true that is, but I do now know there are manufacturing tolerances. So this is why they wouldn't give me an answer as to how much travel the adjusters had, the claim one side may give much less than the other as far as keeping the axle square. Couldn't tell you if they are BSing me or just don't want to tell me the adjuster travel. But just watch and make sure before cutting the chain, if you have to cut it.
chain wise I run it as short as you can. they do stretch so its easier to have more room to adjust
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
chain wise I run it as short as you can. they do stretch so its easier to have more room to adjust
:up: :up:
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 12, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
chain wise I run it as short as you can. they do stretch so its easier to have more room to adjust
Don't count on that happening with the new chains such as the EK chains, they are going to stretch very little. :up:
A wider wheel base is a nice thing to have as well.
I knew going into this with the Zipper's axle and adjusters they were made for the wider 09- up swing arms and I would have to do something with the axle to make it shorter for my narrower 08 swing arm. I had planned on mocking it up and to see how much would have to be cut off and then have it re-threaded and a groove machined into it for the clip. That sure would be a lot of machine work and probably would cost a fair amount to have that done.
Today while I was looking at the axle I noticed it basically had a jamb nut tig welded to the end of it.
So you know me...what I did was I went to the local fastener store and bought a jamb nut that had a smaller ID than the OD of the axle. I opened the inside of the jamb nut up until I could get it to slide over the axle. Now when I go to mock it up with the new Zipper's axle I can slide the axle thru and mark it where it would need to cut off on the jamb nut side of the axle...and then have the new jamb nut tigged on.
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Ray
I started the mock up last night.
I got the axle cut off to the length I'll be needing. I'll have the new jamb nut tig welded on today.
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Ray
Quote from: No Cents on September 13, 2016, 12:30:58 PM
I knew going into this with the Zipper's axle and adjusters they were made for the wider 09- up swing arms and I would have to do something with the axle to make it shorter for my narrower 08 swing arm. I had planned on mocking it up and to see how much would have to be cut off and then have it re-threaded and a groove machined into it for the clip. That sure would be a lot of machine work and probably would cost a fair amount to have that done.
Today while I was looking at the axle I noticed it basically had a jamb nut tig welded to the end of it.
So you know me...what I did was I went to the local fastener store and bought a jamb nut that had a smaller ID than the OD of the axle. I opened the inside of the jamb nut up until I could get it to slide over the axle. Now when I go to mock it up with the new Zipper's axle I can slide the axle thru and mark it where it would need to cut off on the jamb nut side of the axle...and then have the new jamb nut tigged on.
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Ray
:up: :up:
Ray , how much clearance is between the axle and jam nut ? If its allot you will need to check the runout on the axle after its welded .
the Zipper's axle and adjusters is a done deal. I didn't have to cut the chain and I still have some adjustment left.
I took the axle over to Donny's this morning and he chucked it up in his lathe and made the cut off end flat and he beveled the outer edge of it for weld penetration and he also went as far as to chucked up the new jamb nut and he flattened the outside edge and bevel the inside for weld penetration. Once it was welded he chucked the axle up again in the lathe and made sure the outside was flat and then he made some passes on inside edge of the jamb nut so it was flat too. He did one hell of a job and only charged me the friend rate of $20.00 to do all the lathe work and welding. I came home and bolted everything together and took it out for a ride. I hammered on it a few times pretty hard that in the past would have loosen my chain some...but not this time. The chained stayed where I had it adjusted to. I couldn't be happier with the results.
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Ray
Looks good Ray !
thanks Josh! :up:
That's the right way to do it. :up:
Nice. I'll take that any day over those dumb cams.
Ron
How much adjustment will those give you?
thank you Larry & Ron! :up:
The adjusters have the same travel distance as the axle slot in the factory swing arm.
Ray
Looks Great Ray glad you finally got those adjusters in and were able so machine the so quick to work for your bike. :up:
That looks awesome Ray :up: :up:
~John
You could of just pulled one plug wire off and that axle would have most likely stayed put.
Glad to see this worked well for you Ray. I have a 99 RK with a later model swing arm and a 180 tire. I can't keep the chain tight and will explore this option over the winter.
Lot's of cool stuff and great info from what I've seen on here. It's definitely a candidate for "marathon thread".
Should have broken it up a bit to keep the interest up... 2cents :SM:
Quote from: MCE on September 15, 2016, 08:32:40 PM
Lot's of cool stuff and great info from what I've seen on here. It's definitely a candidate for "marathon thread".
Should have broken it up a bit to keep the interest up... 2cents :SM:
:up: :up: :up: :hyst:
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on September 15, 2016, 08:38:49 PM
Quote from: MCE on September 15, 2016, 08:32:40 PM
Lot's of cool stuff and great info from what I've seen on here. It's definitely a candidate for "marathon thread".
Should have broken it up a bit to keep the interest up... 2cents :SM:
:up: :up: :up: :hyst:
:agree:
Personally, I like it the way it is. Following one individual thru his dream and goal on the journey of making his bike and engine just like he wants it. Learning and changing along the way perfecting the end product. It show soundly how changing one part can change others to accommodate that change, then having to backtrack and do something else because those changes didn't arrive at the desired effect. I love it Ray, keep it up. Can't wait for the next turn.
Lots of really good info
Some really good home grown R&D
Only problem I have with this thread is trying to find something I remember reading about when it becomes relevant to something I am doing.
Yeah, this thread needs a "Table of Contents" or index or something......the time it spent in Earls can be the Apocrypha where it lost its way for a bit. :bike: LOL
-Tutt
The Admiral was doing what he thought best.
another year goes by and the old Duracell is still running as strong as it ever has.
Here is my most common problem with it. :hyst:
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:baby:
Ray, have you thought about darkside?
Robin I don't think I can get a car tire to fit with that 08 swingarm and rear fender. I run a 160/60-18 on the rear. That's about all the wider I can go without changing the fender and swingarm out. Hell I first thought you was talking about the darkside being a M8.
The old Duracell likes to spin the rear tire too much. :smilep: If I'm easy on it...and if I ride like I got some sense I can get a whole season out of a rear tire...but that seems to be my problem...I got no cents. :hyst:
Quote from: No Cents on November 10, 2020, 11:52:21 AM
Robin I don't think I can get a car tire to fit with that 08 swingarm and rear fender. I run a 160/60-18 on the rear. That's about all the wider I can go without changing the fender and swingarm out. Hell I first thought you was talking about the darkside being a M8.
The old Duracell likes to spin the rear tire too much. :smilep: If I'm easy on it...and if I ride like I got some sense I can get a whole season out of a rear tire...but that seems to be my problem...I got no cents. :hyst:
https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=roll%27n%20darkside%20(car%20tires%20on%20motorcycles)
Dont know if you have facebook but this group has lots of info on darkside. Lots of baggers with car tires.
Bob
Friends don't encourage friends to put car tars on thur mowdursickle!! :doh:
nice list , if you want the most stable cam support look at this
http://www.rrcycles.com/shop/cam-support-covers-oil-pumps-c-7_10_14/rr-cycles-2-piece-cam-cover-99-up-p-68.html
also i like their roller rockers better than SS , they also sell the 3 stage pump from sayer for this plate,
i run this on a 116" the cam plate is a beast , i also vent it you dont have to but the option is there
Quote from: itsafatboy on November 10, 2020, 02:24:29 PM
nice list , if you want the most stable cam support look at this
http://www.rrcycles.com/shop/cam-support-covers-oil-pumps-c-7_10_14/rr-cycles-2-piece-cam-cover-99-up-p-68.html
also i like their roller rockers better than SS , they also sell the 3 stage pump from sayer for this plate,
i run this on a 116" the cam plate is a beast , i also vent it you dont have to but the option is there
:scratch:
Quote from: No Cents on November 10, 2020, 11:52:21 AM
Robin I don't think I can get a car tire to fit with that 08 swingarm and rear fender. I run a 160/60-18 on the rear. That's about all the wider I can go without changing the fender and swingarm out. Hell I first thought you was talking about the darkside being a M8.
The old Duracell likes to spin the rear tire too much. :smilep: If I'm easy on it...and if I ride like I got some sense I can get a whole season out of a rear tire...but that seems to be my problem...I got no cents. :hyst:
Well you better get some cents. Stop buying those cheap tires. :hyst:
kd...I'm pretty limited on tire brands to choose from with the size I run. Not too many out there make a 160/60-18 tire. The Metzelers were junk and the Pirelli Angel GT has been the best for me so far from what I've found. It's a nice tire if I can stop from spinning it all the time...but what fun would that be. :hyst:
itsafatboy...thanks for sharing Reggie's R&R camplate. I know they are nice but I don't have one complaint with the Dan Thayer camplate and his 3 stage oil pump that I run.
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'Nuff said buddy. I was just :potstir: :fish:
Did you check runout to make sure you can run gear drive? They're sensitive, you know... More :potstir:
Hoss...the last time I was in there and checked it was still at .0005". I called that close enough for me and I buttoned it back up. But...it's been a few years since I've had it apart. Who knows what it reads now. :hyst:
Come in the house and got a beer . So I though I see what is posted and saw a post that might be interesting . I thought may be Ray decided to go to M8 . Na just roasted tires lol Well at least you can . It is a nice build to say the least
Very nice build that's holding up well! I always enjoy reading this thread. Maybe someone will post a link to a good tire sale, Lol.
Thanks for sharing!!
Do you ever find yourself thinking about getting an M8 and maxing an M8 engine out?
no M8 for me for seen in the near future...but maybe someday. :nix:
Right now I'm super happy with this twin cam. All the bugs are worked out of it and the upgrades that I've done to it have been performing flawlessly. I haven't been in the engine since this last dyno.
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It's nice to be able to hit the starter button and go without worrying about anything. The past few years I've just been doing routine maintenance to it...oil changes, brakes, etc. I did put a Darkhorse Man O War 32 tooth comp in it this year...but it didn't need a new comp. I just wanted to try the Darkhorse unit.
Ray - You can get a rear fender from Native Custom Baggers to fit a 180 on your 08. No swingarm change/mod needed. Just bolt it on. I ran one on my 07 with a 180/55/18 with stock belt/swingarm. The fender Native sells for this is heavy steel. Really nice piece. You can get several options with it as well.
Zach
wow didn't see this was from 2103 , thats why i mentioned the camplate , but yours looks awsome love the cover
Quote from: biggzed on November 12, 2020, 12:50:02 PM
Ray - You can get a rear fender from Native Custom Baggers to fit a 180 on your 08. No swingarm change/mod needed. Just bolt it on. I ran one on my 07 with a 180/55/18 with stock belt/swingarm. The fender Native sells for this is heavy steel. Really nice piece. You can get several options with it as well.
Zach
Yep, I've been running an NCB fender on my 05 w/180 for many years.
Rick
"Right now I'm super happy with this twin cam."
:up: Your TC is making as good a power output as a lot of M8's. I also enjoy reading this thread, keep it going.
Quote from: Deye76 on November 13, 2020, 05:13:44 AM
"Right now I'm super happy with this twin cam."
:up: Your TC is making as good a power output as a lot of M8's. I also enjoy reading this thread, keep it going.
thanks :up: It's a fun bike to ride. I know I smile every time I ride it.
a new skin is on. :smile:
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Nice. Ready for more abuse...
That ought to last you till March 😁
I hope the tire makes it to at least mid next summer. :wink: It's a sticky tire when new so it wants to hook up and lift the front tire all the time...but over time it finally goes to spinning and not lifting the front end all the time.
While waiting on the tire to come in it gave me time to give my chain a good inspection and cleaning. I would normally give the chain a quick wipe off with a rag and then lube it down good every time the bike went up on the lift for an oil change...but I never actually cleaned it good with kerosene. I actually bought one of those Grunge brushes for the first time to clean the chain. I put it to go use once I sprayed the chain down good with the kerosene. I cleaned a small section of chain at a time. I can't believe how much dirt and crud I got out of the chain. Once it was clean I wiped it off with a clean rag to dry it off and then I hit it with the air compressor just for good measure. After I got the back wheel back on and the chain adjusted I lubed it down good. The chain looks 100 times better than it did.
I'd love to ride that sumbitch :teeth: :bike: