disapointing again

[hotbo]

my uncle just had his bike re-tuned at rpm cycles in oklahoma city oklahoma,yesterday.he spend several hours about 7 to be exact with the tuner which his name is buddy moore supper guy and tuner imo.back in june they tuned it the first time the #s were terrible and found it was sumping alittle.so he fixed that rode it this summer and was still a turd so he decided to retry again :horse:here is his bike

2006 deuce 95 inch
dan vance 1.90 ported heads
kb-flat tops
9.8-1
tw37bs cams
2-1 t-header
power commander
kuryakn high five a/c

his new #S were 81-88 isnt that funny :angry:he spent alot of money on products and tuning for that,lol!!!!

the dyno guy said that he was having to take away fuel to compensate for the no breathing of the engine.he felt like the engine was not breathing good.
they checked for sumping again and took the a/c off to no gain or find

he is going to fax me the dyno sheets today if someone will post them for me i would be greatful.my e-mail is wilsondyna@hotmail.com

we need to find the problem before he beats me over the head for talking him into this package and building the mill

im not bashing dan vance he seems to be a very nice guy and helpful.but my uncle is sick of chasing way down #S imo and his and the tuners.wasting more dyno time and money so any help diagnosing  the problem would be great thanks travis

[GoFast.....]

my uncle just had his bike re-tuned at rpm cycles in oklahoma city oklahoma,yesterday.he spend several hours about 7 to be exact with the tuner which his name is buddy moore supper guy and tuner imo.back in june they tuned it the first time the #s were terrible and found it was sumping alittle.so he fixed that rode it this summer and was still a turd so he decided to retry again :horse:here is his bike

2006 deuce 95 inch
dan vance 1.90 ported heads
kb-flat tops
9.8-1
tw37bs cams
2-1 t-header
power commander
kuryakn high five a/c

his new #S were 81-88 isnt that funny :angry:he spent alot of money on products and tuning for that,lol!!!!

the dyno guy said that he was having to take away fuel to compensate for the no breathing of the engine.he felt like the engine was not breathing good.
they checked for sumping again and took the a/c off to no gain or find

he is going to fax me the dyno sheets today if someone will post them for me i would be greatful.my e-mail is wilsondyna@hotmail.com

we need to find the problem before he beats me over the head for talking him into this package and building the mill

im not bashing dan vance he seems to be a very nice guy and helpful.but my uncle is sick of chasing way down #S imo and his and the tuners.wasting more dyno time and money so any help diagnosing  the problem would be great thanks travis

Travis I feel you man, We need the cc of the heads and the head gasket size to start with and is this carbarated

[hotbo]

hey gofast the cc of the heads i dont know dan was suppose to cut them to make  9.8-1 compression.the h.g is a .030 cometic ans the pistons were in the hole .005 and .006

it is fuel injected.im hoping he will fax me the sheets in alittle while

[KingofCubes]

This is exactly why after hand porting heads for 17 years myself I quit hand porting heads. You don't address core shift when you hand port heads. I would have 8 out of ten happy customers and two like this out of every 10. I no longer have this problem. The 5 axis cnc machine pops out carbon units that are easy to tune and the customer support I get from R&R Cycle is great. I have 3 bikes here with these reworked heads and they all have very good manners.

[Sonny S.]

Something ain't right but I doubt it's the heads. Heck, you can get those #'s from an 88"er with TW37's.
Maybe cam timing is off ?

[hotbo]

hey sonny the cam timing has been checked 2 times once again by me and my uncles they are 5 hours away from me so its hard to go be with the tuner when he is tuning the bike,but buddy almost swears the bike is not breathing properly.i really dont know what is wrong not blaming anyone here :idea:just want to get ideas and figure something out before he "Potty mouth" cans the whole package and i have to re-fund him some money.


yes those #S are terrible a properly tuned 88 with those cams come close and a new 96 bike with a cam can beat that. :horse:the bike starts good. sounds good just runs outta steam quick and then your left with nothing.

[ICANTD55]

Compression test then leak down both cylinders.

[hotbo]

Compression test then leak down both cylinders.

i really doubt that will show up anything out of the ordinary but ya never know :horse:the bike has been never once puffed a lick of smoke or acted funny other than no power.and i mean it has power just not what it should have

[Hybredhog]

  Did the tuner play with the timing aspect, and T-headers aren't exactly low end torque power friendly?...Jeff

[Don D]

Check the compression and report back. I suspect either engine health or a tune issue. I remember hearing Herko saying he changes vacuum pump filters often, this is critical to proper sampling, also timing.

[hotbo]

i talked to my uncle and he says that he is done the tuner is well known in the area and says its the intake in the heads.he told my uncle he had to add alot of negative numbers to the intake part whatever that means im not even gonna guess buddys tune hes really spot on with tuning bikes. dynojet 250i. power commander tuning link and many classes plus years of experience. my uncles and  him trust each other. he told  them its in the intake of the heads so what do i do argue with a good tuner and engine builder. he uses steve at GMR alot. buddy builds very sound and extremely well running engines so im gonna guess he knows what hes saying. it really sucks being stuck in the middle

he is going to fax me the sheets this afternoon if anyone wants to post them for me??

[hotbo]

anyone want to post the sheets i have them

[GoFast.....]

anyone want to post the sheets i have them

Either he can live with or the heads need to come off if you trust the tuner and the builder and be checked, But I would see what the ccc is first

[hotbo]

well he has made his mind up they are coming off.

[hotroadking]

Do you have a compression tester, if so run it on both cyl, in case you haven't done it before
remove the plugs, take off ac and then put the tester in either the front or rear plug hole.
Open throttle 100% (cold bike) and crank starter, after about 3 revolutions you should be at max pressure, do both cyl and report back the numbers.

Do it before he removes these heads or you won't know where you are starting from...

Its difficult enough to determine what is wrong on the net without all the data.

Also if your charts are PDF or image files (.jpg) when you post just attach them to the message you will see a button below the post for Manage Attachments simple to do.

[mayor]

anyone want to post the sheets i have them

Travis,
if you want the sheets posted I sent you a instant message with my fax number.

[ICANTD55]

9.8:1 TW37 ,flat tops ,I would Think 180-185 # With .030hg & 0 deck . if you got that,,,  have at the heads.
as long as it is not still sumping.

Just sayin. better to be sure ,doesent take long. 

[mayor]

9.8:1 TW37 ,flat tops ,I would Think 180-185 # With .030hg & 0 deck . if you got that,,,  have at the heads.
as long as it is not still sumping.

Just sayin. better to be sure ,doesent take long. 

don't forget that the CCP is dependant on elevation. 

[ICANTD55]

Sorry forgot what the elevation was in Oklahoma all I remember about Oklahoma is it was flat... I figured around sea level.

[GoFast.....]

9.8:1 TW37 ,flat tops ,I would Think 180-185 # With .030hg & 0 deck . if you got that,,,  have at the heads.
as long as it is not still sumping.

Just sayin. better to be sure ,doesent take long. 

don't forget that the CCP is dependant on elevation. 

I am talking about actual tested ccp at his location

[ICANTD55]

go fast we all are.


Just trying to give him something to shoot for.The calculator that I have doesent have the elevation so maybe wannabmayor can factor that in and narrow it down a bit.

[hotbo]

elevation is less than 1,000 feet yeah its flat,lol!!!!

the cranking compression cold is 170-173 front to rear.

this has been checked.thanks guys im not bashing anyone or trying to for that matter

it is not sumping this also has been checked several times since it was fixed.

wannabe thanks i will send them to you.


i have alot of respect for all of  you,but i cant think of anything else it could be

[hotbo]

fax sent mike,thanks travis

[FLTRI]

"it is not sumping this also has been checked several times since it was fixed."

Did you know how they checked for sumping?

Also, if you can get the dyno sheet listed as a picture in your meesage then all can see it rather than only those who pay.

If the engine is sumping it should show up on the graph as a big drop in power from about 3500-4000 up!
And does you uncle notice the engine running hot at all?

If the engine is truely not sumping there is really nothing more from a forum that can be done as I believe the bike needs to be evaluated by someone other than a guy who simply says the engine isn't breathing. (this comment also leads me down the sumping path)
Bob

[sean fxd]

<<Also, if you can get the dyno sheet listed as a picture in your meesage then all can see it rather than only those who pay.>>

This is not VTF...this is HTT...you don't have to pay to see no stinkin dyno sheets!

Sean

[se]

i talked to my uncle and he says that he is done the tuner is well known in the area and says its the intake in the heads.he told my uncle he had to add alot of negative numbers to the intake part whatever that means im not even gonna guess buddys tune hes really spot on with tuning bikes. dynojet 250i. power commander tuning link and many classes plus years of experience. my uncles and  him trust each other. he told  them its in the intake of the heads so what do i do argue with a good tuner and engine builder. he uses steve at GMR alot. buddy builds very sound and extremely well running engines so im gonna guess he knows what hes saying. it really sucks being stuck in the middle

he is going to fax me the sheets this afternoon if anyone wants to post them for me??

If he uses GMR then he got the R&R heads. GMR uses R&R as  far as porting heads steve dont port heads dont know how. , GMR is a mail order shop he just went into business with some one and got a dyno and a new place. i hope your buddy didnt let Steve from GMR try tuning the bike steve cannot tune .
sorry to bash him but these are facts.

if the guy knows the problem why dont he fix it. first off the real good engine builders and tuners would of never left the piston in the hole.. they would of trimmed the bottom of the cylinders to acheive ZERO deck.
you cannot have consistent builds or even good ones until everything is corect. 
you need a good base to operate off of he probley pulled timing out because it was pinging.
if the guy knows the problem is in the intake of the heads then its the heads, there are a lot of real porters out ther who get great power from their products obviously the guy who ported those heads should re-do them
G

[FLTRI]

<<Also, if you can get the dyno sheet listed as a picture in your meesage then all can see it rather than only those who pay.>>

This is not VTF...this is HTT...you don't have to pay to see no stinkin dyno sheets!

Sean

OOOOPS, I have to admit I'm a bit embarassed.

[mayor]

Travis,  both sheets cam through but neither was read able.  try again and I'll let you know if they come through. 

elevation is less than 1,000 feet yeah its flat,lol!!!!

the cranking compression cold is 170-173 front to rear

176# is what I calculated based on elevation, so let's assume that what was measured is close enough. 

[metaliser]

This thread is so close to my deal it's not even funny, not trying to hijack this thread but I have HQ 0034's 95" BigBoyz heads KB flatops 9.5 comp, 81 hp and 93.5tq, the tuner said that he felt something was holding it back, I thought it might be the V&H's tru duals with rush mufflers, 2" baffles, I still have 8 degree injectors do your uncle, my bike seems to run better at 80% throttle or say 90 throttle than it does at wfo, might be the injectors, I don't know.

[GoFast.....]

<<Also, if you can get the dyno sheet listed as a picture in your meesage then all can see it rather than only those who pay.>>

This is not VTF...this is HTT...you don't have to pay to see no stinkin dyno sheets!

Sean

OOOOPS, I have to admit I'm a bit embarassed.

I never let those words form in my mouth let alone let my fingers type them

[OKLARACIN]

THE ELAVATION HERE IN OKC IS 1100 FEET.           HOWARD     VEE TWIN PERFORMANCE

[GoFast.....]

This thread is so close to my deal it's not even funny, not trying to hijack this thread but I have HQ 0034's 95" BigBoyz heads KB flatops 9.5 comp, 81 hp and 93.5tq, the tuner said that he felt something was holding it back, I thought it might be the V&H's tru duals with rush mufflers, 2" baffles, I still have 8 degree injectors do your uncle, my bike seems to run better at 80% throttle or say 90 throttle than it does at wfo, might be the injectors, I don't know.

you need a flow sheet from port people you can trust and those 34s need a lot more compression than that

[jvcazcm]

I am sure someone has checked this or you even asked yourself the question.  The TW37 cams are not high lift, however is there a chance just a small one that the intake and exhaust valves are not opening enough?  If you installed .030 gaskets and also installed new cams with less base dia wouldn't that cause the valves not to open enough.  The .030 would actually open them more, however if you installed adj pushrods that would have to be adj.  Now if you did install the .030 gaskets and no adj pushrods with the new base dia of the cams you would be hanging the valves open.  If you installed roller rockers they could also hold the intake valves open, the way I have checked them in the past is to take a compression tester and remove the gauge from the hose and take out the valve stem seal meaning the hose is free flowing.  Then install it in the spark plug hole and by mouth put pressure in it at TDC.  If you have any air excape you have a valve hanging open.  Yes you could do the same thing with a complete leak down check and all that stuff, however this is a quick way to check if you are opening too much. 

   Again I think it is something to do the valve geometerty.  Will be nice to find out what it really is.   Good luck

jvc

[mayor]

you need a flow sheet from port people you can trust and those 34s need a lot more compression than that

I don't know much about flow benches, but isn't it possible that velocity can be affected but flow numbers be in line?  I would also note that 9.5:1 is pretty close to 9:1 corrected with a 36 degree intake close. 

[Faast Ed]

well he has made his mind up they are coming off. 

As long as the heads are off, he ought to fix his deck height. No reason to run down the hole when cutting down the cylinders is not expensive.

[dsvracer]

Hi Guys,
I am dan vance, the porter of these heads. I have a money back guarantee, if you are not satisfied with my heads you can return them for a full refund,
"NO QUESTIONS ASKED".  I have offered this man a custom map for my motor combinations, but he will not even try it. I have also told him that my performance kits do not work well with big open exhaust like the thunder header, still no co-operation.  Put the heads in a box and return to me for a full refund. I know it's not the heads as I have well over 100 bikes out there with over 100 torque and hp. But if this man is not happy please send them back.  dan vance

[hotbo]

hey guys i put it together time was a issue so i didnt have the cylinders cut to 0 deck,again this is not gonna make this kinda hp lose.


the bike is not sumping period

mike i will re-fax this morning sorry.

some of you seem to be offended by this post or is it me :idea:i really could care less about who steve at gmr gets his stuff from ive never used him and probably never will doesnt mean i think hes bad,im sure hes a great guy :up:i was just stating that is who rpm cycles,buddy moore uses for his componets

i was wanting help maybe addressing the  issue and so far you guys have helped alot imo just like always,thank you all for the advice

yes it has adj.pushrods.yes they are adjusted correct,thanks guys ill try to re-send the sheets,travis

[hotbo]

Hi Guys,
I am dan vance, the porter of these heads. I have a money back guarantee, if you are not satisfied with my heads you can return them for a full refund,
"NO QUESTIONS ASKED".  I have offered this man a custom map for my motor combinations, but he will not even try it. I have also told him that my performance kits do not work well with big open exhaust like the thunder header, still no co-operation.  Put the heads in a box and return to me for a full refund. I know it's not the heads as I have well over 100 bikes out there with over 100 torque and hp. But if this man is not happy please send them back.  dan vance

hey dan yes you have been nice,thanks. what else do i do a custom map he has had several of those,hooked up to a dynojet250i with tuning link and buddy done alot of things trying to find the problem big open exh. not sure what this means they imo and alot of others are 1 of the ebst performing exh.out there so what exh.is gonna fix the problem if a 2-1 is not the key .sorry if you take offense to this and i have enjoyed dealing with you on and off the phone.you are making me sound like im impossible and that is not the case hes not happy and im trying to make him happy.maybe the tuner me and alot of guys im involved with that have been in bikes for alot longer than me no nothing of what they are talking about.thanks travis

[Faast Ed]

hey guys i put it together time was a issue so i didnt have the cylinders cut to 0 deck,again this is not gonna make this kinda hp lose.

I didn't mean to imply that was the problem.  I was just sayin' that it would be a good idea to correct it as long as the heads were coming off again.
Deck height counts.

[ICANTD55]

Did the dyno guy try to increase the back pressure with the tabs in the thunder header? 

[hotbo]

hey guys i put it together time was a issue so i didnt have the cylinders cut to 0 deck,again this is not gonna make this kinda hp lose.

I didn't mean to imply that was the problem.  I was just sayin' that it would be a good idea to correct it as long as the heads were coming off again.
Deck height counts.

yes ed i totally agree and it will be addressed this go around

hey guys im sorry if it sounds like im bashing anyone on here :wink:im in the middle i talked him into this and he is not happy at all.he is my family so that helps i feel bad for him and the porter.

he has made his mind up that its the product and nothing else,so what im i to do :idea:im not dumb or ignorant i have checked many other aspects as well as the tuner and a good engine guy.he listens to him alot.i mean this with the greatest respect to all engine builders and tuners around.


you all are great guys,with alot of great info.thanks for any and all help,travis

[hotbo]

Did the dyno guy try to increase the back pressure with the tabs in the thunder header? 

no he did not.it has a slight torque dip in the middle.i told my uncle to play with this but they felt no need to after the final numbers

[ICANTD55]

slight torque dip in the middle

No clutch slip?
Sorry I dont give up easy.

[GoFast.....]

Did the dyno guy try to increase the back pressure with the tabs in the thunder header? 

no he did not.it has a slight torque dip in the middle.i told my uncle to play with this but they felt no need to after the final numbers

Those numbers are so bad that afther you check the compression those heads need to come off. Travis If you were closer I would jump in
and help you. But Denver and the OZARK MOUNTIANS is a little longer than across towm. I think the compression test is so important. The question is do you tear it all the way down or just the heads. I think I would take the heads off and send them to a diffrent porter to check the flow on them first.

[Don D]

The compression is in line, motor health likely fine. Sumping not definenately ruled out. The tune not definenately ruled out. Linktune is no guarentee of sucess and was the map done in advanced mode, with individual cylinders probed and tuned with the AFR probe near the port?, fresh filter on the vacuum pump? Was timing changed or experimented with? These are all elements of a good tune and vitally important for mileage, driveability, and overall power and torque.
Flow sheets are not needed and the budget heads typically don't get sent from any supplier with them. Flow relationship is important! The head porter Vance in this case knows what works with his product. The customer needs to listen and not think of components as high value individually. This is about matching components that work well together. The Thunderheader is a good pipe and on on the short list that actually scavenges but that being said if the heads flow 90% Intake VS Exhaust you can be pulling fresh charge out during overlap. The 06up heads have a large exhaust port and even with the stock valve this can happen if precautions are not put in place, add a bigger exhaust valve and then this excentuates the issue.
My advice do not give up, listen to Vance. Consider bending the TH tabs, recheck for sumping, query the tuner about what I mentioned

[Don D]

Those numbers are so bad that afther .......

And what about those numbers, were they corrected for altitude?

[GoFast.....]

Those numbers are so bad that afther .......

And what about those numbers, were they corrected for altitude?

Well then forget the numbers and go out and do it the old fashion way. Go out and race someone else that has a healty 95" .My son drove by me with his WTHING like I accidently hit the kill switch instead of the troddle and my bike dynoed at 101tq. I Thought to myself I don't like that, I'm going to do something about that this winter without telling him

[FLTRI]

Until we see the graph and its curve along with AFR, there is a lot of assumptions as to the loss in power. The graph can help with diagnosis.

[Valley]

  Did you happen to check if the throttle blade is opening 100%? I get many through here that aren't adjusted correctly. Just another idea.

[metaliser]

Here again we are forgetting about the size of the injectors, he has the 8 degree as I do, my bike was actually built in 05 even though it's a 06 model, some say that the first 8 degree inj just were not anygood, others say that there fine, it's sorta funny that his bike and mine seem to be in the same boat, and my bike seems to run better if it's set rich,rather than lean, mine will ping like crazy if it's a little lean.

[hotbo]

i faxed the graphs again bob of i could post them i would the afr was straight as a arrow

i thank you all for the good info and question asking.

no not gear drive cams

well they checked for sumping on the dyno again got bout 1.5 ounces out thats not alot.

he has raced the old fashioned way, loses alot.not that funny really but to me,lol!!!hes not happy with it period i rode it last time turd

okay bending the tabs spending more money chasing #S that arent there.

okay well if i would have known ahead of time that the t-header was crap for these heads then i would not havae got my uncle to buy them!we like t-headers i think they are good performing pipes.hes not trying to win dyno shoot outs just wants a strong bike.

i have faxed the sheets to mike again if they are still to blurry im sorry.i dont know how else to post them i have no scanner



the ccc is pretty spot on in 1 of my previous post i told what it was.

help well im 5 hours away myself gofast im getting second hand data also.all i know is my uncles and the tuner think the problem will never be fixed unless the product is changed.

the tuner played with timing and some other stuff hell if i know i wasnt there just what im told,i have beat on him over the phone on things to check he says they did. oh well thats all i can do.

[GoFast.....]

i faxed the graphs again bob of i could post them i would the afr was straight as a arrow

i thank you all for the good info and question asking.

no not gear drive cams

well they checked for sumping on the dyno again got bout 1.5 ounces out thats not alot.

he has raced the old fashioned way, loses alot.not that funny really but to me,lol!!!hes not happy with it period i rode it last time turd

okay bending the tabs spending more money chasing #S that arent there.

okay well if i would have known ahead of time that the t-header was crap for these heads then i would not havae got my uncle to buy them!we like t-headers i think they are good performing pipes.hes not trying to win dyno shoot outs just wants a strong bike.

i have faxed the sheets to mike again if they are still to blurry im sorry.i dont know how else to post them i have no scanner



the ccc is pretty spot on in 1 of my previous post i told what it was.

help well im 5 hours away myself gofast im getting second hand data also.all i know is my uncles and the tuner think the problem will never be fixed unless the product is changed.

the tuner played with timing and some other stuff hell if i know i wasnt there just what im told,i have beat on him over the phone on things to check he says they did. oh well thats all i can do.

The thunder header is a great pipe and I just got done a couple of month

[FLTRI]

Since the AFR is straight as an arrow, what does the power do after 4000prms? Does it continue to climb, allbeit slowly, or does it take a dive?

[GoFast.....]

Did the dyno guy try to increase the back pressure with the tabs in the thunder header? 

no he did not.it has a slight torque dip in the middle.i told my uncle to play with this but they felt no need to after the final numbers

Fax it to me and I'LL POST IT 303-470-2823

[Bakon]

here is his bike

2006 deuce 95 inch
dan vance 1.90 ported heads
kb-flat tops
9.8-1
tw37bs cams
2-1 t-header
power commander
kuryakn high five a/c

Not alot there. A .510 lift cam, (not sure was bs on the end is) with pistons down the hole. What I am getting at is this is no radical build.

I had a .060 quench and when tightened to .035 picked up 8 hp and about the same torque. But I also went from .585 lift to .650 on the cam.

The numbers are low for internet, but maybe the numbers would be low anyways. What I'm saying is I have been watching guys post 100hp with .510 lift cams for years, but never saw a dyno in Pittsburgh give the same results. My bike consistently picked up 4 hp when run at a beach rally.

So lets say 4hp for area dynos being different, and 5 hp for the quench being off. Would he be happy then? Probably not, said bike was a dog, right? Well send heads back to be exchanged or refunded.

By not breathing does he mean it runs out a high rpm? Probably head/cam combo. Need air to pull away at the high end. Not being smart, but what numbers did he expect, mid 90's, 100, 105+? Its a 95 with stock reworked valves and a low lift cam set below 10:1 compression. I would think 95hp is reasonable.

[ederdelyi]

hotbo,
i know that you have checked the cam timing ... i'm assuming that means you verified the index marks line up, but have you actually degreed the cams? It would not be the first time that the lobe centers or the index marks are *wrong*!

No slam on any vendor intended ... $hit happens :>) I've caught this on more than a couple of cams. It could certainly account for the symptoms you've been experiencing. If this turns out to be the case Andrews will make good on the cams with no problems, IME.

[skyhook]

could it be a stingy or improperly calibrated dyno?...could it be that 50% of the dyno charts we see are inflated?...does it run good?...just sold wife's bike 96" street port heads 37 cam 9.8 comp fatcat 90/95 but compared to my 110 dyna it felt like a dog...you're describing a mild build on a machine that has more in common with a john deere than anything else sold today...jmho and I'm sure someone thinks it stinks!

[ederdelyi]

>>jmho and I'm sure someone thinks it stinks!<<

And so what if they do? It's an open forum and *all constructive* comments should be welcomed.

To tell the truth, I tend to stay out of these types of threads as they can turn into major peeing contests and get really ugly in a heartbeat. I break my own rules now and then ... and usually end up kicking myself for doing so! Ah well, ain't the Internet great? :>)

[ICANTD55]

Glad to see you posting Ed..

[Billy]

I sent a pair of KB 95" flat tops back to them about 6 months ago that measured .024" down the hole. I wonder if you got them.

[hotbo]

I sent a pair of KB 95" flat tops back to them about 6 months ago that measured .024" down the hole. I wonder if you got them.

no they weren't that  far,lol

no pissing contest here

okay the dyno graph imo are just a tuning tool,my uncle if the bike hauled ass would be happy but it doesnt.


on the graph it climbs okay till 5,000 rpm not a steep climb but okay.gofast ill fax them to ya,thanks travis


hell the cams might need to be degreed might be off ive had them off in auto engines ive built .

[mayor]

Travis, 
I just checked the faxes you sent me, no go again.  Try Barry tomorrow to see if he has better luck.  I still have your uncles last on if you want that posted to compare?

Mike

[Faast Ed]

I thought I remember some talk about the 37's having some changes done to them a while back (earlier or later intake close).

Reaching for straws here,....

[mayor]

yep Ed, was a 42 degree intake close.  The ccp seems to be inline with the 38 degree close though. 

[Don D]

Let's not forget the tw26 cams that guys were getting extraordinary compression readings from that were installed properly. When checked the cams were defective.

[dsvracer]

Dan vance here again. Travis you have been fun to work with. I understand your position completely so trust me when I say lets make your uncle very happy. PLEASE put the heads in a box and send them back to me. I will send you a set of stock untouched heads with low miles and a full refund for what you paid me for them. I am sure this is the best solution to this issue as everybody gets what they want. 

[mayor]

Hi Guys,
I am dan vance, the porter of these heads. I have a money back guarantee, if you are not satisfied with my heads you can return them for a full refund,
"NO QUESTIONS ASKED".  I have offered this man a custom map for my motor combinations, but he will not even try it. I have also told him that my performance kits do not work well with big open exhaust like the thunder header, still no co-operation.  Put the heads in a box and return to me for a full refund. I know it's not the heads as I have well over 100 bikes out there with over 100 torque and hp. But if this man is not happy please send them back.  dan vance

I think that the above statements speak for themselves Dan.    You can't do better to ensure customers are satisfied than a "no questions asked full refund".  

I'm going to throw out another new idea based on a personal experience I had earlier this year with the KB pistons.  I had a set of KB 95" pistons that were undersized (bore).  The pistons were allowing excessive blow-by around the rings and the bike was a real dog.  I also had a somewhat noticeable piston slap due to this.  how does the engine sound? was piston fit checked?

[skyhook]

ederdelyi,
hope ya didn't think I was directing my comments at ya...of all the folks I know on the net, you're...well ya know

[roadglide65]

Dan vance here again. Travis you have been fun to work with. I understand your position completely so trust me when I say lets make your uncle very happy. PLEASE put the heads in a box and send them back to me. I will send you a set of stock untouched heads with low miles and a full refund for what you paid me for them. I am sure this is the best solution to this issue as everybody gets what they want. 

After reading this thread you cant ask for more than that. Way to go and step up to the plate to make the customer happy

[ederdelyi]

skyhook,
No worries, I didn't think that at all.

All: My impression was that Mr. Vance has been acting in a standup manner the whole time even though I doubt  (and he most likely does as well) that the heads are the problem. Stuff like this just happens sometimes ... even to the best in the business. It would serve folks well to remember how the problem was resolved and not dwell on the problem itself ... know what I mean, Vern? :>)

It would not surprise me that when Mr. Vance gets the heads back and he did happen to find a problem with the heads  that would explain what was taking place here that he would own up to it ... I would it it were me.

[Don D]

I would agree totally ED
Been there before

[sean fxd]

<<Dan vance here again. Travis you have been fun to work with. I understand your position completely so trust me when I say lets make your uncle very happy. PLEASE put the heads in a box and send them back to me. I will send you a set of stock untouched heads with low miles and a full refund for what you paid me for them. I am sure this is the best solution to this issue as everybody gets what they want.>>

Like the other guys said....wow that is stand-up big time Mr. Vance.       

Sean

[sean fxd]

<<       Did you happen to check if the throttle blade is opening 100%? I get many through here that aren't adjusted correctly. Just another idea.>>


This is one that would explain a lot.  Have you checked this to make sure?  Sometimes the simplest things.

Sean

[se]

Talk to your uncle  Vance is going above and beyond take him up on his offer. you cannot ask for anything more. Very few guys and i mean very few would offer this.

[Faast Ed]

.... my performance kits do not work well with big open exhaust like the thunder header,....

May I ask what size exhaust valves are in these heads? Must be a reason they like restriction (could be handy for a guy who wants a quieter bike).

[Don D]

IMO the 06up heads are very sensitive to the pipe and restriction is part of the story and does play in but more importantly scavenging, or lack of that. This does not show up until a cam with overlap is used (stock cams have almost zero). Add a larger exhaust valve and do some porting to the exhaust side of the late head and it isn't hard to exceed the flow of the intake. Doesn't play well with most cams.
BTW not anything bad to say about Vance, I think he a is good guy and knows his stuff.

[Faast Ed]

Add a larger exhaust valve and do some porting to the exhaust side of the late head and it isn't hard to exceed the flow of the intake. Doesn't play well with most cams.

That is pretty much why I asked about his exhaust valve size. It seems realistically possible that this is indeed where some of the lost power went.
(Unless of course he has stock size valves in the exhaust ports.) Then my point is moot.

If it turns out that he has big exhaust valves, maybe he should try a more restrictive pipe before ripping the heads off.

I am very well aware how good of a reputation those pipes have, but has anyone used them with these particular heads?
The porter recommends against them.  People are always posting "Listen to your porter".
(PLease don't take that to mean anything against you Hotbo.)  Those pipes are famous and it would be hard to believe that they wouldn't be great on ANY build.

[Sonny S.]

I can't answer for THOSE particular heads but I have spoke with Dan Vance in the past about head work, and he would typically use a 1.90 int. and stock exhaust valve for that build.

I'm sure he will chime in.

[ederdelyi]

>>I can't answer for THOSE particular heads but I have spoke with Dan Vance in the past about head work, and he would typically use a 1.90 int. and stock exhaust valve for that build.<<

That's correct. His standard Stage2 TC heads with a 1.9 intake use a stock exh. valve.

Just a suggestion guys: LET IT GO! 

[GoFast.....]

>>I can't answer for THOSE particular heads but I have spoke with Dan Vance in the past about head work, and he would typically use a 1.90 int. and stock exhaust valve for that build.<<

That's correct. His standard Stage2 TC heads with a 1.9 intake use a stock exh. valve.

Just a suggestion guys: LET IT GO! 

I agree Ed,  Dan  you da man for standing by your product and it may not even be the heads

[hotbo]

it is let go :horse:i have told my uncle what he is willing to do,im out of the middle, :wink:i think dan is a great guy and is willing to stand behind his product good for him,i have no hard feelings whatsoever other than me being in the middle.thanks guys

[Faast Ed]

.....it is let go :horse:i have....

If you put spaces before and after the  the icon will apear in you post as opposed to the words.

"In the middle", not a fun place to be!