EV27 ok at 9.9 static compression?

[Ohio HD]

Adam, just my 2 cents. If I read this correctly, you have a softail that's just a reliable daily rider, and you want a little more kick when you twist the wick, rarely taken above 4500rpm. Point A to Point B with a little fun in between. This pretty much describes my '92 softail. Mine is also 9.5:1 done via 50 thou off the heads, using a Crane 300-2B cam which is more or less like an Andrews EV-13. No fancy port work, if you are not going to be reving it up, it doesn't need it. Not saying it will hurt, but it doesn't really add anything either. A HP or two, in the noise, unnoticeable in the real world. I say listen to your new Aussie pal Arseclown, keep it basic, ride it and have fun.

-JW

^^^^^^^^^
What he says.


   

[thumper 823]

AT the very beginning he was warned of the slippery slope and we barely got started.
I could quite is go though 5K doing this in just parts.
But some of us are just gearhead nutz!
I love watching twinks trying to catch me!
We are all victims of our own experiences, know-how, and what works for us.
For instance, -piston rings as I stated.  Why run 30 lbs of resistance and be turning all the energy into heat? 
It could be better used at the rear tire.
If an engine is being resisted by 30 lbs per stroke per piston that is a "*HOLE"  lot of energy up in smoke.  (*whole of course)
I hope it all goes well for you Adam and good luck.
Take special care of your piston rings no matter whose you use.  (go back to my thread)

[98fxstc]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

Don't take any notice of this crap.
This is the excuse that the local 'experts' on our hdforums australia trot out for not getting the same results with their builds.
Gas and climate and altitude vary much more in the US than they do in Australia.
A build comes down to the method and the combination of parts.

These guys in the US have been working on Harleys since they were old enough to ride and are happy to share their knowledge and experience.
The forum 'experts' in Australia regurgitate the crap that they pick up from the Dealers.

My first Evo mods were EV27 (a recommendation from Nightrider.com) and Crane Hi4 ignition, S&S lifters and Andrews adjustable push rods and lose the crossover exhaust.
My next step was SE heads and 10.5:1 pistons with SE57 cam.
I have zero deck and 0.027" head gasket for a beautiful running motor and about 90hp.
Not long after I built it I put it in the local Dealers dyno shootout and won the Evo section.
A few months later I did an Ironbutt 1000 Ride from Melbourne to Brisbane. Never missed a beat.
I rode solo from south of Tassie to Margaret River WA , crossed the Nullabor in stinkin' heat and never missed a beat.

I have a 09 110 Fatbob at 126hp, 118 ftlb built with tips and information gleaned from this site.
You will get the same results as these guys if you listen and learn.

You were looking at 0.030" hg , then went back out to 0.035''
0.030 is better for combustion efficiency and a sweeter running bike.

And when you finish get it tuned.
By someone who knows what they are doing.

[Adam76]

Adam, just my 2 cents. If I read this correctly, you have a softail that's just a reliable daily rider, and you want a little more kick when you twist the wick, rarely taken above 4500rpm. Point A to Point B with a little fun in between. This pretty much describes my '92 softail. Mine is also 9.5:1 done via 50 thou off the heads, using a Crane 300-2B cam which is more or less like an Andrews EV-13. No fancy port work, if you are not going to be reving it up, it doesn't need it. Not saying it will hurt, but it doesn't really add anything either. A HP or two, in the noise, unnoticeable in the real world. I say listen to your new Aussie pal Arseclown, keep it basic, ride it and have fun.

-JW

Hey JW,  I think you have our summed up pretty good.
Cheers

[Adam76]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

Don't take any notice of this crap.
This is the excuse that the local 'experts' on our hdforums australia trot out for not getting the same results with their builds.
Gas and climate and altitude vary much more in the US than they do in Australia.
A build comes down to the method and the combination of parts.

These guys in the US have been working on Harleys since they were old enough to ride and are happy to share their knowledge and experience.
The forum 'experts' in Australia regurgitate the crap that they pick up from the Dealers.

My first Evo mods were EV27 (a recommendation from Nightrider.com) and Crane Hi4 ignition, S&S lifters and Andrews adjustable push rods and lose the crossover exhaust.
My next step was SE heads and 10.5:1 pistons with SE57 cam.
I have zero deck and 0.027" head gasket for a beautiful running motor and about 90hp.
Not long after I built it I put it in the local Dealers dyno shootout and won the Evo section.
A few months later I did an Ironbutt 1000 Ride from Melbourne to Brisbane. Never missed a beat.
I rode solo from south of Tassie to Margaret River WA , crossed the Nullabor in stinkin' heat and never missed a beat.

I have a 09 110 Fatbob at 126hp, 118 ftlb built with tips and information gleaned from this site.
You will get the same results as these guys if you listen and learn.

You were looking at 0.030" hg , then went back out to 0.035''
0.030 is better for combustion efficiency and a sweeter running bike.

And when you finish get it tuned.
By someone who knows what they are doing.

Hey 98, thanks for the input.... now you've thrown a cat amongst the pigeons.... 😁.
I was all set at the beginning to do a 10.1 comp build but got scared out of it... Oh well. I'm sure I'll be happy with my basic build.
Cheers.  👍

[Arseclown]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

[Don D]

It isn't all that hard to move up the ladder as explained in nightrider.com. My go to cam back in the day after the EV27 wasn't enough was the Crane H286-2B at 10.5:1. That with the SE performance heads would get you 90+hp and now be looking at a bigger carb, E or Mik 42, for more power. Back in the day the SE heads were a fair value compared to what shops were charging to weld and rework the stock heads to get them to work. Time moves on and there are different and better ways today, plus the SE heads are gone unless you find them used and they are decent.  Doug Coffey did a nice job on the stock heads years ago and had a good solution for the wall next to the valves, The heads ended up at 72cc IIRC and he had special domes to fit the chamber.

[Adam76]

It isn't all that hard to move up the ladder as explained in nightrider.com. My go to cam back in the day after the EV27 wasn't enough was the Crane H286-2B at 10.5:1. That with the SE performance heads would get you 90+hp and now be looking at a bigger carb, E or Mik 42, for more power. Back in the day the SE heads were a fair value compared to what shops were charging to weld and rework the stock heads to get them to work. Time moves on and there are different and better ways today, plus the SE heads are gone unless you find them used and they are decent.  Doug Coffey did a nice job on the stock heads years ago and had a good solution for the wall next to the valves, The heads ended up at 72cc IIRC and he had special domes to fit the chamber.

Appreciate the feedback and experience you have , but this level of complexity of build is definitely not what I'm looking for.  I need a simple and reliable combo which I think I now have.
Thanks

[Adam76]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

Thanks mate, and is great to see posts where opinions differ without any attitude or insult.
Cheers

[98fxstc]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

The temperature where I live varies from 0° to 40°C  (32° to 105° F) and I ride all year round.
I have ridden at 0° in the Central Highlands in the middle of winter and I have ridden from one end of the state to the other when the tar snakes were melting and some bitumen repairs were moving under the wheels.
We can run equivalent compression here to what they run in the US
I tune my Fatbob with TTS and put it on the dyno to do WOT and get final numbers.
My ccp is 220psi and my bike runs happily on 95 and I can go to 92 or 98 with no problems.
Anyone who believes they have to run their bike on 98 is having a lend of themselves.

Back to Adam's bike:
Once he gets his compression worked out, any competent Auto head shop should be able to shave the heads and cc them.
Any dyno shop can check the tune with a tailpipe sniffer and swap the jets.
Then again there is a shop at Mundaring, less than 30 kms from Perth where one of the country's top Tuners operates.

[Adam76]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

The temperature where I live varies from 0° to 40°C  (32° to 105° F) and I ride all year round.
I have ridden at 0° in the Central Highlands in the middle of winter and I have ridden from one end of the state to the other when the tar snakes were melting and some bitumen repairs were moving under the wheels.
We can run equivalent compression here to what they run in the US
I tune my Fatbob with TTS and put it on the dyno to do WOT and get final numbers.
My ccp is 220psi and my bike runs happily on 95 and I can go to 92 or 98 with no problems.
Anyone who believes they have to run their bike on 98 is having a lend of themselves.

Back to Adam's bike:
Once he gets his compression worked out, any competent Auto head shop should be able to shave the heads and cc them.
Any dyno shop can check the tune with a tailpipe sniffer and swap the jets.
Then again there is a shop at Mundaring, less than 30 kms from Perth where one of the country's top Tuners operates.

98, appreciate the input.
With such a simple build like mine, is cc'ing the heads even worth it? What should they be cc'ed down to?
The workshop and dyno tuner you're referring to has changed hands.

And also, how do you get your bike to 220psi and not have pinging issues??
Cheers

[jsachs1]

Everything you describe I do at the price I stated. It is nothing special, just a machine form tool valve job and top cut on the exhaust opens the wall up to unschroud the valve. Cutter looks similar to the one I attached but not the exact same.
The OP wants to use pistons instead of milling, OK fine too, it is a small dome and works well.

Serdi # 620 is the one I use. Very versatile.
John

[thumper 823]

"Salip-rery slope>"  LOL
If you are going to run a higher Cr ratio I would install AFR gauge .
It brings me much comfort.
Takes the guesswork out of carb tunning and the system can be monitored.

[Adam76]

For instance, -piston rings as I stated.  Why run 30 lbs of resistance and be turning all the energy into heat?
It could be better used at the rear tire.
If an engine is being resisted by 30 lbs per stroke per piston that is a "*HOLE"  lot of energy up in smoke.  (*whole of course)
I hope it all goes well for you Adam and good luck.
Take special care of your piston rings no matter whose you use.  (go back to my thread)

Hey thumper, can you please explain what you mean with the piston rings and their resistance , and how to avoid it?  My KB forged pistons come with a set of rings....
Thanks 👍

[thumper 823]

All resistance in an engine is a waste. So one tries to minimize the losses.
Stock piston rings will take up to and even over (depending on brand) 30 pounds and more to push the piston dwn the cylinder.!! [attach=0,msg1342611]
This is wasted power and it all goes up in friction which is heat.
Ideally, you would have zero resistance in a purrfect world which we have not done yet..
A good ring pack will net a lot less if you ask for it,  some are adjustable by bending the oil control ring tabs slightly in.
also, note there is a "right-side-up using the typical  oil control ring spacer
most of these points are very much overlooked all the time to a person that wants to slam on a set of big-bore /high CR slugs .
The devil is in the details .
Note the special coating on the piston? [attach=1,msg1342611]
adjusting ring drag [attach=3,msg1342611]

[Adam76]

Thanks thumper, that's great info.  👍

[Racepres]

Thanks thumper, that's great info.  👍

Been doing it for years... But, be aware... I do Not do that with street motors anymore... good way to make an oil burner... or... carry on if ya don't care about a bit of Smoke at lower cylinder pressures [Idle]

[thumper 823]

I had 20k on the last rebuild.It never burned drop a drop. I had them set at 15 pounds.
Every internet guy said the same thing to me too. It might be true for the aluminum cylinders as they move and change shape.
The nodular type are solid.
Last year I went to 10 lbs of drag.
Still no problems.
The devil is in the details I say over and over again.
Dont INSTALL rings with out a proper ring expander either as doing so with fingers deforms them.
Did i say the devil is in the details?
RINGS and exhaust valves are the hardest working parts in any engine.
Take time to understand more then the average instructions.

[Racepres]

I had 20k on the last rebuild.It never burned drop a drop. I had them set at 15 pounds.
Every internet guy said the same thing to me too. It might be true for the aluminum cylinders as they move and change shape.
The nodular type are solid.
Last year I went to 10 lbs of drag.
Still no problems.
The devil is in the details I say over and over again.
Dont INSTALL rings with out a proper ring expander either as doing so with fingers deforms them.
Did i say the devil is in the details?
RINGS and exhaust valves are the hardest working parts in any engine.
Take time to understand more then the average instructions.

Yup...Average instructions... last bike we reduced Oil ring "drag" on,  set 7 National records!!!
We shoulda done better...

[thumper 823]

Yup...Average instructions... last bike we reduced Oil ring "drag" on,  set 7 National records!!!
We shoulda done better...
[/quote]


Are you being cantankerous ??

If so-
This really gets old .
If you want to post what you know please do so.
We are all here to learn.
I pass on what works for me .
Simple.
I don't need to jade anyone.
In this forum, I /we pass on what we have learned. I don't repeat internet chatter, or try to be an armchair racer which I am not.
I post from experience with my stuff.
Yes you know it all cause you are on a quarter-mile ticket, hats off, the rest of us are just plain ass stupid.
Right?
LOL
Maybe you should have done better?
IDK and don't care.
Are you being caustic and sarcastic about the piston rings friction?
No amount of ring friction is going to match the force generated by the outward ring force generated at TDC on the compression/power stroke.
What we can do is recoup the losses on the exhaust to intake stroke.
There is no reason for a good ring pack to allow blow-by.
I have the living proof right here anyone can come see, come look.
I have the picture of the scale pressing the piston dwn
This all works for me!
As I said- i don't run AL cylinders which may allow this all of this to work.

I/we actually ride this bike top Sturgis and everywhere and trailer it no fkn where.
The point is you cannot build a street engine for the race track and versa visa.
You can reach a lot of pf compromises and get a very good street engine.
I run 50 deg seats and a LOT of other little mods , Very unheard of on the street.

Do I expect 100K out of this thing?
Hell no.
If you make a lot of mods and ask a lot from any engine, should you expect to be a high mileage machine?
NO
The devil is the details?

Yes,  they are!    And TBO is linear  (time B4 overhaul)
The more asked the less time and miles  it will give you.
I don't expect 100K miles out of my machine as it is way over one to one. Does anyone Notice  HD build to about 65%?
If you get near or past one to one,  the overhaul line on the graph gets shorter and shorter

I am not here to Bragg not even one OZ of anything.
So I will agree to disagree with your snide remark if it was- if not I had a good rant -LOL

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1342719]  [attach=1,msg1342719]  [attach=2,msg1342719]  [attach=3,msg1342719]

showing 0.026 squish,
Ceramic parts, magic skirts all done at Swains .
Lightened balanced pistons  all done in my caveman two-car garage

[JW113]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

[thumper 823]

I have run the D.M 530 Cam B4 and it pulls really well.
No complaints.
It works great even on my bike which is Heavy and two-up touring machine.
It is sort of a bolt in. I think Dave recommends better springs.
Coil bind and rocker clearance ETC should always be checked anyway.
Always replace your cam bearing with any cam if yours has not already been replaced.
People argue this point with me and feel free too-
I had a problem with the pinion nut coming  loose on my bike! 
That is why I took it apart at 20K (slightly bent valves ) and I mean ever so slightly
With this rebuild and a bigger cam, I followed all the golden rules checked the TIR ETC( which is 3.5 thou) Using Fueling measuring jig, not a  cobbed apparatus.
Then...and then I tigged  the nut it in two spots     LOL
I dont want this to EVER happen again.
I can quite EZ grind the welds off when the time comes.
That pinion Nut is so small and the woodruff key that locks the pinion gear is only a hangnail of protrusion...
I will not ever trust another with an above-average bump stick.
You all carry on.
We love to help spend your money!

[Deye76]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

As usual JW113 giving practical, street usable information.
Who gives a flyin' flip about what someone did on the track years ago. Doesn't come close to applying to what the OP is trying to accomplish.

[Adam76]

Thanks guys, I think I pretty much have the cam / compression sorted. Keeping it real simple and very practical for budget and streetability reasons.
It will be either ev27 with 9.5 forged pistons, 0.032 squish at 9.5 comp and heads cc'd at 83, 183ccp,  9.2 dynamic comp

Or DME 500 with 10.1 Wiseco pistons, 0.032 squish set at 9.9 static comp and 9.2 dynamic comp 191 ccp.

Both will be great builds I'm sure and definitely pushing the upper limits of how far I want to go with this build. Also doing this with no headwork.

I'd like to go with the DME 500 build if I can even though I can't find a single mild build with this cam.  Maybe I'll be the test mule 😀

Thanks again for all the advice, I'll be starting a thread during the build as I'm sure I'll need a tip or two.

Cheers