HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: ken6217 on December 01, 2017, 06:52:40 AM
Well since we know 160+ is not easily doable, can we now move this thread to Earl's Place and discuss those Blondes in the photo? 

Here is the rest of the bike show and some of the dyno competition.
You may want to click on all three pages.
http://www.fastdates.com/BikeShow2005/BIKESHOW2005.01.HTM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

 Gregg's tuner (Damon) designed and made a complete ecm with all the needed software for his dual t/body set up.
I was told that the ecm set up Damon made costs over 5K if it was to be purchased.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

One of these will do the job.  Gregg has this optimized, but I know a few guys running these on anything from drag cars to a few AFT flat-track bikes.  Lots of midget guys been running these for years.  They work well.
And they live tune
http://pe-ltd.com/engine-control-units.html

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 01:46:18 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

As I said we are in complete agreement as to what a perfect setup would be. In the meantime there are still major gains with doing it using the present ECM until something better is avaliable.

Area scheduling in a dual throat setup is not conducive to making power without major restructuring (serious welding) or an extremely tall motor. Just an FYI to anyone considering this with their typical Harley build; wouldn't want anyone relieved of coin expecting major benefit.

As an example, the b2s on a 126" can safely have the port raised .100 with no weld. That's not close to enough by a country mile. A 124" b2 setup may be better, never measured one.

Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 01:46:18 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

Quote from: gordonr on December 01, 2017, 03:47:47 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 01:46:18 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

I would have to agree with you Gordon, especially when there is so much not available to use, rather you make what you need.

I just look at a big street motor, at times will be subjected to situations to cause heat buildup, and being able to keep the rear cylinder firing and richen it alone, and as well pull only small amounts of timing on that cylinder based on temperature and kPA at the time could certainly help. HD simply shuts them off as they have no other avenue now.

For all out performance, hard running, I agree that wide open running wouldn't gain much from duality of control.

Quote from: gordonr on December 01, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

Thx-
Just a VTwin street bike HP junkie trying to keep pushing it on a bare bones budget, and not blow up more parts.
Yeah, Steve's HP results are incredible. His Race motors make crazy HP (close to 2 hp per cube), as does every part he touches (heads/intake, etc), and he is such a cool guy to work with. Straight up, no games, and he asks you what your goal is, you pay up, and then you get out of his way and let him do his thing. Kinda like Baisley-
As long as you have the patience, and don't bug him, It's golden after that...

 hey Paul...didn't Wes Brown build J Shaheen's 124" for him?
I thought I read that somewhere. 

Quote from: pwmorris on December 01, 2017, 04:24:41 PM

Quote from: gordonr on December 01, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
Hey Paul, Steve's hard work really paid off with his designs. Making a siamese intake perform as good as it does is amazing. Plus the looks definitely means business to boot. Nice builds Paul. Iv'e always admired your work.

Thx-
Just a VTwin street bike HP junkie trying to keep pushing it on a bare bones budget, and not blow up more parts.
Yeah, Steve's HP results are incredible. His Race motors make crazy HP (close to 2 hp per cube), as does every part he touches (heads/intake, etc), and he is such a cool guy to work with. Straight up, no games, and he asks you what your goal is, you pay up, and then you get out of his way and let him do his thing. Kinda like Baisley-
As long as you have the patience, and don't bug him, It's golden after that...

You mean, don't call every day and say, "Is it done yet, is it done yet? When's it gonna be done? I have a big run Saturday, will it be done by then?"
I had a friend do that on a shovel he was having a complete frame up rebuild done. His first bike, I told him not to call and bother him before he even started the project. But, he couldn't help himself.
Guess how that turned out.

  never mind Paul...I knew I read it somewhere. It was right on Cycle-Rama's web page.

[attach=0]

Quote from: Hossamania on December 01, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
You mean, don't call every day and say, "Is it done yet, is it done yet? When's it gonna be done? I have a big run Saturday, will it be done by then?"
I had a friend do that on a shovel he was having a complete frame up rebuild done. His first bike, I told him not to call and bother him before he even started the project. But, he couldn't help himself.
Guess how that turned out.

I did some major rebuild work on a car for a friend. I told him it would take a couple months. He said it was ok, lets do it. About a week into the project he called and wondered if he could get the car back sooner as his situation changed! I told him I will try pick up the pace a bit, but beings I had a full time job and this was a side line I wouldn't get it done much sooner. He kept bugging me until one day I had enough and I told him to come over the next day and pick it up. I pushed it out in the driveway and put all the parts in the trunk. He was surprised as he thought it was done, but I told him I was tired of him bothering me about it when I told him it would take a couple months to get it done and just because his situation changed it was not my problem. He finally idled down, and let me do it at my pace. He never asked me about it again even though we talked a couple times a week.

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 04:02:07 PM

Quote from: gordonr on December 01, 2017, 03:47:47 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 01:46:18 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:59:58 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:53:04 AM

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 01, 2017, 10:35:38 AM

Quote from: louloupa on December 01, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
why are the tb never separated on each cylinder?  Normally, it gives more power .

You first need an ECM that can be tuned for dual throttle bores, as well as monitor each cylinders conditions.

It is not the ECM, it is how you set it up, the Dual throat V-Rods use the same ECM as the Twin cams.
I know of a couple that are in the works as we speak.

I would think it would be more optimized if there were separate channels completely.

Why?

My logic would be similar to why dual carbonated V-twins often have different jets in the front and rear carburetors. It allows you to tune each cylinder infinitely in separation. Open loop, maybe not such a big deal, but closed loop there could be a lot of benefit.

Twin cams already have individual timing and VE maps for each cylinder, the map sensor is the main thing shared and if you install it in a connector port it can be tuned. I am sure dual Map sensors would be even better but the V-Rods work so the single Map sensor does not take away any of the benefit of dual twin runners. It is more about real estate, and if your willing to go total custom where form follows function there are gains. The benefits start to disappear when you try to fit everything in a stock space like the HD MM throttle bodies or the S&S two throats.

Yep, know there are front and rear tables for many areas of the MAP. Other than benefit from being dual throat, and probably a better air flow to the head, I would still think there's still benefit to complete individuality of adjustments and MAP and temperature monitoring.

I did exactly that with regards to the temp monitoring. I chose a universal EMS-4 ecu from AEM to accomplish the individual inputs as well as egt's. I did make a sheet metal intake with single runners dumping into a plenum so I chose the single map sensor route. I can say going out of the box has not been a cheap experience by any means.

I would have to agree with you Gordon, especially when there is so much not available to use, rather you make what you need.

I just look at a big street motor, at times will be subjected to situations to cause heat buildup, and being able to keep the rear cylinder firing and richen it alone, and as well pull only small amounts of timing on that cylinder based on temperature and kPA at the time could certainly help. HD simply shuts them off as they have no other avenue now.

For all out performance, hard running, I agree that wide open running wouldn't gain much from duality of control.

I am sorry I thought this was about individual TBs
If you want to talk about better ECMs for harleys that is fine to.
As you said big powerful HD builds on the street would definately benefit from individual cylinder software regardless of the intake tract design.

 I don't need a 124 inch that makes 160 horse power but I was looking forward to seeing what it takes . For instance heads that flow in the 340 or more . Camshaft that has x amount of intake duration . Well you can  use a lot of exhaust duration like what is  on the 143 but I think there other ways to get there . Intake of a certain size that will flow with the head cfm . Pipe size and muffler size . Good ring seal ect  . To make that horse power you can buzz it up past 6500 and still  make torque , or more torque and less rpm .  Something to be said about turbo motors that don't have to be so big just add some boost

Quote from: No Cents on December 01, 2017, 05:53:49 PM
  never mind Paul...I knew I read it somewhere. It was right on Cycle-Rama's web page.

[attach=0]

Wonder how that 200 HP motor would feel in your bagger Ray?
I remember talking to Shaheen when Cyclerama was building that motor (BTW, he also has a 550 HP turbo Busa'), and told him SA should do his intake and fuel delivery system. SA said that it was a fun project, and something he doesn't normally do...
For sure, that 200 HP 124" was built for one purpose...Dyno shootouts. Not for racing, touring, or other types of riding, but I love that. An owner who focuses on what they want, what their goals are, what they expect, and finds the right team of top pros to get them there.
Result? A winner....

    a 200hp engine in my bike would be crazy. I'll just be happy with what I got. It's a lot of fun to ride.
Julio has a badass bike...no doubt about it. That engine was built specifically for making big horsepower. 

No doubt, you have plenty of HP for your hot street Bagger Ray .
Every owner should take a real, honest (here is where many falter), assessment of their goals and what kind of riding they do most of the time. Yours is dialed in, big time-